﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
You can read a little about CTR's take on this issue here:
https://www.nalandatranslation.org/choosing-the-right-word/rikpa/

As far as I know, CTR has been the only terton to date to make a thorough study of English vocabulary, so I tend to regard his input quite highly.


Malcolm wrote:
Their Post-Trungpa decision to translate rig pa as awareness is a mistake. Not a big fan of insight, but it is better than awareness, since prajñā and vidyā are synoyms in Dzogchen texts. Valby uses 'intelligence," but not a big fan of that gloss either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


michaelb said:
Yes, of course, rigpa refers to knowledge, but does being inaccurate on this point make the content of his teaching is wrong?

Malcolm wrote:
It means he is less effective at communicating his knowledge.


michaelb said:
How much does word choice really matter if the way it is explained and demonstrated are accurate?

Malcolm wrote:
How can anything be explained accurately if the words and meanings do not correspond? Dzogchen tantras of all classes spend an inordinate amount of time on language, meaning, and words.


michaelb said:
I fail to see how Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche's teaching would be improved by changing awareness to knowledge. Indeed, such a change may lead to further confusion. Knowledge of what, like book knownedge, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge of the essence, as in the citation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


TaTa said:
Do you think hes distintion between normal awareness, meditative awareness and pure awareness is helpfull? Or maybe someone like alan wallace with pristine awareness? Or is it the word awareness that you consider flawed too use in this context?

Malcolm wrote:
Wallace translates ye shes as "pristine awareness." This is fine, however I prefer "pristine consciousness." But there is no major difference. When awareness is used for the word " shes pa ", this ok, and it also how I use the term depending on context.

But using the term awareness for rig pa is, as you put it, too flawed and leads to great misunderstanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
I'd actually also be interested in people's views on how Harris talks about dzogchen in "waking up." I quite liked it and wondered what other people thought.

Malcolm wrote:
His presentation is trite, superficial, and more importantly, going the wrong way. If someone thinks that Dzogchen is talking about rig pa as "awareness," they have made a big mistake right in the beginning. It is a bit sad that this term, awareness, has become a gloss for the term rig pa. It is wholly inaccurate and misleading.

michaelb said:
Thanks for the feedback. I think there is definitely a simplification in his presentation but I'd be interested if you explained his big mistake more fully. His emphasis on "awareness" seems similar to other teachers like Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, for example.

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
MIgyur Rinpoche is not a native speaker. He relies on translators he trusts. However, this is not a criteria for accuracy. When the word rig pa is examined in its context in Dzogchen texts, there is really no way that anyone can justify the gloss "awareness" in a real sense. As a noun, it means "knowledge"; as a verb, it means "to know."

For example, the commentary on the Tantra Without Syllables clarifies this point precisely:
Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowing (vidyā) as a factor of consciousness, 5) sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 6) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all that is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
DGA said:
Congratulations, Malcolm, on this publication.  I hope it finds its audience.  I'm glad Wisdom is getting behind these projects.

Meanwhile...

Malcolm wrote:
The first division includes the three essential tantras: the Self-Arisen Vidyā, the Self-Liberated Vidyā, and the Without Syllables. If one knows these three, one will have command over the general meaning of the tantras, like a king who has command over his subjects.
-- Longchenpa.

DGA said:
I'm ignorant of these texts (for now).  The upcoming volume will contain translations of the first two tantras, correct?  Will the third one, Without Syllables, also find print in English?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after the first two, and with its complete commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The first division includes the three essential tantras: the Self-Arisen Vidyā, the Self-Liberated Vidyā, and the Without Syllables. If one knows these three, one will have command over the general meaning of the tantras, like a king who has command over his subjects.
-- Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Anonymous X said:
What was I thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
I have that reaction to virtually all of your posts in the Dzogchen forum, "What is this guy thinking?"

Anonymous X said:
Somehow, you and I are on two different wave lengths. Why do you assume yours is the better?

Malcolm wrote:
Not better, just far more informed about the subject matter at hand, the teaching of the Great Perfection.

For example, I don't know anything about Chan/Zen, apart from the polemics about it found in early Dzogchen commentaries which date from the late 9th century. So I rarely venture into the Zen forums because I am not really qualified to talk about Chan. All I am qualified to do with respect to Chan and Zen is to ask questions, when they occur to me to ask them, as well as relate what early Tibetan Dzogchen masters thought about the Chan tradition as it existed in Tibet in the late 8th century. I expect that people who have no background in Dzogchen teachings to exercise the same respect when they visit these boards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


michaelb said:
I'd actually also be interested in people's views on how Harris talks about dzogchen in "waking up." I quite liked it and wondered what other people thought.

Malcolm wrote:
His presentation is trite, superficial, and more importantly, going the wrong way. If someone thinks that Dzogchen is talking about rig pa as "awareness," they have made a big mistake right in the beginning. It is a bit sad that this term, awareness, has become a gloss for the term rig pa. It is wholly inaccurate and misleading.

Anonymous X said:
Perhaps you can lead us back to the correct view of it?

Malcolm wrote:
You can read my introduction in Buddhahood in this Life, Wisdom, 2016, where I discuss the term rig pa and other important terms in the system of Dzogchen. There are some translators who persist in using the gloss "awareness" for rig pa; but there has been a strong movement among Dzogchen translators for leaving the term rig pa either untranslated, or as in my case, back-translating it into Sanskrit, vidyā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Anonymous X said:
What was I thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
I have that reaction to virtually all of your posts in the Dzogchen forum, "What is this guy thinking?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Same question. What has this done for you? Can we assume that you do things for a result?

Vasana said:
Best not to assume anything. If you understood the context of these teachings and how the base, path & fruit of Dzogchen & Mahamudra is presented, you probably wouldn't feel the need to ask those questions in the first place. Dzogchen begins with direct introduction, then you come to confidence about what was introduced through applying various means, then the rest of the path is simply continuing in that state, where thoughts are self-arisen and self-liberated.

Anonymous X said:
I am asking a straight forward question. What has this practice done for you? Has discursive thinking stopped? Has the subject/object dichotomy been resolved? Has there been any transformative experience or understanding that is now irreversible and functional? This being in contrast with philosophical or dialectical constructs. Is there a mind or no-mind, or neither a mind or a no-mind? Maybe something else? Some other description that is bulletproof in your own being? I'm not being glib.

Malcolm wrote:
You have completely missed the side of the barn with your question due to your clear unfamiliarity with the subject matter (Atiyoga).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


michaelb said:
I'd actually also be interested in people's views on how Harris talks about dzogchen in "waking up." I quite liked it and wondered what other people thought.

Malcolm wrote:
His presentation is trite, superficial, and more importantly, going the wrong way. If someone thinks that Dzogchen is talking about rig pa as "awareness," they have made a big mistake right in the beginning. It is a bit sad that this term, awareness, has become a gloss for the term rig pa. It is wholly inaccurate and misleading.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Marc said:
As far I as can tell, Direct Introduction renders the tibetan ngo sprod (pronounced "ngotrö"), where one is introduced to Rigpa in its "nakedness".

Malcolm wrote:
"Direct introduction" is ChNN's translation of rang ngo thag tu sprad, which could otherwise be translated as "directly encountering one's own state." This is the first phrase of the famous three phrases of Garab Dorje.


Marc said:
Whereas the rig pa'i rtsal dbang (pronounced "rigpé tsel wang"), is the Empowerment (wang) of Rigpa's Expressive Power / Dynamic Display (Tsal).

Before reading Malcolm comments, I would have said that the rig pa'i rtsal dbang is the gateway to the practice of Thögal, while rigpa'i ngo sprod is the gateway to Dzogchen in general, and Trekchö more specifically.
But apparently, this is an oversimplication / generalization...

Malcolm wrote:
The term rig pa'i rtsal dbang, (empowerment of the potential of vidyā) is used in many contexts — for example, there are the eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs of the so called mind series; the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition of Avalokiteśvara from the Mani Kabum is called the empowerment of the potential of vidyā, where it is also noted that it forms the root of all other empowerments.

ChNN has stated many times that "direct introduction" is an empowerment of the potential of vidyā. Thus, I use them interchangeably.

makewhisper said:
Would you say that śamatha is vital to recognition during the direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Normally, during the course of a direct introduction, the master will ask people to remain in a calm, undistracted state. I am under the impression from one of Tulku Urgyen's students that he was impressed with the śamatha of the some Vipassana people who became his students and thought it was a great preparation for Dzogchen practice. The serious practice of the mind series teachings in Santi Mahā Sangha requires the development of śamatha. And in the 21 semzins of the intimate instruction series, there are methods for developing śamatha very quickly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
boda said:
Well, no.

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Try again, anyone?

Malcolm wrote:
Well yes, just watch his silly bullshit on Bill Maher's show.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
ratna said:
Fantastic news!

Malcolm wrote:
You will be in the bibliography again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


boda said:
Can you in any way substantiate the claim that Harris is massively confused emotionally and intellectually?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is his chauvinism against Islam for one...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Mahasiddha Geshe Lama Konchog
Content:
seraphim said:
A very close dharma brother of mine, who was one of Geshe Konchog's close students, mentioned that he is a Dzogchen Longde practitioner.

ZenChanChan said:
But he was a Gelugpa monk?According to his biography his main practice was Vajrayogini.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 1:06 AM
Title: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dear Friends:

It is my pleasure to announce that Wisdom Publications and Zangthal Editions will collaborate in bringing out the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra ( rig pa rang shar ) and the Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantr a ( rig pa rang grol ) as the Seventeen Tantras: Volume 1 & 2. The first edition of this two volume set will be hardbound, in a clothbound slip case. Publication of these two translations are presently scheduled for late summer/early fall, 2018. Together with an introductory essay with text critical overview of the history and origins of the Seventeen Tantras as related in the Vima Nyinthig, index, glossary, etc., to be included in vol. 2, I expect the page count to be somewhere around 900 pages all totaled.

One thing people should understand is that with respect to the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, according to Chetsun Sengge Wangchuk, possession of the text itself is permission to read it. So while I encourage readers who are interested to have Dzogchen transmission, there is no absolute need to have the lung for this text, though of course it is also good in you can obtain the lung.

I will keep you posted with updates here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
TaTa said:
can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

Malcolm wrote:
Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?

TaTa said:
Why one is gradual and the other not. Is it because one has DI and the other no?


Malcolm wrote:
They both depend on a kind of introduction. However, the four samadhis are based on the experience of the rig pa'i rtsal dbang, while the four yogas are introduced in a gradual process of pointing out.

That said, it is vital to both approaches to discover the experience of śamatha in the beginning. Without that experience, there are no four contemplations nor four yogas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Mahasiddha Geshe Lama Konchog
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Fascinating stuff. I wonder if anyone will have them scientifically analyzed.

I was always under the impression that Dipankara Buddha was the one before Sakyamuni. In the article it says Kasyapa Buddha. Never heard this before.

Malcolm wrote:
Dipamkara Buddha was the Buddha from whom Śakyamuni received his prediction eons ago in the last major eon. In this eon, the Fortunate Eon, there are six buddhas prior to Śakyamuni (for a total of 1001). The Theravadins preserve an account of 27 buddhas prior to the present one.

pael said:
What are names of those 1001 buddhas? Where I can find names of them?

Malcolm wrote:
You can find the names of these buddhas in the Bhadrakalpa Sūtra, translated as the Fortunate Eon, Dharma Publishing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Mahasiddha Geshe Lama Konchog
Content:
ZenChanChan said:
From what I read,he was recognized by the Dalai Lama to be a greatly high realized yogi.He left behind a myriad of five colored,gem-like relics.Many pictures of his relics can be found.

Lama Zopa Rinpoche also said that the five coloured relics show that he has achieved the five wisdoms of Buddha (complete enlightenment).

According to his attendant Tenzin Zopa,lama Konchog was appeared so humble and so simple that most people,even his close attendant Tenzin Zopa,didn't realize he was someone as special as he was and no one expected relics at all.

There is also an article of Vicky McKenzie on Tricycle about the study of Lama Konchog relics called Jeweled Demise https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09d-8OZewcyb2pqa0FkN25Nd0k/view

Aside from the movie "Unmistaken Child",does anyone personally know him?

Anonymous X said:
Fascinating stuff. I wonder if anyone will have them scientifically analyzed.

I was always under the impression that Dipankara Buddha was the one before Sakyamuni. In the article it says Kasyapa Buddha. Never heard this before.

Malcolm wrote:
Dipamkara Buddha was the Buddha from whom Śakyamuni received his prediction eons ago in the last major eon. In this eon, the Fortunate Eon, there are six buddhas prior to Śakyamuni (for a total of 1001). The Theravadins preserve an account of 27 buddhas prior to the present one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
TaTa said:
Sooo whats the difference?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter are gradual, the former are not.

TaTa said:
can i ask you to elaborate? Im reading on the subject but i cant seem to grasp it.

Malcolm wrote:
Which subject. The four ting nge 'dzins?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 11:16 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
TaTa said:
Sooo whats the difference?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter are gradual, the former are not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 10:30 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Oh yes? Why don't you tell me what my opinions are?

Malcolm wrote:
I will when I see one. But, for example, you are clearly critical of the idea that Dzogchen does not depend on the lower vehicles. You have also expressed admiration for a number of nonbuddhist teachers, etc. It is not hard to tell that you are of a perennialist persuasion. You are definitely a fanboy of Khyentse, Trungpa, etc., but not so much of ChNN, etc.

You must think we are very stupid if you imagine we have not got your number years ago. And sadly, you add virtually nothing of value to any discussions. Sometimes, however, you are amusing— in a sad, class clown kind of way.

TaTa said:
People here should virtually chill more

Malcolm wrote:
He asked.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Friend, this is all meta-discussion. All I will say is that it is probably for the best that I do not generally state my opinions.

Malcolm wrote:
You telegraph your opinions constantly. In fact, you are one of the most unsubtle posters here.

dzogchungpa said:
Oh yes? Why don't you tell me what my opinions are?

Malcolm wrote:
I will when I see one. But, for example, you are clearly critical of the idea that Dzogchen does not depend on the lower vehicles. You have also expressed admiration for a number of nonbuddhist teachers, etc. It is not hard to tell that you are of a perennialist persuasion. You are definitely a fanboy of Khyentse, Trungpa, etc., but not so much of ChNN, etc.

You must think we are very stupid if you imagine we have not got your number years ago. And sadly, you add virtually nothing of value to any discussions. Sometimes, however, you are amusing— in a sad, class clown kind of way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Actually, I do really care but since I am anonymous, apparently my input is regarded by some with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.

Finney said:
I personally don't care that you're anonymous. However, I do wish that now and then your "input" would be more than just pokes and feints. Presumably you have opinions, why not just come right out and say them? You're obviously not bashful about posting, why not post something of substance?

dzogchungpa said:
Friend, this is all meta-discussion. All I will say is that it is probably for the best that I do not generally state my opinions.

Malcolm wrote:
You telegraph your opinions constantly. In fact, you are one of the most unsubtle posters here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Webcasts aren't particularly intimate, are they?

RikudouSennin said:
Of course they are. To hear the instructions is key. And to listen without the three faults.
By listening well to the dharma, the fault of the toxic container is dispelled. By listening attentively, the fault of an upside-down container is dispelled. And by bearing the teachings in mind, the fault of a leaky container is remedied.

All six paramitas are complete in listening to the dharma.

dzogchungpa said:
Dude, the six paramitas are, like, totally lower yana.

Malcolm wrote:
Chapter 24 in the Marvelous Mind that Realizes Purity states:

Naturally completing the ten perfections,
the mind that realizes purity is marvelous!
This marvelous mind that realizes purity
is the perfection of all Dharmas,
it is the treasury of all Dharmas, 
it is the inexhaustible treasury,
it is full buddhahood as unsurpassed awakening,
this tathāgata, samyaksambuddha arises from this perfection of wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
HandsomeMonkeyking said:
And where does one get some basic training in Tibetan Medicine?

What should one read? Might there be someone in Merigar?


Malcolm wrote:
Birth, Life and Death by CHNN is a good start.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Am I not talking and quoting from Buddhist masters and Sutras?

Malcolm wrote:
You are quoting sūtras and masters from the vehicles of cause and result. The vehicles of cause and result are just fine, much better than the mundane vehicles of the tirthikas.

This specific subforum however is devoted to the vehicle that is beyond cause and result, Atiyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
When I read about rigpa, it could be the same as intrinsic awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, so you actually do have no clue what you are talking about. Therefore as you say, "[It] is not to say that there is no usefulness for the intellectual, but it cannot be relied on for real understanding."

Anonymous X said:
I've already been cast as a heretic, by the brahmins of this group.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not a heretic, you are someone spouting off about Zen in a Dzogchen forum since in fact you are unfamiliar with the teachings of the Great Perfection.

Dzogchen teachings are something very precise, very specific. You cannot understand Dzogchen by reading some books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
of course direct introduction. what i mean is, that we are not all the higest capacity, (chigcharwa? <- if i remember correctly),  so after direct introduction, if we even suceed to recognize anything, we need to sustain this recognition by some method, right? if we havent recognized anything, then we need another method.

Malcolm wrote:
The method is applying the method of direct introduction for ourselves, over and over again, until we recognize that nature and have confidence in it.

Tongnyid Dorje said:
and exactly that is what is meant by doing practice.

Malcolm wrote:
You said we need "another method." There is only one real method in Dzogchen teachings — direct introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
[

I'm afraid you might be confused about this. If this were really the case, that obstacles are identical to the true nature, you would not be here talking about this kind of thing. That is not the case except in some abstract dream that one could concoct from all this 'dharma' talk. Phenomenon, your experience, is unreal, it is empty and void. Mind's nature is Knowing.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a very trivial nature of the mind. It does not go beyond cittamatra.

Anonymous X said:
Yogacara concepts are merely a gate. No one is stopping there, but you have to begin somewhere. Knowing is not some trivial nature. It is not the knowing of something.

Malcolm wrote:
You stopped there, in your post.

Anyway, define your terms. What is "knowing?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
of course direct introduction. what i mean is, that we are not all the higest capacity, (chigcharwa? <- if i remember correctly),  so after direct introduction, if we even suceed to recognize anything, we need to sustain this recognition by some method, right? if we havent recognized anything, then we need another method.

Malcolm wrote:
The method is applying the method of direct introduction for ourselves, over and over again, until we recognize that nature and have confidence in it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
First you have to understand that there are four kinds of generosity. All four can be practiced today.

pael said:
How they can be practiced today?


Malcolm wrote:
The four gifts are things such as food, and other kinds of material things; giving protection; giving writing implements and paper; and finally, giving Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
Can you tell where it does not fit?  I was under the impression that all existence is nothing other Dzogchen, that there is nothing seperate to Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but there is a difference between recognizing that and not recognizing that. The point that Dzogchen tantras consistently make is that practicing the two stages of creation and completion are at best an indirect means of coming to that recognition, and at worst a total deviation from the meaning of the Great Perfection. Rongzom points out that one should not discriminate between mantra or sūtra practice when it comes to the indirect approach. Recognition is the important point in Dzogchen, nothing else.

Tongnyid Dorje said:
nice, but if you dont have method/practice how to recognize it, you will not recognize anything.



Malcolm wrote:
The method is direct introduction. As it is said in the Tantra Without Syllables, "The dharmakāya is encountered in the intimate instructions."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
Hello all,

Here we go, first question is ¿how to practice generosity in modern societ?, and ¿what happens in -side of- us when we try to give what we like?, to me this are interesting questions and would like to know what you all think and learn from the different kind of views and experiences.

best regards


Malcolm wrote:
First you have to understand that there are four kinds of generosity. All four can be practiced today. The supreme generosity is of course the gift of the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 8:12 PM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Jyotish said:
So Malcolm,  are the points of view you present in this topic or in other threads a standard view in  Tibetan medical studies?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
When you are visualizing yourself as a deity with a hollow body made of light, there is no need to adhere to some anatomically correct idea of the nadis and so on. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner doing Yantra Yoga, for example, you visualize your ordinary body as a light form. Same principle applies.

Mantrik said:
For the practice of the Purification of the 6 Lokas as well?

Malcolm wrote:
yes


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?
Content:
Tenma said:
Okay, I've read that Dorje Yudronma should be realized by now and would either be enlightened or a high bodhisattva.  However, from other teachings, I've found that she is not to be practiced for common students with empowerment.  If she is enlightened, wouldn't it be safe to recite her mantra?  Although I'm still confused on her visualization, would it be alright to do her practice?  as she is also a form of Tingi Shalzangma, a retinue of unenlightened Tseringma and enlightened Palden Lhamo, I am not too sure if she is enlightened or not and safe or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you a student of ChNN?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 7:39 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
[

I'm afraid you might be confused about this. If this were really the case, that obstacles are identical to the true nature, you would not be here talking about this kind of thing. That is not the case except in some abstract dream that one could concoct from all this 'dharma' talk. Phenomenon, your experience, is unreal, it is empty and void. Mind's nature is Knowing.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a very trivial nature of the mind. It does not go beyond cittamatra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


Anonymous X said:
You forgot, there is also no Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is. However, I do not see anything in your posts reflective of any actual understanding of the subject. You have already disqualified yourself as capable of judging English translations of Dzogchen texts. You do not sound like a person who has ever studied Dzogchen with a Dzogchen master. You sound like an all-oner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


Grigoris said:
Seriously though: I believe you and Crazy Wisdom are selling your previous teachers and practice short by not acknowledging the fact that your past practice paid off by generating the merit necessary for you to meet your precious gurus.  Instead of denigrating what were quite possibly the means by which you arrived at your current state/position/realisation, you should be extraordinarily grateful.  You should not be trying so hard to dissuade others are you may actually be encouraging them to abandon the only means they currently have at hand, to reach the point that you are currently at.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not dissuading anyone from anything. People are free. If they wish to practice the two stages, let them. I am encouraging people who are interested in Dzogchen teachings to understand that Dzogchen is an independent path, which does not depend on the vehicles of cause and result.

It may be the case that in modern Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen has become mixed with anuyoga teachings, especially at the level of empowerments. For example, the Longchen Nyinthig is mostly deity practices. The Dzogchen section of it is very short, only a few very short texts (Yeshe Lama is not part of the Longchen Nyinthig, though it is included in the supporting text material).

Further, it is a very common practice to include the empowerment of the potential of vidyā ( rig pa'i rtsal dbang ) within a standard deity yoga empowerment (sometimes called "the fifth empowerment") or to include that in the fourth empowerment. But Dzogchen also has it own independent empowerments which are not based on any kind of deity yoga path.

You are continuing to talk about empowerments like Troma Nagmo and Namchak Putri which are mixed cycles:

Grigoris said:
I know that, but I am. I am continuing to explain my point.

Malcolm wrote:
"Mixed" means that they introduce a yidam as part of the path, they are more gradual cycles. No one disputes that people attain rainbow body from practicing such cycles. Of course they do, they contain the main practices of Dzogchen, trekchöd and thögal.

For example, Vajravārāhī is an important part of the Gongpa Zangthal. There is also a Shitro. It is said there that Vārāhī is present for people of intermediate capacity.  The same can be said of the Khandro Nyinthig.  The retreats of the deities of these cycles are one week, not months and years.

But this is not what CW and I are talking about. We are talking about Dzogchen as it is presented within the Dzogchen tantras themselves and their related instructions such as the Vima Nyinthig, which have zero deity yoga practices as part of the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
So... having realized one's nature as the prerequisite one the engages in the guru's upadesha until the four visions  appear on their own. To do that one has to remain speechless as a mute, etc.

Grigoris said:
Different strokes for different folks...  If one relaised the nature of the deity during the empowerment then, theoretically, the sadhana would be the means by which one is reminded of this realisation and the repitition would be the means by which it is stabilised.


Malcolm wrote:
CW is not talking about empowerments which introduce one to this or that yidam as a path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
They may get in the way before recognition, theoretically though, after recognition, there ain't that much that can really get in the way.

Malcolm wrote:
Greg, you do not know what you are talking about here. I am not saying this to put you down. I am saying this because you lack instructions.

You appear to believe that Dzogchen is gussied up Mahāmudra. It isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
A white guy in the sky with long hair and a bushy beard.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought as much.

Grigoris said:
Well you, being humorless, thought wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Ever heard of sarcasm?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
I don't disagree.  But they both have the same source.

This is the central teaching that is repeated continuously in the Kungyed Gyalpo:  everything, EVERYTHING, has a single source.  ONE SOURCE.

Malcolm wrote:
What is this "one source?"

Grigoris said:
A white guy in the sky with long hair and a bushy beard.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought as much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Mantrik said:
Surely, the point is not whether they may be integrated into a Dzogchen path, or are an obstruction to it - you know that applies to any daily activity and that sadhanas are no different from the perspective of integration.  The issue you were both discussing is whether any of them is essential to recognition of the state and to the Dzogchen path.

Grigoris said:
The only thing that is essential to the recogntion of the state is the state itself and the introduction to the state by the guru.  No doubt about this.  After the recognition of the state everything becomes the dzogchen path.

Malcolm wrote:
Sustaining that recognition is the path, nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
IWith this view you are putting ignorance on the same level as Dzogchen and setting them up as polar opposites.  That seems to me to be a fail of monumental proportions.

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa and ma rig pa are opposites. Neither are the state of Dzogchen (the basis), per se.

Grigoris said:
I don't disagree.  But they both have the same source.

This is the central teaching that is repeated continuously in the Kungyed Gyalpo:  everything, EVERYTHING, has a single source.  ONE SOURCE.

Malcolm wrote:
What is this "one source?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Cause and effect, samsara and nirvana arise from ignorance of our own state. There is neither samsara nor nirvana in the state of Dzogchen.

Grigoris said:
IWith this view you are putting ignorance on the same level as Dzogchen and setting them up as polar opposites.  That seems to me to be a fail of monumental proportions.

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa and ma rig pa are opposites. Neither are the state of Dzogchen (the basis), per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Grigoris said:
Would you say that the Tibetan Medicine view and use of chakra (which seems to be more static), is different to the spiritual/yogic view and use of chakras?


Malcolm wrote:
These things are all connected with the formation of the body after conception. Thus, there is no way to separate them. For example, there is a vast so called "sgeg sel" literature which are yogic means of removing illness based on an understanding of the vāyus, nāḍīs and so on of the body.

Grigoris said:
Fair enough.  How would you then explain the variety of visualisations of the chakras which is tied to specific deities and their mandala where the number of chakra, their placement, their colour etc... differs from yidam to yidam?

Malcolm wrote:
When you are visualizing yourself as a deity with a hollow body made of light, there is no need to adhere to some anatomically correct idea of the nadis and so on. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner doing Yantra Yoga, for example, you visualize your ordinary body as a light form. Same principle applies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
So, what is the problem? If there is nothing separate, there is no one to practice anything. The questions you are bringing up happen when you don't live like this.


Malcolm wrote:
The state of dzogchen is not brahmin, etc. It is personal and individual.

Grigoris said:
So now the nature of existence is personalised and variegated...

"My Dzogchen is bigger than your Dzogchen!"


Malcolm wrote:
The state of dzogchen is to persons what heat is to fire. All fires are hot, but the heat of one fire is not the heat of another fire. However, one partial aspect of the basis is that it is variegated. Asserting that the basis is only variegated, however, is a defective proposition. There are five other defective propositions about the basis, the state of dzogchen, which are defective as well. The only non-defective proposition about the state of dzogchen is that it is originally pure, ka dag.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
Again:  Is effort something other than Dzogchen?  Is practice something other than minds enlightened nature?' Is cause and effect something other than Dzogchen?  Etc...

Malcolm wrote:
If you think you need effort and practice to realize Dzogchen, then you are deviating from the meaning of Dzogchen. There is no cause and effect in the state of Dzogchen. This could not be more clear in the All-Creating King:

Oh mahasattva, listen!
this is the explanation for doubts about the purpose.
In countless past eons, 
since fortunate Atiyogins
with devotion to me, All-Creating Bodhi,
do not meditate a view, do not protect samayas,
do not engage in activities, do not progress on a path, 
do not train on stages, do not have cause and result, 
do not have relative and ultimate,
perceive there is nothing to meditate or accomplish, 
do not generate altruistic intentions, nor use antidotes, 
that perception of the nature of the all-creating mind
is the explanation of the purpose.
That said, if someone likes doing sadhanas, they are free.

Grigoris said:
I'm not talking about what is needed or what is not, I am asking if you believe that cause and effect are separate to the nature of mind (Dzogchen/Mahamudra).  I am asking if you believe there is something in phenomenal experience or existence that is not born of the nature of mind (Dzogchen/Mahamudra).

You seem to be saying that Dzogchen is separate to samsara.

Malcolm wrote:
Cause and effect, samsara and nirvana arise from ignorance of our own state. There is neither samsara nor nirvana in the state of Dzogchen. As the Tantra of the King of the Infinite Great Dimension states:
Since there is neither before and after, there is no cause and result. 
Since there is no cause and result, there is no samsara and nirvana. 
Since there is no samsara and nirvana, there is no awakening. 
Those who assert a result
turn their backs upon the true meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


Vasana said:
I don't personally know what the written Dzogchen perspective on Zen is....

Malcolm wrote:
Based on definitive sūtras, inferior to Mahāyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
good, when people use capitalized "Being" and so on when discussing Dzogchen, it generally means they have either read too much Husserl, etc., or they are some kind of neo-advaitan.

dzogchungpa said:
People using "Supreme Absolute Being" very much excepted of course.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you mean the Ramana quote that Elio used without informing the boss...which was then removed in the reprint. So no, no exceptions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A passage from Buddhahood, pg. 161 is instructive here, as it is repeated all over various Great Perfection texts:
If it is objected, “If afflictions are liberated into dharmatā without antidotes, there is no need for purification on the path. Otherwise, liberation would require no effort,” for what reason would those who do not understand be liberated? Asserting that those who understand are liberated merely by recognizing concepts as dharmatā is the fruit of one’s wishes. As such, in order to recognize that concepts are dharmatā, the intimate instructions of the guru are important.

Vasana said:
And so i think it's fair to say that deliberate effort and dilligence in applying the instructions of the Guru is needed to realize effortless liberation even if that liberation it's self is not the result of the causal process of effort. As you said earlier, 'creation and completion are at best an indirect means of coming to that recognition.' Sounds like a pretty good outcome for those suited to it even if it's indirect. I guess the problem is that there's a thin line between it being an aid or a deviation.

Malcolm wrote:
The indirect means has the same principle— recognizing concepts as dharmatā. This is also based on a guru's instructions. In both cases, recognition is the point. For example, when you encounter someone you know in  a crowd, there is no effort involved in recognizing them. If you have not met someone and only know their name, unless there is someone who can introduce you, you will spend a long time asking every person in the crowd if they are so and so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2017 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
Again:  Is effort something other than Dzogchen?  Is practice something other than minds enlightened nature?' Is cause and effect something other than Dzogchen?  Etc...

Malcolm wrote:
If you think you need effort and practice to realize Dzogchen, then you are deviating from the meaning of Dzogchen. There is no cause and effect in the state of Dzogchen. This could not be more clear in the All-Creating King:
Oh mahasattva, listen!
this is the explanation for doubts about the purpose.
In countless past eons, 
since fortunate Atiyogins
with devotion to me, All-Creating Bodhi,
do not meditate a view, do not protect samayas,
do not engage in activities, do not progress on a path, 
do not train on stages, do not have cause and result, 
do not have relative and ultimate,
perceive there is nothing to meditate or accomplish, 
do not generate altruistic intentions, nor use antidotes, 
that perception of the nature of the all-creating mind
is the explanation of the purpose.
That said, if someone likes doing sadhanas, they are free.

Vasana said:
While I appreciate that this is all valid from the perspective of the meaning of Dzogchen, doesn't the insistence of no effort required then lead to the argument that sentient beings should already be realized Buddhas in actuality and not just potentiality? Using the various Dzogchen preliminaries as an example, these involve initial effort even if the actual state recognized is beyond effort. I can't remember who said it but it makes me think of the phrase, 'The Artificial leads to the natural' & 'The path of effort leads to effortlessness'. Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche from 'As it is vol 2,

“Honestly, for a beginner, without the mindfulness of reminding, there is no recognition of mind essence. That is called deliberate mindfulness. It is dualistic mind that reminds you to recognize, but the seeing of no thing to be seen is rigpa, the awakened state free of duality. This becomes dearly discerned through practical experience. In other words, a yogi can distinguish the difference between these two, while a beginner cannot. Therefore, in the beginning it is indispensable to be 'remindful'. After all, rigpa has been caught up in sem, dualistic mind, from beginningless lifetimes. The essence has been lost in its expression“
As for conduct and Samaya, this also has to reflect one's level of actual realization. Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche again,

“Padmasambhava said: ‘Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.’ Don’t confuse one with the other. When training in the view, you can be as unbiased, as impartial, as vast, immense, and unlimited as the sky. Your behaviour, on the other hand, should be as careful as possible in discriminating what is beneficial or harmful, what is good or evil. One can combine the view and conduct, but don’t mix them or lose one in the other. That is very important

I think the main point is different people have different capacities at different times and there are many ways up a mountain. Going the long way round might seem silly to those who know all of the direct shortcuts but then some people might have very little chance of reaching the top or encountering these shortcuts without going the indirect way first.

Malcolm wrote:
A passage from Buddhahood, pg. 161 is instructive here, as it is repeated all over various Great Perfection texts:
If it is objected, “If afflictions are liberated into dharmatā without antidotes, there is no need for purification on the path. Otherwise, liberation would require no effort,” for what reason would those who do not understand be liberated? Asserting that those who understand are liberated merely by recognizing concepts as dharmatā is the fruit of one’s wishes. As such, in order to recognize that concepts are dharmatā, the intimate instructions of the guru are important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
So, what is the problem? If there is nothing separate, there is no one to practice anything. The questions you are bringing up happen when you don't live like this.


Malcolm wrote:
The state of dzogchen is not brahmin, etc. It is personal and individual.

Anonymous X said:
I think you mean Brahman, not brahmin. But, that is not what I was referring to at all.

Malcolm wrote:
good, when people use capitalized "Being" and so on when discussing Dzogchen, it generally means they have either read too much Husserl, etc., or they are some kind of neo-advaitan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Can someone tell me where sadhana fits into this?

Grigoris said:
Can you tell where it does not fit?  I was under the impression that all existence is nothing other Dzogchen, that there is nothing seperate to Dzogchen.

Anonymous X said:
So, what is the problem? If there is nothing separate, there is no one to practice anything. The questions you are bringing up happen when you don't live like this.


Malcolm wrote:
The state of dzogchen is not brahmin, etc. It is personal and individual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point, Greg, is that the state of Dzogchen is not something to attain through effort and practice, like putting in a foundation, erecting walls, and putting on a roof. The state of Dzogchen is not something to be attained through perceiving a cause and an effect. The state of Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect.

Grigoris said:
Again:  Is effort something other than Dzogchen?  Is practice something other than minds enlightened nature?' Is cause and effect something other than Dzogchen?  Etc...

Malcolm wrote:
If you think you need effort and practice to realize Dzogchen, then you are deviating from the meaning of Dzogchen. There is no cause and effect in the state of Dzogchen. This could not be more clear in the All-Creating King:

Oh mahasattva, listen!
this is the explanation for doubts about the purpose.
In countless past eons, 
since fortunate Atiyogins
with devotion to me, All-Creating Bodhi,
do not meditate a view, do not protect samayas,
do not engage in activities, do not progress on a path, 
do not train on stages, do not have cause and result, 
do not have relative and ultimate,
perceive there is nothing to meditate or accomplish, 
do not generate altruistic intentions, nor use antidotes, 
that perception of the nature of the all-creating mind
is the explanation of the purpose.
That said, if someone likes doing sadhanas, they are free.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Can someone tell me where sadhana fits into this?

Grigoris said:
Can you tell where it does not fit?  I was under the impression that all existence is nothing other Dzogchen, that there is nothing seperate to Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but there is a difference between recognizing that and not recognizing that. The point that Dzogchen tantras consistently make is that practicing the two stages of creation and completion are at best an indirect means of coming to that recognition, and at worst a total deviation from the meaning of the Great Perfection. Rongzom points out that one should not discriminate between mantra or sūtra practice when it comes to the indirect approach. Recognition is the important point in Dzogchen, nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Grigoris said:
And this your experience, right?  You are not just regurgitating a half-digested theory, right?

Malcolm wrote:
The point, Greg, is that the state of Dzogchen is not something to attain through effort and practice, like putting in a foundation, erecting walls, and putting on a roof. The state of Dzogchen is not something to be attained through perceiving a cause and an effect. The state of Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"I have no devatā but the devatā of the nature of my mind."

-- Vairocana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Grigoris said:
Would you say that the Tibetan Medicine view and use of chakra (which seems to be more static), is different to the spiritual/yogic view and use of chakras?


Malcolm wrote:
These things are all connected with the formation of the body after conception. Thus, there is no way to separate them. For example, there is a vast so called "sgeg sel" literature which are yogic means of removing illness based on an understanding of the vāyus, nāḍīs and so on of the body.

Vasana said:
Is much of this "sgeg sel" literature currently available?
I know that the appendices in the Yantra Yoga book lists some of the relative functions of the practices but what you're speaking of sounds more specific.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not really available. Unfortunately, to date very few Dharma translators have the necessary training in Tibetan Medicine to understand the medical import of much of what they read in yogic texts. Indeed, "fake yoga" ideas about cakras and so on have impeded proper understanding of Vajrayāna texts for decades. One example, mislabeling vāyu (rlung) as prāṇa. Prāṇa (srog 'dzin) is not rlung, it is one of the five rlungs (vāyu).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
IN reality, cakras are places in the body where channels cross. The five major cakras in Tibetan Buddhism are places where blood vessels, arteries and nerves cluster to produce various functions, such as sense perception (brain); speech and eating (throat); consciousness,circulation and respiration (heart); growth of the fetus and digestion (navel); as well as excretion and reproduction (groin).

Grigoris said:
Would you say that the Tibetan Medicine view and use of chakra (which seems to be more static), is different to the spiritual/yogic view and use of chakras?


Malcolm wrote:
These things are all connected with the formation of the body after conception. Thus, there is no way to separate them. For example, there is a vast so called "sgeg sel" literature which are yogic means of removing illness based on an understanding of the vāyus, nāḍīs and so on of the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Choying Dzod is largely considered a commentary on the view of the so called mind series. As such, it mainly concerns the topic of the basis.

Fa Dao said:
your book seems to have considerably more breadth to it....gotta say it again...so many "gaps" that are being filled....know what I mean? I know now why you chose this...
gotta tell ya man...the way you laid out the introduction....very nice...like a preview of coming attractions...please consider doing it that way in the future on all of your translation work..makes it easier for "regular" folks to "get it"...know what I mean?

Malcolm wrote:
Thank you. I am glad you are finding it edifying.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Can you go into more detail? Clearly the broad concept itself not bullshit, since lung is so tied to emotional states, what I'm curious about is HOW they are bullshit in comparison to the real thing (tm). Again this author on the one hand says they are bullshit, but in the next sentence or so describes the emotional problems created by incorrect practice of westerners.
.


Malcolm wrote:
They are bullshit because those associations are based on the Zelator papers of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Crowley's subsequent elaboration of the same in 777.


Johnny Dangerous said:
Ah ok, I get it now, but this applies mainly to the systems encountered in non-Buddhist stuff right...i.e the standard 7 chakra deal?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup and fake yoga stuff.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, those associations are bullshit.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Can you go into more detail? Clearly the broad concept itself not bullshit, since lung is so tied to emotional states, what I'm curious about is HOW they are bullshit in comparison to the real thing (tm). Again this author on the one hand says they are bullshit, but in the next sentence or so describes the emotional problems created by incorrect practice of westerners.
.


