﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 11:27 PM
Title: US hegemony
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
US hegemony.

Malcolm wrote:
Is still a thing, and a good thing at that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
Aemilius said:
If karma is bhava, then bhava does not exist without many other factors.

Malcolm wrote:
The cause of karma is affliction. And BTW, you are mixing up presentations. The six causes/four conditions presentation is a general presentation of every kind of cause and condition, while dependent origination applies solely to living beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 11:00 AM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
Jules 09 said:
I was reading their website, they are starting one month course. That is pretty expensive.
- Authentic Dharma, by its very own nature, is free.
Liberation is beyond value, and therefore has no price-tag.

conebeckham said:
Lovely.  Not true, but a lovely idea.

If one finds something to be “beyond value,” one would pay ANY price to obtain that something, yes?

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed. Sentimentality on the other hand, like the above, is a cheap trinket.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
A couple of quick notes:

Astus, My point about the links prior to ‘birth’ is that, as you noted, they can’t be changed. Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.
Regarding labels, I agree, but then all dharmas, including the Twelve Links and the Dharma, are labels. EOD.

Malcolm, If “bhāva = karma”, then why would the Buddha have said bhava instead of karma? Or used them interchangeably in other suttas?

Malcolm wrote:
The links are most easily broken between sensation and craving.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:


muni said:
Perhaps this clarifies the saying "be the sky and not the clouds while the sky reject or accepts nothing". But saying this is easy, very easy..

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, sounds easy, but not so easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:



clyde said:
Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.

Aemilius said:
Becoming has more aspects than the karma/volition aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
In both Nāgārjuna's presentation as wel as Vasuvandhu's, bhāva = karma. Among the four conditions, it would be the adhipati-pratyaya aka karana hetu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:


clyde said:
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.

Malcolm wrote:
Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.

clyde said:
Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:


clyde said:
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.

Malcolm wrote:
Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Perhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.

Malcolm wrote:
I was becoming tired, so I went to sleep.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Malcolm, I appreciate your efforts, but . . . I fail to understand either the meaning of “coming into existence” as a cause or condition, or its difference from birth (which is a ‘coming into existence’).

Malcolm wrote:
We are to understand craving and addiction to be affliction and existence to be karma, that is, they are causes; while birth is a result, and suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
And how would you explain it without words?


P.S: The Vibhanga is no help. It’s more words and mostly the same explanations which really don’t explain.

For example, now “becoming” is “action-becoming” and “resultant-becoming”, and some how (whatever “becoming” means) this gives rise to birth (of a being which ages and dies).

Malcolm wrote:
The term  bhava means "to come into existence," in this case, craving and attachment lead to existence.

For example, in the Nidana sutta it says:

" 'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.

Becoming
"'From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. If there were no clinging at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., clinging to sensuality, clinging to precepts and practices, clinging to views, or clinging to doctrines of the self — in the utter absence of clinging, from the cessation of clinging, would becoming be discerned?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:


clyde said:
So you say. I don’t agree or disagree with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu or Vasabandhu or any other Buddhist teacher since the Twelve Links don’t makes sense to me.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not hard, but it is profound. You are getting caught up on words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
that the teaching of “three lives” is “incorrect teaching”.

Malcolm wrote:
That is false. Buddhadasa ignores anything inconvenient to his biases, i.e., he dismisses Abhidhamma. The Vibhanga has a detailed analysis.

But you do you clyde. There is no point in trying to answer your questions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 2:00 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
If they arise together, then they aren’t ‘requisite conditions’.

And if all Twelve Links arise simultaneously, then they're not links in a chain and each link is a ‘requisite condition’ for all the other eleven links - which makes the whole notion of links meaningless.

Malcolm wrote:
Why don’t you read  Vasubandhu, rather than argue from insufficient information?

Nidana, btw, does not mean “link,” it’s meaning is more akin to “limb” in this context. So yes, they are not links in a chain, and were never intended that way by the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Sorry, I edited my post, but you had already applied.

My point is that a ‘requisite condition’ is not a cause (as in a cause-and-effect), but is necessary and precedes what follows. They both can’t be the requisite condition for the other.

Malcolm wrote:
yes, they can, otherwise, there cannot be simultaneous dependent origination, all twelve links operating simultaneously, and this is one of three presentations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Malcolm, The sutta is clear that each link is a “requisite condition” (not cause) for the following link which I understand to mean that the condition must exist before the arising of the following link. So, I understand how namarupa is a requisite condition for consciousness, but how can consciousness be a requisite condition for namarupa?

Malcolm wrote:
I just explained it. Cause and conditions are mutually dependent: without a result, there is no cause; without a cause there is no result. In other words, a seed and a sprout are mutually dependent, each cannot exist without the other. Without a sprout, a seed is a non seed and vice versa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 8:42 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Malcolm, You didn’t address the meaning and operation of “becoming”.

Nor did you explain how: namarupa is a requisite condition for consciousness AND consciousness is a requisite condition for namarupa. Unless I’m misreading the translated sutta or misunderstanding what is written, each is a requisite condition for the other. How can that be?

Malcolm wrote:
If there is no namarupa, consciousness cannot exist, in other words, the result depends on the cause and vice versa, that is, a cause without a result is a non-cause.

I did respond to your query about bhava, bhava is karma, specifically, in the three life scheme., it is the karma of this life.

You should read Chapter three of the Abhidharmakosha in the section on dependent origination where the three types of dependent origination are clearly explained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
I’m back to asking what is the meaning of “becoming”? And how is it a requisite condition of birth (of a being which ages and dies)?

And in reading the Maha-nidana Sutta ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html ) there’s this: "If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.’

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.’

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.’

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'
Huh?! It seems each is dependent on the other as a requisite condition. How does that work? According to the sutta, it seems to depend on consciousness “descending into the womb,” but then consciousness requires “a foothold in name-and-form”.

Malcolm wrote:
Name and matter (namarūpa) refers to the psychosomatic continuum. If there is no conception, the links cease.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Elucidation of the distinction between rigpa (naked awareness) and gnas pa (shine, calm abiding):

Malcolm wrote:
And you have been taught this text?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
My question is specifically about the Twelve Links.

Malcolm wrote:
That's why I directed you to the Mahānidana Sutta. But for people who don't accept rebirth, it can be a little hard to understand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2022 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Being able to explain a teaching to a child doesn’t validate or invalidate a teaching and that wasn’t my point. My point is that the Buddha’s core teachings are simple, straightforward, and easily explainable, even to a child - but not the Twelve Links.

Malcolm wrote:
The general theory of dependent origination is "Where this exists, that exists, with the arising that, this arose," simple, straightforward, and easily explainable.

On the other hand, the Buddha also said:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2022 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Sorry, but I don’t understand. How does identifying lead to becoming? And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?

Malcolm wrote:
It means the accumulation of action.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2022 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
For example, do the Twelve Links represent one life, two lives, or three lives, or do the Twelve Links occur instantaneously?

Malcolm wrote:
There are three presentations, which are all valid and interrelated: serial over three lives, momentary, and simultaneous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2022 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
Since when did Canada get hurricanes?

Malcolm wrote:
Since always.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canada_hurricanes


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2022 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Are there dharma protectors that punish people for studying Dzogchen – besides D.S.?
Content:


rupam said:
What do you think was actually happening to Tibet when China took over Tibet and introduced technology and better quality of life to the poor, illiterate Tibetans?

Malcolm wrote:
Since when did any settler colonialism offer a “better quality of life” to an indigenous population?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:




Passing By said:
I see, this kind of clarifies it a bit. Although wouldn't you eventually recognize both kinds of path rigpa regardless of if you practice mainly trekcho or thogal?

futerko said:
Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.

bryandavis said:
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state.  The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?

Malcolm wrote:
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.

To understand this precisely one needs to understand the triune pristine consciousness of the basis as well as the triune ignorance which can obscure the conscious aspect of basis. This is all explained pretty clearly in Buddhahood in This Life in topic 1 and 2. I detail the precise progression of the usage of terms in the text, which begins with defining one’s unmodified consciousness as the basis. The distinction between the basis and its conscious aspect may be found briefly described on pp 94-95 of Tantra Without Syllables.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: Romanian Terma & Terton?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Well these guys seem to have U.N. support, for what it’s worth:

http://www.worldgenesis.org/who-we-are.html

http://www.worldgenesis.org/profile-david-lewis-anderson.html

Malcolm wrote:
That should be a red flag for you….


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 12:24 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:


Kai lord said:
So does the fact that there are different results for the same path, make one of them reversible?

Malcolm wrote:
No. The paths are slightly different but underlying principles are the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rtog dpyod are translations of a pair of terms: vitarka and vicara. These always exists as a pair, and mean initial attention and sustained attention, and accompany all minds of the desire realm. These two mental factors drop off in the second dhyana.


These terms are also used where we would say investigation and analysis, respectively.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Thanks Malcolm and Cone, this distinction is very helpful to me, so rather than discrete thought it relates to a kind of initial subjective orientation?

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_variables

For conversation reference I found these on Rigpa wiki, it makes me wonder how directly this is tied to visual perception, because that would seem to tie in some stuff about using the gaze.

Malcolm wrote:
Rtog, in the context supplied above, has that connotation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rtog dpyod are translations of a pair of terms: vitarka and vicara. These always exists as a pair, and mean initial attention and sustained attention, and accompany all minds of the desire realm. These two mental factors drop off in the second dhyana.


These terms are also used where we would say investigation and analysis, respectively.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2022 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa also distinguishes the paths of trekcho and thogal in terms of nongradual and gradual respectively.


Seeker12 said:
FWIW, comes to mind, from Longchenpa:

"The appearances of clarity are the primordial wisdom of Thodgal, and The self-present peace [free] from projection and withdrawal Is the spontaneously accomplished emptiness of Thregchod. The aspect of cessation of mind is the Thregchod. The spontaneously accomplished self-clarity is the Thodgal. The union of [both], which is the self-arisen intrinsic wisdom, Is the secret path of Nyingthig [Innermost Essence]. When all the elaborations are completely pacified, At that time the self-awareness intrinsic wisdom will naturally arise. . . . People who cling to Thregchod and Thodgal Separately and practice accordingly Are similar to a blind person examining forms. They have not understood the [meaning of] the ultimate sphere and intrinsic awareness. They are the friends of donkeys. By gaining the experiences of the ultimate nature, the supreme luminous absorption, The attainment of the universal supreme (rnam kun mchog ldan), One perfects the [four visions:] the direct [realization of the ultimate nature], increase [of experiences], perfection [of intrinsic awareness], And dissolution [into dharmatā], And one actualizes the primordial nature."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2022 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Passing By said:
In the now locked thread, Malcolm mentioned that rigpa is actually subcategorized by trekcho and thogal and that the inseparability of kadak and lhundrub actually corresponds to thogal.

What does trekcho correspond to in this case? It's interesting since trekcho instructions also contain numerous introductions to this inseparability and sustaining of its recognition via the Four Chogzhags or the Nine sets of Three relaxations so it seemed like both had the same rigpa and result.

Malcolm wrote:
Kadag and lhundrup are inseparable in both cases. The distinction is whether one is resting for a moment directly in the radiance (mdangs) of rigpa in the context of impure appearances without the famous postures and gazes or pure appearances with them.

The four chogzhags are practiced in both. Simply put, the distinction between the two is impure or pure appearances as the path, leading to slightly different results (dematerialization or great transference).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2022 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa
Content:
Jules 09 said:
The practice of trekcho is concerning with cutting through the mind's habitual tendencies to make dualistic distinctions, which are based on concepts.

Malcolm wrote:
This idea of “cutting solidity” etc., is how some people explain this term. However, there is an alternate explanation from ChNN, which can also be found in various cycles.

The word “khregs” means “bundle,” “chod” is an intransitive verb which means here unravel or undone—the image Padmasambhava uses is a sheaf of wheat that has fallen apart of its own accord. There is no one to cut anything since the verb is intransitive, meaning the verb has no direct object, thus there is no cutting. ChNN generally translated the meaning of this as “releasing  tension,” in other words, to cease grasping thoughts and concepts as they arise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2022 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: two different Vimalamitras?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Extremely unlikely...

yagmort said:
please, read the thesis first

Kai lord said:
I did. First of all, do you find his following insertions to be convincing?
.....The Atiyoga teachings came after Mahßyoga and are arguably influenced by Chinese thought. In seeking to promote their new philosophy, the
proponents of Atiyoga developed stories demonstrating its superiority. One way to do thiswas to adopt the existing hagiographies of saints so that they came to glorify Atiyoga.....
...The reason the two Vimalamitras were conflated, or that one aspect of his story was a fictional interpolation, is again the issue of authenticity. After the debate at Samyé, India became for many adherents of the New Schools the only valid source for Buddhist teachings,and after the advent of the New Schools, the earliest Indian figures became the most authoritative sources of knowledge. A teaching which had connections with China and
appeared at the end of Relpachen’s reign would have met with resistance on both fronts. However, such doubts were resolved by conflating the two Vimalamitras and thereby connecting the Innermost Spirituality teachings with the original Vimalamitra, who certainly came from India....
I found them highly questionable as he didn't demonstrate in details how Atiyoga are influenced by Chinese thoughts from Taoism.

And he didn't demonstrate how Sri Singha was living in "China" at that time. In fact, quite a number of scholars thought that Sri Singha was more of a central Asian than Chinese.

The above two key points is his main reasoning behind the theory of two Vimalamitra.

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from the Vima Nyinthig, there is no account in the Mind or Space series placing Shri Simha anywhere other than central India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 12:41 PM
Title: Re: Zooming with the Dalai Lama
Content:
Sādhaka said:
More monks and nuns would be good.

‘Birth control’ though = probably not what you may think; but Yantra Yoga or Khrul Khor

Malcolm wrote:
he means  contraceptives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
conebeckham said:
Meanwhile, many of us are scratching our heads and wondering just what was Jules' point in the first place.

Anyone who has spent enough time on the cushion to have some actual experience, or "nyam," surely knows that thought-free states can and do arise.  It''s classically one of three such temporary experiences.   Is it merely that Jules feels this experience is some sort of "abiding in Rigpa?"

That seems to be the crux of disagreement or miscommunication, here......?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the old story about some guy who walks into a neighborhood bar, starts mouthing off, and suddenly realizes the regulars just don’t give a shit about what he has to say because he’s being aggressive and rude. So, eventually he leaves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan medicine how long to wait after eating
Content:
Toenail said:
How long should I wait to eat or after I ate before I take Bimala? I know it is bad to take with food as medicine should be taken seperately.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends, sometimes one takes medicine with food.it depends on the condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Thanks for the discussion guys.
All the best.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, best you take your ball and go home.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
My assumption has always been that in the Dzogchen view namtog is a result of Marigpa. I am not sure I have ever seen this said directly, but probably something close?

I think the larger issue (connected to op I suppose) is that Jules seems to be advocating that some rejection or avoidance of thought is necessary (I’m not entirely clear because he’s been so cryptic), or that Rigpa = lack of thought. I provided two TUR quotes to the contrary, which definitely accord with my understanding.

The other issue which has come up is the meaning of “self liberation” which IME is not particularly related to lack of or liberation of  a conventional ‘self’ in the Sravakayana or Mahayana sense sense, but more refers to the fact that in the Dzogchen view all phenomena of samsara and nirvana are primordially  liberated, so practice does not require any sort of effortful contrivance to liberate them in the first place, beyond the preliminary stages.

Again, Jules has been cryptic and it is hard to know what he had been talking about.
Jules seems to be advocating that some rejection or avoidance of thought is necessary

Jules 09 said:
- No I am not. That won't work.
Rigpa = lack of thought

Malcolm wrote:
You are just moving from one incoherent position to another , contradicting yourself at every turn.

Other people see this, the only one who can’t, apparently, is you. But somehow you think you are in some exalted position of realization, able to correct others in their practice. This would be insulting if it were not so laughable and sad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Again, Jules has been cryptic and it is hard to know what he had been talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, he has been under the close, personal guidance of a dzogchen teacher for over a decade. Obviously this makes him and his opinions unimpeachable authorities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
For example? I mean everyone else is pretty open with who their teachers are, but you continue to be cagey, as if you’ve something to hide.

Jules 09 said:
- You have already disparaged the words of one of the teachers that I have mentioned.., but that's your karma.

conebeckham said:
I'm not sure this is the case, Jules.  (None of us is sure this is the case, as we don't know who specifically you're talking about).
Further, the majority of Malcolm's comments relate to translation issues and as such, I am not sure if they are the actual words of a teacher or a translator's interpretation.   There was that quote from James Low, if I recall....Malcolm made a comment about florid prose or some such, which is not disparaging to an individual.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I found the quoted prosaic passage unmoving. In addition I find Kirkpatrick’s poetry tedious and pretentious, and pretty much all western Dharma “poetry” a crashing bore, no matter who writes it, no matter what lineage. But as Michael Tweed will tell you, I pretty much have no use for poetry. I never much cared for song lyrics either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Romanian Terma & Terton?
Content:


Aemilius said:
"After the ancient manuscript is translated, a mysterious antenna-like structure reveals itself as a result of
melting ice near a secret American base in Antarctica. Acting as some sort of cosmic buoy, it has an energy
signature connecting both to Jupiter’s moon, Europa, and an area of Transylvania where the remains of an ancient civilization were uncovered in 1990 amidst vast tunnels of solid gold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- I already have.

Malcolm wrote:
For example? I mean everyone else is pretty open with who their teachers are, but you continue to be cagey, as if you’ve something to hide.

Jules 09 said:
- You have already disparaged the words of one of the teachers that I have mentioned.., but that's your karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Still cagey, huh? And I didn’t disparage anyone’s words, let alone your’s.  Be that as it may, you have not even once, in this whole thread, properly articulated the view of Dzogchen.

Based on what you’ve cut and pasted out of context, and your inability to articulate the teachings in your own words, I just don’t think you are very qualified to be telling anyone anything about their understanding of Dzogchen teachings, least of all Magnus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Do you need empowerment for ngondro, or only lung?
Content:
Arnoud said:
I would ask Tulku Dakpa through his website. He seems the main man in the west who holds the byang gter nowadays. Normally I would say that views vary regarding guru yoga because empowerment makes one actually have a guru, and so one could practice everything but the GY but this Ngondro is quite Dzogchenny so it might be a good idea to double check.

Boomerang said:
Thank you for the advice. I just sent an email to them. I also asked about that untranslated guru yoga lung.

Malcolm wrote:
I will be translating this text relatively soon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Lankavatara sutra and/or Cittamatra doesn't say that there are no external beings or external objects that are produced from their own causes. It only says that we do not see them, what we see are imaginary objects (parikalpita svabhava).

"The Alaya-ocean is constantly stirred by the winds of objectivity", Lankavatara sutra, Chapter two, IX, verse 100.

Tsongkhapa and later gelugpas have produced advanced explanations of the Chittamatra view too, at least this is what Alex Berzin tells us:
"Types of Phenomena and Existence: Gelug Chittamatra" https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/abhidharma-tenet-systems/the-indian-tenet-systems/basic-features-of-the-gelug-chittamatra-system/types-of-phenomena-and-existence-gelug-chittamatra

Tao said:
Agree.

In fact, Yogacara has the "dependent nature" (see The three natures) which implies something (apart from mind) to depend on...

All phenomena is mind, all knowledge is mind. But there is the dependent nature of both (phenomena and knowledge) which is not mind. Be it noumena or other...

I will read the text linked, thnak you.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error. The dependent nature refers to the all-basis consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Are there dharma protectors that punish people for studying Dzogchen – besides D.S.?
Content:
Boomerang said:
I once heard someone say that if you're a Dzogchenpa, you shouldn't make tantric connections with gurus who do dharma protector pujas which punish people for practicing Dzogchen.

I know there's one controversial and widely banned "protector" practice with the initials D.S. that harms people for studying outside of the Gelug school. Is this the only "protector" that hurts Dzogchenpas? Or are there other, more popular ones I should be aware of?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner you should avoid connections with gurus who even have doubts about Dzogchen Teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- I know what my gurus have pointed out, and that is enough.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you should quote them and not some lama you’ve never met.

Jules 09 said:
- I already have.

Malcolm wrote:
For example? I mean everyone else is pretty open with who their teachers are, but you continue to be cagey, as if you’ve something to hide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Magnus, "self-liberation" refers to the thoughts, not to "us".
If you have recognized the First Vital Point, you will know that there was never any self to be liberated.

heart said:
Of course it refers to thoughts, what else?  Apart from the thoughts constantly referring to a self there have never been any self. These thoughts keep arising the same as before, but the difference lies in the way they are liberated.

/magnus

Jules 09 said:
- Without thoughts, who or what, is there to liberate?

Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
Is that supposed to read misconception?

futerko said:
Eye floaters, medically known as myodesopsia, are floaters that move across your field of vision. They can be many different shapes: lines, shadows, dots, and cobwebs among others. It is one of the main reasons that people visit an ophthalmologist.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Ah ok, does the Tibetan word being translated literally correspond to it? Like a literal description of floaters?

Malcolm wrote:
Rib rab refers blacks lines in the sky people with fevers sometimes see. It’s a well defined Tibetan medical term. Not floaters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
"To be free from thought doesn't mean there is no occurrence of thoughts. Thoughts occur even when you don't engage them actively."

- The text says "free of thought", not "free from thought"; there is a difference in how you are reading the text and how it is written.


Malcolm wrote:
Without the Tibetan transcript, you don't know what TUR actually said. He did not speak any English.

Jules 09 said:
- I know what my gurus have pointed out, and that is enough.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you should quote them and not some lama you’ve never met.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
"To be free from thought doesn't mean there is no occurrence of thoughts. Thoughts occur even when you don't engage them actively."

- The text says "free of thought", not "free from thought"; there is a difference in how you are reading the text and how it is written.


Malcolm wrote:
Without the Tibetan transcript, you don't know what TUR actually said. He did not speak any English.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2022 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Jules 09 said:
True Dzogchen:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- If there is still the belief that there is an actual practitioner there, who is experiencing the arising of concepts and engaging in the activity of "not blocking" them, then yes, I guess that is samsara. By which I mean, that it is not rig pa. Which is defined in the preface to the book The Mirror as the:

Malcolm wrote:
The appearance of duality is just an appearance, with no more reality than the appearance of pristine consciousness, which also cannot be established at all.

Jules 09 said:
- Clever words.
But why do you advocate "not blocking" concepts? That is an action undertaken by an agent, in the belief that there is an object arising which should not be blocked.

Malcolm wrote:
Space isn’t an agent, yet it does not block clouds.

Again, your conclusion does not follow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- If there is still the belief that there is an actual practitioner there, who is experiencing the arising of concepts and engaging in the activity of "not blocking" them, then yes, I guess that is samsara. By which I mean, that it is not rig pa. Which is defined in the preface to the book The Mirror as the:

Malcolm wrote:
The appearance of duality is just an appearance, with no more reality than the appearance of pristine consciousness, which also cannot be established at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"One also does not reject or block concepts, anymore than the sky blocks clouds."

"Asserting an agent who engages in an action is incoherent, even from pov of Madhyamaka."

- So, you have a duality between you and the basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Your conclusion does not follow from either of two statements above. Dzogchen is not a nondualist systen, despite being sorely misunderstood as such by westerners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Primordial State of pure awareness

Malcolm wrote:
This is an early translation of byang chub sems, not rig pa. The former is the basis, the latter is knowledge of the basis, according to ChNN.

Dzogchen practice, for him, meant discovering that knowledge so one lacks doubt, and continuing in that state regardless of appearances, concepts, and so on. For example, once the real meaning is discovered and confidence gained, one should be able to practice trekcho in the middle of all activities, and in the middle of a profusion of concepts. Trekcho is not a mind-based activity, but mind based activities cannot interfere with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- What is the Tibetan for "instant presence" as you are using it here?

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa skad gcig ma.

ChNN distinguished two kinds of rig pa, much like Khenchen Namdrol’s distinction between trekchod’s rigpa and thogal’s rigpa. The second rigpa ChNN characterized as knowledge of the basis/primordial state, inseparable ka dag and lhun grub.

Jules 09 said:
Is instant presence what ChNN pointed out to his students when he did Direct Transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
He introduced the basis, and methods to discover instant presence, the recognition of the basis, if the student did not notice it.

Jules 09 said:
And is there an 'experiencer' who has the experience of having instant presence?

Malcolm wrote:
Wrong question. Asserting an agent who engages in an action is incoherent, even from pov of Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Kai lord said:
In Sakya, the generic gnosis is shown in the third empowerment further enhanced by fourth word empowerment

Its also my understanding that Gelug does not seem to agree with that, they call it a blissful subtle state of awareness that one has to redirect it on meditate on emptiness that one is formerly familiar with.

Malcolm wrote:
Geluks still refer to this as an example gnosis.

Kai lord said:
Yes they do but its really baffling that many of their commentaries pretty much insist on practitioners giving up Yogacarin views in order to advance beyond mind isolation phase. Making one wonder if and why conceptual analysis of emptiness is still needed at that stage.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s logically consistent, even if Gorampa finds it unconvincing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Kai lord said:
So we can safely conclude that the practicing Dzogchen does not dependent on one's position in polemics?

Malcolm wrote:
No Vajrayana practice depends on an intellectually constructed view, since the view in question is the experiential view understood at the time of empowerment or through practice.

Kai lord said:
In Sakya, the generic gnosis is shown in the third empowerment further enhanced by fourth word empowerment

Its also my understanding that Gelug does not seem to agree with that, they call it a blissful subtle state of awareness that one has to redirect it on meditate on emptiness that one is formerly familiar with.

Malcolm wrote:
Geluks still refer to this as an example gnosis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
"Without concepts, there is nothing for ye shes to burn."

- So, are you saying you think that, when the mind is free of concepts, there is no ye shes?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no three kayas in the result. This is axiomatic in Dzogchen. Even dharmakaya is exhausted. Even rig pa is exhausted.

As Garab Dorje says in the Ati rdzogs pa chen po rgyud, “without the fuel of affliction, the bonfire of pristine consciousness cannot burn.”

Passing By said:
How does that tie into the death bardo? As far as I've heard it, the death bardo is where trekcho practioners liberate but the way it is described is that no objects, afflicted or otherwise, arise during that period prior to the dharmata bardo when the sound lights and rays appear, so how does it relate to that quote?

Malcolm wrote:
If you don’t recognize sound lights and rays, then afflictions are stronger than rig pa, and vice versa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Kai lord said:
Everytime I thought this thread is done for good, it exploded in size by adding several new pages of discussion and is back with new vigour by increasing new faces to the discussion.




So why was Rangjung Dorje's view inclined to the first position given his knowledge on Dzogchen?

Since He was widely proclaimed to be the master that inspired Dolpopa into developing shentong doctrines.

Malcolm wrote:
No idea, all I know is that Gampopa explicitly held position #2.

Kai lord said:
So we can safely conclude that the practicing Dzogchen does not dependent on one's position in polemics?

Malcolm wrote:
No Vajrayana practice depends on an intellectually constructed view, since the view in question is the experiential view understood at the time of empowerment or through practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2022 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- There isn't really any answer as to why there is one ground and two paths.

Zoey85 said:
Alright, let me phrase it this way: are you saying that it is not possible to have proliferating thoughts if you are undistracted from the essence of awareness?

Jules 09 said:
- Yes, that is what I am saying.

"

Malcolm wrote:
“To proliferate” means to spread.

In a state of instant presence, it is not the case that no concepts will arise, but there will be no proliferation of concepts , as I said above, no following or chasing of concepts, even though nothing obstructs their arising.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 7:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- There isn't really any answer as to why there is one ground and two paths.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is. Rig pa and ma rig pa are the two paths. According to Jigme Lingpa, the one basis is the alaya. If the nature of the alaya is recognized for what it is, delusion, this is the path of rig pa. the rest can be inferred.

Jules 09 said:
- Why?
If the basis is neutral, why are there two paths?

Malcolm wrote:
The alaya isn’t neutral. The nature of the alaya is ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:
LolCat said:
What is meant by mind here, and how does it interact matter? Not trying to argue a different point, I am just trying to understand better.

Malcolm wrote:
A mind is a series of moments of clarity and knowing. That’s it. It doesn’t need to be anything more.

It interacts with matter through the five physical sense organs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- You misunderstood. What I wrote is in reference to an earlier exchange between Malcolm and I.
In which, he appeared to state, that in his opinion, ye shes arises whilst the chain of rnam rtog (conceptual thinking / "conceptuality"/ discursive thought ) is unbroken.

Zoey85 said:
I'm glad I misunderstood. Though why would ye shes and rnam rtog be mutually exclusive (if that's what you're saying)?

Jules 09 said:
- There isn't really any answer as to why there is one ground and two paths.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is. Rig pa and ma rig pa are the two paths. According to Jigme Lingpa, the one basis is the alaya. If the nature of the alaya is recognized for what it is, delusion, this is the path of rig pa. the rest can be inferred.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
I agree with testing the propositions, not just accepting them because they're in a sutra.   But I don't see how to reasonably test theories of awareness... for all I know the instructions are right but until there's some means to test and measure then I'll defer adopting them, and I'm sure not going to just talk myself into believing things because I'm supposed to.

Malcolm wrote:
They cannot be measured by ordinary people—one must develop special cognitive capacities (abhijnana) such as recall of past lives to directly verify for oneself the Buddha’s teachings on rebirth, karma, and so on. In absence of such cognitive abilities, the truth of the Buddha’s claims about such phenomena, even his claim about awakening, will remain a matter of faith. There is no objective proof for what Buddha termed bodhi, either. For this reason, I am constantly puzzled by people when they profess to accept “enlightenment” and yet express doubt about the details of samsara the Buddha expressly taught his path to overcome, namely, the suffering caused by karma of past lives ripening in this one. Both principles, bodhi and karma, are not verifiable by ordinary people. Both require the development of special cognitive faculties in order to be ascertained.

narhwal90 said:
Personally I take the past lives material as upaya.   I'm in the camp which doesn't much like the term "enlightenment", as misleading and prone to cause grasping.

I don't know what bodhi, as Supreme Knowledge, is (to take the dictionary definition).   Anything I can think or say is deluded to some extent, the more eloquently and nuanced I make it the more subtly deluded.   Hopefully that is being reduced through practice and realization.   I'm happy with that, personally.    My goal is to attain realization about grasping and suffering and as a consequence relinquish the suffering that I'm able to and perhaps help others to also, and that keeps me busy enough.

Malcolm wrote:
The term bodhi simply means to be awake. Awake to what? Awake to how affliction causes suffering through dependent origination, predicated on an incorrect view of reality. The Buddha explained pretty clearly the epistemological basis of awakening in the sutras. They don’t have anything to do with meditation. They have to do with seeing things as they are (yathabhuta).

If some assert mind is an emergent property of matter, this is the annihilationist view for the simple fact that when that material basis ceases, that mind is annihilated. Likewise a permanent consciousness is utterly divorced from a material basis, since matter is obviously impermanent, and this is the eternalist view. They are not seeing how things are.

Though in dependent origination mind is given primacy, the continuation of the interdependent relationship between mind and matter avoids both these extremes, but it also bears the consequence that there is no beginning to the process of the interaction between a given consciousness and matter, hence, the logical necessity of accepting beginningless rebirth in order to fully grasp the meaning of the Buddha’s teaching, as well as emptiness, nirvana, and so on. This is “seeing how things are.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:


narhwal90 said:
But I sure as h3ll am not going to trust what "seems" correct or accept something simply because I'm supposed to.   I'm also reluctant to give special status to awareness outside of transience, dependent origination and non-self- and apparently also outside of the laws of thermodynamics, for much the same reason.

Malcolm wrote:
Mind is not matter. Dependent origination taught by the Buddha applies only to the mind, hence it conventionally begins with ignorance, the collection of afflictions which are the cause and condition of formations of karma in the past life, resulting in conception of consciousness , etc., in this life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
I agree with testing the propositions, not just accepting them because they're in a sutra.   But I don't see how to reasonably test theories of awareness... for all I know the instructions are right but until there's some means to test and measure then I'll defer adopting them, and I'm sure not going to just talk myself into believing things because I'm supposed to.

Malcolm wrote:
They cannot be measured by ordinary people—one must develop special cognitive capacities (abhijnana) such as recall of past lives to directly verify for oneself the Buddha’s teachings on rebirth, karma, and so on. In absence of such cognitive abilities, the truth of the Buddha’s claims about such phenomena, even his claim about awakening, will remain a matter of faith. There is no objective proof for what Buddha termed bodhi, either. For this reason, I am constantly puzzled by people when they profess to accept “enlightenment” and yet express doubt about the details of samsara the Buddha expressly taught his path to overcome, namely, the suffering caused by karma of past lives ripening in this one. Both principles, bodhi and karma, are not verifiable by ordinary people. Both require the development of special cognitive faculties in order to be ascertained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Question on "Capacity"
Content:
Mystic Sam said:
Hi all,
. Those with "high capacity", "intermediate capacity" and "low capacity" which affects your capability of direct perception of natural state

Malcolm wrote:
As far as this goes, there is no difference in capacity. Everyone who has a _proper_teacher_ can experience this direct perception.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of “showing a deer’s tail, while packaging horse meat” these days. So pick your teacher wisely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2022 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Question on "Capacity"
Content:
Mystic Sam said:
Hi all,

I have frequently encountered the term " capacity " while doing reading in Dzogchen. Those with "high capacity", "intermediate capacity" and "low capacity" which affects your capability of direct perception of natural state or enlightenment.
I was wondering what determines what capacity you have ? A person has high capacity because of mere coincidence or as a result of past lives or accumulation of merits or something else ?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, “capacity” refers to interest. People who are interested in Dzogchen teachings are automatically of high capacity. But in reality, in Dzogchen itself, while it is said on the one hand that no distinction is made between high and low capacity, on the other hand there are grades of diligence with corresponding expectations around time to buddhahood.

futerko said:
I seem to recall him mentioning five capacities involving application, participation, diligence, conviction, concentration, etc. - basically the amount of work you put in rather than any predetermined idea of talent. This is if I have remembered correctly.

Malcolm wrote:
He just referenced the five faculties which belong to the 37 adjuncts of awakening. They are a general category, and not specific to Dzogchen proper.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Question on "Capacity"
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
It would be interesting to know if he had a particular Tibetan term in mind or whether it was his choice of English words.

Malcolm wrote:
The term is dbang po. Best capacity = rab tu dbang po, etc.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Thanks, 99% sure it is the same term.

Malcolm wrote:
He also translates another term sometimes as capacity, mos pa, interest (abhimukha) when he is talking about the five capacities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:


narhwal90 said:
I suppose we'll just have to disagree on this, which is OK with me.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Probably.
But let me ask you, how is awareness experienced, except through objects of awareness？

narhwal90 said:
Don't know, I don't think its a testable theory... no equations, no measurements, no data.   But as for an opinion, awareness and awareness-of as illusory experience generated on the basis of evolutionary advantage seems fine to me.

Malcolm wrote:
But of course, tHat is not what the Buddha taught, and we are under some obligation as Buddhists to understand and verify what the Buddha taught, which requires the development of special cognitive abilities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Question on "Capacity"
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
It would be interesting to know if he had a particular Tibetan term in mind or whether it was his choice of English words.

Malcolm wrote:
The term is dbang po. Best capacity = rab tu dbang po, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Question on "Capacity"
Content:
Mystic Sam said:
Hi all,

I have frequently encountered the term " capacity " while doing reading in Dzogchen. Those with "high capacity", "intermediate capacity" and "low capacity" which affects your capability of direct perception of natural state or enlightenment.
I was wondering what determines what capacity you have ? A person has high capacity because of mere coincidence or as a result of past lives or accumulation of merits or something else ?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, “capacity” refers to interest. People who are interested in Dzogchen teachings are automatically of high capacity. But in reality, in Dzogchen itself, while it is said on the one hand that no distinction is made between high and low capacity, on the other hand there are grades of diligence with corresponding expectations around time to buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Total Space of Vajrasattva + commentary
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What is required to read this text, do I need a specific lung? I do not think I received this from Rinpoche as I'm sure it would have taken a long time.

Malcolm wrote:
It is best if you have the lung.

But as Peter C says, you should study it, with  Vairocana’s commentary, for which no lung exists.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Out of curiosity, does anyone give the lung these days?

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve requested Tulku Dakpa to give the lung for the 21 main sems sde texts. He’s tentatively agreed, but we have set no time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Total Space of Vajrasattva + commentary
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What is required to read this text, do I need a specific lung? I do not think I received this from Rinpoche as I'm sure it would have taken a long time.

Malcolm wrote:
It is best if you have the lung.

But as Peter C says, you should study it, with  Vairocana’s commentary, for which no lung exists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Kai lord said:
Everytime I thought this thread is done for good, it exploded in size by adding several new pages of discussion and is back with new vigour by increasing new faces to the discussion.

Shentong is a school of thought first developed in the 14th century and if we are to believe that  Guru Rinpoche wrote this, He must have already encountered similar traditions back then? Incredible.

Malcolm wrote:
The first position is yogacāra. The second position is madhyamaka, The third position is Dzogchen.

The problem with gzhan stong is its distortion of the three natures doctrine in its attempt to reconcile this with the two truths theory. In reality, gzhan stong does not go beyond false aspectarian yogacāra.

Kai lord said:
So why was Rangjung Dorje's view inclined to the first position given his knowledge on Dzogchen?

Since He was widely proclaimed to be the master that inspired Dolpopa into developing shentong doctrines.

Malcolm wrote:
No idea, all I know is that Gampopa explicitly held position #2.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Total Space of Vajrasattva + commentary
Content:


rupam said:
Trust me, you won't get your head split into a thousand pieces by some dharmapala if you read an unrestricted text without permission.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but you can have fatal misconceptions about what you are reading and block your path for this lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 8:46 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Sure.
But you will never "stabilize the view" by making effort.

krodha said:
This is a misconception.