Malcolm wrote:
They are bullshit because those associations are based on the Zelator papers of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Crowley's subsequent elaboration of the same in 777.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Read this recently too and enjoyed it...the thing about viewing chakra as organs seems totally pervasive in the western Yoga view of them.


Malcolm wrote:
IN reality, cakras are places in the body where channels cross. The five major cakras in Tibetan Buddhism are places where blood vessels, arteries and nerves cluster to produce various functions, such as sense perception (brain); speech and eating (throat); consciousness,circulation and respiration (heart); growth of the fetus and digestion (navel); as well as excretion and reproduction (groin).


Johnny Dangerous said:
So this article doesn't go into great detail, but it says that psychological functions associated with various chakra are also a "modern" thing, but this seems like an iffy claim to me, as just those sorts of physical functions are "traditionally" associated with certain psychological maladies, mind states etc. He also goes briefly into the idea that western practitioners have certain personality characteristics due to incorrect practice, which seems contradictory to the statement that chakra have no psychological function traditionally.. Can you give me the scoop on that?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, those associations are bullshit.

What I am talking about is different and is covered in the formation of the body sections in many different tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: A very interesting article on the chakras...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Read this recently too and enjoyed it...the thing about viewing chakra as organs seems totally pervasive in the western Yoga view of them.


Malcolm wrote:
IN reality, cakras are places in the body where channels cross. The five major cakras in Tibetan Buddhism are places where blood vessels, arteries and nerves cluster to produce various functions, such as sense perception (brain); speech and eating (throat); consciousness,circulation and respiration (heart); growth of the fetus and digestion (navel); as well as excretion and reproduction (groin).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Malcolm,
a few questions if you don't mind indulging...
1. Out of all the Dzogchen texts/Tantras out there that have not been translated what made you choose this one?

2. Could you do a contrast compare between this work and the Choying Dzod? Not to say that one is better but to highlight the differing focus of each text

3. Would this be a good complementary companion for studies/practice of the Choying Dzod?

Thank you for your time!

Malcolm wrote:
Choying Dzod is largely considered a commentary on the view of the so called mind series. As such, it mainly concerns the topic of the basis.

Fa Dao said:
your book seems to have considerably more breadth to it....gotta say it again...so many "gaps" that are being filled....know what I mean? I know now why you chose this...


Malcolm wrote:
It chose me. It was part of the four volume cycle of the Gongs pa zang thal. Though Longchenpa's tshig don mdzod has many more citations, it is not fundamentally different than this text, and excludes topics such as the nidana section, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 8:04 PM
Title: Re: Energy stuck in the head, insanity, anger, going nuts
Content:
frankc said:
I have had this problem for so many years. I have been to monks, I have been to teachers, I have seen my guru many times, nothing ever, ever, permanently fixes this problem. When I meditate, energy moves into my head, it builds into a giant ball of pressure, and then anger, delusion, confusion, and insanity start to arise as a result. For years I have tried to fix it, I have been taught so many techniques to fix it, nothing fixes this problem. When the pressure builds up in my head, it starts to hurt my heart and lungs below. I have felt like I was going to have a heart attack before. Every morning I wake up, there it is, the big ball of pressure stuck in my head, i meditate, it gets worse and worse. Everyday is another day of suffering and misery. Horrible horrible emotions constantly arising day after day due to this energy being stuck in my head. Is there anyone in this world that knows how to fix this problem? I haven't met one yet.


Malcolm wrote:
You need to go to an Ayurvedic doctor, a very good one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Malcolm,
a few questions if you don't mind indulging...
1. Out of all the Dzogchen texts/Tantras out there that have not been translated what made you choose this one?

2. Could you do a contrast compare between this work and the Choying Dzod? Not to say that one is better but to highlight the differing focus of each text

3. Would this be a good complementary companion for studies/practice of the Choying Dzod?

Thank you for your time!

Malcolm wrote:
Choying Dzod is largely considered a commentary on the view of the so called mind series. As such, it mainly concerns the topic of the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Wrathful Deities
Content:
Tirisilex said:
I dont believe that Wrath is a quality of a Buddha so I don't think Wrathful deities are full of wrath. Are they?

Malcolm wrote:
Peaceful deities are related to the eight consciousnesses. Wrathful deities are related to the senses organs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:


muni said:
I find as I said earlier that an investigation about people's behavior would be interesting, whether so called anonymous or not. A forum is not a closed place, our behavior is all what we expose.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Great, what is your opinion on the subject of forum anonymity then?

muni said:
Okay. Regarding a Buddhist forum, anonymity or not itself will not result in caring behavior.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but that is not the point. The point is that it may result in more careful behavior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
smcj said:
The culture here has become disdainful of the very idea of sadhana practice under the guise of insulating Dz from all other practices. That goes beyond mere triumphalism.

Malcolm wrote:
In a nutshell: you are wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
smcj said:
. As for one, secondary practices are useful
Ok, great. As for your second question, no, I am not dismissive of their "validity"
Ok, so they are both valid and useful. That's a good start.

What can they be useful for? When should they be used? Do you personally do any, even sporadically? Under what circumstances would you see doing one as advantigous?


Malcolm wrote:
Since when have I ever discussed my personal practice?

As far as your question goes however, obstacle removal, life extension, winning friends and influencing people, etc., the usual circumstantial things people want.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 9:08 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Pretty funny that my simple opinion has led to multiple page threads both here and on Vajracakra...

Oh, by the way: Malcolm Farleigh Estes Smith, Ācārya, DTM, aka Namdrol, Kunga Namdrol, Loppon Kunga Namdrol, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 8:50 AM
Title: Re: Tertön
Content:
Palzang Jangchub said:
What about when a person claims "I received a vision that if you do X, Y, and Z, you will reveal a pure vision treasure"?  When things like this are said unprompted and unbidden, do they get examined seriously just in case, or are they simply to be regarded as jokes in poor taste and/or signs of mental disturbance?


Malcolm wrote:
People who say things like that are usually idiots.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 7:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
smcj said:
It has to do with his attitude towards sadhana practice, which is included in this thread.

To your credit you willingly made the point yourself. I'm just highlighting it.

My take on your post(s) is that you are more "Dzogchen exclusive" than ChNN is. For instance I don't easily imagine you sitting down and doing a Tara sadhana. Nothing wrong with that. That's your karmic trajectory.

Like I said, I'm just highlighting the point you just made about ChNN's apparently more tolerant approach to sadhanas than your own.

Malcolm wrote:
I find it amazing when people who have no relationship with nor have ever sat in his company for any extended period of time feel confident in commenting on ChNN's point of view about this and that in an effort to fit him into their own views about Dharma. This is remarkable indeed because of the consistent disagreement with which their comments meet from people who are actually the man's students.

FYI, in ChNN's teachings all sadhanas of whatever stripe are considered secondary practices.

smcj said:
That was never contested. Point conceded.
*****
So now let us discuss sadhana practice as secondary practices.

Would you agree that ChNN's endorsement of sadhana practices as secondary is an endorsement of their value and validity in general? Would you also agree that your own position on the value of sadhana practices in general, even as secondary, is dismissive of their validity?

Malcolm wrote:
As for one, secondary practices are useful. As for your second question, no, I am not dismissive of their "validity" per se.

The point is that creation and completion stages practices do not form part of actual Dzogchen practice, regardless of whether mantra practices are an indirect means of realizing the meaning of Dzogchen teachings from the perspective that Mañjuśrimitra outlined.

The fact that Dzogchen practice as outlined in the Dzogchen tantras are not involved with the standard secret mantras methods of creation and completion should not be construed as a condemnation of such practices. Dzogchen simply does not make any great use of them. It does not mean they are bad, or that someone who is practicing Dzogchen should avoid them, if they have reason for their use. However, a practitioner of Dzogchen should understand that such practices are not the main point, and that the vehicles that promulgate cause and result with respect to buddhahood suffer from certain deviations with respect to Dzogchen, including anuyoga. Such practices in general are secondary primarily because the vehicles from which they spring have an incomplete understanding of the meaning of Dzogchen.

One does not need to get involved with those vehicles to practice Dzogchen. One can start out as Dzogchen practitioner, practice the path of Dzogchen, and realize the result of Dzogchen without reciting a single mantra or practicing a single sadhana from any of other five levels of tantra.

Of course, if someone is trained in what has come to be regarded as the "traditional" approach, typically one practices common and uncommon ngondro, three roots, and then enters the special preliminaries of Dzogpachenpo (hopefully, one will complete these before one becomes too old to practice actual Dzogchen practice). But this is not necessary, and never has been.

This not a question of "pure Dzogchen" as opposed to some other kind. This is a question of what those instructions that have come down to us in the tantras of and commentaries on the Kun byed rgyal po, etc., the Vajra bridge, etc., and the so called intimate instruction series actually say.

The point is to understand what the path of Atiyoga is, not the paths of Mahāyoga and Anuyoga which regard Atiyoga as some kind of result that is attained through a cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
smcj said:
If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?
What does that have to do with Dzogchen.
It has to do with his attitude towards sadhana practice, which is included in this thread.

To your credit you willingly made the point yourself. I'm just highlighting it.

My take on your post(s) is that you are more "Dzogchen exclusive" than ChNN is. For instance I don't easily imagine you sitting down and doing a Tara sadhana. Nothing wrong with that. That's your karmic trajectory.

Like I said, I'm just highlighting the point you just made about ChNN's apparently more tolerant approach to sadhanas than your own.

Malcolm wrote:
I find it amazing when people who have no relationship with nor have ever sat in his company for any extended period of time feel confident in commenting on ChNN's point of view about this and that in an effort to fit him into their own views about Dharma. This is remarkable indeed because of the consistent disagreement with which their comments meet from people who are actually the man's students.

FYI, in ChNN's teachings all sadhanas of whatever stripe are considered secondary practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:
smcj said:
Does this mean that Dzogchen masters ruled out an indirect path for unfortunates?  No.
"Unfortunates"? I have heard the boss state, more than once, that he does not maintain a regular practice schedule of thun practices. That said, for his longevity, it is well known that he relies in Mandarava. He also is fond of Tara, and Ozer Chenma
If he's interested in longevity he must not be dismissive of all "causes and conditions", right?

Malcolm wrote:
What does that have to do with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 10:26 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:


Quay said:
So your source is a name given to you by other people? Interesting concept of a source.

Malcolm wrote:
When we know who a person is, what they do, who their teachers are, there is more basis for trust in what they say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 10:23 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I regard the input of anonymous users who are unknown to me with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.

Mantrik said:
Is that how you would have regarded  the person, if unknown to you,  who for many many years was 'Namdrol'?
You say you were never that anonymous, yet I had no idea  a who you were and came to respect you nonetheless.  Your point was that if unknown to you someone not using their own name was therefore someone whose views must be disregarded.
Methinks tis the sport to have the engineer hoist by his own petar.

Malcolm wrote:
You could have easily ascertained who I was if you had cared to. After all, my meat space identity was never a secret. Your apathy at learning who I was is not a measure of my desire for anonymity. BTW, I stopped using Namdrol because I decided it was ridiculous for me to use a Tibetan name. I am not Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Tertön
Content:
philji said:
A very interesting book on this subject is " Tibetan Treasure Literature" by Andreas Doctor.
By the way, referring back to an earlier post from Malcolm... who guards the termas which are in rocks etc...is it nagas only or are there specific beings entrusted with this duty?

Malcolm wrote:
In general, terma guardians are often naga like demons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 8:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Sadhana Practice
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Wait a minute.

I thought that Buddhafields are mentioned in even the highest (?) class(es) of texts, which are supposed to be definitive.

Dudjom Lingpa is not necessarily implying here that Stephen Batchelor is not completely wrong after all, is he?

Or is "somewhere else" the key phrase here?

RikudouSennin said:
From my limited understanding it seems as if the buddhafields are viewed  as enlightened qualities as opposed to actual locations or destinations.
I'm certain Malcolm could answer you more clearly though.
Peace.

Sādhaka said:
Okay, thanks for your reply.

Then perhaps " somewhere else " is the key phrase here, meaning that the Buddhafields are inside rather than being external places that one is transported to.

If such is the case, then I don't think that Dudjom Lingpa was trying to go "Stephen Batchelor" on us.

Or maybe there is a third alternative here that I'm not seeing.


Malcolm wrote:
There are no buddhafields external to one's own state, from the perspective of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama's daily practice - specific details
Content:
MiphamFan said:
What "culture"?

ChNN also practices his own sadhanas daily. Many Dzogchen masters do so.

Malcolm wrote:
I have heard the boss state, more than once, that he does not maintain a regular practice schedule of thun practices. That said, for his longevity, it is well known that he relies in Mandarava. He also is fond of Tara, and Ozer Chenma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, as far as I can see, the whole reason this thread exists is because I asked Anonymous X to tell us about the connection between his or her Buddhist and non-Buddhist study/practice. Apparently this was a bit too much for some. Generally speaking, I think that when people start "taking names" it is basically a form of intimidation.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a means of ascertaining the source of people's mental peregrinations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I regard the input of anonymous users who are unknown to me with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.

Jeff H said:
I spent 4½ years in online courses through Jamyang. Among the requirements for both courses was participation in the online discussions. Many people were reticent to share because they were embarrassed to express their ideas to the group.

In a classroom setting I am the same way, but online I always found that odd because, first, we were learning that our personhood in general is an imputed fiction, and furthermore we were unlikely to ever meet each other. We were essentially anonymous anyway, even though we used our "real" names.

I think people tend to identify with their online personas just as they do their societal personages, and allow those identities to color their behavior. What’s more, trolls are trolls, whether anonymous or known, online or in person.

Your feeling seems particularly strange to me, Malcolm, because you seem to be saying the validity of a posting depends on the identity of the writer rather than the quality of what they write.

Malcolm wrote:
When it comes to Vajrayana, the sutric dictum to follow the Dharma, not the person needs to taken with a grain of salt.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I regard the input of anonymous users who are unknown to me with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.

Mantrik said:
Is that how you would have regarded  the person, if unknown to you,  who for many many years was 'Namdrol'?

dzogchungpa said:
Malcolm is apparently quite fond of town drunks, see:



Malcolm wrote:
He did recommend that world never abandon booze.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I regard the input of anonymous users who are unknown to me with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.

Mantrik said:
Is that how you would have regarded  the person, if unknown to you,  who for many many years was 'Namdrol'?


Malcolm wrote:
I was never terribly anonymous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Anonymity on Buddhist forums
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I regard the input of anonymous users who are unknown to me with only slightly more regard than the ramblings of the town drunk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2017 at 8:21 AM
Title: Re: Stream-entry in a Mahāyāna context
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
How is stream-entry defined and contextualized from a Bodhisattvayāna-informed perspective specifically? Is there any significant difference in how Mahāyāna and Theravāda define contextualize and regard stream-entry?

Malcolm wrote:
First stage is Mahayana stream entry


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2017 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra and Pali Buddhist morals & meditation..
Content:
Anonymous X said:
If I introduce myself, I will no longer be Anonymous. We can't have that, can we?

anjali said:
You can introduce yourself as Anonymous X. People can maintain their meatspace anonymity while still introducing themselves. Lots of folks have done so.


Malcolm wrote:
A practice I completely disapprove of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2017 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Yes, agreed. What I was implying is that the natural state encompasses all actions rendering them harmless and appropriate. There are no choices to be made if one truly is living this as there is only that.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Jax, please take your new age pastiche elsewhere.

Anonymous X said:
Whoever Jax is, it is not me.

Malcolm wrote:
Regardless, take it elsewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2017 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Avijnapti
Content:
Queequeg said:
Working through Abhidharmakosabhyasam.

Can't figure this out. Google searches have not been fruitful.

What is avijnapti?


Malcolm wrote:
Avijñāpti is a dharma proposed by the Sarvastivadins and rejected by the Sautrantikas. It is a kind of matter that is created when one takes a vow. This means that vows create a physical state that cannot be perceived (avijñāpti). It is irrelevant to everyone above the level of Sarvastivada. But it is an interesting theory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2017 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra and Pali Buddhist morals & meditation..
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Does it really sound like I'm speculating?

Malcolm wrote:
It sounds like you are an all-oner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2017 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Grigoris said:
A single glimpse of one's true nature is enough to render useless entire encyclopedias of terminology and learning.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that a guru is indispensable for glimpsing one's "true nature." You cannot find even one single tantra or intimate instruction that suggests otherwise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 17th, 2017 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of belief. It is a question of definitions.

Grigoris said:
I thought you would say something profound, like:  It is a question of experience.

Definitions can be found in dictionaries and books, experience and realisation though...


Marc said:
It is indeed a matter a lexicon...

It seems to me that modern Dzogchen oral traditions tends to "simplify" things a bit with Rigpa as a kind heuristic, that encompasses Rigpa, The Base, Dharmakaya etc...

While, as far as I can tell, in ancient Dzogchen texts and tradition, Rigpa has a precise meaning and definition, (tentatively paraphrased hereafter)
The recognition of the indivisible Empty-Clarity of the Base pointed out by the Guru.

Given these lexicon differences, what may sound even more shocking to modern ears yet while solving many pseudo-paradoxes and also emptying a lot of spiritual wanking " à l a you know who":
Not only is Rigpa "conditional" but it is also impermanent.
For the practionner on the path, the recognition of the ever-present Base is not ever-present itself. At the level of the Path (not the Base) moments of Recognition and distraction do alternate.
When this apparence has vanished, one has regained the Primordial Throne and one is a Buddha in actuality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 17th, 2017 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Malcolm, you can believe whatever you want, but belief is useless.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of belief. It is a question of definitions.

Grigoris said:
I thought you would say something profound, like:  It is a question of experience.

Definitions can be found in dictionaries and books, experience and realisation though...

Malcolm wrote:
In this case however, it is not profound since it is a simple question of definitions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 17th, 2017 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Anonymous X said:
Sorry to nitpick at you, Vasana, but.........I think your first sentence is sufficient. The activity of accepting and rejecting are not the way towards stability, they are in fact obstructing it, as well as any idea of cultivation of merit or rejection of the negative.

Vasana said:
In terms of equipoise, then yes, accepting ,rejecting and reification is an obstruction. But in terms of going about your daily life you still need to know what conduct is acceptable and conducive for recognizing & stabilizing your recognition and what conduct harms it and is not conducive for recognizing & stabilizing your recognition.

This is why Guru Rinpoche says even if your view is as wide as the sky, attention towards action, cause and effect should be as fine as flour. If you went about your day in a state of ma-rigpa, doing whatever you pleased, you might be beyond accepting and rejecting by deed, but that won't be coming from a place of understanding unless you're actually in a state of knowledge at that time of committing any given action.

Anonymous X said:
Yes, agreed. What I was implying is that the natural state encompasses all actions rendering them harmless and appropriate. There are no choices to be made if one truly is living this as there is only that.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Jax, please take your new age pastiche elsewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 17th, 2017 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Malcolm, you can believe whatever you want, but belief is useless.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of belief. It is a question of definitions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2017 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "vidya/rigpa is conditional upon introduction and does not exist without it." Perhaps the way you phrased the words is not what you really meant.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I said exactly what I meant.

Anonymous X said:
I'm sure you are not saying that rigpa is not always present, but you need someone to make it the case.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Anonymous X said:
If you mean that you need someone to help you see your own intrinsic nature of awareness that is obscured by your habitual thinking, then I it can make sense. But, even further, anyone at anytime can come to see rigpa, intrinsic awareness, and is not dependent on another.



Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge (vidyā, rigpa) depends on a guru's intimate instructions, without which one will never have that knowledge (vidyā).

Anonymous X said:
It depends on the person. Sticking to dogmas will eventually obstruct any kind of real knowing and illumination. All paths have this danger. I am not advocating not practicing, just being mindful of the fixations and dangers of 'travel'.

Malcolm wrote:
To the extent that a person has the good fortune to meet Dzogchen teachings, it depends on the person. Without meeting a qualified  guru, however, there is no hope that one will discover that knowledge for oneself alone. As the Tantra Without Syllables states:

The dharmakāya is encountered in the instructions.
Vimalamitra states:
Sentient beings experience samsara, cycling within it again and again. Although they abide in samsara, they have never seen the characteristic of samsara because they lack the instruction of a guru.
And:
As such, the nature of vidyā pervades all migrating beings, but they do not understand the instructions of the guru for encountering the dharmakāya in direct perception.
So, you are free to do as you please, but Dzogchen yogis rely on the intimate instructions of their guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2017 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: How easy was it to get empowerments in Tibet?
Content:
Boomerang said:
So now I'm curious, did people in Tibet actually do the "examine a guru for 12 years" thing...?

Malcolm wrote:
generally no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2017 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Full disclosure
Content:
smcj said:
...but henceforth I will certainly be more patient with people who choose to do that.

Malcolm wrote:
Thank you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2017 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Bump

Malcolm wrote:
It is not how it us explained in the early manag de tantra s and commentaries. The way the early commentaries explain this is that trekcho is the path for lazy chikcharwas; togal is for diligent rimgipas.

Crazywisdom said:
I would contend there is always some display of dharmata, like a bluish light. So the exhaustion of dharmata is not like tregcho.



Malcolm wrote:
I don't contend anything. I just report what I read.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2017 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they cannot. You are confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

Crazywisdom said:
And what do you say to Thogal is the path and tregcho the realization like the completion stage?
Bump

Malcolm wrote:
It is not how it us explained in the early manag de tantra s and commentaries. The way the early commentaries explain this is that trekcho is the path for lazy chikcharwas; togal is for diligent rimgipas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:



gzodzilpa said:
Sorry to press the issue and perhaps I am overthinking this, but will you further clarify the difference? Is the difference a matter of merely coming across the natural state versus directly apprehending the true character of the natural state?

Malcolm wrote:
one is based on ascertaining the nature of the mind, the second is confirming rig pa in one's direct perception via ones sense organs.



Marc said:
So if I get you right, this distinction is one of the superiorities of Thögal over Trekchö ? Right ?

Malcolm wrote:
That is one way to put it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 8:49 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they cannot. You are confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

gzodzilpa said:
Will you expand a bit on this please?


Marc said:
Upvote for this !

Could you please Malcolm further clarify this distinction ?

What do you translate as "moment of unfabricated consciousness" ?

Malcolm wrote:
Shes pa ma bcos pa skad gcig ma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 8:45 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
I am confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Many people (not you) do. They are not the same thing.


gzodzilpa said:
Sorry to press the issue and perhaps I am overthinking this, but will you further clarify the difference? Is the difference a matter of merely coming across the natural state versus directly apprehending the true character of the natural state?

Malcolm wrote:
one is based on ascertaining the nature of the mind, the second is confirming rig pa in one's direct perception via ones sense organs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
I am confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Many people do. They are not the same thing.

heart said:
I think it is very much out of line to think you know anything about my practice Malcolm. I am really disappointed I must say.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Magnus, my comment was not directed at you personally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


Vasana said:
But if you've already had a hint of that direct perception, methods from other yanas can be used while knowing the flavour of the main point. You can still experience brief uncontrived moments interspersed in an ellaborate practice if you choose to practice in that way.


Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they cannot. You are confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

heart said:
I am confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Many people (not you) do. They are not the same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
Yes, of course. For me that includes using methods from all the yanas, just like ChNNR say we can do.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Using methods from other yanas will not lead even to a hint of the direct perception of rigpa.

heart said:
Of course it will, if you got direct introduction.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Norwegian said:
And while of course one can practice the methods of creation and completion from Vajrayana, or a method from Sutra too if that's something one likes and gets benefit from, it's this often proposed idea people have which is so peculiar, that one must supplement Dzogchen with something else, because Dzogchen somehow is lacking in methods.

Vasana said:
I don't think anyone here was arguing that if you practice Dzogchen, you must supplement with something else or that it's in any way lacking.  As you said, it's something you can do if you feel it has any kind of benefits. The debate seems to be centred on whether the other yanas are able to produce the same recognition.

Malcolm wrote:
They are incapable of producing the direct perception of rigoa since they do not even duscuss it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
Yes, of course. For me that includes using methods from all the yanas, just like ChNNR say we can do.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Using methods from other yanas will not lead even to a hint of the direct perception of rigpa.

Vasana said:
But if you've already had a hint of that direct perception, methods from other yanas can be used while knowing the flavour of the main point. You can still experience brief uncontrived moments interspersed in an ellaborate practice if you choose to practice in that way.


Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they cannot. You are confusing direct perception of rigpa with resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2017 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
The master pointing it out don't make you capable to continue in that state continuously, unfortunately. Nor does it make it effortless to return to that state when you loose it or even to make a clear distinction between rigpa and mind. It is a big job.

/magnus

Crazywisdom said:
True but at least you know what he's talking about. And you can get the job done when you put your mind to it.

heart said:
Yes, of course. For me that includes using methods from all the yanas, just like ChNNR say we can do.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Using methods from other yanas will not lead even to a hint of the direct perception of rigpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 13th, 2017 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thanks for the citation magnus. This is the first time I have ben able to sit down with a computer in some days.

heart said:
I had an email conversation with a friend about the two accumulations and he wrote the following:

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
The Tantra Without Syllables states:
Since the appearance of vidyā is intrinsically perfect,
I do not assert the two accumulations of syllables.
The Blossoming Lotus commentary on this passage by Vimalamitra states:
Everything is perfect within the appearances of vidyā itself. Since [the appearance of vidyā] is intrinsic, it is perfect. Asserting the two accumulations of merit and [pristine consciousness] as the cause of awakening is a deviation— not realizing the meaning of Ati which is free from accomplishment through effort. Within the reality of Ati, the two accumulations of merit (the cause) and pristine consciousness (the result) are not asserted in my self-originated vidyā.
With respect to the creation stage, it says:
Since there is neither emanating nor gathering in me,
the meanings of syllables are totally perfect.
Vimalamitra comments:
Since there is no effort of emanating and collecting the assembly of syllables in my self-liberated appearance, there is no need for a creation stage, like the syllables. The way the syllables located in the ultimate natural nāḍīs are totally perfect is that Samantabhadra father and mother abide within the balls of light, perfect like oil in a small seed—the deities that do not need to be created are innate attributes.
Further:
Since there is no cause in vidyā itself,
where can there be a generation stage syllable?
Vimala comments:
There is no connate cause in vidyā. Since it has always self-appeared without being created by a cause, there is no need in the present to generate that [appearance]. Since it has always been intrinsically complete, where can there be a generation stage seed syllable? Since that is not understood, outer and inner mantra from Mahāyoga on down are deviations.
Further:
Since pristine consciousness and the five kāyas are intrinsically complete,
there is also no A of the completion stage.
Vimala states:
Since pristine consciousness and the five kāyas are complete as innate attributes in vidyā itself, they have always existed. Since the completion stage that depends on the syllables of outer and inner Secret Mantra (based on the syllable A and so on) is a deviation, it also does not exist in Ati.
Vimala also mentions possible deviations within Ati:
Since Mahāyoga Tantra asserts that the outer universe is the celestial mansion and the inhabitants are deities in the utterly pure relative based on words, it deviates from the transcendent state of the self-liberation of the appearances of the six relaxed senses.

Since Anuyoga Tantra asserts the dhātu and pristine consciousness as ultimate based on words, it deviates from the meaning of making the result of Ati Yoga (the sole, unique bindu) into the path, the absolute perfection in which nothing is abandoned.

Furthermore, the proponents of Ati who assert words that are approximations deviate by: 1) leaving the view in the basis, 2) leaving meditation as the mode of the arising of qualities, 3) leaving experience in syllables, 4) leaving conduct in reality, 5) leaving everything as being the mind, and 6) asserting the potentiality and play of appearances as ultimate. Since all of these proponents lack experience, they deviate by grasping a view and meditation of intellectual analysis. As such, because of being free from these assertions of words, there is no emanation and withdrawal. As vidyā itself is not within the range of wisdom (prajñā), it is confirmed as a direct perception which is beyond intellectual analysis. 

Since with the three critical points one abides together with the nonarising dharmatā, there is no need for the activities of hearing, reflection, and meditation. Likewise, there is no distinction between sharpness or dullness in capacity.

Since the experience itself is approached in the self-appearance, the extreme of doubt is eliminated. Since there is freedom from benefit or harm in gathering accumulations or misdeeds, and since this can be immediately applied in experience, vidyā is beyond virtues or misdeeds. In this way, since appearances are liberated directly, there is no great hope for some other antidote. Since the meaning of inexpressibility is experienced on the basis of one’s own voice, those who are beyond words and expressions are those of the unmistaken Atiyoga which is beyond a ground of deviation. Since Ati does not fall into any sort of a ground of deviation, those who assert other designations with words and syllables are explained to be those who deviate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
madhusudan said:
I've read this thread with interest over the past days, and thank each poster for adding their perspective. Since the primordial Buddha spontaneously manifests as teacher and disciples, I thought the relative practices were aspects of compassion. Due to lack of merit and conceptual obscurations sentient beings don't recognize the natural state, so they need some help. I think Milarepa didn't get it immediately either, so people who need purification and accumulation are in good company. Looking at the state of most people on Earth today, I think teachings on ethics are most compassionate. So many people headed to a burning hell, preta realm or animal it's truly sad. How will they ever realize the natural state then?

Malcolm wrote:
Without a qualified guru, never. With such a guru, easily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2017 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Such sentiments dont really have anything to do with how creation is practiced. In fact such sentiments are made from perspective of the completion stage.


Vasana said:
I think the distinction to be made is that 'creation stage' is also used in other contexts as a descriptive term for a characteristic of [knowing] reality and experience, not purely just the method.

Apart from the explanations of creation stage Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche that I think Cone, Magnus and others already shared, Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on the mind instructions of Khenpo Gangshar says something similar;
While in that state, your body is left to itself without fabrication, free and easy. 
That is the body of all the victorious ones. 
That is the essence of the creation stage.

[...]When we see the essence of the mind, are we at that point actually doing the creation stage of visualizing a deity? We are not, but the essence of the creation stage is the realization of the nature of all phenomena as they are. That is why this practice is the essence of the creation stage and why this is the body of all the victorious ones, even though we are not doing anything in particular with our body other than just letting it rest and relax. These are the benefits for the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2017 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
How do you know?

Crazywisdom said:
Bc his quote says so.

You know Cone, the Drikung guys shared we me Lawapa's Dakini Mahamudra. Milarepa used this. It's supposed to be their fastest method even in a half day. But I practiced it for 5 years. It so secret he said if I shared it he'd shoot me.  The key point of creation is instantaneous and without a doubt. The completion finishes with a seed syllable that you visualize in nonmeditation. If you can grok that. Or does it just appear as blessing? not so easy to say. So I totally get where you guys are coming from. But, while it's fast and equal and great, it's not the same thing as spontaneous appearances in DC like the day and dark practices.

conebeckham said:
That's nice.

There are indeed many profound practices that relate to creation stage, and related to completion stage with signs. Most people know very little about these things, and consider deity yoga as merely some sort of imaginary construct, or as a method of obtaining specific "goals" or mundane siddhis, etc.   With regard to the methods of Creation and Completion, and with regards to Paths outside the two stages,  I have transmissions and explanations, but I know only a hair's tip.  But I'm glad you've found something that you enjoy, and that you feel connected to, and that you feel brings benefit.


Malcolm wrote:
Creation stage is a constructed imaginary pure vision. As such, it is very far away from the meaning of the great perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2017 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This idea, that Madyamaka/prajnaoaramita path has same result as HYT is already directly contradicted by the Samputa Tantra.

Vasana said:
It's not a Tantra I have any familiarity with beyond a passing quote. Know which chapters?
From a PHD thesis on the first 4 chapters of the Samputa Tantra it mentions the 15th century scholar,  Mkhas grub rje who states, "The doctrine (dar ana)of all (four) sections of the tantras is Prasah­gika." I guess that's disputable?

Even so, what would the reasons then be for the many proclamations we find of their same underlying ground? It seems like more than just skillfull means for settling disputes or unifying splits but I don't know.

'This freedom from cogitation is the Mahamudra.
The freedom from extremes is the great Middle-Way.
Encompassing everything, it is also called the Great Perfection.
May i obtain confidence in this single reality that, once understood,
brings about all realizations.'- 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje

'It is the perfection of wisdom, the Middle Way.
Is it what pacifies proliferations and sufferings, the Great Seal.
It is the essential reality, the Great Perfection.
The primordially extinguished state, the basic reality,
it is the clear light, the mind's nature, the self-arisen wisdom [Yeshe],
Although it is labeled using many names, 
the meaning [of those systems] is one in nature.'- Longchenpa


Malcolm wrote:
Prajnaparamita as a path only results in 11th bhumi buddhahood. Lower tantra, according to this tantra only result in 12th bhumi buddhahood. These yanas do not comprehend all phenomena as the display of pristine consciousness and do not lead to the result called Vajradhara, the 13th  bhumi. Prajnaparamita, madhyamaka, and so on as names for reality are synonymous with Dzogchen, Mahamudra and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2017 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: Bon Dzogchen & Nyingma/Kagyu Dzogchen...same or different?
Content:


gzodzilpa said:
Hi,

I wasn't referring to rainbow bodies, though you are right to also point that out as for some reason that is a common misunderstanding on the web.

Look here:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=25145&p=382340&hilit=path+appearances#p382340

Malcolm wrote:
Most of the confusion here results from the fact that in the Great Perfection, the three kāyas are regarded as the path appearances, and not the result.

Marc said:
Hmmm... Interesting ! Thanks for pointing that out.

"The Three Kayas as appearances of the Path" is something I had heard before, but not to cancel out those at the level on the Fruition...
The context I heard it in was that of affirming / "proving" the necessity of the Path and its practice, based on the fact that the 3 Kayas were not the level on the Base, but "appearances of the Path"...

It would be interesting to have Malcolm deepening & clarifying this nuance...

Cheers
M

Malcolm wrote:
It is asserted in some early Dzogchen commentaries attributed to Vimalamitra that the three kayas do not exist in the result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2017 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Reynolds claims that Bonpos indeed argue that the fruit of Dzogchen excels that of the path of transformation.

And we know that the of transformation has a result that excels that of sutra.

One can find also arguments in ancient Buddhist Dzogchen commentaries that the practice of various yanas, apart from ati, lead only to various heavens where further practice is needed.

Vasana said:
Doesn't that contradict the usual comparisons of the fruit of Prajnaparamita, Madyamika ,Mahamudra and Dzogchen being alike?


Malcolm wrote:
This idea, that Madyamaka/prajnaoaramita path has same result as HYT is already directly contradicted by the Samputa Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2017 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Reynolds claims that Bonpos indeed argue that the fruit of Dzogchen excels that of the path of transformation.

And we know that the of transformation has a result that excels that of sutra.

One can find also arguments in ancient Buddhist Dzogchen commentaries that the practice of various yanas, apart from ati, lead only to various heavens where further practice is needed.

conebeckham said:
Whether one is practicing the stages of creation and completion or not; whether one successfully practices or not If one applies oneself--in the end, there is nothing within the limit of our experience which is beyond the stages of creation and completion.

Gyurme Kundrol said:
If this came from HH Getse Rinpoche I doubt he means that Dzogchen is somehow within the limits of this, or that Dzogchen is somehow bound to this.

Having heard him teach I can say that he definitely has taught at least one time that Dzogchen can be practiced in itself, by itself, by people who have no special requisites beforehand like Ngondro or mantra recitations and without involvement in creation and completion stage practice as a necessity for engaging Dzogchen. He never said of course that people shouldnt practice, he did nothing but encourage people to be humble and practice and generally said its a good idea to practice, but never said it is a must.

conebeckham said:
Again, I am not arguing method, per se, but looking at experience from the POV of a Two Stages model.  If you feel that Dzogchen is somehow outside the limit of the Two Stages, not as method, but as experience, you are in a sense arguing that the result of the Two Stages, or the "fruition," if you want look at this from a gradualist perspective, differs from the completely stable Dzogchen
I obviously have no way in which to know his true meaning and lack his ability in Dharma in every respect, but if I had to guess at a meaning here I would think he meant that since all phenomena arise from the same ground from which either the phenomena of Samsara or Nirvana arise, nothing we do, whether we succeed or not in doing it, moves from that ground. Creation and completion stage also never move from this- what one might call "the limits of our experience". In this sense experience refers to knowable phenomena and limits refers to the full range of that phenomena from the peak of mundane existence all the way to the grossest appearance of a physical body, all of which can be reified by conceptual mind and bifurcated as either the states of Samsara or Nirvana, all of which can be clung to and can act as a basis for generating karma. Unlike ultimate reality which falls outside of what you might call "limited" and "experience", since the nature of ultimate reality is endowed with the seven vajra qualities like immutability, indestructibility and so forth it is not really limited, and since it falls outside being part of the conceptual realm it is beyond experience. Ultimately all appearing phenomena are in the stage of "creation" and all dissolving phenomena are in the stage of "completion" and this is all thats ever been happening, willed or not, intentional or not, successful or not. All appearing phenomena never move from the space of ones own primordial awareness and so whether there is the appearance of a deity or of a cigarette butt, in either case its a self appearing, self arisen phenomena that is arising, abiding, and dissolving in the same way that all other knowable phenomena have always been doing.
I understand the meaning to be something like this, yes.   The only question I would ask is regarding your assertion, or assumption, that all "experience" is within the conceptual realm.  Certainly we reify experiences in conceptual thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
When we talk about them, yes.

When we practice, maybe--or perhaps not. Either way, there is nothing beyond the limits of creation and completion.  Whether we know it or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it certainly is a characteristic sarma view that Dzogchen is part of the completion stage. But this negates Dzogchen being an independent vehicle.

conebeckham said:
First, I am paraphrasing Kathok Getse Rinpoche, not really a "Sarmapa."

Second, I never said Dzogchen isn't an "independent Path."

Malcolm wrote:
We've been over this. Modern Nyingma is pretty Kadampified.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
You bet. And Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are asserting that both are conceptual.

conebeckham said:
When we talk about them, yes.

When we practice, maybe--or perhaps not. Either way, there is nothing beyond the limits of creation and completion.  Whether we know it or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it certainly is a characteristic sarma view that Dzogchen is part of the completion stage. But this negates Dzogchen being an independent vehicle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
Whether one is practicing the stages of creation and completion or not; whether one successfully practices or not If one applies oneself--in the end, there is nothing within the limit of our experience which is beyond the stages of creation and completion.


Malcolm wrote:
Even mahamudra?

conebeckham said:
You bet. And Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are asserting that both are conceptual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
Whether one is practicing the stages of creation and completion or not; whether one successfully practices or not If one applies oneself--in the end, there is nothing within the limit of our experience which is beyond the stages of creation and completion.


Malcolm wrote:
Even mahamudra?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Bon Dzogchen & Nyingma/Kagyu Dzogchen...same or different?
Content:
Stefos said:
Hi everyone,

What is the difference between the Bon Dzogchen lineage and the Nyingma/Kagyu Dzogchen lineage?

Is the Bon Tenzin W. Rinpoche teaches non Buddhist?

Thank you,
Stefos



Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is Dzogchen. No difference in meaning at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
muni said:
You've met Dzogchen teachings. You are practicing Dzogchen teachings. You don't need to worry about your position in samsara anymore.
But then is it of no importance whether there are Compassionate action to relieve the pain of a fellow? We see how the Bodhisattvas act for the welfare of all in simple ways, as helping them out of samsara as much as possible. How Buddhahood can be realized without trying/wishing to help fellows, not to leave them "alone" in dispair or distress of samsara?

Help is possible when the obscurations aren't, when perfect perception is, right? The Kindness of such help, we receive, is just incredible amazing!



Malcolm wrote:
Compassion is part of the basis of each and every sentient being. It functions naturally even in a state of obscuration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Aren't all Tantras essentially mind termas/pure visions?
Content:
ClearblueSky said:
Though there is a distinction made between these two, I'm not sure I actually understand the difference when it comes down to it. I'm particularly referring to "pure visions", which are often said to be received from deities (as opposed to something that was necessarily hidden by Padmasambhava to be found later), and they contain a practice (as opposed to someone just seeing a deity for example).

When I look at the lineages of early tantras, that are not considered termas, it appears the same way, e.g. something like: A primordial Buddha, to some Bodhisattva or deity, eventually to some historical human and so on.

Assuming neither have an unbroken oral lineage from Shakyamuni Buddha, they basically seem like the same thing. So other than their age, lineage, or possibly size... is there actually a difference?



Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
That is exactly what everybody else seems to be talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, then they are missing the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2017 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are some people, who because they have some understanding of emptiness, make this kind of mistake. However, this is not what I am talking about.

dzogchungpa said:
The following passage from ChNN's commentary on Longchenpa's "Advice From The Heart" seems relevant:
The Fifteenth Word of Advice

Proffering mindless talk on emptiness and disregarding cause and effect, 
You may think that non-action is the ultimate point of the Teaching; 
Yet to abandon the two accumulations will destroy the good fortune of spiritual practice. 
Integrate them both! This is my advice from the heart.

Some people who have only an intellectual understanding think that emptiness is the real nature of everything and say, ‘Everything is empty, so it does not matter whether we do good or bad’. Saying this, they disregard the relative level, the relationship between cause and effect. There are many people who have this attitude. Among the followers of Dzogchen many think that this teaching requires no limitations, and that they are free to do anything they like, and they actually live out that idea. However, this attitude amounts to disrespect toward the relationship of cause and effect. Why? We are not always in a state of emptiness; we simply have a knowledge of emptiness. We know with our intellect that everything is empty, but in reality, we eat and sleep and so on, and all these actions occur in the relative condition. In the relative condition we must give the proper consideration to the relationship between cause and effect. Disregarding that will bring many unwanted consequences for our future.

Moreover, in the Dzogchen teachings it is said that when one dwells in instant presence, in the continuation of that state, one does not need any effort nor any concepts. To apply effort or to harbor concepts at that time would be negative. For that reason, Dzogchen speaks of there being ‘nothing to do’ or ‘non-action’. This is different from thinking of oneself as a Dzogchen practitioner simply because one has an understanding that all is empty. That is just intellectual knowledge, and, on the pretext of that knowledge, believing that one is in a state of Dzogchen, one neglects the two accumulations of wisdom and merit.

Accumulation of merit means performing good actions—for example, cleaning the temple, placing flowers or lights before the statues of the buddhas, making various offerings, helping the poor people we meet. With these actions we accumulate merit.

Accumulation or increase of wisdom means, when time permits it, staying in a calm state or, if we have knowledge of our real nature, developing that knowledge. If we do not apply these two accumulations, our spiritual practice will not unfold in a perfect way. Thus, Longchenpa advises us that the relative condition and contemplation must not be separated but should go together. When we notice that we are not in a state of contemplation, we should try to make the best of the relative condition we are in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


Vasana said:
But it does lead to the conducive circumstances required to meet and practice the teachings that can lead to Buddhahood. Just as the mind purified of obscurations and samsaric seeds can help someone practice the teachings that can lead to Buddhahood with less obstacles and perhaps more clarity and other conducive mental states like inspiration and diligence.

Like someone said earlier, unless you're non-distracted  in Rigpa, or the natural state in any given moment, you're in ma-Rigpa. If you're distracted and in ma-Rigpa, you might as well be enacting the liberative karmas that aren't extinguished until complete Buddhahood. If we're not in the natural state or generating conditioned virtue, the chances are we're fostering distraction and negative acts. I get that on the one hand, these aren't causal realizations , but we have our relative condition of body speech and mind that can be influenced positively or negatively while on the path which can't be separated from the stabilisation of the meditation/result.

Malcolm wrote:
You've met Dzogchen teachings. You are practicing Dzogchen teachings. You don't need to worry about your position in samsara anymore.

Vasana said:
I think it all still applies. Practicing still means stabilizing non distraction which is not guaranteed if you let your dualistic habits run wild without recognition. People  can find relative purification and accumulative practices helpful in shaping overall mind state to life & practice.

Then there's the need/benefits of upholding the regular Samayas if not abiding in the knowledge of the profound samayas. Not to mention the consequences of not doing so.

Malcolm wrote:
It's all just hope and fear, man. I would address your points at more length but I am on a road trip, replying from a phone. But in brief, you have received the teachings, you have understood the profound point, you should be confident in that. There is literally nothing else you have to do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Hashang's view is actually profound[Extracted from a previous thread]
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW Khenpo Palden Sherab has a book on the subject.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Hashang's view is actually profound[Extracted from a previous thread]
Content:
tingdzin said:
In Nubchen Sangye Yeshe's now-well-known work, he lists the profundity of approaches in ascending order as Sutrayana (presumably if not actually represented by Kamalashila), Ch'an (or what he understood as Ch'an, represented by the Hva Shang), the mantra path, and Dzogchen. The whole subject in all its nuances has been done to death in the scholarly literature by people who can read Sanskrit, Tibetan, and Chinese, and if you are really interested in the subject, you might start by reading some of that, because, as you are aware, internet posters on the subject generally have an axe to grind, and discussions usually dissolve into self-justifying polemics very quickly. If you like, I could recommend some books and articles to get you started. Van Schaik's book, which was recommended by the poster above while I was writing, would have been on my list.

Malcolm wrote:
Very few of those scholars have any practical experience with the subject matter. They too often have axes to grind, one way or another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Hashang's view is actually profound[Extracted from a previous thread]
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...Hashang's view is much more profound the Kamalashila's. But centuries of misrepresentation and politics have obscured this fact.

Brunelleschi said:
This is very interesting. Could you please expound as to why it is that Hashang's view is actually more profound?

What I had gathered from the standard accounts of the debate was that Hashang's view was based on the path of renuciation and hence, from a Tibetan Buddhist-perspective less profound than a Tantric perspective (path of transformation). Do I interpret you correctly if I say that Hashang's view was actually a part of/or closer to the path of self-liberation(Great Perfection)?

I'm not interested in polemics. I'm genuinely interested.


Relevant prior threads:
Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=3886


Malcolm wrote:
The primary difference, practically speaking, is that Kamalashila's method is to meditate the two truths alternately; Hashangs method is to meditate them simultaneously. Nubchen states that the former is based on provisional sutras; the latter, definitive sutras.  Nubchen further clarifies that while mahayoga is gradual, since it possesses direct introduction it is actually more rapid than Chan. But because it's view is causal it is inferior to the approach of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They may such things, but then they turn around and insist the their students must gather the two accumulations, practice the paths of renunciation and transformation and so on. That seems strange to me.

Grigoris said:
It is probably because they can see that their students are not going to achieve Buddhahood in this lifetime and so they give them the tools and means to deal with things for their next few hundred-thousand lifetimes.

Let's face it:  very few people "get it" during direct introduction and of those that "get it" even fewer still can stabilise it.  That means that Dzogchen essentially becomes a doorway into Vajrayana Yoga practice as the student requires something to stop them slipping into further delusion.  The two accumulations are that "something".  They teach the two accumulations out of compassion for their students.

Nothing strange about that.

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


heart said:
Could be he said that, but are you showing respect now? He also said recently that we accumulate merit whenever we can with dedication.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Accumulating merit is fine, it just does not lead to buddhahood.

Vasana said:
But it does lead to the conducive circumstances required to meet and practice the teachings that can lead to Buddhahood. Just as the mind purified of obscurations and samsaric seeds can help someone practice the teachings that can lead to Buddhahood with less obstacles and perhaps more clarity and other conducive mental states like inspiration and diligence.

Like someone said earlier, unless you're non-distracted  in Rigpa, or the natural state in any given moment, you're in ma-Rigpa. If you're distracted and in ma-Rigpa, you might as well be enacting the liberative karmas that aren't extinguished until complete Buddhahood. If we're not in the natural state or generating conditioned virtue, the chances are we're fostering distraction and negative acts. I get that on the one hand, these aren't causal realizations , but we have our relative condition of body speech and mind that can be influenced positively or negatively while on the path which can't be separated from the stabilisation of the meditation/result.

Malcolm wrote:
You've met Dzogchen teachings. You are practicing Dzogchen teachings. You don't need to worry about your position in samsara anymore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


heart said:
I see, but it isn't one or the other. Even if you have recognised the natural state gathering the two accumulations is still a good idea. That is also a lot easier if you recognised the natural state.

/magnus



Malcolm wrote:
Once, when explaining the dedication of merit that refers to the two  accumulations, ChNN said we recite it out of respect, but we (meaning Dzogchen practitioners) don't believe it.

heart said:
Could be he said that, but are you showing respect now? He also said recently that we accumulate merit whenever we can with dedication.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Accumulating merit is fine, it just does not lead to buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


heart said:
There is something strange in that statement. It is like you don't believe other masters say Dzogchen is primary. My experience don't correspond with that at all.

I also never heard a Nyingma master say that Dzogchen is a result acquired from causes. Where do you get this things from?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
They may such things, but then they turn around and insist the their students must gather the two accumulations, practice the paths of renunciation and transformation and so on. That seems strange to me.

To each their own.

heart said:
I see, but it isn't one or the other. Even if you have recognised the natural state gathering the two accumulations is still a good idea. That is also a lot easier if you recognised the natural state.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps, if you doubt your experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


heart said:
There is something strange in that statement. It is like you don't believe other masters say Dzogchen is primary. My experience don't correspond with that at all.

I also never heard a Nyingma master say that Dzogchen is a result acquired from causes. Where do you get this things from?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
They may such things, but then they turn around and insist the their students must gather the two accumulations, practice the paths of renunciation and transformation and so on. That seems strange to me.

To each their own.

heart said:
I see, but it isn't one or the other. Even if you have recognised the natural state gathering the two accumulations is still a good idea. That is also a lot easier if you recognised the natural state.

/magnus



Malcolm wrote:
Once, when explaining the dedication of merit that refers to the two  accumulations, ChNN said we recite it out of respect, but we (meaning Dzogchen practitioners) don't believe it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


heart said:
I just have to ask, the fact that ChNNR just finished a 10 day long drubchen with "sadhanas, malas, vajras and bells" doing his own Mandarava practice don't make you feel a little uncomfortable about that statement?

I think Florin made the point earlier, quoting from the Kunjed Gyalpo, that practicing lower yanas will block your to access to Dzogchen for a very long time. But perhaps that is only when other teacher do it?

I don't mean any disrespect but it really makes no sense to me.

/magnus



Malcolm wrote:
Mandarava is a secondary practice, and malas, vajras and bells are extraneous even with respect to such practices. The ritual instruments are mainly a collective practice thing. So, I fell no discomfort making such statements since ChNN has made such statements countless thousands of times.

As far as Florin,s comment goes, if someone think that the state of Dzogchen is a result they will acquire from causes, this indeed will block them.

heart said:
There is something strange in that statement. It is like you don't believe other masters say Dzogchen is primary. My experience don't correspond with that at all.

I also never heard a Nyingma master say that Dzogchen is a result acquired from causes. Where do you get this things from?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
They may such things, but then they turn around and insist the their students must gather the two accumulations, practice the paths of renunciation and transformation and so on. That seems strange to me.

To each their own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
You have, however, said https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=23955#p372457:

Malcolm wrote:
.

Yup.

heart said:
I just have to ask, the fact that ChNNR just finished a 10 day long drubchen with "sadhanas, malas, vajras and bells" doing his own Mandarava practice don't make you feel a little uncomfortable about that statement?

I think Florin made the point earlier, quoting from the Kunjed Gyalpo, that practicing lower yanas will block your to access to Dzogchen for a very long time. But perhaps that is only when other teacher do it?

I don't mean any disrespect but it really makes no sense to me.

/magnus



Malcolm wrote:
Mandarava is a secondary practice, and malas, vajras and bells are extraneous even with respect to such practices. The ritual instruments are mainly a collective practice thing. So, I feel no discomfort making such statements since ChNN has made such statements countless thousands of times.

As far as Florin,s comment goes, if someone think that the state of Dzogchen is a result they will acquire from causes, this indeed will block them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I never stated that my teacher is the only teacher who teaches Dzogchen "correctly." I just said that he is the most interesting teacher of Dzogchen for all kinds of reasons that I do not think you can really understand.

Grigoris said:
I think you will find that any one of us here will make the same statement about our teachers too, which kind of cancels out the relevance of the statement, really...


Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you really comprehend ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2017 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re:
Content:
smcj said:
Yep. And Trungpa is the only lama to teach Kagyu Dharma the way it is supposed to be taught.



Malcolm wrote:
I never stated that my teacher is the only teacher who teaches Dzogchen "correctly." I just said that he is the most interesting teacher of Dzogchen for all kinds of reasons that I do not think you can really understand.

dzogchungpa said:
You have, however, said https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=23955#p372457:

Malcolm wrote:
While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.
.

Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
smcj said:
Yep. And Trungpa is the only lama to teach Kagyu Dharma the way it is supposed to be taught.



Malcolm wrote:
I never stated that my teacher is the only teacher who teaches Dzogchen "correctly." I just said that he is the most interesting teacher of Dzogchen for all kinds of reasons that I do not think you can really understand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
smcj said:
I'm starting to think these 'caveat emptors' are disclaimers more for your own posts and 'buyers'.
If you read the signature at the bottom of all my posts you'll see that everything I write always has a disclaimer. As far as I'm concerned the best reaction to any of my posts is if it precipitates some contact with a traditional lineage holding teacher. Of course that includes Nyingmapas, hence my disagreement with Malcolm's dismissiveness.

Think of it this way; what if I was dismissive of all Kagyu lamas except Trungpa? There are many people that feel that way. None of them happen to post here. But if I were to express the sentiment that only Trungpa has the Kagyu teachings right, don't you think I should expect to get called on it every now and then?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't state that ChNN was the only person teaching Dzogchen, nor did I denigrate any of other teachers who are. For the most part, however, they do not interest me very much. All I stated that ChNN was the only person teaching Dzogchen right now that I find interesting.

As for my opinion about Tibetan Buddhism's moribund state of development, it is a sentiment I have expressed many times before. There hasn't been a single interesting development in the intellectual history of Tibetan Buddhism since the 15th century. Since the 15th century, the intellectual history of Tibetan Buddhism has been one merely of institutional consolidation, money, and power. This should not be construed as an argument that there have been no interesting authors, teachers and so on. It is a statement that even despite the fact that there have most certainly been interesting authors since the 15th century, ( Ganden Chophel comes to mind) and doubtlessly, realized masters, there has been virtually no development in the intellectual history of Tibetan Buddhism.

ChNN's chief role has been the experiential revival of Dzogchen traditions that had fallen into obscurity, as well as opening the West to the broad range of the teachings of the Great Perfection and the ancient pre-modern Nyingma tradition — not just Yeshe Lama and texts like it that form the main body of what Tibetans practice as Dzogchen in the present day.

In Tibet, of course, we had my teacher, the late Khenpo Jigme Phuntsog, who is perhaps one of the pre-eminent interpreters of Longchenpas ouvre; Khenpo Munsel and his students, who took great pains to gather and publish all he could find of obscure Nyingma texts and publish them in what we call "The Very Large Kama"; Dudjom Rinpoche before him who edited whatever he could find into what we call the "Large Kama."

And, BTW, I never called ChNN an "outlier" — that is a term you have insisted on introducing the conversation in your quixotic attempt to explain tradition of which you have little understanding (for example, your silly attempt to force gzhan stong down everyone's throat as "orthodox Nyingma view."). In other words, my friend, you really have no idea what you are talking about. But I am sure that my admonition will not prevent you from continuing to share with us the effluvia of misguided logorrhea to which you are prone when it comes to the subject of the Nyingma school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 12:44 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Vasana said:
I still think you're still reading too much in to that sentence personally. Voicing a preference to follow Garab Dorje doesn't equate to disparaging the Nyingma system in the slightest.

smcj said:
Or maybe it does.
Malcolm wrote:
You really have no idea how much early Nyingma ideas completely contradict the modern, institutionally-sanitized, homogenized, intellectually-moribund Tibetan Buddhism we see at present.

smcj said:
However he does place ChNN into context this way:
Malcolm wrote:
It is these texts that interest me. Pre-15th century, very interesting; post 15th century, increasingly less so with every passing century. (Except of course, the writings and teachings of ChNN. But he is really old school.)

smcj said:
Suffice it to say that he sees ChNN as being an outlier--which he likes.

Caveat Emptor.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a Kagyu. Dzogchen is none of your business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
If it was not for the institutionalisation of the Nyingmapa, I don't know how many of the precious teachings that have currently have been handed down to us would be in existence.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the institutionalization of Nyingma is has lead to a precarious existence for many teachings. Older more obscure ones get left on the shelf in the favor of the latest terma craze — even Mipham complains about this at length.

For example, Longchenpa lists a total of 84 texts that accompanied the 17 tantras — only 10 of these have been located and published. Hopefully more exist moldering in some library, but for now, we have a paucity of material from the early period of Nyingma, especially Dzogchen — but we have enough. It is these texts that interest me. Pre-15th century, very interesting; post 15th century, increasingly less so with every passing century. (Except of course, the writings and teachings of ChNN. But he is really old school.)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: what the buddha didn't teach
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Do you find teachings about chakra anywhere apart from tantra or Buddhist yoga?

Grigoris said:
Do you find teachings about karma anywhere apart from Buddhism?


Malcolm wrote:
HInduism, Jainism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
conebeckham said:
By this comment, you are differentiating between Nyingma and Dzogchen?

Grigoris said:
He already did that about 5-6 pages ago, calling everyone (except himself, the only true Dzogchenpa and follower of Garab Dorje) a Nyingma modernist.
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=25216&start=180#p383762

Malcolm wrote:
No, Greg. That is fake news. What I mean by modern Nyingma is the rise of the Nyingma school in general as an institutional entity. This happened in the 17th century. Prior to this, Nyingma had only one major monastic institution founded by Phagmo Drupa's younger brother, Dampa Desheg, in Eastern Tibet during the 12th century, and expanded in 1656.

Dorje Drag in 1659, and Mindroling in 1676 were established under the patronage of the Fifth Dalai Lama; Palyul was founded in 1665; Dzogchen in 1685 and Shechen, in 1735.

Basically, prior to the 17th century, Nyingma had no major institutions, unlike Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug, Jonang, or even Bon. Prior to this Nyingma persisted primarily in family lineages and on the fringes of other monastic institutions.

The person who benefitted the Nyingmapas the most, as can be seen from the above, was the Fifth Dalai Lama. He was responsible for the rise of modern Nyingma.

This has both positive and negative aspects. The positive aspect is that of course Nyingma received major funding and patronage.

The negative aspect is that by the 19th century, Nyingma had lost much of its iconoclastic flavor and has come to resemble the Sarma schools far more than it is different from them. I consider this the Kadampafication of Nyingma (and of course, we will all recall Milarepa was no fan of the Kadamapas, calling Dromton a demon who had crippled the Dharma in Tibet because of his control over Atisha).

Indeed, one of the reasons Longchenpa became so popular, apart from his systematization of the Great Perfection literature of the Nyinthig, is that after lingering in total obscurity for nearly three hundred years, as a result of his Sakya/Kadampa education, he had created an amazing graduated curriculum in the Sems nyid ngal so cycle. This has become the basis for the institutional presentation of Nyingma teachings today, especially as a result of the revival of his popularity by Jigme Lingpa. Ironically, Longchenpa himself was no fan of gradualism in a real sense, writing in defense of Hashang Mahāyāna. Longchenpa also largely remained aloof from the polemical battles that later Nyingmapas waded into with gusto in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries.

The adoption Sakya, Gelug, or Kagyu monastic curricula in these monasteries has also impacted Nyingma in the sense that modern Nyingmapas are trained in a lam rim curriculum heavily influenced by the Kadampa school. Hence, I distinguish modern Nyingma from the wilder, woolier, more interesting, and more heterodox Nyingma of Nubchen, Rongzom, early Nyingthig and other earlier trends of the Great Perfection. You really have no idea how much early Nyingma ideas completely contradict the modern, institutionally-sanitized, homogenized, intellectually-moribund Tibetan Buddhism we see at present.

We can see an encroaching homogenization of Nyingma which really begins during 17tn century, once the Nyingmapas began to have a coherent institutional stake in the Tibetan games of power, prestige and influence.

I have to say Greg, for an Anarchist, you certainly are a staunch supporter of the religious hierarchy of Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


conebeckham said:
Or for those who misunderstand Dzogchen.  It is presented that way, as well. But it's all a fable, as is much that has been written about Milarepa.  Nevertheless, all Tibetan Buddhist practitioners are happy to claim some relationship to him as a lineal ancestor, or practitioner of their system --except, perhaps, the Sakyapas.


Malcolm wrote:
And Nyingma

conebeckham said:
By this comment, you are differentiating between Nyingma and Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Nyingmapas do not really claim Mila as one of their own, despite the fact that he passed on some important Nyingma lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
sherabpa said:
Milarepa's encounter with Dzogchen is a cautionary tale for all would-be simultaneists!

Grigoris said:
His encounter with Dzogchen is a cautionary tale for all those that believe Dzogchen is the one-and-only path to liberation.

conebeckham said:
Or for those who misunderstand Dzogchen.  It is presented that way, as well. But it's all a fable, as is much that has been written about Milarepa.  Nevertheless, all Tibetan Buddhist practitioners are happy to claim some relationship to him as a lineal ancestor, or practitioner of their system --except, perhaps, the Sakyapas.


Malcolm wrote:
And Nyingma


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2017 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
sherabpa said:
Milarepa's encounter with Dzogchen is a cautionary tale for all would-be simultaneists!

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Mila had ten Nyingma gurus before he met Marpa. I think the account of Mila meeting with Rongton is clearly a political story meant to denigrate Dzogchen teachings, reflective of the uncertainty about Dzogchen among Tibetans because of various log sngags sun phyung texts in circulation at that time influential in Kadampa circles. In fact Mila received Dzogchen teachings from at least two teachers.

Also keep in mind that Mila is universally regarded as an emanation of Mañjuśrīmitra in Kagyu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: man ngag sde question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the Bon tradition, Dzogchen is much more widely mingled with its literature overall.

gzodzilpa said:
Ah that makes sense.

A little more if you'll indulge me, I am trying to get a better grip on the different presentations of kun gzhi in Dzogchen.

Okay in the man ngag sde system, the gzhi is a set of generic qualities of an individual consciousness. When the neutral awareness latent in this is ignorant of the gzhi's true condition, it stirs the vayu which in turn leads to the arising of the kun gzhi, and from there to the kun gzhi rnam shes and so forth. Assuming I have that right, it is the kun gzhi that is the repository of traces (or is it the kun gzhi rnam shes or both)? Furthermore since here kun gzhi basically equates to ignorance, it indeed dissolves upon realization?

Malcolm wrote:
In man ngag lde, the kun zhi is another name for mind, and is distinct from the gzhi. Bonpo texts do not seem to make a distinction between gzhi and kun gzhi, at least not in the ZZNG. In ZZNG, kun gzhi is equated with byang chub sems. For example, the the ZZNG the kun gzhi is defined as having the nature of the three kāyas.

In the Rig pa rang shar, however, those who identify the kun gzhi as dharmakāya are strongly negated.

So there is a difference in terminology, with ZZNG using kun gzhi where man ngag sde uses gzhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: man ngag sde question
Content:


gzodzilpa said:
Thanks. So one could say that the commentary that mentions this in reference to Dzogchen practice and alludes to the Six Essential Points text is providing a maha view on ati practice? For example in JLA's The Six Lamps, the section on complimentary instructions pg. 127.

Malcolm wrote:
Bon does not make use of the division of maha, anu, and ati. The comparison does not apply and it is best not to mix Bonpo doxologies with Buddhist ones.


gzodzilpa said:
I didn't think it made use of it, and it is informative to know that an approximate comparison does not apply. Thanks for the exchange Lapon, your time is much appreciated.


Malcolm wrote:
In the Bon tradition, Dzogchen is much more widely mingled with its literature overall. Of course, it is also considered a separate independent path, the path of self-liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: man ngag sde question
Content:
gzodzilpa said:
In the man ngag sde system is it also held that thigles enter and dissolve in the central channel, or is that considered a deviation?



Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen practice is not based on moving and dissolving bindus.

gzodzilpa said:
Thanks. So one could say that the commentary that mentions this in reference to Dzogchen practice and alludes to the Six Essential Points text is providing a maha view on ati practice? For example in JLA's The Six Lamps, the section on complimentary instructions pg. 127.

Malcolm wrote:
Bon does not make use of the division of maha, anu, and ati. The comparison does not apply and it is best not to mix Bonpo doxologies with Buddhist ones.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: man ngag sde question
Content:
gzodzilpa said:
In the man ngag sde system is it also held that thigles enter and dissolve in the central channel, or is that considered a deviation?



Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen practice is not based on moving and dissolving bindus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
smcj said:
Marpa taught Mila Mahamudra. Mila taught Mahamudra.

Just accept it.



Malcolm wrote:
Marpa was not Mila's only teacher. Just accept it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:





Malcolm wrote:
This is based in the principle found in the Sandhivyākaraṇa Tantra:
The single beautiful vajra phrase
becomes many different ones
according the divisions in the inclinations of migrating beings.

tomamundsen said:
How wonderful!

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very common idea. For example. according to the Four Medicine Tantras, when Medicine Buddha taught the four retinues, he emanted the teacher Rigpa'i Yeshe, who appeared to the four retinues— the buddhists, devas, rishis, and nonbuddhists — each perceived their own teacher teaching the four tantras, but heard them as texts in their own tradition. In other words if a Buddha is teaching Dharma, a Christian will hear the gospels and a Muslim, the Koran.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2017 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Periods in Buddhist Cosmology
Content:
Jyotish said:
And for that many years there was no evolution or change in terms of human consciousness(intelligence), merits,  etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist point of view is that at the beginning of the Mahābrahma eon,  lifespans could not be counted. As the merit of beings decline and afflictions increase, the lifespan drops to 10,000,000 years, then to 100,000, 80,000, 70,000, 60,000, 10,000, 5,000, 1000, 500, 300 and finally 100 years, our present age.

So basically, the Buddhist account is one of continued degeneration, and things will get worse from here on out. There is another point, which is that based on certain conditions, according to Dzogchen tantras, the length of the Buddha's teachings in Jambudvipa itself are divided into three periods which last a total of 15 million years. During the first period, the primary mode of practice is making offerings to the images of the buddhas and so on. This period, called the period of the doctrine of the body, lasts 7.5 million years. The period of the doctrine of speech lasts five million years, and during this time, recitation and deity yoga are the main practices to follow. In the final 2.5 million years, the doctrine of mind, only samadhi is effective. The four yugas last 3,456,000 years. Thus, it could be argued that, from a Dzogchen point of view, at this time only samadhi is an effective means of liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Periods in Buddhist Cosmology
Content:


Dharmic said:
The term used in the Sūtra is saṃkṣobha.

Malcolm wrote:
The Sanskrit term for the five degenerations is pañcakaṣāyāḥ.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Periods in Buddhist Cosmology
Content:


Jyotish said:
So when these Buddhist texts say end of kali yuga, can you possibly say when they say this ends?and for last 432,000 years we have been on this kali yuga and all the Buddhas who were born in this time are also said to  be of kali yuga? And for that many years there was no evolution or change in terms of human consciousness(intelligence), merits,  etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
It ends when the lifespan of human beings drops to ten years, we still have to go through the age of disease and famine and the age of weapons— this is when human beings lifespan drops to ten years. These are all parts of the Kāli Yuga.

Buddhist texts measure time periods mainly in terms of the life spans of human beings.

Jyotish said:
If they mention kali yuga, do these  Buddhist sources mentioned  also the dvapara yuga, satya yuga and treat yuga?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. all four yugas are included in one day of Brahma.

Jyotish said:
What should our attitude be towards commentary on this kind of subject? Because for example kalachakra tantra apparently offers a model of the physical universe that edward henning says is not true although that was taken literally.  Like things that just don't match up astronomically.

Malcolm wrote:
Henning said the opposite, he said it was impossible that the Kālacakra authors took the Meru Cosmology in the Kālacakra literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Anybody practicing a Dzogchen Path is not practicing Dzogchen. I think Malcolm (being a Dzogchen purist) will agree.

Malcolm wrote:
This is facile. Of course there is a Dzogchen path. What does that mean? It means that Dzogchen has its own view, its own meditation, and its own conduct. You will not find those in Mahāyoga nor in Anuyoga.

Grigoris said:
Broad, sweeping and un-nuanced generalisations tend to be.  You should go back and read some of your statements and judge them in the same light as mine.

Malcolm wrote:
No thanks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Periods in Buddhist Cosmology
Content:
Jyotish said:
Malcolm has already clarified that degenerate age doesn't mean kali yuga at all rather that dharma declines every 500 years .

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say this. I said that the five degenerations are related to another idea as well as the idea that the Buddha was the Buddha of the Kāli Yuga. Please refer to my post above which is sourced in Indian texts on the subject matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Periods in Buddhist Cosmology
Content:
Jyotish said:
Debatable issue. But turns out anyways that when they say degenerate age they don't mean kali yuga or such. So I would look to other traditional and more reliable sources oabout this and there are many Hindu yogis who give astronomical reasoning as to why this is dvapara yuga which I would trust unless there were texts in buddha dharma strictly saying otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist system of understanding the Kāli Yuga is found in the Saddharmasmṛty-upasthāna Sūtra. It is defined by the lifespan of human beings:
In the Kāli Yuga, the very longest lifespan of human beings in Jambudvipa is one hundred years.
In the Kālacakra commentary, Padmani-nāma-pañjikā, the Kāli Yuga is characterized by the five degenerations:
The so called "Kāli Yuga" is the time of the five degenerations.


And:
Through the power of the Kāli Yuga, the life span of human beings is one hundred years.
The Madhyamaka commentary, Saṃskṛtāsaṃskṛtaviniścaya states:
A long time after the parinirvana of Krakucchanda, at the end of the Kāli Yuga, our teacher, the Tathāgata called Śākyamuni arose in the world.
Finally, the Amarakoṣaṭīkākāmadhenu states the Kāli Yuga lasts 432,000 human years. We are at the end of the that period of time, according to all Buddhist sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Anybody practicing a Dzogchen Path is not practicing Dzogchen. I think Malcolm (being a Dzogchen purist) will agree.

Malcolm wrote:
This is facile. Of course there is a Dzogchen path. What does that mean? It means that Dzogchen has its own view, its own meditation, and its own conduct. You will not find those in Mahāyoga nor in Anuyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Really?  You don't know Dzogchen masters that teach the Four Noble Truths (for example)?

conebeckham said:
Oh, they may teach it, but they will say it is not the "Path of Dzogchen."

Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche said:
When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo.


Malcolm wrote:
This is based in the principle found in the Sandhivyākaraṇa Tantra:
The single beautiful vajra phrase
becomes many different ones
according the divisions in the inclinations of migrating beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I do remember that Khenpo Ngagchung kind of goes off in his comments on the Guru Yoga section of WoMPT about how devotion to the Guru is absolutely the most important practice in Dzogchen, and how this is a somewhat special characteristic of Dzogchen, at least in the sense of completely relying on that.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure. But there are two kinds of devotion. One is based on mind, the other is based on pristine consciousness. The latter does not resemble what is commonly brought to mind when the word devotion.

dzogchungpa said:
Well, that is an interesting distinction and I would like to learn more about it. I understand that 'devotion' may not be a really accurate translation here, but in the English translation of that section there are several instances of variations on the phrase "pray with devotion", e.g. from the subsection on Atiyoga:
What then is the most important thing here? It is to pray to the teacher with such devotion that we see him as a Buddha. If we do so, the wisdom of realization will take birth in our minds.
Are you saying then that there is a kind of prayer based on pristine consciousness? Perhaps there is, but it seems to me that would not be something beginners could really do.


Malcolm wrote:
I am saying that in this instance Khenpo Ngachung's point is not particularly profound or unconventional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Vasana said:
Which is always worth reiterating but that doesn't discount the technical nuances concerning Maha , Anu & Ati that Malcolm and others have bought up. With that being said, I also agree with Magnus in that these practices can be best approached if you've already discovered the natural state. Sometimes it's seen as a deviation to practice in that way, where as at other times and for other people, they can be a useful method for making the mind and voice 'supple' enough to stabilize the natural state more readily.

Grigoris said:
I think that people that rant and rave against the Yoga's have failed a)to understand the reasoning behind these practices and b)to understand that they may currently be in the position to forgo these practices because they have already practiced them (either in this lifetime or in previous one's).

Anybody that believes that the Yoga's are somehow seperate to Dzogchen, has failed miserably in understanding Dzogchen.

I imagine b) occurs because as Westerners we have not been raised to naturally consider that where we are now, is the consequence of countless previous lifetimes of effort.

Malcolm wrote:
I will restate what I already said: Dzogchen is an independent path that has its own theory, empowerments, and methods of practice that do not involve anything in the eight lower vehicles, i.e., the paths of renunciation and transformation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2017 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, apparently Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's main practice was indeed a form of guru yoga, so what was up with that? Did he not understand what you are saying here? Seriously, I find this kind of confusing.

Malcolm wrote:
I highly doubt anything written down in words was JKW's main practice.

dzogchungpa said:
Fair enough. I do remember that Khenpo Ngagchung kind of goes off in his comments on the Guru Yoga section of WoMPT about how devotion to the Guru is absolutely the most important practice in Dzogchen, and how this is a somewhat special characteristic of Dzogchen, at least in the sense of completely relying on that.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure. But there are two kinds of devotion. One is based on mind, the other is based on pristine consciousness. The latter does not resemble what is commonly brought to mind when the word devotion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Well, apparently Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's main practice was indeed a form of guru yoga, so what was up with that? Did he not understand what you are saying here? Seriously, I find this kind of confusing.

Malcolm wrote:
I highly doubt anything written down in words was JKW's main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
My practice is that of the Nyingtik and you might think it is inferior...

Malcolm wrote:
I honestly do not understand why people take this issue personally.

And why would I think Nyingthig is inferior? Which Nyingthig? You mean Chetsun Nyingthig? I don't think any such thing.

What I do know is that people, Tibetans included, get attached to this lineage, and that terma cycle, forgetting the whole thing is rooted in the Kama tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
We talked about this a lot in the past. I find it very helpful to do sahanas and guru yogas and you don't get it.
The sadhanas and guru yogas don't surpass the natural state they just adorn it and continuously inspire me in my practice.

Malcolm wrote:
I do get it.

But from my point of view, it is like having an absolutely-beautiful, natural, crystal diamond that is perfect in every way, and thinking that one has to paint some flowers on it to make it prettier.

What I am also saying is that sadhanas and so on are not part of the main practices taught in the three series of Dzogchen. And as Florin rightly notes, those who think one can approach the Great Perfection through mahāyoga and anuyoga have a flawed perspective.

If one is going to take the indirect approach, it has to be done as Mipham clarifies:
If one meditates generating the thought that the [three] samadhis and the [four] mudras are dharmatā and therefore are not different, the ultimate awakened mind will arise. If one actualizes the meditation, one realizes that all phenomena do not exist apart from one’s mind. The accumulations are gathered and obscurations are purified because of that meditation. One becomes realized because one’s continuum is blessed by the deity of pristine consciousness.
But frankly, this approach is more trouble than it is worth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
Now you got me confused, isn't Guru Yoga a main Dzogchen practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not. The main Dzogchen practice is the direct perception of your own state. Even guru yoga is a practice that works with mind, rather than pristine consciousness -- even Ati guru yoga. Thus, guru yoga is a method related to the second phrase of Garab Dorje, "decide one thing/remain without doubt." One uses guru yoga, or rushan, etc., to introduce oneself to the mind essence over and over as many times as one needs until one has attained some stability in recognizing it and sustaining that recognition.

Once you have "decided on one thing/no longer remain in doubt", then you do not remain passive, you shift your focus to "continue in the confidence of liberation/continue in that state," relying principally on the primary methods of the Great Perfection found in so called "man ngag lde," trekchö and thögal.

heart said:
If your practice centers around this recognition how could it possibly be a deviation no matter what Yana it formally belongs to?

Malcolm wrote:
If your practice centers around this recognition, what else could you possibly need to do? What guru yoga, deity practice, and so on can surpass that point? This does not mean you are forbidden from doing any practices from the eight lower yānas— after all, we have various relative needs and requirements such as long life, health, wealth, removal of obstacles, etc. It just means that one does not have to do any of them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What I was griping about is being passaive-agressively poo-pooed by someone for sometimes using "lower practices" when necessary...

Grigoris said:
I feel that the "you shouldn't do this" fundamentalism that is displayed by some around here is as boring and off-putting as the "you have to do this" fundamentalism of others.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, of someone claims they are a Jungian analyst, but instead is practicing DBT and calling it Jungian analysis, one would call it blameworthy. Likewise, if someone is claiming to teach Dzogchen, but instead they teach the methods of Mahā and Anuyoga and call this "Dzogchen," one should call it blameworthy. Most Nyingma teachers do not do this. But there are some who do, and one should be aware that the situation these days is similar to merchants who show beef, but sell horse meat instead. Finally, just because some sadhana has really pretty Dzogchen words like "ka dag," "lhun grub," etc., does not mean that sadhana actually belongs to Dzogchen teachings. A case in point is the Chetsun Nyingthig. The Chetsun Nyingthig's actual Dzogchen instructions are included only in a very short section at the very end of the root text. The rest of it is devoted to discussing the empowerment, the ngondro practice, the sadhana of Chetsun, and so on. It is a wonderful practice, excellent in every way. But when you are practicing some sadhana reciting mantras, you are practicing the two stages, not Dzogchen. This does not mean the Chetsun Nyinthig sucks, does not have blessings (whatever that means) and so on. It means that in that system, when you have finished the two stages connected with the practice of Chetsun, then you move on to actual Dzogchen preliminaries and the main practice of Dzogchen. The main emphasis of the Chetsun Nyingthig is the Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra. It is very profound. But the main practice of Dzogchen is more profound, as Vimalamitra would agree.

My point is simply that people should have a very clear, formal understanding of the differences between this and that yāna, so they know what they are doing any why. This is the reason why there is a detailed discussion of the nine yānas.

Some people like to follow the modern Nyingma system. I prefer to follow Garab Dorje. We are all free to do as we like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro...

Grigoris said:
So now, according to you, the various Dzogchen lineage ngondro are of no value?  So Dudlom Lingpa did not know what he was doing or talking about when he taught/outlined the Dudjom Tersar nogndro?


Malcolm wrote:
I never said they were of no value. Purification practices have their place.I will say however that Dudjom Tersar Ngondro, Longchen Nyingthig Ngondro, the "Semde" Ngondro by Sogdogpa Lodo Gyaltsenn, etc. are not Dzogchen practice, per se.  These are elaborate Guru Yogas based in Mahāyoga, since one takes the four empowerments. There is absolutely no difference between practicing the "tantric" ngondro of one school and that of another school apart from lineage.