Malcolm wrote:
As ChNN said repeatedly, “Sounds easy, but not so easy.”

Which of course is why we have semzin and rushan. Both practices that take considerable effort. Of course, we can’t all be awesome chikcharwas like Jules obviously is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Having received close personal guidance from a dzogchen teacher for the last 11 years,

Malcolm wrote:
Who is your teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
You may, or may not, also be aware that ChNN used to use the word "George" to refer to the recognition of the nature of mind, at least that is what I was told.

Malcolm wrote:
You've either misremembered what you were told or were misinformed.

"George" was a reference to the primordial state, aka the basis (ye gzhi). Rinpoche called it "George" because in the audience of that teaching was a man by the name of George Blaha. I know this to be a fact since I was there. It was a joke. But the point of the joke was that terms do not matter much as long as everyone understands what the signifier is signifying.

Rinpoche used the term rig pa in two ways: 1) resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness (instant presence) and 2) the recognition of the basis (primordial state), depending on context. He always made a hard distinction between the basis (the primordial state) and rig pa, the recognition of the primordial state.

So one has George, whom one either does not know (ma rig pa) or whom one knows (rig pa). Once one knows George, one will always know George, no matter what and despite the presence of a multitude of concepts. If this were not the case, ordinary people could not have the experience of either instant presence or recognition of the  basis.

There is nothing here to add,
nothing to remove.

-- Nāgārjuna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Kai lord said:
Shentong is a school of thought first developed in the 14th century and if we are to believe that  Guru Rinpoche wrote this, He must have already encountered similar traditions back then? Incredible.

Malcolm wrote:
The first position is yogacāra. The second position is madhyamaka, The third position is Dzogchen.

The problem with gzhan stong is its distortion of the three natures doctrine in its attempt to reconcile this with the two truths theory. In reality, gzhan stong does not go beyond false aspectarian yogacāra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
To meet the Dharma is to have a chance, one that is rare and precious in this world of deceit.
Knowing the Dharma is knowing that the knowable ego-self is not who we are.

True knowledge leads to not knowing and in this strange darkness, if we trust,
the dawn light reveals the sweet simplicity of Samantabhadra.

- James Low,
Finding Freedom

Malcolm wrote:
Ok. Doesn’t move me, but whatever.

Jules 09 said:
- The Dharma is not for you.

Malcolm wrote:
Turgid prose, definitely not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Yes, all the concepts are exhausted.

Malcolm wrote:
As well as all wisdom.

Jules 09 said:
To meet the Dharma is to have a chance, one that is rare and precious in this world of deceit.
Knowing the Dharma is knowing that the knowable ego-self is not who we are.

True knowledge leads to not knowing and in this strange darkness, if we trust,
the dawn light reveals the sweet simplicity of Samantabhadra.

- James Low,
Finding Freedom

Malcolm wrote:
Ok. Doesn’t move me, but whatever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- It sounds like you don't believe that you have buddha-nature.

What did Longchenpa say about result in the 11th chapter of Tshigdon Dzod?
In which, he explains the divisions of three Buddha-bodies and the Primordial Wisdoms of the three Buddha-bodies according to Dzogpa Chenpo, (starting with 227b/3).
And can be found translated by Tulku Thondup in The Practice of Dzogchen, p.413.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa said “the stage of liberation is first,” There are no kayas in the result, they are the basis itself.

The so-called result is not a result at all. It is exhaustion of all samsara and nirvana.

But this is all just words. In reality, the exhaustion of dharmata is inexpressible.

Jules 09 said:
- Yes, all the concepts are exhausted.

Malcolm wrote:
As well as all wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- So, your result is devoid of the kayas and wisdoms?

Malcolm wrote:
The kayas and wisdoms are path experiences. They do not exist in the result. This is clearly stated in Dzogchen tantras, by Longchenpa, etc.

Manjushrimitra, “perfect Buddha does not exist, but appears as a delusion to the deluded.”

Jules 09 said:
- It sounds like you don't believe that you have buddha-nature.

What did Longchenpa say about result in the 11th chapter of Tshigdon Dzod?
In which, he explains the divisions of three Buddha-bodies and the Primordial Wisdoms of the three Buddha-bodies according to Dzogpa Chenpo, (starting with 227b/3).
And can be found translated by Tulku Thondup in The Practice of Dzogchen, p.413.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa said “the stage of liberation is first,” There are no kayas in the result, they are the basis itself.

The so-called result is not a result at all. It is exhaustion of all samsara and nirvana.

But this is all just words. In reality, the exhaustion of dharmata is inexpressible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
"Without concepts, there is nothing for ye shes to burn."

- So, are you saying you think that, when the mind is free of concepts, there is no ye shes?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no three kayas in the result. This is axiomatic in Dzogchen. Even dharmakaya is exhausted. Even rig pa is exhausted.

As Garab Dorje says in the Ati rdzogs pa chen po rgyud, “without the fuel of affliction, the bonfire of pristine consciousness cannot burn.”

Jules 09 said:
- So, your result is devoid of the kayas and wisdoms?

Malcolm wrote:
The kayas and wisdoms are path experiences. They do not exist in the result. This is clearly stated in Dzogchen tantras, by Longchenpa, etc.

Manjushrimitra, “perfect Buddhahood does not exist, but appears as a delusion to the deluded.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2022 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Right, ok.

So, are you saying that you believe that ye shes arises from rnam rtog (discursive thought), whilst rnam rtog is occurring?
And if so, in what manner does this happen?

Malcolm wrote:
Without concepts, there is nothing for ye shes to burn. Also, carefully read what Shri Simha says.

Jules 09 said:
"Without concepts, there is nothing for ye shes to burn."

- So, are you saying you think that, when the mind is free of concepts, there is no ye shes?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no three kayas in the result. This is axiomatic in Dzogchen. Even dharmakaya is exhausted. Even rig pa is exhausted.

As Garab Dorje says in the Ati rdzogs pa chen po rgyud, “without the fuel of affliction, the bonfire of pristine consciousness cannot burn.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Some doubts regarding rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
Personally I go for consciousness as an emergent property of a complex organism.   Nothing special about consciousness, as compared to something like chlorophyll.   So not a property of a cell, but a consequence of the complex action of lots of cells, gradually tuned by circumstances and evolution and survival.

Malcolm wrote:
That makes you a physicalist. Such a position is incompatible with Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


futerko said:
yeah - it is written by someone who used be in the U.S. "intelligence"!!!

Malcolm wrote:
Ritter’s been out of the intelligence game for over a decade.he also claims Bucha was a false flag. In short, he is an idiot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
futerko said:
some interesting alternative viewpoints from the mainstream narrative

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/12/scott-ritter-why-russia-will-still-win-despite-ukraines-gains
The Russian military, moreover, is staffed by officers of the highest caliber, who have undergone extensive training in the military arts. They are experts in strategy, operations, and tactics. They know their business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"There is this verse from the Space of Vajrasattva:

Pristine consciousness (ye shes) arises from conceptuality."

- What is the Tibetan term that you are translating as "conceptuality" ?

Malcolm wrote:
Rtog pa/rnam rtog, vikalpana.

Jules 09 said:
- Right, ok.

So, are you saying that you believe that ye shes arises from rnam rtog (discursive thought), whilst rnam rtog is occurring?
And if so, in what manner does this happen?

Malcolm wrote:
Without concepts, there is nothing for ye shes to burn. Also, carefully read what Shri Simha says.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
How wonderful Malcolm. So none of the teachings given to Westerners by masters such such as Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, HH Dalai Lama etc, have any value unless one can speak Tibetan. Unless I have misunderstood, you seem to be saying that anything that is not translated by you is meaningless. The arrogance is astounding.

Malcolm wrote:
Westerners are often mislead by their own assumptions of what English words mean, since they have no access to the original language.

Take for example the term ye shes: there are two kinds, mundane and transcendent. So how do you translate lokajnana, ‘jig rten pa’i ye shes?  Mundane wakefulness? There are a whole history of issues here with people tossing around citations they didn’t translate, and frankly, do not correctly understand.

I know quite well what the Tibetan is for “thought free wakefulness” because it is just EPK’s signifier for nirvikalpajnana, mi rtog pa’i ye shes; I also know how it is used over a broad range of textual traditions— it does not mean the same thing from system to system.

It’s actually irresponsible for people who are not educated in textual systems to debate dzogchen in fora such as these. All they do is introduce themselves to error, cause doubt, and continue in that state forever.

That’s why we are not in a debate. I know much better than most people what these texts mean. If I say that concepts are not a problem for Dzogchenpas, it’s because i know this to be a fact, based on 30 years of concentrated study and practice of these teachings in their original language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
The confusion in this attitude is thinking there's a distraction where there is none. There's only ever emptiness and radiance. Deities are useful, like Home Depot.

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with Samantabhadra.

Kai lord said:
While I have nothing against Samantabhadra, its just odd that  eminent scholars Tsongkhapa, who was born right after Longchenpa finished all his works on Dzogchen and spread them wide & far, made absolutely no mention about the need to enter the path of Dzogchen after attaining the union of the non learner or state of Vajradhara.

Similarly Buton and 3rd Karmapa, both eminent scholars and contemporaries of Longchenpa, were totally quiet on the issue at least in their major works.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapa, likewise Buton, had limited knowledge of Dzogchen. The 3rd Karmapa was very learned in Dzogchen, and certainly understood this point. Longchenpa was quite obscure for three hundred years, and the texts  to which we are referring had a very limited circulation and still do. So it is not surprising this point is not well known.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"There is this verse from the Space of Vajrasattva:

Pristine consciousness (ye shes) arises from conceptuality."

- What is the Tibetan term that you are translating as "conceptuality" ?

Malcolm wrote:
Rtog pa/rnam rtog, vikalpana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Please don't jump to hasty judgement.

Malcolm wrote:
I just respond to what is written, no more, no less. Maybe you should take care to write more carefully?

Jules 09 said:
This is what I wrote:

What ?? The path is not the final goal.

"one has to reach (La-bZa-Ba) the great perfection of spontaneously present equality....
In nature (gShis) there is no path in which to be trained."

- Maybe you didn't take care to read it carefully?

Malcolm wrote:
I should have clarified, I only pay attention to what people actually themselves write. I didn’t pay any attention to citations people who can’t read Tibetan imagine they are using as proof texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: How to strengthen belief in rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
I am bowing out of the thread, but with thanks for everyone here.  My misquotes and the corrections suggested some homework and I found Buddhadasa- he seems right up my alley.   He is not without his own controversy of course, but certainly the next right move wrt me addressing the rebirth question for myself.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadasa conveniently cherry picks. We don’t choose Dharma in order to fit our preconceived notions.

Bhikku Analayo’s book on rebirth should be at the top of your list.


Toenail said:
Is it also good for someone practicing tibetan buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
The arguments are the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 7:34 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Please don't jump to hasty judgement.

Malcolm wrote:
I just respond to what is written, no more, no less. Maybe you should take care to write more carefully?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Jules 09 said:
"Thought-free wakefulness cannot be grasped by thought. It is quite literally unthinkable."

Malcolm wrote:
for someone who is into not thinking, you are thinking a lot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
You cannot recite mantras while inhaling.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you can, and you should.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kai lord said:
there anything similar in Dzogchen tantras that do the same with the state of Vajradhara and insist on everybody on entering the Dzogchen path?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2022 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
The whole point about the natural state, is that it is natural - unfabricated. But it is not conceptual thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
The natural state, aka the basis, is just a moment of unmodified consciousness.

If you think that concepts are something other than this "natural state," you have missed a key point. If you think a concept is the natural state, you have missed a key point. If you think the natural state is something like a gap between thoughts (but since moments are partless there can't be a gap anyway), you have missed a key point.

Jules 09 said:
- Or, if you are involved in discursive thinking and believe that you are practicing Dzogchen, then you have missed a key point.

Malcolm wrote:
That's included in the second point.

Jules 09 said:
To be concept-free and hold nothing in mind,
Is the path of all buddhas."

Malcolm wrote:
The point here is grasping/holding. To be "nonconceptual" is to be free from grasping concepts in Dzogchen. One also does not reject or block concepts, anymore than the sky blocks clouds. The sky does not hold clouds, it does not block them, or try to find a gap between clouds. Clouds just arise from the sky and vanish back into it. This is why concepts are not a problem for a Dzogchen practitioner.  If there is movement, fine; if not, fine.

There is this verse from the Space of Vajrasattva:

Pristine consciousness (ye shes) arises from conceptuality.

Shri Simha expands it's meaning as follows:

A citation states:

Asserting nonconceptuality is a major concept. 

Claiming that the cause, nonconceptuality, can give rise to the result, pristine consciousness, is an error. Why is that so? [the notion] that the result of omniscient pristine consciousness can arise from a concentration of the cessation of all concepts is a misconception concerning cause and result...the automatic cessation of thoughts and concepts has a samsāric result. Since the root of the three poisons is ignorance, one will be born either as a long-lived deva or as an animal.

Similarly, Sakya Pandita has stated:

Those who meditate mahāmudrā incorrectly
will be reborn either as an unconscious deva or as an animal.

Shri Simha continues:

Suppose cause and result are nondeceptive. If this is true, all phenomena of samsāra and nirvāṇa will be erroneous, and become become false and will contradict outer and inner direct perception. A citation states:

People of little faith
who assert a nonconceptuality that lacks concepts
have a major concept. 
The lethargy of the cessation of six senses
cannot possibly give rise to omniscience.
If it arose, it would be impossible, as cause and result are erroneous. 

And:

Nonconceptual meditation is a huge misdeed, 
[taking one] nowhere than the three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Everything is fine with Samantabhadra. How could anything go wrong?

Malcolm wrote:
And nevertheless, there is delusion, which is the point of critiquing the nine yānas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kai lord said:
Wow the discussion sure exploded overnight.



I'm surprised that no one has an issue with above yet especially the Gelugpas ( along with some Kagyupas) who accept that Arhats directly perceive the same type of emptiness as the Arya Bodhisattvas do. Maybe they don't read Dzogchen forums?

Regardless, since the result of Anuyoga is to achieve state of Samantabhadra or Yeshe lama (Sixteenth bhumi) and identical to Atiyoga. If the former's result is reversible, wouldn't it apply the same to the latter as well?

Malcolm wrote:
Tne deviation of anu yoga is seeing the state of Dzogchen as a result of a cause, so no, anuyoga itself has a reversible result, like the rest of the eight yanas, as Vimalamitra states.

Crazywisdom said:
The confusion in this attitude is thinking there's a distraction where there is none. There's only ever emptiness and radiance. Deities are useful, like Home Depot.

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with Samantabhadra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: How to strengthen belief in rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
I am bowing out of the thread, but with thanks for everyone here.  My misquotes and the corrections suggested some homework and I found Buddhadasa- he seems right up my alley.   He is not without his own controversy of course, but certainly the next right move wrt me addressing the rebirth question for myself.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadasa conveniently cherry picks. We don’t choose Dharma in order to fit our preconceived notions.

Bhikku Analayo’s book on rebirth should be at the top of your list.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"Thought free wakefulness.

Malcolm wrote:
This term, in Tibetan, is mi rtog pa’i ye shes, I.e nonconceptual gnosis. Erik PK translates this term as "thought-free wakefulness."

Again, the question here is the meaning of “nonconceptual.” According to ChNN, it does not mean there are no concepts, simply that one does not chase or follow them; gnosis, because one has recognized the nature of the mind directly.

Since neither self nor other are conceived, 
the nonconceptual, uniform transcendent state is shown.
When all sentient beings of the three realms realize that,
they are the same as all buddhas.

-- Kun byed rgyal po

But this statement certainly does not mean that one realizes a blank state like a piece of stone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
The whole point about the natural state, is that it is natural - unfabricated. But it is not conceptual thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
The natural state, aka the basis, is just a moment of unmodified consciousness.

If you think that concepts are something other than this "natural state," you have missed a key point. If you think a concept is the natural state, you have missed a key point. If you think the natural state is something like a gap between thoughts (but since moments are partless there can't be a gap anyway), you have missed a key point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: How to strengthen belief in rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
This sort of thing is exactly why I remain skeptical; as soon as there is an approach to critical definition ie, what rebirth is or is not, then the goal posts move.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha was very clear about this issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: How to strengthen belief in rebirth
Content:
narhwal90 said:
Questions of existence after death seems directly addressed as a thicket of views.

Malcolm wrote:
That applies solely to a tathagata, not a sentient being. The Sanskrit term for rebirth is punarbhava, repeated existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
PeterC said:
We really need a moratorium on out-of-context TUr quotations here

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that would be nice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
What ?? The path is not the final goal.

Malcolm wrote:
You’ve missed the point, since you think there is a goal, separate from the basis and the path.

Back to the point, there is no problem with concepts. Just don’t chase them. Trying to find a concept free state is just a preliminary practice, not the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Surely, if one's practice is effective, then the gap between thoughts grows longer and longer.
It would be a little strange if it didn't, no?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no difference between movement and stillness. There is no reason to search for a gap between thoughts. Nonconceptuality in Dzogchen is not an absence of concepts, it means not being conditioned by them.

Jules 09 said:
- Still believing in that ?

Malcolm wrote:
Not a belief:

The yoga of the final goal, the result,
is when concepts are taken into the path.
Since one does not abide on the paths and stages,
after one’s true state is seen,
it is asserted to be great, utterly pure liberation.

-- Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra

Since neither concepts nor entities are abandoned in me, perfect.

And:

Since the activities of vidyā are unobstructed,
mental concepts are diverse

-- Tantra Without Syllables


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: How to strengthen belief in rebirth
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
As a dharma practitioner, I can try to share with others the four noble truths and the eightfold path which leads one away from suffering even in this lifetime. I don’t need to believe in rebirth to do that. I guess my point is, one has to be careful about saying “that’s not dharma practice” .

Malcolm wrote:
The eight-fold path begins with right view. That right view includes accepting rebirth. Without right view, meditation is merely a palliative and will not lead to liberation from suffering. This is what the Buddha taught.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2022 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Surely, if one's practice is effective, then the gap between thoughts grows longer and longer.
It would be a little strange if it didn't, no?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no difference between movement and stillness. There is no reason to search for a gap between thoughts. Nonconceptuality in Dzogchen is not an absence of concepts, it means not being conditioned by them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 12th, 2022 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
And some further degradation is already baked in, in the sense that some processes already under way would continue for a while even if we reduced emissions to zero overnight.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for 1000+ years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 12th, 2022 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
heart said:
. These endless discussions might have a positive effect on some but not on me.

Malcolm wrote:
On the contrary, they have had a very positive effect on you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 12th, 2022 at 11:05 AM
Title: Re: 12 Primordial Masters repesentation question
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
or are the appearances here based on another source?

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN's oral instructions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 12th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:


kirtu said:
The policies had no effect on reducing greenhouse gas emissions.  They did clean the air and water in the US but that wasn't the main problem (I admit it was the main problem as understood in 1970 and 1971 in the US).

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to your comment on this post, which depicted sewage being pumped into a waterway.

Air and water pollution were the main problems people thought needed to be addressed at the time, which you admit. Those policies worked and still work.

kirtu said:
The main problem is and was the industrial pumping of greenhouse gasses...

Malcolm wrote:
Your argument was that environmental policies in the US have failed. You are incorrect. Thats the problem with "No True Scotsman" statements. They are invariably false.

kirtu said:
American ecological policy was and is and objective failure that this is the only subject to access.

Malcolm wrote:
It isn't an objective failure, there are many metrics by which the ecology of America is much better than it was 50 years ago. There is far less air pollution, water pollution, and so on. There is of course many metrics by improvement is possible.

While everyone wants climate change be ameliorated, almost no one is willing to impose even the mildest measures to forestall it, as Macron found out four years ago, not to mention the draconian measures needed to actually deal with it, and even those would be a day late and a dollar short.

In the meantime, we should not criticize progress we have made in various areas of environmental responsibility, as that in itself is irresponsible.

People need to buckle down and get ready. It isn't going to be pretty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2022 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:


kirtu said:
So a leader in utter failure and climate rape just like in the failed policies in the US.



Malcolm wrote:
The policies are not failures, the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, etc., have largely been successful. And the present Admin did an end run around some restrictive GOP legislation to strengthen the EPA.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2022 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:
tingdzin said:
Monarchy is not always bad. Sometimes what follows if it is abandoned is a lot worse.

kirtu said:
Several of the real democracies are also constitutional monarchies.

Malcolm wrote:
Which they wouldn’t be for long without the military presence of that “fake” democracy guaranteeing their security.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2022 at 7:30 PM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Good time for England to end the Monarchy. Quit while you’re ahead.

KristenM said:
Good time, as well, to post on whether or not harsh criticism of an individual when they die is appropriate. I have never been into the monarchy or royalty, but the Queen didn’t seem to be such an evil person herself to deserve being treated with abuse. She wasn’t a perfect human, not many of us are either.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11195181/Woke-liberals-waste-no-time-attacking-colonizer-Queen-mere-hours-death.html

Malcolm wrote:
She wasn’t a bad person, hence “quit while you’re ahead.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2022 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: Hey Brits, does this ring true?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Good time for England to end the Monarchy. Quit while you’re ahead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2022 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Perceiving spirits and subtle beings
Content:



Vajrasambhava said:
Is there a proper way to develop it?

Malcolm wrote:
Samadhi.

Toenail said:
What level of Samatha or Jhana?

Malcolm wrote:
You can look in the Pali canon, the Buddha lays it all out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2022 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: The Great Debate on Quitting Smoking
Content:
shanyin said:
OK so no vaping either. Today I will try to quit. I will not use my vape and throw away my cigarette butts and lighters and go cold turkey.

I want to quit this time and I've had enough.

No more excuses.

Malcolm wrote:
Don’t quit, just stop.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2022 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Perceiving spirits and subtle beings
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
In the most of the buddhist traditions, expecially Vajrayana, there's a lot of stuff, stories and practices involved into spirits and beings who are not perceivable through the 5 common senses.
The existence of special "entities" such protectors, Dakas and Dakinis are part of the refuge too.
How is it possible to perceive and to declare the existence of such entities?

Malcolm wrote:
Develop your deva eye.

Vajrasambhava said:
Is there a proper way to develop it?

Malcolm wrote:
Samadhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2022 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Perceiving spirits and subtle beings
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
In the most of the buddhist traditions, expecially Vajrayana, there's a lot of stuff, stories and practices involved into spirits and beings who are not perceivable through the 5 common senses.
The existence of special "entities" such protectors, Dakas and Dakinis are part of the refuge too.
How is it possible to perceive and to declare the existence of such entities?

Malcolm wrote:
Develop your deva eye.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2022 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Psychoactive intoxicants
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Onions and garlic are well known to be unhealthy in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
This is false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2022 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


Passing By said:
Won't such Buddhas, presumably more advanced than even the highest bhumi bodhisattvas, easily be able to access Dzogchen transmission from the Dharmakaya anyway?

Malcolm wrote:
Not if they revert to sentient beinghood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2022 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Visualization of oneself as a deity..

yagmort said:
does the same apply for Thigle Gyachen?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2022 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


yagmort said:
what makes Chetsun Nyinghtig, for instance, an anu- level?

Malcolm wrote:
Visualization of oneself as a deity. Thus it is based on sems, and not ye shes. Anytime there is transformation, one is working with sems and not ye shes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kai lord said:
Wow the discussion sure exploded overnight.



Passing By said:
What does reversible mean here?

Malcolm wrote:
It means what it says, it will not lead to the ultimate result and it is not a permanent state of awakening. One of the points of view of Dzogchen is that even buddhas can err into sentient beinghood, just as Mahāyāna holds that arhatship is reversible.

Kai lord said:
I'm surprised that no one has an issue with above yet especially the Gelugpas ( along with some Kagyupas) who accept that Arhats directly perceive the same type of emptiness as the Arya Bodhisattvas do. Maybe they don't read Dzogchen forums?

Regardless, since the result of Anuyoga is to achieve state of Samantabhadra or Yeshe lama (Sixteenth bhumi) and identical to Atiyoga. If the former's result is reversible, wouldn't it apply the same to the latter as well?

Malcolm wrote:
Tne deviation of anu yoga is seeing the state of Dzogchen as a result of a cause, so no, anuyoga itself has a reversible result, like the rest of the eight yanas, as Vimalamitra states.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 11:44 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you have a basis of trekcho, the creation stage is a distraction.

Kelwin said:
This statement is simply false, as Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons have explained many times.

Khyerim doesn't distract from the natural state in any way, just like singing the song of Vajra doesn't.

Malcolm wrote:
Taking creation stage as your path once you have understood the real meaning most certainly is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Yoga, Buddhadharma, cultural appropriation
Content:
TsultimNamdak said:
dreadlocks etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Dreadlocks on white people usually looks pretty awful to me. YMMV

DNS said:
That and when white people wear dashikis and other traditional African clothes. It should be allowed, but does look kind of weird on white people.

And then there are white (convert) Hindus who wear saris and other traditional Indian clothes. I'm glad we don't have those customs for convert Buddhists (except for the Zen robes and monastic robes).

Malcolm wrote:
You forgot about Tibetan Buddhist ngakpas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


Seeker12 said:
I don't think anything said here is necessarily incorrect at all. That doesn't necessarily contradict the earlier point that was made, however, that the optimal way to do creation phase practice is with a basis of trekcho, as Kelwin mentioned.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have a basis of trekcho, the creation stage is a distraction.

Seeker12 said:
"If you wish to train in experiencing pure realms, train in experiencing the utter lucidity of self-knowing awareness."

Malcolm wrote:
This is incorrectly translated, and has nothing to do with the creation stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Seeker12 said:
Yes, it is not necessary, but nonetheless it is often appropriate...

Malcolm wrote:
That depends very much from person to person. All of my gurus have stated over and over again the only essential practice for a Dzogchen pratitioner is guru yoga, rushan, trekchod, and thogal, and that's it. Everything else is secondary. Everyone has different secondary conditions, so what people do for secondary practice is different. Many Nyingmapas are not Dzogchen practitioners, most probably. So for them, the path of transformation is perfect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Yoga, Buddhadharma, cultural appropriation
Content:
TsultimNamdak said:
dreadlocks etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Dreadlocks on white people usually looks pretty awful to me. YMMV


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You cannot practice trekcho without having eliminated doubt. Often, what people are calling trekcho is not really trekcho. It is a kind of simile of trekcho. If someone really can be in the state of trekcho, they don't really need to do the Varjayāna practice of transformation at all.

Seeker12 said:
And yet for instance Jigme Lingpa did a shit ton of deity practice, as have many, many other masters who understand what's what with trekcho.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said that having real knowledge of your primordial state and being in that knowledge is an obstacle to practicing methods that belong to lower vehicles, if that's what you choose to do with your time. I just said it was not necessary, right?

Question for you: what is the yidam of a Dzogchen practitioner?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: When you practice generosity with a group, what kind of merit do you accumulate?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Thank you.

Where can I learn more about this? Abhidharma? Sutra? Shastra?

Malcolm wrote:
The karma chapter of the kosha, which uses the example of a single soldier in a group of 100 hundred soldiers. If only one soldier of that group kills an enemy, but all belong to that unit and all approve, that action is multiplied by 100 for each member of that unit. The same applies to virtuous actions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kelwin said:
Dear Malcolm,

I have always understood that the proper way to practice khyerim is from a state of tregchod. As long as our tregchod is not stable, the 2 stages are a way of recognizing and stabilizing it. Once our tregchod is stable however, the khyerim becomes an enhancement practice. Deepening our realization and manifesting the 4 activities. Does that make any sense?

Seeker12 said:
I have also heard, best I recall/understand, a Nyingma/Dzogchen teacher teach that ideally, we first learn the proper Dzogchen view related to trekcho,

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot practice trekcho without having eliminated doubt. Often, what people are calling trekcho is not really trekcho. It is a kind of simile of trekcho. If someone really can be in the state of trekcho, they don't really need to do the Varjayāna practice of transformation at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 1st, 2022 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Matt J said:
I believe Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche taught it that way, as does Tergar (Mingyur Rinpoche). In fact, Tergar is about to do a whole year long program on this.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe so. But they are not my teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It means what it says, it will not lead to the ultimate result and it is not a permanent state of awakening. One of the points of view of Dzogchen is that even buddhas can err into sentient beinghood, just as Mahāyāna holds that arhatship is reversible.

Seeker12 said:
Does this relate at all to the statements in the Kosha about the 6 types of arhats and how all but one are reversible?

Malcolm wrote:
It may.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:



Passing By said:
What does reversible mean here?

Malcolm wrote:
It means what it says, it will not lead to the ultimate result and it is not a permanent state of awakening. One of the points of view of Dzogchen is that even buddhas can err into sentient beinghood, just as Mahāyāna holds that arhatship is reversible.


Passing By said:
Speaking of which, Longde really looks like it's the simplest of the Dzogchen paths, method-wise. Some people also draw parallels between it and the sky gazing practice found in Zhangzhung Nyengyud. Why is Longde so rare these days?

Malcolm wrote:
Because Man ngag sde goes more to the essence and has a more comprehensive discussion of the body, its anatomy, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: Yoga, Buddhadharma, cultural appropriation
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I recently hung out with a friend I haven’t seen in a while. A lot of my friends and family are atheists, and generally left wing, but a spectrum there. I don’t generally talk Dharma with them as they would have no idea what I was talking about and would just call me superstitious.

Anyway, the subject of Yoga came up and my friend launched into the perils of “colonizing” or culturally appropriating Yoga, it prompted a bit of polite disagreement, and I am curious what people here think.


Malcolm wrote:
Your friend is tripping. They also don’t understand history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 10:03 AM
Title: Re: When you practice generosity with a group, what kind of merit do you accumulate?
Content:
Nalanda said:
When there is a Buddhist project facilitated by monastics for example, and you participate by practicing generosity like giving donations, do you receive the same (amount/type/value) of merit as the monks or the head of the project?

Malcolm wrote:
The merit is multiplied by the number of people in the group. If one hundred people, every gets one hundred times the merit.the same applies to nonvirtue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
It is a basic tenet of Buddhist theory.
It is what Buddhism proposes to be true. Therefore it is Buddhist theory.
What do you think ‘theory’ means?

Malcolm wrote:
as above, an axiom is held to be a self-evident truth, not a theory. BTW, you seem to putting a lot of energy into sowing doubt about rebirth.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If people thought that rebirth was self-evident, this discussion would not be taking place.
And actually, I do think it is self-evident, if one abandons the idea that there is a “self” that is reborn.
If I am sowing doubts about anything, it is only the unnecessarily dubious reasoning used by so many to defend the concept of rebirth.

Malcolm wrote:
Who said there was a self that was reborn? On the other hand, the Buddha himself said hundreds of places, "when I was so and so, in such and such a clan, during the reign of such and such a king, when there was Buddha so and so..."

1) The Buddha taught rebirth. 2) Those with the proper faculties can verify the Buddha's doctrine on rebirth directly, without recourse to inference. 3) And the inferential reasoning that establishes rebirth is sound. These are the three valid cognitions we accept in Buddhadharma: testimony of a reliable witness, direct perception of undamaged senses, and inference. These three valid cognitions are also accepted by the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: The Great Debate on Quitting Smoking
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All nicotine is out of your system in 48 hours. The rest is just mental habit.

Quitting is hard.

Stopping is easy.

How do I know? I both quit and stopped. Quitting was hard. Stopping was easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
It is a basic tenet of Buddhist theory.
It is what Buddhism proposes to be true. Therefore it is Buddhist theory.
What do you think ‘theory’ means?

Malcolm wrote:
as above, an axiom is held to be a self-evident truth, not a theory. BTW, you seem to putting a lot of energy into sowing doubt about rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Matt J said:
Western epicureanism is very strong.

Malcolm wrote:
I wasn't Buddhist, I would be an Epicurean. Best greek philosopher ever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I would argue that the 'one-out - one in' conception of rebirth is much more mired in clinging to a concept of self. Noone here is denying the possibility of some form of rebirth - just that its existence is not provable.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth occurs because of the habit of I-making. When that habit is eradicated, then one has control over birth. It may not be "provable" to those commoners with ordinary, contaminated, undeveloped sense organs, but it is verifiable by those who make the effort to cultivate samadhi and the deva eye, etc. That community has found rebirth empirically validated amongst themselves.


PadmaVonSamba said:
The point is, you can’t prove that it is verifiable.

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot prove it to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
You can’t prove that anyone has some kind of “uncontaminated” sense perception.

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot prove it to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
That too is a matter of faith.

Malcolm wrote:
Only to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions. But even ordinary people who possess the higher cognitions can verify these things.

For example, if someone does not have a powerful microscope, they cannot verify claims of this or that microbe. Someone who has such an instrument is able to. If one wants to develop the higher cognitions, the method to do so is described by the Buddha in many places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Theravada
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
Pan-Buddhist forums inevitably descend into sectarian bickering, and not even in an interesting way.

Malcolm wrote:
Seconded. We have enough problems keeping the Mahāyāna forum descending into noninteresting bickering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Sickness and karma: Medicine Buddha practice
Content:
Tsewang88 said:
Hi
I was looking at the Medicine Buddha practice by Karma Chagme in Lotsawa House. In the colophon, it says:
If you recite this mantra according to the severity of the disease, whether a hundred, a thousand, or as many times as you can, you should have no doubt that all illness (other than that due to the ripening of past karma) will be pacified. This is clearly stated in both the long and short medicine sūtras.

Where it says "other than that due to the ripening of past karma", isn't ALL sickness due to the ripening of past karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Of the 404 kinds of illness, 101 are karmic illnesses which cannot be addressed by medical means. There are another 101 minor illnesses which require no treatment, 101 illness which require treatment, and 101 demonic illness which require ritual methods to overcome.

Also, one should be aware that the ultimate cause of all illness is grasping at a self; the indirect cause of all illness is the three afflictions, desire. hatred, and confusion; and the direct cause of all illness is the three doṣas, vata, pitta, and kapha. Karma, action, is caused by the three afflictions. So ultimately, sickness can be a karma-vipaka, but karma is not the cause of illness, it's a condition for illness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
After Garab Dorje placed his hand on Mañjuśrīmitra’s head, he blessed him with A Ha Ho ‘I.  A means nonarising. Ha means unceasing. Ho means nondual. ‘I means inseparability, the meaning of nonduality.

Kai lord said:
Is it reasonable to equate the above with the four signs?

For example

A (non arising) = Non conceptualization

Ha (unceasing) = Clarity

Ho (non duality) = Bliss

'I (Inseparability)  = Inseparability of clarity,  bliss and non conceptualization

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, these are the four da, symbolically expressed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kelwin said:
, the khyerim becomes an enhancement practice. Deepening our realization and manifesting the 4 activities. Does that make any sense?

Malcolm wrote:
Someone might teach it that way. I have never heard it taught that way.

I am just following what teachers taught, especially ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Sure we are. You are ignoring the evidence, of which there is plenty.

The Kongtrul book, BTW.

kirtu said:
Which Kongtrul book, just to be clear ("The Treasury of Knowledge: Books Two, Three, and Four: Buddhism's Journey to Tibet" ?)?
However Jamgon Kongtrul was not an eye witness to the development of the sangha in India from the 2nd to 8th or so CE.  Secondly "Treasury" (and thus his Ethics) was written between 1865 to 1880.  Malcolm has previously admitted elsewhere that Tibetans suffer from a lack of reliable history.  Little published in Tibetan sources about India prior to around 1000 CE is reliable history.

We do have the records of Chinese Buddhist observers over a several hundred year period.

Malcolm wrote:
The evidence rests in a plethora of polemics composed before 500 CE which demonstrate that relations between Mahayanists and non-Mahayanists were uneasy at best, further exemplified by the purges against Mahayana carried out in Shri Lanka and SE Asia. The point of the Kongtrul reference was to show that indeed, being overly interested in the Agamas, as well as nonBuddhist treatises, was considered an infraction of the bodhisattva vows, as I initially stated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:
Nalanda said:
This is what he said:
"Mahayanists writing about Theravadins and vice versa"
What Mahayanist commentaries mentioned "Theravada"?

(I wouldn't ask this of you because I know what you mean. But I would ask this of the poster who wanted to be "precise".)

Malcolm wrote:
Too many to mention. The idea that Theravada is not a contusion of Sthaviravada is patently absurd.

Nagarjuna explicitly addresses the Sthaviravadin doctrine of karma, still current in Theravada, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 7:39 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:




Nalanda said:
So they didn't. I have never seen a Mahayana work that talked about the "Theravadins".

Unless you can cite an actual Mahayana work that cite "Theravada".

Hinayana and Small Vehicle or such don't count. It has to be "Theravada".

Malcolm wrote:
There are many such texts that mention Sthaviravāda. Theravada is a later name for the school originally called Sthaviravāda.

Nalanda said:
Not the same. He was very specific and he wanted to be precise. He said "Theravada". "Theravada" is the Sri Lankan order (consisting of Abhayagira, Jetavana, Mahavihara) that in the 12th century became exclusively Mahaviharin. Sthaviravada by common parlance in Early Buddhism was understood as the other major division of Buddhism in India. Everyone including their dog knew of them. Even "Vibhajyavada" in the South is not enough. Although less known was not completely unheard of. But Theravada? Did Mahayana Sutras mention them? I want to see citations of the poster's claim that the Mahayana sutras mention the "Tambapanniya" (Ceylon) aka "Theravada". That is a bold claim. I'm more inclined to believe that the Mahayanists wrote about the Mormons if that's the case.

Malcolm wrote:
He said texts, not sutras. So, according to yo, the Pali canon does not belong the Sthaviravada? So yes, Theravada, or it s precursors were addressed by name in Mahayana commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
reiun said:
By some, only. Remember: it is the "contaminated commoners" who are in the majority, especially in this case. Most of them probably think it is just a copout by the elites for not showing the actual proof of rebirth. No doubt there must be at least 86,000 examples hiding somewhere . . .