To use another example, from the time of Dzeng Dharmabodhi, the practice of Heruka Ngondzog Gyalpo has been associated with the so called Longde teachings. But no one thinks practicing Ngondzog Gyalpo's sadhana is Longde practice, even if, in order to be introduced to Longde teachings this empowerment is indispensible since this is how the transmission of Longde has been passed on since the time of Dzeng. But before Dzeng, it was not the case that Longde was ever associated with any practice belonging to the two stages. And even if one receives this empowerment, there is no reason to practice that sadhana unless you are planning to give the empowerment yourself, apart from the Guru Yoga practice as a preliminary.

Dudjom Tersar Ngondro is just fine, it is just not Dzogchen Ngondro. That is something else, very precise and specific.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds?

Grigoris said:
A long time now, it is part of the trade I plunder.  Ayway, you don't have to be a clairvoyant to know what people are thinking.  Your mother always knew when you were about to get up to shit and she was didn't work at carnival side shows as a medium and soothsayer.

Malcolm wrote:
You definitely have to be clairvoyant if you are trying judge others you know solely through the internet.


Grigoris said:
You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
I think that in many instances you can.  What is manifested through speech and bodily action if not the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Reams of Mahāyāna sūtras, not to mention tantras, contradict this notion. Śakyamuni Buddha in a past incarnation was a very strict monk who was critical of another monk whose students hung out in bars with townsfolk, ate meat and so on. The karmic effect of this was that Buddha's Sangha has been fragmented by sectarianism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.

conebeckham said:
Aye, and there's the rub.  As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path?   And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course.  All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and what I am saying is that people who are practicing the methods prescribed in the Dzogchen teachings— which does not include the two stages, deity yoga and so on — should be confident in those practices without thinking they are missing something because, for example, they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro, have not done a retreat on the three roots and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Some great masters dedicated their entire lives to ngondro practices.

dzogchungpa said:
I don't know how accurate this is but, in "The Wish-Fulfilling Jewel", Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says that the Guru Yoga from the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro described in that book was Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's main practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, and the Sakyas claim his main practice was the Amoghasiddhi Guru Yoga from Sakya Lamdre.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
What is meant by "the coarse aspect of the two obscurations"?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty simple, it means that the two obscurations have a coarse aspect and a subtle aspect.

Eliminating the course aspect of the afflictive obscuration means that one will not take rebirth in any of the three lower realms, nor outside of Dharma families and so on.

The subtle aspect of the afflictive obscuration means that one will still be subject to afflictions, but markedly less so than other ordinary people.

Eliminating the coarse aspect of the knowledge obscuration means that one will begin to manifest the six clairvoyances, find it very easy to understand difficult Dharma topics and so forth.

The subtle aspect of the knowledge obscuration means that one will still be subject to innate self-grasping, will lack the two omnisciences and so on.

What Khenpo Ngachung is stating is that these coarse obscurations cannot be eliminated by those who have not acheived the path of seeing of the lesser vehicles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, http://www.shambhala.com/wondrous-dance-of-illusion.html.

heart said:
Who recognised the natural state while doing Ngondro?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
And this demonstrates what? Do you think it was Ngondro practice that was responsible for his recognition? I am sure that is not what you mean.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, http://www.shambhala.com/wondrous-dance-of-illusion.html.

Grigoris said:
No my friend...  I have no doubt Khenpo Ngachung is a realised teacher, but you assert that:   "an ordinary person who practices the Great Perfection can eradicate the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized (what is understood in lower vehicles as) the path of seeing, the direct realization of emptiness."

Malcolm wrote:
I definitely fault your eyesight —— I did not make this claim, Khenpo Ngachung made this claim.


Grigoris said:
because I have yet to see ordinary people practicing the the Great Perfection...

Malcolm wrote:
What an extremely strange thing to say. You think only realized people can practice Dzogchen teachings? If this were true, it would defeat the whole purpose of Dzogchen teachings. But it is definitely a common opinion among those who really have no understanding of Dzogchen, both Tibetans and Westerners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
People who doubt my assertion need to read the works of Khenpo Ngachung.

Grigoris said:
In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, http://www.shambhala.com/wondrous-dance-of-illusion.html.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2017 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


Gyurme Kundrol said:
If someone rejects practice telling others that it will somehow hold them back, implying that practice is somehow "harming" them, then they are not really holding the authentic view of Dzogchen in my opinion. In that view there are no sentient beings, so where is all this concern coming from regarding what other people are doing? What kind of realized Dzogchenpa who is in Rigpa 24/7 conjures up this delusion of beings practicing and this dualistic notion that they should or shouldnt do those things? Its absurd to claim to be an advanced practitioner who is beyond all this then turn around and engage in acceptance of one thing and rejection of another, taking positions of what is good or bad, high or low. Its a sure sign that we should not listen to people who talk like this and should instead listen to whatever our Guru has taught us.


Malcolm wrote:
The dichotomy you appear to be setting up is that if a Dzogchen practitioner is not a first stage bodhisattva and beyond, then somehow they need to be practicing sadhanas, generating merits, and so on, as in the lower vehicles. But this is not the case.

Put in terms of the five paths and ten stages: an ordinary person who practices the Great Perfection can eradicate the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized (what is understood in lower vehicles as) the path of seeing, the direct realization of emptiness. This is a special point of the superiority of the Great Perfection teachings. In the eight lower vehicles, it is impossible to eradicate the coarse aspect of the two obscurations below the path of seeing. People who doubt my assertion need to read the works of Khenpo Ngachung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Robert Spatz and Ogyen Kunsang Choling
Content:
crazy-man said:
it´s a shame

Malcolm wrote:
It is an outrage, and every Tibetan Lama who knew about this up should be publicly shamed as well.

Further, Tibetan Lamas really do need to investigate from whom they are receiving donations. They cannot excuse themselves with the "I didn't know" nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: What does chos kyi dbyings mean in the plural?
Content:
emaho said:
I have to do some chores now ...

dzogchungpa said:
Like researching and posting Roxy Music/Bryan Ferry videos?


jk


Anyway, I'm curious about dharmatadhātu now, never seen that before. Is it possible that's just an error in the Sanskrit?

Malcolm wrote:
It is occurs often enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 7:03 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


conebeckham said:
Maybe that's just me, LOL.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. I agree with this assessment.

conebeckham said:
Thanks for the vote of confidence, LOL.



Malcolm wrote:
I definitely agree that you were expressing your own point of view on the matter. Kagyus in general always try to jimmy Dzogchen into their gradualist framework.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


conebeckham said:
That's true, of course.  But although I am no mind reader, and have no idea of the capacities of anyone else, I strongly feel such comments are excuses.

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing called "higher or lower" capacity in Dzogchen teachings, as Shabkar states:

If this is practiced, all will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharp and dull capacity.
If one practices, even a cowherd will be liberated.
If one understands the significance of the luminosity of one’s mind through a direct perception,
the rhetoric of scholars is not necessary here;
just as when one eats sugar,
there  is no need for an explanation of the taste of sugar.
Without understanding this, even a paṇḍita will be deluded.
Even if one is skilled in all the explanations of the nine vehicles,
it is like telling a story of a distant place one has not seen;
one is even further from the stage of full awakening than heaven is from the earth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 6:46 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


conebeckham said:
Maybe that's just me, LOL.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. I agree with this assessment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


kirtu said:
The US is only 15% of the climate change problem.  This is bad but there is not much to be done.

Malcolm wrote:
We and Europe are 100 percent responsible for the present climate effects that we are witnessing now (Industrial Revolution effects). We have diminished our footprint some, but there are a lot of effects that we are still indirectly responsible for.

kirtu said:
Western Europe has diminished it's 1990 greenhouse gas emisions by 25%-50% depending on the country whereas US greenhouse gas emissions have increased since 1990.  Even though they decreased during the Obama years they are still higher than in 1990.

Western Europe has taken significant action and the United States hasn’t.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you agree with me in the form of a disagreement.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Either I am seriously underestimating the stupidity of American citizens or you (Malcolm) are underestimating the power of mass media (or a little of both)...

Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy, as with all democracies, requires that a) people are educated and b) have good information upon which base their decisions.


If either of those two conditions are not met, then not only will direct democracy fail, all forms of democracy will fail.

This is why I maintain that while direct democracy is great at the town meeting level; it does not scale to running a large country and never can because even with a good education, no individual person can hope to have a grasp of all the information needed to make good policy decisions about every aspect of a nation, and if asked to weigh in on these questions, average people are likely to respond from a position of an absence of knowledge, unlike their intimate knowledge of their local community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.

Malcolm wrote:
This nothing other than the indirect approach to Dzogchen practice.

The point is that when one is engaged in Dzogchen practice there is no Mahāyoga, no Anuyoga.

Practicing secondary practices with Dzogchen view is the indirect approach indicated by Mañjuśrimitra, and later, by Rongzom in chapter six of his Intro to Mahāyāna.

heart said:
Even if it is an indirect approach to Dzogchen, it still is an approach. Reading the Rongzom book right now.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but let us be very clear what we are doing and how such approaches deviate from the approach the Great Perfection itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


heart said:
Tulu Urgyen Rinpoche often said this: "The Mahayoga teachings are combined within Anu yoga, the Anu yoga are combined within Ati yoga, the Ati yoga are combined within sadhana, and sadhana is combined within one’s application." I think it makes a lot of sense.

Malcolm wrote:
This nothing other than the indirect approach to Dzogchen practice.

The point is that when one is engaged in Dzogchen practice there is no Mahāyoga, no Anuyoga.

Practicing secondary practices with Dzogchen view is the indirect approach indicated by Mañjuśrimitra, and later, by Rongzom in chapter six of his Intro to Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Secondary practices including the 8 lower yanas  are not Dzogchen but they can be practiced with the Dzogchen view.

Malcolm wrote:
Which means we understand that for us they are not the main path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


binocular said:
If they're all so advanced and have it all figured out, then it shouldn't be hard for them to clarify things for me the way the Buddha did for Saccaka.


Malcolm wrote:
Seems to me you are trying to start a fire with a wet log.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
heart said:
If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.


Malcolm wrote:
It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.

heart said:
Maybe they are not "Dzogchen practice per se", even if there are a number of sadhanas that are said to be Dzogchen sadhanas ,but it will be pretty difficult to take the Dzogchen out of the practitioner in order to apply a Anuyoga practice.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Anuyoga is a special case because it's explanation of the basis is the same as the Great Perfection. However, even Anuyoga practice is not Dzogchen since it regards Dzogchen as something to attain. This is why it is classed as part of the 8 lower vehicles. Practices like Chetsun Nyinthig, Thigle Gyachan, etc., are not Dzogchen practices. Even these practices with very nice words, and so on, are part of the indirect approach to Dzogchen teachings. They approach the main practices of Dzogchen as a completion stage. But the two stages do not exist in Dzogchen per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy simple does not work at a national level, and shouldn't. For example, I would not want people voting directly issues of national security about which they necessarily have little or no information.

Grigoris said:
Whereas the educated and informed dudes in the Pentagon make all the right decisions when it comes to national interests.  They are not driven by financial and political bodies???

Malcolm wrote:
As the armed forces are under the control of the civilian government, they are supposed to be driven by our political body, the Congress. Only the Congress has the right to declare war. The executive branch has limited abilities to use the military in the case of attacks by other countries, but does not have the right to declare war [hence most of the so called "war on terror" is based on the latter idea].

The people in the Pentagon as well as the Intelligence Services are generally quite highly educated. For example, the Pentagon has accepted human-driven climate change for decades, irrespective of the deluded opinions of the flat-earthers presently in the White House and the GOP in general. So yes, in matters of military goals and strategies, I generally think when it comes to defense of the US, they do a pretty good job. When there are screwups like the Iraq Invasion, it is not on the military, it is on the civilian government. In my opinion, in a direct democracy campaign US citizens would have overwhelmingly made the choice to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan. So, again, in my opinion, the Congress acted out the will of the people in those two wars, as foolish as they were.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
heart said:
If it wasn't like that nothing would make much sense.


Malcolm wrote:
It isn't like that. For example, the short thun is not a Dzogchen practice, nor is the medium thun, nor the long thun, nor the invocation to the protectors and so on. These are all secondary practices, but they are not Dzogchen practice per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Where do you draw the distiction then, there are lots if Dzogchen practitioners practicing Anuyoga, Kriya yoga, maybe some shine etc.

Malcolm wrote:
These are secondary practices for overcoming relative problems. But they are not practices proper to the Dzogchen path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2017 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
binocular said:
What I'm not doing is mindlessly going with the program. I'm not "misinformed". I'm not submissive enough to be able to be religious.
And thank you, you keep proving my points.
Have it.


Malcolm wrote:
I have to say, I find it odd when people with no interest in Buddhadharma hang around Buddhist sites. Don't you think your time would be better spent on sites where others share your interests? Just a thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: The Navagraha in Buddhism
Content:


Jyotish said:
Every Tibetan teaching I go to they keep talking about degenerate age and I wonder if the calculation is wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
This is in relation to the the idea that that Buddhadharma declines in 500 years periods, with this age being the age of the five degenerations: view, afflictions, time, lifespan, and merit. However, it is also due to the idea that Śakyamuni Buddha is the Buddha for the Kāliyuga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: The Navagraha in Buddhism
Content:
Jyotish said:
@malcolm

I was referring to calculation of planetary position in signs. Tibetan astrology do have these right?

The link referred to indrajalas blog post mentions this about Tibetan system.


Malcolm wrote:
There are many systems of calculation in Tibetan Buddhism. One is derived from Kalacakra, this is used mainly for calendar-making, it also has a version of horary and natal astrology, but Tibetans do not use it much.
Another is derived from the Sarvodaya Tantra, it is very complicated, and never received much attention.

The third is the system of 'byung rtsi or n ag rtsi elemental calculation. It is derived from the treasures concealed by one Chinese master, Du har Nag po (hence the name nag rtsi ) and discovered and translated in the 11th century by one Kham pa Khra mo. This system is very connected with the system of apotropaic rites known under the Rubric of Gto. While Tibetan "Astrology" contains as a whole contains elements from all three of these systems, in general it is the third upon which Tibeatans most rely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
madhusudan said:
Since sentient beings are as infinite as space, the Buddha's compassionate teachings are also infinite, but can be categorized into 84,000 kinds depending on beings' needs. I would guess that those who see no need for the lower teachings are usually those who need them the most.

One thing I find kinda funny is that it is said that for practitioners of the highest faculty, the title of a teaching is enough to intuit the full meaning. The rest of the explanation, then, is for those that didn't "get it" and need further help. So, are the highest teachings spelled out for the slow pokes who just couldn't get to the other shore from madhyamaka, bodhicitta, or the 4 noble truths for that matter?

I'm a very basic practitioner, but I always thought the goal was to practice the 9 yanas simultaneously. Like, keeping the highest view but still minding your Ps and Qs.

Malcolm wrote:
Each of the nine yānas is in independent, self-sufficient vehicle. Otherwise, there is no point in calling them individual "vehicles."

The actual name is Theg pa rim dgu, the nine progressive vehicles. The implication of this however is not that one learns for example, śrāvakayāna, then one moves on to pratyekabuddhayāna, etc. The intention of this is that higher vehicles embrace the intention of the lower vehicles. Thus, if you have been introduced to Dzogchen teachings, there is no need to practice common Mahāyāna since the intention of common Mahāyāna is fully included in the vehicle of Atiyoga. It is not the case however that the lower vehicles can encompass the higher vehicles, because the view and practice of the nine progressive vehicles moves from lower to higher. It is generally regarded as a downfall to prefer to practice a lower vehicle having been introduced to the practices of a higher vehicle: for example, preferring to observe one's pratimokśa vows rather than breaking them to benefit another according to Mahāyāna vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In New England and elsewhere, consensus decision making and direct democracy is alive and well in New England town halls, etc.

Grigoris said:
That is not enough.  If a consensus decision is reached at a local level, only to be overturned at a national level due to political and economic affiliation (and not the validity of the content of the decision), then that is not direct democracy. The main problem with US Democracy is not how the system is set up at present; the main problem is apathetic citizenry.
Has it ever occurred to you that the citizentry is apathetic because they know that the system does nothing to actually represent their needs?

Malcolm wrote:
The scope of direct democracy must necessarily be limited to local decisions, for example, whether a town wishes to allocate money to installing a broadbadn network.

Direct democracy simple does not work at a national level, and shouldn't. For example, I would not want people voting directly issues of national security about which they necessarily have little or no information.

As for your second observation, an engaged citizenry can have their needs represented and met. Countless examples in the US show this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 11:58 AM
Title: Re: The Navagraha in Buddhism
Content:
Jyotish said:
I had no faith in Tibetan system of calculation

Malcolm wrote:
It is not astrology. It is a system of calculating the phase relationships between the elements. The man ngag sde system of Dzogchen also has an important system of elemental calculation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 11:56 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


boda said:
Perhaps this is a good attitude, considering that the one guy everyone agrees achieved supreme unsurpassed enlightenment didn't have the benefit of "Common Mahayana/prayers/Sutra/Tantra etc."

Malcolm wrote:
According to whose narrative?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


kirtu said:
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies.  Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).

Malcolm wrote:
....
The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.

kirtu said:
The US is only 15% of the climate change problem.  This is bad but there is not much to be done.

Malcolm wrote:
We and Europe are 100 percent responsible for the present climate effects that we are witnessing now (Industrial Revolution effects). We have diminished our footprint some, but there are a lot of effects that we are still indirectly responsible for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so you actually mean a Republican Democracy, like the US. As I said elsewhere, direct democracy is fine in small communities. It does not scale.

Grigoris said:
What are you talking about dude?  Does what I described sound anything like the current U$ system?  Where is the consensus decision making and direct democracy in the current U$ system?

Malcolm wrote:
In New England and elsewhere, consensus decision making and direct democracy is alive and well in New England town halls, etc.

Grigoris said:
The U$ system is (loosely) based on representative democracy.  The representatives make decisions ON BEHALF of (and most times in direct contradiction to the needs of) their constituent.

Malcolm wrote:
Not if those representatives wish to keep their jobs.

The main problem with US Democracy is not how the system is set up at present; the main problem is apathetic citizenry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
boda said:
I suppose my point is that the Buddha obviously wasn't a scholar of Buddhism, and could not have know even the basic concepts of Buddhism. That being the case, how important could these things be?

Malcolm wrote:
Many basic concepts of Buddhism were already present in Indian society: karma, rebirth, etc.

There are many other things a person may need to know that have nothing to do with Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
boda said:
Was the Buddha a scholar?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in fact.

boda said:
What, where did he study? Was it Hindu?

Malcolm wrote:
He was educated, learned in the sciences of his day.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.

Grigoris said:
On a large scale direct democracy works via a confederate system.  Representatives of the position of their community meet with other representatives and work on a consensual decision based on the variety of views.  Representatives do not have the right to change the view/opinion of their community, nor override it with their personal view.  In the case of a complete deadlock over a decision that HAS to be made?  Majority vote.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so you actually mean a Republican Democracy, like the US. As I said elsewhere, direct democracy is fine in small communities. It does not scale.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I could have just as easily posted this in the Zen section due to the parallels involved, I remember thinking same thing when I practiced Zen, but figured this was better here.

So something I've run into in my Dharma experiences, a kind of clash of personality types among practitioners that gets me wondering:

An attitude you find in practice groups among some folks goes something like this: "You don't need [Common Mahayana/ prayers/ Sutra/ Tantra etc.], all you need is [Zazen/ Shikantanza/ abiding in Rigpa] man".

This sort of approach has always seemed sophomoric to me, as I have my doubts that anyone can be anything like a "pure" practitioner that makes no use of "lower" teachings. Or at least, it seems like such people are exceedingly rare.

It sometimes feels to me like in our culture this approach risks turning into a Dharmic form of anti-intellectualism, and is often accompanied by "dude you can't learn Dharma from a book" (which while true in many ways, is sort of beside the point, and devalues scholarship and study). Am I just being paranoid, is it just my quirks and pet peeves, or is this a real trend that others have observed?

I mean, I get that one should not cling to or be conditioned by practices, that intellectual knowledge is provisional etc.. but I seem to run into the opposite sometimes - people who seem to reject "lower" practices altogether in favor of a sometimes rigid, sort of  protestant approach where any "lower" practice requiring what is viewed as effort are frowned upon. Sometimes the value of studying or knowing Dharma subjects at all is questioned.

What do all y'all think?

boda said:
Was the Buddha a scholar?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2017 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.

Joka said:
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.

Grigoris said:
Anarchy is where everybody gets to pick, not just an elite few.  A directly democratric solution based on consensus, is a solution that takes into account everybody's needs.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Sems, Dharmata and Dharmadhatu
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Since you have taken DI, you should stop worrying about samsara.

Marc said:
Hi Malcolm

Could you please elaborate a bit on this piece ?

Even if, as you stated in another thread, DI always works and therefore inflict a kind of "fatal wound" to once "samsaric mind", without actual recognition and even more so "preservation" of the Natural State, one could still wander for quite a while... No ?

Malcolm wrote:
That's up to you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: The Navagraha in Buddhism
Content:


Indrajala said:
I have not heard much modern discussion of this in Buddhist traditions. I would be curious to know what people think. Have your teachers ever touched on the subject of astrology, or specifically the navagraha?

Malcolm wrote:
You should look into the Tibetan lore around the protector, Zadud Rahula. Look at Gods and Demons of Tibet.

Indrajala said:
Do you mean...

Oracles and demons of Tibet : the cult and iconography of the Tibetan protective deities
Nebesky-Wojkowitz, René von, 1923-1959
Graz, Austria : Akademische Druck-u. Verlagsanstalt
1975

?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, sorry, exactly. This is best english language resource into these sorts of things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: The Navagraha in Buddhism
Content:


Indrajala said:
I have not heard much modern discussion of this in Buddhist traditions. I would be curious to know what people think. Have your teachers ever touched on the subject of astrology, or specifically the navagraha?

Malcolm wrote:
You should look into the Tibetan lore around the protector, Zadud Rahula. Look at Gods and Demons of Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
muni said:
Dzogchen, I only have been told is master * student

Malcolm wrote:
So, you mean, you have no idea what Dzogchen teachings are since you have never received them?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.

kirtu said:
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies.  Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).


Malcolm wrote:
All formations are subject to decay.

It is unlikely that within the horizon of our lifetime much will change for the better.

Moving to any of the countries you suggest will change very little. Why? Because these countries are not really the problem. The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One liquid, six realms.

Grigoris said:
Using Buddhist theory to justify one's negativity is also the wrong attitude.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course it is. That is not the point of the analogy. You insist that somehow we are able to control how other people think of us. In practice, this is rarely true. For example, you are absolutely incapable of controlling the way people think about your contributions to this forum, which many people experience as aggressive, loud, bullying, arrogant, condescending, and rude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2017 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This thread has definitely run its course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
No? Or is it so relevant that you just blew your mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant.

Confidence can be mistaken for arrogance, especially by those with inferiority complexes.

Grigoris said:
And arrogance can be seen as arrogance, especially by those that do not have an inferiority complex.

Sometimes what one sees is what actually exists.  Blaming others for what they see, in order to justify one's own negative behaviour, is not exactly the correct attitude.

One can be confident without being arrogant, if one chooses to do so.

Malcolm wrote:
One liquid, six realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: Sems, Dharmata and Dharmadhatu
Content:


cepheidvariable said:
Even unconditioned dharmas have a dharmatā.

Malcolm wrote:
Is the dharmatā of unconditioned dharmas, the same as that for conditioned ones? Buddhahood and the path are unconditioned, yet empty of inherent existence? Or is this a misread?

Yes, emptiness.


cepheidvariable said:
And our view towards akasa is the same as the Abhidharmikas?

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, yes.


cepheidvariable said:
Can you speak at all towards whether the material that Vimalamitra surveys (the 17 upadesha tantras) is fundamental to Dudjom Lingpa's method of presenting the material? He seems to have a rather unique way of doing so. But then again, what do I really know. (I know, I know, I'm a Dudjom Lingpa fanboy...or rather, a Padmakara fanboy...)

Malcolm wrote:
It is fundamental to all presentations of so called "man ngag sde."

cepheidvariable said:
Do you think receiving the lung when it's webcasted would be worth my while? Even though I highly doubt I'm going to practice any of the Vima Nyinthig?

Malcolm wrote:
The Vima Nyinthig is the root of all modern Dzogchen. It is all based on the VN. The 17 Tantras, their related texts, and the Vima Nyingthig constitute the basis of all modern Dzogchen teachings.

So yes, you should get the lung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Grigoris said:
but then again: I don't have a superiority complex!

Malcolm wrote:
Me either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
So to my understanding, this part and parcel to Dzogchen practice, we are not limited to, or confined by practices, period. And yet, I see out there (also I could say the same in Zen) every so often someone says "oh, you don't actually need to do any of that lower stuff, unless you are inferior"..well, it seems safe to say that most people are, to one degree or another, at one time or another, "inferior" in just this way.
"

Malcolm wrote:
No, it just means that you work with circumstances. It has nothing to do with inferior or superior persons. In Dzogchen, there is no such distinction.

There is a distinction between higher and lower paths however. If you have entered Dzogchen teachings, but then adopt the view of lower vehicles, this is regarded as a fault or a deviation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I feel https://tsegyalgar.blogspot.com/2016/10/fire-on-mountain-chogyal-namkhai-norbu.html is relevant.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, not relevant at all.

dzogchungpa said:
No? Or is it so relevant that you just blew your mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant.

Confidence can be mistaken for arrogance, especially by those with inferiority complexes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I feel https://tsegyalgar.blogspot.com/2016/10/fire-on-mountain-chogyal-namkhai-norbu.html is relevant.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, not relevant at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If this were the case, no one would have bothered writing detailed analysis of why this is so in so many tantras and commentaries from the five early extracts translated by Vairocana forward.

tingdzin said:
And this literature was formerly read by a very small minority of people who, if they were reading it, usually already had some understanding and practice experience.


Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom's book was intended for Kadampas who were negating Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
From a Dzogchen point of view, the practices of the eight lower vehicles will not get you were you want to go because they are all based on mind, whereas Dzogchen is based on pristine consciousness. That point is hard to grok until you have had a direct perception of vidyā.

tingdzin said:
O.K., but for those who have not, it is pointless to just harp on how superior the Dzogchen (or the ultimate, beyond-the-mind Zen perspective) is.

Malcolm wrote:
If this were the case, no one would have bothered writing detailed analysis of why this is so in so many tantras and commentaries from the five early extracts translated by Vairocana forward.

Even if one has not experienced direct perception, one can still practice according to Dzogchen view, as Rongzom notes in chapter six of the Intro to Mahāyan̄a.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2017 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
Right, what i'm talking about is a dismissive attitude about practices and praxis though, not view.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Dzogchen point of view, the practices of the eight lower vehicles will not get you were you want to go because they are all based on mind, whereas Dzogchen is based on pristine consciousness. That point is hard to grok until you have had a direct perception of vidyā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I mean, I get that one should not cling to or be conditioned by practices, that intellectual knowledge is provisional etc.. but I seem to run into the opposite sometimes - people who seem to reject "lower" practices altogether in favor of a sometimes rigid, sort of  protestant approach where any "lower" practice requiring what is viewed as effort are frowned upon. Sometimes the value of studying or knowing Dharma subjects at all is questioned.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is the most intellectually elaborate Buddhist system there is. It also cannot be learned from books, it is a system that depends principally on receiving intimate instructions from a qualified guru.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I get this, but it is not really what I'm talking about exactly. I would argue that -no- form of Dharma can truly be learned from books anyway, in anything but a really limited form.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree. The difference lies in the path. There is a path for śrāvakas, pratyekabuddhas, etc., and they all, from a Dzogchen perspective, miss the point. They are provisional means, like hitching a ride— they will get you part of the way you want to go, but not all the way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
bryandavis said:
Malcolm,

So in essence, Rainbow body of the great transference or rainbody at the time of death allows Buddhahood with out going through the bardo process. Would the a practitioner of HYT be able to garner the same realization using the path of transformation?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Sems, Dharmata and Dharmadhatu
Content:
cepheidvariable said:
Another one, am I wasting my time with the Kosha if I just want to get to Maha-rainbow-body (and thus engender faith in non-practitioners), as quickly as possible? Can you think of anything wrong with this motivation?

Thanks again, sir!

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen pracitioners should study abhidharma, etc., if only so they know what the difference is between what we practice and our view of the path and what other people practice and their view of the path. This includes looking into nonBuddhist schools. The function of studying tenets is to eliminate concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Sems, Dharmata and Dharmadhatu
Content:
cepheidvariable said:
It refers to all afflictive ideation.
So, say, when I'm analyzing my mind (for it's color, etc.) I have trouble pinpointing (or I guess, separating) the mind from the sensory consciousnesses. The lhunghrub (possibly wrong word to use here) of the ayatanas from mental ideation. Visual consciousness is there, aural consciousness is there, etc. So the afflictive qualities of the sensoral consciousness would be included in this?

Malcolm wrote:
Mind, in Dzogchen, refers to the repository of traces.


cepheidvariable said:
Oh, he is. I'm just saying. Had this not been just an NDE and been a finality, it's not very reassuring that there's much hope for an immensely deluded person such as myself. I don't know, perhaps I should just stick to the bodhisattvayana and skip the eternal hell thing altogether, but having taken DI, I suppose that may not be an option any longer.


Malcolm wrote:
Since you have taken DI, you should stop worrying about samsara.



cepheidvariable said:
So, dharmata is the nature of any possible dharma (minus the uncompounded ones), i.e., empty of it's own inherent existence?

Malcolm wrote:
Even unconditioned dharmas have a dharmatā.



cepheidvariable said:
Vasubandhu states that the three uncompounded dharmas are space, cessation due to realization and cessation not due to realization (I'm having trouble with the last one). I take it we Dzogchenpas take issue with at least one of these. Idk.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all. Non-analytical cessation is the simple absence of a cause.


cepheidvariable said:
Thank you so much for your help, Loppon-la. By the way, I picked up Buddhahood in This Life. Waaaaay over my head, but from the standpoint of spiritual materialism I'm happy to have it available. Thanks for the lotsawa work, and that talk you gave that's on facebook was pretty cool. Glad to have the opportunity to pick your brain a little.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]


It is a very dense book. In time it will become more clear as you practice more and receive more teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I mean, I get that one should not cling to or be conditioned by practices, that intellectual knowledge is provisional etc.. but I seem to run into the opposite sometimes - people who seem to reject "lower" practices altogether in favor of a sometimes rigid, sort of  protestant approach where any "lower" practice requiring what is viewed as effort are frowned upon. Sometimes the value of studying or knowing Dharma subjects at all is questioned.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is the most intellectually elaborate Buddhist system there is. It also cannot be learned from books, it is a system that depends principally on receiving intimate instructions from a qualified guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Does it matter if you reveal your yidam?
Content:


tingdzin said:
This is the highest viewpoint, but when one is just starting yidam practice, it might not be helpful to be too facile about the whole thing. There is the ever-present peril of over-intellectualizing one's practice.

As I said, if you do keep your Vajrayana practices secret, you can't go wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, especially if your main practice is the mani mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Won't even be able to find the outer guru anymore
Content:
The Guru Drinks Bourbon, by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, page 12 said:
Therefore, the outer guru is necessary until you at least have the gist of the inner and secret gurus. When you realize the inner and secret gurus, you won't even be able to find the outer guru anymore.

Kelwin said:
Won't even be able to find the outer guru anymore? Can anyone explain that statement?

Malcolm wrote:
It means you a) will have no more questions b) you will need no further transmissions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2017 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Gap in the Dharma?
Content:


madyhamika said:
What appears to be missing is a Buddhist exposition of how the illusion of inherent existence arises as a conventionally existent psychological phenomena in the first place, and secondarily, how the illusion of inherent existence leads to suffering in psychological terms.

Malcolm wrote:
This is one of the main subjects of the so called intimate instruction series of the Great Perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2017 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
zenman said:
Is there buddhahood without rainbow body? Is Yeshe Lama another name for buddhahood? Or Kuntu Zangpo?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is a kind of Buddhahood without rainbow body. And to your second question, yes.

zenman said:
What kind of buddha was Shakyamuni then? Trying to figure this out. Are there different stages in being a buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
According the Dzogchen tradition, following the general Mahāyāna tradition, Śakyamuni was a nirmanakāya, an emanation of the sambhogakāya Vajradhara/Vairocana Jñānasagara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2017 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Malcolm, I get that Rainbow body=Buddhahood...what I was wondering was if there is anything written about the process/experience of Rainbow body found specifically in the Dzogchen Tantras or commentaries?

Malcolm wrote:
There is.

Fa Dao said:
Can you elaborate or is it meant to be secret and not talked about? Its just that all of us who practice Dzogchen know that this is the ultimate goal we are working towards but most dont know what that goal actually entails...would be nice to know....ya know?

Malcolm wrote:
You can look at the final chapter in Buddhahood in This Life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2017 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Sems, Dharmata and Dharmadhatu
Content:
cepheidvariable said:
Hello dear friends,

Some quick questions for you guys, seeing as you've all been so helpful previously.

(1) When we refer to "Sems" in the sense of Dzogchen, are we referring to all of the ayatanas? Or just that of mental ideation?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to all afflictive ideation.


cepheidvariable said:
(2) Should I be concerned about ending up in Vajra Hell, haven taken DI with ChNNR and received one lung for a ngondro text, with no other empowerments? I've seen that Sam Bercholz -- of Shambhala Publications -- has a new book called "A Guided Tour of Hell." If one of the senior students of Thinley Norbu Rinpoche ended up there, what hope is there for me?

Malcolm wrote:
Last I knew, Bercholz was alive and well.



cepheidvariable said:
And finally, (3) I seem to recall Allan Wallace saying that Dharmata is a shortening of dharmadhatu? I assume this is incorrect, what is the relationship of these two terms. I have been working with the hypothesis that dharmadhatu kind of refers to what would be called in set theory "the set of all possible sets/elements." Is this incorrect?


Malcolm wrote:
Dharmatā can refer to many things. In this context is refers to the emptiness of a single thing; dharmadhātu refers to the emptiness of all things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2017 at 8:38 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Malcolm, I get that Rainbow body=Buddhahood...what I was wondering was if there is anything written about the process/experience of Rainbow body found specifically in the Dzogchen Tantras or commentaries?

Malcolm wrote:
There is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Does it matter if you reveal your yidam?
Content:
Boomerang said:
yidam

Malcolm wrote:
"Yi dam" means "promise," actually. Thus, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, your promise is vidyā. If you say that you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you are essentially claiming that vidyā is your yidam. Everything else is secondary.

Boomerang said:
So when a person on Dharmawheel says they practice Dzogchen they are openly claiming that vidyā is their yidam, and this doesn't break vows of secrecy like it would in Mahayoga or Highest Yoga Tantra? Is it only harmful when you talk about Dzogchen with the wrong person, such as a person with no interest in dharma?

Coincidentally, one of the aforementioned biographies was of your late guru, Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche. I wonder if the circumstances regarding secrecy were different or him, since he was constantly revealing his attainments by doing his job. What do you think?

Two other gurus who openly talk about deities they practice are Garchen Rinpoche and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Is this a subtle way of saying, "I have attained siddhi, so there's nothing for me to lose by revealing this?" Or maybe it's okay for them to reveal those yidams because they aren't the main yidam?

Malcolm wrote:
Anytime you take an empowerment, you are making a commitment to that method of practice from now until awakening. That is essentially what a yidam is, i.e., a commitment to the path of awakening. The whole idea of "special yidams" is a bit of quasi theistic superstition. It does not matter who anyone's yidam is since the continuum of pristine consciousness of all yidams is the same.

People have karmic relations with this or that practice. But in reality, everyone in Mahāyāna has the same yidam: buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Does it matter if you reveal your yidam?
Content:
Boomerang said:
yidam

Malcolm wrote:
"Yi dam" means "promise," actually. Thus, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, your promise is vidyā. If you say that you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you are essentially claiming that vidyā is your yidam. Everything else is secondary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
zenman said:
Is there buddhahood without rainbow body? Is Yeshe Lama another name for buddhahood? Or Kuntu Zangpo?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is a kind of Buddhahood without rainbow body. And to your second question, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Can you elaborate or is there just not much that is written?

Malcolm wrote:
Rainbow body is buddhahood. So any standard description of a Buddha's experience of the inexhaustible ornamental wheel of the body, speech, mind, qualities, and activities of the Buddha would apply.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Yamantaka with Protection Sphere
Content:
conebeckham said:
Just keep in mind that the Yamantaka practice done in Drikung, with Garchen Rinpoche, differs from the Vajrabhairava practices that Geluk folks do.

Drikung's Yamantaka is a terma.  Nyingma tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
its actually a kama tradition (from Nubchen) reinforced with pure visions.

I have seen the original six armed Yamantaka statue at Samye, made in India. It looks very little like Tibetan representations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2017 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Possibly of interest:
https://www.academia.edu/2430819/Simulating_Liberation_The_Tibetan_Buddhist_Game_Ascending_the_Spiritual_Levels_

Malcolm wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=574 has 108 total positions, and includes the 13 dimensions where Dzogchen is taught. The Muslim hells are the hardest from which to escape, apart from Vajra Hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 28th, 2017 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Dzogchen Tantras?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Are there any of the Dzogchen Tantras or commentaries that talk specifically about what its like to have rainbow body? How one functions? what it "feels" like? All that we are told as Dzogchen practitioners is how to get there and that its the ultimate but that seems to be as far as it goes....


Malcolm wrote:
Spontaneously and blissful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 28th, 2017 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Book on Non Conceptualization?
Content:
Tirisilex said:
Can someone please suggest a book on Non conceptualization.. I tried a search on Amazon and got nothing.  I really want to explore the concept of non conception.


Malcolm wrote:
You should look at Klaus Dieter Mathis writings on Kagyu Mahāmudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 28th, 2017 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
zenman said:
I have been waiting for a month to get my user account activated at the website to access webcast replays. I have sent two emails to the adresses given about this without answer. Any ideas?

Leif said:
I believe webcast replays are generally only accessible to IDC members.

zenman said:
I am talking about membership, cost me 130 euros. Are there different kinds of memberships?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to go through your local gakyil.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 27th, 2017 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
smcj said:
Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.
My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 27th, 2017 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: Is Kunjed Gyalpo the word of Garab Dorje ?
Content:
florin said:
In a way i consider the kunjed gyalpo collection as a reactionary tantra against the schema of 8 yanas and their methodologies.

Malcolm wrote:
I prefer to consider it a dialogue.

florin said:
But how well known was this schema at the time of Garab Dorje ?

Malcolm wrote:
If the nine yāna scheme existed in India, it was among a very small circle of scholars, and quite late (i.e. late 8th century). There is zero chance the Kun byed rgyal po is something other than a Tibetan compilation of disparate texts— some Indian, some Tibetan— forged into whole sometime in the late ninth, early tenth century.

florin said:
My thoughts are that the repeated rejection of this schema it was generated as a reaction and a response to an already existing audience that was already familiar with this schema.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a long history in India of masters who practiced graduated paths and then came to consider them provisional. The earliest wave of these people are represented by Śrī Siṃha, Vimalamitra and so on. Later on we have Saraha and Vairocanaraṣita (an 11th century Indian who travelled to Tibet and stayed there, who was responsible for translating many of Saraha's more radical dohas).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 27th, 2017 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


kirtu said:
That's why I'm surprised that you chose that metaphor.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
I chose that metaphor because it is a traditional one in Dzogchen. For example, Mañjuśrīmitra's Meditation on Bodhicitta is nicknamed " rdo la gser shun," Smelting Gold from Ore.


Miphams states:
Having established the intrinsic, natural uniformity of the mind of perfect realization [byang chub sems, bodhicitta], the ultimate dharmatā, as the unmistaken meaning of the Great Perfection, the intimate instruction of how to meditate is the treatise exemplified by a skilled smith smelting the element of gold in gold ore into liquid, meaning that it is actually extracted, which uses the principle of connecting the example and the meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 27th, 2017 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.

kirtu said:
The smelting metaphor is a transformation, a fabrication.

Why is the approach not actually more like testing the gold and then realizing/confirming that it really is gold?  The preliminaries maybe are more like smelting just as purification but once introduced then it is training in confidence, etc.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not a transformation nor a fabrication. You are not changing one thing into another thing. You are not creating something new.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 27th, 2017 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then I will be better equipped to be a barista. In general, I will be more literate and more adaptable than someone with a technical degree or technical school education.
You see, I am a great believer in education purely for the sake of learning.

binocular said:
Have you ever actually have to live and work like this?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. I worked a dishwasher for many years, then as a house painter, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2017 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
dreambow said:
"People with liberal arts educations are generally better equipped in life" well in my neck of the woods you may end up working as a barista.

Malcolm wrote:
Then I will be better equipped to be a barista. In general, I will be more literate and more adaptable than someone with a technical degree or technical school education.

You see, I am a great believer in education purely for the sake of learning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2017 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Grigoris said:
In which case you are saying that conventional mind can be enlightened (experiences enlightenment), or that is enlightened already (but not perceived of as enlightened)?

Malcolm wrote:
The approach of the Sakyapas and Gelugpas is alchemical— they want to take the base matter of the five aggregates and transform them into the five wisdoms.

The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2017 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The GOP, etc., understand that liberally educated people are their worst nightmare. So they have sought to cut funding for liberal, comprehensive education where people are taught to think for themselves.

Wayfarer said:
That's a depressing thought. I wonder if that is a conscious decision as much as one of the many consequences of 'economic rationalism', i.e. regarding education as being a function of the 'market-driven economy'?

I must say, I had an excellent education at Uni of Sydney. When I finished the Buddhist Studies degree, the address given at my Graduation Ceremony was on the theme of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'. It captured so many excellent points about a true liberal arts education and the ability to think for oneself.

(The subjects I have studied have never really been directly relevant to my means of livelihood - in fact that is an major issue in some ways - but on the other hand, I've gained an understanding that I never would have done had I studied law or medicine, which is what my family background would have suggested.)

I think one of the obvious problems of Western culture, generally, is nihilism - the death of meaning, community, a sense of relatedness to those around you and the cosmos. I think many people are dying of loneliness and meaninglessness. In much poorer environments, I suspect that people are less prone to suicide because they're fully occupied just trying to survive, so they don't sit around and wonder 'why am I doing this?'

Malcolm wrote:
People with liberal arts educations are generally better equipped in life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2017 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Solidifying either a "conventional mind" or a "nature of Mind" are just conceptual traps, and, as Malcolm said, not helpful.  This is a real crucial point, I think.  That's why too much talk is not useful, esp. here on the Internet.

Malcolm wrote:
Since there are no phenomena that are not one’s mind, the diversity [as mind] is the mind series. The sole intent of these [texts] is to refute that the mind is anything other than the self-originated pristine consciousness.
-- Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2017 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Grigoris said:
It is a question, not a suggestion.  That is why there are question marks in the statement.  There seems to be a distinction between ... and ... but the question is whether they have the same nature or not.

Malcolm wrote:
The mind essence ( sems nyid, cittatā ) is the essence or nature of the mind by definition. What does it mean to say mind essence? It means that the mind's essence is inseparable clarity and emptiness. There is no nature of the mind beyond this. It is also not meaningful to speak of a further nature of the mind essence.

conebeckham said:
Would you say the crucial point is whether one "sees" this clarity/emptiness, or not?  And for how long?  At some point, with training, one "always sees" this clarity/emptiness?

Malcolm wrote:
The nature of the mind is seen in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. This moment of seeing is called vidyā. The difference between buddhas and sentient being solely depends on how fragmented this vidyā is. In buddhas vidyā is unbroken and continuous; in sentient beings it is fragmented and discontinuous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
dreambow said:
Interesting, a lot of people I know with university degrees are unemployed or under employed. The few I know who have full time jobs have no
job security as they are all on contracts. Many jobs have been outsourced to India  or the Philippines. It's hard to compete with these low wage
countries. Of course universities are being run like businesses and have been run  that way for many years, so students often from Asia who pay up front can usually get into any subject they please and are often passed accordingly. Money speaks louder then ability.
Every second student is clamouring to get into commerce, banking and become an economist....its the  buzz word, its your ticket to employment.
Yes many people are sad and dispirited.

Malcolm wrote:
It is the nature of samsara to be sad and dispirited. That said, the US has disinvested in education, and has done so for decades, since Reagan. It was deliberate. The GOP, etc., understand that liberally educated people are their worst nightmare. So they have sought to cut funding for liberal, comprehensive education where people are taught to think for themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Are you saying that "conventional mind" has a different nature than "the nature of mind"???

Marc said:
Hi Grigoris
Are you somehow suggesting that the distinction between sems and sems nyid isn't a crucial key point in Dzogchen ?

Grigoris said:
It is a question, not a suggestion.  That is why there are question marks in the statement.  There seems to be a distinction between ... and ... but the question is whether they have the same nature or not.

Malcolm wrote:
The mind essence ( sems nyid, cittatā ) is the essence or nature of the mind by definition. What does it mean to say mind essence? It means that the mind's essence is inseparable clarity and emptiness. There is no nature of the mind beyond this. It is also not meaningful to speak of a further nature of the mind essence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 8:46 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Rakz said:
For what?

Malcolm wrote:
For being a learned, cultured person with a sense of history and perspective.

STEM programs are fine, but they need to be supplemented by ample amounts of Liberal Arts.

For example, people with Liberal Arts degrees often make much better programmers than STEM graduates, because they have more flexible thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Rakz said:
Maybe this has more to do with the failure of second/third wave feminism? Studies have shown that women are much less happier than they were in the 50s. I wonder why.


Malcolm wrote:
Really? What studies? By whom?

Rakz said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1189894/Women-happy-years-ago-.html

Malcolm wrote:
The study does not support your thesis that this is a result of the failure of feminism. The study specifically states that "Rather than immediately inferring that the women’s movement failed to improve the lot of women, we conclude with a simple taxonomy for organizing alternative explanations of this paradox."

They then address the issue of feminism in a nuanced fashion, "Finally, the changes brought about through the women’s movement may have decreased women’s happiness. The increased opportunity to succeed in many dimensions may have led to an increased likelihood of believing that one’s life is not measuring up. Similarly, women may now compare their lives to a broader group, including men, and find their lives more likely to come up short in this assessment. Or women may simply find the complexity and increased pressure in their modern lives to have come at the cost of happiness."

It also says, "It has been recognized that an individual’s assessment of their well-being may reflect the social desirability of responses and Kahneman (1999) argues that people in good circumstances may be hedonically better off than people in worse circumstances, yet they may require more to declare themselves happy. In the context of the findings presented in this paper, women may now feel more comfortable being honest about their true happiness and have thus deflated their previously inflated responses."

But quite frankly, not a single one of the woman that I know would dream of trading in their independence and so on for some putative happiness that exists on TV in Ozzie and Harriet land.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was referring adversarial conditions in contemporary society which render less-educated people less marketable for jobs, etc.

binocular said:
In which case, it is not education itself that provides people with better tools and resources to deal with adversarial conditions. Education is just a means to an end in our particular system.

But education doesn't really solve anything, it just shfits the same problem to another level. Education only offers an advantage to a person as long as enough other people don't get that education. But when more people get that education, the competition is just the same, and many lose out again. IOW, you could educate everyone, and many people would still be unemployed. This is because our systems of production are far too efficient for everyone to have room to have a job.

Rakz said:
Only useful education is a STEM degree, but even that is no guarantee of a job nowadays.

Malcolm wrote:
Total nonsense. We need more liberal arts education, not less.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
Right. The article made it clear that while similar deaths in Hispanic and black communities were decreasing, the aggregate ratio remains far higher than in white communities. But - the headline essentially means that the community with the best mental health is deteriorating. The headline did not say that the communities with the worst mental health were improving. So I'd say the odd focus of the article means that an improvement of mental health in Hispanic or black communities is not characterized as a relevant success of American culture.

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely. White women have been offing themselves with drugs and alchohol for decades and decades. Mommy's little helper and all that,

Rakz said:
Maybe this has more to do with the failure of second/third wave feminism? Studies have shown that women are much less happier than they were in the 50s. I wonder why.


Malcolm wrote:
Really? What studies? By whom?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was referring adversarial conditions in contemporary society which render less-educated people less marketable for jobs, etc.

binocular said:
In which case, it is not education itself that provides people with better tools and resources to deal with adversarial conditions. Education is just a means to an end in our particular system.

But education doesn't really solve anything, it just shfits the same problem to another level. Education only offers an advantage to a person as long as enough other people don't get that education. But when more people get that education, the competition is just the same, and many lose out again. IOW, you could educate everyone, and many people would still be unemployed. This is because our systems of production are far too efficient for everyone to have room to have a job.

Malcolm wrote:
I have always understood education to mean "being trained how to think." That has been missing in the US educational system for anyone who is not had access to good primary, secondary and  higher education. That access is becoming increasingly rare.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
People with less education have fewer tools and resources to deal with adversarial conditions.

binocular said:
This needs elaborating.
What education does one get in school that provides the student with better tools and resources to deal with adversarial conditions? They generally don't teach life skills in schools. But it does take a lot of life skills to successfully complete a course of education.

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring adversarial conditions in contemporary society which render less-educated people less marketable for jobs, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Can we agree that you won't "see" either clarity or emptiness, but you will somehow experience the nature  of empty clear awareness?

After all, as Karmapa Rangjung Dorje said, "even the Buddhas do not see it."

Tsongkhapafan said:
Why would experiencing the conventional nature of the mind lead to an experience of emptiness? Our mind is obscured and we perceive all phenomena as inherently existent including the mind. Without specific meditation on emptiness you will never perceive the empty nature of things and you certainly won't simply by focusing on conventional truths.

conebeckham said:
Who said anything about meditating on conventional nature of mind? Not me.   Not the Dohas or Upadeshas, really, either. That is your own fabricated conclusion.  I don't think you read the  Upadesha from Tilopa, because you would not mistake the object if you had read it, and the commentary by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche.

I do wish you would read outside your own ghost-written tradition, with an attempt to be open-minded and with no tortured attempts to turn words and meaning to your purpose.  It's transparent and intellectually dishonest.

Nowhere in the upadesha, nor in any of the quotes I have provided in this thread, does anyone suggest "conventional mind" to equate with primordial awareness.  If you assert that "Nature of Mind," the empty yet cognizant awareness which is nonconceptual and without beginning or end, is conventional, please provide sources from sutra, Tantra, or upadesha to support this assertion.  Frankly, every quote and every source provided thus far, and every Doha and pith instruction any of us could trot out in future, contradicts your position when read plainly without superimposition or needless twisting.

You can continue to parrot your dogma to the end of time and you will still have no idea what the Mahasiddhas are talking about in their pith instructions. You've gotten in your own way.  I cannot say it more plainly.  Go read and contemplate the Ganges Mahamudra Upadesha Tilopa spoke to Naropa, and read the commentary from the master, Thrangu Rinpoche,  it is a gift--do not throw it away carelessly or break it.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of the confusion here results from the fact that in the Great Perfection, the three kāyas are regarded as the path appearances, and not the result. Since TKF has no idea about this, he is naturally confused about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 25th, 2017 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So you mean all the despair of blacks, latinos, and women amounts to nothing? It is only a failure of American Culture when white men start to off themselves through drugs, alcohol and depression?

PuerAzaelis said:
Right. The article made it clear that while similar deaths in Hispanic and black communities were decreasing, the aggregate ratio remains far higher than in white communities. But - the headline essentially means that the community with the best mental health is deteriorating. The headline did not say that the communities with the worst mental health were improving. So I'd say the odd focus of the article means that an improvement of mental health in Hispanic or black communities is not characterized as a relevant success of American culture.

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely. White women have been offing themselves with drugs and alchohol for decades and decades. Mommy's little helper and all that,


It is interesting too to note that addiction rates are much lower in Europe in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: "Deaths of despair"
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That is very sad and also very concerning. I see it as a sign of the real failure of American culture, society and politics, on a deep level.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean all the despair of blacks, latinos, and women amounts to nothing? It is only a failure of American Culture when white men start to off themselves through drugs, alcohol and depression?

Wayfarer said:
This sense of despair is what got Trump elected - he promised that he can turn it around.

Malcolm wrote:
77,000 votes got Trump elected. Please bear in mind he lost the popular vote by 3 million+

Wayfarer said:
But, it's a terrible situation, made worse by the fact that really nobody in Government - or nobody who gets any media - is doing anything to address it.

Malcolm wrote:
The reality is that the correlation does not track ethnic identity, it tracks education. People with less education have fewer tools and resources to deal with adversarial conditions.

If there is a correlation with the Government policies, the correlation lies in the steep cuts to public education and related funding since the Reagan era.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
A merely imputed self does exist.


Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of imputation: valid and false.

The imputation of a self is a false imputation. That false imputation exists, but the self it imputes does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
His Buddhism is a result of a thousand years of doctrinal politics

Tsongkhapafan said:
Buddhadharma is really not about politics at all.
You can blame certain Dalai Lamas for corrupting political elements.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I was talking about the ancient politics of Sba bzhed annals. etc., sources you use without even realizing it. Where do you think all this nonsense about Hashang comes from to begin with? But you have no idea. You just inherited a doxology that you have never seriously questioned nor critically examined, taking myths and legends to be historical facts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


conebeckham said:
One thing I do want to make clear, though, is that it is always good to recognize the limits of one's experience and knowledge. You make black/white assertions quite a bit, you know, and the BuddhaDharma doesn't really operate that way.   84,000 teachings, you know?  Expedient Meaning.

Tsongkhapafan said:
I agree it's good to recognise one's limits.

As far as black and white assertions are concerned, just because things are empty doesn't mean you can believe anything. Missing out important parts of the path in the name of a 'pathless path' isn't going to lead anywhere.

Malcolm wrote:
That is the point, there is nowhere else to go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
conebeckham said:
You make black/white assertions quite a bit, you know, and the BuddhaDharma doesn't really operate that way.

Malcolm wrote:
His Buddhism is a result of a thousand years of doctrinal politics, based in part on annals written to bolster Pro-Indian clans over Pro-Chinese clans. This is why these conversations always degenerate into "Your view is Hashang"!

But we know, from a clear study of Samten Migdron, that Hashang's nongradualist view, based on definitive sūtras, was much more profound than Kamalashila's view, based as it was on provisional sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2017 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
There's a reason why there are four empowerments in HYT - they plant the seeds for the four bodies of a Buddha. Cultivating one seed, i.e., that planted by the fourth empowerment, is not sufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
It is absolutely sufficient:

Tsongkhapafan said:
Actually, it really isn't. The Sambhogakaya arises from the Dharmakaya and the Nirmanakaya emerges from the Sambhogakaya due to having trained in the three bringings of generation and completion stage; in other words, the two stages. Do you think this happens automatically? If there is no motivation, no love, no great compassion, no bodhichitta, no three bringings, none of this will happen automatically. You can't build a house without a solid foundation.

How many stages are you missing out? renunciation? Bodhichitta? Correct view of emptiness?

Don't be in too much of a rush because you'll miss something important.

As for the Chandrakirti analogy, consequences are a useful way of realising emptiness but syllogisms are also important and play their part - don't be in a hurry to bin something that might be important. Even contemplating consequences is a gradual path.


Malcolm wrote:
When you realize dharmakāya, everything else happens automatically. Since the three kāyas are innate, there is no need for effort on a path to realize them. In fact, effort obscures them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 23rd, 2017 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
There's a reason why there are four empowerments in HYT - they plant the seeds for the four bodies of a Buddha. Cultivating one seed, i.e., that planted by the fourth empowerment, is not sufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
It is absolutely sufficient:


For example, the trikāya chapter in the Suvarnaprabhāsa Sūtra states:

For example, lightening arises in an empty sky and light appears based upon lightening. Likewise, the sambhogakāya appears based on dharmakāya and the nirmanakāya appears based on the sambhogakāya.
The Mahāyāna-sūtrālaṃk̄ara states:
The divisions of the kāyas of the buddhas
are the svabhāvakāya and the sambhogakāya,
and the other one is the nirmanakāya.
The first two are supports.
And:
The svabhāvakāya is uniform,
subtle, connected with [the sambhogakāya],
exhibits the enjoyment of all joys,
and is asserted as the cause of the abundance of the sambhogakāya.
The svabhāva/dharmakāya is what one realizes for oneself. This realization spontaneously produces the other two kāyas. Therefore, it is sufficient to realize the dharmakāya alone.

The difference is that people of your inclination, gradualists, are algorithmic in their approach and understanding of practice and realization. People of our inclination, non-gradualists, are dialectical in our approach and understanding of practice and realization.

In fact, the whole Prasanga approach of Candrākirtī makes gradualism unnecessary. Just as one does not need to use syllogism (a form of algorithm) to demonstrate emptiness, and can demonstrate emptiness through consequences (a form of dialectics), likewise, one can realize dharmakāya dialectically, without the need to go step by step. Even in sūtrayāna, such persons are called thod rgal bas, people who skip stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 23rd, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not essential in the least.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Buddha Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa and all realised Tantric adepts disagree with you.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


heart said:
Perhaps I am expressing myself badly, I am rather saying that bskyed rim doesn't really work without rDzogs chen.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
I can go along with that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not essential in the least.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
heart said:
Thinking you need perfect shamata to arrive at vipassana is common but the truth is that shamata always have some vipassana. In fact it is impossible to develop shamata without a little bit of vipassana.

Malcolm wrote:
Really, so all Hindus have a little bit of vipaśyāna in their śamatha? Really?




heart said:
In the same way completion is impossible without development and development without completion. It is, or should be, integration with the natural state.

Malcolm wrote:
If we take you seriously, you are claiming that rDzogs chen is impossible without bskyed rim and rdzogs rim!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
dreambow said:
How to define liberation: "Not being bound, attracted or repulsed by any one particular 'realm' is called the dawning of the Svabhavikakaya in the mindstream.
When activities of body, speech and mind no longer entail karmic consequences, one is said to have attained Abhisambodhikaya (perfect kaya of complete awakening)"
Many definitions and all true pointers.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you need to study the stages of the path a little more systematically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:36 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:


Stefos said:
What my ultimate goal in picking apart things, per se, is that there are people who cannot even understand Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Tantra or deeper levels of "meditative absorption" or Jhanas, let alone "attain" it or them, what have you.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen/mahāmudra are for everyone who wishes to understand them.


Stefos said:
If the perception isn't there, the understanding of the concept isn't there.
If a physiological problem is present such as a TBI, Schizophrenia (full blown) or Wet brain syndrome....things get even more dicey.

Malcolm wrote:
This called "lacking a precious human birth."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
Would you accept that Mahamudra is a completion stage realisation, or is it something else?

Malcolm wrote:
“Mahāmudrā” is a mental imputation of the childish.
Virupa


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Hashang was wrong to want to abandon all conceptuality...

Malcolm wrote:
Classic example of fake news.  Hashang's view is much more profound the Kamalashila's. But centuries of misrepresentation and politics have obscured this fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
Conceptual minds create, and the conceptual minds of generation stage create the cause for completion stage experiences.

Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of the creation stage is remedy attachment to impure perception. The purpose of the completion stage is to eliminate attachment even to pure perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Matt J said:
No doubt, if the Dzogchen Atiyoga is the primordial vehicle, which rather than being a philosophical system is the direct, nonconceptual Vision (of) the primordial state, and which qua primordial vehicle is (as stated in the Samten Migdrön) the universal ancestor of all vehicles, by no means could it be circumscribed to a single religious system, a single country or a single culture.
--- Elias Capriles (DC instructor)

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, Samantabhadra claims that all vehicles are his vehicles, he then sets out which of those vehicles view keep one trapped in samsara (60), and he then presents the nine vehicles which lead one out of it.
though my vehicles are inconceivable,
they are included in two categories:
samsara and nirvana.
Further, samsara includes: [53/b]
the false view and the eternalist view.
The false vehicle
is held to be 360 beliefs in a self.
The nine vehicles of course, are the vehicles of nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Matt J said:
It is logical to hypothetize that Shaivism may have had its roots in Bön, which prevailed in the region of Mount Kailash ever since Tönpa Shenrab Miwochei established it there some 3.800 years ago, and which contains its own Dzogchen teachings, part of which may have leaked into Shaivism.
--- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Malcolm wrote:
I am afraid that this speculation by Norbu Rinpoche cannot stand up to scrutiny. We  can hypothesize all we want, but especially when there is counterfactual evidence, such a hypothesis cannot stand. There are no Great Perfection teachings in Shaivism, Kashmiri or otherwise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
zenman said:
How about on purely mental level?

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure what you mean.


zenman said:
How about on purely mental level?

Vasana said:
Dzogchen Semde is probably the most mind oriented in terms of it's approach to practice- i.e, no deliberate modification of body or breath or any visualization.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is wrong. "Sems sde" also involves prāṇayāma, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


heart said:
I don't agree. Doing the generation stage make you have experiences that can't be grasped or understood by conceptual ideas. If Dharma was a conceptual idea everyone would have figured it out by now, enlightenment would be a university course.

Malcolm wrote:
The creation stage is completely conceptual. Experiences are nothing but concepts. The reason we have a completion stage to begin with is to remedy the conceptuality of the creation stage.

heart said:
That is only true if you practice them in that order, the annutaratantra style. In the Nyingma they are inseparable development and completion once you received the direct introduction.

Malcolm wrote:
Even in the gsar ma schools, creation and completion are supposed to practiced as an inseparable unity. Nevertheless, in fact people generally practice sadhanas, regardless of school, in two phases. Even if you are practicing the creation stage and completion stage inseparably, the fact is that the reason you do so is because the creation stage is completely conceptual since it is based in words and concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


heart said:
I don't agree. Doing the generation stage make you have experiences that can't be grasped or understood by conceptual ideas. If Dharma was a conceptual idea everyone would have figured it out by now, enlightenment would be a university course.

Malcolm wrote:
The creation stage is completely conceptual. Experiences are nothing but concepts. The reason we have a completion stage to begin with is to remedy the conceptuality of the creation stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.

zenman said:
How about on purely mental level?

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure what you mean.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
zenman said:
What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
zenman said:
I saw the date for the lung (18.6.) but not the name and the way the lung is given. Is this information available yet?


Malcolm wrote:
It will streamed live over the web. I will have more definitive information soon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
zenman said:
No deity allergy here. I am just wondering if such a method exists or not. I suppose not based on your comments which I am grateful for.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, many.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
zenman said:
Are there ways of practice of dzogchen or mahamudra that uses something else than tantric deity/ies as a method of practice?

Malcolm wrote:
There are many practices within Dzogchen that do not involve deity yoga. But one should not be allergic to deity practices if one is a Dzogchen practitioner.

Guru Yoga, however, is indispensable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Are Tibetans racist?
Content:
tingdzin said:
IMO, "racism" is an imprecise and badly overworked word. In the present context, for example, are Tibetans really a "race"? What does the word mean, really? Certainly there are vast phenotypical (meaning visually apparent ) differences between Tibetans who come from the border areas of Amdo, for example, and those who come from areas near Ladakh. I suspect there is also considerable genotypical variation. Similarly, there are Thai people who look like Chinese, Burmans, Malays, Khmer, etc., but there is a concept of "Thainess" that has more to do with cultural assumptions than physical appearance or even political citizenship.

A more precise word might be "ethnocentric". Granted, it does not lend itself to name-calling as well as the word "racist", but it seems more accurate in a lot of cases where the term "racism" is bandied about.

Malcolm wrote:
I have met a a number of Tibetans who have pretty negative attitudes about "mi nag pos," blacks. In Tibet, a lot of Tibetans are very bigoted towards Chinese Hui Muslims, and invent outrageous tales about them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
monktastic said:
Other religions don't have refuge and bodhicitta. Of course, neither does Buddhism: it is the practitioners that have those things. For one who naturally takes refuge in the principle we happen to know as "Buddha," who knows what is possible?

Stefos said:
Monktastic,

The Theravadas don't have bodhicitta nor rlung nor Dharma protectors.

Malcolm wrote:
They have all three actually. Theravadin texts discuss vāyu/marut because it is part of the Indian system of medicine (Ayurveda). They have bodhicitta, in other words, one can take the bodhisattva vow in Theravada, they merely understand it quite differently than Mahāyāna. They indeed have dharmapālas, look at the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.32.0.piya.html in the Digha Nikāya


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Stefos said:
Monktastic,

The Theravadas don't have bodhicitta nor rlung nor Dharma protectors.

monktastic said:
Yes, and from the POV of much of Mahayana, they do not attain the same realization. This isn't the place to discuss that (nor am I the person to discuss it with), but given the very different metaphysical assertions they arrive at, it doesn't seem unreasonable. Perhaps it's not crazy to think there's more in common between the mystical traditions of different religions, than between any of them and their orthodox roots.

Hence: refuge in the principle that we (Mahayanists) just happen to call "Buddha."

Malcolm wrote:
According to all Mahāyāna texts, śrāvaka arhats, pratyekabuddhas and buddhas are all the same in terms of their liberation. The difference between them is omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
muni said:
How can there be nondual nature/dzogchen, while at the same time perceiving others with another nondual nature? Nondual = not one, not two, not many. Or no self-no other.
And still there is perception of other selves with a characteristic which is believing in a self-nondual by its doctrine?

Malcolm wrote:
The Great Perfection, like all other expressions of Buddhadharma, posits that individuals are unique and independent from one another. Everyone bears their own karma and results, everyone accumulates and purifies afflictions individually, everyone cycles through samsara on their own through the power of their own delusion.

The Buddha never rejected a conventional self, just as he never rejected the principle of the individual accumulation and ripening of karma.

The term "nondual" in Dzogchen texts, depending on context, either means freedom from the extremes of existence and nonexistence, or it means that we confuse our personal, individual experience of the world as a self and an other in absence of self and an other which can be established.

It does not mean that everything is one substance or one consciousness, etc. The latter proposition is a nonBuddhist point of view with no place in Buddhadharma at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
dreambow said:
How to define liberation is difficult.

Malcolm wrote:
The definition of liberation is consistent in Buddhadharma, from the canon of the śrāvakas to the tantras of the Great Perfection. In all these Buddhadharma traditions, liberation is defined as freedom from afflictions that cause rebirth in the three realms. Apart from that, there is no other liberation taught in Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
dreambow said:
Ramana Maharshi said "One consciousness, equally distributed everywhere because of delusion we give it unequal distribution. No distribution, no everywhere"
The teachings of 'advaita' whether it be Ramana, Dattatreya or Nisargadatta is no different to Dzogchen 'the great perfection'. You can knit pick if you want but I can't see any glaring  difference.

Malcolm wrote:
The Great Perfection is completely different than Advaita in any form.

In the Great Perfection, vdyā/rigpa is understood to be particular and unique to each sentient being. There is no "unified field" of vidyā or field of consciousness which permeates all beings in the Great Perfection. Those who believe so have not understood a single word of Great Perfection teachings, much less a single word of the teachings of the Buddha.

Great Perfection Tantras explicitly reject the point of view you espouse above, going so far as to list Śankaracarya in the list of 60 teachers who teach wrong view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:


Stefos said:
Consider what R.M. said and then see "Does this match Mahamudra?"  "Does this match Dzogchen?"

Malcolm wrote:
What RM says is consistent with Advaita, not Mahāmudra or Dzogchen.


Stefos said:
The Buddha himself did practice what his 2 famous teachers taught him, as is found in the Pali Nikayas.
Although not leading to liberation, he never said "Well.....you know......just forget it because it's completely useless."
He used what they taught him.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha found the formless āyatana concentrations he was taught by Udraka Ramapūtra and Ārāla Kālāma useless in so far as they did not lead to liberation, but instead merely created traces for taking rebirth in the formless āyatanas. So, yes, he did state these were completely useless.

Most people do not realize that meditation is a kind of karma that creates results. When ordinary, common people meditate on the form realm dhyānas for the formless dhyānas they are creating seeds for rebirth in these realms. When Buddha meditated on these dhyānas he did so in order to observe that they were suffering, a cause for suffering, and that there was a cessation and a path from that suffering. When he had meditated and recognized the pernicious nature of all of these meditative "accomplishments," he entered the Vajropama-samadhi which destroyed every last trace of latent affliction which would cause rebirth in the three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Content:
zenman said:
Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?


Malcolm wrote:
There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Which American identity?

binocular said:
Exactly. I think it was discussed earlier in this thread, or some other that while there is a strongly established concept of there existing and "American identity," it's not clear what that "American identity" actually is. American people keep talking about American this, American that, so one would think they mean something by it, but it's not clear what exactly they refer to. Perhaps this is what is the central characteristic of "American identity," even as it flies in the face of the concept ot "identity" as such. Ie., identity as an empty shell or an outer layer under which it is not acceptable...

Malcolm wrote:
They are mostly referring to our national myth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 21st, 2017 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Stefos said:
I have yet to see any Buddhist writer or commentator confirm or affirm ANY meditative accomplishment from anyone outside of Buddhadharma.

dzogchungpa said:
Perhaps you should try talking to one privately.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because we all know how reliable personal opinions about such issues are, especially when they fly in the face of 2500 years of consistent, reasoned assertions to the contrary by people counted in our tradition as awakened in their own right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?
Content:
Joka said:
I'm confused, are you saying that there is no European collective ethnicity or identity?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. There is no collective European ethnicity or identity.

binocular said:
I've often seen that Americans tend to think of Europe as basically similar to the US...

Malcolm wrote:
Americans are somewhat provincial in their outlook on the world. It is understandable, we are the new Rome.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:


Stefos said:
What's going on here between the polemics of Buddhadharma & Sanatana Dharma?
I have yet to see any Buddhist writer or commentator confirm or affirm ANY meditative accomplishment
from anyone outside of Buddhadharma.
Why is it that?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha and his disciples have always considered that nonBuddhists suffer from wrong view. That wrong view prevents them from attaining liberation.

Buddha declared in many places, "Outside of my Dharma and discipline, I do not see any liberated persons."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:


zenman said:
I can appreciate the detailed articulation. But I do not think the recognition of the nature of mind is dependent on as complex articulation.

Malcolm wrote:
Upon what do you think it depends?

zenman said:
Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
And are there gurus who point out the nature of the mind outside of Buddhadharma? if so, who? And from whom did they receive this introduction?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?
Content:
Joka said:
[


Alright, what's wrong with people having a national identity then especially for various Europeans?

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing wrong with people having ethnic or national identities, per se.

The problem arises when people discriminate against others based on imaginary differences between human beings based on ethnicity.

In fact, there is only one human race, and we live on one planet. We have to make this planet work for everyone, as best we can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
zenman said:
I always felt it strange how buddhists are so keen to deny that people from other religions couldn't recognize their nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not strange at all. Other religions do not even parse things in these terms. How can you realize something you cannot even articulate?

zenman said:
I can appreciate the detailed articulation. But I do not think the recognition of the nature of mind is dependent on as complex articulation.

Malcolm wrote:
Upon what do you think it depends?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Any Vajrayana centers in or near Iowa/Minnesota border?
Content:
Grigoris said:
No I'm not moving, I am asking on behalf of a friend of mine.


Malcolm wrote:
Lama Dawa

http://saraswatibhawan.org


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
zenman said:
I always felt it strange how buddhists are so keen to deny that people from other religions couldn't recognize their nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not strange at all. Other religions do not even parse things in these terms. How can you realize something you cannot even articulate?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Otherwise, the consequence is that one is asserting that Padmasambhava is asserting, contra all sūtras on the subject, that the self of the nonBuddhists is equivalent with the tathāgatagarbha, the all-basis, and so on.

Grigoris said:
It seems to me that what he is saying is that the Tirthika confuse their experience of the all-basis and mistakenly label it as a "self".

None of my teachers have ever claimed that Mahamudra is a quality/state of relative mind, so it seems bizarre to me that it should be equated in this manner.

Malcolm wrote:
The mahāmudra of the basis is the all-basis. The all-basis mind has a relative aspect as well as an ultimate one. It is also is often said that in mahāmudra texts that buddhahood cannot be found outside of the mind. For example, Tilopa says "When the mind lacks a reference point, this is mahāmudrā."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 20th, 2017 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is a common misunderstanding of this passage. What the passage is actually referring to is the different names people have for the mind, the relative aspect...

Grigoris said:
Tathāgatagarbha, Mahāmudra and the All-basis as names for the relative mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely. For example, in Dzogchen teachings (of which this text is one), the all-basis( kun gzhi, ālaya ) is considered merely a repository of traces. It is different than the the basis ( gzhi, sthana ). In the Yogacara school, tathāgatagarbha is considered to be another name of the ālayavijñāna.

Otherwise, the consequence is that one is asserting that Padmasambhava is asserting, contra all sūtras on the subject, that the self of the nonBuddhists is equivalent with the tathāgatagarbha, the all-basis, and so on.

On the other hand, the text later clarifies the meaning of the madhyamaka, tathāgatagarbha, ordinary mind, and ālaya with respect to vidyā, but it never invokes the self of the nonBuddhists in that discussion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen/Mahamudra & Vichara......same or different?
Content:
zenman said:
The book, Self-liberation through seeing with naked awareness (trans. John Myrdhin Reynolds), which is a teaching of Guru Rinpoche, says that the views of the tirthikas, the buddhists and the dzogchen refer to the same truth, on page 12.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a common misunderstanding of this passage. What the passage is actually referring to is the different names people have for the mind, the relative aspect.
"The so-called mind is knowing (rig rig) and clear (tur tur),
With respect to its existence, it does not exist as even one thing;
with respect to a source, it is the source of the variety of samsara and nivana, happiness and suffering. 
With respect to assertions about it, there are assertions about it according to eleven vehicles. 
It [the mind] is give inconceivable individual names. 
(1) Some call it "the mind-essence," "the mind-essence."
(2) Some non-Buddhists give it the name "the self."
(3) Śrāvakas call "oral instruction,"oral instruction." (absence of self of persons taught by the Buddha)
(4) Cittamatrins give it the name "mind."
(5) Some call it "prajñāpāramitā."
(6) Some give it the name "tathāgatagarbha."
(7) Some give it the name "mahāmudra."
(8) Some give it the name "sole unique bindu."
(9) Some give it the name "dharmadhātu."
(10) Some give it the name "all-basis."
(11) Some give it the name "ordinary."
Thus, we can see from this that the text, The Introduction to Vidyā entitled "The Self-liberation through Naked Seeing, is not claiming that all vehicles are party to the same truth, but rather, that everyone has different names for the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Grigoris said:
Why would it surprise you?

Malcolm wrote:
Every other account of the Buddha's mother in all schools held that she was a queen, not a whore.

Grigoris said:
The two professions are not mutually exclusive.  Take Trump's wife, for example.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is not whether a prostitute or a courtesan can be elevated to the level of a queen. The point is that this is an anomalous account.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: Don't pay for Dharma Books?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Question 1: how many of you own Natural Liberation (Wisdom Pubs)?

Question 2: how many of you have the lung for it?

Pero said:
I don't own it and don't have the lung for it.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but many people here do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Grigoris said:
Why would it surprise you?

Malcolm wrote:
Every other account of the Buddha's mother in all schools held that she was a queen, not a whore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
Malcolm wrote: If they were beginners, they just wore white like everyone else in public, and in private, they wore their requisite ornaments if they could afford them or carried a card painted with them.
1)Was it typical for the sadhu wearing bone ornaments to be naked?
2)Can you describe a little more the painted card, is this a replica ornament?

Malcolm wrote:
The painted card has a picture of the six bone ornaments, khatvanga, bell, vajra, etc.

Yes, in India, the bone ornaments would be worn while naked:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:


heart said:
Those things don't surprise me anymore.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
It is a very strange claim.

heart said:
If he was the son of a prostitute or the son of a king his activity was equally impressive and inspiring for me.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
The only reason it is a strange claim it is the only time I have ever seen such a claim made anywhere. When I read it, it really surprised me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They are roused from samadhi, and are set upon the bodhisattva path.

Brev said:
Loppon, after an arhat is roused from samadhi, is it possible for them to fall into the lower realms and away from the Dharma? Or is there cessation of afflictions permanent?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not possible for them to fall into lower realms as a result of affliction, through for the purpose of skillful means it is possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
His edition, while a valiant attempt at text criticism, is a total mess. The original version attributed to Zhang Gnas gsar is much better, in my opinion.

BTW, you will be very surprised to learn that in the Great Chronicle it is claimed that Śakyamuni was the son of a prostitute rather than a king.

heart said:
Those things don't surprise me anymore.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
It is a very strange claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:


heart said:
If I understand correctly Dharma Senge made a "critical edition" of the The Great Image based on five other versions of the same text. At least that is what he says and I see no particular reason to don't trust that. It is anyway pretty clear to me that it is a very inspiring book.

Malcolm wrote:
His edition, while a valiant attempt at text criticism, is a total mess. The original version attributed to Zhang Gnas gsar is much better, in my opinion.

BTW, you will be very surprised to learn that in the Great Chronicle it is claimed that Śakyamuni was the son of a prostitute rather than a king.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:


heart said:
If I understand correctly Dharma Senge made a "critical edition" of the The Great Image based on five other versions of the same text. At least that is what he says and I see no particular reason to don't trust that. It is anyway pretty clear to me that it is a very inspiring book.

Malcolm wrote:
His edition, while a valiant attempt at text criticism, is a total mess. The original version attributed to Zhang Gnas gsar is much better, in my opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Don't pay for Dharma Books?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Stealing a book maybe, but the Dharma cannot be filched.

Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, taking a Vajrayāna book for which you do not have transmission is considered stealing the Dharma.

Pero said:
If so, then we are practically all Dharma thieves since I very much doubt that none of use have in their entire lifetime read no books which we didn't have transmissions for. It's a pretty strange opinion to hold for you too, since you just published a book which most people don't have a transmission for, in effect making anyone who reads it a dharma thief according to this reasoning.

Great book btw.
Though I haven't read it in full yet. Looking forward to the lung!

Malcolm wrote:
As long as people intend to try and at least find a proper Dzogchen teacher, than as far as I am concerned, they can read whatever they want and their teacher will sort out any misconceptions they may have gained. If they do not intend to find a teacher, they can still read tregchö and thögal instructions that have been published by famous teachers on the web and buy them in books with no questions asked, like Natural Liberation.

Question 1: how many of you own Natural Liberation (Wisdom Pubs)?

Question 2: how many of you have the lung for it?

A lot of this business about restricted texts is western neurosis. I have mentioned before that in my opinion, there is a lot of stuff from Anuttarayoga tantra that is far more deserving of being "restricted" than anything one can read in a Dzogchen tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
Grigoris said:
Would you say that the above pictured yogins are caught up in the rind because they maintain the samaya of ngakpa garb and accouterments?


Malcolm wrote:
I would have to meet them personally to find out. I don't judge people from pictures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
Karma Jinpa said:
Garchen Rinpoche also explained the symbolism of the red and white striped zen during the Yamantaka Wangchen over the recent Winter Teachings at GBI.  He said that on the ngakpa robes, white represents love and compassion, or relative bodhicitta, and red represents ultimate bodhicitta.