Malcolm wrote:
It's like showing light to the congenitally blind, they have not developed the cognitive capacity to verify such phenomena for themselves. But everyone is capable of developing this capacity, thus it is different than congenital blindness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:



Nalanda said:
They did? What Mahayanist writing talked about Theravadins?

Kim O'Hara said:
Well, you could start by looking for every single usage of the word "Hinayana", which the Theravadins never applied to themselves. ("We" are the Great Vehicle; "they" are the Small Vehicle. "We" are much better than "they" are, right?)


Kim


Nalanda said:
So they didn't. I have never seen a Mahayana work that talked about the "Theravadins".

Unless you can cite an actual Mahayana work that cite "Theravada".

Hinayana and Small Vehicle or such don't count. It has to be "Theravada".

Malcolm wrote:
There are many such texts that mention Sthaviravāda. Theravada is a later name for the school originally called Sthaviravāda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
reiun said:
No human, teacher or otherwise, is or ever has been infallible.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha, axiomatically, is infallible about awakening and the path for realizing it. That is why he is called the Buddha.

reiun said:
Axiomatically, as in "propositionally".

Malcolm wrote:
Axiomatically, as in "a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
reiun said:
No human, teacher or otherwise, is or ever has been infallible.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha, axiomatically, is infallible about awakening and the path for realizing it. That is why he is called the Buddha.

He does not need to be free from error about number of ants in an ant colony, that kind of knowledge is irrelevant to bodhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Quite honestly, I never understood how people can accept the idea of bodhi, and at the same time, reject karma and the rest of it. It makes no sense whatsoever to accept that the Buddha was an fully awake person who was incorrect about his entire model of liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:


Knotty Veneer said:
The problem I find with those who accept things they cannot know on faith is when they cannot then admit they might - just might - not know the whole story.

Malcolm wrote:
We accept that the Buddha knew the whole story. That's why we are Buddhists and not followers of some other religion. The Buddha made it very clear that we should accept the testimony of awakened people about hidden phenomena ordinary people cannot directly know through higher cognition (abhijñā), such as recollection of past lives, knowing the minds of others, and even the fact of awakening, and so on. Why do you accept the idea of awakening but reject the idea of rebirth. Neither is verifiable according to mundane empirical methods of validating evidence.

It may not appeal to you to accept things like rebirth and karma in absence of empirical validation of such phenomena by mundane science, but that's your problem, not ours. It's understandable that people would react with doubt about your skepticism about central problem Buddha set out to solve: how to end the suffering of rebirth. But in the end, what you choose to believe is up to you. But it is a choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
What practices help you face death and dying, and what have you learnt from them?

Malcolm wrote:
Asked and answered.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I would argue that the 'one-out - one in' conception of rebirth is much more mired in clinging to a concept of self. Noone here is denying the possibility of some form of rebirth - just that its existence is not provable.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth occurs because of the habit of I-making. When that habit is eradicated, then one has control over birth. It may not be "provable" to those commoners with ordinary, contaminated, undeveloped sense organs, but it is verifiable by those who make the effort to cultivate samadhi and the deva eye, etc. That community has found rebirth empirically validated amongst themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:


Knotty Veneer said:
I disagree. One thing that certainly survives the death of the body are our actions. Our ability to help beings certainly can survive the death of the body. Through your children, those you influenced for the good, maybe through books you wrote or charitable giving you made. Our karma ripples out long after we are gone.

Malcolm wrote:
One's karma does not ripple out or ripen on anyone else. This is a common misunderstanding of karma in the West. As the Buddha says:

"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir."

One cannot be an heir of one's actions, if, at death, one's continuum utterly ceases.

One's acts on the other hand may and can affect others. Action (karma) and deeds/acts (kāra) are two separate words in Sanskrit, with different meanings. In English this distinction is not as precise, since "actions" and "deeds" are synonymous. It is mostly a translation issue.

Karma is intention and intentional physical and verbal acts. The vipaka or ripening of such intentions and intentional acts is what most people mean when they say, colloquially, that was my karma. But in fact while our acts or deeds can affect others, their ripening, positive or negative, ripens only on ourselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I think we have a doctrinal dispute between those traditions whose adherents are comfortable with accepting teachings that cannot be proved on faith
...

Those who seem to think that refusal to believe unquestioningly in rebirth makes one not a Buddhist might want to reflect on whether they might be being sectarian.

Malcolm wrote:
It just makes your practice mundane, for this life only, that's all. When one dies, that's it, zip, one's ability to help sentient beings ends with brain death. It renders the bodhisattva vow meaningless, and so on. Since the Buddha clearly taught rebirth as crucial to his model of liberation, without which it is pointless, one is better off practicing some secular discipline since one cannot really say that one actually has confidence in the Buddha's teachings, since one rejects his own observation that rejecting rebirth is wrong view. It's like being a Catholic and rejecting the seven sacraments of the church. But this topic (rebirth is tired).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 30th, 2022 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I just read the other day that a living trust is almost always better than a will. May be something to look into.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, when you make out a will these days, the living trust part is included.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
Thanks JD

Anyone done any of the practical stuff yet?

You know: making a will, writing instructions on what you want done with your body after death, buying a funeral plan etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. I have a will, including a living will in case of some disability. I don't much care what happens to my body after I part with it. But it will certainly be cremated. Leaving it to rot in a box in the ground somewhere is an unnecessary expense and not a good use of land resources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:


reiun said:
If some teachings have not been proven factual, then they are theoretical.

Malcolm wrote:
So your standard of "factual" is the ordinary perception of common, deluded, sentient beings? Good to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I think I took us down a fruitless rabbit hole in my responses to Malcolm's answer. So let me rephrase:

So, anyone care to share what they are doing to prepare for their death (rather than their trip through the bardo)?

reiun said:
Being fully alive right now. Reincarnation, resurrection, the bardo, etc, are all just theories. As a lapsed Catholic, I've already had my fill.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, no, they are the teaching of the Buddha. You can doubt them if you like, but the Buddha definitely considered rejecting rebirth wrong view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I think I took us down a fruitless rabbit hole in my responses to Malcolm's answer. So let me rephrase:

So, anyone care to share what they are doing to prepare for their death (rather than their trip through the bardo)?

Malcolm wrote:
I meditate on luminosity when going to sleep. The process of falling asleep is like the process of dying.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Tao said:
For the moderador, my point was that NO master at all rejected the existence of external objects...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are some yogacāra masters that do, for example, Ratnakāraśanti. This is well known to those who study Buddhist tenet systems. What they do not reject is other minds, even though they completely reject an external world.

Yogacāra is complicated, it has several positions itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Compassion
Content:
Jokingfish said:
I wonder how to become more compassionate.

Malcolm wrote:
Reflect on suffering. Compassion is the wish to free oneself and all others from suffering. That's it. Nothing more. There is no secret to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I think you would share the view that enlightenment is done thing pre-existing that is realized rather than acquired, Malcolm. Why does TBism put the effort into experiencing that post mortem rather than here and now?

Malcolm wrote:
It is easier to realize buddhahood in the bardo than in this life since one has seven times more clarity.

reiun said:
Of course, our practice is on behalf of all beings, not excluding right now.

Malcolm wrote:
For a Mahāyanī, that is axiomatic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Ayu said:
Well, just let me hint to the fact that this topic (within the Gelug section) is neither about Kant nor Vasubandhu. It"s about Tsongkhapa's explanation.

Malcolm wrote:
Which depends on Vasubandhu, because how can he ignore the second most important yogacāra scholar?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Tao said:
The text seems to rebate your words:

>But not all idealists are Hegelian, absolute idealists. Among idealisms, Vasubandhu’s is more closely aligned with Kant’s, in that both assert that the objects of our experience are only representations, while both also affirm the reality of unknowable things in themselves.

I agree with Vasubandhu and the writer

And that's is not idealism at all, as affirms the reality of the external, but unknowable (I agree)

But their effects are here, and that's the conditioned nature of the yogacarins.

But thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
There are some masters in Vasubadhu's school, who take the extra step and reject an external world completely. They are known as false-aspectarian yogacārins. Ratnakāraśanti is the main scholar representing this sub-school. In any case, you need also to read this:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-indian-buddhism/#6.4


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Tao said:
> Vasubandhu proves the existence of independent mind streams, despite the absence of an external world.

Would you be so nice to reproduce here its argument?


Malcolm wrote:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vasubandhu/#DefAppOnl


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Tao said:
Question:

IS there ANY buddhist master that rejects all kind of external (to the mind) reality of any form? (aka pure idealism)

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you mean. There is one yogacara school that rejects all external objects, but no master rejects independent mind streams.

Tao said:
I cant see how one can reconcile both views, there're independent mind streams NOT connected?? (that's the only solution I can see for pure idealism but independent mind streams). That will lead to pure practical solipsism, so compassion keeps being sillyness... If they're independent and somehow connected by causal laws, then there's not pure idealism... as the causal laws break it... that causality will be the "objective" ground, the external... because is clear that the external arent objects in a conventional way, that's out of discussion for me. Not even the blue color exists out of my mind (energy waves are not blue).

I can see hinduism being pure idealism, but it makes nonsense in buddhism (or i'm unable to get it).

The fact is that compassion is believing in an objective/external suffering/dukkha so compassion itself is anti pure idealism. The Bodhisattva vow and path is itself is anti pure idealism. etc...

Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu proves the existence of independent mind streams, despite the absence of an external world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
. "Sravakayana" is ambiguous in that it is used within Mahayana as a Mahayana path.

Malcolm wrote:
No it isn’t. The motivation and goal of the shravakayana is not full buddhahood. It’s an inferior vehicle because the motivation and goal is inferior, hence it is also called Hinayana. All eighteen schools, including what is called Theravada, are included here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
I am not preparing to meet my end, i am preparing for the bardo and the next life.

Knotty Veneer said:
Certainly settling on a narrative to give shape to what we cannot know from this vantage point - what happens after the death of the body - is a necessary part of death preparation.

However, doesn't focussing one's practice efforts on results in the next life, or at least on some putative post-mortem experience, mean you miss out on this life? Is that POV any different from the Christian furiously storing up treasure in heaven?


Malcolm wrote:
We don’t practice for this life. And, I am not missing out on anything, I enjoy my life, family, sunsets, puppies, meals, etc.,, but since I know this isn’t it, I also prepare for the bardo and the next life. And no, I am not furiously storing up merit like a squirrel burying nuts before winter. That’s not what I mean. There are yogas one can do that prepare one for the experience of the time of death, the sounds, lights, and rays of the bardo of dharmata, or dealing with the bardo of becoming.

Since death is inevitable, like taxes, it’s best to prepare for it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Tsongkhapa on Yogacara and the existence of external objects?
Content:
Tao said:
Question:

IS there ANY buddhist master that rejects all kind of external (to the mind) reality of any form? (aka pure idealism)

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you mean. There is one yigacara school that rejects all external objects, but no master rejects independent mind streams.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:


haha said:
Please note it, he included Sautrantikas. How do you get their doctrinal positions, if you have not study their doctrinal source?

Malcolm wrote:
Here, Sautrantika refers to those who wrote commentaries on the Mahayana sutras directly, without adherence to either.Madhyamaka or Yogacara.

Queequeg said:
Was Vasubandhu originally Sautrantika? Is that the same group that I have read characterized as Hinayana and which he regretted propounding?

Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu, legend goes, regretted his initial hostility towards Mahayana. But there are some clues in the Koshabhasyam that he had already adopted Mahayana when he wrote the text.

As for term Sautrantika, all it actually means is followed of sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
After a series of deaths of loved ones and with retirement age now approaching within a few years, my mind turns towards using the time I have left to prepare for the inevitable.

I wonder what others are doing to meet their end?

Malcolm wrote:
I am not preparing to meet my end, i am preparing for the bardo and the next life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 6:52 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:


haha said:
Please note it, he included Sautrantikas. How do you get their doctrinal positions, if you have not study their doctrinal source?

Malcolm wrote:
Here, Sautrantika refers to those who wrote commentaries on the Mahayana sutras directly, without adherence to either.Madhyamaka or Yogacara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 6:49 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
" Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana texts? " also does not compute. Some Sravakayana texts are Mahayans sutras, aren't they?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Why? They were collated differently—the “I” in thus have I heard is not Ananda, but rather Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara, or Samantabhadra. They are also very extensive (vaipulya). They also teach the path to full awakening and unsurpassed full awakening, in contrast to the Hinayana result of arhatship. The Vasubandhu text is precisely about distinguishing Mahayana sutras from the Agamas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:
Queequeg said:
We need to clarify something that is getting jumbled in the above conversation. To paraphrase the OP's question - why did Buddhists end up preferring the the Mahayana Sutras and neglecting the Agamas. There are several shortcomings in the question. For one, not all present surviving lineages are Mahayana in nature, so clearly some Buddhists have not chosen Mahayana sutras to the exclusion of Sthavira texts. Mahayanis certainly privilege Mahayana texts over the Agamas, ie. Sravakayana in the Mahayana canons. But we're not really talking about Sravakayana as an actual historical and present reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure we are. You are ignoring the evidence, of which there is plenty.

The Kongtrul book, BTW.

kirtu said:
Which Kongtrul book, just to be clear ("The Treasury of Knowledge: Books Two, Three, and Four: Buddhism's Journey to Tibet" ?)?

Malcolm wrote:
The one called “Buddhist Ethics.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:
Queequeg said:
We need to clarify something that is getting jumbled in the above conversation. To paraphrase the OP's question - why did Buddhists end up preferring the the Mahayana Sutras and neglecting the Agamas. There are several shortcomings in the question. For one, not all present surviving lineages are Mahayana in nature, so clearly some Buddhists have not chosen Mahayana sutras to the exclusion of Sthavira texts. Mahayanis certainly privilege Mahayana texts over the Agamas, ie. Sravakayana in the Mahayana canons. But we're not really talking about Sravakayana as an actual historical and present reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure we are. You are ignoring the evidence, of which there is plenty.

The Kongtrul book, BTW.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:
Queequeg said:
Nagarjuna in his defense of Mahayana was quite adamant about Mahayana being a distinct path - and his rhetoric was sometimes as biting as any you might find on Dharmawheel in the heat of dispute.

Malcolm wrote:
If you think Nāgārjuna was biting, try Vasubandhu's Vyākhyāyukti. Vasubandhu's defense of Mahāyāna in the Vyākhyāyukti is even more biting than that of Nāgārjuna's. He criticizes the Śrāvaka vehicle for being incomplete. He even goes do far as to say that bodhisattvas should not cultivate the Śrāvaka Dharma, that it is inferior; that bodhisattvas must not become expert in it; and that bodhisattvas should maintain their distance from it because śrāvakas despise Mahāyāna. And because śravakas contest Mahāyāna, bodhisattvas should not live together with śrāvakas. Indeed, Atisha changed his residence every seven days in order to observe the samaya of not remaining with those with no faith in Mahāyāna for long than seven days.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 29th, 2022 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Mind associates with the zygote?
Content:
Miorita said:
Re. muni's post:
I find hard to believe the dance of consciousness around the father's nostrils. And the travel down in the testicles.
Then I never heard of elements of space. Maybe I heard of other elements being contained in space but not of building blocks of space.

Malcolm wrote:
It is specific to Kalacakra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 28th, 2022 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Is it an exclamation, something like 'that's just how it is'
Meaning that "‘i(t) cannot be made clear or obscured."

Malcolm wrote:
It is the symbolic method by which Garab Dorje Introduced Mañjuśrīmitra to the meaning of Dzogchen, Again from the Vajra Bridge:

Mañjuśrīmitra replied, “I want the buddhahood in a single lifetime which comes from an instant understanding of the meaning of dharmatā.”
Garab Dorje said, “You don’t understand it now?”

Manjuśrīmitra replied, “I am ignorant and I do not understand.”

After Garab Dorje placed his hand on Mañjuśrīmitra’s head, he blessed him with A Ha Ho ‘I.  A means nonarising. Ha means unceasing. Ho means nondual. ‘I means inseparability, the meaning of nonduality.

At the time of inseparability, Mañjuśrīmitra remained continuously in one session of samadhi for seven days in the state of the intrinsic sound of dharmatā without abiding in even a deep or subtle extreme of thought or word of whether there was inseparability or not. Like a lamp lifted in a dark house, as soon as he arose from that samadhi, the nature of the reality of things, the mind essence, dawned in his post-equoipoise mind and was realized vividly in his continuum as an unfabricated, intrinsic clarity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 28th, 2022 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Dating of Dharmapala (Virupa)
Content:


Kai lord said:
3) Lawapa, the mahasiddha, who brought the hevajra tantra in its first written form into this world, is the the third Indrabhuti. he would go on and taught a disciple with the same name....the fourth Indrabhuti.

Malcolm wrote:
Who makes this claim?

Jestun Drakpa Gyaltsen only lists three.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 28th, 2022 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Kai lord said:
Just sharing something from Jigme Lingpa that is relevant to the discussions at hand:
Individuals who have already familiarized themselves with the two accumulations to a great extent and have attained great strength in terms of
their knowledge and meditative absorption may traverse these paths in a more direct fashion. Such individuals are carried instantaneously from the
path of joining through the paths of seeing and cultivation. Through this, they proceed to the ultimate path. There are also some with exceedingly
powerful minds who move straight from the path of joining to the state of buddhahood. A tantra states:

Some perfect the five true kāyas in sixteen,
From the class of mastery itself,
While others progress from the state of the great seal
To the unexcelled state of Samantabhadra.

With this in mind, one might begin to wonder whether or not the second buddha, master Padmasambhava, attained realization gradually, as the examples above seem to indicate. That, however, would be a misunderstanding. As texts such as the Enlightenment of Vairocana and the Secret Sphere of the Moon point out:
In the joyful realm known as Akaniṣṭha
Buddhas become fully enlightened
And then manifest enlightenment here.

This was also the case with Buddha Śākyamuni. Although he became enlightened and perfected his own abandonment and realization an incalculable number of ages ago, he nevertheless manifested the twelve deeds in this realm.

Malcolm wrote:
The Vajra Bridge commentary contains Vairocana's last testament:

"After an illusory person
illusorily practices
illusory Dharmas
they attain illusory full buddhahood. 

Through the space-like practice
with the space-like mind essence,
space-like full buddhahood is attained.

The yoga is like the heart of the sun,
the meaning of the nonduality of A ha ho ‘i cannot be made clear or obscured."

Ācārya Vairocana spread his arms wide, and just as a the tip of a rainbow vanishes into space, he vanished into light and departed without physical remains.

So there are choices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
yagmort said:
it's about how things are presented nowadays.

Malcolm wrote:
Correction, this is how some teachers these days present things, but not all teachers. Not all teachers are teachers of Dzogchen, even in Nyingma.

But teachers of Dzogchen teach two things very consistently. Guru yoga is the main entry for Dzogchen practice. The main point of common ngondro is guru yoga. One does not need a fancy ngondro with lots of beautiful Dzogchen words. It is sufficient to just recite, for example, Lama la khyab su chi'o. Da la byin gyi lab tu sol. (།བླ་མ་ལ་ཁྱབས་སུ་མཆོའོ། །བདག་ལ་བྱིན་གྱིས་རླབས་ཏུ་གསོལ།): Guru, I go to you for refuge. Please empower me.

Other kinds of deity practices involving the two stages are not necessary. And even when it comes to the two stages, the approach is not like the approach in Geluk and Sakya, where you have to spend years developing visualizations in a very precise and detailed way. Merely thinking one is the deity, is, as Padmasambhava states in the Khandro Nyinthik, quite sufficient.

It is good to develop experience in the two stages, especially the completion stage, because Dzogchen has a similar body-based approach to awakening, where there is a clear connection between concepts and vāyu and so forth in the body.

But it is never the principle of Dzogchen teachings to construct an conceptual mandala in your mind to cut clinging to concepts about impure appearances, and dissolve this conceptual mandala in order to cut clinging to concepts about pure appearances.

However, like anything in the Dharma, it is good training and that is why people do it.

But Dzogchen practitioners do not take this as their path. This is why the Kun byed rgyal po says, for example:

The mandala of the five families of victors
is accomplished through the three samadhis and the five abhisambodhis.
Engaging in the mental effort of the samadhis and abhisambodhis
contradicts nonconceptual, effortless natural perfection.

All Lamas who have studied Longchenpa well know these things. Whether they choose to teach these things to their students is another matter. That's up to them and the karmic fortune of their students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Lingpupa said:
Although gradual entry is shown,
it is taught as a method for the confused.
How can this naturally perfected dharma
be entered gradually?
This, along with some other posts in this thread, raises a few questions.

1) If applying methods is an unnecessary distraction, isn't samsara itself an unnecessary distraction? Could we not just forget all the study and practice and be Buddhas without further ado? Or would we not be at risk of entering La-La Land?

Malcolm wrote:
Who said applying methods was a distraction? Dzogchen has it's own set of methods, set out very clearly in the original tantras of Dzogchen. For example, no one (but Sakyapas) freaks out if one states the simple fact that Sahaja Mahāudra is grol lam, the path of self-liberation, and does not involve the two stages, as opposed to the Six Dharmas of Naropa, which is thabs lam, and does involve the two stages.

But for some reason, when someone says that the two stages are not part of Dzogchen practice proper, everyone has a Chernobyl-level meltdown.

Dzogchen is not a gradual path. Just accept it and move on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
not even remotely.

Seeker12 said:
Actually quite exactly, as I’m fairly certain Shinran is actually a manifestation of Guru Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
You are tripping.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Lopon, what's your take on Mipham views on "other power", He has some treatises written on this subject, right?

Malcolm wrote:
No, he does not. Halkias’ over-interprets Mipham’s text.

Seeker12 said:
I’m too lazy to go back and find a specific quotation of yours to respond to, but I think it’s fair enough to say that this is in essence exactly the meaning of shinjin:

“In the path of Dzogchen, true realization can be awakened only through the blessing of the vidyadhara masters of the lineage, and so through the practice of heartfelt devotion and guru yoga. You do not need anything else.

If you possess that heartfelt devotion to the lama and the lineage, then you can, and will, receive the blessing of Dzogpachenpo. For when you are able to pray in this way with unwavering devotion, the wisdom of realization can arise in your mind, without your having to rely on any other factor as a path.”

Nyoshul Khen

Malcolm wrote:
not even remotely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Pure land sutras commentaries
Content:
curtstein said:
From these polemics comes the discussion of self-power and other-power.

Malcolm wrote:
No. this is not a discussion of self vs. other power.

This term, dngos po nus pa, is very common in Tibetan literature, particularly in commentaries of the pramāṇasamuccaya, etc. There no way that this term can be translated as "other power."

For example, in a commentary on the Hevara Tantra, the term dngos po'i nus pa (or dngos po'i stobs, which Mipham uses interchangeably in this text), vastubala, is defined as don byed, arthakriya, which Monier-Williams defines as "an action performed with a special purpose," and which we commonly translate as "effective" or "efficient," i.e. capable of producing a result.

For example, in the text under discussion, Mipham states that "Furthermore, when carefully examined by accomplishing mantra, the coarse body is purified, and based upon the attainment of the vidyādhara level of the desire realm, one is taken into the care of the excellent deity, and one is able (nus pa) to attain the complete result of [the paths of] training and no further training and also as it is said that the path of the Secret Mantra Vajrayāna will accomplish the result in union in the short lifetimes of the degenerate age, it should be known to be truly amazing, rendering the very important meaning easily obtainable through the power of [Secret Mantra Vajrayāna's] inconceivable effectiveness (dngos po'i nus pa)."

So, the actual discussion Mipham makes concerns the effectiveness of hearing the name of Amitābha, etc. He goes on to say that aspiration to be born in Sukhavati in Bhadracāryapranidhana is a supreme, easy method, etc.

In summary, in no way does Mipham make this term dngos po'i nus pa the centerpiece of his argument for the effectiveness of Pure Land practice. Nor is it in fact an argument for some kind of other power. Instead he contrasts the amazing effectiveness of Vajrayāna—understandable because he is a Dzogchen practitioner— with the effectiveness of Pure Land practice, and rebuts some people who argue that it is inappropriate to have doubts concerning the power of the aspiration of Amitabha and his gnosis. He also makes the point, just before the passage I cited above, " Therefore, from the power of the mutual connection between the fortunate sentient being and the gnosis of the Buddha, even the difficult path of totally purifying karma is accomplished with little difficulty."

The closest to an other power reading Mipham is this, " Such great qualities accomplished with little difficulty are to be seen as the power of the aspiration and gnosis of the Buddha, and do not only arise from the ripening of the power of each sentient being." But even here, the clause "not only" is crucial, because it means, as above, that Mipham sees birth in Sukhavati as one of mutual interaction between the faith of the sentient being on the one hand, and the power of the gnosis and aspiration of the Buddha. How so? He says, " Because of the immeasurable fortune and capacity of the person and the immeasurable emanations of the Buddha, by hearing the name of the Buddha one will be born in Sukhavati as soon as one departs this life. "

Cooke makes a serious error of translation here, "Mi pham admits, “[T]he strength of inconceivable other-power (dngos po’i nus pa) is something truly fantastical (ngo mtshar che).” As we can see above the passage is referring the effectiveness of the Vajrayāna path, not the Pure Land path.

So, really, once again, I have to reject the Halkias/Cooke argument that Mipham's text represents an example of the other power doctrine in Tibetan Buddhism. It is simply not present in the text. Just because someone writes an undergraduate paper claiming something is the case does not make it the case. People should use discretion when reviewing the works of Western scholars in Buddhist Academia. Part of their stock in trade is to make and then defend novel claims in order to publish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Usage of the word "Mind"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One, there is no passive witness in Buddhism ontologically separate from apparatus of cognition, as in the Samkhya model. The apparatus of cognition, citta and caittas, mind and mental factors, is all there is.

Tathāgatagarbha is not something separate from the mind, like purusha, it's a name for the mind's intrinsic purity when it is encased in afflictions; just as dharmakāya is the name for the mind when it has realized its own intrinsic purity through realizing emptiness.

Injrabodi said:
What do you suggest then is the original Sanskrit word that is being translated into English in the texts I presented?

Malcolm wrote:
Sems. citta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 1:41 AM
Title: Stand Your Ground
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“Saying that developing love and compassion is important and that we need these qualities does not mean that when faced with those who harm us we should timidly not respond and do nothing. In today’s society, where competition to be better than others is rife, there are
many instances where we have to stubbornly stand our ground. Moreover, with a pure motivation of love and kindness, and a standpoint of compassion, all for the benefit of others, we can, in practice, be hard-headed at those times where it is necessary to be so. This is a perfectly good perspective.”

HH Dalai Lama, Stages of the Path, Wisdom, 2022


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Usage of the word "Mind"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhists do not make a distinction between an eternal purusha/jnā and prakṛt, which is essentially inanimate, which is what you are referring to above. They reject the idea of purusha out of hand, and also the idea of prakṛt and the three gunas taught in Samkhya.

Injrabodi said:
This strikes me as completely unrelated to the topic at hand, as well as inaccurate.

Malcolm wrote:
It is entirely related and accurate. I studied the Samkhya Karikas with Srivatsa Ramaswami.

The Samkhya model of mind is entirely incompatible with the Buddhist model.

One, there is no passive witness in Buddhism ontologically separate from apparatus of cognition, as in the Samkhya model. The apparatus of cognition, citta and caittas, mind and mental factors, is all there is.

Tathāgatagarbha is not something separate from the mind, like purusha, it's a name for the mind's intrinsic purity when it is encased in afflictions; just as dharmakāya is the name for the mind when it has realized its own intrinsic purity through realizing emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: How to learn simple tsok practice
Content:


passel said:
Is there a simple way to do tsok that is either Prajnaparamita -based or ok to learn at a distance?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no tsok that is Prajñapāramita based, as that is sūtra.

You only need to do tsok at beginning and end of your retreat, and on special days. You can probably find a short Tsog at Lotsawa house.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Usage of the word "Mind"
Content:
Injrabodi said:
In a variety of Buddhist texts I've read, there seems to be an apparent failure to distinguish between the different faculties of mind.

Right now I'm reading a translation of A Precious Garland of the Supreme Path by Gampopa, with the commentary of Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche. Here is an example passage-


In this passage Khenpo Karthar claims that mind itself is the dharmakaya. Yet other Buddhist passages simply call the mind an organ of perception, the sixth specifically, following sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste.

My educational background is primarily Samkhya, in which the internal organs dubbed as a whole "antakarana" are divided into four categories- citti (consciousness), manas (grabber and arranger of sensory data, creating thoughts), ahamkara (the organ that produces egos/identities) and buddhi (faculty of discrimination).

It sounds like Buddhists are simply translating both pure consciousness itself (citta) and the small petty mind that creates thoughts both as "mind". Is my perception here accurate? If so, why are two different things translated with the same ambiguous word? It really seems like they're just trying to dumb this stuff down and they're muddling it up in the process.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhists do not make a distinction between an eternal purusha/jnā and prakṛt, which is essentially inanimate, which is what you are referring to above. They reject the idea of purusha out of hand, and also the idea of prakṛt and the three gunas taught in Samkhya.

They are completely different systems with different assumptions. To fully understand the buddhist model, you would have to read Abhidharma.

Here, when mind is referred to as dharmakātya, it is not mind, citta, the dharmin, but rather the mind essence, cittatā or citta dharmatā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


Passing By said:
Where does he put Anuyoga style Two Stages in this?

Also is that commentary to the Konchok Chidu available somewhere or is it still untranslated?

Malcolm wrote:
The eight vehicles from Anuyoga on down, have a reversible result. Vimalamitra states in the Blossoming Lotus, pg. 119:

When applied to the result, the common, reversible result is the result of the eight vehicles, from Anuyoga on down...

And on pp 180-181:

Since Anuyoga Tantra asserts the dhātu and pristine consciousness as ultimate based on words, it deviates from the meaning of making the result of Atiyoga (the sole unique bindu) into the path, the absolute perfection in which nothing is abandoned.

The KC texts are in manuscript. I may publish them after they have been revised and cleaned up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
kirtu said:
Polemic statements and speech are by their very nature simplistic and dishonest to truth or to history. This is a serious problem with many native English speakers and it's a problem that they often can't identify for themselves and when pointed out that they are spouting untruthful statements they react negatively (often). This kind of English rhetoric has unfortunately been adopted by many who marginally understand English and also don't know history or understand logic and this can cause a huge problem (which is why I usually try to speak to people in their own language if I can communicate in it - but really the problem is more that people who are less prone to manipulate others using false speech, untruthful speech are in the minority and English has only opened a door for the intentional dishonesty and manipulation to shine through - it's almost like a drug that makes everyone adopt the narrow view and rhetoric of a tiny village dweller and abandon critical speech and critical thinking).

Bristollad said:
What?

Malcolm wrote:
Kirt has lots of interesting theories about Anglophones and Anglo-American culture that he has shared over the years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 10:08 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


kirtu said:
But the greatest problem is that on the base level there are a large number of conservative-moderate D's who shut out even liberal-moderate D's.  And the liberal-moderate to progressive D's rarely directly criticize the D party on it's tendency to coalesce on conservative policy.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s called democracy.

kirtu said:
??? Democracy does not shut out alternative ideas.

Malcolm wrote:
Democracy by its nature is an adversarial system. In a democracy, when your ideas don’t get enough votes to be implemented as policy, that’s it, game over. it’s the sane in all democracies. That’s why democracy is government by the people, for the people. On the other hand, this is why a professional civil service is necessary for debated ideas to be implemented as policy.

For example, much of the initiatives Biden has passed, albeit, as half measures, were ideas that Sanders introduced into our discourse. He knows how things work, so he managed get his ideas voted into,policy.

Sometimes I think you mistake Anarchism, which is based on consensus decision making by committee, for democracy, which is based on voting for representatives at the state and federal level, and direct democracy at the town level, at least in New England towns. For example, for historical reasons, people living towns and cities in Virginia have far less of a role in passing ordinances, and so on, than do citizens of New England towns, where ordinances are voted on by the citizens of the town.

As  I pointed out to you before, our experience of democracy in the US is  strongly colored by where we were llive. New England has had a tradition of direct democracy since the Mayflower Compact. It’s isn’t paradise here, but New England has the strongest tradition of democracy in the US, and has always been a leader in progressive politics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 9:19 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


kirtu said:
But the greatest problem is that on the base level there are a large number of conservative-moderate D's who shut out even liberal-moderate D's.  And the liberal-moderate to progressive D's rarely directly criticize the D party on it's tendency to coalesce on conservative policy.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s called democracy. Change comes because people understand their civic duties, or they don’t. Democracy is not a centrally organized command and control system with clearly defined goals and objectives. It’s messy, uncertain, and it’s still the best thing we’ve got. The blue states are wealthy because we are liberal and progressive. We carry the weight for the red states, who all take more than they return to the Feds in taxes.

There are all kinds of ideas we can toss around, but the only thing that really matters, as Liz Cheney showed, that in a democracy, despite our disagreements, we are all committed to the peaceful transfer of power so that our votes actually matter. It is also,crucial,that liberal democracies team up. And some times this means we fight wars when our way of life is threatened. Mazzini, the first liberal internationalist, understood thus point. Liberal hegemony is “imperialistic” much in the same way that Rome was, defensively so. Liberal states do not necessarily live up to their internal ideals on the international stage, but on the other hand, the international stage is chaotic, and all state actors on that stage are acting out of self interest, and often erroneously, and clumsily. Liberal states also have to negotiate their way through myriad unfree states and autocracies. Trump proved that it is fatal to American interests to be seen to be withdrawing from our historic role as guarantors of the security of the liberal order. The fact that “more advanced” democracies are even able to survive in the EU is because the USA guarantees their security. Nothing proves this point more cogently than Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in 2014. The USA is the guarantor of the EU’s democracy. While the older EU states seem to have forgotten this point, the newer ones, like Estonia, Poland, and so on, are acutely aware of this fact. However imperfect our democracy may be, compared with fledgling democracies of the EU block, we back them up, and support their socioeconomic security. Without the US, Europe would have long ago descended into factional warfare and anarchy again. That’s just a bare fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
kirtu said:
I am not being uncivil with you at all.  This happened.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it didn't. I never rejected the historical facts around bussing and racism in Boston. I wouldn't. Why? Because I spent many years working around racist Boston Irish people. I know them far better than you. I had many friends in the gay community in Boston and many Black friends as well, since I played in Reggae bands and so on. I also know about the intense racism that Boston Irish people suffered at the hands of Anglo-whites during the pre-War II period, "Irish need not apply" and all that.  I lived around these communities for more than a decade. So, you are misremembering a conversation about cultural differences in New England compared with Virgina we once had, and my experience living in Cambridge and being raised in Western Massachusetts, and the socially progressive environment of these communities and the historical precedents for their progressive nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:


Nalanda said:
Was there any precedent where Mahayanists went from using both records to almost exclusively referring to Mahayana sutras alone?

Malcolm wrote:
Mahayana vows.

kirtu said:
Nope.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. It is one of the eight contradictions to wisdom: See Buddhist Ethics, pg. 190.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Gelug responses to these critiques of Tsongkhapa?
Content:


Lhundrub Jinpa said:
This part is blatantly wrong: " The understanding of emptiness presupposes the identification of such an object whose nonexistence is then demonstrated by the various Madhyamaka reasonings. This, for Tsong kha pa, is how to realize emptiness.

I disagree with it, because it has nothing to do with Tsongkhapa's view.

It is a straw-man,  a straw-Tsongkhapa's view.

Malcolm wrote:
You misunderstand what Duckworth is saying, he means to say "the identification of such an object [of negation]..." He is accurately portraying Tsongkhapa's stance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Gelug responses to these critiques of Tsongkhapa?
Content:



wei wu wei said:
Malcolm, would you mind if I share this in a FB conversation?

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all.

wei wu wei said:
Thanks. One clarification, though. You write, "...without something there cannot be nothing [emptiness]." It sounds like you're making emptiness and nothingness equivalent here?


Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is an absence, it is a nothing. For example, emptiness free from four extremes is the absence existence, nonexistence, both, and neither, both relatively and ultimately. Wherever there is an absence, there is nothing there, just as there is nothing in an empty cup, hence it is called "empty." But in order for there to be an empty cup, there has to be a cup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Gelug responses to these critiques of Tsongkhapa?
Content:


wei wu wei said:
All classical Madhyamaka scholars in Tibet accept emptiness as a non-affirming negation.
Does Mipham qualify as a "classical Madhyamaka scholar"?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and he accepts the non-affirming negation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 26th, 2022 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


kirtu said:
(1) I grew up in an actual American socialist health care delivery system: CHAMPUS, health-care of American military dependents (which was dismantled by capitalist free market fanatics in the 80's).  The only reason that American can't delivery health care for all (and housing for all) is that it doesn't believe that it can and thus decides not to even try.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. Not one of those free market fanatics.

kirtu said:
Even now the US gets 60%-80% of the way to a form of universal health care with some of Medicare and Medicaid (Medicare says it pays 80% of health care costs *BUT* 80% on an infinite amount of money for many medical procedures still results in an infinite bill, which is one of the areas where it's coverage fails).

Malcolm wrote:
Preaching to the choir.

kirtu said:
Like every polemic (ridiculous, logic-less screed intended to present a POV and not address issues honestly - and yes this applies to our otherwise great Tibetan teachers going back to at least 1000 CE) you ridiculously apply it to every facet of human life.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma applies to every facet of human life.


kirtu said:
I was just talking about health care delivery.  You can do it completely within capitalism (which I *DO* actually want to get rid of and replace with social democratic economics) by taking $X B from defense/eternal war funding.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is completely true. That's why I am a Berniecrat.



kirtu said:
Because of delusion, there will continue to be war, strife, exploitation, etc.
and here we have some truth (thanks for occasionally being honest - not talking in polemics - in these discussions).