Malcolm wrote:
That is certainly one explanation though it is not the explanation in my tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We should just be grown up about it and derive our confidence in the teachings based on what they teach, not where they are  supposed to come from.

florin said:
Isn't kama literature based on transmission and this transmission itself based on historical figures ?
Are we to disregard that ?

To me this is being grown up, being able to trace back in time the entire lineage of trasmission of a said text, tradition, etc.
But historically we cannot do that .

For example CNNr places Garab Dorje's existence as far back as 200 BCE maybe even earlier.
What happens to the transmission of dzogchen between this date and early 8th or 9th century ?

We have a gap of around 1000 years where we no nothing about dzogchen transmission .

heart said:
Have you read "The Great Image"? http://www.shambhala.com/the-great-image.html It contains a very long and interesting Dzogchen lineage.
I always rely on the traditional accounts of lineage, even if there is no historical facts supporting it right now. Why? Because if you can accept that Vimalamitra gave Chetsun Senghe Wangchuk complete transmission of the Vima Nyingtik then everything is possible. Just like ChNNR received so much teachings over the years in dreams from so many different masters of the past. Like the Longsal Yangtik being a direct transmission from Dungtso Repa himself and so on. The lineage can look pretty strange for ordinary eyes but it doesn't mean that it isn't true.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Magnus:

The Great Image translated by Ani Jinpa is a very flawed book (though not because of her translation). If you look at the colophon, you will see that it was cobbled together and edited from various sources in the late 19th century by Dharma Senge because he thought the original terma version which was taken out by Jomo Menmo was too difficult for non-scholars to understand since it has many, many, interesting citations. Even though it is a terma, it is not a terma in the traditional sense in that it was composed by another Tibetan, Zhang Gnas gsar, who is 12th in line of the oral transmission from Vairocana. So it was not written down until a couple of centuries later.

The earliest recension of the accounts found in the 'Dra 'bag chen mo that are available to us is in the commentary on the Cuckoo of Vidya that I mentioned above which is found in the Bairo rgyud 'bum. The Bairo 'gyud 'bum text mentions the lineage you mention, but states that it happens within the span of 200 hundred years or eight human generations. So if we assume that Vairocana meets Śr̄ī Siṃha in the late eight century, this means that Garab Dorje's birth can be dated at the earliest around 600 CE.

In short, there is nothing wrong per se with the various conflicting lineage histories of Dzogchen. But when doing history we should not take them literally as facts, in the same way that we do not take Tonpa Shenrab's birth 18,000 years ago as a fact merely because the Bonpos claim it to be so. As I mention above, when it comes to history, it needs to correspond to ordinary human perception. This applies the Buddha, Jesus, Tonpa Shenrab, Garab Dorje, Muhammed, Shankaracarya, and any other founder or major figure of a religion about whom fantastic legends gradually develop. If we do take them as facts, we will wind up becoming fundamentalist ninnies.

Wth respect to visionary encounters, such as that between Vima and Chetsun, that is a whole different ball of wax. That cannot be subject to any kind of analysis. One either accepts it or not.

The real lineage of Dzogchen cannot be found in a book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 19th, 2017 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We should just be grown up about it and derive our confidence in the teachings based on what they teach, not where they are  supposed to come from.

florin said:
Isn't kama literature based on transmission and this transmission itself based on historical figures ?
Are we to disregard that ?

Malcolm wrote:
The only bka' ma traditions of Dzogchen are "sems sde" and the Vajra Bridge. Everything else, all of it, is terma.

For example, Dangma Lhungyal discovered the 17 tantras 30 years before he passed them onto Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, and Chetsun was only 15 when he received them. He received them, according to the only account we have, after the passing of Atisha. Atisha passed away in 1054. We do not know exactly how long after Chetsun met Dangma Lhungyal that Atisha passed. But, what we do know is that Zhangton received the 17 tantras from Chegom Ngapo in 1108. The only really firm fact we have in any of this is that Zhangton studied with Chegom for one year in 1108, according to Zhangton's son and revealed the Vima sNying thig in 1118. And of course, this presumes that the Nyinthig lineage account is the most definitive, which is questionable. But it is makes for very fun reading, with dragon-riding dākinīs and so on.


florin said:
To me this is being grown up, being able to trace back in time the entire lineage of trasmission of a said text, tradition, etc.
But historically we cannot do that .

Malcolm wrote:
We can trace the historical part back to Śrī Siṃha. There is definitely an aural transmission. It is my point of view that the textual tradition developed out of this preexisting tradition. It seems that in India there were some short texts written, like the Great Space of Vajrasattva that were systematized into the Kun byed rgyal po, but there is zero chance, in my opinion, that the bulk of the Kun byed rgyal po is a translated text, unlike the four chapters which are incorporated into it based on the five early translations made by Vairocana [the fifth is the Cultivation of Bodhicitta by Mañjuśrīmitra, which I regard his actual composition]. We do not need to doubt the historicity of Garab Dorje, Mañjuśrīmitra, and Śri Siṃha, but it is unlikely, in my opinion, that Garab Dorje and Mañjuśrīmitra lived any earlier than the late seventh and early eighth centuries. Valby thinks the Mdo bcu was written by Vairocana, for example, but it is presented as an independent text in the sems sde section. As I have noted elsewhere, the whole division of Dzogchen into the three series is something which first appears in the Vima Snying thig in 1118. It is possible this idea was floating around in the very limited circles of those who were promulgating the 17 tantras prior to this time, but there is zero evidence for it.

florin said:
For example CNNr places Garab Dorje's existence as far back as 200 BCE maybe even earlier.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as dating Garab Dorje (Vajraprahelā) based on the Great Chronicle written by Zhangton — the Great Chronicle places the the birth of Garab Dorje 360 years after the parinirvana of the Buddha. It places the removal of the Vima Snying thig 1568 years after the parinirvana. Subtracting 360 from 1568 equals 1208, and subtracting 1208 from 1118 = -90, thus we arrive at a date of 90 BCE for the date of Garab Dorje's birth according to the Great Chronicle.


florin said:
What happens to the transmission of dzogchen between this date and early 8th or 9th century ?

Malcolm wrote:
The earliest sems sde history we have is from the Bairo rgyud 'bum. But is probably written in the 12th century and is contemporary with the Great Chronicle and the Vajra Bridge history. But it could not be more different in content and scope. In any case, there are two different versions of the birth of Garab Dorje, two of which agree on some details (klong sde and man ngag sde): he was born in Danakosha, a region or an island in Oddiyāna, he was born of a virgin birth, and his mother was the daughter of the king which suggest a common source. The names however of the king and the daughter differ completely. In the Vajra Bridge account there is no mention that the daughter is a nun. It is a major point in the Great Chronicle. The manner of conception differs as well — in the Vajra Bridge, Garab Dorje's birth is heralded by a turquoise cuckoo. No such mention is made in the Great Chronicle. The earliest "sems sde" account, the commentary on the Rig pa'i khu byug in the Bairo rgyud 'bum lacks any mention of these events.


florin said:
We have a gap of around 1000 years where we no nothing about dzogchen transmission .

Malcolm wrote:
It is only the Great Chronicle which gives positive dates for Garab Dorje, 90 BCE to 454 CE. According to it, Mañjuśrīmitra I rainbows in 740. Supposedly the second Mañjuśrīmitra II, his emanations comes in 1065, but of course this is much too late. In fact the chronology of events in the Great Chronicle does not stand up to scrutiny at all. So we cannot take it seriously with respect to dates of this or that person since it places the second Mañjuśrīmitra II not only after Śrī Siṃha, but also after Vimalamitra leaves for China.

Also the sems sde commentary mentioned above states there are 23 masters in the sems sde lineage spanning only 8 human generations. A generation is 25 years, thus the lineage is only 200 years old when it reaches Vairocana, if we accept the sems sde account in the Bairo rgyud 'bum. The Vajra Bridge lineage is short: Garab Dorje, Mañjuśrīmitra, Śrī Siṃha, and Vairocana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
mani said:
Thank you everybody for your answers. I still have some questions.

If is just a matter of dressing to blend with the sangha, why is that there are empowerments for each garment and earrings, and hair and else, is not just a vow to wear them but an empowerment right? why is the long hair considered the mandala of dakinis? I mean I think wearing all of these must have a profound meaning, is not just fashion.

Malcolm wrote:
Long hair is not considered a mandala of ḍakinīs, it has to be blessed that way. Otherwise long hair is just long hair.

In Indian Vajrayāna, each deity has it's own special commitments in terms of accouterments. For example, if you receive the Cakrasamvara empowerments, you were expected to have a set of six bone ornaments. In the beginning, when one's practice is at the level of weak heat on the path of application, one would be expected to wear these in private, and when one's practice becomes stronger, one would be expected to test one's resolve in practice by wearing them in increasingly public settings. For example, the reason why Padmasambhava holds a skullcup and a vajra is that is part of the commitments of having received the Śrī Heruka (Yang dag) empowerment, his main yidam.

Tibet is a different place than India and a different culture, so a different set of accouterments developed over the Indian layer. Slowly, over time, in a different culture, a new set of accouterments developed and became meaningful. Tibet is a country where it is difficult to run around half-naked like an Indian sadhu. In India, no mantrins wore a red and white shawl. If they were beginners, they just wore white like everyone else in public, and in private, they wore their requisite ornaments if they could afford them or carried a card painted with them. Tibet is a pretty cold place, so it is not practical for most people to run around without clothes.

Since we are in the Dzogchen forum, I will speak plainly. Dzogchen practitioners have no need of these kind of things. It has nothing to do with Dzogchen practice directly. The real point of the hair empowerment, as it relates to Dzogchen, is to have uncontrived hair, uncontrived clothes, and uncontrived dwellings, because the principle of Dzogchen is nonfabrication. To summarize, having an elegant Ngakpa kit defeats the whole meaning of uncontrived hair, cloths, etc.

When my guru Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje emerged from his first three year retreat in the early 1950's, he looked like a ragged bum. When he went to see Dudjom Rinpoche in Kongpo, he arrived where Dudjom Rinpoche was teaching, and sat in the back. But when Dudjom Rinpoche saw him there, he made fun of all the elegant Ngakpas sitting in the Gonpa for their carefully tended hair, ornaments, and robes, and asked Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje come and sit next to him, commenting that Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje was a real Ngakpa, unlike all the elegant so called Ngakpas sitting in the assembly. So if we want to be Ngakpas, it should be our intention to be real Ngakaps. Also, if we wish to kit up and run around in Ngakpa gear, it is probably better that we first develop some power of mantra. This does not happen overnight. For this reason, some teachers forbid their students to where Ngakpa gear until they have some juice in their practice.

Now, for someone who is following a Dzogchen path, Ngakpa ordinations can be aspirational. But it is not necessary for Dzogchen practitioners to receive these kinds of empowerments. If we do, it is probably a result of past karma, as Greg mentioned.

A Dzogchen practitioner has no need to become a monk, but there are many monks that practice Dzogchen. It is not necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner to become a ngakpa, but there are many ngakpas who also practice Dzogchen. In the primary empowerment texts of the Dzogchen tradition, you will never discover an empowerment which requires one to wear anything. It is not even necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner to become a lay person with all five vows. It is not even necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner to formally declare allegiance to this or that form of Buddhism, Tibetan or otherwise. Why? Because Dzogchen is the essence of Buddhadharma. Buddhism is fragmented into sects and traditions. Dzogchen is beyond sects and traditions. Buddhism is cultural. Dzogchen is beyond culture. Buddhism is a religion. Dzogchen is beyond religion.

I am not telling you this because I do not like the Ngakpa tradition. The Ngakpa tradition is just fine. But it really does not have anything to do with being a Dzogchen practitioner. When one is a Dzogchen practitioner, it is important to go to the core of the teachings and not be caught up in the rind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
Grigoris said:
It's funny though how westerners will always attribute one's desire to practice as a ngakpa with ego, and seem incapable of considering that it may be due to past karma.  But then we do tend to (mistakenly) consider our ego as the driving force of our existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Self-grasping is the driving force of our existence. Without it, we would not take rebirth in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:



florin said:
In that case the entire conventional and traditional narrative of how dzogchen was transmitted and evolved on our planet is completely false.
Moreover, the existence of the first early masters is in doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to this, there is a mythical origin of Dzogchen teachings, legendary one, and a historical one.

The former involves all discussions of teachers in the distant past. The legendary one involves some accounts of the Buddha and Garab Dorje, etc. The historical one begins with persons that can be verified by more than one Indian source, in this case, the Buddha, Śrī Simha, and possibly Manjuśrīmitra and even Garab Dorje. The legendary and historical are intermixed until roughly the 12th century.

But if you approach these traditional accounts as historical facts, then I am sorry to disappoint you. From the ordinary human point of view, these things are not historically factual. We should just be grown up about it and derive our confidence in the teachings based on what they teach, not where they are  supposed to come from.

Accepting these as literal means accepting human beings who lived for 80,000 years and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Grigoris said:
I think that it is true that what we deem as inequality is due to a large degree to past karma ie circumstances we are born into are a consequence of past karma.

Thing is though that our present karma can address the current situation in order to mitigate the problem, to an extent.  While I may be born with a larger share of power and wealth due to my generosity in the past, the only thing that is stopping me from sharing my current power and wealth with this in a less fortunate state, is my actions right now.  Buddhism addresses this issue through the application of the Paramita, these would not be espoused if they were not actually effective.  Okay, ultimately the Paramita are practiced for reasons of Buddhahood and not for political utopian projects, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive.


Malcolm wrote:
It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:


florin said:
I find the commentaries to KG utterly inspiring .

Malcolm wrote:
The commentary on KG is definitely very interesting, nevertheless, the KG, like the whole Atiyoga textual tradition, depends very heavily on the Guhyagarbha for structure, content, and exegetical direction.


florin said:
In what way is this significant ?
What kind of significance does this information hold for someone who wants to study the views of these texts and commentaries ?

Is it somehow meant to cast some doubt on the origin of KG ?

Malcolm wrote:
It means if you really want to understand the Kun byed rgyal po, a composite text which cannot date earlier than the 10th century, one should examine the commentaries on the Guhyagarbha, especially Longchenpa's Dispelling Darkness in the Ten Directions and Rongzom's Jewel Commentary. Why? Because the exegetical precedents we find in the Guhyagarbha influence all later Great Perfection exegetical traditions. For example, the idea that Samantabhadra is a byed pa po, a creator, is more clearly explained in these commentaries than it is in Zhenphan Ozer's commentary on the Kun byed rgyal po itself, the latter dependingly heavily on the former. In other words, the Guhyagarbha gives us the general model, based on which Dzogchen tantras were composed. It is a literary issue, not a criticism of the contents of the Kun byed rgyal po per se.

Apart from the markedly tantric context of Great Perfection texts, they really are just a continuation of the Yogacara synthesis that begins with Maitreyanatha in the 4th century. Why do I say this? Because ideas like Akaniṣṭha and the three kāyas do not appear before this time. Indeed, there are only two sūtras in bka' 'gyur that actually mention all three kāyas by name — the Suvarnaprabhāsottama Sūtra and the Trikāya Sūtra. This is truly amazing when you consider a) the sūtra division of the Bka' 'gyur is 78 volumes of texts and b) the three kāyas are the principle explanatory scheme around which all Tibetan Buddhist schools revolve and the result they all intend to gain. There is a distinct  possibility in fact that the Trikāya chapter in the Suvarnaprabhāsottama Sūtra is based on the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra rather than the other way around. It is certain the Trikāya Sūtra is a condensation of the Trikāya chapter in the Suvarnaprabhāsottama Sūtra.

Norbu Rinpoche, when considering the question of the date of Tonpa Shenrab states, "[S]ince history must be studied in congruence with ordinary human perception, I prefer not to base myself on these traditions." In the same way, when considering the origin of Great Perfection teachings, I have to say that traditions around their dissemination are contradictory in the first place, and in the second, do not stand up to historical research.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Temicco said:
I've tried searching about this but I'm still confused so I thought I'd make a new post.

Does one need lung to read the Kunje Gyalpo? I'm interested in reading The Supreme Source which contains excerpts of the tantra, but I'm not sure how restrictions and transmissions work exactly. Can one read anything, but lung (or dbang? or both? I don't really get the difference) is the proper basis required for practice? Do all tantras need lung(/dbang)? How does ChNN's direct introduction to guruyoga factor into the necessity of specific lungs/dbangs like this? Also, I don't really understand transmission just yet, so it feels like every time I come across a new text/practice I have to ask others if you need dbang/lung for it. Is this typical or is there some memo I'm missing?

~merci~


Malcolm wrote:
At minimum you should have received direct introduction. On the other hand, it is an openly published book. There is nothing very revolutionary in sems sde tantras.

florin said:
I find the commentaries to KG utterly inspiring .

Malcolm wrote:
The commentary on KG is definitely very interesting, nevertheless, the KG, like the whole Atiyoga textual tradition, depends very heavily on the Guhyagarbha for structure, content, and exegetical direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:
mani said:
Malcolm

First of all thank you for giving me a clear answer and not giving a moral sermon like others.
In general, you don't need robes to a Dharma practitioner.
So, you don't wear robes but you don't cut your hair, why is this vow more important than the robes or the earings?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I generally never wear robes. I have them, but I don't wear them. In my tradition, [Kunzang Dechen Lingpa] one's hair is blessed as mandala of ḍākinīs. Whether one wears ngakpa gear or not, one cannot cut one's hair at all. In the Dudjom tradition, there is more flexibility. Many of the Dudjom Ngakpas I know trim their hair from time to time. This kind of defeats the purpose of the Dudjom hair wang, but that is their business and not mine. They do a little confession.

mani said:
As far as Ngakpa vows go, if you gave taken any major empowerment, you already have them.
I have received major empowerments, I didn't know I had them though but I will study them and try to keep them. Does this mean I can dress as a nagkpa now because I already have the vows? Does this mean I took the vow of not cutting my hair?

Malcolm wrote:
Unless you received a hair empowerment specifically, you have no obligation to keep your hair long. As far as the other vows go, anyone who has received a major empowerment in any tradition needs to maintain and respect the fourteen root downfalls and the eight branch downfalls. Then there are the 27 samayas of body, voice, and mind which are the main set of samayas to follow with Nyingma. You can read all of these things in Buddhist Ethics by Kongtrul.

Whether or not you can wear ngakpa gear depends on your guru.

mani said:
In terms of wearing a stripped shawl, as you have already discovered, the criteria for wearing these shawls shifts from Sangha to Sangha. What you can ascertain from this is that there is no canonical rule. The use of the striped shawl is a Tibetan innovation that evolved gradually over time. Lay mantra practitioners in India wore white, like other lay people.
What is the meaning of this shawl? What was the purpose for dressing like this in old Tibet?

Malcolm wrote:
It means different things in different lineages, and that meaning depends on how it is explained during the empowerments. Of course, empowerments with a red and white shawl are strictly a Nyingma thing. There is also no set costume for Ngakpas. Ngakaps in different places wore different things. The present Ngakpa outfit that we commonly see in the West is largely a result of Dudjom Rinpoche's influence. Repkong Ngakpas look completely different.

mani said:
Therefore, you should do as your primary teacher suggests, and not worry about what other people do.
My primary teacher is Padmasambhava, all my Nyingma lamas are his manifestations and they tell me different things about this. What does Padmasambhava says? Can anyone quote him?

Malcolm wrote:
The stripped shawl evolved long after Padmasambhava left Tibet, so I think he has very little to say on the subject. There is one spurious tantra floating around on the internet that makes some claims, but it's source is highly questionable. No Tibetan original seems to exist for this text.

Ngakpas like the Sakya family commonly wear a white lower robe and an upper red shawl. My personal opinion is that the stripped shawl evolved out of this custom. When we see depictions of ancient Ngakpas like the 25 disciples, they are never depicted with the striped shawl. We can understand from this that it is a relatively modern custom that originated in Eastern Tibet within the last 400 hundred years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 18th, 2017 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
zenman said:
Literally in person, no webcast on thogal?


Malcolm wrote:
Correct. Never. So far. Who knows what the future will bring.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: John Oliver interviews the Dalai Lama
Content:
Joka said:
Horse milk in Mongolia?


Malcolm wrote:
They make a kind of alcoholic drink out of it called "kumis."

climb-up said:
Wait, what!?
Maybe I'm misremembering but wasn't he saying he used that to cure alcoholism?
It kind of undermines the success if he was using an alchoholic drink right!? lol!

Malcolm wrote:
He was implying that Mongolians should not drink vodka which is from Russia and very strong, while kumis is native to Mongolia and pretty weak.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Q's about reading the Kunje Gyalpo, and transmission
Content:
Temicco said:
I've tried searching about this but I'm still confused so I thought I'd make a new post.

Does one need lung to read the Kunje Gyalpo? I'm interested in reading The Supreme Source which contains excerpts of the tantra, but I'm not sure how restrictions and transmissions work exactly. Can one read anything, but lung (or dbang? or both? I don't really get the difference) is the proper basis required for practice? Do all tantras need lung(/dbang)? How does ChNN's direct introduction to guruyoga factor into the necessity of specific lungs/dbangs like this? Also, I don't really understand transmission just yet, so it feels like every time I come across a new text/practice I have to ask others if you need dbang/lung for it. Is this typical or is there some memo I'm missing?

~merci~


Malcolm wrote:
At minimum you should have received direct introduction. On the other hand, it is an openly published book. There is nothing very revolutionary in sems sde tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Nagkpa or Nyingma shawl and dress
Content:


mani said:
So, before I decide, I would like to know if someone can clarify these points for me.


Malcolm wrote:
In general, you don't need robes to a Dharma practitioner.

As far as Ngakpa vows go, if you gave taken any major empowerment, you already have them.

In terms of wearing a stripped shawl, as you have already discovered, the criteria for wearing these shawls shifts from Sangha to Sangha. What you can ascertain from this is that there is no canonical rule. The use of the striped shawl is a Tibetan innovation that evolved gradually over time. Lay mantra practitioners in India wore white, like other lay people.

Therefore, you should do as your primary teacher suggests, and not worry about what other people do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.

Malcolm wrote:
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.

Joka said:
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you ought to read Anarchy, State and Utopia by Nozick. You should also read Bookchin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: John Oliver interviews the Dalai Lama
Content:
Joka said:
Horse milk in Mongolia?


Malcolm wrote:
They make a kind of alcoholic drink out of it called "kumis."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only.  This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.

Malcolm wrote:
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.

Joka said:
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.

Malcolm wrote:
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 17th, 2017 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy.  I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.

Joka said:
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only.  This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.

Malcolm wrote:
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Marxism and communism fails because of the inevitable corruption of the political vanguard and once the prevailing ruling class is destroyed this vanguard or organization of the proletariat becomes the new ruling class. Once more what is sad and a testament of the corruptible influences of human nature is that the proletarian vanguard once achieving power turns on all other non-inner party proletarians viciously.

pothigai said:
The theory of the necessity of an authoritarian vanguard party is not common to all strains of Marxist political thought, but is particularly associated with Marxism-Leninism. Many Marxists, on the contrary, seek to establish a social order in which the means of production, and all other institutions, are truly democratic.

Joka said:
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy.  I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Eight Doorways of Spontaneous Manifestation
Content:
dawnbird said:
Hi all,

Is the following correlation correct?

Eight doors of spontaneous manifestation :: Eight dissolutions (empty, black, red, white, flame, fireflies, smoke, mirage)?

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together.

Malcolm wrote:
Hmmm, let's see, you invoked globalists in combination with corporatism, praised nationalism, and now invoke cultural Marxism. So far this makes three alt-right themes you have repeated here. Just how are your views different than Steve Bannon's? Are you a regular reader of Brietbart? Do you haunt 4chan?

Joka said:
When you want world government over the entire globe I don't care who else uses that terminology that makes a person a globalist. I am not a political conservative and I am in no way affiliated with a conservative party or any political party for that matter.

Malcolm wrote:
You can count me as a globalist then, or at least, an internationalist. I suspect we will have a world wide gvt with the next two centuries. Let's hope it is a liberal democratic one, run out of the UN. None of us however, will live to see it. Until then, I hope we will continue to see broad cooperation between nations based on open borders and free trade. In fact, I would like to see Mexico, Canada and the US go one step further than NAFTA, and create something like the EU.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together.

Malcolm wrote:
Hmmm, let's see, you invoked globalists in combination with corporatism, praised nationalism, and now invoke cultural Marxism. So far this makes three alt-right themes you have repeated here. Just how are your views different than Steve Bannon's? Are you a regular reader of Brietbart? Do you haunt 4chan?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Oppression and tyranny are race color blind.

Malcolm wrote:
Total nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:


Joka said:
Whole entire economic systems have become tools of exploitation, slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Economic systems are not immune to conflict.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. South Africa, The US under slavery, etc.

Joka said:
If virtuous nations have a right to defend themselves and nations are comprised of individuals then I would think virtuous individuals have a right to defend themselves as well, no?

Malcolm wrote:
The notion of "rights" is completely divorced from the notion of karma. A king has an obligation to protect his nation, but this not an endorsement of violence.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/harris/wheel392.html#ch2


Joka said:
Somehow I think Japanese people would disagree.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist monks are not permitted to kill human beings. If they do so, they immediately lose their status as monks.

That being said, the so-called warrior monks is a big and complicated subject. If you wish to educate yourself about it you can read Teeth and Claws of the Buddha: Monastic Warriors and Sohei in Japanese History by Adolphson.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.

Joka said:
Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement?

Malcolm wrote:
You need to define which people you think are oppressed and disenfranchised systematically in the US. Are you referring to black communities? Undocumented immigrants? White people living in Minnesota? Native Americans?

If you are white, you hardly qualify as a person suffering under an oppressive tyranny. In other words, you need to be more precise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Joka said:
Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?

Joka said:
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vibhuticandra says much the same thing in his commentary on the Bodhicaryāvatāra:
With respect to the traces of emptiness, since ṡrāvakas and so on cannot bear the fact that all phenomena are empty, it is said they are liberated solely through seeing four truths of nobles. Since they obtain freedom only through the direct perception of the "truths" — suffering, the origin, the cessation, and the path— of what use to them is seeing emptiness?

sherabpa said:
This is a mistranslation. Here Vibhuti he is simply restating the shravakas objection to the Mahayana emptiness, which is 9.40ab of the Charyavatara, i.e. that emptiness is pointless because they meditate on the Four Truths instead.  Vibhuti then gives the response (9.40cd), which as usual is to quote Mahayana sutras for the need to meditate on emptiness, and hence there follows a dispute about why the shravakas should accept the Mahayana sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
Which means that Śantideva is portraying śrāvakas as not meditating on emptiness directly.
It is also somewhat foolish to assert that arhats realize the selflessness of phenomena when it has nothing at all to do with how they achieve their realization since they never even meditate the view of the emptiness of the person let alone emptiness in general.

sherabpa said:
This is contradicted by many masters, e.g. Mipham says in Beacon of Certainty, 'Our own position in that whatever types of shravakas and pratyekabuddhas appeared of yore and reached arhatship did not become liberated without realizing the emptiness of the self that is the apprehension of the aggregates; but just having that realization does not mean that they realized selflessness entirely.'

Malcolm wrote:
But they do not meditate the emptiness of the person directly. They meditate on impermanence and so on. Emptiness of the person is the result they realize, it is not the view they meditate. Your Mipham quote agrees: "...did not become liberated without realizing the emptiness of the self that is the apprehension of the aggregates."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Joka said:
Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:


Joka said:
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends. In most cases, I think Buddhists will flee such a situation or resist nonviolently— for example, Tibet

Joka said:
Flee to where? Where in the world does sanctuary from all of this exist?

The type of world we are living in makes nonviolent resistance either impotent for change or an impossibility.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to be kidding. Nonviolence is the only avenue for resistance against oppression unless you are prepared to destroy whole economies.



Joka said:
This leads me to believe that sometimes war or fighting is necessary and can be justified.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, Buddha stated that virtuous nations have a right to defend themselves.



Joka said:
Another reason I created this thread because in ancient past Buddhist warrior monks like the Sohei fought very passionately for what they believed in.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a Japanese corruption of Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over.

Malcolm wrote:
You are kidding yourself.


Joka said:
I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.

Joka said:
Not kidding myself actually as there are limits to monopoly economics and finance where eventually parasitic crony capitalism collapses on itself. This will become more apparent within the next decade.  We are reaching the threshold of those very limits right now.

Nationalism can be reformed like anything else and doesn't have to be so discriminating.  I believe all people have a right to autonomy and self determination.

Malcolm wrote:
People have been predicting the collapse of capitalism since Marx. They have all been wrong.

We are definitely reaching environmental sustainability limits, but that has nothing to with capitalism (apart from the fact that capitalism is destroying the planet and the only way to prevent that is a global government that sets strict environmental limitations).

Nationalism is a disease. It has no place in the modern world. Eventually, people will see this. It might take them a couple of centuries. Hopefully we will not blow up the planet before then.

People have a right to autonomy and self-determination. This does not mean that Nationalism is the way to go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:


Joka said:
Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over.

Malcolm wrote:
You are kidding yourself.


Joka said:
I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Eastern and Western 'Mindfulness'?
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/jobs/achieving-mindfulness-at-work-no-meditation-cushion-required.html

From the article:
There are two approaches to mindfulness: Eastern and Western. The Eastern view indeed positions meditation as an essential tool to achieving a mindful state. But the Eastern view is more about quieting the mind and suspending thought. This philosophy is almost the complete opposite of the Western view of mindfulness, which centers on active thinking.
Curious what Dharma Wheelers think of this and the author's argument more generally.

Malcolm wrote:
Flawed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?
Content:


Joka said:
I find conversations like this interesting and so my post here is going to be one from neutrality in that I'm neither for or against the propositions being discussed in this thread.  So let me get this straight then, all forms of European ethnic identity are horrible border lining on taboo or blasphemous but the ethnic identity of everybody else, is alright then?  I'm very confused here.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "white" ethnicity, except in the US and the former British Empire, where it used to mean Anglo-Saxon Protestants (Poles, Germans, the Irish, Scots, Italians, Spaniards, were all excluded). Now in the US, since Germans, the Irish, Scots, Italians and so on have achieved a measure of social and economic success, they are now counted as "white."

Joka said:
I'm confused, are you saying that there is no European collective ethnicity or identity?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. There is no collective European ethnicity or identity.

Joka said:
No German, French, Italian, English, or even Hungarian ethnicity as example?

Malcolm wrote:
There are indeed national identities within Europe, but there is no collective European ethnic identity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:
Joka said:
The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.


Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.

Joka said:
To conquer it in oneself is a great thing but still there is a wide world of other people out there that do not share those convictions or ideals.

What is a Buddhist to do say in the presence of a group of people that above all else desire power and will do anything to keep that power including all spectrums of human unspeakable acts or behaviors? Does the Buddhist sit on their hands and feet sitting idle?

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends. In most cases, I think Buddhists will flee such a situation or resist nonviolently— for example, Tibet


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Joka said:
Democrats and Republicans, both owned by Wallstreet along with its subsidiaries. (Backed by military industrial complex and globalists bent on world domination.)  I think that pretty much covers American politics.

Malcolm wrote:
"globalist" — use of this term paints you as part of the rightwing fringe. I suppose next you are going to start griping about the "administrative" state.

Joka said:
I use the term globalist for describing those that seek power internationally and on a global scale beyond simple state national boundaries. A global government is every tyrant's wet dream.

I know the term or word is used in conservative circles but I hold no political affiliations myself. I am not loyal to any particular political party.

Administrative state? Please explain.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact we desperately need a global government because we have a global economy. It does not obey the outmoded borders drawn up by the colonial powers in the early part of the 20th century. It is also still the case that stronger nations can easily exploit weaker nations. We will probably struggle with this for another couple of centuries, but eventually we will have a global government. One hopes it is democratic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Joka said:
we live in a post socialist or capitalist world.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we live in a Capitalist World. Capitalism has won. However, there are people of nationalist sentiment that are unhappy that it did not also involve the continued economic ascendency of the Europe and the US. Now we have competition, and the nationalists among us don't like it very much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Joka said:
Democrats and Republicans, both owned by Wallstreet along with its subsidiaries. (Backed by military industrial complex and globalists bent on world domination.)  I think that pretty much covers American politics.

Malcolm wrote:
"globalist" — use of this term paints you as part of the rightwing fringe. I suppose next you are going to start griping about the "administrative" state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:
Joka said:
The old adage that malice thrives when people do nothing at all or sit idly by I suppose is a big problem for me concerning pacifism and the non-aggression principle. I suppose that is why I created this thread.

More importantly I don't think pacifism or nonaggression is always up to the task of challenging and defeating human malice in the world.


Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha's approach to defeating malice was to uproot it from yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: what is whiteness? what is it to be "white" in the USA?
Content:


Sentient Light said:
But you're correct that white consciousness must also mean conscious of the privilege that it affords, because if there is no honesty about that, then how can we (the confederation of "Other" cultures) possibly interact and engage with white American culture? There's room for all of us here if we could just talk to each other and be honest with one another and, somehow, drop away the fear we have that the other's viewpoint is a threat to our own existence.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with the normalization of a "white ethnic consciousness" is that it is not a true consciousness, it is a false consciousness, a dangerous one.

Joka said:
I find conversations like this interesting and so my post here is going to be one from neutrality in that I'm neither for or against the propositions being discussed in this thread.  So let me get this straight then, all forms of European ethnic identity are horrible border lining on taboo or blasphemous but the ethnic identity of everybody else, is alright then?  I'm very confused here.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "white" ethnicity, except in the US and the former British Empire, where it used to mean Anglo-Saxon Protestants (Poles, Germans, the Irish, Scots, Italians, Spaniards, were all excluded). Now in the US, since Germans, the Irish, Scots, Italians and so on have achieved a measure of social and economic success, they are now counted as "white."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So, not actually ceased, then.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, samadhi of cessation does not mean cessation in fact.

IN response to your other question mind streams are permanent in so far as they never cease, impermanent insor far as they are constituted of moments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So Arhats are reborn when it finishes? That can't be right. Or then cease to exist, in which case the original question I asked isn't answered.


Malcolm wrote:
They are roused from samadhi, and are set upon the bodhisattva path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:
Joka said:
This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.

amanitamusc said:
This would depend if the person killing did so as a complete karma.

Malcolm wrote:
There is that, but the Buddha does not make this distinction. He assumes warriors like violence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Notion Of Justified War Or Violence.
Content:
Joka said:
This probably has been discussed ad nauseaum but I am wondering in all the many Buddhist traditions if there is ever the notion of justified war or conflict.
.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha says that kingdoms have a right to defend themselves against aggressors. He also points out that people who kill each other in combat all go to hell. So kings and soldiers may, for the welfare of their kingdoms defend them with arms, but the sacrifice is much greater than merely losing one's life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
zenman said:
Hallo

That is my question too.

I have received Norbu Rinpoche's DI a few times. As a member of DC am I eligible to order restrcited books other than those that require tantric empowerment or lung? The books that I am referring to are "Lojong, semdzin, rushen", Shine and Lhagtong" and "Dzogchen State ad Syllabe Phat".

Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2017 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:
florin said:
I never knew what to do with this information.


Malcolm wrote:
The phrase "pinch of salt" comes to mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
...my view accords with Buddha...

Malcolm wrote:
In your opinion, but not in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[Arhats] have no physical existence in samsara, per se, but they continue in a samadhi of cessation.

Wayfarer said:
That is hard to reconcile with the idea that everything is impermanent, isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think so. Why do you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 11:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:
Fa Dao said:
cool man..thanks for the info...is this book connected to what you were referring to: "The Nature of Mind: The Dzogchen Instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungne" and if so is it any good?


Malcolm wrote:
I think it is by Khenpo Palden Sherab. Anything by him is good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Don't pay for Dharma Books?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, taking a Vajrayāna book for which you do not have transmission is considered stealing the Dharma.

binocular said:
Does this include books one borrows from the library while not having received transmission for them?

If I borrow a ChNN book from the library, while I have no transmission, am I stealing the Dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the book. Some ChNN books are for everyone; some are for those with transmission. It is unlikely the latter will be in your library.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Astus said:
Have you perhaps encountered this small book: Maha Boowa: The Path to Arahantship?

Malcolm wrote:
This is exactly the kind of thing Mahāyan̄a sūtra are criticizing:
"Since when did the earth element ever die? When they decompose and disintegrate, what do they become? All parts of the body revert to their original properties. The earth and water elements revert to their original properties, as do the wind and fire elements. Nothing is annihilated. Those elements have simply come together to form a lump in which the citta then takes up residence...The citta itself is the real culprit, not the lump of physical elements. The body is not some hostile entity whose constant fluctuations threaten our well-being. It is a separate reality that changes naturally according to its own inherent conditions.

Astus said:
The four elements—earth, water, wind and fire—they don’t die.

Malcolm wrote:
The emptiness he talks about is not Mahāyāna emptiness, the absence of characteristics. The emptiness he talks about is a result of vairaga, dispassion.

This kind of statement is impossible in Mahāyāna:
Sankhãras arise and cease with distinct beginnings and endings, like flashes of lightning or fireflies blinking on and off.
Here is a very nice expression of the emptiness of the person:
Then, from that neutral, impassive state of the citta, the nucleus of existence—the core of the knower—suddenly separated and fell away. Having finally been reduced to anattã, brightness and dullness and everything else were suddenly torn asunder and destroyed once and for all.
But I have to say, there is nothing there which is not anticipated by Mahāyāna critiques of the limitations of the śrāvaka teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Astus said:
Since there is no evidence that śrāvakas negate characteristics through a vipaśyāna analysis that allows them to see through characteristics, there is also no evidence that they are free from clinging to characteristics.
The four noble truths are what is taught to be the definitive insight one needs to gain on the shravaka path. And there what one needs to recognise is how there is suffering, how suffering arises, how it ceases, and how one can bring it to cessation. In short, the goal is not to have or maintain any ideas of what characterises phenomena, but to let go of them, to end one's clinging. So, what I don't see the evidence of is how there can remain anything one keeps being hooked on anything.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that arhats suffer from obscurations, and that their wisdom is insufficient to perceive the real nature of phenomena, even though they have a partial realization through which they can claim to be liberated (and liberation in Buddhadharma simply means being free of the afflictions that cause rebirth in samsara).

Astus said:
One assumes that ancient Mahāyānis had ample contact and debate with those who were reputed to be śrāvaka arhats.
I'm not so sure. It rather seems to me that what they tend to refute are their own interpretations of abhidharma materials.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a certainty, considering that they rubbed shoulders.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is only the selflessness of persons, not phenomena, because there is no refutation of characteristics themselves. But, for example, in Mahāyāna, even the characteristics by which phenomena are apprehended are refuted. This is the main difference.

Astus said:
Yes, that is a clear difference. On the one side it's rise and fall, birth and death, while on the other it's unarisen and unceasing, unborn and undying.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what I have been saying all along.


Astus said:
The absence of a self in persons is only mentioned in these Mahāyāna sūtras
Did you do a search specifically for pudgala naitratmya? That (人無我) doesn't seem to be a common term in Chinese either, although using synonyms can turn up further results.

Malcolm wrote:
I specifically searched for all instances of dharmanaitratmya and pudgalanaitratmya in their various forms.



Astus said:
śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas have trained in characteristics of the aggregate, etc., that lack a self because of being impermanent and so on, rather than in emptiness.
Contemplation of the three characteristics are what is said to bring about the realisation of the three gates of liberation, so there is a correlation.


Malcolm wrote:
There is a correlation in terms of liberation, but not in terms of omniscience. This is the principle distinction that the PP sūtras make.


Astus said:
It is asserted that they cling to characteristics, not that they cling to the aggregates, etc., per se.
An this is something I have difficulty to take literally on a practical level. Sure, most of the usual criticisms of arhats look valid for people obsessed with total cessation and/or systems and lists of dharmas. But I fail to see them as anything but common warnings one can find in all sorts of teachings, and that is likely the reason why Mahayana traditions kept this view of the arhat alive (at the same time, arhats in East Asia are also popular spirit/deity/bodhisattva-like beings).


Malcolm wrote:
Don't confuse the cult of the 16 arhats, who are all bodhisattva emanations, with the śrāvaka arhat that is the object of Mahāyāna criticism.


Astus said:
Although looking at the http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html can give the impression that the criticism is valid, it's also possible to say that as both body and mind are let go of, there can be no hindrances left, nor even clinging to characteristics, since even those are just thoughts.

Malcolm wrote:
Personally, I think you are reading with a Mahāyāna bias, and interpolating your own view on the view of śrāvakas. Since there is no evidence that śrāvakas negate characteristics through a vipaśyāna analysis that allows them to see through characteristics, there is also no evidence that they are free from clinging to characteristics. One assumes that ancient Mahāyānis had ample contact and debate with those who were reputed to be śrāvaka arhats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:


Fa Dao said:
Look bro, wasnt trying to be confrontational...this is just what I read in NN's books...just wanted some clarification

Malcolm wrote:
I understand. The historical narrative of the arrival of Dzogchen teaching in Tibet was radically altered by the revelation of the Vima Nyinthig in 1118, so much so that it literally eclipsed earlier narratives. There are no traditional Tibetan teachers that question this narrative, even though it definitely is the case that prior to the VN, the lingo of the three series was never used by anyone. For example, the earliest comprehensive history of Dharma composed by Nyangral in the late 12th does not mention these terms at all.

He refers to five main systems of Dzogchen. The first one is the the one we understand as klong sde, which he simply summarizes as the lineage given to Yudra Nyingpo connected with the five tantras typically now associated with klong sde. But he does not mention Mipham Gonpo, nor 'Dzeng. It appears that he does not know about the Vajra Bridge at all.

He mentions the lineage of Aro Yeshe Jungney. He mentions the cycle of the Kun byed rgyal po. He mentions the Brahmin cyle. He also mentions the unsurpassed Dzogchen cycle of the 17 tantras. He never mentions anything about the three series anywhere. He was a generation younger than Zhangton Tashi Dorje, the  terton of the VN, so this definitely shows that in the late twelfth century, the idea of the three series was restricted to the circle around Zhangton. Thus, it is really only in post- 12th century texts outside of the VN where we begin to see the systemization of the three series applied to Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:


Astus said:
The part where it is true is that the path described that way is what is found in the abhidharma works, although there can be differences. The part where it is not true is the Nikayas/Agamas and those Theravada teachers who don't follow the abhidhamma. Look at this description for instance: http://measurelessmind.ca/anattasanna.html.

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing here goes beyond the selflessness of persons. For example, here the Buddha is not describing the selflessness of phenomena:
Thus he abides contemplating selflessness with regard to the six internal and external sensory spheres. This, Ānanda, is called the recognition of selflessness.
This is only the selflessness of persons, not phenomena, because there is no refutation of characteristics themselves. But, for example, in Mahāyāna, even the characteristics by which phenomena are apprehended are refuted. This is the main difference.



Astus said:
Also, it is quite common in Mahayana to describe arhats by their realisation of the emptiness of self, and sometimes even by the realisation of the emptiness of phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
The absence of a self in persons is only mentioned in these Mahāyāna sūtras:

śatasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā, 1 mention
ārya-daśasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1 mention
ārya-saṃdhinirmocana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 3 mentions
ārya-laṅkāvatāra-mahāyāna-sūtra, 26 mentions
ārya-ghanavyūha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-mahāyāna-prasāda-prabhāvana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1 mention
ārya-ratnamegha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 3 mentions.
Rājadeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1 mention

Absence of a self in phenomena is mentioned in these sūtras:

śatasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā, 9
Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā, 2
ārya-aṣṭādaśasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-prajñāpāramitā-nāma-aṣṭaśataka, 2
Giri-ānanda-sūtra, 1
ārya-niṣṭhāgata-bhagavaj-jñāna-vaipulya-sūtra-ratnānanta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-sarvabuddha-viṣayāvatāra-jñānālokālaṃkāra-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-saṃdhinirmocana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 13
ārya-laṅkāvatāra-mahāyāna-sūtra, 47
ārya-sarvapuṇya-samuccaya-samādhi-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra,1
ārya-sāgara-nāgarāja-paripṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra,1
ārya-anavatapta-nāgarāja-paripṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra,1
ārya-ghanavyūha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 4
ārya-karuṇāpuṇḍarīka-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-mahāyāna-prasāda-prabhāvana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-sāgaramati-paripṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-akṣayamati-nirdeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
Rājadeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-ratnamegha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 3
ārya-samyag-cāravṛtta-gaganavarṇa-vinaya-kṣānti-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1
ārya-dīpaṃkara-vyākaraṇa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, 1


What we can see from the above is that the main sūtra that deals with this issue is the Lanka, the main polemical sūtra in this respect.

In general, what is discussed in the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras is the limitations upon the omniscience of arhats and pratyekabuddhas, and this is why in that body of sūtras there is an extensive discussion of how emptiness is understood with respect to arhats and pratyekabuddhas where it is primarily stated that one should avoid their result because śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas have trained in characteristics of the aggregate, etc., that lack a self because of being impermanent and so on, rather than in emptiness.

For example, the Lanka responds to your question, "to what do arhats grasp?"
Further, if it is asked what is the śravakas to the nature of conceiving entities, it is like this, having perceived...the elements that arise without a creator, intrinsic and general characteristics, reasongings, scripture, and authority, they cling to the nature of those.
Note, I am not addressing the issue of how Mahāyāna commentators deal with the absence of the two selves. That is a whole different question.


Astus said:
The issue is whether they are attached to the aggregates or not. In order to keep any form of traces, obscurations, or defilements for arhats, they necessarily have to still cling to the aggregates and the areas,

Malcolm wrote:
It is asserted that they cling to characteristics, not that they cling to the aggregates, etc., per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2017 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Wayfarer said:
After their nirvana, arhats have no location per se, being like "logs floating on the ocean, moved by the waves."
Are they not utterly non-existent, then? That would seem to follow from the whole trajectory of 'cessation'.

Malcolm wrote:
No, arhats do not just poof out. They have no physical existence in samsara, per se, but they continue in a samadhi of cessation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:


Fa Dao said:
good to know...please elaborate...


Malcolm wrote:
Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde. You also have to keep in mind that so called sems sde and klong sde lineages do not self-identify as such since the idea of sems, klong, and man ngag sde come from the Vima Nyingthig and do not appear prior to its revelation in 1118.

Fa Dao said:
ok..but what about Vairocana who is said to have received and transmitted the semde and longde that he received from Shri Singha? Wasnt that before 1118?  Also what about Dzin Dharmabodhi who is said to have lived at the time of Machig Labdron (1031-1139) and integrated into the longde tantric methods of transformation?

Malcolm wrote:
The terms sems sde and klong sde come from the Vima Nyinthig. You will never find these terms used prior to that time. The original name of the klong sde tradition was  the Vajra Bridge ( rdo rje zam pa ), based on the short instruction given to Mipham Gonpo. This is the tradition that comes from Dzeng Dharmabodhi. There is another set of writings that divide the path into nine spaces. This is another Varja Bridge commentarial tradition through Se Bandhe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 11:57 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Like most German Jews, Marx was completely bourgeois right down to insisting that he always had a house servant and educating his girls in French and piano lessons.

Grigoris said:
I don't think you could call Marx a Jew, though he was from a Jewish family, unless you are one of those types that consider Jews a race.  It seems that he did have a wealthy background, even though he lived in squalor (albeit with a housekeeper).  I guess housekeepers were cheap back in the good ol' days.

Malcolm wrote:
Jews are an ethnic group, not a race. There is only one human race. Within it are many ethnic and regional identities. The point about Marx is that he was very much a person of his time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 11:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...

Malcolm wrote:
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.

Fa Dao said:
good to know...please elaborate...


Malcolm wrote:
Ask ratna to post his master's thesis. Of anyone here, he knows the most about klong sde. You also have to keep in mind that so called sems sde and klong sde lineages do not self-identify as such since the idea of sems, klong, and man ngag sde come from the Vima Nyingthig and do not appear prior to its revelation in 1118.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: Lifetime of Śakra
Content:
KarmaOcean said:
I was reading about Śakra, Lord of the Gods, and that the lifetime of Śakra is limited.

Do we have any indication of how long this period is ?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, The devas in the heaven of thirty-three, of which Indra is the ruler, live for 36,000,000 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 7:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...

Malcolm wrote:
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma in general, there are only three unconditioned phenomena: space (as absence of obstruction), analytical cessation (nirvana), and nonanalytical cessation (simple absence of a cause).

Tsongkhapafan said:
Are you saying that emptiness is conditioned?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am saying that in general Buddhadharma there are only three unconditioned dharmas. Emptiness is not a separate dharma, like space or the two cessations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Marx did not do math. He was not an economist. He was a petite bourgeoisie historian/journalist.

Grigoris said:
Marx was petite bourgeois???  He relied on Engels (who was a factory owner) for money.  I wouldn't call him a historian though.  More a political philosopher.  His analysis of capitalism had a mathematical element to it as well, it was a pretty accurate prediction of the accumulative nature of capitalism though, even if it was not mathematically based.

Maybe he was off on the prediction of where this accumulation would lead regarding the politicization of the proletariat.  I don't think he was aware of exactly how competitive people WITHIN a class can be, when it comes to acquiring resources for their survival.

Malcolm wrote:
Like most German Jews, Marx was completely bourgeois right down to insisting that he always had a house servant and educating his girls in French and piano lessons. He generally spent most of his life running through one inheritance after another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Piketty proved it. Marx merely suggested it.

Grigoris said:
I think you'll find that capitalism proved it, not Piketty.  Marx did a little more than suggest it, unless you consider three volumes of economic analysis a "suggestion".

Have you even read Capital bro?

Malcolm wrote:
Many years ago. My favorite part is his sarcastic analysis of British Imperialism at the end.

Marx did not do math. He was not an economist. He was a petite bourgeoisie historian/journalist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics
Content:
Kenneth Chan said:
The observer is empty of inherent existence because his very existence is dependent upon causes and conditions.

Wayfarer said:
This point is tangential to the argument about physics, but I'm not sure about this.  You see, 'dependent on causes and conditions' applies to 'all compounded phenomena'. But there is 'that which is unmade, uncreated', which is not dependent on causes on conditions. We have to be careful not to reify the unconditioned by treating it as an object. But, is the Tathāgata dependent on causes and conditions? I know that's a difficult question but it should be considered.


Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma in general, there are only three unconditioned phenomena: space (as absence of obstruction), analytical cessation (nirvana), and nonanalytical cessation (simple absence of a cause).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Anarchism
Content:
Vasana said:
Economists like Thomas Piketty have shown that the accelerated accumulation of capital by a few is built into the system.

Grigoris said:
I think Marx may have come up with idea... not Piketty.

Malcolm wrote:
Piketty proved it. Marx merely suggested it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2017 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
He just quoted three sutras answering precisely that. What else is he supposed to do?

Astus said:
The three quotes merely state that

"Srāvakas and pratyekabuddhas have not abandoned all connection with traces"
"not completely destroyed traces"
"they are confused through the other traces of affliction"

and the questions raised are in response to that concept of remaining traces.

PuerAzaelis said:
He just quoted three sutras answering precisely that. What else is he supposed to do?

Astus said:
The three quotes merely state that

"Srāvakas and pratyekabuddhas have not abandoned all connection with traces"
"not completely destroyed traces"
"they are confused through the other traces of affliction"

and the questions raised are in response to that concept of remaining traces.


Malcolm wrote:
The location of traces is in the mind stream of course. Daṃṣṭrasenam, in his commentary on the 100,000 lines Perfection of Wisdom Sūtra, notes that the result of possessing those traces mentions specifically that arhats can err, gossip, can be unattractive, are forgetful, and so on.

But the above only refers to past traces, the absence of which is how the eighteen unshared qualities of a buddha are defined. But that is not really the most important point. Below we will see too that it is claimed that arhats also do not abandon the traces of conceptuality.

The most important point is that śrāvakayanists in general do not meditate on the view of emptiness. As we will see below, they meditate in the four truths and this is how they attain their awakening. They realize the person as a momentary formation and this is what it means to say that an arhat realizes "the selflessness of persons." But they do not meditate directly on the view of emptiness in anyway. The  Goenka Vipassana school is an excellent example of this principle.

Bhavaviveka II mentions in the Tarkajvala that the difference between nirvana of a buddha and an arhat is the the latter's nirvana is result of totally abandoning the two obscurations, while the latter's nirvana is merely severing the continuum of their physical body in samsara. He remarks too that the traces of affliction from cultivating afflictions from beginningless time exist within arhats. He distinguishes buddhas by pointing out that they totally eliminate all afflictions along with their traces by cultivating the view of emptiness for a long while, and they eliminate the knowledge obscuration the same way. This is not how arhats attain their realization since their realization is attained not by meditating on emptiness, but rather by meditating the four noble truths in sixteen moments on the path of seeing.

Vibhuticandra says much the same thing in his commentary on the Bodhicaryāvatāra:
With respect to the traces of emptiness, since ṡrāvakas and so on cannot bear the fact that all phenomena are empty, it is said they are liberated solely through seeing four truths of nobles. Since they obtain freedom only through the direct perception of the "truths" — suffering, the origin, the cessation, and the path— of what use to them is seeing emptiness?
Jayananda's commentary on the Madhyamakāvatāra states:
Therefore, śrāvakas and pratyekabuddha do not abandon the affliction of the traces of conceptuality, but because bodhisattvas, beginning on the eighth bhumi, are able to exhaust the affliction of the traces of of conceptuality through the power of the path of effortlessness and characteristiclessness, they are able to attain buddhahood.
Thus, it is somewhat inane to speculate about where traces reside in an arhat. It is also somewhat foolish to assert that arhats realize the selflessness of phenomena when it has nothing at all to do with how they achieve their realization since they never even meditate the view of the emptiness of the person let alone emptiness in general.

Finally, concerning the Lanka and its samadhi-intoxicated arhats, Jñānavajra states:
With respect to that, the three liberations are the three awakenings which are equivalent in abandoning afflictions. 

"The absence of self in phenomena," and so on means that the ultimate suchness and the pristine consciousness which realizes that is liberated from afflictions and abandons the obscuration of knowledge — this is Mahāyāna of the result. 

It is taught that śrāvakas cannot realize that. "Just as..." and "They are distracted by characteristics" means they are distracted because they conceptualize particular and universal characterisics of the aggregates and so on, and thus cannot abandon the knowledge obscuration. In the same way, though they indeed abandon the active causes of the afflictive obscuration, they cannot abandon the latent ones. Through perceiving sensation and perception as flaws, they solely rely on the method of pacifying them and are intoxicated with an intoxicating samadhi that lacks the wisdom that realizes the truth. Since they abandon the manifest causes of affliction, they reside in the uncontaminated dhātu. If is asked whether that is their ultimate result, they do no reach an ultimate result apart from that. That being the case, if it is wondered whether or not they are outside of and turned away from samsara, through realizing the emptiness of the person as being a momentary formation and understanding a self is an agent of action, there is no further accumulated karma for birth in samsara and the causal condition for the active cause of craving and addiction are absent, just as a log floating on the ocean does sink to the bottom, there is no certainty of their remaining in one place. If it is wondered how long they remain in the the uncontaminated dhātu, it is said "Samadhi, etc..." 

"Then I will cause them to obtain the dharmakāya..." means that as explained already, when through their own roots of virtue and the blessings of the tathāgata they awaken from uncontaminated dhātu and generate the mind for supreme awakening. Having filled their compliment of the two accumulations, they will obtain the dharmakāya."
Thus we can also see there is no place where such arhats "reside" after death, no Hinayāna pure land. After their nirvana, arhats have no location per se, being like "logs floating on the ocean, moved by the waves."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 12th, 2017 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
White Lotus said:
Oneness. Buddha and arhat are not the same not different and yet they both see mind, as does any child or dog, but they know what they see. One vehicle/eckayana. Everything is enlightened. Mind, emptiness. Oneness.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, guess you better start writing your own sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 12th, 2017 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Temicco said:
I have a few questions after reading Guruyoga in preparation for today's webcast. (Realized I should have done this sooner so I could spend some more time memorizing the recitations and could have caught the explanatory conference call, but oh well...)

What is a "Tun"? We're apparently supposed to know how to do them. It seems like the "Tun Book" contains a decent amount of material used in the transmission. Is it something one should buy for that sake?

Malcolm wrote:
Thun means "session" or period of time.



Temicco said:
How exactly should we visualize the thigle and white A? Like we're looking at our bodies externally and the thigle is just kind of projected on us? And eyes open or closed?

Malcolm wrote:
The A is visualized facing outward.



Temicco said:
The visualizations in general have a lot going on. Is there a precise way we're technically supposed to do them, or is it fine to just kind of try your best to do what seems right?


Malcolm wrote:
You just think about it briefly and then let it go.



Temicco said:
The introduction and p.37/38 present guruyoga ultimately as being in the state of rigpa as reflected in the teacher, but then on page 32, 36, and 44 guruyoga is presented as the key for discovering our real nature, and consisting of thigle visualization during transmission. Page 43 seemingly discusses it in both ways at once. So are there 2 main guruyogas in dzogchen, the one of being in rigpa and the one done during transmission or at other times in order to unlock rigpa?


Malcolm wrote:
Ati Guru Yoga is both a method of introduction and a means for discovering what was introduced if you did not succeed.

Temicco said:
The introduction makes it sound like the fourth chapter is about conduct and integrating guruyoga, so does that mean that all of the instructions contained therein are only for people who have had an experience of rigpa already? (I don't understand what "integration" could be being talked about otherwise, nor how one could know how to be in instant presence otherwise.)

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is for anyone who is interested to know what conduct is from a Dzogchen perspective, so one can gradually integrate it into one's life.


Temicco said:
The worldwide transmission just consists of ChNN giving oral, symbolic, and then direct transmission, right?


Malcolm wrote:
It is an Anuyoga practice which involves direct introduction.



Temicco said:
Does the melody and so on matter? I only have the Guruyoga book and it is too late this time to catch the explanatory conference call for the other details. Lacking them, I can still pay attention and do the visualizations and so on, but will transmission still occur if I'm not well prepared for the singing and recitations? (Also, I assume the visualizations and mental stuff going on at each recitation are the most important thing, so is it better not to recite if it would be distracting?)


Malcolm wrote:
Just follow along with ChNN. (I wish I had a bouncing ball gif).




Temicco said:
After being present for the transmission, what next? I'm very confused about empowerments and so on and what I am allowed to / should practise at each step (particularly given that I would practice alone, seemingly). On page 60 he says that "the root of all transmissions is Guruyoga; the same applies in the case of Rushens and Semdzins". So, are those something that should be practiced after following the instructions for the transmission?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. You can immediately begin to apply semzins and rushans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 12th, 2017 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:


4526547 said:
This is only the "Hinayana" sutras' perspective, naturally, and Mahayana perspective may or may not differ.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. What is being explored here, Tilt, is the Mahāyāna perspective on what it means to be an arhat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 12th, 2017 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
now you think that arhats are tathāgatas.

Astus said:
The problem I'm raising here is that ascribing attachment to arhats is not supported by reason. So far there has been no substantiated argument against that. It is another issue if buddhahood is defined on the basis of the complete absence of attachment.

Malcolm wrote:
Attachment is not the issue, traces are. For example, the Prajñāpāramitā states:
Subhuti, while there is no difference in the abandonment of affliction, the Tathāgata has abandoned all connection with traces. Srāvakas and pratyekabuddhas have not abandoned all connection with traces...there are aspects of bodily and verbal desire, hatred and ignorance in śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas. However, the traces of those are not harmful in the same way they are for common immature people.
Or་ the Ārya-bodhisattva-piṭaka-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra states:
The uncontaminated pristine consciousness (jñāna) of the śrāvakas 
has not completely destroyed traces.
The Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-mahāyāna-sūtra states:
Just as a log floating on the ocean
is always moved by waves,
likewise confused śrāvakas
are moved by the "wind" of characteristics. 
Though prevented from being activated,
they are confused through the other traces of affliction,
and intoxicated by the bliss of samadhi,
they abide in the uncontaminated dhātu (nirvana).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Brunelleschi said:
So this is Guru Yoga, fram an Ati-Yoga perspective, which in itself contains the Direct Introduction?

ratna said:
Yes. When done at the same time as the teacher, it includes the DI.

Malcolm wrote:
And also afterwards, when one does it oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:


oldbob said:
That said, there appears to be a difference between doing translations as a Dharma activity with the motivation to make appropriate teachings as available as possible, and on the other hand, doing translations with the motivation of only selling the translations to those who can afford them.


Malcolm wrote:
If people want to wait 75 years for the copyright to expire, well....then they can upload Buddhahood as much as they like. In the meantime, it is in the interest of the continued production of good translations from Wisdom, Snow Lion/Shambhala, etc., that one should pay for the Dharma books that one wishes to own.

There is an additional benefit to the production of translations by professional Buddhist publishers — these books enter the Library of Congress. One cannot hope to see most independently published books there. They have strict rules about what books they accept and how to submit them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
The mind is not emptiness because emptiness cannot cognize. Mind is the nature of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
We have understood for a long time you are an advocate of an inert emptiness. But that is not the profound view of mantrayāna.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Emptiness is inert. Is emptiness permanent or impermanent?

It is permanent therefore it cannot function - and it certainly cannot cognize because it is not mind.


Malcolm wrote:
Thus your view is no different than that of nonbuddhist annihilationists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Freedom from attachments does not equal freedom from proliferation.

Astus said:
When no concepts grasped, how can there be proliferation?

"There's no trail in space,
no outside contemplative. 
People are smitten with objectifications (papanca), 
but devoid of objectification (nippapanca) are the Tathagatas."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.18.than.html.254)
If it did, arhats would be omniscient. They also could not fall back from the state of arhatship, but some do.
Those are clearly problematic points, but secondary.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you have become a follower of Tilt Billings, and now you think that arhats are tathāgatas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
... until the mind mixes with emptiness directly and the path of seeing is attained.

Grigoris said:
But the mind is emptiness anyway, so...

Tsongkhapafan said:
The mind is not emptiness because emptiness cannot cognize. Mind is the nature of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
We have understood for a long time you are an advocate of an inert emptiness. But that is not the profound view of mantrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Unproduced space can be apprehended just as lack of inherent existence can be apprehended. Your continued insistence that non-affirming negatives cannot be apprehended contradicts both Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and my own meditative experience, therefore I reject it.

Malcolm wrote:
You are meditating on concepts about emptiness.

Āryan equipoise is the state that arises when one has eliminated all proliferation about phenomena. That freedom from proliferation is emptiness. But it cannot be taken as a conceptual object since conceptual objects are proliferation. The way to discover freedom from proliferation is exactly as Śāntideva describes it, and I paraphrase, when neither an entity nor a nonentity rests before the mind, at that moment since there is no other alternative, the mind is pacified. That is āryan equipoise.

Tsongkhapafan said:
They are not concepts about emptiness. It's true that the non-affirming negative, lack of inherent existence is initially known through the medium of a generic image appearing to a conceptual mind, but through this image we can know emptiness itself. Eventually, through continuous familiarity in meditation, the generic image of emptiness becomes fainter and fainter until the mind mixes with emptiness directly and the path of seeing is attained.

According to Tsongkhapa's teachings there is no other way to gain a direct realisation of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
The lack of obstructive contact is not.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of space. Area and dimension is conditioned space. That is the kind of space in which you can wave your arms. Unconditioned space is also unimpeded by solid objects. For example, you cannot wave your arms in a room fill with solid rock. The former, being conditioned, can be apprehended. The latter, being unconditioned, cannot be apprehended. The latter space is a metaphor for emptiness, the former is not.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Unproduced space can be apprehended just as lack of inherent existence can be apprehended. Your continued insistence that non-affirming negatives cannot be apprehended contradicts both Je Tsongkhapa's teachings and my own meditative experience, therefore I reject it.

Malcolm wrote:
You are meditating on concepts about emptiness.

Āryan equipoise is the state that arises when one has eliminated all proliferation about phenomena. That freedom from proliferation is emptiness. But it cannot be taken as a conceptual object since conceptual objects are proliferation. The way to discover freedom from proliferation is exactly as Śāntideva describes it, and I paraphrase, when neither an entity nor a nonentity rests before the mind, at that moment since there is no other alternative, the mind is pacified. That is āryan equipoise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 11th, 2017 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The question is not whether they are bound. The question is "what kind of realization is necessary for freedom from rebirth?" The answer is: "Not very deep."

Astus said:
How is that the question? What realisation is deeper/higher then what is free from all attachments, hence also free from conceptual proliferation?

Malcolm wrote:
Freedom from attachments does not equal freedom from proliferation. If it did, arhats would be omniscient. They also could not fall back from the state of arhatship, but some do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: How to not intellectualize my interest in buddhism?
Content:
Rakz said:
I have this same issue with the Dharma. Read too much of it but practice is always kept to a minimum.

binocular said:
Reading (and studying) can be a part of the practice, too.

For example, you can make a point of practicing the four brahmaviharas as you read, so that you responses to what you read are within the framework of the four brahmaviharas.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, wisdom has three components, hearing (studying), reflection, and cultivation. First we hear, then we reflect on what we have heard, then we cultivate what we have heard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Think a bit more simply - wave your arms in the air. Do you experience any obstructive contact? That's unproduced space.

Are you apprehending it now?

Malcolm wrote:
O, that is. Conditioned space.

Tsongkhapafan said:
The lack of obstructive contact is not.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of space. Area and dimension is conditioned space. That is the kind of space in which you can wave your arms. Unconditioned space is also unimpeded by solid objects. For example, you cannot wave your arms in a room fill with solid rock. The former, being conditioned, can be apprehended. The latter, being unconditioned, cannot be apprehended. The latter space is a metaphor for emptiness, the former is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Don't pay for Dharma Books?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Stealing a book maybe, but the Dharma cannot be filched.

Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, taking a Vajrayāna book for which you do not have transmission is considered stealing the Dharma.

Rakz said:
What if you have transmission and download it for free?

Malcolm wrote:
For me personally, it affects nothing. The amount of money I will make from this book is truly paltry. It would be much more lucrative for me to self-publish. However, the practice of pirating books undermines the Buddhist book industry.

Anonymous X said:
What if you bought the book, scanned it, and wanted to share it with others because you felt it was beneficial? What if you just bought the book and shared it with your immediate friends? This would not be considered stealing anything. All this gets into very sketchy territory. Sometimes people go too far in their views and attachments to all of this. Let the lawyers figure it out.

Malcolm wrote:
Loaning a book is one thing. Copying a few pages is one thing. Uploading an entire book with the intent to make it freely available to all and sundry is quite another. As I pointed out to Rakz, it undermines Buddhist book publishers. We need them. They keep editorial and production standards high because they are professionals and they know what they are doing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 10:50 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
a fear. And after all these scoldings, he still followed the guru, not blindly but wholeheartedly...

Malcolm wrote:
with his blindfold well and firmly tied.

binocular said:
Where did he go wrong?

Malcolm wrote:
He continued to think the guru was his state rather than recognizing his own state based on the guru's instructions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 7:49 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
Emptiness (lack of inherent existence) or unproduced space (lack of obstructive contact).

Bakmoon said:
It is begging the question to use the example of emptiness because that's the very thing under dispute. That would constitute circular reasoning.

And I don't think actual unproduced space is apprehended either. If I were to look off into empty space I wouldn't see space, I would see blackness, and unproduced space doesn't have color of any kind. If it did have a color then everything would be obscured by that color because everywhere is pervaded by unproduced space.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Think a bit more simply - wave your arms in the air. Do you experience any obstructive contact? That's unproduced space.

Are you apprehending it now?

Malcolm wrote:
O, that is. Conditioned space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
a fear. And after all these scoldings, he still followed the guru, not blindly but wholeheartedly...

Malcolm wrote:
with his blindfold well and firmly tied.

dzogchungpa said:
Yes, it's too bad he didn't have a friend like you to remove it for him.

Malcolm wrote:
Not my job.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2017 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
a fear. And after all these scoldings, he still followed the guru, not blindly but wholeheartedly...

Malcolm wrote:
with his blindfold well and firmly tied.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Don't pay for Dharma Books?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Stealing a book maybe, but the Dharma cannot be filched.

Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, taking a Vajrayāna book for which you do not have transmission is considered stealing the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: How to not intellectualize my interest in buddhism?
Content:
ClearMountainWay said:
I'm an extremely analytical person. My studies were in Philosophy. I hyper-analyze, philosophize and ponder every aspect of life and anything that I've ever been interested in. I literally spend any bit of my free time immersed in books and papers and articles, for no reason other than a strong insatiable desire to understand and understand and to see and understand further and question and further question ad nauseum.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a problem. Go with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
oldbob said:
This book will eventually be of great help to many.  I look forward to the pdf being on the web in 20 years.
Good job Malcolm!:namaste:

Anonymous X said:
It's already on the web!

Malcolm wrote:
This just means that people are stealing the Dharma. Pity. But their karma is their own. Hopefully the benefit of contacting the Dharma will outweigh their stinginess.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
zenman said:
I didn't get from whom Malcolm got this lung. Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok, Taklung Tsetrul or someone else? A nice lecture.

Malcolm wrote:
HH Taklung Tsetrul Dorjechang


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Must you regard a refuge lama as your guru?
Content:
Boomerang said:
When I took refuge I did it with the understanding that you should respect that teacher as the person who introduced you to the three gems, but you don't have to view them as a Buddha. Today I read a book (The Heart of the Path: Seeing the Guru as a Buddha) that says your refuge lama should be viewed as a guru-Buddha even if you had no intention of forming that relationship.

Which is correct? Is it only a matter of opinion?


Malcolm wrote:
There is a difference between the Mahāyāna idea of regarding your teacher to being like a Buddha, as opposed to the Vajrayāna ideal that you should regard your guru as an actual Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Non-thing is not a concept, it's an existent. Is a blue sky a concept? No, it's an existent, an appearance to mind that is apprehended by mind. Emptiness is not a concept either, it's an existent object to be perceived directly like a blue sky.

Malcolm wrote:
So emptiness is an existent nonthing?

Tsongkhapafan said:
Yes, of course! All non-things are existent. Even nothing is an existent.

Malcolm wrote:
So the past and future are existent?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Of course emptiness is an object - anything that can appear to mind and be understood is an object. It's not a thing but it's a non-thing.

You seem to be saying that emptiness and nothingness are the same - they aren't.

conebeckham said:
Things that appear to mind include "external phenomena," and internal phenomena--thoughts, feelings, concepts, etc.
Emptiness as a "non-thing" is a concept.  Is it your assertion, therefore, that the limit of meditation on emptiness is meditation on a concept?  An idea?

Tsongkhapafan said:
Non-thing is not a concept, it's an existent. Is a blue sky a concept? No, it's an existent, an appearance to mind that is apprehended by mind. Emptiness is not a concept either, it's an existent object to be perceived directly like a blue sky.

Malcolm wrote:
So emptiness is an existent nonthing?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
binocular said:
I don't want to be a part of. I don't want to be that calf.

Malcolm wrote:
The very first time I went to see ChNN, he informed us that the job of a Dzogchen Guru was to make their students independent, not dependent. Your mileage may vary with gurus in the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
Lhasa said:
Siddhis don't make a saint.

Garchen Rinpoche once said, "Find the Lama who loves you."

Karma Jinpa said:
Upon being asked if I could be his direct student, Rinpoche said to me:

"Whether you are my student or not is up to you.  I love all beings equally."

binocular said:
It seems that finding a teacher like that is very difficult!

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN.

Karma Jinpa said:
Kyabjé Garchen Rinpoche.


Malcolm wrote:
It is interesting when people post their own teacher's name in response to my posting "ChNN" rather than merely expressing their confidence in their own teacher. It assumes that I am comparing my teacher with others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
OK, why don't you look for some sources to back up your argument

Coëmgenu said:
I should have something prepared by the weekend, when I have more time to pursue leisure work on the Internet.
My apologies, post forthcoming. Malcolm is (quite obviously) more qualified than I to speak of something as "tantric" or not tantric, so if he says tantra was not practiced at a certain time, that should probably be believed even if it appears to contradict some archaeological findings, given the esoteric nature of tantric discourse, and, I assume, the commentarial tradition of addressing the tantric tradition itself that is no doubt present within that tradition. The archaeological findings I was referring to (and am slowly working on making that post on) are some seemingly Vajrayana-influenced or at least Mahayana statuary, art, and artefacts that date from after the destruction of the Abhayagirivihāra occasionally appearing in the material records of history. Indicating, to me, that there was at least some divergent "non-Theravāda" being practiced by a minority, that at the very least appropriated Mahāyāna iconography and visual language to suit its ends. But artefacts does not necessarily a living historical tradition make I will certainly admit.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna spread into SE Asia from India, along with Hinduism. The only survival of this is brahmin families with court duties to the Kings of Thailand. But Varjayāna was eradicated along with Mahāyāna.

Vajrayāna and Mahāyāna never spread to SE Asia from Śrī Lanka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 9th, 2017 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Tough times for religious studies
Content:


steveb1 said:
Christianity, like it or not, was the US's moral backbone and metaphysical bulwark since the nation's inception.

Malcolm wrote:
I completely disagree with this sentiment.

steveb1 said:
But secularism, humanism ...

Malcolm wrote:
Secularism and humanism spring directly out of the Enlightenment, the actual source for moral and philosophical underpinnings of the US. I am in complete favor of the continued secularization of our educational system. The Gvt. should not fund religious schools in anyway since it is a violation of the establishment clause.

steveb1 said:
One unfortunate effect of this is the attempt to be religious by embracing non-religious religion, such as "Death of God" Christianity and the new forms of secular forms of Buddhism which utterly reject the Transcendent and the Buddha Realms. This kind of substitute religion is, paradoxically, opposed to religion; opposed to any idea of Transcendence, whether of a divine Absolute or the reality of a non-material subjective human entity. Matter and its processes reign supreme. All else is illusion and delusion. A terribly corrosive thing for religion and spirituality.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Dzogchen point of view:
Since there is no object to attain, there is nothing other than the three realms.

steveb1 said:
These factors being in place, it is not surprising that religious education is on the wane. This is personally painful for me. Maybe there are things to be done that could revitalize religion in the public eye. But if not, the Buddhist teaching that all things are impermanent might need to be applied to this issue.

Malcolm wrote:
We do not need religion. We need direct perception.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Arhats have the view that aggregates exist. But they do not cling to them. That is your disconnect.

Astus said:
If one has a view but does not cling to that view, does one actually have a view? For instance, an arhat has the view that a particular robe is his, still, it is not a view that binds him. Similarly, all teachings are recognised as pointing to liberation, and not something that one should remain attached to.

Malcolm wrote:
The question is not whether they are bound. The question is "what kind of realization is necessary for freedom from rebirth?" The answer is: "Not very deep."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:
Bakmoon said:
Of course emptiness isn't apprehendable. If it were, then it wouldn't be a nonimplicitive negation because you'd be replacing one thing with another. Do you think that on the path of seeing one perceives some sort of object called emptiness? It is abundantly clear from a cursory reading of the Prajnaparamita Sutras that this is not the case. Rather than apprehending an object called emptiness, one doesn't apprehend anything at all, and this very non-apprehension is itself what is called realizing emptiness.

To turn emptiness into an object like this is in fact the exact error of Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen, the great Jonangpa teacher.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Of course emptiness is an object - anything that can appear to mind and be understood is an object. It's not a thing but it's a non-thing.

You seem to be saying that emptiness and nothingness are the same - they aren't.

conebeckham said:
Things that appear to mind include "external phenomena," and internal phenomena--thoughts, feelings, concepts, etc.
Emptiness as a "non-thing" is a concept.  Is it your assertion, therefore, that the limit of meditation on emptiness is meditation on a concept?  An idea?


Malcolm wrote:
Not only that, but emptiness is nowhere listed in the dharmāyatana, the domain of objects of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
binocular said:
It seems that finding a teacher like that is very difficult!

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: John Oliver interviews the Dalai Lama
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Trump farce is comedy I could do without.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but since we have no choice, I suggest you gain whatever cynical enjoyment you can from it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:


Astus said:
The four extreme views are concepts. Concepts are within the domain of the aggregates. Arhats do not cling to the aggregates, hence they cannot have the four extreme views. Where is the disconnect here?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats have the view that aggregates exist. But they do not cling to them. That is your disconnect.

Admin_PC said:
Would Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga be representative of the Arhat view/stance?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, considering that atoms in that text are considered illustrative of ultimate dharmas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You have not shown this to be so. In other words, there is a disconnect between your assertion that arhats are free from clinging to their aggregates and your assertion that they realize emptiness free from the four extremes.

Astus said:
The four extreme views are concepts. Concepts are within the domain of the aggregates. Arhats do not cling to the aggregates, hence they cannot have the four extreme views. Where is the disconnect here?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats have the view that aggregates exist. But they do not cling to them. That is your disconnect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is nevertheless incorrect, and therefore, it is not surprising in the least that Arhats have a incomplete understanding of emptiness, which is the point of this whole exchange.

Astus said:
If by emptiness you refer to a conceptual explanation, yes, there can be misunderstandings. But if you mean freedom from the four extreme views, then they are necessarily free from those.


Malcolm wrote:
You have not shown this to be so. In other words, there is a disconnect between your assertion that arhats are free from clinging to their aggregates and your assertion that they realize emptiness free from the four extremes.

The emptiness the arhats realize is the implicative emptiness described in the Cullasunatta sūtra; not the nonimplicative emptiness of the Perfection of Wisdom.

But you feel free to believe whatever warms your heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One may have no attachments, but this still does not preclude one from imputing substantiality to this or that dharma.

Astus said:
Even if one free from attachments would have an incorrect assumption about something, it would be an assumption not grasped at.


Malcolm wrote:
It is nevertheless incorrect, and therefore, it is not surprising in the least that Arhats have a incomplete understanding of emptiness, which is the point of this whole exchange.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2017 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Honestly, I think it can be quite difficult to find a suitable Vajrayana teacher, i.e. one that can really benefit you. I think it's actually quite rare.


Malcolm wrote:
That's why we have ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
Vasana said:
I have nothing to add on the matter of the Root Guru beyond what's already been shared but in regards to the topic of the 6 yogas of Naropa and practising Dzogchen as per ChNNR , I believe i remember hearing Rinpoche say on at least one occasion that if you want to study and apply the 6 Yogas individually then that's fine but that it should be noted that you're able to do many of the same practices just by virtue of having received Direct Introduction and any relevant auxillary instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

Vasana said:
The general basis for Tummo can be found within the framework of Yantra Yoga (with qualified instructors and adequate practice),  the Yoga of the clear light , Milam and Bardo are all present in ChNNR's transmission too. The yoga of the illusory body can be spoken of in more gross and subtle aspects and although isn't explicitly focused on in the D.C ( to my knowledge), the underlying subtle framework for it is all still there. I also don't know if Phowa is taught but if you concentrate on the available practices, you'll be practising on them for long enough to gain the experience and understanding of whether Phowa is something personally indispensable for you or not.

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually a Longsal text on illusory body. ChNN teaches phowa somewhat regularly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Understanding that there is no ghost in the machine is a not a refutation or negation of the machine's substantiality.