Malcolm wrote:
I am always honest.


kirtu said:
That is a fact.  But as I said we can *REDUCE* war.  Biden could call the Saudis this afternoon and tell them to stop the war in Yemen.

Malcolm wrote:
The Saudis are not responsible for this war.  This war was started by Ansara Allah. There is a lot of history here, but the present conflict began when Ansara Allah, a.k.a, the Houthis, deposed the legitimate government of Yemen in 2015. In general, the aggressor in this conflict has consistently been Ansara Allah. It's a terrible situation, and between last year and this the US government has provided 1.2 billion dollars in humanitarian aid to Yemen, and 4.5 billion since 2016.

kirtu said:
At this point, supporting the Western project of liberal internationalism is the best bet for even remotely coming close to the objectives you seek.
We are likely closer on this than is obvious but "liberal" means different things to different people.  For me anything short of some degree of social democracy (so decidedly *NOT* the US D agenda - Canada starts getting minimally acceptable but it could still seriously improve) is unacceptable.

Malcolm wrote:
For me, liberal internationalism means different democracies work things out in their own way. Some countries may choose, like many European countries, to have coordinated market economies, favoring stability over growth. Others, like the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zealand, choose to have liberal market economies which favor growth over stability.

When it comes to issues like healthcare, such things should not be in the free market, because average citizens cannot make good choices concerning their health care. The same goes for education. These things should be subsidized by the government. Subsidized housing, especially for the growing population of internally displaced people in the United State, is smart economically, because it reduces a huge amount of overhead. Utah, for example, provides such housing to homeless people and has saved millions.

kirtu said:
These are secular problems, and they require secular solutions grounded a realistic assessment the deficits of authoritarianism and the benefits   of liberal democracy. However, imperfect liberal democracy may be in various its implementations in the US, Europe, and elsewhere, it is best system of national government humans have managed to come up with thus far, for as long as we have states.
Yeah, the minimal expression of that would be Iceland, Luxembourg or Austria (most of the time).  Something like the Netherlands or Denmark is more the ideal.

All five are far, far more advanced than anything in North America.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, we have a liberal market economy. Even with the New Deal and the Great Society, we were still a liberal market economy. Reagan damaged  Federal Government in myriad ways, and set the stage for the present instability we are experiencing. I personally think Biden is doing quite a good job, unacknowledged as it is, in trying restore the Federal Government to functioning order.  Much if what you find dissatisfactory about the US and our democracy has its roots in GOP vandalism. It's not the government that is the problem, per se, it is that fact that those on the "left" too easily allow their petty differences to divide them in the face of a very obvious will to power that drives the GOP, especially the neo-GOP, fascists who support Trump.

It's interesting to read Woodrow Wilson's reflections on Democracy in American, largely considered the architect modern liberal order, penned in 1901: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1901/03/democracy-and-efficiency/520041/. Much what he writes here remains true today, concerning our failure to completely live up to our ideals of justice, and so on, our insularity and self-centerdness as a nation, etc. However, the main point he is stressing here is the following:
Democracy is a principle with us, not a mere form of government. What we have blundered at is its new applications and details, its successful combination with efficiency and purity in governmental action. We tell ourselves that our partial failure in these things has been due to our absorption in the tasks of material growth; that our practical genius has spent itself upon wealth and the organization of industry. But it is to be suspected that there are other elements in the singular fact. We have supposed that there could be one way of efficiency for democratic governments, and another for monarchical. We have declined to provide ourselves with a professional civil service, because we deemed it undemocratic; we have made shift to do without a trained diplomatic and consular service, because we thought the training given by other governments to their foreign agents unnecessary in the case of affairs so simple and unsophisticated as the foreign relations of a democracy in politics and trade, transactions so frank, so open, so straightforward, interests so free from all touch of chicane or indirection; we have hesitated to put our presidents or governors or mayors into direct and responsible relations of leadership with our legislatures and councils in the making of laws and ordinances, because such a connection between lawmakers and executive officers seemed inconsistent with the theory of checks and balances whose realization in practice we understood Montesquieu to have proved essential to the maintenance of a free government. Our theory, in short, has paid as little heed to efficiency as our practice. It has been a theory of non-professionalism in public affairs; and in many great matters of public action non-professionalism is non-efficiency.

The reason I point this out, is that the GOP has, since Reagan, systematically dismantled the civil service, setting us back a century. We constantly hear now of how people campaign on the promise they are not "professional" politicians, that their ignorance of how our government works is a virtue for which we should laud them, and indeed, is often their sole credential for running for office, along with their fetish for guns.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
cloudburst said:
poor guy, sounds seriously distracted

Malcolm wrote:
You don't understand what this means since you are not a Dzogchen practitioner: From the Konchog Chidu cycle's Sumeru Commentary:

The Great Array Tantra states:

Also all the vehicles taught by myself, 
are means of entering ati that is beyond mind;
if one does not possess the meaning that is beyond mind, 
one will enter samsara from the vehicles.


And:

The Ornamental Appearance of Pristine Consciousness Tantra states:

Although gradual entry is shown, 
it is taught as a method for the confused. 
How can this naturally perfected dharma
be entered gradually?

Generation and completion stage practices are part of the path of transformaation. Dzogchen is not part of the path of transformation. As Vimalamitra points out in the Tantra Without Syllables commentary:

There is no connate cause in vidyā. Since it has always self-appeared without being created by a cause, there is no need in the present to generate that appearance. Since it has always been intrinsically complete, where can there be a generation-stage
seed syllable? Since that is not understood, outer and inner mantra are deviations, from Mahāyoga on down...

Since there is no effort of emanating and gathering the assembly of syllables in my self-liberated appearance, there is no need for a generation stage, like [there is no need for] the syllables...
Since Mahāyoga Tantra asserts that the outer universe is the celestial mansion and the inhabitants are deities in the utterly pure relative based on words, it deviates from the transcendent state of the self-liberation of the appearances of the six relaxed senses.

So you know, maybe you should stay in your lane, where you actually know what you are talking about, i.e. Geluk systems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
sour grapes.

Nemo said:
"I don't care how many brown people we starve or blow up I just want some health care."
Classy

kirtu said:
And even then, not health care for all.

We can change objectives slightly and alleviate poverty in the US and much of the world as well as a reduction in war.

Malcolm wrote:
Two facts stand in the way: karma and delusion.

The very doctrine of karma disallows "fairness." Fairness is an ideal, of course, because we want everyone to have the same opportunities, but realistically, the outcomes of karma dictate wealth, poverty, high status, low status, longevity, and health, and those are never "fair.

Because of delusion, there will continue to be war, strife, exploitation, etc.

At this point, supporting the Western project of liberal internationalism is the best bet for even remotely coming close to the objectives you seek. These are secular problems, and they require secular solutions grounded a realistic assessment the deficits of authoritarianism and the benefits   of liberal democracy. However, imperfect liberal democracy may be in various its implementations in the US, Europe, and elsewhere, it is best system of national government humans have managed to come up with thus far, for as long as we have states. Would it be nice to live in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek universe, with no money, no poverty, and so on, based on technological marvels—sure. Do we have this now? No. So, in the mean time the best hope for for the world is liberal internationalism, as Ikenberry outlines:
Liberal internationalism can be understood as a tradition of order building that emerged with the rise and spread of liberal states, and its ideas and agendas have been shaped and reshaped as these countries have grappled with the great forces of modernity. The essential goals of liberal order building have not changed: creating an environment—a sort of cooperative ecosystem—in which liberal democracies can operate by providing tools and capacities for their governments to manage economic and security interdependence, balance their often conflicting values and principles, and secure rights and protections for their societies. Liberal internationalism aims to foster international order in a way that protects and facilitates the security, welfare, and progress of liberal democracy. It is best understood as an ongoing project to make the world safe for democracy...If liberal internationalism is to remain relevant in the twenty-first century, it must return to its roots. It must define itself less as a grand vision of a global march toward an ideal society, and more as a pragmatic, reform-oriented approach to making liberal democracies safe. This reformist view sets liberal internationalism apart from other internationalist traditions.
Ikenberry, G. John. A World Safe for Democracy . Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


Nemo said:
"I don't care how many brown people we starve or blow up I just want some health care."
Classy

Malcolm wrote:
More sour grapes.

Nemo said:
And what are those sour grapes about Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
Your hyperbole discredits any valid points you might make, which is why your rhetoric is so eminently ignorable since it is grounded only in biliousness. Unlike you, I think the Western Hegemony, backed by US economic and military power, is a net positive for the world, despite its flaws. You can disagree if you choose to. You simply choose to ignore the overall benefits of liberal internationalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Lopon, what's your take on Mipham views on "other power", He has some treatises written on this subject, right?

Malcolm wrote:
No, he does not. Halkias’ over-interprets Mipham’s text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 1:03 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


Nemo said:
And the Dems definitely lesser evil. Is pretending evil is not evil right view? Murder is worse than rape so the rapists are the good guys?

Malcolm wrote:
sour grapes.

Nemo said:
"I don't care how many brown people we starve or blow up I just want some health care."
Classy

Malcolm wrote:
More sour grapes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 12:59 PM
Title: Re: Was there any precedent to Buddhists switching its focus to Mahayana Sutras and almost neglecting the Sravakayana te
Content:


Nalanda said:
Was there any precedent where Mahayanists went from using both records to almost exclusively referring to Mahayana sutras alone?

Malcolm wrote:
Mahayana vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


cloudburst said:
Beautiful quotation. Mipham is another example of someone who engaged in two stages practice for years in retreat!

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, people do that until,they realize it isn’t necessary at all, and in fact a distraction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:



KristenM said:
Side question, is labeling things, nations, or people “evil” actually right view? I’m just wondering if that’s an appropriate term for Buddhists to use. I somehow don’t think so.

Malcolm wrote:
The GOP? Definitely evil.

Nemo said:
And the Dems definitely lesser evil. Is pretending evil is not evil right view? Murder is worse than rape so the rapists are the good guys?

Malcolm wrote:
sour grapes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen teachings do not negate rebirth. In fact, Dzogchen teachings argue that even for people who cannot practice Dzogchen teachings very much, birth in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield (what you are calling a fulfilled land) is guaranteed, provided they have the experience of direct perception of their own nature or at least do some of the Dzogchen preliminary practices as they are able.

Zhen Li said:
I agree with what you are saying, since direct perception of one's own nature is a given after birth in Sukhāvatī. One small correction is that the nirmaṇakāya buddha field is the transformed land.

Malcolm wrote:
No, a natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafield is not a transformed buddhafield, that's why it is called "natural." Its a terminological difference you won't encounter outside of Dzogchen teachings.

And the experience of direct perception is not something which requires effort beyond being introduced to it.
This is what Shinran means by Jinen, natural or spontaneous working. [/quote]

That's not what I am referring to. This is all still analytical, on the level of mind.
The obstacle here is indulging in the erroneous rhetoric that beings of this age are so benighted as to be unable to do any other than hope for a birth in Sukhavati.
This is not in error, but is supported both by scripture and experience. The quote you provided does not contradict this point. It remains a reasonable and realistic statement that is of benefit to all beings because it will bring them beyond the six realms at the very least.
Yes, and I have my scriptures which point out that at the end of the this eon, when life spans are ten years, the only means of liberation available before the Dharma vanishes will be Dzogchen teachings. The definitive of the lower is the provisional of the higher.  In any case, all this Mappo business is very sketchy, and Dogen rejected it completely. I am with Dogen on this one.

And you forgot, in Dzogchen, it is stated that there is no liberation outside the six realms, just as there are no buddhas outside sentient beings.
You've shared that you didn't feel your ten years of Soto practice was fruitful. I am not saying this to use this against you, but with sympathy. I also don't quite believe you. Dogen's writings are among the closest expression in Japanese thought to Dzogchen teachings.
I practiced in Linji, and I am not going to badmouth them. It's part of one path. Dogen's writings are closer to Shinran than Linji.
My mistake. Dogen is not a gradualist, like Rinzai schools seem to be.
So it is often best not to engage in inter-sectarian dialogue, though that would be a shame since I enjoy it and it helps me clarify my own understanding.
I was just responding to some of your claims, which you constantly withdraw or modify, because you know they cannot bear analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Yes but from what I can make out you’re trying to write off the Pure Land

Malcolm wrote:
That is not the case. I am objecting to some of Zhan Li's interpretations of the Pure Land  Doctrine, what it means in relation to how he is interpreting things, especially in light of his acceptance of the idea of original liberation.

Personally, I quite enjoyed reading Honen and Shinran, though in the latter's case, I think he is a little pessimistic. As far as Pure land masters go, Ippen has a special place in my heart. One passage by Honen always struck me was his observation that he could never visualize a leaf in Sukhavati that was as perfect as the one he held in his hand on Hiei-zan. This is a profound statement on the difference between concepts and direct perceptions. And too, my favorite Amitabha image is at Eikando, which I visited in 1986:

http://www.eikando.or.jp/mobile_en/mb_mikaeriamida_en.html

Naturally, just as some people think everything is better with weed, I think everything is better with Dzogchen, but that is admittedly my bias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
I appreciate this, and maybe it's the Vimalakirti Dharma Gate too. The Sukhāvatī Dharma Gate does require birth,

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen teachings do not negate rebirth. In fact, Dzogchen teachings argue that even for people who cannot practice Dzogchen teachings very much, birth in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield (what you are calling a fulfilled land) is guaranteed, provided they have the experience of direct perception of their own nature or at least do some of the Dzogchen preliminary practices as they are able.

And the experience of direct perception is not something which requires effort beyond being introduced to it. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it. The main difference is that one attains full buddhahood in these buddhafields within five hundred human years, not the millions of years one is normally assigned to spend in a given pure buddhafield. Otherwise, most Dzogchen practitioners attain buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā, which comes between the bardo of death and the bardo of rebirth.


Zhen Li said:
While if one were to attain buddhahood here and now one would not be separate from Sukhāvatī, focusing on attaining birth through Nembutsu or after receiving Shinjin does not necessarily result in such a realisation—at least intellectually.

Malcolm wrote:
You've defined shinjin above as dharmakāya. One cannot receive something which is innate, unless you were exaggerating, and wish to retract that statement. Dharmakāya is not something that can be given, it is not substantial.

Zhen Li said:
One reason why a traditional Buddhist might be skeptical of Dzogchen is that it comes across a lot like secular Buddhism or modernism. They both have many people who claim to have attained the goal of the path without any of the marks or signs of buddhahood, and dismissing all material that seems provisional as useless or a distraction.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no goal in Dzogchen, there is no where to go. The state of liberation is one's primordial state, it is one's start point. One simple has to recognize this and cultivate that. All one needs to do is be directly introduced to it, and develop confidence in that. There is an allegory in the Dzogchen tantras about the gem Amṛta, which one only recognizes one has lost when it has been found:

This precious gem, Amṛta,
which has been my gem,
has been lost since beginningless time.
Because of that, there was aimless wandering in suffering.
That great gem, Amṛta,
cannot be found through searching,
but is realized to be the vidyā self-originating
from oneself.

The precious gem, Amṛta,
is not noticed when lost; it is noticed when found.
There is no substantial sign when it is lost;
when it is found, radiant joy is possessed.
Since it is realized to be the same state,
there is no difference between when it is found and when it
is lost.

If one has some condition such as illness, etc., which makes developing your knowledge and understanding of the teachings difficult, Dzogchen has many methods for addressing these issues.

Now, Dzogchen is traditional Buddhism. So a traditional buddhist should not be skeptical of it. Why? Because it is fruit of all that one could wish for. As for the notion that buddahood is defined by external signs such as a retractable penis and so forth, we know very well that the Chan tradition rejects this, and the Dzogchen tradition also rejects this. Why? Because this is rejected by the Vajracchedika, which is the common source both traditions use to reject this idea. Unlike the Chan tradition however, the Dzogchen tradition maintains that the signs are manifest from their potential internally, and that at the time of death, when attaining liberation after the confines of the body have been broken, one manifests them all, just a garuda hatches with all abilities fully present, or a lion cub is born with the same. Since there is no occasion for rebirth after rebirth where such external signs can manifest, their potential is developed without being externally visible due to the a) the rapidity of the path and b) the fact that these signs are a naturally perfected potential as kāyas and gnoses in our primordial state form the beginning. They only require secondary conditions to manifest, just as a crystal produces a band of color when exposed to sunbeams but otherwise seems colorless and clear. Our body is that crystal, and these kāyas and gnoses already exist in our body as a potential. This is why tantras like Hevajra state, "Great gnosis exists in the body, but is not of the body." Also the potential for all of samsara and nirvana exist in our body as well, including the potential for all buddhafields, pure and impure alike. If we did not have the potential for Sukhavati as a part of our basis, our continuum, we could never take rebirth there, shinjin or not.

Zhen Li said:
Admittedly, from the ultimate perspective, we can dismiss all else as useless. However, a Buddha knows the inclinations of beings and so manifests according to the karmic inclinations of the sentient being. Upāya is the compassionate working of the Buddha, and I would like to know why Dzogchen dismisses it.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen does not dismiss them. You forgot, above, I mentioned there is a direct approach and an indirect approach in Dzogchen teachings.

Zhen Li said:
The advantage of Pure Land, as I see it, is the embracing of upāya. This is why Hōnen dismissed the typical objection (which you also raised) that the intellectual should not debase himself by practicing Pure Land

Malcolm wrote:
There is no problem practicing Pure Land Buddhism, it is not an obstacle to practicing Dzogchen teachings. In fact, practicing Dzogchen teachings will make Pure Land practice more effective, just as it makes Vajrayāna practice more effective or even simple śamatha and vipaśyanā. One does not have to wait to see buddhafields at death, or in the next life. One can have a direct glimpse of them in this life, since a buddhafield is nothing other than the potential of gnoses that already exists within oneself. The obstacle here is indulging in the erroneous rhetoric that beings of this age are so benighted as to be unable to do any other than hope for a birth in Sukhavati. Again, the Buddha states:

“The purity of his buddhafield reflects the purity of living beings; the purity of the living beings reflects the purity of his gnosis; the purity of his gnosis reflects the purity of his doctrine; the purity of his doctrine reflects the purity of his transcendental practice; and the purity of his transcendental practice reflects the purity of his own mind."

The appearances of Sukhavati are pure only in so far as the person's vision is pure. Since a person's mind is innately pure, the realization of that original purity is sufficient for entering all buddhafields at the same time everywhere without impediment.

Zhen Li said:
—rather, it is a method for the attainment of buddhahood by all.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it isn't. Like all dharma paths, one has to cultivate roots of merit in the past to even meet the śrāvaka dharma let alone Mahāyāna, so slogans like "it is the path for everyone" are at base hollow. "Soteriological" realism suggests that only Buddhists, who of their own accord, have entered Mahāyāna are going to meet Pure Land, Dzogchen, Chan, Vajrayāna, etc. In general, Buddhadharma only only for the karmically fortunate, hence the importance of reflecting on the preciousness of a human birth with eight freedoms and ten endowments.

Zhen Li said:
Despite this, people of different karma cannot be made to see things the same way, which is why I post this in the Pure Land forum.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not talking to all people, I am talking to you. You are a learned scholar, but, and I don't mean this to be disrespectful, you have built a conceptual box for yourself. You have become expert in some dogmas which vitiate the need for you to take responsibility for your own liberation in this life. You've shared that you didn't feel your ten years of Soto practice was fruitful. I am not saying this to use this against you, but with sympathy. I also don't quite believe you. Dogen's writings are among the closest expression in Japanese thought to Dzogchen teachings.

You claim Pure Land practice is for simple people without capacity, but in Dzogchen teachings we say, "One hundred butchers will attain liberation faster than a learned scholar" because of this point of direct perception. Shabkar states in his famed text, The Soaring Garuda (not the same as the text I previously quoted):

If this [Great Perfection] is practiced, all [fortunate ones] will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharp and dull capacity.
If one practices, even a cowherd will be liberated.
If one understands the significance of the luminosity of one’s mind through a direct perception,
the rhetoric of scholars is not necessary here;
just as when one eats sugar,
there  is no need for an explanation of the taste of sugar.
Without understanding this, even a paṇḍita will be deluded.
Even if one is skilled in all the explanations of the nine vehicles,
it is like telling a story of a distant place one has not seen;
one is even further from the stage of buddhahood than heaven is from the earth.

We like books, we think they provide a firm foundation, but reality, relying overly much on textual authority is like sailing a boat on a river, ignorant of where the sand banks are.

Anyway, enough. Good luck.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
The Pure Land Teaching is and always will be extremely important in this degenerate age doesn’t matter what is debated here on Dharmawheel

Malcolm wrote:
All dharma teachings are important in this degenerate age.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Six month wrap,up,thread. Tl;dr, Russia is an incompetent has been. Not a superpower.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 6:50 PM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:





Malcolm wrote:
Also, when you say "cognizant aspect" what is it do you mean, since cognizant, apparent and conscious all sound rather synonymous?
The commentary to String of Pearls Tantra explicitly identifies thugs rje aka rtsal as the instantiation of one's mind. This is also the case when Longchenpa distinguishes rtsal and rol pa in his presentation of bodhicitta, rtsal and rolpa, where rstal is described as the mirror in which the subject and objects of rol pa appear, where he also dismisses the idea that outer objects do not exist, distinguishing appearances from apparent objects.

In addition there are other references to this in these commentaries that I mention. I prefer to follow what the ancient dzogchen commentaries describe.

Passing By said:
So, basically in the 17 Tantras system, tsal corresponds to thukje which is essentially one's present state while rolpa would be the term used to refer to manifest objects?
That is not how these things are presented in the commentaries of the seventeen tantras.
Yeah, looks like in ZZNG, tsal = rolpa according to Nyingma although I'm still not sure if in both schools, the meaning of "nature/clarity" differs. If you don't mind me asking, you have received ZZNG before right? Is the meaning different?
There is a serious amount of confusion about this point among western translators, who unintentionally conflate sarma terminology with Nyingma terminology. However, there is a text called Eighty Axioms which clearly describes the distinction between gsal and rig.
I practice both streams of Dzogchen and it would be very helpful if it was more obvious whether a lama in Bon was referring to the same thing as that Nyingma lama said or whether you have to forget what each of them said when you are following the other's teachings. Unfortunately, it looks like even the Bon terminology differs in meaning from that of the 17 Tantras even if words are the same


Malcolm wrote:
The meaning of the nature is different between sems sde and man ngag sde. In sem sde, ngo bo is  rang bzhin and vice versa, i.e rang bzhin stong pa, ngo no gsal ba.

I have received some teaching on ZZNG, but have not examined this issue.

But in general, gsal ba is not the cognizant aspect. Stong, gal, and rig are inseparable, of course, but rig is related to nirmanakaya, whereas the other two are related to dharmakaya and sambhogakaya respectively,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 6:41 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Nemo said:
Dems drank the Rep Kool Aid. They also divorced reality;

-Biden is the new FDR
-Covid is over
-Inflation was caused by $1400 checks
-US sending billions to Ukraine to preserve democracy
-More cops make us safer
-Liz & Dick Cheney are resistance heroes
-The IRA is the most significant climate policy in history
-The US is the world's leading defender of Freedom of the Press

Question mainstream politics and they'll tell you to support the lesser evil. Question capitalism and they'll say it's better than any other system. Question the empire and they'll say it's better the US rules us than risk anyone else. It's all lesser evilism, in support of evil.

Maybe you are just evil?

kirtu said:
100%.  Exactly!

KristenM said:
Side question, is labeling things, nations, or people “evil” actually right view? I’m just wondering if that’s an appropriate term for Buddhists to use. I somehow don’t think so.

Malcolm wrote:
The GOP? Definitely evil.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 11:09 AM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:


Passing By said:
The way I heard it explained in most detail (Zhang Zhung Nyengyud, but I don't think Bon and Nyingma differ much with respect to these three aspects of the Base) is that thugs rje (usually just called tsal in ZZNG) corresponds to the myriad manifestations and objects of perception, experience, thoughts etc, while salwa refers to  the ability for stuff to appear in general in a spontaneous, naturally perfected manner ie the most fundamental conscious aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not how these things are presented in the commentaries of the seventeen tantras.

Passing By said:
Is that the way Nyingma understands it also? (I heard Nyingma lamas describe salwa as the knowing presence; you described it above as the apparent aspect)

Malcolm wrote:
There is a serious amount of confusion about this point among western translators, who unintentionally conflate sarma terminology with Nyingma terminology. However, there is a text called Eighty Axioms which clearly describes the distinction between gsal and rig.

Passing By said:
Also, when you say "cognizant aspect" what is it do you mean, since cognizant, apparent and conscious all sound rather synonymous?

Malcolm wrote:
The commentary to String of Pearls Tantra explicitly identifies thugs rje aka rtsal as the instantiation of one's mind. This is also the case when Longchenpa distinguishes rtsal and rol pa in his presentation of bodhicitta, rtsal and rolpa, where rstal is described as the mirror in which the subject and objects of rol pa appear, where he also dismisses the idea that outer objects do not exist, distinguishing appearances from apparent objects.

In addition there are other references to this in these commentaries that I mention. I prefer to follow what the ancient dzogchen commentaries describe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The kindest thing is to help them eliminate clinging from the root in this life, then they do not have to wait for some putative liberation later on.

Astus said:
“I will move the Western [Paradise] for you in an instant, so you will be able to see it right in front of you. ... the very form-bodies of people in this world are the city walls [of the Pure Land]. Your eyes, ears, nose, and tongue are the gates [of the Pure Land]. Externally, you have five gates, and within is the gate of the sensory mind. The mind is the ground, and the nature is the king. The king resides on the mind-ground, and the nature exists just as a king exists. When the nature goes, the king is absent.When the nature is present, the body and mind continue. When the nature departs, the body disintegrates. ‘Buddha’ acts within the nature—don’t look for it outside your bodies! When one is deluded as to the self-nature, one is a sentient being, but when one realizes the self-nature, one is a buddha. ... By illuminating the self-nature within, the three poisons are eliminated, and all the transgressions [leading to] the hells are dissolved in an instant. Clearly penetrating within and without, it is no different from the Western [Paradise]. If you do not cultivate in this fashion, how could you ever arrive there?”
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 39-40)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
That knowledge also doesn't make me a Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is the difference between concepts (vikalpa) and direct perception (pratyakṣa). Dzogchen teachings assert even commoners can directly perceive their buddhanature in this life, right now, today, in this moment. They just need instruction, and that needs to be gained in person.

Zhen Li said:
We are deluded, so we need to undergo birth...

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. Of course, regarding people who do not have the fortune of meeting Buddhadharma, let alone the vehicle beyond cause and result...well, to paraphrase Rick James, "Samsara is a hell of a drug."

Zhen Li said:
But it's always like the analogy of the birds in the Nirvāṇa Sūtra: you can see it out the corner of your eye, but not fully make it out in all its glory.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends not on a text, but what upadeśa one has received.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Advertising to sentient beings that they must put off their liberation for birth in a pure land is a disservice to sentient beings.

Zhen Li said:
This is not "putting off" liberation, it is attaining its assurance here and now.

Malcolm wrote:
It is putting it off, "This will happen later, so I can just continue to be deluded."


You wrap yourself in numerous contradictions by claiming on the one hand, that on the one hand mysterious blessings of Amitabha transcend time, but that sentient beings have to be open to his grace and on the other hand that buddhas and bodhisattvas are inactive.
You list these things but they are not contradictory.
They are absolutely contradictory.
Although you assert original buddhahood, you insist there are ordinary sentient beings
This is foundational to Mahāyāna sūtra discourse.
So if it's a dogma, you have to accept it? Come on, you are much smarter than that.
You do not actually accept original liberation, because if you did, you would automatically accept that Amitabha and sentients beings are nondual and that there is no Sukhavati that is some other dimension than these three realms
I never denied it.
You never addressed it. You still claim there is some birth somewhere at some later time, using death as the demarcation between this life and birth in a Sukhavati somewhere.

In your shinjin, there is still a goal to attain, even though this is clearly a deviation.
Shinjin is itself Dharmakāya.
It's still a goal, in your rhetoric. It is something you have to receive, not something which is already innate.

Your baseline assumption is that there is a subject who is obscured and an obscuration to purify; someone to take birth, and a place to take birth, thus your view is contaminated by holding the three spheres to be existent. Likewise, with your view of merit transfer from Amitabha, there is someone transferring merit, merit, and a recipient of merit. But in reality this not so, as the Vajracchedika points out.
That is about transformation and not fulfilled birth.
Meaningless distinction.

In this degenerate age, the only effective path is the path of direct perception. We do not have time to mess around with theories of sūtra and mantra, accumulation and purification, birth, cause and result, etc. These are all just proliferation.
The issue is that you are overestimating people's capacities to attain direct perception. In reality people have different temperments, different tendencies and characters, and karmic roots. To give people something on which to cling, which ends up at the same end, is the most compassionate and approachable method.
That is telling people who are in a flash flood they should grasp at clumps of grass on the shore. I have the opposite opinion: there is no difference between sharp and dull in capacity, only a difference in karmic fortune.

Most sentient beings at present do not not have the karmic fortune to meet Buddhadharma, let alone Dzogchen teachings.

Liberation only comes about through recognizing one's primordial state, even in Sukhavati. Why wait?

People's clinging is exactly the cause of their deviations on the path. The kindest thing is to help them eliminate clinging from the root in this life, then they do not have to wait for some putative liberation later on.
If the foundational objection to the OP was about the speed of attainment of nirvāṇa upon birth, then surely having to wait until death for realisation, let alone longer after birth, is hardly objectionable. The path of birth in Amitābha's land is not the teaching of the Vimalakīrti sūtra—it does involve death and birth.
Above you claim to accept the fact that these three realms and Sukhavati are nondual. If this is the case, we are already in Sukhavati, therefore, all your distinctions between transformed birth, fufilled birth, and so on are meaningless. You have built yourself a cage, it may be made of gold, but it is still a cage.

You might be content with a promise made in a book. Not all of us are content with promises we read in books.
The Sukhāvatī Dharma is just an honest assessment of our condition here and now, and an admission that if we cannot do it here, we can do it there without fail.
Your assessment cannot escape being based in the causal Mahāyāna path since it derives from those sūtras, and the deviations of those teachings apply to your path.
Anyway, you have my interest and I will look more into this Soaring Garuda.
Anytime I can interest people in Dzogchen teachings, I am glad. And of course, the nice thing about Dzogchen teachings is that one does not have to change any practice one is doing, including Nembutsu. On the other hand, one's understanding of one's practice is sure to be radically altered when it becomes free of all goals, and so on, and is actually grounded in the fact of primordial buddhahood as a fact of direct perception, rather than a theory of the same.

All afflictions are just pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thus, there is no basis for your claim which distinguishes buddhas and commoners. That distinction is false and cannot be established.

Zhen Li said:
I do not disagree with any of the quotes you provide, but clearly there is a need for upāya. Even you admit that there are provisional texts. If so, why are there beings who need provisional texts? Why are there those who don't realise they are buddhas?

Malcolm wrote:
I provided the answer above already: sentient beings are sentient beings because they delude themselves, they are not deluded by another, and therefore, their liberation can never be other-dependent.

Zhen Li said:
liberation requires compassionate means

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation requires recognition that one's mind is already dharmatā, and that everything has always been in a state of uniformity. The Soaring Garuda states:

The nature of primordial buddhahood exists as direct perception,
but like the example of the form of a shadow, conceptuality about that arises.

There is only one means to liberation, everything else is a deviation:

The bliss of perfection free of activities is accepted because there is no desire.

The commentary continues:

Since the undeceived method is free from activities through the topics of the perfections and does not accept anything, not wishing to attain freedom because suffering is not perceived is the sublime method of attaining freedom.

The wish of someone, who is already liberated, for liberation is itself a deviation. Liberation is not an attainment, it is a recognition. Obscurations are not substantial. As it is said by Nāgārjuna and others:

Here, there is nothing to add, 
nor is there something to remove. 
Correctly see the real. 
Seeing the real is liberation.

Advertising to sentient beings that they must put off their liberation for birth in a pure land is a disservice to sentient beings. You wrap yourself in numerous contradictions by claiming on the one hand, that on the one hand mysterious blessings of Amitabha transcend time, but that sentient beings have to be open to his grace and on the other hand that buddhas and bodhisattvas are inactive. Vajrasattva states:

The three times are single, undifferentiated, 
not arisen from the beginning, without earlier and later, 
due to being single because of being pervaded by dharmakāya, 
the primordial nature of greatness abides because of the greatness.

The Soaring Garuda states:

There are no phenomena to add because one kāya pervades all.


Although you assert original buddhahood, you insist there are ordinary sentient beings; you make erroneous distinctions between the two truths and so on.  You do not actually accept original liberation, because if you did, you would automatically accept that Amitabha and sentients beings are nondual and that there is no Sukhavati that is some other dimension than these three realms. The Soaring Garuda again:

Since there is no object to attain, there is nothing other than the three realms.

Because the three realms themselves have attained buddhahood already in the essence of natural perfection, it is ascertained that a result generated by a cause is not a separate object to be attained. 

Even relying on the tenth bhumi is an obstruction to awakening. 

The seeking that relies on the path method of the tenth bhumi of the causal bodhisattvas and the wish to attain by relying on the tenth stage of outer, inner and secret secret mantra does not see the place that is free from being traversed. 

The extremely rapid wisdom is free from all thoughts.

That being the case, because the self-originated wisdom, the basis of everything, is free from gradual progression, it is more rapid because of emphasizing nonprogression through mere seeing. Since that is free from all goal-oriented apprehension of objects and apprehending subjects, it is very special because there is no obscuration to purify.

In your shinjin, there is still a goal to attain, even though this is clearly a deviation. Your baseline assumption is that there is a subject who is obscured and an obscuration to purify; someone to take birth, and a place to take birth, thus your view is contaminated by holding the three spheres to be existent. Likewise, with your view of merit transfer from Amitabha, there is someone transferring merit, merit, and a recipient of merit. But in reality this not so, as the Vajracchedika points out.

This does not apply only to you, this applies to all paths of cause and result. People don't need to do anything other than relax and allow their obscurations to vanish, just as turbid water becomes clear when the particulate settles out. And obscurations are no different than dharmatā, they emerge from dharmatā and vanish into dharmatā just as clouds emerge from the sky and vanish into the sky or waves in the ocean, without coming or going anywhere, they have no substantial nature.

Honestly, you resemble the guy who carries the oar, even though you left the boat at the bank. And since there is no other shore in reality, you don't even need a boat. All you need to do is discover your own nature and then help others see their own.

If one accepts original liberation, encouraging people to enter paths of cause and result is like telling someone who is holding an apple that they still need to go pick an apple in order to be able to eat the one they are already holding.

In this degenerate age, the only effective path is the path of direct perception. We do not have time to mess around with theories of sūtra and mantra, accumulation and purification, birth, cause and result, etc. These are all just proliferation.

It is precisely because we live in a degenerate age that the best path for sentient beings is the path where they recognize there is no difference between afflictions and gnosis, that there is no "better place" than the three realms, etc. This is exactly the message the Buddha gives in the Vimalakīrti Sūtra 's first chapter. Amitabha's pure land is exactly the same as this billion world realm.

It may make us feel more secure to pray to a powerful being, accept what we infer as their blessings, etc. But in reality, we are already complete with nothing more to add, neither samsara nor nirvana exist, we just need to meet teachers who have this knowledge and then we can realize this ourselves without any effort at all in this life, or at worse, in the bardo or the next life, without ever having to be concerned about returning to samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:



Zhen Li said:
As for the state of this age, that is not my claim, but the claim of the Mahāsaṃnipāta sūtra and others. As for Atiyoga, this is another Atiyoga.

Malcolm wrote:
There are lots of sūtras, that vast majority of them provisional.

As for your claim that your tenet is equivalent to ati yoga, no, since you keep insisting on a hard demarcation between buddhas and commoners, based on your "liberative realism." Since there are no saviors in Buddhism we really ought to avoid the term "soteriological."

Atiyoga offers another kind of liberative realism, one is already liberated, one simply needs to get out of one's own way to discover this. The Inner Potential again:

Nondual great bliss is the continuous practice of sentient beings,
though demonstrated as a mistaken path by the deluded.
Since there is no duality in the great path demonstrated above,
the one who understand sameness is the lord of all buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Astus said:
To say that there is no cause for liberation means that it can never happen, everyone is eternally without any freedom from suffering.

Zhen Li said:
You are mixing conventional and ultimate.

Malcolm wrote:
Mañjśrīmitra writes:

Therefore, because awakening and nonawakening are the same in terms of absence of characteristics, there is nothing to accept or reject.
In accordance with that meaning, all those explanations 
of the nominal ultimate, the absence of arising and ceasing, sameness, 
nonduality, beyond thought, emptiness, the dharmadhātu, 
freedom from expression and convention, and so on are neither ultimate nor relative.
If it is said, “This is the path in accordance with the ultimate,” that is relative.

And Mipham asks, "In reality, where is there a “relative and ultimate” that are inseparable as the two truths?"

Zhen Li said:
This is simply a question of soteriological realism. In the Pure Land tradition it is admitted that Buddhahood is impossible by the power of the ordinary being, the conventional level. Awakening is always on the side of Buddha Nature. This is the gist of the Nirvāṇa Sūtra.

Malcolm wrote:
This proves the Nirvana Sūtra is a provisional text.

Zhen Li said:
Buddhas and bodhisattvas are ultimately inactive.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have refuted your own tenet, and you must accept the consequence that there is no other power.

Zhen Li said:
Their appearance of action and cultivation is what happens when their activity comes in contact with our limited minds.

So, from the side of awakening, it is realised very much that in fact the curtains are actually opened by the Buddha. The appearance of needing to open is only something manifest to our unawakened cognition.

This power to open the curtains is illustrated in narrative form by Dharmākara's ten aeons of cultivation, and the wholesome roots which he dedicates to us for our birth. On the other hand, Amitāyus' life is infinite and he is the primordial Dharmakāya. Conventional and ultimate interacting.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhahood does not exist, apart from delusion, as Mañjuśrīmitra writes:

Since the awakening of the sugata does not exist, his magical apparitions appear to the deluded, similar to an illusion.

Zhen Li said:
To express it in conventional terms, then, the weight of our karmic evil is so heavy that we can never attain buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
To express it in conventional terms, as above, there is no buddhahood outside of sentient beings. The Inner Potential states:

In the dhātu of all outer and inner phenomena,
the pure experiential field,
Buddhas and sentient beings are nondual,
how can there be fabrication with a path?

...

Deluded by the immature, because one is been placed on a path of conceptual Dharma practice
it is not the path to traverse, at no time will one becomes realized. 
How can dharmatā be found by seeking Dharma?

Thus, there is no basis for your claim which distinguishes buddhas and commoners. That distinction is false and cannot be established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Right, so the value in Pure Land practice is that this can be done equally by the kind of person who can understand what you just wrote, and an illiterate peasant.

Malcolm wrote:
The value of what I wrote is that it can be understood by anyone.

Furthermore, since our obscurations are not caused by some other being, likewise our liberation can not be caused by some other beings, nor can some other being act as a condition for our liberation. Liberation can only be self-liberation, whether that occurs in this life, the bardo, or a buddhafield. And that self-liberation will never be a result of effort, or causes and result. As Vajrasattva says:

Liberation is self-originated, not from another.

And the Soaring Garuda states:

The nature of primordial buddhahood exists as a direct perception.

The commentary states:

Since the all migrating beings of the three houses are embraced within wisdom that lacks a center or periphery from the beginning, there is no one else to designate a buddha, buddhahood exist as a direct perception of one’s vidyā.

Therefore, no distinction needs to be made between buddhas and ordinary beings, since direct perceptions are not dependent on words and concepts, and buddhahood is immediately attainable in this life without effort.

I only mention this because you keep insisting that beings of this age are so benighted that they cannot understand anything. This is not true, and Atiyoga has an opposite narrative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Tao said:
It's interesting (caucus) but it seems it's used only in a minority of states... ¿15 over 50? (forgive me if I'm wrong I just searched fast)

Malcolm wrote:
Again, you misunderstand. To caucus in this context means "to vote with." Not a formal state caucus.

Tao said:
But apparently is just a patch to soften a very monopolistic system (which in part proves its deficiencies). The fact is that you live in a country with mostly only two parties to choose and that creates a very poor democracy system. And I'm sure is part of the problem with USA politics. The more you can effectively choose and have a direct vote, the more democracy you will find.

Malcolm wrote:
I live in Massachussetts. I do directly vote for my senator, representative, as well as local state senators, etc. And in my town, every decision is taken by direct vote.

Tao said:
You dont need a caucus if every party can have the fair and direct results from the voters.

Malcolm wrote:
You did not understand the range of usage of the term "caucus." There is the formal caucus system, which is horribly unwieldy and time consuming; then there is the practice of those who belong to third parties or being independent (Bernie Sanders, Angus King, etc.) who vote with either one or the other of the two major parties.

Right now, there is push by moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans to create a third, centrist party, because the Republican Party has been completely taken over by fascists at the top, and a lot of people on the right, who are not fascists are freaked out by progressives in the Democratic party and disgusted by the fascist takeover of the GOP.

In reality, there are four factions in the US party politics: social and fiscal conservative Republicans; socially liberal, fiscally conservative Republicans; right-leaning Democrats, and Progressive Democrats. Joe Manchin and Sinema are right-leaning Dems. The fascists who now control the GOP are a small minority, but they have a lot of money.

The problem with our system is 1) the amount of money in our politics, not the two party system; 2) lack of civic education about how our government is actually supposed to work; and 3) the willingness of a portion of our electorate to raise up a tyrant due to that ignorance. This happened in Ancient Greece as well, with the tyranny of Pisistratus.

Your info graphics do not show the nuances at play in our system. It is not as cut and dried as you imagine things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Tao said:
>There is nothing to prevent that from happening in our system. These "third" parties simply do not get votes, except rarely, on a national scale in general elections. They are mostly effective at a local level. And when there are successful candidates from these parties, they tend to be coopted, for better or worse, by the two big parties. Kirsten Sinema is an example, started as a Green, moved to the Dems, and is now a DINO. AOC is another example, started as a Democratic Socialist, but is now a Dem.

Oh, is not that easy, it's very different in Europe, in your system the whole country is from a party, in Europe every country or region aports politics in proportion to the voted.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, thus is just how things have worked out. The party system is not in the constitution. For example, I normally vote with the Dems, but I have voted Green in the past as well.

Tao said:
That means that a party in USA has to WIN a whole country to have any representation.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, thus not baked in, it is just how our party system has evolved.

Tao said:
In Europe you just need to win a congressman in a country and you will have representation.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the same here. For example, Sanders in an independent.

Tao said:
No one starts a party and Wins a whole country, that's very very rare.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, it is not baked in. It’s just that so far, since Lincoln, no third party has garnered enough support to field a candidate who can win a national election.


Tao said:
In USA the winner of the voting (maybe with 51% of the votes), will bring the 46 to the congress,.. and that's all. No other party will be represented. That's kind of a monopolistic rule...

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not how state elections work. You’ve been misinformed. State elections send congressman to congress, not parties. If a third party gains enough votes, they will caucus with another party, and get a candidate elected, for example, AOC. She is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America, who generally caucus with Democrats, and who are trying to move the a Democratic Party to the left.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
That is not what is occuring.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you are not explaining it very well.

The problem isn't liberation; the problem is affliction. It may be the case that sentient beings are not inherently afflicted (original liberation); it is also the case that they are not inherently omniscient.
"There is no such thing as an "ordinary being," just buddhas with temporary obscurations."[/quote]

Correct, there is no contradiction between those two statements.
If sentient beings are inherently buddhas, why is their store of merit and gnosis also not complete? This is a contradiction in your theory.
"There is no such thing as an "ordinary being," just buddhas with temporary obscurations."[/quote]

Correct, their two stores are complete, but they are temporally obscured; their stores of merit are latent.

You assert these originally liberated beings need an infusion of merit from the Buddha to take birth. There is no contradiction in my position, but there remains one in yours.

Zhen Li said:
A Buddha cannot will a being into awakening, but he can transfer merit to allow us to be born in Sukhāvatī if we are willing to accept it.

Malcolm wrote:
How is this necessary at all, since all sentient beings are inherently buddhas, unless by "liberation" you mean something other than buddhahood.
I would say that it is from the deluded perspective (ours) that we consider buddhahood to be attained upon birth. But upon attaining buddhahood, this temporal duality drops away.
This says nothing more than Haribhadra's observation that that when buddhahood is realized, one realizes one was never not a buddha.

So you are basically claiming, from a deluded perspective, things like merit transfer and so on are necessary to take birth, and that merit transfer depends on a kind of prasannacitta, but that in reality it is all illusion. Why bother with nembutus or shinjin at all, when understanding that there is nothing apart from dharmatā is sufficient for buddhahood in this life, since that is illusory too?

Second, this perception of a mistaken field of experience by the six kinds of migrating beings with misconceptions is the correct path which is not traversed, the meaning of primordial buddhahood just as it is since self-originated pristine consciousness that is unfabricated and unsullied self-appears. As it is said:

Also the appearances of the six destinies
must be understood as the first path

If that is realized, because of just that, one arrives without having traversed [a path].

What is the path free of effort?

"That being the case, through there is a meditator, he does not engage in mentation about the object, dharmatā, not even using the word “meditation”. Since the mind essence is whatever dharmatā is, intrinsically never stirring from intrinsic clarity is called “meditation” conventionally, but it is ascertained to be objectless. Just like space, intrinsically never stirring because there is no inside or  outside, the mind neither extends or withdraws, there is nothing to negate or prove, there is no arising and entering, there is no hope and fear, there is no gain or loss, there is nothing clear or unclear, there is no activity of concentration to perform.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
Birth doesn't create the wisdom, it's inherent in liberation which is original.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem isn't liberation; the problem is affliction. It may be the case that sentient beings are not inherently afflicted (original liberation); it is also the case that they are not inherently omniscient.

Zhen Li said:
Merit brings about birth, birth brings about liberation. But the transfer of merit doesn't directly cause liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
If sentient beings are inherently buddhas, why is their store of merit and gnosis also not complete? This is a contradiction in your theory.

Zhen Li said:
The Pure Land has no conditions to bring karmic seeds to fruition. The Buddha's light of wisdom emerges (see above) and directly eliminates the darkness of delusion.

Malcolm wrote:
How is this necessary at all, since all sentient beings are inherently buddhas, unless by "liberation" you mean something other than buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Astus said:
Karmic bonds are severed at the end of one's life.
By what? Merit transference does not eliminate karma. Wisdom is not produced to cut off afflictions. What could do it then?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. It does not even actually transfer (if it did, it would be compounded, impermanent). If it did, all sentient beings would have a full store of merit at all times, because out of their compassion, all buddhas would always transfers their infinite merit to everyone, and if this were effective as claimed, all sentient beings long ago would have have attained buddhahood already. Primodial buddhahood is useless if one's afflictions are still in play.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Zoroastrianism.

Zhen Li said:
Scriptural quote?
Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say that "the Paradise in the Avesta," I pointed to the Persian walled gardens, which were hugely influential in that region, and demonstrably, on Buddhist writing about buddhafields and so on. As I pointed out, it is not that this is how they actually look, but it is hard for a limited human mind to comprehend such things.

Zhen Li said:
And supposedly they didn't have gardens in India? Jetavana, Venuvana, Rsipatana, Lumbini, Kapilavastu, Vaisali etc.

Malcolm wrote:
All based on the Persian model.

Zhen Li said:
think the Persian idea of the garden has several differences from the Indian idea.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean like a pond in the middle, four squares, a checkered ground,  fruits trees, birds, etc., which is precisely described in a hundred visualization texts?

Zhen Li said:
There's no doubt continuum and trade between the west and India, all the way to the east, and I think that arts and cultivation spread this way, but just to pass it all off as Zoroastrian as if to suggest that means it doesn't matter is lazy history writing (which also has the effect of treating culture and religion as a discrete phenomena rather than transcultural and continually changing and being porous, as if something done by non-Buddhists is not something that cannot also be fully Buddhist and is therefore less authentic).

Malcolm wrote:
I think the problem is that you think of Persian culture as "over there" and Indian culture as "over here" without recalling the broad area of central Asia where they freely mixed, but which was largely culturally Persian, inhabited by people's who spoke dialects of "Persian", and who were largely adherents of Mazdaism until the Greeks arrived.

Zhen Li said:
From the perspective of the Pure Land tradition, the transformed land appears in the way it does for very good reasons, and each feature has symbolic meaning and didactic function.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it does. It isn't movie script after all. But if it is symbolic and didactic, it isn't literal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Or both borrowed from the Zoroastrian playbook, since layout and features of Sukhavati resemble nothing so much as an idealized Persian pairidaêza

Zhen Li said:
The Zoroastrian connection is worn out and faulty. Paradise in the Avesta does not resemble Sukhavati, and isn't actually very descriptive at all. The Zoroastrian dualistic ideology doesn't fit well with any form of Buddhism, but Buddhism came to prosper alongside Zoroastrianism for a time. For all their co-existence, there is a surprisingly little amount of crosspollination.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say that "the Paradise in the Avesta," I pointed to the Persian walled gardens, which were hugely influential in that region, and demonstrably, on Buddhist writing about buddhafields and so on.  As I pointed out, it is not that this is how they actually look, but it is hard for a limited human mind to comprehend such things.

I personally think you are vastly underestimating the effect of Persian culture on central Asian Buddhism.

Zhen Li said:
Pure Land descriptions abound in Buddhist literature, and from a literary history perspective, they are clearly a Mahāyāna development and went onto influence garden literature in later Sanskrit works. Sukhāvatī is one among many such descriptions, resembling closely most other Buddha Fields, including those in the non-Mahāyāna Apadāna. There really isn't a clear non-Buddhist precedent for this and the Sukhāvatīvyūha and Aṣṭasahasrika manuscripts come out with these descriptions at about the same time. Also, the Sukhāvatīvyūha makes clear that this is a manifestation, whereas western ideas of gardens are ones of cultivation of actual life, with real and not manifested animals.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you are overlooking an important cultural point.

Zhen Li said:
On the more fundamental level it is seeing one's nature as an ordinary being in relation to buddha nature.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as an "ordinary being," just buddhas with temporary obscurations.

Zhen Li said:
While I am not saying faith is an agent, I would to know what pre-Buddhist teachings of liberation by faith exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Zoroastrianism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:



shagrath said:
It makes perfect sense. Thank you very much.

Method aside do lhun grub pointing out in mahamudra and dzocghen mean the same and point out to same quality?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Lhun grub in mahāmudra refers to appearances in general, or one might say that clear and cognizant (gsal rig) aspect of the nature of mind.

Passing By said:
Is this the same as the nature, rangzhin salwa, in Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Rang bzhin gsal ba does not refer to clarity and cognizance (gsal rig). In Dzogchen, it is thugs rje which is the cognizant aspect of the basis.  Rang bzhin gsal ba which refers to the apparent aspect of the basis, just as ngo bo ka dag is the empty aspect of the basis.

Because Kagyu Mahamudra, Dzogchen, and Lamdre, etc. use very similar terms, it is easy to get confused on this point. But in each system there are subtle differences in the way these terms are used which causes people to err by conflating one system with another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


DNS said:
There's no perfect system, but I think the rank-choice-voting is worth a shot, for U.S. politics.

Malcolm wrote:
100% opposed. It leads to uncertain outcomes, as you point out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:



Kai lord said:
So Garab was contemporaneous with Licchavi Vimalakirti?

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrahe was not a contemporary of the Buddha. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche dates Vajrahe's (as Grab Dorje's name is represented in the earliest Nyinthig literature) birth to 55 C.E. How he arrives at that date is a little opaque, as he follows the Sems sde lineage of 21 masters, but even here, it is only seven generatons deep (three masters per generation).

Kai lord said:
Quite confusing. Then how did Mañjushrimitra receive verbal teaching on Dzogchen from him in human form if they were centuries apart?

Malcolm wrote:
There are two Mañjuśrīmitras in the Sems sde lineage. The second is considered to be the emanation of the first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
A Buddha cannot will a being into awakening, but he can transfer merit to allow us to be born in Sukhāvatī if we are willing to accept it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but to me, this sounds like Christianity. "If you let Jesus into your heart, you will be born in his kingdom."

Zhen Li said:
The gospels more than likely came after the Sukhāvatīvyūha. As Christianity developed, it more than certainly borrowed some things from the Buddhist playbook.

Malcolm wrote:
Or both borrowed from the Zoroastrian playbook, since layout and features of Sukhavati resemble nothing so much as an idealized Persian pairidaêza, a walled garden, in the form of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charbagh, the earliest known example being that of Cyrus the Great's. Of course, this can be chalked up to the limitations of the human ability to comprehend the scope and nature of pure buddhafield, whether cultivated or natural. Further, the idea of liberation through the agency of faith in another is a great deal older than Buddhism, which is what you fundamentally appear to be advocating. That's fine, and you can make fine distinctions between this and that as you like, but that's what it looks like from the bleacher seats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Bristollad said:
I think America would benefit getting some younger politicians, you know, ones who aren’t old enough to be great grandparents

Tao said:
Always thought that USA will be a lot better if it was possible to change your voting system so more parties can be in your congress..

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing to prevent that from happening in our system. These "third" parties simply do not get votes, except rarely, on a national scale in general elections. They are mostly effective at a local level. And when there are successful candidates from these parties, they tend to be coopted, for better or worse, by the two big parties. Kirsten Sinema is an example, started as a Green, moved to the Dems, and is now a DINO. AOC is another example, started as a Democratic Socialist, but is now a Dem.

You to understand the two parties are actually like your coalitions. They are in fact composed of various factions with competing interests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:



Kai lord said:
Yes already noted that (see above). If anyone knows what yidam Jñanasutra and Garab practice, feel free to add to the list.

Malcolm wrote:
Garab Dorje transmitted many yidam practices, such as Yamantaka, Hayagriva, Vajrapani, Vajrasattva, etc He did not practice any of them. Buddhas don’t require practice.

Kai lord said:
So Garab was contemporaneous with Licchavi Vimalakirti?

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrahe was not a contemporary of the Buddha. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche dates Vajrahe's (as Grab Dorje's name is represented in the earliest Nyinthig literature) birth to 55 C.E. How he arrives at that date is a little opaque, as he follows the Sems sde lineage of 21 masters, but even here, it is only seven generatons deep (three masters per generation).

But in the early Nyinthig literature, the Buddha's parirvana is dated nearly a century later than the standard scholastic presentation of 407+- BCE., etc., but none of these accounts are reliable. Modern scholars like to place Garab Dorje in the mid-7th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
A Buddha cannot will a being into awakening, but he can transfer merit to allow us to be born in Sukhāvatī if we are willing to accept it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but to me, this sounds like Christianity. "If you let Jesus into your heart, you will be born in his kingdom."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Kai lord said:
We can speculate about that. Like twelve Buddhas of dzogchen, Garab dorje, Shri Singha, Jñanasutra, Vimalamitra, Vairotsana, etc. Here are the names straight off from my head. Feel free to add to the list......

yagmort said:
just to note, Vimalamitra transmitted Vajrakilaya to Nyak Jñānakumara, so Vimalamitra is not on the list.

Kai lord said:
Yes already noted that (see above). If anyone knows what yidam Jñanasutra and Garab practice, feel free to add to the list.

Malcolm wrote:
Garab Dorje transmitted many yidam practices, such as Yamantaka, Hayagriva, Vajrapani, Vajrasattva, etc He did not practice any of them. Buddhas don’t require practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
???

What's the point of this?

cloudburst said:
I should also mention that

Malcolm wrote:
Even Migtsema can be a Dzogchen practice, if one understands the principle of the three vajras and their relationship to the three family protectors. After all, the very first text, after his namthar, in the Lhasa edition of Tsongkhapa's collected works is a Dzogchen text.

cloudburst said:
The Dzogchen text you reference here also states that it is "essential to meditate on the mystic deity (yidam)"

Malcolm wrote:
Some people need to rely on an indirect method to realize the meaning of Dzogchen. Mipham comments on this indirect method discussed in Mañjuśrīmitra's Cultivation of Bodhicitta:

2.8 The explanation of the method for realizing the definitive meaning with the indirect method:

Furthermore, since the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind. 
After the three samadhis are stable and after binding the three symbolic mudras, 
generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].

If it is asked, “What is the method for realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing at the moon with a finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization. 

In that case, this which is to be explained is the basis or cause of the meditation that generates ultimate awakened mind itself. If it is asked what that is, it is samadhi and mudra. 

Now then, through the power of cultivating the three samadhis of suchness, universal illumination and the cause, [14/a] one will be stable, and not carried away by negative conditions. After the meditation of binding the three symbolic mudras of buddhahood— the body (mahāmudra), the mind (samaya mudra), and the activities (karmamudra)—generate the mind as the great dharmamudra (the symbol of speech). One should then meditate the recitation of the essence mantra.

If one meditates generating the thought that the samadhis and the mudras are dharmatā and therefore are not different, the ultimate awakened mind will arise. If one actualizes the meditation, one realizes that all phenomena do not exist apart from one’s mind. The accumulations are gathered and obscurations are purified because of that meditation. One becomes realized because one’s continuum is blessed by the deity of pristine consciousness.

This is more or less the approach of the elaborate Chime Phakma Nyinthig. There is also, in the root text, and indication of an Anuyoga approach, as well as topics more directly proper to Dzogchen specifically.

So what is the direct approach? Again Mipham comments:

2.7.2.1

Nothing is to be abandoned with regard to the emergent or the non-emergent. A foundation of mind is not erected. There is nothing to realize.
Even the slightest movement which is not Mañjuśrī is [Mañjuśrī]; there is no abiding there. 
Because a ground on which to meditate is not attained, nothing is attained by meditating. 
Those consciousnesses that are the domain of the mind are the dharmatā of phenomena. 
Meditate on this supreme path that is free from aspects and also free of best or worst. 

Nothing is to be abandoned with regard to the emergent. A foundation of the mind is not erected for the non-emergent. There is nothing to realize through the perception of a result or a true meaning. 

If it is asked why nothing is abandoned, since there is no pain in dharmatā, it is gentle [‘jam, mañju]. Since it is glorious, if that [dharmatā] is realized, it is “glorious [dpal, śrī].” If the movement or existence of the slightest subtle fault of sign or concept which is not that dharmatā is seen, since that is the ultimate pristine consciousness of dharmatā or Mañjuśrī, it is not to be abandoned. If it is asked where there is abiding in that dharmatā or Mañjuśrī, since there is no basis in which to abide because the nature of [dharmatā or Mañjuśrī] is not established at all, there is no abiding there. 

Because a ground on which to meditate cannot be attained, who will attain a result by meditating on something? [12/b] Dharmatā is the phenomenon of any of the mental concepts (of any appearance of an aspect) that arise from that consciousness (which is the domain of the mind). Since all domains are not apart from dharmatā, anything whatsoever appearing here is faultless. 

If it is asked, “If there are no faults, for what reason are there sentient beings?,” it is because they grasp various signs as true. In order to explain that there is no samsara if there is freedom from the aspect of clinging to true signs, because all phenomena are free from all aspects of signs, there is no grasping to any phenomena. Meditating without the aspect of accepting and rejecting, for example “This is the best and this is the worst,” is the supreme path. Meditate continually on the path like this.

The actual path of Dzogchen, which has nothing to do with the two stages, is just as stated above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
???

What's the point of this?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Twenty Void Eons
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I see. Then there are twenty antarakalpas or intermediate eons, that would be the closest Buddhadharma equivalent to the pralayas or mahapralayas of non-Buddhist Indian Dharma?

For reference, that may help those who are not familiar with these topics:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=337519#p337519

Malcolm wrote:
It’s all laid out in the Kosha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Twenty Void Eons
Content:
Sādhaka said:
[Mod note: This question was split from the topic "Where to get clear/detailed teachings on Buddhist cosmology, from hells, to dragons, asuras, garudas, deva realm & more?"]



A question for Malcolm: You’ve mentioned the twenty void eons. This would be pralaya or mahapralaya yes? Although why/how twenty? Is this explained in general Buddhadharma cosmology or cosmogony, or are the twenty void eons only mentioned in the Dzogchen Tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
These are mentioned in general buddhist cosmology. Dzogchen in fact departs very little from the presentation of cosmology found in Abhidharma. As far as I know, the terms pralaya, etc., are not used in Buddhist cosmological texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Why are there so many versions of a deity practice?
Content:
conebeckham said:
First, it's important to understand  the sarma/terma distinction---many Dzambhala practices are Terma revalations.

Then, even within one lineage or transmission of a given deity or mandala, you may find various masters composing sadhanas that may differ a bit.

Nalanda said:
Yeah but why tho? Why so many variations of either sarma/terma/sadhanas?

Malcolm wrote:
Lots of valleys.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Lhun grub means something different in mahamudra and Dzogchen. For example, it is commonly said in Dzogchen that trekcho is view of the basis, ka dag; thogal is the path, lhun grub.

What astus says is not exactly wrong, but it isn’t quite perfect either. In mahamudra there is no direct method for working with so-called “wisdom appearances,” so mahamudra throughout does not really go beyond trekcho. The actual meaning of the term lhun grub is “not made by anyone” and “effortless,” depending on context.

shagrath said:
It makes perfect sense. Thank you very much.

Method aside do lhun grub pointing out in mahamudra and dzocghen mean the same and point out to same quality?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Lhun grub in mahāmudra refers to appearances in general, or one might say that clear and cognizant (gsal rig) aspect of the nature of mind. The words are the same, but the meaning is very different. Different systems, different paths, and thus, different terminology. Part of the confusion is that early Mahāmudra translations used a lot of Nyingma terminology, but to a different purpose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The point in Pure Land is that its power is manifested through Dharmākara's vows and brings people to a point where they can realise it themselves. Buddhānubhāvena (by the Buddha's power) is how many people achieve all sorts of things in the sūtra literature—the realisation, however, is for themselves alone and not forced upon them by the Buddha.

Astus said:
In that case why wouldn't Sukhavati be a so called 'training ground'? It provides an optimal state of existence for beings to attain awakening.
To overcome reliance on self power is to directly see one's true nature.
Then no reason to talk of any other power, since, as you stated above: 'everyone is liberated when they realise Buddha Nature'.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no reason to talk about self power either, since self and other are just grasping dualistic extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:
shagrath said:
In 9th Karmapa's Ocean of Definitive Meaning there are 4 pointing outs within appearances:

1) All phenomena come from mind
2) Mind is emptiness
3) Emptiness is spontaneous presence
4) Spontaneous presence is self-liberated

Mingyur Rinpoche said that 2nd transmission is ka dag aspect. I saw on Ranjung Yeshe dictionary translates spontaneous presence as lhun grub. So I would guess that 3rd and 4th transmission are lhun grub aspect. Just like two aspects in dzogchen pointing outs.

If Mahamudra also has both ka dag and lhun grub aspects, how come there is no thod rgal in tradition?

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhun grub means something different in mahamudra and Dzogchen. For example, it is commonly said in Dzogchen that trekcho is view of the basis, ka dag; thogal is the path, lhun grub.

What astus says is not exactly wrong, but it isn’t quite perfect either. In mahamudra there is no direct method for working with so-called “wisdom appearances,” so mahamudra throughout does not really go beyond trekcho. The actual meaning of the term lhun grub is “not made by anyone” and “effortless,” depending on context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:


Zhen Li said:
The great compassion of the Buddhas is for those that suffer most. It is greatly urgent to rescue those drowning in the water, but what need is there to save those who are already standing on the other shore?

Malcolm wrote:
If this were true, all hell beings, pretas, and animals would immediately be liberated into Sukhavati, but they are not. Buddhas cannot liberate anyone, all they can do is show a path. Without a precious human birth, liberation is not possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: BDK Digha Agama Volume 3, Page 162
Content:
Nalanda said:
The Buddha continued:
...
Only the nāga king of
Anavatapta Lake has no trouble of this kind, because garuḍas that try to
enter the lake all perish. Hence, the lake is called Anavatapta, which in
Chinese means “absence of feverish agony.”

This is the Buddha talking.

Why did it say "in Chinese" there?

Malcolm wrote:
Translator glloss.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Can you dedicate merit to people who died several years ago?
Content:
Boomerang said:
does dedicating merit to them several years later still work? What if they're reborn as a human or animal?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Recent informatuon on Michael Gregory
Content:
gelukman said:
Any one have more insight into Michael Gregory lamahood?

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/michealgregorymindfulness


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It would be great if India was restored to it's Buddhist origin. Those dang Brahmins took over and messed the place up!

Kim O'Hara said:
Ummm... by that logic, it would be great if India was restored to it's Vedic origins. Those dang Buddhists took over and messed the place up!


Kim

Crazywisdom said:
India doesn't have Vedic origins. That's fake news.

Malcolm wrote:
True. Proto-Indo-Iranian tribes seem to have originated in the Sintashta culture (2050-1900 BCE), around the Caspian Sea. They split between 2000 BCE and 1600 BCE. Indo-Aryans moved into Bactria, and borrowed from the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex ( 2250–1700 BC). Some of these peoples moved to Northen Syria [Hittities], the rest moved south into Punjab, while the Iranians arrived in Western Iran around 1300 BCE. In general, the Indo-Aryans began to move into India in waves between 2000-1600 BCE. The Rig Veda seems to date to around 1200-1000 BCE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan names
Content:
naril said:
Hi,

can you please translate my name? Samten Dawa

Malcolm wrote:
Moon of concentration.

Dhyānacandra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Latest request from ChNNs family
Content:
Cinnabar said:
It seemed like a very reasonable request.

It's best to not share dharma images on line in the most general terms. Shrines, deities, seed syllables, what have you.

Intimate and candid pictures of one's dharma family would seem to fit that.

Malcolm wrote:
It amounts to shutting the barn doors after the horses have escaped.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Sautrantika Following Scripture/Reason Tibetan/Sanskrit/Chinese
Content:
kirtu said:
wholly Tibetan designations without Chinese and Sanskrit analogues?

How did Vasubandhu distinguish the two types of Sautrantikas in the Abhidharmakośakārikā and other texts?

Malcolm wrote:
These are wholly Tibetan categories,

Vasubandhi discussess two types of Sautrantikas in the Kośa: Sautrantikas proper, and Darshantikas, to whom it is likely Tibetans classified as those following reason, i.e., Dharmakīrti, et al.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Latest request from ChNNs family
Content:
PeterC said:
The subject of an image in a context where there is no prior contract and no expectation of privacy does not, in Italy (the source of the term “paparazzo”) or most other places, have any rights over use of the image.  So it’s a rather pointless request.  It feels like an attempt to assert ownership rights.

We were also presented with this communication as coming from ChNNr’s family without further context.  Is that the whole family?

Malcolm wrote:
I suspect it refers to the many historical photos on Facebook of the boss in intimate settings in their various homes over the years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 6:05 PM
Title: Re: Latest request from ChNNs family
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
From what I heard through the grape wine the issue is sharing photos of the family members online. Which I kinda get and it makes sense. Unfortunately it is written in a rather strange manner. Especially the intro. But the gist seems to be: "Just don't take our pictures without us knowing and don't share it online, man!"

treehuggingoctopus said:
Then please, put it this way. Exactly this way. Do not let us wonder why you speak of "the happy moments that have been lived and shared with our loved ones, as well as those shared in all of these years, walking together with our beloved Chögyal Namkhai Norbu."

PS.

Rinpoche had, obviously, his family. He also has his students, whom he himself encouraged, in a traditional fashion, to regard each other (and him) as family. Some people have tried to do it, but Rinpoche's family in the first sense of the word wants now to define the limits here, effectively establishing in what sense, to what extent, etc. Rinpoche's students are his/their family in the second sense. Understandable, of course. But if those who are now told not to share the photos/videos of their beloved master the way they share the photos/videos of their loved ones feel bewildered and possibly hurt, it should not come as any surprise either.

I still cannot understand who is caused pain when people share lovely, funny or charming photos of a person they all deeply cared for. Myself, I will eagerly comply, of course, with the wish of the family. In all my life I shared the sum total of some three photos of Rinpoche's online and I am perfectly OK with stopping at this point. Still, cui bono?

Malcolm wrote:
It assumes they have all rights to any image of themselves and the boss, which of course is incorrect. Image rights belong to the photographer, not the subject, unless there is an explicit contract.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 17th, 2022 at 12:53 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
kirtu said:
[

In reality because they did not wish to do so.  In the US, a federal Grand Jury can indict a ham sandwich on practically anything:


Malcolm wrote:
I understand some people would like to see her tried as an accessory to murder or an accomplice, but that’s not going to happen. You can complain all you like about the injustice of it all, but the fact is that the grand jury did not find sufficient evidence to charge her with a crime. Could she be subject to civil suit, sure. But to what purpose? We all know what she did. Regardless of how we feel about it, the justice system has decided. It’s final. People like her go free so people like you don’t get charged for being a ham sandwich in the wrong time and place. In addition, no one assumes grand juries determine guilt or innocence. They consider solely whether there is sufficient evidence to indict.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 17th, 2022 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


kirtu said:
Both events are the real America.

Malcolm wrote:
In the latter case, there was not sufficient evidence to indict her on a charge of kidnapping or manslaughter. No matter how you feel about it, we don’t send people jail because of how we feel. The statute of limitation ran out on her lying to the FBI.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But frankly, all KU does is complain about negativities.

kirtu said:
That's false (and is furthermore a personal attack).

Malcolm wrote:
Oh please.



kirtu said:
I have said more than once that the US saved the world twice in the 20th century and that it is *possible* that the US could proceed to become a utopia.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s your problem right there—Utopianism. No democracy will ever be a utopia (good thing too).

kirtu said:
The US is also the only know nation in history to step back from genocide after initiating it (this happened because Indian Agents in the late 1800's wrote about it in newspapers and openly suggested formal genocide [before the word had even been defined] - there was an outcry from the people and it was stopped).

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you are defining as genocide. Since I am OG invader stock, New York Dutch and Mayflower, I’ve spent a fair bit time trying to understand settler colonialism and its consequences for indigenous populations, from 19th century ethnic cleansing, which British perfected against my Highland Scots ancestors, such as the Jacksonian  Indian Removals and beyond. But it doesn’t end there, there is also culturecide, which native people are still dealing with. So please don’t lecture me on the misdeeds of settlers in the US.

Despite this, I think democracy is the best among all systems of government, imperfect though it may be. It only succeeds if people believe in it, and are willing to participate through carrying out their civic duties, such as voting, etc. We are the oldest democracy In history. We are still a viable democracy, and it offends me that you constantly seek to undermine it. After all, you are the one who has repeatedly expressed your desire to live under a monarchy, albeit, a so-called Dharma king.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 9:16 AM
Title: Re: The Grave Commusocialist Danger to Your Latte
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
I was a Starbucks barista (sorry, "partner") for a couple of years before law school.  I wish like hell I'd had a union when I was there.

Malcolm wrote:
Dreadful coffee.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
People’s history of the US is exactly what it sounds like, and I would rather define what it is to be an American by the labor movement, civil rights movement etc. than by the imperial designs of its power structures.

Malcolm wrote:
I prefer to define myself as American through the history of ideas that made these movements possible, which, IMO, found their best expression in American democracy, "towards a more perfect union."

But frankly, all KU does is complain about negativities. He is not happy here. I wonder why he bothers to stay.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
kirtu said:
US history is inescapable - except you deliberately ignore it.

Malcolm wrote:
I have read Zinn, several times, and a great deal of history in general, much of it critical of the US. I don't ignore the flaws of settler colonialism, capitalism, white supremacy, etc. Nevertheless, I understand the US presence in the world in the 20th century to largely be a good thing, as well as the western hegemony. I also think the founders created a very solid democratic republic, and that democracy is not dead in this country...yet.

As I said, the key feature of democracy is the peaceful transfer of power. If you don't have that, you can have all the civil rights laws and social program on the books you can imagine, but without peaceful transfer of power, your vote does not count.

So we simply disagree on this point. So, go ahead and keep on posting how evil the USA is. You and Dzongsar will be good company for each other. Even though his dad raised the Stars and Stripes over his house in Delhi every day.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "virtuous country" nor is there such a thing as "virtuous king," except in myth and legend.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Sādhaka said:
None of this matters ultimately though. What matters most is the Four Noble Truths, and burning up our emotional & cognitive afflictions so that we can help others to do the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The Qabalah and Tarot are quite obviously related.

Malcolm wrote:
Only since the Golden Dawn neophyte material. Before, that, zip, zero, nada. Please recall that before I became a Buddhist I spent some years exploring Thelema, Tarot, Gematria, Spare's Zos Kia, and the whole nine yards. Liber 777 was my bible.

The origin of tarot cards is a gambling game brought by Mongols to Europe based on Vajrayāna initiation cards; the minor arcana represents four of the five buddha families; the major arcana was developed in Renaissance Italy, from the card game which was popular then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Malcolm, the art-piece looks almost like Krishna as a Yogi with a loincloth on, therefore I don’t think it is unsafe to assume that Gichtel was depicting Cakras. It looks to me like he just wanted to assign ‘the Seven Planets of Alchemy’ to the Seven Chakras.

Meaning that it looks like he is showing the negative influence of the planets on the Chakras, in the undeveloped man; that is to say one who has not yet activated their Cakras in a positive way…. I mean they are placed right around where the said Chakras are located too.

And perhaps he is not implying that the Cakras actually move like the planets, but is just showing it as an example as to how their energies if you will (or vayus rather) are interrelated within the Chakra system.

But who knows….

Malcolm wrote:
Believe what you want. You will anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Look at the following from the Christian mystic Johann Gichtel, drawn or painted in 1696:



humble.student said:
There was an academic paper that showed Gichtel would have had access to books of Indology - iirc Athanasius Kircher - that depicted the chakras and so on, and that this was not a case of him coming up with it all by himself.

Malcolm wrote:
These are not cakras. This is describing the course of the planets in the human body. It is clear if you pay attention to the symbols inside the spheres. You have Saturn, Moon, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars, Venus, and the Sun in that order, lined up on the black line, from the crown to the sun.

The legend reads, "The tenebrous, natural, earthly man, according to the stars and elements."

Thus, nothing to do with cakras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 10:19 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Sādhaka said:
And in esotericism, the Seven Churches of Asia are considered to be the Seven Cakras in the Kundalini or Laya Yoga system, and 144,000 Chosen refers to the number of Lotus Petals of the Chakras.

Malcolm wrote:
If you want to believe this shit, go ahead, but it’s f**cking laughable, 19th century nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 7:33 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Well I just take the Lost Word to be a reference to the Secret (Lost) Mantra (Word); and is why Swedenborg said to look for it in “Tartary, China, and Thibet”.

Malcolm wrote:
And just how would he know this? I mean, you giving a lot of credibility to someone who mentions this lost word in their analysis of the Apocalypse of John:
11. Which are in Asia signifies to those who are in the light of
truth from the Word. Since by all the names of persons and places
in the Word the things of heaven and the church are meant, as was
said before; thus also they are meant by “Asia” and by the names of
the seven churches therein, as will appear from what follows. The
reason why they who are in the light of truth from the Word are
meant by “Asia” is because the most ancient church and after it the
ancient and then the Israelitish church were in Asia; also because
the ancient Word and afterwards the Israelitish were with them;
and all the light of truth is from the Word. There were ancient
churches in the Asiatic world and they had a Word which was
afterwards lost. Lastly, there was the Word which is extant at this
day. This may be seen in Doctrine of the New Jerusalem concerning
the Sacred Scripture (n. 101–103). On this account it is that by
“Asia” is here signified all who are in the light of truth from the
Word.

[2] Concerning this ancient Word, which was in Asia before the
Israelitish Word, it is fitting to relate this news: That it is still
reserved there among the people who are in Great Tartary; I have
spoken with spirits and angels in the spiritual world who came
thence, who said that they possess a Word, and have possessed it
from ancient times; and that their Divine worship is performed
according to this Word; and that it consists of mere
correspondences. They said that it also contains the book of Jasher,
which is mentioned in Joshua (10:12, 13), and 2 Sam. (1:17, 18),
and also, that with them are the books mentioned by Moses, as the
Wars of Jehovah and the Propheticals (Num. 21:14, 15, and
27–30); and when I read to them the words quoted thence by
Moses, they examined whether they were extant there, and found
them. From these things it was manifest to me that the ancient
Word is still with them. While speaking with them they said that
they worship Jehovah, some as an invisible, and some as a visible
God. Moreover they related that they do not suffer foreigners to
come among them, except the Chinese, with whom they cultivate
peace, because the emperor of China is from their country. And
further, that they are so populous, that they do not believe any
region in the whole world to be more populous; which is very
credible from the wall so many miles long, which the Chinese
formerly constructed as a safeguard against invasion from them.
Seek for it in China, and peradventure you will find it there among
the Tartars.
https://swedenborg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swedenborg_foundation_apocalypse_revealed_01.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I agree with you however, that Citiizens United has a corrupting influence on the US political system.

kirtu said:
So a corrupting influence on an already utterly failed system.

Got it.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be silly. You make us sound like Russia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Time of Enlightenment
Content:
Kai lord said:
Still does not support the scriptures. There is nowhere does the idea of Arhatship being temporary was being mentioned nor were fetters returning to Arhats simply based on the physical dissolution of cosmos.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen there is a concept of reversible buddhahood, where indeed, even buddhas can lose their awakening during the twenty void eons.

So yes, there is somewhere the idea that it is possible to even fall out of buddhahood. It's mentioned in the commentary on the Sound Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Lived before the discovery of the Rosetta stone, so no. This is just WET fantasizing.


Sādhaka said:
I don’t really know about the Egyptian part; but that aside, it’s a otherwise interesting statement.

Malcolm wrote:
The famous lost word is a Freemasonic myth:

The mythical history of Freemasonry informs us that there once existed a WORD of surpassing value, and claiming a profound veneration; that this Word was known to but few; that it was at length lost; and that a temporary substitute for it was adopted. But as the very philosophy of Masonry teaches us that there can be no death without a resurrection,--no decay without a subsequent restoration,--on the same principle it follows that the loss of the Word must suppose its eventual recovery.

Now, this it is, precisely, that constitutes the myth of the Lost Word and the search for it. No matter what was the word, no matter how it was lost, nor why a substitute was provided, nor when nor where it was recovered. These are all points of subsidiary importance, necessary, it is true, for knowing the legendary history, but not necessary for understanding the symbolism. The only term of the myth that is to be regarded in the study of its interpretation, is the abstract idea of a word lost and afterwards recovered.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/sof/sof33.htm

WET is exclusively an outgrowth of 19th century Masonry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:


yagmort said:
so these 4 empowerments in Chetsun Nyingthig = rigpa tsel wang empowerment? or rigpa tsel wang is the different thing altogether?

Malcolm wrote:
It's included in the four empowerments.

yagmort said:
what about Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyachen empowerments? to me it sounds what Malcolm said is that Thigle Gyachen has (4?) empowermnets and then Yeshe Lama has its own rigpa tsel wang empowerment, but what Peter said is like Thigle Gyachen has rigpa tsel wang one would need to practice Yeshe Lama, but it hasn't necessery to come from Thigle Gyachen? can some one clear this up for me, please?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is correct Thigle Gyacan has a rig pa'i rtsal dbang, and when you are receiving Ye shes bla ma, there is another rig pa'i rtsal dbang, before moving onto further instructions. Originally, however, the Thigle Gyacan had no empowerment. That was written by Khyentse Wangpo.

yagmort said:
is this arrangement (3 separate empowerments and 1 unified for all three) also the case for Chetsun Nyingthig?

Malcolm wrote:
No.

yagmort said:
and where is rigpa tsel wang (if any) in that scheme for Kunzang Thugtig?

Malcolm wrote:
You should go and receive this tradition, if you are interested in it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:




Sādhaka said:
“…Swedenborg, advises people to search for the LOST WORD among the hierophants of Tartary, China, and Thibet; for it is there, and only there now, although we find it inscribed on the monuments of the oldest Egyptian dynasties.”

Malcolm wrote:
Lived before the discovery of the Rosetta stone, so no. This is just WET fantasizing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022
Content:
Sādhaka said:
For an extreme example, imagine how many Empowerments Jamgon Kongtrul or Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo received. Do you think they did all the practices that they received, every single day? That would be impossible.

PeterC said:
Dilgo Khyentse R used to spend several hours each day running through a large number of sadhanas, changing males and implements periodically as needed. A lineage holder may have obligations to maintain practices that a regular practitioner would not.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN was also a lineage holder, in the classic sense of the term, like DKR, but he never spent his time this way. They were both Dzogchenpas, the difference, as far as I can tell, is personal inclination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model
Content:
Giovanni said:
Stevensons methodology was dismissed even by scientists with a Buddhist belief system.
They are pseudo science and should be discounted from any serious discussion of the actual Dharmic concept of Rebirth.
They are more akin to populist “Hindu” beliefs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022
Content:
Terma said:
Really? I understand the notion that we are all free to do what we please, but when your guru gives a practice commitment and one just decides to disregard it, does that not go against your guru's wishes?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on your level of understanding. If you understand that all practices have the same basic point, and unify everything in guru yoga, there is no problem. If you don't have this understanding, you are going to wind up in trouble.

The basis command one receives from one's gurus are: practice until you attain awakening. It doesn't really matter which practice you do, as long as you do something.

On the other hand, I am Dzogchen practitioner of the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and so I follow his directions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Sādhaka said:
==

And there’s no free-market where corporate lobbyism...

Malcolm wrote:
If course there, unless you advocate government regulation. Why shouldn't corporations lobby, just as other people do. After all, they are people too.

PeterC said:
The central argument in citizens United was that since corporations are associations of people, they should also enjoy freedom of speech as do natural people; and since spending money to distribute one’s message is an integral part of speech, then corporations should be able to do that too.

Up to that point, it’s hard to argue with.  The argument completely ignores that we regularly put limits on individuals’ ability to contribute money to political causes and that we also impose transparency requirements on political spending for individuals, while under Citizens Utd it is possible for non-natural persons to be subject to no spending limits and no real transparency requirements.

Malcolm wrote:
Citizens United refers to PACs, while Sadhaka was talking about regular companies.

I agree with you however, that Citiizens United has a corrupting influence on the US political system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Sādhaka said:
==

And there’s no free-market where corporate lobbyism...

Malcolm wrote:
If course there, unless you advocate government regulation. Why shouldn't corporations lobby, just as other people do. After all, they are people too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
For instance, if we were to make a review of attempts at anti-monopolistic legislation - which is the kind of legislation that would constrain the power of corporations like Monsanto - and has done historically, we would find it is mostly (but not exclusively) left-wing Democrats involved in such efforts, and that there are far fewer Republicans involved.


Sādhaka said:
Show me even one president or democrat who has even attempted to curb monsanto since that nasty corporation reared its ugly head.

I bet you can’t do it. And even if there is one, it is likely a ‘outlier’ like Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, RFK JR., or Tulsi Gabbard.

Malcolm wrote:
Monsanto no longer exists. It was bought out by Bayer. That’s called “the free market.” Or are you complaining about a lack government regulation here (which is strange, ‘cause I thought you were a libertarian of some species).

Gabbard is a Russian useful idiot, or at least she plays one on Fox. RFK jr. is a dangerous, anti-science kook.  Cynthia McKinney, like everyone presently in the Green Party , is irrelevant. Ralph is helped Bush II over the finish line.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:




Sādhaka said:
The thing a lot of you guys keep failing to get, is that the leftists also further the agenda of oligarchs. It’s both sides.

Malcolm wrote:
Oligarchs don’t need their agendas furthered, that’s why we call them “oligarchs.” But which oligarchs did you have in mind? A faceless, anonymous, shadowy cabal secretly ruling the world, or did you have some names in mind?

Shinjin said:
You never heard of illuminati?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
The culture war uses the beliefs of US Christian fundamentalists to further the agendas of US oligarchs and will destroy the planet for all of us.


Sādhaka said:
The thing a lot of you guys keep failing to get, is that the leftists also further the agenda of oligarchs. It’s both sides.

Malcolm wrote:
Oligarchs don’t need their agendas furthered, that’s why we call them “oligarchs.” But which oligarchs did you have in mind? A faceless, anonymous, shadowy cabal secretly ruling the world, or did you have some names in mind?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 13th, 2022 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Conspiracy theory much?

You really do not understand America.

Bundokji said:
Having state secrets is no conspiracy. I have read documents obtained from US national archives in the past. Some content remains confidential even after releasing the documents into the public domain. The election process, especially on the federal level, is often described as a vote of confidence, and this includes the handling of states secrets in a responsible way.

If Trump retained states secrets selectively, then what would the content be? he is known to act according to whatever serves his agenda. His base seem to believe that his agenda is inline with public interest (i.e draining the swamp).

American politics was more predictable before the involvement of an outsider (Trump) who does not adhere to the rules, at least in the way they were implemented by the presidents and politicians who preceded him.

I do not claim to understand America. My conjecture is limited to this particular case.

How would "Understanding America" falsify the above?

Malcolm wrote:
Your conspiracy theory that FBI raided Mar a Logo to protect other politicians is what I was referring to. You have no basis for such a speculation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Bundokji said:
I guess the content of whatever Trump retained in his private residence causes damage to his political opponents, and he kept it as an insurance/ political blackmailing if his opponents overstep in hunting him. If this is the case, revealing the content is no one's interest. While these would still be state secrets, the FBI's interference would appear as designed to protect those of whom the content would be damaging (most probably establishment politicians). Publicizing what could appear as national security sensitive issue (such as nuclear documents - which Trump denied) might help save the public image and neutrality of the FBI.


Malcolm wrote:
Conspiracy theory much?

You really do not understand America.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: "Becoming Who I Was" - yangsi expelled from monastery?
Content:
stoneinfocus said:
Tulshuk Lingpa's yangsi was not enthroned despite being recognized, and he left the monastery to live a normal, if somewhat troubled, life (but as last heard from, wanted to go back to Dharma more seriously).

Not the same, but the idea is that these sorts of things happen. A tulku is not enthroned. A tulku is abandoned. A tulku leaves the Dharma. A "tulku" becomes a Russian spokesperson in Ukraine (*cough Steven Seagal cough*).

Even a Khyentse tulku (Khyentse Chokyi Wangchuk, uncle of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche) was essentially thrown aside in favor of Khyentse Chokyi Lodro. Politics, corruption, human nonsense, etc...results in some weird things happening.

Malcolm wrote:
The institution of tulkus is irredeemably corrupt.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/08/11/us/fbi-cincinnati-shooting-news#fbi-cincinnati-armed-person

Unknown said:
Gunman Tried to Breach Cincinnati F.B.I. Office, Officials Say: Live Updates

Man suspected of trying to breach the F.B.I.’s Cincinnati office may have Jan. 6 ties.

Investigators are looking into whether the man who tried to breach the F.B.I.’s field office in Cincinnati on Thursday had ties to extremist groups, including one that participated in the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, according to two law enforcement officials familiar with the matter.

The suspect, identified by the officials as Ricky Shiffer, 42, seems to have appeared in a video posted on Facebook on Jan. 5, 2021, showing him attending a pro-Trump rally at Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington the night before the Capitol was stormed.

In May, a Twitter user named Ricky Shiffer replied to a photograph of rioters scaling the walls of the Capitol on Jan. 6 with a message that claimed he was present at the building and seemed to place the blame for the attack on people other than supporters of former President Donald J. Trump.

“I was there,” the message read. “We watched as your goons did that.”

Mr. Shiffer was not charged with any crimes in connection with the Jan. 6 attack.

In another Twitter post, the same user wrote about the far-right nationalist group the Proud Boys.

“Save ammunition, get in touch with the Proud Boys and learn how they did it in the Revolutionary War, because submitting to tyranny while lawfully protesting was never the American way,” the message read.

A representative for the F.B.I. declined to comment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



kirtu said:
No.  Democracy is the guarantee of civil liberties to all citizens/people in the country first and then the guarantee of equal access to the decision making process in some form (and this varies widely in actual democracies).

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, this is just not the case.

kirtu said:
This is exactly the case and all real democracies have civil rights at their center (although even they don't necessarily practice perfectly).

https://freedomhouse.org/ and the Economist Intelligence Unit's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index disagrees with you.  Even the Cato Institute with it's Freedom Index disagrees with your sort of facile presentation.

They also disagree with my facile presentation as they all go beyond merely civil liberties as the core + equal representation/participation in the governing process but both of those elements are critical to all three of their evaluations.

Malcolm wrote:
American Democracy has but slowly allowed equal access to all citizens, it's only in the 1960's where this was really the case. But we are the oldest modern democracy on the world, and it is undeniable that the nonviolent transfer of power is the key feature of democracy, and has been since John Adams handed power over to Jefferson in 1800. Without the peaceful transfer of power, votes don't matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/trump-fbi-mar-a-lago-search-republican-reaction/671104/

People are unhinged. Cult mania. People are tripping.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, these people have serious personality disorders:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



kirtu said:
Watergate.  How quaint!  That was merely completely unconstitutional from start to finish.  What we see now is nothing less than the deliberate destruction of America's long-standing faux-democracy.

Malcolm wrote:
Democracy is the nonviolent transfer of power.

kirtu said:
No.  Democracy is the guarantee of civil liberties to all citizens/people in the country first and then the guarantee of equal access to the decision making process in some form (and this varies widely in actual democracies).

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, this is just not the case. The outcome of citizen participation, which is varied in various democracies, is the nonviolent transfer of power. This is the key feature of democracy that is absent in all other forms of government, where succession is invariably the outcome of death or violence.

Even though citizens vote in Russia, it is not a democracy, etc., the same goes for Hungary.

Trump’s continued attempt to overthrow the government is shocking because it was violent and planned for months. Why he isn’t sitting in jail is beyond imagination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 11:55 AM
Title: Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?
Content:
ddorje said:
It seems to be talked about in many different ways.
I can understand if it’s in the context tshog sha

Malcolm wrote:
All meals are supposed to be ganapujas. When the tantras talk pure and impure food, they are not talking about feces vs. filet mignon. They are talking about meat (outcast) versus vegetarian (twiceborn), etc.

Konchog1 said:
So ideally should we be eating meat and drinking alcohol at all meals?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily, however we are supposed to,understand our food as the five amritas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?
Content:


ddorje said:
With all due respect to this idea Malcolm, how do we account for Tulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche (who directly encouraged a group teaching I was in to be vegan), or Chatral Rinpoche who encouraged vegetarianism?

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve heard of such opinions. My teachers all reject this point of view as appropriate advice for Vajrayana practitioners.

“Those who eat meat have compassion.”
— Hevajra Tantra

kirtu said:
It is undeniable that some very great TB lamas are in fact more or less giving their students a kind of "out" re: meat eating (I'm not sure they understand veganism - e.g. Garchen R saying that "cheese" was an acceptable substitute - hardly an out for a dogmatic vegan).

One of my teachers, a Nyingma khenpo, explicitly told a vegan student that they didn't have to actually eat meat but could put it to their lips without eating it.  The vegan didn't follow up with more objections.

Malcolm wrote:
Chinese Buddhist influence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
conebeckham said:
Watergate was child’s play compared to what is happening now.

kirtu said:
Watergate.  How quaint!  That was merely completely unconstitutional from start to finish.  What we see now is nothing less than the deliberate destruction of America's long-standing faux-democracy.

Malcolm wrote:
Democracy is the nonviolent transfer of power. That is it’s essence. We’ve quite successfully done this since Washington stepped down. Trump was the exception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of different opinions. The Dzogchen opinion is different.

Seeker12 said:
Dudjom Lingpa of course is specifically talking about Dzogchen in the quote shared.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't read your quote: but while we are at it:

The stage of liberation is first.

-- String of Pearls Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:



Kai lord said:
Thats also the opinion of Jigten Sumgon who argued that there are no such thing as sudden type, every practitioners should be considered as gradual type since they get to practice Mantrayana and liberated within their single lifetime after eons of accumulating merits and purification practices

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of different opinions. The Dzogchen opinion is different.

Kai lord said:
While I understand why the Chinese buddhists especially the northern/southern Chan debated over sudden vs gradual issue for centuries, I found the Tibetans' debate over the same issue amusing since they practically teach that even the laziest and most dull student can gain Enlightenment within 16 lifetimes simply by keeping their samaya pure as opposed to eons of hard practice in the common vehicle.

Malcolm wrote:
We are already liberated. We just need to understand that. Awakening isn't something that can be attained, since awakening is our primordial state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:
Seeker12 said:
So although it may be sudden in this particular bodymind, that's not to say that one just sort of randomly happens to stumble upon it without any previous causes. As such you might argue that there is a gradual process to reach sudden realization, perhaps.

Kai lord said:
Thats also the opinion of Jigten Sumgon who argued that there are no such thing as sudden type, every practitioners should be considered as gradual type since they get to practice Mantrayana and liberated within their single lifetime after eons of accumulating merits and purification practices

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of different opinions. The Dzogchen opinion is different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
Hopefully it is not too far off topic but how far on the Bhumi's does common Mahayana say a practitioner can go in a single life time?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on who you ask. According Chan/Zen, just one lifetime.

Nicholas2727 said:
What about other Mahayana schools? Such as Tien'Tai, Hua Yen,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I think so.

Nicholas2727 said:
or Sutric Tibetan Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
Strong no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
Hopefully it is not too far off topic but how far on the Bhumi's does common Mahayana say a practitioner can go in a single life time?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on who you ask. According Chan/Zen, just one lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Seasonality in the efficacy of different practices
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I suppose this is mostly a Vajrayana/Dzogchen question:

I have read and been taught in various ways about structuring practice by the cycle of day and night, but I don’t recall reading similar instructions on how to adjust practice according to season, can anyone point me to a text or teaching on this?

Malcolm wrote:
We generally try to chulen practices in the spring, when our white element is increasing, for example.

as Archie says, we tend to do most Dzogchen practices in the early spring and autumn, when humidity is low, and the sky is clear.

Of course, we can recite the Aspiration of Great Power on the solstices, equinoxes, and so on. Some people, following the Tibetan custom do a lot of wrathful practice (dgu gtor) at the end of the year to ward off negativities. There is Dzamling Chisang, which usually falls in july, which is the anniversary of Gesar doing a sang to purify the world of contamination, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Enlightenment in one lifetime and  is all over the place in the Pali Canon, including the “sudden” variety. Granted, it’s a different conception enlightenment

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. Freedom means being free from afflictions. This is same in Hinayāna and Mahāyāna, the insight that burns away the afflictions is fundamentally the same, and the same fetters are relinquished at the path of seeing of both vehicles. The real difference is whether the practitioner aspires to full buddhahood or not. The latter is typically is said to require eons of practice gathering the two accumulations in order to gain (a limited species of) omniscience as well as freedom. This is the reason why sudden awakening is contentious in Mahāyāna schools, with some like Chan/Zen, Dzogchen, and Mahāmudra, accepting the concept, where as other schools, generally Indian-based general Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna reject the idea. In the case of the latter, they merely theorize that the special methods of Vajrayāna allow one to gather the two accumulations required for buddhahood in a single lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Queequeg said:
Just remembered...

Misfits.

Camp horror punk. Some of my only music that my kids kind of like.

Malcolm wrote:
Spawn of kiss and the ramones…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
While I personally enjoyed English Punk a bit more (4 Skins, Cockney Rejects, Crass, GBH, Stranglers, Pistols, etc.) Black Flag was one of the few American bands I liked as well.

conebeckham said:
The Sex Pistols were not even a band, honestly.

Stranglers were great.  But I think the greatest punk bands were the DK's and the Ramones. Blag Flag were also great.

PeterC said:
Coincidentally...I haven't seen it but it's now on Hulu

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/05/danny-boyle-sex-pistols-show-hulu-fact-fiction

Malcolm wrote:
Hilarious show.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Shinjin said:
I'm predicting a red wave. Inflation is killing the average working man and they want a change. On top of that we are now in a recession.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Abortion will be the defining issue in the midterms. Its is already clear from the Kansas referendum. There is no way forward for a red wave. Inflation is world wide, so, not BIden's fault (and actually it is Trump's fault because the tariffs he imposed are a major factor causing inflation), and we are not in a recession -- job growth is explosive. Stop watching Fox news. It's rotting your brain.

Shinjin said:
I don't watch FOX and technically we are in a recession. Even according to your beloved CNN.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not in a recession:

https://www.dallasfed.org/research/economics/2022/0802

Shinjin said:
U.S. Likely Didn’t Slip into Recession in Early 2022 Despite Negative GDP Growth

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/billconerly/2022/07/05/already-in-recession-close-but-not-quite-in-july-2022/?sh=565de29fc1bf

Shinjin said:
Already In Recession? Close But Not Quite In July 2022

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/28/1113649843/gdp-2q-economy-2022-recession-two-quarters

Shinjin said:
What are the markers of a recession?
The NBER says the "traditional definition" of a recession is "a significant decline in economic activity that is spread across the economy and that lasts more than a few months."

Employment is a part of the group's calculus, and the labor market has continued to show signs of strength. In June, the unemployment rate held steady at 3.6%, which is near its pre-pandemic low, and the economy added 372,000 jobs.

"I don't think the NBER would look at the data right now and say the economy is in a recession," says Michael Gapen, the chief U.S. economist at Bank of America Securities.

But it's unclear how much Americans will care about whether the current economy satisfies a specific, highly-technical definition, or it doesn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 10th, 2022 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
conebeckham said:
The numbers are shrinking, leaving only the most hardcore, deluded Trumpists.  But they are the most vocal.  Meanwhile, a portion of the GOP will take up the banner of "unjust action" etc.  Even those who privately wish Trump would go away will publicly sign on to this movement, if the GOP takes over the house.

DNS said:
Midterms now only 3 months away and will be interesting. If the Republicans don't at least take control of the House, they will blame it on all of the Trump-baggage and probably move towards DeSantis or someone else.

If the Democrats do badly, they will blame it on Biden and might look to someone else for 2024, maybe Newsom.

Left coast vs. Right coast (California-Florida), left-wing vs. right-wing

Shinjin said:
I'm predicting a red wave. Inflation is killing the average working man and they want a change. On top of that we are now in a recession.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Abortion will be the defining issue in the midterms. Its is already clear from the Kansas referendum. There is no way forward for a red wave. Inflation is world wide, so, not BIden's fault (and actually it is Trump's fault because the tariffs he imposed are a major factor causing inflation), and we are not in a recession -- job growth is explosive. Stop watching Fox news. It's rotting your brain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Queequeg said:
I don't know. This is brute force. This is (hopefully) a finishing move.

Malcolm wrote:
The Deep State Strikes Back!

At least this is how it will be marketed for fundraising...

The cancer is Citizen's United and the present SCOTUS.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
DNS said:
Breaking News!

FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago right now.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-08/former-us-president-donald-trump-says-fbi-agents-raiding-mar-a-lago


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 9th, 2022 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: Christian apologetics vs Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I can think of any stream of teachings I’m aware of, and they all recognize that some people won’t     be able to grok Dharma.

Konchog1 said:
There are Mahayana Sutras where Shravakas can't understand or accept what they hear.

There are Tantras that have Bodhisattvas react the same way.

It's all about merit.

Malcolm wrote:
There are even tantras where buddhas react that way. It's just a literary device to emphasize the profundity of the teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 8th, 2022 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Archie2009 said:
Musicians who haven't mastered their instruments hold very limited appeal to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, quite honestly, I don't listen to much punk rock these days.

But it was fun back in the day...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 8th, 2022 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Archie2009 said:
Living Colour (in the 80s & 90s)?

Malcolm wrote:
The Pistols are just exemplars. In reality, there was a whole movement against the arena rock extravagance which priced out poor kids in late 70's, especially in England, where youth unemployment was +40%.

Tons of great bands, often started by kids who could not play their instruments, who sort of managed it all as they went along.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 7:35 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


conebeckham said:
The Sex Pistols were not even a band, honestly.

Malcolm wrote:
Blasphemy. They were the last great rock and roll band.

PeterC said:
Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters, even Guns and Roses all postdate them, and unlike the sex pistols they could actually play their instruments…

Malcolm wrote:
Without the Pistols, no Nirvana.

Buts it is undeniable that the Pistols killed Rock and Roll. And it was mainly Sid who couldn’t play. Chrissy Hind taught Steve Jones how to play guitar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 12:06 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


conebeckham said:
The Sex Pistols were not even a band, honestly.

Malcolm wrote:
Blasphemy. They were the last great rock and roll band.

Never liked the Dead Kennnedies.

But I mean there are a ton of other bands worth mentioning, like the slits, wire, pop group, rema rema, of course I have to mention seeing James white and the blacks at Max’s Kansas City in ‘78, and Garbage at a loft party in Soho. Lydia lunch. Regret not seeing Joy Division, all time favorite…Iggy Pop…I could go on…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 11:41 AM
Title: Re: Someone go tell DJKR
Content:


PeterC said:
And the US is absolutely interested in regime change in china, apart from a few short haituses in the Nixon and Clinton eras it always has been.

Malcolm wrote:
Given that China has become an Orwellian nightmare…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It takes three days for consciousness to separate from the body. As you say, we can do all of the above; but have we really? No.

Matt J said:
Actually, NDE researchers have done all that--- but within the narrow band "near" death but obviously prior to irrevocable death. But yes, it is not actual death, which is why they are called "near death" experiences. But the point is not that they are in fact actual representations of what happens when we pass the point of irreversible death, rather the point is that with diminished brain function, there is an incredible experience some have that is unlike other experiences (dreams, hallucinations, etc.). It is merely one part of a growing challenge to the physicalist notion that consciousness is produced by the brain (example include terminal lucidity, hydrocephaly where people with 5% of the their brain function normally; etc.).

Of course, a more relevant discussion might be had by digging into what Dr. Greyson's DOPS colleague Dr. Jim Tucker has recorded with respect to past life memories of young children, including intermission memories from death to rebirth.

Malcolm wrote:
A dream by Buddhists definition is not the same as a dream by western science definition. You assert these things are not dreams based on a physicalist paradigm. I assert they are dreams because they are just the activation of traces because of the vāyu of the body is moving back out of the heart cakra's eight nadis prior to regaining consciousnesses.

So, different paradigm, not commensurable with each other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:


fckw said:
Then why are there repeated dismissive discussions in this forum about <random person XYZ> on the internet who takes up the role of a teacher if in principle everyone who has completed some formal requirement can and is allowed to do it? There is a big discrepancy between what you're saying and how - particularly in this forum, but also elsewhere - students are actually treating things.

Malcolm wrote:
I cannot be responsible for the education of everyone.

fckw said:
Just look at the endless discussions about Nankhai Norbu's succession and the lack thereof. There are plenty of people in that organisation who fulfilll the formal requirements for this or that practice, so why is not just everyone rejoicing? If they would take your words to their hearts, then there should be plenty of teachers giving plenty of empowerments.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and I have encouraged some people in the DC to step up. But they look at an old letter written 8 years ago, and treat it like the Koran. So, what to do?

fckw said:
Pointing to some supposedly formal requirement according to some Vajrayana texts is not enough. It's like having a law that just nobody is following. It's the actual practice that matters. And in actual practice I observe a dance around teachers that I just cannot subscribe to. And this dance, I keep my stance, in my view directly plays into covering up bad conduct in sanghas of Tibetan Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of problems: my problem and not my problem. Which is this for you? For me, this is not my problem at all. Life is short. Don't waste it on nonessentials.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Someone go tell DJKR
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's not really his fault-- there is no sustained discourse in Buddhism on governance and democracy, or for that matter, ethics. Nor should there be. But when your whole world view revolves around the idea that a religion has all the answers for the secular problems of health care, international relations, social justice, etc., you are bound to come up short in your understanding of the world around you and its issues.

Queequeg said:
I don't agree with bolded, but don't strongly disagree.

I believe that Dharma is applicable to everyday life, including civic life.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as a matter of personal conduct it is fine. But Dharma was not taught to resolve major social issues, etc., it is for personal evolution.


Queequeg said:
Nagarjuna I think hit the right tenor in his Jeweled Garland. Nagasena's distance from King Milinda is also instructive. Of course, Buddha's relationship with Bimbisara and Udayana, and his approval of the democratic Vajjians is also instructive. Many other sages have navigated the relationship with rulers well.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist ethical discourse up till now has been rather stunted by its long term association with absolute monarchs. What's the point of writing about ethics when it is as likely to get you murdered by an angry king as listened to by a kindly one?

Anyway, no text like the Nicomachean Ethics was ever produced in Buddhist circles in India, probably because Kautiliya's Arthaśastra was sufficient.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce.

fckw said:
Of course Vajrayana makes the claim that teachers must have a special sauce, the special sauce being "realization".

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, the whole system of Vajrayāna is based on ordinary people being able to transmit empowerments and so on, having satisfied basic requirements of mantra recitation, etc., because the principle of Vajrayāna empowerment is based on the teacher arranging a specific kind of dependent origination on the continuum of the student, etc. If the guru performing the empowerment is also a realized person, so much the better, but it is not a requirement. Is it better for you to think the teacher is realized, sure, since it causes confidence. Further, there is mundane realization, and transcendent realization. One can be realized and be below the path of seeing. I think you are a bit out of your depth here, frankly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Someone go tell DJKR
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's not really his fault-- there is no sustained discourse in Buddhism on governance and democracy, or for that matter, ethics.

Konchog1 said:
The Golden Light Sutra promotes absolute monarchy and Buddhist history promotes it as well, e.g. Ashoka and the Dharma Emperors.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/original-texts/sutra-texts/sutra-of-golden-light/royal-treatise-entitled-the-inviolable-commitments-of-divine-kings

Malcolm wrote:
Aṣoka was hardly a virtuous king. After he converted to Buddhadharma, he had 18,000 Jains executed on the basis of a cartoon. He placed a price on the heads of Jain mendicants, until his own brother was killed by a farmer and his wife for the bounty. They mistook Ashoka's brother for a Jain mendicant, and brought his head to Ashoka for payment.

The divine right of kings as well as absolute monarchy is rejected by Aryadeva. He points out kings rule only by the consent of the governed, thus rejecting absolute monarchy. The Yogic Deeds of Bodhisattvas, p. 118, states:

Society's servant, paid with a sixth part, 
why have you become so arrogant?
Your becoming the agent of actions
depends on being placed in control.

The above passage also is relevant to the tulku system and so on.

The rest of the chapter demolishes the idea advanced in this rather late Mahāyāna sūtra:
Blessed by divine kings they enter into their mother’s womb; being first blessed by gods, afterwards, they enter her womb.
Once born in the human world, they become kings of humans. From gods they are born; thus they are called ‘divine son.’
On this point, Aryadeva rejects the divine right of kings, p. 127:

When all power and wealth
are produced by merit, 
it cannot be said that this one
will be not a basis for power and wealth.

In other words, it is the accumulation of merit alone that determines wealth and power, not some divine benediction from worldly devas. And further, everyone can gather merit. So everyone is equal.

Thus, I regard the sūtra passage above to be completely provisional, culturally determined,  and something which can be safely ignored in the modern context. Its general message about wicked rulers, etc. is totally fine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Queequeg said:
Yes, in case it wasn't known. Greg Ginn et al. Were one of the all time greatest punk bands.

Malcolm wrote:
While I personally enjoyed English Punk a bit more (4 Skins, Cockney Rejects, Crass, GBH, Stranglers, Pistols, etc.) Black Flag was one of the few American bands I liked as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Queequeg said:
sincere question here.

Doesn't such an unexamined and ubiquitous system pose a danger of engendering bias mistaken for objectivity?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see how. It is as simple as: This is where you start (NYC). This is the method (train, car, plane). This is the result (LA).

BTW, Midtown has a serious trash issue. The rats are as big as cats. Adams really needs to increase Sanitation. It's disgusting that NYC is so filthy, the city really needs to clean up its act. It's a bad look and it's a public health hazard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://www.brookings.edu/research/white-and-youth-population-losses-contributed-most-to-the-nations-growth-slowdown-new-census-data-reveals/

A development that will only exacerbate white nationalist paranoia...


Malcolm wrote:
http://www.dementlieu.com/users/obik/arc/blackflag/int_ripper6.html

Queequeg said:
I've heard a number of different people's ideas of what your song "White Minority" is about. What's your explanation of it?
GREG: The idea behind it is to take somebody that thinks in terms of "White Minority" as being afraid of that, and make them look as outrageously stupid as possible. The fact that we had a Puerto Rican (Ron) singing it was what made the sarcasm of it obvious to me. Some people seem to want to take it another way, and somehow think that we'd be so dumb to where a Puerto Rican guy would sing it and it would be--I don't know how they could consider that racist, but people took it that way.
CHUCK: It's one of those things. It's like the flyer for this gig (a naked superman flying through the air with a hard-on). It draws out peoples' existing attitudes. If someone is afraid that they're racist or something, then they're gonna call it racist.
GREG: Or they would like to say, "Oh, Black Flag--racists." It's people that don't like us, basically.
CHUCK: If someone IS racist, they'll use it for an anthem, for a while, but it's so polarized, that if you do it for a little while, it starts to get a little bit ludicrous.
GREG: It throws that attitude out and makes people think. To me, that's what it does. It doesn't preach, but it makes people think.
CHUCK: The fact that there is a controversy means it accomplished its goal.
GREG: It's not a kind of song that has a long term emotional impact or value to us. We don't even play it all the time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
Sādhaka said:
What separates Vajrayana from other religions, is the very advanced esoteric methods.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what separates Vajrayāna Buddhism from other religions is that it is Buddhist, and therefore, it is based on the view of dependent origination and emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Someone go tell DJKR
Content:



Passing By said:
Complex or not, let's not kid ourselves that any of these so called "leaders" and warmongers on any side give two f***s about you, me, or any of the lives they wreck in all nations involved as well as the generational hatreds they entrench once the shooting starts.

PeterC said:
An easy thing to say.  But what guidance does it give us?


Passing By said:
That one can understand where DJKR is coming from with this. Sure his history and presentation might be subpar but one can at least understand his intent.

He, at least I think....is trying to get his followers (students?) not to blindly lap up whatever any media feeds them and join the "slay the evil nation/group of people and the world will be magically alright" bandwagon. Are his examples and communication bad? Well yeah....but the intention is one that is sorely needed these days

Malcolm wrote:
Despite its flaws, do you really want to live in a world where America steps back and lets the rest of the world go to hell? Just look at the chaos Trump unleashed with the brief period of isolationism he indulged in. In any case, American isolationism is bad for democracy internationally. This was acutely demonstrable during the Hoover Administration, and later, during the Trump administration.

Democracy, the nonviolent transfer of power, is an extraordinarily delicate form of government. This is why liberal democracies formed alliances with each other in the early twentieth century, surviving both fascism and communism. These alliances need to continue to foster liberal democracy, as Ukraine so clearly shows. It's a matter of our survival. Recall that the first impeachment was over Trump's attempt to undermine Ukrainian democracy by blackmailing them with weapons in order to try and get dirt on Biden.

Dzongsar fails to understand this as he spends all his time listening to old fools like Chomsky (so far left his positions are now rightwing) and Mearsheimer (appeasement). Dzongsar's politics have not evolved a whit from the sort of campus radicals I saw in Cambridge, Ma, in the 1980's. Of course, it is not his job to be expert in international affairs, and so on. But the sources he chooses are not serious.

It's not really his fault-- there is no sustained discourse in Buddhism on governance and democracy, or for that matter, ethics. Nor should there be. But when your whole world view revolves around the idea that a religion has all the answers for the secular problems of health care, international relations, social justice, etc., you are bound to come up short in your understanding of the world around you and its issues.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Matt J said:
Well, you do have veridical OBEs, in which a person reports leaving their physical body and observing the external environment--- at the time of a flatline in some cases, or the expected flatline (i.e. 15-20 seconds after cardiac arrest). We can then check their observations against witnesses who weren't undergoing OBEs (doctors, medical staff etc.). We can then compare their reports against people who did not have OBEs but who have undergone the procedures, and compare the accuracy. In addition, NDErs may report highly idiosyncratic behavior (such as a surgeon flapping his hands like a chicken). This can assist in correlating the timing.

Malcolm wrote:
It takes three days for consciousness to separate from the body. As you say, we can do all of the above; but have we really? No.

It's all still completely anecdotal at this point.

The problem with the whole Buddhist NDE thing is that it mixing systems, science on the one hand, with its definition of death; with Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, with its much more elaborate definition of death.

From the western Medical POV, flatlined patients will not survive more than five minutes.

Matt J said:
Most of these resurgences in heart activity occurred between 1 or 2 minutes after the heart had stopped. They were usually only  a single heartbeat long, or less than 5 seconds in duration.

The study suggests that protocols around organ donation should stick to the 5-minute convention, given that no one's heart restarted again after a gap longer than 4 minutes and 20 seconds, Dhanani said. Transplant teams should be prepared for the possibility that they might have to adjust their timing if a patient's heart does restart. Ultimately, he said, the research should help standardize organ donation processes internationally.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.livescience.com/flatlining-death-heartbeats-continue.html

Referenced article:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022713

This means that all these NDE's and OBE's are occurring within a five minute period, and this means that consciousness has not left the body, etc. There are occasional outliers, like the woman in Spain whose heart started beating again after six hours, because she went into hypothermia:
Hypothermia had protected her body and brain from deteriorating while unconscious, Mr Argudo said, despite also bringing her to the brink of death.

In a race against time, doctors treating Mrs Schoeman turned to a specialised machine capable of removing blood, infusing it with oxygen and reintroducing it to the patient.

Once her body temperature had reached 30C, they used a defibrillator to jump-start her heart some six hours after emergency services were contacted.

Mrs Schoeman was released from hospital 12 days later, with only some lingering issues with the mobility and sensitivity of her hands due to the hypothermia.

He added: "If she had been in cardiac arrest for this long at a normal body temperature, she would be dead."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50681489


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
fckw said:
I keep repeating my claim: Yes, there IS something very specific about Vajrayana that directly plays into continuation of abusive teacher/student relationships. It is the practice of guru yoga in the widest sense, including seeing the guru with pure perception. This does not exist as a practice in any other Buddhist tradition in the same sense, at least not that I'm aware of, and it is both one of the core practices in Vajrayana that can have a tremendous growth effect - yet also one of the core contributing factors to cover up any sort of bad conduct on the guru's side. Stating that Vajrayana is just like any other religion with regards to abuse is avoiding this one point. It's not, and that is both its beauty and its ugliness.

What is NOT exclusive to Vajrayana is the claim that any teacher/holy person has some sort of transcendental, intangible, elusive magic sauce that nobody can really judge except if s/he himself has the same sauce. This claim exists in various forms in nearly every religion, be it christianity (e.g. pope who is somehow closer to god), shamanism (the shaman has a direct connection to an other-world that can neither be proven nor disproven), various schools of hinduism, and so on. In some religions it is that the magic sauce is some inspiration from god, in others it is a special knowledge that supposedly takes years and years of studies, in others yet it is rather to be born in a lineage of special people and so on. In any case, the belief that someone else has access to that secret magic sauce and one has not and therefore is capable of having deeper understanding than oneself including situations of cause and effects of abuse, this same belief equally supports the upkeeping of abusive teacher student situation.

Vajrayana has both problems to deal with, other religions have only one of them to deal with.

Malcolm wrote:
Except that Vajrayana doesn’t claim gurus are infallible, or that they have some special sauce. Indeed it us explicitly acknowledged that the since gurus are fir the most part ordinary people, we don’t relate to them liturgically that way, etc.,  so your claim is false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:



Queequeg said:
Is there a study of this system and its development?

Malcolm wrote:
I think for Tibetan Buddhists, it's like air. You never notice it, but it is essential for all life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 6:28 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:


Shunyatagarbha said:
All of which begs the proverbial question, how to understand all this in light of the visions of the leaping-across stage of meditation?  The visions are said to be objective appearances, while also arising from yourself - isn't that right?

Malcolm wrote:
You obviously do not have a teacher, and you should not be reading such texts without their personal guidance. When you have had certain experiences, in which your teacher will guide you, then you will understand many things which now you just guess at and and speculate. And if you are interested in the path of Dzogchen, that guessing and speculation is bad for your path and you can really block yourself. You've been warned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:


Shunyatagarbha said:
....
"It is thus that, without accepting some appearances and rejecting others, one essentializes the key points of the nonexistence of all appearances in the fact that they are awareness alone, the state of equality.  It is then that both appearances and the mind blend into one -

Malcolm wrote:
You need to reread section 1:5, from pp. 80-81. You have not correctly understood the text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Matt J said:
From a Western neuro-biological view, NDEs and dreams are quite different. NDEs often occur, as stated, when the brain function is below the currently accepted standards for perceptions or even consciousness generally

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh...currently accepted standards...In any case, from the outside, one cannot tell when a person is having their NDE, most people who have them are not connected to EEG machines during their traumatic health incident. As a person who has flatlined, I can tell you consciousness fights hard to stay in the body. I was pronounced DOA from an accidental drug overdose on July 3rd, 1979. They were ready to tag me and bag me, until my mother came in and said my name. My toe twitched, and they realized I was still alive. I woke up intubated, it wasn't fun.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I'm not convinced that in this case it was just like hey man it was the 70s.

Malcolm wrote:
Did you grow up in America during the 1970's?

Knotty Veneer said:
I find it difficult to believe that anyone with teenage daughters or nieces, or grandchildren would not raise immediate red flags at this sort of behavior - even in the 70s (and IIRC this actually occurred a little later in the 80s, not that it matters).

Malcolm wrote:
Things started to get more uptight in America in the 90's. The eighties were still pretty loose in many respects. I personally know more than one 13 or 14 year woman who had 25 year old boyfriends with their parents full knowledge, during the early 80's, in Cambridge, MA. As I said, hippie parents...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Queequeg said:
An informed explanation of the system, how it came to be used widely in Tibetan Buddhism, its merits, etc. would be very interesting to me, at least.

Malcolm wrote:
Javier pointed out that this scheme can be found in Yogacara, where it likely originated, especially texts like the Mahāyāna Samgraha or the Bodhisattvabhumi (which has a similar basis, path, and result scheme). In this case of that former the basis would be the ālaya-vijñāna, since it is this that needs to purified in the Yogacāra system; the case of the latter text, it would the gotra, etc. The scheme is later picked up in the tantras, and redefined on the basis of a person's continuum, as the citation I provided above.

There are always perils in any classification scheme, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
My initial response was perhaps a bit snarky, but still: people report all sorts of things after NDEs.  Some people see their dead parents sitting at the foot of Jesus' throne.  The Sweeping Zen guy became convinced that Buddhism was the work of Satan.  Some people see trippy phantasmagoria.  What are we supposed to make of any of those stories?  Either they're all meaningless, or they're all meaningful (in which case, what does that say?), or some are meaningful and others aren't.  I'm not sure how we're meant to judge in any event, and until we find some reliable way to do so, I'll keep my faith in the Triple Gem.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, they are just dreams people have when they are being revived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I think back to the Trungpa podcast thread a while back which reported on how he was witnessed by a group of adults French kissing a 13 year old girl - and they all did nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
In the 1970's, there were a lot of 13 year girls running around getting involved in relationships with older men. It's mostly bad parenting, and while illegal, no one did anything about it if the parents said nothing. Trungpa himself married a 16 year old, whom he had met when she was fifteen. People in the 1970's were not particularly conscious of the fact that it was necessarily wrong to sleep with underage women. For example, the former headmaster of my private school began a relationship with the a 14 year old (to whom he remains married to this day actually) in 1979. People's attitudes were simply different. A lot of things that people find abusive or cringy, etc., were accepted. Now, of course, these things are not very accepted at all. But then? If the parents didn't mind, well, then there was no problem.  Note, I am not defending it, this was just how it was when I was an adolescent in the 1970's. I remember camp counselors striking up relationships with some of the 14 year girls at my camp, pretty openly. circa 1974-5. If you were an underage girl, and you were sexually active, everyone considered you pretty much fair game.

Parenting had a lot to do with. Hippie parents often would not interfere with their kids. Partly because they did not want to place the sexually repressive values they suffered from in their adolescence on their own kids. Things are far more uptight now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Matt J said:
Depends on the experience and depends on who you ask. Despite protestations to the contrary, TB teachers often refer to NDEs (their own or others) as related to the Bardo process (Tulku Thondop and Mingyur Rinpoche, for example).

Malcolm wrote:
NDE's are usually a result of traumatic shock that will result in an untimely death without intervention. But since the process of dissolution is interrupted, they don't count "death" experiences since the consciousness never actually separates from the body.

Indeed, there is a method of temporarily reviving a person who is dying, so that instructions concerning bardo of dharmatā can be imparted, but actual death in a Buddhist context does not happen until the inner breath stops, and consciousness leaves the body. Since the process of dying and sleep are related, it is pretty clear that NDE's are akin to dreams when the patient is being revived. So, if they are bardo related, it is the dream bardo, not the death bardo, to which they are related, in my opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
Konchog1 said:
Where does the attitude that if your Guru is a Buddha he can do whatever he wants come from?

Malcolm wrote:
It comes from the idea that one should tolerate strange behavior on the part of one's teacher's, like Tilopa killing fish, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:



cyril said:
Are NDE phenomena such as these then an integral part of the dying process proper? Is someone who dies for good bound to have this type of experience before going through the bardo of death and so on?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. For example, a person who will be liberated at the time of death will not have any sort of experiences like this because they will die in a state of resting in luminosity.

These kinds of experiences are result of traces of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 6th, 2022 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Queequeg said:
A thought on the basis/path/result organization -

It might be interesting to take note of other ways the canon has been organized in the past.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not an organization of the canon: it's a way of distributing teachings into their relevant nodes.


Queequeg said:
This was a bit of a popular approach in Chinese Buddhism that has since influenced and defines many forms of e. Asian Buddhism.

In Tiantai alone there are four that I can think of. Huayan had it's systems.

Malcolm wrote:
These are ranking systems for deciding which sutras specifically are more important than others. That's why Javier called them "sectarian."

The ground, path, result designations cut across all range of sūtras and tantras, and has precedence in Mahāyāna path literature, like the Mahāyāna Samgraha.

For this reason, I discourage ranking systems like three turnings and so on, because they involve sectarian opinions on the relative values of this and that class of Mahāyāna sutras. For example, those who consider PP sutras to be definitive (second turning), might exclude TG sūtras form the basis category, and so on, when clearly emptiness and tathāgatagarbha are topics related to the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2022 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:


solastalgia said:
No they are not contradictory. You are continuing again to twist my words here. I never claimed that "legally somehow there could not be consent in voluntary relationships between a teacher and student".

I clearly stated in my original post that I was talking about sexual misconduct. That includes harassments, assault, etc. When it comes to spiritual teachers and students this is usually coerced through the abuse of power differential. There is no consent here. Again, I will re-post for the 3rd time, from the sexual assault attorney:

Malcolm wrote:
Your original post framed in the issue in such a way that any relationship that involved a power differential could not possibly be consensual. Either you think all teacher/student relationships that involve such power differential render consent impossible, causing all such relationships to be instances of misconduct, or you don't. It's binary.

If you think some teacher student relationships are not misconduct, then you are also admitting that power differentials are not a fact that defines misconduct, there must be some other facts in play.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2022 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
fckw said:
In my view it's about time that we understand spiritual teachers to be none other than coaches, essentially. There is no magic sauce here, just because we are dealing with things like "enlightenment" and the like. A teacher is not only supposed to be a good teacher, but s/he is supposed to have some elusive realization that nobody except a fully realized buddha can judge, and of course nobody knows who a fully realized buddha is.

Malcolm wrote:
One's guru can be a coach from their own perspective, but from one's own perspective it is better to understand they are a fully realized buddha. And since we have impure vision, when we practice Guru yoga, etc., we rarely visualize them in their own form, but rather in the form of Vajradhara, etc.

fckw said:
So, by this very logic a teacher's authority is established not by qualities such as learning and qualities in teaching but first and foremost by some transcendental, elusive realization that nobody has ever seen or touched, and that we all must believe is there, because, well, because <reason>.

Malcolm wrote:
The teacher's authority is established through one accepting someone as one's guru, fully understanding the parameters of the relationship. Sadly, many people jump into such relationships, both teachers and students, without proper examination. It is a little harder from the teacher's side, because of course we want everyone to connect with whatever teachers we offer, not for personal gain (hopefully), but because we believe in the teachings we have to give. The students have an easier time, because they can observe a given teacher for a long while and make sure a relationship with them will be fruitful before entering into a samaya relationship.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2022 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:


Gedun said:
No I would still dismiss it - title/funny hat or no. There is no way to confirm his personal experience as real or imaginary. And no way to confirm his experience is universal. Subjective accounts like this (and they are all subjective) are a waste of time.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.  You are free to ignore his the experience he shared.  Or a Delok's
[/quote]

His experience was an NDE, it has no value beyond they fact that he think he met god, Buddha, or whoever.

Is experience was not the bardo of death, nor the bardo of dharmata, nor the bardo of rebirth. He experienced the bardo of NDE. What westerner science class “death” has nothing to do with what Buddhists call death, so, using a western medical term, NDE, and interpolating that into scheme if the bardo makes no sense. His consciousness did not separate from his body, etc. if it had, it would be “death” and he would have not returned to talk about it.

The Delog phenomena is the Tibetan equivalent, but those people didn’t really die, they experienced near fatal comas, not death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 11:39 AM
Title: Re: Someone go tell DJKR
Content:
KristenM said:
DJKR’s latest FB post arguing the US is provoking China by Nancy Pelosi visiting Taiwan is ahem, interesting, I guess.

PeterC said:
He needs to stick to topics he actually knows something about, rather than trying to comment on relatively complex geopolitics that he simply doesn't understand.

KristenM said:
Yes. I’ve learned not to be surprised, like when kids learn that their parents aren’t actually perfect.

I may have gone too far by calling out a Russian troll on his post, but when people try to pass themselves off as US Generals on FB that support lame ideas, someone needs to speak up.

Malcolm wrote:
Today he both castigated Biden for eliminating bin Laden’s #2, and had a meltdown over Pelosi’s landing in Taiwan, much sycophantic handwringing ensued….


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 10:55 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What exactly is this object that is being referred to? What is this apprehender?

Shunyatagarbha said:
The apprehended would be destructible objective external things, like a pillar or a vase, and the apprehender is the mind or subjective internal mental things such as the experience of the vase.  Or more broadly, the object is the outer container of the universe and the apprehenders are the contents of that container.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to read the passage that Gyurme Kundrol mentioned, it will put an end to your silly sophistries on this point forever. You read some words and utterly failed to understand their meaning. You clearly need to find a teacher.

In this case the subject is wisdom, and the object is emptiness. When wisdom nonconceptually apprehends emptiness on the path of seeing, indeed it is true that subject and object merge, because the subject in this case cannot be distinguished from the object, since both are signless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: New History of Religions special issue on Mahāyāna sūtras
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
. So the storytellers get more creative and compose more stories, spin offs from the initial universe (like today’s superhero franchises)

Malcolm wrote:
I always wondered why Mahāyāna sutras were so loud. Now I know, they were produced by Marvel.

Bodhisatvas in Wandavision: Crypto-Buddhist Narratology in 21st Century Films


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 7:22 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:


solastalgia said:
It's not so easy to just say no to a teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
It is very easy, and the vast majority of Buddhist women I know who have been subjected to unwanted advances by Buddhist teachers have had no problem telling them to get lost.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Content:
solastalgia said:
I was recently reading a topic on here about sexual misconduct between teacher-student and saw multiple posts framing the issue within whether or not there was consent. From what I understand having researched sexual misconduct and power differentials in religious community, there is no such thing as consent when it comes to the type of power differential that exists between a spiritual teacher and student.

Malcolm wrote:
That's an opinion, not a fact.

I know many women who have been in long term relationships with their teachers, which are healthy, respectful, loving, and everything anyone would want in a relationship.

I know many women who have been hurt in such relationships.

I think the issue is with the men in question, not the power differential.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 7:12 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- So, are you saying that, according to Longchenpa, "apparent objects," as distinct from "apprehended objects,' have an existence of their own, independent of, and 'outside' of, the mind of a sentient being?

Gyurme Kundrol said:
Its refuted by Longchenpa completely in Precious Treasury of the Genuine Meaning, Berotsana Edition, page 137-139.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there as well. And as he says, one should not waste one time arguing against those assert appearances are in fact mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:



Shunyatagarbha said:
...Yes, because there are no such things as Atman and Brahman to unify...but there is a difference between Advaita nondualism, and nonduality in Buddhism.  In all Buddhist vehicles, well at least in the very highest ones, nonduality of subject and object is emphasised.

Malcolm wrote:
You have a citation for that?

Shunyatagarbha said:
Yes, Mal.

Malcolm wrote:
Malcolm, not Mal.

Shunyatagarbha said:
And it's a crackerjack: "The object to be apprehended and the apprehender blend indivisibly into in the one great state of equality. It does not happen in any other way. The apprehender and the object to be apprehended are naturally and evenly immersed in the state of self-cognizing primordial wisdom. They never fall outside this vast expanse". Khangsar Tenpe Wnagchuk.

Malcolm wrote:
This is translated somewhat incorrectly. There is no such "self-cognizing primordial wisdom", there is such thing as rang rig ye shes, which is shorthand for so sor rang gi rig pa'i ye shes, which in turn is the translation of pratyatmyavedanajñāna, that is, "personally intuited gnosis," i.e. gnosis which one has realized for oneself.

Now to the meat:

What exactly is this object that is being referred to? What is this apprehender?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2022 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?” It is possible, it is called “vidyā” (rig pa). The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated wisdom, and then the pure basis of the mental consciousness (free from the root of apprehending subject and apprehended objects) bring samsara to an end. The pristine consciousness (ye shes, jñāna) of one’s vidyā (without root or leaf) — naturally perfected as it totally encompasses and subsumes everything — is the true state [de kho na nyid, tattva]."

"The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects."

Malcolm wrote:
Thus, rig pa has objects.

And

Jules 09 said:
- So, are you saying that, according to Longchenpa, "apparent objects," as distinct from "apprehended objects,' have an existence of their own, independent of, and 'outside' of, the mind of a sentient being?

Malcolm wrote:
Absolutely this is the case, they exist as dependently originated phenomena through their own causes and conditions which are to be understood through the eight examples of illusion.

Jules 09 said:
In which case, how is it possible for you to assert that with any certainty?

Malcolm wrote:
How can you be certain you are posting on Dharmawheel on a computer in one place and I am reading your responses on another computer somewhere else? Am I merely your mental projection offering disagreeable and insulting responses to your sincere and heartfelt inquiries? If this is actually the case, you have nothing other than your own mind to blame for insulting itself. Otherwise, you have to accept I am an apparent object, etc. and we can cease with this silly charade of questioning the existence of external objects, dependently originated and illusory though they may be. Some things are just matters of fact, like the existence of things outside mind and its appearances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:


Jules 09 said:
"Do not divide appearances as being there and awareness as being here.
Let appearance and awareness be indivisible."

- Tulku Urgyen

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, appearances, but not apparent objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


yagmort said:
how many masters do you know who maintain the living practice lineage of Vima Nyingthig nowadays? from what i gather, it is not practiced.



Malcolm wrote:
Where do you think three words of Garab Dorje is from, Shri Simha's Soaring Garuda? Etc. Jamgon Kongtrul has a whole, beautiful commentary marrying the mother and child Nyinthigs. The Vima Nyinthig is quite alive and well. It is the aorta through which the heartblood of the 17 tantras is pumped. All the rest of the Nyinthigs are subsidiary to it.

Most commentaries on Dzogchen Nyinthig have people start with the two accumulations, refuge through guru yoga, and then skip directly to rushan, trekcho, and thogal, such as the Third Karmapa's commentary on the Vima Nyinthig, Terdak Lingpa's commmentary on Khandro Nyinthig, his daughter's commentary on Konchog Chidu, Rigzin Chenpo Pema Thrinly's commentary on the essence of the Gongpa Zangthal, which is a short text, and is the main text by which meaning of the Gongpa Zangthal is practiced, etc. There is the Chetsun Nyinthig, which is widespread these days. The Thigle Gyacan is a recitation as well, but it is not practice in the manner of creation and completion in the standard Mahāyoga way.

But the important thing, as always, is to follow your GURU's instructions about what to practice, and stop worrying about what other people practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Western Dzogchenpa has NDE, Becomes Perennialist
Content:
Gedun said:
If he was Tibetan and had a title then the commentary from the peanut gallery would likely be very different, and not so boring and dismissive.

Malcolm wrote:
You don't know Dharmawheel very well...

Anyway, near-death experiences are not what the bardo teachings are talking about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Passing By said:
is it critical how one defines external and internal with regards to objects?

Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of studying such tenets is to eliminate concepts, in this case, the concept, "there is nothing outside the mind/rigpa." So while it is fine to assert appearances as established as mind, it is not fine to assert "apparent objects" are established as mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: How is sadhana practice done?
Content:
Dharmalight889 said:
Been reading more on Tantra and I am a bit confused on how sadhana practice is done? Does one always just read and follow the instructions/visualizations in the sadhana? Or does one learn it and then carry it out without the sadhana? Must the entire thing be memorized or is reading it and following along okay?

Thanks all!

Malcolm wrote:
You learn thus from a qualified teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: "Esoteric Community"??
Content:
Shunyatagarbha said:
The Robert Thurman group of pandits has for a since a long time ago hit upon this creative English translation of the name Guhyasamaja: ' "the esoteric community" which has always bothered me.  I have even seen it termed as "the secret society"...! Which gives it an unwanted connotation.  What do people think about this translation and what is a better one?  "Gathering of Secrets"?  I really don't know how they came up with "esoteric community".  Does anyone with more knowledge of the text know if there is material from within it that specifically supports this curious translation?

Malcolm wrote:
You should read some commentaries of the text to see how the name is parsed by Indian commentators.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
oldbob said:
There are no words that capture Pure Perfect Presence.

So if you want to understand what Jim Valby, or any insider means by pure Perfect Presence,

Shunyatagarbha said:
It looks like that idea was what is the underlying Tibetan term translated as Pure Perfect Presence because between the various modern English translators, they seem to maybe translate different words by the same English term, e.g., in different place both rigpa and bodhicitta seem to end up as "presence", which is somewhat confusing.  I think the idea was to determine if here it was rigpa or bodhicitta being called "presence", and it would appear that it is the latter.

Malcolm wrote:
The term being translated as "presence" is sems, citta. There is no subject or object in byang chub sems because byang chub sems in the "mind series" term for emptiness free from four extremes.

Longchenpa describes this as follows:

"Bodhicitta, which is not established in any way, becomes the basis for everything, like space. It's potential (rtsal) has an unceasing mode of arising. like a mirror. Play is the phenomena arising as the diversity, like the eight examples of illusion. These three, from the perspective of emptiness, are nondual because they are not established in anyway. From the perspective of appearance, from the moment cognizance (rig pa), sleep, and dreams arise one after another, they have the nature of being without any basis, appearing as  bodhicitta, potential, and play. These, from the perspective of their essence, are beyond singular and diverse phenonena, from the perspective of appearance, they are conventionally described as three. When having defined their essence, when defined conventionally, since it is invalid to for play and bodhicitta to be the same, from this perspective, play is divided into appearances and apparent objects. Though there is neither inside nor outside, thorugh understanding the eight examples of illusion, though phenomena and their characteristics, and so on, are designated, it is the position of the system of the Great Perfection that they are a great, nonexistent, clear appearance."

-- pp.310-311, Lung gyi gter mdzod, Gangtok, 1983


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model
Content:


Tao said:
Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- I wouldn't be so arrogant to say that you have been taught incorrectly...

"One is operating in a state of direct perception without reification."

- Yes, and that state is free of the conceptualization of experience, meaning there are no concepts of 'internal' or 'external'.

- Do I really have to go to all the trouble of quoting Longchenpa on this for you?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually, so I can explain what you’ve misunderstood.please make sure you include pages numbers, etc.  Direct perception is nonconceptual, but if you get hit in the face with a baseball, do you remain in a state where there are no objects? The idea that being n a state of instant presence means there are are no objects is ridiculous. If that’s your point of view, it does not go behind yogacara svasamvedana.

If there is no inside and outside, do you stop for red lights? If so how?

What do you make of the instructions to leave the six senses in contact with the six sense objects?

Jules 09 said:
"In it ( Dzogpa Chenpo ) the essence ( Ngo-Bo ) of Intrinsic Awareness, the realization of the non-existence of the apprehended and apprehender, is called the spontaneously arisen primordial wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately. The essence is ka dag, emptiness. So of course when one actually realizes emptiness nothing at all is established, much less subject and object.

Jules 09 said:
But Dzogpa Chenpo doesn't assert it as self-awareness and self-clarity ( Rang-Rig Rang-gSal ) as Yogacarya, the Mind Only school does. Because (according to Dzogpa Chenpo ), as there is no existence of internal and external, it (Intrinsic Awareness) is not established as internal mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately.

Jules 09 said:
As there is no self and others, it isn't established as self-awareness. As the apprehender and apprehended have never existed, freedom from the two is not established. As it is not an object of experiences and awareness, the experience is not established as non-dual.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, but not the way you think it is.

Jules 09 said:
As there is no mind and mental events, it does not exist as self-mind. As it does not exist as clarity or non-clarity,  it is not established as self-clarity. As it transcends awareness and non-awareness, there are not even the imputations of awareness.
This is called Dzogpa Chenpo, free from extremes.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, ultimately.

Jules 09 said:
Although it is designated as self-arisen primordial wisdom, enlightened mind, ultimate body, the the naked self-clarity Intrinsic Awareness, these ascriptions are merely in order to signify it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.

Jules 09 said:
It should be realized that the self-essence (of Dzogpa Chenpo ) is inexpressible. Otherwise, if you take the meaning of the words literally, you will never find any difference from the cognition of self-awareness, self-clarity and non-duality of apprehended and apprehender of the Mind Only school."

Malcolm wrote:
Which is what I pointed out to you above.


Jules 09 said:
"(according to Dzogpa Chenpo), as there is no existence of internal and external, it (Intrinsic Awareness) is not established as internal mind."
- Hence, in the authentic state of Rigpa, Pure Perfect Prescence, there is no conception of internal or external.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta and vidyā are not the same thing. The former is the basis; that latter is the recognition of the nature of the basis, which recogniton must, in the end, also be exhausted.

Jules 09 said:
"As there is no mind and mental events,"
- Hence, authentic Rigpa is free of the conceptualization of experience.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not mean that when one is in instant presence one has no thoughts, it means that one does not chase thoughts, etc. ChNN explained this hundreds of time, "Nonconceptuality in Dzogchen teachings does not mean one has no concepts, it means one does not chase concepts."

Since you have not offered a substantive rebuttal, I am going to leave this conversation here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
it is night in Uttarakuru

Malcolm wrote:
Is north of the Hindu Kush. It is first mentioned in the Aitareya Brahmana. The Kurus were a tribe of people known to the Greeks and the Romans.

Kai lord said:
There are grounds to believe that Hyperborea and Uttarakuru could be the different names for the location of the same group of northern people.

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius has convinced himself of all kinds of strange things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


cloudburst said:
most of the Nyinthig practices are majority two stages sadhanas

Malcolm wrote:
Nyinthig, such as Longchen Nyinthig, became a fashionable name in Nyingma for Mahā/Anu yoga cycles which also have some Dzogchen teachings . However, the whole of the Vima Nyinthig, there isn't a single deity practice, not one. That cycle is the original "Nyinthig." The along came the Khandro Nyinthig, which indeed has anuyoga pratices. However. its clearly stated in this cycle that Dzogchen practitioners do not meditate on deities, we merely think we are the deity, and that is sufficient.


cloudburst said:
Of course it would be possible not to do two stages, this is also possible in mahamudra, but the type of person who can do this is vanishingly rare. It looks like selling dzogchen as its own path that is so high you dont need to engage in "lesser practices" excites a certain kind of person who hopes for quick results without doing the basic work that would allow these higher paths to function.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Anyway, I am supposed to believe you, someone who does not even practice Dzogchen as far as we know, since you are Geluk practitioner, or my Gurus, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, etc? What do you think?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Optimal seed size for bodhi mala from practical point of view
Content:
Archie2009 said:
In The Precious Vase on page 16 there is a drawing of Garab Dorje with the right leg drawn inwards as well. In everything else it is identical to the image from Guruyoga. What to make of this?

Malcolm wrote:
Reversed line drawings?

The Thanngkhas by Glenn Eddy, painted according to Rinpoche's instructions, all show the left leg extended:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Shunyatagarbha said:
Nicolas Copernicus in 1515 was the first person in recorded history to suggest that this human realm was one of the planets in the sky, and that view and his reasoning can be severely critiqued.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, no again. That person was Aristarchus of Samos (310-230 BCE). He in turn was influenced by Philolaus of Croton (470-385 BCE). Aristarchus also correctly ordered the planets according to their distance around the sun. He also understood that stars were suns, just much further away. Copernicus was somewhat aware of Aristarchus.

Seleucus of Seleucia (190-150BCE) not only held this as a hypothesis, but adopted it wholeheartedly, having proven the earth turns on its axis through reasoning now unavailable to us.

The sole reason the West maintained a geocentric model through the renaissance was because we followed Ptolemy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am talking about why the Buddha taught about cosmology to begin with, which was to inspire a sense of renunciation through the understanding that there is no refuge in all of the three realms.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Some scholars and scriptures

Malcolm wrote:
Which scholars and which scriptures?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
it is night in Uttarakuru

Malcolm wrote:
Is north of the Hindu Kush. It is first mentioned in the Aitareya Brahmana. The Kurus were a tribe of people known to the Greeks and the Romans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:




Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually, so I can explain what you’ve misunderstood.please make sure you include pages numbers, etc.  Direct perception is nonconceptual, but if you get hit in the face with a baseball, do you remain in a state where there are no objects? The idea that being n a state of instant presence means there are are no objects is ridiculous. If that’s your point of view, it does not go behind yogacara svasamvedana.

Passing By said:
Yogacarins really deny experiences?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they assert that percepts are traces activated in the all basis which are misperceived as external objects, when in fact there are no external objects at all.

Passing By said:
If they say that's because appearances and objects arise from one's own cognition isn't it just boiling down to semantics over whether tsal is an external object rather than them literally refusing to accept that they are perceiving stuff?

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa, in trying to remove the errors of some sems sde adherents, makes very forceful arguments that external objects are not negated in Dzogchen teachings. His arguments are too lengthy to reproduce here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is not Advaita. In fact, Dzogchen tantras explicitly reject nondualism and Advaita

Shunyatagarbha said:
...Yes, because there are no such things as Atman and Brahman to unify...but there is a difference between Advaita nondualism, and nonduality in Buddhism.  In all Buddhist vehicles, well at least in the very highest ones, nonduality of subject and object is emphasised.

Malcolm wrote:
You have a citation for that? And how about Candrakīrti's refutation of svasamvedana in the Madhyamakāvatāra? Rongzom, for example, declares out that this idea of the absence of subject and object is just the ultimate Mahāyāna conclusion, but that "nondual" refers to the inseparability of the two truths, which is the Dzogchen point of view.

It is true that in the Kun byed rgyal po, it is declared that bodhicitta is free of subject and object, but since bodhicitta is just a name for emptiness, this makes sense, of course there is no ultimate subject or object, but who ever said there was?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:34 AM
Title: Re: LOL new amazon LOTR show will be straight trash
Content:
Svalaksana said:
That's a shame. I still remember coming out of the theatre as a kid, after having watched The Fellowship of the Ring, and just feeling like I had watched something so cool, so well conceived and balanced, so incredibly riveting. The trailers I've seen for the Amazon series left a sour taste, not too confident young people will experience the same kind of emotion I felt back then.

PeterC said:
Some of it was genuinely ground-breaking, like the CGI realization of the Balrog and the battle sequences.  But they made the story extremely formulaic.  Band of heroes is going somewhere, runs into monster/enemies/problem, fights and gets past it, then runs into another...just kept on and on throughout the film.  But this does reflect the weaknesses of the original stories.  Tolkien knew a lot about archaic languages but nothing about character development.

Malcolm wrote:
True, all his characters fall apart after the first book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 8:03 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- There is no conception of internal and external in the state of rigpa, and I don't need to read the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, or any other book, in order to tell you that.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is. You've been taught incorrectly. Otherwise you would be like a piece of wood, unable to move, talk, drive, and all of these things one can do in a state of instant presence. One is operating in a state of direct perception without reification. Longchenpa explains in the Lama Yangthig that the point of direct perception discussed by Dharmakīrti, etc., is basically the same point as trekcho. This is also how Chogyal Namkhai Norbu taught me, You remind me of the passage in the Chos dbyings mdzod about conceited oxen of Ati

Jules 09 said:
- I wouldn't be so arrogant to say that you have been taught incorrectly...

"One is operating in a state of direct perception without reification."

- Yes, and that state is free of the conceptualization of experience, meaning there are no concepts of 'internal' or 'external'.

- Do I really have to go to all the trouble of quoting Longchenpa on this for you?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually, so I can explain what you’ve misunderstood.please make sure you include pages numbers, etc.  Direct perception is nonconceptual, but if you get hit in the face with a baseball, do you remain in a state where there are no objects? The idea that being n a state of instant presence means there are are no objects is ridiculous. If that’s your point of view, it does not go behind yogacara svasamvedana.

If there is no inside and outside, do you stop for red lights? If so how?

What do you make of the instructions to leave the six senses in contact with the six sense objects?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Sanskrit term used by me when I suggested the scheme was sthana. Javier merely noticed a similarity.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Funnily enough there are also places where the three are given as bhumi, marga and phala showing that there is a variety of ways of expressing it.  Although, the scholar who uses bhumi, where we would say ashraya or sthana, is from the Hindu tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
Who cares? This not a Hindu website.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And you can become reborn as Śakra, so what's your point? Just like someone can become president or king. It's a position in samsara, not a person.

Shunyatagarbha said:
My point is that the person who is holds the position of United States president, or New York Sanitation Commissioner, or whatever else, at any given time, etc.,

Malcolm wrote:
And when they cease to be president their name changes because these things are positions, not people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samsara, the five aggregates, etc., is the basis of purification. Nirvana is the result of purification. You need a path, a purifier, in order to link these two.

Shunyatagarbha said:
True, but on the other hand Rongzom Pandita's Establishing Appearances as Divine logically proves that all phenomena are divine.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a fantastic translation of the title, honestly, and only after analysis, and only after one has established even buddhahood is completely equivalent with an illusion.

“Establishing phenomena as the deity”  is more apt.

The black snake example is apropos here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)
Content:
Archie2009 said:
At the end Khenchen Namdrol Rinpoche also gave a lung for Namchö phowa by Tertön Mingyur Dorjé. What exactly is this?

Malcolm wrote:
It is like it sounds, a text for transferring consciousness at the time death. It is very popular, should be easy to find teachings on it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
cloudburst said:
Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is not our path. Personally, I did not come up that way, having done a three year retreat on Lamdre, etc. Many people do not meet proper Dzogchen teachings until quite well into their path, so you will find many people with experience in the two stages who practice Dzogchen, but the path of transformation and the path of self-liberation are completely distinct. And when they finally meet the Dzogchen path, they usually give up practicing the two stages, other than for prophylactic reasons such as long life practice, sang offerings, protectors, etc., practices that deal with our adventitious karma conditions.

As I mentioned before, guru yoga is the main relative practice of Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- There is no conception of internal and external in the state of rigpa, and I don't need to read the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, or any other book, in order to tell you that.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is. You've been taught incorrectly. Otherwise you would be like a piece of wood, unable to move, talk, drive, and all of these things one can do in a state of instant presence. One is operating in a state of direct perception without reification. Longchenpa explains in the Lama Yangthig that the point of direct perception discussed by Dharmakīrti, etc., is basically the same point as trekcho. This is also how Chogyal Namkhai Norbu taught me, You remind me of the passage in the Chos dbyings mdzod about conceited oxen of Ati


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
DNS said:
Bill Maher, this past Friday on human population numbers:


Malcolm wrote:
I, for one, have no children and never will.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Are you saying that you understand this to mean that in the moment of knowing(rig pa), there is a knower(subject) that cognizes an object(the essence)?

Malcolm wrote:
When one is distracted, yes, of course there is a subject-object bifurcation. Further, in Dzogchen teachings, we do not negate outer objects, etc., since it is not a yogacāra system [see Longchenpa'a commentary on the Treasury of Dharmadhātu for further clarification on this point].

Rigpa in this context however is just knowledge of one's own state.  When we are in a moment of instant presence, or trekcho's rigpa, then no, there is no subject-object dichotomy. We are resting in the knowledge of our own state. This is called "knowledge of the essence." It is important to understand that this is not a reflexive cognizance where vidyā takes itself as an object, as in yogacāra. It is just resting in a moment of personally intuited gnosis (so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes).

Jules 09 said:
- "- Are you quite sure that, within the context of Dzogchen, rig pa has an object?"

"100%, as  Vimalamitra states in the commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, among the different kinds of rig pa, or knowledge, that he defines, he defines Dzogchen rig pa as knowledge of the essence."

"When we are in a moment of instant presence, or trekcho's rigpa, then no, there is no subject-object dichotomy."

- ...

Malcolm wrote:
When we are in a moment of instant present, there are still the appearances of the six senses. We do not reject outer objects—they still appear to us—but we understand that our perception of them (rtsal) is just our own state (byang chub sems, the essence), separate from the apparent objects themselves (rolpa). This is what is means to say, "When we are in a moment of instant presence, or trekcho's rigpa, then no, there is no subject-object dichotomy." In other words we do not reify our perception into subject and object. That does not mean that there are no objects for rig pa.


Again, this is clearly explained by Longchnepa in the commentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, beginning in chapter eight. Why don't you read it and then get back to me?

Dzogchen is not Advaita. In fact, Dzogchen tantras explicitly reject nondualism and Advaita


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Are you saying that you understand this to mean that in the moment of knowing(rig pa), there is a knower(subject) that cognizes an object(the essence)?

Malcolm wrote:
When one is distracted, yes, of course there is a subject-object bifurcation. Further, in Dzogchen teachings, we do not negate outer objects, etc., since it is not a yogacāra system [see Longchenpa'a commentary on the Treasury of Dharmadhātu for further clarification on this point].

Rigpa in this context however is just knowledge of one's own state.  When we are in a moment of instant presence, or trekcho's rigpa, then no, there is no subject-object dichotomy. We are resting in the knowledge of our own state. This is called "knowledge of the essence." It is important to understand that this is not a reflexive cognizance where vidyā takes itself as an object, as in yogacāra. It is just resting in a moment of personally intuited gnosis (so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes).

Jules 09 said:
- So, not quite 100% sure...

Malcolm wrote:
100% pecent sure. Rig pa arises from ma rig pa at the time the appearance (the five lights) of the basis arose from basis (one's unfabricated consciousness), which was taken as an object, and was recognized to be one's own state. Because of this, for example, Samantabhadra attained buddhahood without entering into delusion and without engaging in a single virtue, and we entered samsara's delusion without engaging in a single misdeed. Rather than recognize the appearances of the basis as being our own state, we imputed self and other on to them, etc. This is all really very clearly explained in many places. If there were no appearance, potential (rtsal), for ma rig pa to mistake for being "other," there would be no means by which rig pa could recognizes the appearances of the basis as its own state. Even the term "recognize" implies, conventionally, something which recognizes and something which is recognized.

If you want to quibble over whether rtsal is an object or not, go ahead. Just be aware that while ka dag can never be a basis of delusion, both lhun grub and thugs rje are the basis for delusion, and this would not be possible if they did not present as objects. Thus is why I am 100% sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/30/total-climate-meltdown-inevitable-heatwaves-global-catastrophe

In this respect, the volcanologist, who was also a member of the UK government’s Natural Hazard Working Group, takes an extreme position. Most other climate experts still maintain we have time left, although not very much, to bring about meaningful reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. A rapid drive to net zero and the halting of global warming is still within our grasp, they say.

Such claims are dismissed by McGuire. “I know a lot of people working in climate science who say one thing in public but a very different thing in private. In confidence, they are all much more scared about the future we face, but they won’t admit that in public. I call this climate appeasement and I believe it only makes things worse. The world needs to know how bad things are going to get before we can hope to start to tackle the crisis.”

McGuire finished writing Hothouse Earth at the end of 2021. He includes many of the record high temperatures that had just afflicted the planet, including extremes that had struck the UK. A few months after he completed his manuscript, and as publication loomed, he found that many of those records had already been broken. “That is the trouble with writing a book about climate breakdown,” says McGuire. “By the time it is published it is already out of date. That is how fast things are moving.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Optimal seed size for bodhi mala from practical point of view
Content:
yagmort said:
what do you mean "good"?

around Swayambhu in KTM it is possible to find 11 mm seeds mala for 3,5 USD. if they see white face the price will be 4 times more though.

Malcolm wrote:
Good, well made, will last a lifetime. I don't do street haggling. I liked it, paid the price asked, and that was the end of it. We in West are wealthy, compared to Tibetans. We can afford it. It helps everyone. There is a saying in ceremonial magick, "Thou shalt buy the single egg of a black hen without haggling."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Optimal seed size for bodhi mala from practical point of view
Content:
Archie2009 said:
...the price of €62.80...

yagmort said:
jeez, these damned preposterous prices..

Malcolm wrote:
No they aren't. I paid $125 US for a good bodhiseed māla in Lhasa in 2009.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Interestingly, the Guhyasamaja was also translated into Chinese and is in the Taisho (no 885) - though I am not sure about the Uttaratantra...

Anyways, even if we are adopting a schema that is more common in the tibetan tradition, I think it would still be acceptable to all Mahayana traditions since its source text (or part of it) exists in both canons and since we can see a similar organizational principle in Asanga.

Malcolm wrote:
།རྒྱུད་ནི་རྒྱུན་ཞེས་ བྱ་བར་གྲགས། །རྒྱུན་དེ་རྣམ་པ་གསུམ་འགྱུར་ཏེ། །གཞི་དང་དེ་བཞིན་རང་བཞིན་དང ། །མི་འཕྲོག་པ་ཡིས་རབ་ཕྱེ་བ། །རྣམ་པ་རང་བཞིན་རྒྱུ་ཡིན་ཏེ། །དེ་བཞིན་མི་འཕྲོགས་འབྲས་བུའོ། །གཞི་ནི་ཐབས་ཤེས་བྱ་བ་སྟེ། །གསུམ་གྱིས་རྒྱུད་ཀྱི་དོན་བསྡུས་ བའོ། (D 443, 150a)

Tantra means continuum.
That continuum is divided into three aspects:
a foundation, likewise, a nature, 
and an inalienability.
Likewise, the result is inalienable.
The foundation is called "method."
Thus, three are included in the meaning of tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I didn’t say the Dharma wasn’t profound. I sad samsara is not profound. Teachings on this or that realm exists so we can avoid them, not so that we will admire them. Stop misrepresenting what I say, or read more carefully.

Shunyatagarbha said:
I didn't intentionally do so, I apologize for that. I was more meaning the teachings included in this sutra. But is dependent arising profound or not?

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination, being the teaching of the Buddha is profound. Dependently originated things are not, apart from path dharmas (which however, are impermanent).


Shunyatagarbha said:
It is said that it is the most profound thing of all, and since all things are dependently arisen then how could all things not have deep meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
All compounded phenomena are impermanent. All contaminated things are suffering. Now, in this formula, it is important to understand that the only compounded phenomena that are not contaminated are path dharmas, that is, the thirty-seven adjuncts of awakening.


Shunyatagarbha said:
And one time the Buddha merely held up a flower to the monks and even that teaching was so profound that only one monk could understand it.  And it is often said that samsara and nirvana have the same nature, so how could it be that only nirvana was profound but not samsara;

Malcolm wrote:
You've misunderstood Nāgārjuna's meaning. He is saying that it is through recognizing the nature of samsara that ones discovers nirvana. Samsara itself is just suffering and rebirth.

Shunyatagarbha said:
it's also said that the ultimate nature of phenomena which pervades everything, always, is inconceivable - how could anything be called superficial?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is not superficial, which is why it is hard to realize. You don't realize emptiness merely by gazing a beautiful rose.

Shunyatagarbha said:
There are many things in samsara that can be called profound...the connection between a mother duck and her ducklings, or between a mother and her newborn child, the beauty of music, the wonders of the cosmos and so on; it's said that even a single speck of dust in a sunbeam...

Malcolm wrote:
Compounded and contaminated


Shunyatagarbha said:
If we say that there is nothing of deep significance in mundane samsara dharmas such as that, then there could be nothing of deep meaning in nirvana and enlightenment since they do not  have a separate nature in the final analysis.

Malcolm wrote:
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. If samsaric phenomena were deeply significant, profound, one would not need to analyze them to discover their emptiness, and everyone would attain awakening by cultivating mundane, samsaric phenomena that are the object of grasping.

Samsara, the five aggregates, etc., is the basis of purification. Nirvana is the result of purification. You need a path, a purifier, in order to link these two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
So it is relevant.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not even slightly relevant to my point. I am talking about why the Buddha taught about cosmology to begin with, which was to inspire a sense of renunciation through the understanding that there is no refuge in all of the three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Optimal seed size for bodhi mala from practical point of view
Content:
Archie2009 said:
I settled on a bodhi seed mala (Ziziphus budhensis) with 11.5 mm average diameter beads for the price of €62.80.

https://dharmacraft.shop/product_667/traditional-bodhi-seeds-mala-108-bead-115-mm.html
Ships from Lithuania.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
cloudburst said:
What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

Malcolm wrote:
How can I possibly answer such a question? I don't know all people who call themselves Dzogchen practitioners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
"All compounded things are duhkha" is as much open to misinterpretation as is the famous teaching of shunyata or emptiness. That all compounded things are suffering does not rule out compassion or ethical behavior. The path consists of the accumulations of merit and wisdom. These are carried on for many lifetimes and many kalpas. Compassion for the suffering of sentient beings is an integral part of the path. Health, wealth, food, clothing, shelter, body, education and property  are impermanent and subject to change, but nevertheless giving them to beings is an integral part of three paths, it is not only the bodhisattva path. The accumulations of merit and wisdom belong to the three paths.

Malcolm wrote:
None of this is even slightly relevant to my point. Where did I talk about ruling out compassion, etc.?

When someone holds up one finger, you should hold up one finger. If you hold up two fingers, it means you are not communicating.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
Chemistry is  not "suffering of change", that would be "pseudo-buddhist dumbness".

Malcolm wrote:
As Maitreya said, there isn't a pinpoint of happiness in the three realms. Ergo, the three realms are not profound, they are just samsara.

And, you might take note of the fact that you introduced science and these things. I am talking about the three realms. You are talking about something completely different. However, chemistry is not a path for freedom from samsara.

To restate the point, the Buddha taught the locations in the three realms so one can identify their flaws, not in order to hold them up as something desirable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna's Suhṛllekha states:

After Śakra has been an object of worldly veneration,
he falls to the earth through the power of karma. 
Having become a cakravartin, 
also the cakravartin becomes a subject.
....

Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen states: [66/a]

Śakra is born as a common person.

Shunyatagarbha said:
These quotes show that gods like Shakra are indeed individual persons.  "Shakra is born as an ordinary person".  Before which, namely, he was an extraordinary person,"an object of worldly veneration".  Just like a president or a king or anyone holding positions like that.  There's no difference.

Malcolm wrote:
And you can become reborn as Śakra, so what's your point? Just like someone can become president or king. It's a position in samsara, not a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- Are you quite sure that, within the context of Dzogchen, rig pa has an object?

Malcolm wrote:
100%, as  Vimalamitra states in the commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, among the different kinds of rig pa, or knowledge, that he defines, he defines Dzogchen rig pa as knowledge of the essence.

Jules 09 said:
- Are you saying that you understand this to mean that in the moment of knowing(rig pa), there is a knower(subject) that cognizes an object(the essence)?

Malcolm wrote:
When one is distracted, yes, of course there is a subject-object bifurcation. Further, in Dzogchen teachings, we do not negate outer objects, etc., since it is not a yogacāra system [see Longchenpa'a commentary on the Treasury of Dharmadhātu for further clarification on this point].

Rigpa in this context however is just knowledge of one's own state.  When we are in a moment of instant presence, or trekcho's rigpa, then no, there is no subject-object dichotomy. We are resting in the knowledge of our own state. This is called "knowledge of the essence." It is important to understand that this is not a reflexive cognizance where vidyā takes itself as an object, as in yogacāra. It is just resting in a moment of personally intuited gnosis (so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They are not profound, they are samsaric matters, these are just realms of samsara.

Shunyatagarbha said:
I can't remember ever hearing it said categorically that samsara cannot be profound. The teachings of a sutra like this one here concern matters of deep and arcane knowledge that only an omniscient one or at least a great sage could have direct access to.  To say that the Buddha's teaching isn't profound isn't a fair assessment. Every word spoken by him on any topic has extremely deep meaning. The question as to whether the Sun itself is a conscious god, or rather is only the mansion of that god; how the transfer of of the god holding that position happens; the origin of the Sun and Moon at the start of the kalpa; the origin of the world system, the true nature of the heavens, the origin of human beings, the fate of the world and cosmos and all the various things taught in this sutra such as the inconceivable spans of time and space involved are unfathomable to ordinary thought even though in the ultimate reality they are of course all only dreamlike appearances.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn’t say the Dharma wasn’t profound. I sad samsara is not profound. Teachings on this or that realm exists so we can avoid them, not so that we will admire them. Stop misrepresenting what I say, or read more carefully.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
cloudburst said:
4. Example 1. Ngondro 2. Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not involve any yidam practice at all. Neither does Dzogchen guru yoga, necessarily, unless you consider ཨ a yidam.

The two stages are not part of the path of Dzogchen, yidams are practiced primarily to remove obstacles and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:31 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
I think that we can find it implicitly in the way that Asanga organizes his Mahāyānasaṃgraha. If we look at the ten chapters of this text, we can see the basis, path and result:





Malcolm wrote:
Sure, basis, path, result here is actually, sthana, marga, phala. Good observation.

Shunyatagarbha said:
The Sanskrit term used by the author for foundation and basis here is ashraya.  Otherwise it would say, "Jneyasthana" and "sthanaparavrtti".  Or is the word and unique meaning of "sthana" as distinct from ashraya, implied in those titles or is "ashraya" a subset of sthana in this particular context?

Malcolm wrote:
The Sanskrit term used by me when I suggested the scheme was sthana. Javier merely noticed a similarity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 10:28 AM
Title: Re: 8 months of no rain!
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When it rains, it pours.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:



Javierfv1212 said:
Does Asanga use the term "sthana"? seems like he is using the term Jñeya, "what is to be known" instead? Is "sthana" from the tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo gives the equivalents for gzhi, lam, 'bras as sthana, marga, phala. I was pointing out that meaning is the same.

Javierfv1212 said:
Ah ok, since we are going to be using this basis path result schema to organize the text, I'd like to read the passage from the Guhyasamāja Tantra that discusses it, can you tell us where it is found in the tantra?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s in the Guhyasamaja Uttaratantra, actually. It’s very famous. I’ll provide it tomorrow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 6:26 AM
Title: Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- Are you quite sure that, within the context of Dzogchen, rig pa has an object?

Malcolm wrote:
100%, as  Vimalamitra states in the commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, among the different kinds of rig pa, or knowledge, that he defines, he defines Dzogchen rig pa as knowledge of the essence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sure, basis, path, result here is actually, sthana, marga, phala. Good observation.

Javierfv1212 said:
Does Asanga use the term "sthana"? seems like he is using the term Jñeya, "what is to be known" instead? Is "sthana" from the tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo gives the equivalents for gzhi, lam, 'bras as sthana, marga, phala. I was pointing out that meaning is the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:



Shunyatagarbha said:
Well, perhaps.  These profound matters of the heavenly realms go beyond what the ordinary people like us can hope to comprehend.

Malcolm wrote:
They are not profound, they are samsaric matters, these are just realms of samsara.

Aemilius said:
They are profound.

Malcolm wrote:
For you they are profound. For me, they are just the suffering of change.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Furthermore, I want to add one last note - though Malcolm said that the Basis, Path and Result schema comes from a tantra, I think that we can find it implicitly in the way that Asanga organizes his Mahāyānasaṃgraha. If we look at the ten chapters of this text, we can see the basis, path and result:

(Basis)
Chapter 1. Jñeyāśraya ("The Foundation of What is to be Known")
Chapter 2. Jñeyalakṣaṇa ("The Characteristics of What is to be Known")
(Path)
Chapter 3.    "Penetrating the Characteristics of What is to be Known" - discusses the path to awakening (mārga),
Chapter 4.    "The Causes and Results of this Penetration", discusses the six perfections (ṣaṭpāramitā),
Chapter 5.    "The Divisions of Cultivating These Causes and Results" discusses the ten stages of a bodhisattva (daśabhūmi).
Chapter 6.    "Training in Superior Discipline" (śīla),
Chapter  7.   "Training in Superior Samādhi"
Chapter  8.   "Training in Superior Prajñā"
(Result)
Chapter  9.   "The Relinquishment That is the Result of This training", discusses the “transformation of the basis” (āśrayaparāvṛtti)
Chapter 10. "The Wisdom That Is the Result of This Training", discusses Buddhahood, the Dharmakāya.
So, I think that "basis, path and result" is a perfect way to organize this digest and it is not just a tantric thing but its a way of organizing the dharma that can be found in non-tantric mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, basis, path, result here is actually, sthana, marga, phala. Good observation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2022 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:



Guru Dragpo said:
There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro.  2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/.  3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3.  Dzogchen.
There are many different ways to practice Dharma.  It depends on you and your Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
You forgot 4. Dzogchen.

cloudburst said:
What percentage of practitioners would you say practice dzogchen without doing yidam practice or preliminaries?

Malcolm wrote:
There are specific Dzogchen preliminaries, which are indispensable, but I guess what you asking is how many people who practice Dzogchen do so without having done the common and uncommon preliminaries. It's kind of a misstated question. Most Dzogchen teachers introduce Dzogchen teachings immediately, and then assist their students in helping them find the appropriate secondary practices, which might be ngondro, or some yidam, etc. The main practice of a Dzogchen practitioner is guru yoga, and that is included in any ngondro. Even Migtsema can be a Dzogchen practice, if one understands the principle of the three vajras and their relationship to the three family protectors. After all, the very first text, after his namthar, in the Lhasa edition of Tsongkhapa's collected works is a Dzogchen text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna's Suhṛllekha states:

After Śakra has been an object of worldly veneration,
he falls to the earth through the power of karma. 
Having become a cakravartin, 
also the cakravartin becomes a subject.

And:

Having obtained the extremely great bliss of desire of the deva realm 
and having obtained the passionless bliss of Brahma, 
one is experiences the uninterrupted suffering
of being the fuel of Avīci Hell. 
Obtaining [birth] as the Sun and Moon, the light 
of one’s body illuminates the entire world. 
But once again, after one arrives in the pitch darkness, 
one cannot even see one’s outstretched hand.

Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen states: [66/a]

When one reflects on the suffering of change, 
the high become low. 
Śakra is born as a common person. 
The sun and moon dissolve into the dark. 
The cakravartin is born as a servant. 
Even if one has confidence based on that citation, 
since it cannot be realized by ordinary people, 
look at the changes among the human beings that appear to oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Does awakening make you a nice person?
Content:
Kai lord said:
According to the sutras, anyone on the second bhumi, has perfect ethical conduct.

Malcolm wrote:
Which may not be evident in their external conduct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
It probably isn't essentially different from you and your body, nama-rupa.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Well, perhaps.  These profound matters of the heavenly realms go beyond what the ordinary people like us can hope to comprehend.

Malcolm wrote:
They are not profound, they are samsaric matters, these are just realms of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Correct, the devas like Brahma and Indra are positions, not persons.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Then who implored the Buddha to turn the wheel of Dharma after his enlightenment, when he was vacillating about whether to do so or not?  A "position"?  And the same could be asked of Shakra in all his many adventures.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, Indra is a position, Mahabrahma is a position. What do you think, theses beings are eternal? As you continue your education, you will run across themes such as people being reborn as Indra and so, all Buddhas occupying Tushjta heaven as Svetaket just before their final birth, etc. So yes, positions. If you are going to take all this literally, you should at least understand what it is you are taking literally


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: Should bodhisattva vow breaker be avoided?
Content:
Toenail said:
Similar to tantric vows? I mean a person that was previously a practicing Mahayana Buddhist with the full bodhisattva vows etc and now says bodhicitta is naive and who does not want to reach enlightenment anymore for the sake of all beings and says samsara is fine.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Such a person is the very definition of a bad friend, who certainly must be avoided. Of course, if for some reason they change their mind, then of course it's different. But such a person is childish, by Dharma standards.

PadmaVonSamba said:
It may be that they never really understood the Bodhisattva vow anyway. A lot of people think it means that you have to love everybody all the time blah blah blah. The buddhist path is a long process, like a tree growing. Maybe a bodhi tree. A few years is just scratching the surface.

Malcolm is correct in that this fits the definition, technically, by way of what is written in the sutras. But you know the person better than anyone on this forum. You should your best judgement. The purpose of abandoning bad company is that they interfere with your dharma progress. If this person is keeping you from practice or causing a lot of confusion for you, then yeah, limiting interaction is the best advice. But if hanging out with this person isn’t really a problem for you, and this is a friend, then use your best judgement. Being honest with yourself is also a very important part of dharma practice, because You are always your companion in the journey.

Malcolm wrote:
Shantideva recommends that while we greet childish people with pleasant demeanor, we avoid intimacy with them.

From a Vajrayana point of view, a person who has abandoned bodhicitta has committed one of the 14 root downfalls. It’s one thing if they regret their decision, but if they don’t, one should strictly avoid them. Knowingly associating with such people itself is a branch downfall.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Bön Madhymaka
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What are the origins of Bön Madhymaka? I know there are Bön prajnaparamita sutras, are there are also parallel philosophical works? Do Bönpos also read Nagarjuna?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure they do. They also have their own Madhamaka tradition as well. In a collection of their curriculum, they study the work of Meton Sherab Ozer (dates a bit unclear, lived either in the second half of eleventh century and first part of twelfth, or in the twelfth century). He wrote a text with an autocommentary called Treatise on the Two Truths of the Middle Way.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/view/download/digidepo_10810754_po_ART0010337993.pdf?contentNo=1&alternativeNo=


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2022 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?
Content:
Tenma said:
Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.

Malcolm wrote:
Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.

Tenma said:
Didn't know Tibet used those Ayurvedic concepts! Is it a result of the Tibetan system not having certain concepts for a gluten-sensitivity issue like here compared to Ayurveda?

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan Medicine is basically Ayurveda imported to Tibet. Classical Ayurveda does not have concepts for things like gluten-sensitivity either. The Ayurvedic ideal is that one should be able to eat anything, and if one cannot, it is due to impaired digestive heat, which has three components, kapha, pitta, and vata, in descending order. Inability to digest proteins is likely an issue with kledaka kapha (myag byed bad kan) and pacaka pitta ('ju byed mkhris pa) not being able to break down gluten protein, which results in a feeling of bloating, indigestion, etc., This nutriment can't be properly separated by the samana-vata (me myams rlung), resulting in maldigested nutriment being sent to the liver, where it becomes stressed, overheated, and then there are resulting symptoms of food sensitivity in terms of rashes, and other pitta symptom. So the treatment here would be to strengthen the digestive heat with a combination of conduct, diet, herbs, and certain therapies. and of course the details all depend on what kind of prakṛti (rang bzhin), or constitution one has—vatta, pitta, kapha, vata-pitta, vata-kapha, pitta-kapha, or tridoṣic—and what kind of vitiated (vikṛti, rnam par 'gyur ba) doṣa (nyes pa) one has at the time


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Charles Patton translation of the Dirgha Agama, 30. Description of the World Chapter 12: The Origins of the World
Content:
Aemilius said:
It probably isn't essentially different from you and your body, nama-rupa. In the Twelve links of dependent origination volitions precede consciousness, and consciousness precedes nama-rupa; name and form or mind and body. Evidently this is true for the sun-god also, as it/he is a dependently arisen being. Then they would  just change the consciousness inhabiting the sun's palace every 500 celestial years. This would be like changing the president inhabiting the presidential office.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, the devas like Brahma and Indra are positions, not persons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The basis represents two things: the basis of purification (skandhas, etc.) as well as the nature of reality, emptiness, suchness, dharmatā; the heart sutras is a perfect example; also readings from Lanka on the three natures, etc., there so many sources.

As for the path, readings on ethics, the six perfections, śamatha and vipaśyāna, pure land,

And for the result, clearly, readings on ten stages, the nature of the two or three kāyas such as the lifespan of the Tathāgata chapter in the Lotus, etc.

Granted, it is a scheme take from the Guhyasamāja Tantra, but it is a useful way to see things.

Zhen Li said:
From what you write, Path and Result are clear. As for basis, are you suggesting that on the one hand it is one's unpurified nature (i.e. where skandhas still need to be purified) but beings' and dharmas' underlying nature (i.e. suchness etc.)?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the basis can be approached from two points of view: the causal point of view is to regard the skandhas, afflcitions, and so forth the basis of purification with antidotes, etc.; the resultant point of view is to regard the suchness of the mind as the basis of purification of adventitious afflictions and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
yagmort said:
thanks everyone for the info

Guru Dragpo said:
It's hard to say...

yagmort said:
ok so please check if i got it right.
one first do 3 retreats on ngondro, tummo and thogal. after that one is qualified to do 3 year retreat. during 3 year retreat 3 roots is accumulated first. after 3 roots one is introduced to tregchö. i still don't see where yidam practice takes place? i mean does it come after ngöndro? before or after 3 roots? or, as Cone and Malcolm say, it is not really being practiced? from what i understand, Troworoza is generated instantly during tummo practice and is not a separate kyerim deity practice?

Guru Dragpo said:
There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro.  2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/.  3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3.  Dzogchen.
There are many different ways to practice Dharma.  It depends on you and your Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
You forgot 4. Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Sutras are not (just) words and letters. If you  read and recite a particular sutra say 10 times, 20, 30, or even 100 times, you will become aware that you are in contact and communcation with the Buddha's sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya and dharmakaya. You will also be incontact with the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas of the three times, Protectors and Deities that are mentioned in the sutra. They are the real source of meaning of the sutra. (Even in Theravada the higher paths are taught telepathically, -says Dipama.)

Shunyatagarbha said:
Perhaps there's something in what you say but isn't this sutra saying that the Perfection of Wisdom sutras, even though they teach the definitive meaning, are similar to unseasoned meals, elixirs and medicinal powders without a key ingredient, an unadorned space, or a blank canvas waiting to be completed with the grand design of the so called Third Turning sutras that supply all those final definitive dharmas, and thus the so called Second Turning is in that regard only here called provisional and unsatisfying meaning that will lead to dispute without the so called Third Turning?

Malcolm wrote:
There are differences of opinions among different scholars. For example, Longchenpa holds the tathāgatagarbha sutras to be definitive, but Sapan maintains the second turning as a whole is definitive, but the third turning contains both definitive sutras, like the Samādhirāja, and provisional sutras, like the Mahānirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Should bodhisattva vow breaker be avoided?
Content:
Toenail said:
Similar to tantric vows? I mean a person that was previously a practicing Mahayana Buddhist with the full bodhisattva vows etc and now says bodhicitta is naive and who does not want to reach enlightenment anymore for the sake of all beings and says samsara is fine.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Such a person is the very definition of a bad friend, who certainly must be avoided. Of course, if for some reason they change their mind, then of course it's different. But such a person is childish, by Dharma standards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
StillJustJames said:
Yes, we are all guilty of our friends, and more so, of our spouses. Madame Suzuki being active in the Theosophical Society should not necessarily impugn her husband's dedication to the Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Suzuki himself was a member.

StillJustJames said:
And given Dwight Goddard's wide focus on the Dharma, and his personal horror of war, and warrior culture, which Japanese Zen has been accused of being riddled with,

Malcolm wrote:
Which is true, Brian Victoria's research is well founded.

StillJustJames said:
given that one of his inventions was used during WWI, and though it made him rich, it turned him to the Dharma ever more firmly, perhaps his term "universal mind" comes from the Zen master Huangbo Xiyun, rather than Theosophy.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, since he was editing the work of a translator who himself was part of that milieu.

anyway, this is veering off-topic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 10:07 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
we would need to include readings from Tibetan terma texts of the Mahāyāna class, since the words of Padmasambhava are considered to be buddhavacana in the Tibetan tradition

Shunyatagarbha said:
In making a selection of readings from Mahayana sutras, such as those found the various tripitakas, why would there be any suggestion of including teachings of Padmasambhava?

Malcolm wrote:
Because the Buddha said that Padmasambhava was greater than he.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Even though Buddha Word has a wider meaning in different context, in terms of the word "bka'" in "Kangyur" for example it refers to the voice of the Shakyamuni

Malcolm wrote:
The teachings of Padmasambhava are included in the Vidyādhara piṭaka.

And no, you demonstrate your ignorance once again. Bka' refers to the voice of any buddha, not only Śākyamuni Buddha, and for this reason, the Kun byed rgyal po, etc., is included in the Bka' 'gyur, even though Śākyamuni Buddha never taught it directly, or for that matter the Laghusamvara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
conebeckham said:
I have friends who have done the Palyul Namcho retreats. If I recall, there is a form of Red Chenrezig associated with the TsaLung practice, but I am going on memory here.  Could be wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Wrathful Corpse-eater (Khro bo ro za), a form Avalokiteśvara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I made a preliminary site here: https://sites.google.com/view/mahayanasutrasamksepa/home

I filled in a bit but I am still not sure what goes where, or if I understood the basis, path, result scheme properly. I will let you all suggest what should go where, what should be added, and what should be removed, etc. Also, any regular posters on DW are welcome to contribute. Just let me know your email by PM and I will add you as an editor.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, just to give you a bit more to go on, a common formula is: The middle way of the basis is the union of the two truths. The middle way of the path is the union of method and wisdom. The middle way of the result is the union of two kāyas.

In terms of what goes where, there will be inevitable overlap. And that is ok. The Avatamsaka, for example, defines itself as the definitive sūtra for practice, thus most of its contents would be included in the union of method and wisdom. For example, the wonderful chapter on faith, which begins, "The mother of all qualities is faith," etc. A sutra like the Bodhisattvapiṭaka will be in the path section as well, like the pure land sūtras, and your addition of a laukika section the path is good. Generally speaking, readings from sūtras can be placed in different places. Readings from the ārya-subāhu-paripṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra on the five aggregates, etc., from the  Śālistamba-sūtra nice for the basis because the concerns dependent origination of samsara, aggregates and so on, the basis of purification of the path, etc. Passages detail the nature of affliction, karma, etc.

Passages from the Samdhnirmocana can be included in all three, as can passages from many sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2022 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Sutras associated with Saraswati
Content:
Inedible said:
You might have better luck looking for her in Hindu texts because she is a Hindu Goddess. Like Lakshmi and Durga.

Malcolm wrote:
She is a Pan-Indian Goddess, like Tāra and Laxmi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
yagmort said:
thank you for response, Guru Dragpo.
can you tell what Yidam is practiced in Namchö?
i though it is only for tummo and it is anu style, not the separate deity yoga..

Malcolm wrote:
There are many yidams in Namcho, but mainly there is a practice of three roots.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As for the path, readings on ethics, the six perfections, śamatha and vipaśyāna, pure land,

And for the result, clearly, readings on  ten stages, the nature of the two or three kāyas such as the lifespan of the Tathāgata chapter in the Lotus, etc.

Astus said:
Either for the path (pure land) or the result a short list of the most important/popular buddhas and bodhisattvas should be included. One limiting criteria could be that they're accepted on both the Chinese and the Tibetan sides. So along the lines of Sakyamuni, Amitabha, Bhaisajyaguru, Avalokita, Manjusri, Samantabhadra, Ksitigarbha, Maitreya.

Malcolm wrote:
Certainly the Bhadracāryapranidhana covers most of this well, but there are of course many other texts which ought to be included. Sutras of contested provenance should be excluded, unless we include a section on apocrypha, in which case we would need to include readings from Tibetan terma texts of the Mahāyāna class, since the words of Padmasambhava are considered to be buddhavacana in the Tibetan tradition, in addition to readings from Chinese apocrypha.

The copyright thing might by bypassed by securing the sponsorship of Dzongsar Khyentse, in addition to cooperation from the BDK, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Miorita said:
I have heard the “new speech” of Donald Trump and he is planning revenge already.
The nightmare cannot be allowed to happen again and renewed.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump seems to think America is the TV show Gotham. He wants to execute drug dealers after summary tribunals, erect concentration camps for the homeless to house them in "high quality tents," and militarize the police and post them on every street corner.

You are correct. Donald Trump can never be allowed anywhere near public office again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'd be interested in this book, if for anything but what the results would look like. I had a flash of the DW crowd editing such a book. I bet it would be very good. I'm not kidding. If someone were to step up and do the admin based on input from our regulars, it could be pretty great. Bet we could find a publisher. DW sourced Mahayana compendium.

Zhen Li said:
Publishing something like that could be a bit complicated since it would involve multiple copyright holders and royalty payees, but would be very interesting...

It might make sense to start off with some kind of google sites with multiple contributers assigned as editors. If it ends up looking good and not the possible dog's breakfast, publishing might be a nice option.

In my experience, online versions of texts/translations are accessed more than print these days (which is why I always make mine available for free), but the latter still has prestige and gets listings in bibliographies.

Agreeing on a structure would also be necessary groundwork. The idea of 1. Basis, 2. Path, and 3. Result sounds interesting.

Besides PP and TG fitting into Basis, is there some kind of clear breakdown of what the aspects of each are?


Malcolm wrote:
The basis represents two things: the basis of purification (skandhas, etc.) as well as the nature of reality, emptiness, suchness, dharmatā; the heart sutras is a perfect example; also readings from Lanka on the three natures, etc., there so many sources.

As for the path, readings on ethics, the six perfections, śamatha and vipaśyāna, pure land,

And for the result, clearly, readings on  ten stages, the nature of the two or three kāyas such as the lifespan of the Tathāgata chapter in the Lotus, etc.

Granted, it is a scheme take from the Guhyasamāja Tantra, but it is a useful way to see things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Queequeg said:
Gotta say, this has restored a modicum of hope in the US government to take climate change seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
Curbing carbon is important, but now, infrastructure mitigation is more important. Amtrak issued warnings that its train service (never awesome) will impacted by heat due to having to run trains at slower speeds, since the steel used for the tracks was not designed to be heat resistant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: Gluten Intolerance in Tibetan Medicine?
Content:
Tenma said:
Out of curiosity, how would a Tibetan doctor theoretically explain something such as gluten intolerance, particularly with the intestines? Is this a disorder of bile or phlegm? What of other allergies?

Aside from that, how different are the physical characteristics of bile disorders as opposed to phlegm disorders? I've been getting conflicting sources that keep claiming one or the other is associated with bloating, gastrointestinal problems, and hormonal imbalances for a case study I was curious to see how other systems might treat.

Malcolm wrote:
Impaired digestive heat, both disordered pitta and kapha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 9:27 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Such a digest can be easily organized around basis, path, and result, with appropriate readings for each.

Shunyatagarbha said:
In that respect, what would be Mahayana sutra sections you could point to for the "basis" section?

Malcolm wrote:
Prajnaparamita/tathagatagarbha sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Queequeg said:
Well that's what I mean by a contested primary. The Dems would have to go through that whole contest.

DNS said:
Yes, you're right, that would be considered contested too, as well as the other way where a candidate challenges the incumbent (the way Ted Kennedy did in 1980). The party can get really divided when someone challenges the incumbent. That's why it's better if the incumbent just steps down, if they are no longer physically or cognitively capable.

Bernie is almost 2 years older than Biden, but in much better shape cognitively.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is why he won't get elected, Americans don't like smart presidents, it makes them feel dumb. We live in a country where, anywhere outside a blue zone, intelligence and education are despised.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Personally, I think there is value in having a text that you go over to review all the essential points.

Queequeg said:
Agree. The caveat is, what are the essential points? If our scope is the Mahayana, this is a very diverse group. The point that binds us all I think is Bodhicitta. Beyond that, we all start drifting our own ways.

Assuming there's an idea of the essential points, what are the bounds of comprehensiveness or brevity? For someone well learned, a series of pithy quotes could suffice. For someone with less learning, that's going to be inadequate. One has to determine the right balance.

I suggested above, I think this wheel has been invented already (punny). Shantideva's Bodhisattvacaryavatara is a pretty damn good summary of the Mahayana path.

As you suggest, maybe Javier needs to articulate the particular need that would be addressed by this hypothetical work.

Interesting thought exercise and interesting to read people's ideas about this.


Malcolm wrote:
Such a digest can be easily organized around basis, path, and result, with appropriate readings for each.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:



StillJustJames said:
I do have to correct you on the “theosophy” assertion, yeah, and the “eternalist” assertion too.

Malcolm wrote:
His Universal Mind is pretty adjacent to the Akashic records of Blavatsky. It's understandable, DT Suzuki himself was a member of the Theosophical Society.

https://www.theosophical.org/publications/quest-magazine/1254-beatrice-lane-suzuki-an-american-theosophist-in-japan

StillJustJames said:
Although a Buddhist Mrs. Suzuki never lost her interest in Theosophy and once was head of the T.S. in Japan. She told me that Prof. Suzuki's first gift to her was the "Voice of the Silence" which he wrote her was "pure Mahayana Buddhism." He was a student at Oxford at the time and she was at Columbia University. Mrs. Suzuki was devoted to Dr. Besant and Theosophical notables visiting Japan were always welcome guests....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


Queequeg said:
Maybe... but there's that joke about PA - you have Philly at one end, Pittsburgh at the other, and Alabama in the middle. The North/South divide seems to be morphing into an urban/rural divide with the burbs turning blue. The dividing line is the outer rim of the burbs where it dissolves into exurbs and then country.

Malcolm wrote:
I would just point out, it is the rural areas where you are more likely to see the Battle Flag, including in Northern states, like MA, and VT.

So I still argue it is a north/south thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Queequeg said:
Here's a quick statistic that tells you why the Dem party does not represent working people:
In 2018, according to ProximityOne, a website that analyzes the demographics of congressional districts, Democratic members of Congress represented 74 of the 100 most affluent districts, including 24 of the top 25. Conversely, Republican members of Congress represented 54 of the 100 districts with the lowest household income. The median household income in districts represented by Democrats was $66,829, which is $10,324 more than the median for districts represented by Republicans, at $56,505.

The 2018 data stands in contrast to the income pattern a half-century ago. In 1973, Republicans held 63 of the 100 highest-income districts and Democrats held 73 of the 100 lowest-income districts.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/opinion/trump-red-blue-america.html

Its demographics. I'm coming around to the view that demographics, and the intrinsic self interests, matter more than everything else - ideology, rhetoric, philosophy, etc. are just dressing.

Malcolm wrote:
Ah statistics...keep in mind that it wasn't really until Regan that all the Southern Democrats has fled the Democratic party, and many northern Republicans were shifting to the left, and joined the Democratic Party. What you are looking at is not working class vs. upper middle class (well, in a way), what you are seeing is a split between the North and the South along the Mason-Dixon line. The North is and always has been wealthier than the South apart from a brief period between 1830 and 1860.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:


StillJustJames said:
"A Buddhist Bible" (edition 2) edited by Dwight Goddard.

Malcolm wrote:
Horrible book, full of theosophical, eternalist misconceptions and badly edited translations. Complete waste of money and bandwidth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 6:59 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It is also a genuine Śāntideva text, whereas the Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra was expanded by him.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s an interesting theory. Why do you think so and what’s your evidence?

Zhen Li said:
Akira Saitō explains how the base text was probably composed by Akṣayamati and expanded by Śāntideva in  “An Inquiry into the Relationship between the Śikṣāsamuccaya and the Bodhi(sattva)caryāvatāra,” Indotetsugaku Bukkyōgaku Kenkyū インド哲学仏教学研究 17 (2010).

And Akira Saitō, “Notes on the Interpretation of the Bodhi(sattva)caryāvatāra V.104—106,” in Gedenkschrift J.W. de Jong, eds. H.W. Bodewitz and M. Hara (Tōkyō: International Institute for Buddhist Studies, 2004).

I think he also goes into the topic in his entry for