Astus said:
The machine is not the cause of the problems, it is the illusion of the ghost. Once there is no clinging, how could it matter what the status of something is? Even the concepts about the machine are let go of.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.
Becoming free from the clinging to the aggregates is possible merely through understanding they are impermanent. There is no need for a nondual understanding to attain arhatship, much less stream-entry.

Astus said:
Understanding impermanence is the path, abandonment of all attachments is the result. The point is that without attachment there is no basis for any view.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not necessarily follow. One may have no attachments, but this still does not preclude one from imputing substantiality to this or that dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: How to meditate on death?
Content:
binocular said:
I mean that I'm not sure I can do it right without the proper guidance and empowerments; harm could come, from me doing it wrongly.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no empowerment. This is sūtra.

amanitamusc said:
What about for Sutra Terma?

Malcolm wrote:
Same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
Penor said:
There are cases where a fully qualified master gives direct introduction to a student and the student is not aware he has received it. This happened to a friend of mine.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, he received it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
tiagolps said:
But to realize the emptiness of self you have to have some understanding of the emptiness of aggregates that make up the self, no?

Astus said:
The argument is that since in Hinayana the focus is on the method of recognising that there are only the aggregates but no self, they take the aggregates to be substantial. However, if we think about this a bit, this reasoning doesn't hold up, because shravakas need to realise that the aggregates are neither self nor the possessions of a self, so to say that they are regarded as substantial contradicts the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Non sequitur. Understanding that there is no ghost in the machine is a not a refutation or negation of the machine's substantiality.



Astus said:
Similarly, as in the Lankavatara Sutra, there is the argument that shravakas do not know that there is no grasping and no grasped, but that is again refutable once we consider that without attachment to the aggregates there is no basis any more for such a duality. Hence what is called the shravakayana in Mahayana scriptures refers practitioners who misunderstood things, and not what is actually found in the Hinayana works.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahaha, this is again a very poor argument. Becoming free from the clinging to the aggregates is possible merely through understanding they are impermanent. There is no need for a nondual understanding to attain arhatship, much less stream-entry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
DJKR said:
I’m sure many of the readers of this book have received more than fifty initiations already and probably didn’t even have a clue what was going on.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure this is not the fault of the readers, but rather the fault of the teachers, like Dzongsar Khyentse. It would be nice if he owned this fact.

dzogchungpa said:
Thank you for using 'DJKR'.


Have you by any chance attended one of his empowerments?

Malcolm wrote:
No. I am sure they are entertaining, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, a stream enterer is free from the fetter of attachment to wrong views. Such a person is not bound by the aggregates

Astus said:
A stream-enterer is still bound by the three poisons, hence attached to the aggregates. Having correct view is the beginning, not the end, and that's why there is a need for cultivation.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not all three poisons. And while there is need for the eradication of latent afflictions from strong/stong to weak/weak, there is no change in view at all. In other words, Arhats and stream entrants have identical views of selflessness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
DJKR said:
I’m sure many of the readers of this book have received more than fifty initiations already and probably didn’t even have a clue what was going on.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure this is not the fault of the readers, but rather the fault of the teachers, like Dzongsar Khyentse. It would be nice if he owned this fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your argument is internally incoherent. According your argument, a stream entrant should be Vajradhara.

Astus said:
How so? A stream-entrant has correct view, but still very much bound by the aggregates.

Malcolm wrote:
No, a stream enterer is free from the fetter of attachment to wrong views. Such a person is not bound by the aggregates, they are subject to the effects of latent afflictions that keep them in samsara for a further 7 births. But they have no wrong views concerning the absence of persons in the aggregates at all, despite whatever other misconceptions they may hold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since skandhas, āyatanas, and dhātus are regarded as ultimate and real, even by arhats, they do not perceive the emptiness of phenomena.
Astus said:
Once there is no attachment to the mental aggregates, there can be not grasping at views either.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there can.

Astus said:
If no mental aggregate is clung to, in what form can there be attachment to any view? Unless concepts are beyond the aggregates, I do not see how that is possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Your argument is internally incoherent. According your argument, a stream entrant should be Vajradhara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 7th, 2017 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the śrāvakas maintain these dharmas — aggregates, āyatanas, and dhātus — are substantially real

Astus said:
Aside from terminology, it is agreed on by both parties that a shravaka does not assume a self and has no clinging to the aggregates. So while the abhidharma style presentation may be criticised as incomplete, not the realisation, as being without attachment toward phenomena is the goal even in Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Since skandhas, āyatanas, and dhātus are regarded as ultimate and real, even by arhats, they do not perceive the emptiness of phenomena.



Astus said:
But until we come to Madhyamaka, there is no school that can escape the charge of being substantialist, including Yogacara (a form of nondual substantialism).
I have seen Madhyamaka interpreted in a similar way, where emptiness is considered some sort of ultimate substratum. Then one might argue that is the wrong interpretation, however, the same could be said about arguments put against abhidharma and yogacara as well.

Malcolm wrote:
But, in the case of emptiness, it is not substantial at all. Since everything is empty, nothing is substantial.



Astus said:
But the emptiness of inherent existence is not the profound Mahāyāna emptiness free from four extremes.
Once there is no attachment to the mental aggregates, there can be not grasping at views either.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Also, Candrakīrti's comments about the realization of the emptiness of phenomena with respect to arhats is only considered from the point of view of recognizing the absence of inherent existence. But the emptiness of inherent existence is not the profound Mahāyāna emptiness free from four extremes.

tiagolps said:
Because Śrāvakas focus on the extreme of "existence" and the extreme of "non existence",but not on the extremes of "both existence and nonexistence" and "neither existence nor non existence"?

Malcolm wrote:
It is because the fourfold emptiness is unknown to śrāvakas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
tiagolps said:
But to realize the emptiness of self you have to have some understanding of the emptiness of aggregates that make up the self, no?

Astus said:
The argument is that since in Hinayana the focus is on the method of recognising that there are only the aggregates but no self, they take the aggregates to be substantial. However, if we think about this a bit, this reasoning doesn't hold up, because shravakas need to realise that the aggregates are neither self nor the possessions of a self, so to say that they are regarded as substantial contradicts the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
No, since the śrāvakas maintain these dharmas — aggregates, āyatanas, and dhātus — are substantially real. Vasubandhu uses the example whereby a pot is a relative truth, its shards, are ultimate.

But until we come to Madhyamaka, there is no school that can escape the charge of being substantialist, including Yogacara (a form of nondual substantialism).

Also, Candrakīrti's comments about the realization of the emptiness of phenomena with respect to arhats is only considered from the point of view of recognizing the absence of inherent existence. But the emptiness of inherent existence is not the profound Mahāyāna emptiness free from four extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Personally, I like the definition of "root lama" I recently read in "The Excellent Path To Enlightenment" by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche as "the one for whom you have the strongest natural devotion".

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very Sakya point of view, but then, Tulku Rabsel Dawa was as much a Sakyapa as he was a Nyingmapa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 11:57 AM
Title: Re: Root Lama versus Dzogchen transmission
Content:
Stefos said:
Hi everyone,

I wanted to know what to do because I have received Direct Transmission under CNNR and
I want to learn Mahamudra as well as the 6 yogas of Naropa.

I want to combine all of them actually.

I have taken formal refuge vows under a Drikung Kagyu lama but have received Direct Transmission from CNNR.

I don't really understand at what point the lama I'm studying under "becomes" my root lama........forgive my ignorance.
I thought a root lama is one from which one takes Bodhisattva vows under.

My quandry is twofold:

1. I wanted to move to Arizona, potentially.  If I participated in the Drikung Kagyu lineage there, Would the resident lama be my root lama?

2. What constitutes the actual "root lama?"

Please help me clarify because I'm coming from a Dzogchen perspective

Thank you,
Stefos

Malcolm wrote:
The person who helps you resolve your confusion about your real nature is, from a Dzogchen point of view, your root guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... Jñānavajra's commentary, Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtra-vṛtti-tathāgata-hṛdayālaṃkāra-nāma...

kirtu said:
You have cited this commentary before.  Does it exist in any non-Asian language anywhere?

Thanks!

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately, not at this time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: How to meditate on death?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is a sūtra. No harm will come.

binocular said:
I mean that I'm not sure I can do it right without the proper guidance and empowerments; harm could come, from me doing it wrongly.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no empowerment. This is sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
Anonymous X said:
oldbob, I'm not going to quote your post in my reply for obvious reasons!

Just wanted to say thank you for the energy and intention you put into your reply.

Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to understand in a precise way how direct introduction works and how three transmissions in direct introduction work you should endeavor to read a copy of ChNN's Song of the Vajra commentary where the principle is explained in much detail.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: How to meditate on death?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to read the Wisdom at the Time of Death Sūtra:

binocular said:
Are you sure this sort of practice is meaningful and doesn't cause harm -- even if one doesn't have empowerments?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a sūtra. No harm will come. If this is how you think when you die, then it is very good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2017 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.

Astus said:
That is what the sutra explicitly says. But the question is whether arhatship can be a final attainment as nirvana without residue or not.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the Lanka, no. Why? because even though arhats have no active or latent afflictions, they still have traces. This also applies to pratyekabuddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, they are arhats. Jñānavajra's commentary

Astus said:
What does he say about the difference between the gotras then? I'm asking because since the Lankavatara was an important text for the Yogacarins, and they (Asanga, Vasubandhu, Xuanzang, etc.) did not accept the idea of a single vehicle, then that interpretation you referred to is not that obvious.


Malcolm wrote:
Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen transformed by its contact with the West?
Content:
binocular said:
Then how can you be sure that it has been transformed by its contact with the West?

Given its nature, shouldn't Dzogchen be immune to cultural influences and appropriations?

Malcolm wrote:
I was talking about Buddhisms, not Dharma. But there will be people who will create a Buddhism called "Dzogchen." They are already trying. But it is going the wrong way.

climb-up said:
Would you mind giving some examples of the wrong way?
I'm very curious about your thoughts on certain teachers, but I don't know if that's something you talk about publicly (...Lama Surya Das?). Otherwise, general trends?

I see a lot of books teaching sky gazing or something like that with no mention at all of DI or anything related. Tara Brach's book (which I like a lot) has a whole series of meditations throughout and the last is a 1.5 page guided dzogchen meditation.
Are these the wrong ways you mean?

Malcolm wrote:
The wrong way means using Dzogchen teachings to advertise oneself, to promote oneself, to turn it into a business, etc. There are unfortunately some teachers today who use the word Dzogchen to lure students, who then never teach them any genuine Dzogchen teachings at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
kirtu said:
LVI (56), verses 207-210 : http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-chapter-2.htm#chap2

Astus said:
Thanks. The sravakas described there have not attained arhatship, but mistaken cessation for nirvana. So that applies to those of indeterminate family, not those fixed to the attainment of arhatship.


Malcolm wrote:
No, they are arhats. Jñānavajra's commentary, Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtra-vṛtti-tathāgata-hṛdayālaṃkāra-nāma, clearly describes them as aśaikṣa āryas, āryas who are at the end of their path, i.e., śrāvaka arhats.

Jñānaśrībhadra states in his Vṛtti:
The way it is taught to ārya śrāvakas is that the mind in which are are no appearances is nirvana for those in whom the seed of compassion is absent. As it says:

"Since they are intoxicated by the intoxication of samadhi,
they abide in the dhātu free from effluents."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 10:13 AM
Title: Re: Phurba Practices?
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Well, I could be but dzogchungma would probably kill me.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it definitely did not work. Kurukulle is a power deity.

dzogchungpa said:
I suspect she may have been practicing it too.

Malcolm wrote:
You cancelled out each others siddhis than. Is she also a Republican?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Phurba Practices?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
It worked for me.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are not with two attractive women it didn't work.

dzogchungpa said:
Well, I could be but dzogchungma would probably kill me.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it definitely did not work. Kurukulle is a power deity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
Anonymous X said:
These are not the 'decisive experience' that Longchenpa writes of. When I said acausal, I was referring specifically to the decisive experience he mentions. This is not the same thing as insight or any meditative result of absorption. He specifically mentions all meditation falls short in this respect. There is no concentration or effort that can cause this. The Christians would call this grace. Can you understand what I'm talking about?

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa, in this case, is writing about the second word of Garab Dorje, "Decide one thing." ChNN parses this as "remain without doubt." How do we remain without doubt or decide on one thing? By using different kinds of experience to discover knowledge of the our state, aka the basis.

Also, it states in chapter 5 of Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra ( sgra thal gyur ) very clearly:
"The fault of not meditating
is the visible appearance of samsara.
The recognition of the basis is nothing at all like grace. Dzogchen teachings require a great deal of effort until you actually do decide on on thing — then you can continue in the confidence of liberation, or as ChNN puts, "continue in that state."

However, just so we can be absolutely clear the context from which you are speaking, precisely which of Longchenpa's statements are you referring to? Which book? Which translation? Which chapter? Which page?

There is no grace in Dzogchen teachings at all. For example, when we talk of "the teaching through blessings" or the lineage of the transcendent state of the victors, what is actually meant is that the Sambhogakāya communicates the teachings through light to the buddhas of the five families and so on. But there is no concept in Dzogchen which resembles the concept of Christian grace at all, i.e., "the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
florin said:
I was given the impression that dra talgyur tantra has been ignored for very long time( maybe centuries?) and its transmission lost .


Malcolm wrote:
The lung survives. ChNN gave it a couple of years ago.

The sgra thal gyur was not ignored, but its commentary, as well as the commentaries for the remaining 17 tantras were lost for centuries. They were recovered only in the 1980s.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
srivijaya said:
Very much so.


Malcolm wrote:
The classical notion of the two truths hinges on vidyā and āvidyā being different, the former veridical and the latter false. But in fact vidyā and avidyā are just opposite sides of one coin, or even avidyā has vidyā.

Lukeinaz said:
Ok so this sounds very much Tsongkhapa's presentation as well.  That the two truths are polar opposites of the same isolate.

Malcolm wrote:
You have it backwards, the two truths are considered isolates designated upon one entity, following Candrakīrtis state that all things have two natures, one relative, one ultimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Malcolm would you say ChNNR follows the " Dra Tal Gyur, the Reverberation of Sound Tantra" more closely than any Dzogchen Master now
living?

Malcolm wrote:
yup


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2017 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Phurba Practices?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Does the realisation of the yidam lead to the siddhi of being a hot-chick magnet?


Malcolm wrote:
In the case of Kurukulla, yes.

dzogchungpa said:
It worked for me.


Malcolm wrote:
If you are not with two attractive women it didn't work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Phurba Practices?
Content:
Nemo said:
I think there was an online course.

Grigoris said:
Does the realisation of the yidam lead to the siddhi of being a hot-chick magnet?


Malcolm wrote:
In the case of Kurukulla, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
Grigoris said:
While I can understand your devotion, statements like this are a tad embarrassing and  tend to point towards a form of personality (cult) worship.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, no, not on my part. It is based on the recognition of the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west (hint: it wasn't Trungpa, Dudjom, etc.).

dzogchungpa said:
I don't really understand this response. Are you saying that, e.g., Dudjom Rinpoche was not the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west and therefore he was not a Vidyādhara?

Malcolm wrote:
No. That is not what I am saying. Also, he is no longer with us for some decades now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.

Grigoris said:
While I can understand your devotion, statements like this are a tad embarrassing and  tend to point towards a form of personality (cult) worship.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, no, not on my part. It is based on the recognition of the master who really brought Dzogchen teachings to the west (hint: it wasn't Trungpa, Dudjom, etc.).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation.

Astus said:
Do you know where this interpretation began?

Malcolm wrote:
The Lanka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Thanks for your reply. I was under the impression that what you mentioned are not really Dzogchen practices, per se, but come under the general Vajrayana banner and preliminary teachings involving mind training and other preparatory work. I don't see Dzogchen being a 'how to' teaching and Longchenpa makes it clear there is no meditation involved in realizing anything. It seems it is an inspired exposition of the nature of awakened mind and its metaphorical qualities such as emptiness, openness, unity, etc., which attempt to 'liken' it to experiences that the ordinary mind can somewhat conceptualize, but never really grasp. He talks about effortless being and a 'decisive experience' that instantaneously awakens mind to this all. Time and effort are not involved in this. Am I taking this too literally? There are masters from many traditions and no traditions who have reported similar occurrences.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a Dzogchen path. It involves the seven mind trainings, semzins, rushans, etc., all as means to discover what was introduced, eliminate doubt about it, and thereby obtain confidence in it.

You can't have read very much Longchenpa if you really believe what you wrote above.

Anonymous X said:
I've read and been exposed to quite a bit of his work. I understand there is a process of mind training, up to a certain point. But, I don't see this training as a springboard to this 'decisive experience' that Longchenpa mentions in his writings. For me, the training is about cultivating a life that is not neurotic and harmful. It is a kind of psychology. What Longchenpa writes about awakened mind is not the same thing as an intellectual understanding of his writings where a model is built in the mind and repeated again and again. It seems to me that what he talks about is an organic change in the whole being that is far beyond an exercise, a lack of doubt, or a gaining of confidence. This decisive experience is acausal and does not happen because of.........


Malcolm wrote:
For example, the seventh mind training is involved with gaining experience in bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality so that one does not mistake them for one's vidyā (rig pa).

The idea that discovering knowledge (rig pa) of ones state (byang chub sems) is acausal is ludicrous since the consequence of such a statement is that no one needs direct introduction at any time ever and that discovering knowledge (rig pa) of ones state (byang chub sems) can happen at any time to anyone including animals, hell beings and pretas. In fact the point is made over and over again that the cause for discovering knowledge (rig pa) of ones state (byang chub sems) is the intimate instructions of one's guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation. They then begin on the bodhisattva path, starting at the bottom.

kirtu said:
But they proceed very quickly because of their accumulation of wisdom.  The real issue here is that they spend eons in their cessation samadhi.  Thus their attainment is said to be an obstacle to full enlightenment.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:


tiagolps said:
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Thervada has a different concept of bodhisattvas than Mahayana.

tiagolps said:
I haven't really put much study into the therevada view of bodhisattvas, in what ways do they differ?

"Very offtopic I know"

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhisattvas in their view are barred from stream entry because of their vow to attain perfect buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:


tiagolps said:
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.

Malcolm wrote:
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.

tiagolps said:
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Thervada has a different concept of bodhisattvas than Mahayana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone though Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.

tiagolps said:
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.

Malcolm wrote:
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.

Coëmgenu said:
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone though Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2017 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
climb-up said:
Not speaking for Oldbob, but ChNN differentiates Dzogchen itself from Dzogchen teachings.
Of course Dzogchen is beyond all concepts and limitations, but if we are not fully manifested Buddhas yet we use Dzogchen teachings and practices like Anti guruyoga, or semdzins or whatever to realize our true nature.
I believe that is correct, and in that case of course we practice within Dzogchen.

Anonymous X said:
Thanks for your reply. I was under the impression that what you mentioned are not really Dzogchen practices, per se, but come under the general Vajrayana banner and preliminary teachings involving mind training and other preparatory work. I don't see Dzogchen being a 'how to' teaching and Longchenpa makes it clear there is no meditation involved in realizing anything. It seems it is an inspired exposition of the nature of awakened mind and its metaphorical qualities such as emptiness, openness, unity, etc., which attempt to 'liken' it to experiences that the ordinary mind can somewhat conceptualize, but never really grasp. He talks about effortless being and a 'decisive experience' that instantaneously awakens mind to this all. Time and effort are not involved in this. Am I taking this too literally? There are masters from many traditions and no traditions who have reported similar occurrences.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a Dzogchen path. It involves the seven mind trainings, semzins, rushans, etc., all as means to discover what was introduced, eliminate doubt about it, and thereby obtain confidence in it.

You can't have read very much Longchenpa if you really believe what you wrote above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Vajrakilaya GURKHUKMA
Content:
SuryaMitra said:
Guys, thank you very much. The video you have mentioned , do you remember the title ? Anyway, I will try to find it in Vimala. I have and read Red Dark Amulet,as well as The Practice Of Vajrakilaya, but these commentaries are about different practices of V.K , not the one I am looking for.I will ask a Khenpo from Palyul, maybe he can help with it .


Malcolm wrote:
There is no commentary on this practice. You will have to find someone who has received this teaching and practiced it, or at least, been given the instruction directly from Khenpo Jigphun. I suggest you seek out Khenpo Namdrol, he is the best person to receive this from.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
[

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy.

Malcolm wrote:
I do not think you can point to a single surviving work. So it is a huge conjecture to claim that Abhayagirivihāra discourse has not defunct, completely and thoroughly.

Coëmgenu said:
I don't think there's any reason why we should assume that the Dharma dispensation undertaken at the Abhayagirivihāra would end just because their texts were destroyed. Unless all of the monks and novices were systematically executed they still had people who knew the scriptures, I daresay who may have known them for very well. Even if their orthodoxy had lost royal patronage I don't think there is reason to think they would necessarily stop their teaching and their Dharma-dispensation. Even if they had outlawed the Abhayagirivihāra teachings, Mahayana Buddhism has survived state persecution before.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:


kirtu said:
This is not very good advice, at least not as written.

If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.

If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.

In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although  I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands").  The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.

Kirt

Rakz said:
You would rather follow what your teacher says even if what he/she says is completely false and contradicts what the Buddha actually said in the scriptures? That's mind boggling. I wouldn't trust any teacher who would say something like that no matter how "traditional" they appear to be. What's wrong is wrong.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Wrong according to who? What my Teacher said was not false as evidenced by Buton Rinchen Drub.
Having said that, we can't just rely on literal translations of scriptures, we also have to use our intelligence and experience of Dharma, as well as our Teacher's direct instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
It merely means that your teacher repeated something erroneous stated by Buton. Buton is very popular among Gelugpas. Not so popular in Sakya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.

Konchog1 said:
So this is my question.

When a Arhat dies, you are saying that the Arhat rises from the clear light into the three and so forth. How does this happen without karma?

Malcolm wrote:
They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation. They then begin on the bodhisattva path, starting at the bottom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: How to meditate on death?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to read the Wisdom at the Time of Death Sūtra:
In Sanskrit: Arya atajñana nama mahāyāna sutra
In Tibetan: ‘Phags pa ‘da’ ka na ye shes she bya ba theg pa chen po’i mdo
In English: Noble Pristine Consciousness at the Time of Death Mahayana Sutra. 


Homage to all the Buddhas and Bodisattvas. 

At one time this was heard by me: the Bhagavan was staying in the palace of the king of the gods in Akaniṣṭha teaching Dharma to the whole retinue. After Akashagarbha made prostrations to the Bhagavan, he made this request:

“Bhagavan, how should a bodhisattva view the mind at the time of death?”

Then the Bhagavan replied:

“Akashagarbha, at the time a bodhisattva dies, he or she should meditate on the pristine consciousness at the time of death. That pristine consciousness is: since all phenomena are pure by nature, the thought of the non-existence of things is the best meditation. Since all phenomena are included in bodhicitta, the thought of great compassion is the best meditation. Since all phenomena are imperceptible and luminous, the thought which has no attachment to things at all is the best meditation. Because the mind is realized to be pristine consciousness, the thought that does not seek buddhahood elsewhere is the best meditation.”

The Bhagavan spoke these verses:

Since all phenomena are pure by nature, 
meditate the thought of the non-existence of things. 
With bodhicitta,
meditate the thought of great compassion.
Imperceptible by nature, luminous, 
meditate without any attachment to things at all.
Mind is the cause of the arising of pristine consciousness, 
do not seek buddhahood elsewhere. 

Thus the Bhagavan spoke, and and retinue, the bodhisattva Akashagarbha, etc., was very pleased. and praised the Bhagavan’s words. 

The Pristine Consciousness at Time of Death Mahāyāna Sūtra is complete. 

Translated by Malcolm Smith

Lobsang Chojor said:
Thank you for this great translation Malcolm, can I print a copy of this off for myself? Or will you be publishing this?

Malcolm wrote:
Print away.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
[

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy.

Malcolm wrote:
I do not think you can point to a single surviving work. So it is a huge conjecture to claim that Abhayagirivihāra discourse has not defunct, completely and thoroughly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: How to meditate on death?
Content:
binocular said:
Thank you all for your replies. I'm working on devising a daily practice for meditating on death.
My key question is, "Are you ready to go?", focusing on putting my affairs in order and maintaining the house and property in a state where they will be as unburdensome to those that come after me.


Malcolm wrote:
You need to read the Wisdom at the Time of Death Sūtra:
In Sanskrit: Arya atajñana nama mahāyāna sutra
In Tibetan: ‘Phags pa ‘da’ ka na ye shes she bya ba theg pa chen po’i mdo
In English: Noble Pristine Consciousness at the Time of Death Mahayana Sutra. 


Homage to all the Buddhas and Bodisattvas. 

At one time this was heard by me: the Bhagavan was staying in the palace of the king of the gods in Akaniṣṭha teaching Dharma to the whole retinue. After Akashagarbha made prostrations to the Bhagavan, he made this request:

“Bhagavan, how should a bodhisattva view the mind at the time of death?”

Then the Bhagavan replied:

“Akashagarbha, at the time a bodhisattva dies, he or she should meditate on the pristine consciousness at the time of death. That pristine consciousness is: since all phenomena are pure by nature, the thought of the non-existence of things is the best meditation. Since all phenomena are included in bodhicitta, the thought of great compassion is the best meditation. Since all phenomena are imperceptible and luminous, the thought which has no attachment to things at all is the best meditation. Because the mind is realized to be pristine consciousness, the thought that does not seek buddhahood elsewhere is the best meditation.”

The Bhagavan spoke these verses:

Since all phenomena are pure by nature, 
meditate the thought of the non-existence of things. 
With bodhicitta,
meditate the thought of great compassion.
Imperceptible by nature, luminous, 
meditate without any attachment to things at all.
Mind is the cause of the arising of pristine consciousness, 
do not seek buddhahood elsewhere. 

Thus the Bhagavan spoke, and and retinue, the bodhisattva Akashagarbha, etc., was very pleased. and praised the Bhagavan’s words. 

The Pristine Consciousness at Time of Death Mahāyāna Sūtra is complete. 

Translated by Malcolm Smith


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen transformed by its contact with the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Too soon to tell.

binocular said:
Then how can you be sure that it has been transformed by its contact with the West?

Given its nature, shouldn't Dzogchen be immune to cultural influences and appropriations?

Malcolm wrote:
I was talking about Buddhisms, not Dharma. But there will be people who will create a Buddhism called "Dzogchen." They are already trying. But it is going the wrong way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna in SE Asia were based on Indian Buddhism spreading to the east. Their scriptures were in Sanskirt, as is the case with Mahāyāna that spread to China and Tibet. It has never been the case that the scriptures of any branch of Theravada were based in Sanskrit.

Coëmgenu said:
These traditions venerated both Sanskrit and Pali material, and by "these traditions", I refer specifically to the Abhayagirivihāra and Yogāvacara traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
The Abhayagiri tradition was destroyed completely in the 12th century, at least one of its monks came to study in Sakya, Tibet. It has no influence on S.E. Asia after this date. It is anachronistic to term them Theravadins as well.

With respect to the kind of Buddhism present in SE  before the http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Articles/Sects%20and%20Sectarianism_The%20Origins%20of%20Buddhist%20Schools_Sujato.pdf:
A similar situation must have obtained throughout south-east Asian Buddhism, for we know that the areas of Thailand, Burma, and Cambodia where Theravāda now flourishes were formerly dominated by Mahāyāna, or Sanskritic Śrāvakayāna Buddhism. We note the widespread occurrence of the cult of Upagupta throughout this region, which is totally absent from Sri Lanka, and wonder whether this gives a hint as to the kind of Buddhism prevalent before the Theravāda orthodoxy. According to I-Tsing, in the lands on the eastern boundaries of India all four major schools flourished, while in the island regions the Mūlasarvāstivāda predominated.

When these areas ‘converted’ to Theravāda (which mainly occurred around the 11th-12th Centuries), it is impossible that all the monks took new ordinations. Of course, the official histories will assert that when the religion was reformed that all the monks conformed to the new system.But the practicalities of this are absurd: sending city administration monks wandering through 1000s of miles of tiger-stalked, bandit-infested, ghost-haunted jungle tracks seeking out countless little villages, trying to persuade senior monks that their ordination is invalid or improper and must be done again, all on the basis of some political compromise in a far-distant capital, in a region of ever-shifting borders and allegiances. As history this is sheer fantasy, and the reality must have been that the reforms would directly affect only certain central m onasteries.


The Yogāvacara tradition is a syncretic tradition with no Indian antecedents or relationship with Vajrayāna at all of the kind we find in Tibet and Japan. We might indeed call it a indigenous tradition, but to call it "Tantric" results from a misunderstanding of what Buddhist tantra is and what tantras are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen transformed by its contact with the West?
Content:
binocular said:
In what way has Dzogchen been transformed by its contact with the West?

Malcolm wrote:
Too soon to tell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:




Coëmgenu said:
But Theravada Buddhism had no stable identity apart from Mahayana and Vajrayana

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely wrong.

Coëmgenu said:
And caveated by what I wrote later in the same post concerning the Mahavihara monastery.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna in SE Asia were based on Indian Buddhism spreading to the east. Their scriptures were in Sanskirt, as is the case with Mahāyāna that spread to China and Tibet. It has never been the case that the scriptures of any branch of Theravada were based in Sanskrit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
But Theravada Buddhism had no stable identity apart from Mahayana and Vajrayana

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2017 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
He also briefly touches on the past tantrism that used to be a mainstream feature of Theravada Buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna was never a mainstream feature of Theravada. However, Vajrayāna penetrated SE Asia and Śri Lanka quite deeply.

Coëmgenu said:
Well, regardless of what we call it, in Thailand and Sri Lanka in particular, what we now call "Theravada" used to be highly syncretic with Vajrayana Buddhism, to the point where when tantric practices faced persecution, it amounted to a "reinvention" of Buddhism in the area, which was the birth of Theravada Buddhism in its modern day form. Is that fair?

Malcolm wrote:
No, since Vajrayāna belongs to Mahāyāna, and Mahāyan̄a in general does not belong to any of the so-called 18 schools, though it is heavily dependent on the Abhidharma perspective offered by the Sarvāstivādins.

Mahāyāna Buddhism in general was the main form of Buddhism practiced in Southeast Asia from 5th to the 13th century. Theravada was revived during the Pagan empire in the 11th century, and with the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna went into decline in that region.


Coëmgenu said:
The argument being that what is now considered mainstream Theravada Buddhism is actually a product of the 1800s during Rama IV's suppression of tantric practices in Thailand. What was practiced before was a free interchange and inter-mixing of Tantrism and some proto-Theravada elements with Tantrism by-far dominating.

Do you disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
I absolutely disagree. There can be no Vajrayāna without well established Mahāyāna traditions. Calling folk magic practices "tantric" practices is just a way of discrediting Vajrayāna by associating it with popular magical practices found in Thailand etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna has an unbroken transmission from the dharmakāya.

Dharmakāya --> sambhogakāya --> nirmanakāya (Śākyamuni, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, etc.) --> siddhas, etc.

Justmeagain said:
I guess there's a LOT of faith involved in subscribing to that view?

Malcolm wrote:
Unlike Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism's meditative traditions were never interrupted, necessitating a revival. We can trace with certainty the entry point of every lineage into Tibet from late 8th century onward. The situation on the ground in India between is a little messier. Theravadin schools apparently cannot make this claim for continuity due to a number of the factors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
binocular said:
Just to be sure: What exactly do you mean by siddhis in this context?
If you mean the kind of powers like levitating, reading minds and such -- yes, you can find Theravadins who don't think highly of them.

Boomerang said:
Yes, that stuff.

binocular said:
As far as I have come to know Theravada, that kind of siddhis are not regarded as important in the quest for making an end to suffering, nor are they regarded as a mark of high realization or attainment.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of siddhis: mundane and supreme. The former is for others' benefit; the latter, for one's own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Justmeagain said:
[

Regarding the 'unbroken tradition of the transmission of meditative praxis' I'd posit the Forest tradition of Ajahn Cha et al comes pretty close.


Malcolm wrote:
Ajahn Cha was a student of Ajahn Mun, one of the two founders of the Forest Tradition in 1900. Before that, there was no Forest Tradition.

Justmeagain said:
Yep...thats correct. But I don't see the First Turning as the start of a 'tradition'. So I gathered you meant unbroken tradition from a certain teacher or school.

Can you clarify, are you saying that Vajrayana has an unbroken tradition from Siddhartha? I'm just trying to understand what you're alluding to.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna has an unbroken transmission from the dharmakāya.

Dharmakāya --> sambhogakāya --> nirmanakāya (Śākyamuni, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, etc.) --> siddhas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Rakz said:
TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.

kirtu said:
This is not very good advice, at least not as written.

If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.

If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.

In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although  I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands").  The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not a standard Sakya view.

The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.

Buton's views on this and that are not main stream Sakya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Justmeagain said:
[

Regarding the 'unbroken tradition of the transmission of meditative praxis' I'd posit the Forest tradition of Ajahn Cha et al comes pretty close.


Malcolm wrote:
Ajahn Cha was a student of Ajahn Mun, one of the two founders of the Forest Tradition in 1900. Before that, there was no Forest Tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics
Content:


KarmaOcean said:
If Buddhism states that the Universe itself is sentient...

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Ayahuasca vision?
Content:
4526547 said:
During an ayahuasca ceremony years ago, I had a vision that was full of the brightest solid rainbow colors. Upon this colored background appeared some text in (gold?) letters that looked like Tibetan script (it was a very angular Brahmic-looking script). Surrounding this text was an ideal golden rectangle (its sides had no thickness), which may have zoomed into and out of the text. There were also several golden arrows outside it, on its sides, that were intently pointing at the boxed text, as if earnestly and urgently telling me to read it. I looked at it and tried, but was not able to decipher it, not being familiar with the language, and also being somewhat overwhelmed by the experience. It felt like a "place" that was exceedingly pure (in a way that felt "too" transcendental) and entirely made of mind.
This happened before I became interested in Buddhism, and although the experience doesn't necessarily seem to be related to Buddhadharma, my mind connected the experience to it, and imagined it might have been some Vajrayana teaching I was clueless to.

I'm not familiar with what kind of visions people might have in Vajrayana practice, if any (I currently practice in the Theravada tradition), so was wondering if such things can occur, if any meaning is to be extracted from this experience, or if it's just a substance-induced delusion.

Grigoris said:
Looks like your practice in the Theravada tradition is not all that solid, given you are off deliberately breaking precepts.

Malcolm wrote:
Did he say that he was practicing Dharma then?

Further, at least in our tradition, one does not have to follow all five precepts. Thus, if one chooses not to follow the precept against intoxication, there is no breakage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Justmeagain said:
[

I think your understanding of Theravadin practice is rather skewed too, sorry but its really rather a sweeping statement to suggest what you are.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are referring to the practice of śamatha-bhāvana, etc., it is true that as of the late 19th century, the practice of meditation had died out completely in Śrī Lanka.

It appears that in Burma the practice of meditation in general was revived towards the end of the 19th century by Ledi Sayadaw.

The Forest Tradition in Thailand dates from 1900, founded by Ajaan Mun and Ajaan Sao Kanatasilo.

Unlike Tibetan Buddhism and Chan/Zen, I am not aware that there is a continuous, unbroken tradition of the transmission of meditative praxis in Theravada Buddhism in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
He also briefly touches on the past tantrism that used to be a mainstream feature of Theravada Buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna was never a mainstream feature of Theravada. However, Vajrayāna penetrated SE Asia and Śri Lanka quite deeply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The difference between a table and "emptiness" is that the former has apprehensible characteristics, being conditioned, while the latter does not, being unconditioned.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Are you saying that emptiness is not apprehendable at all?

Malcolm wrote:
By what would it be apprehended? What is its apprehensible characteristic?


Tsongkhapafan said:
You don't accept that absence can be an object of meditation?


Malcolm wrote:
It cannot be an object of equipoise, no, since by definition emptiness is not an object.


Tsongkhapafan said:
Yes it does. Are you saying that negative phenomena cannot appear to the mind, only positive ones? This is incorrect.


Malcolm wrote:
There are no such thing as "negative" phenomena.



Tsongkhapafan said:
If you go out to the place where you parked your car, and there's no car there, you have a very vivid experience of 'no car'. That is an absence that has a meaning. Its apprehendable characteristic is absence of what you expected to find - 'no car'.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an implicative negation, the absence of something which exists elsewhere.


Tsongkhapafan said:
Similarly, the apprehendable characteristic of emptiness is 'the absence of all the phenomena we normally see or perceive' or 'lack of inherent existence'.

Malcolm wrote:
The lack of inherent existence is a nonimplicative negation— having been negated, there is no inherent existence somewhere else. Therefore, since the examples to do match, your reasoning is flawed.

Tsongkhapafan said:
If what you say is correct, it would be impossible to do mahamudra meditation which is meditating on a mind that is clarity, completely lacking physical characteristics.

Malcolm wrote:
The pervasion does not apply — the mind has clarity as a characteristic, therefore it is apprehensible.


Tsongkhapafan said:
A non-implicative negation has nothing by which it can be apprehended.
Of course it does. Buddhists have been meditating on emptiness since Buddha first explained how to.

Malcolm wrote:
Protestations without reasons and appeals to authority show poor reasoning.



Tsongkhapafan said:
The absence of inherent existence also has no apprehensible characteristic. What is its shape? What is its size? What is its number?
An object doesn't need physical qualities in order to be ascertained. A good example is the mind, which is clarity, the absence of physical characteristics. If what you say is true, it would be impossible to do mahamudra meditation.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, you repeat the error you made above. Clarity, as we know from Dharmakirtī, etc., is the characteristic of the mind through which the mind can apprehend itself. Emptiness has no such characteristic through which it may be apprehended. Therefore, it cannot be an object of equipoise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Rakz said:
Does it say this anywhere in the suttas?


Malcolm wrote:
No, this idea advanced by TKF finds no scriptural basis in sūtra, tantra, vinaya, abhidharma or anywhere else.

I know because I looked.

Also, the five pure abodes are not buddhafields/pure lands. They are perishable realms in the sense that beings are born there and pass away. They are in fact part of samsara.

Tsongkhapafan said:
There you go, grasping at samsara existing from its own side. For a being with a pure mind, samsara doesn't exist and the five pure abodes are pure lands - Hinayana pure lands though, mind you, not Buddhalands.

Malcolm wrote:
They are not pure lands. They are the top five "heavens" of the 17 form realm "heavens." Thus, they are part of samsara. You know, conventionally speaking.

For a being with a pure mind, Avici hell is no different than Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha, the buddhafield of Vairocana/Vajradhara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Is living off-grid realistic in today's technological age?
Content:
DGA said:
I don't know if living off the grid is, in all instances or even most,  a better choice environmentally.  has anyone studied this?

Malcolm wrote:
Not in terms of carbon usage. Wood heat is pretty bad in terms of large particulate pollution.

A few years ago, large areas of Conneticut were left without power in the winter (Hurricane Sandy), so much so, that there were severe air pollution warnings from wood burning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2017 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
I understand that they take rebirth in Hinayana Pure Lands.

Rakz said:
Does it say this anywhere in the suttas?


Malcolm wrote:
No, this idea advanced by TKF finds no scriptural basis in sūtra, tantra, vinaya, abhidharma or anywhere else.

I know because I looked.

Also, the five pure abodes are not buddhafields/pure lands. They are perishable realms in the sense that beings are born there and pass away. They are in fact part of samsara.


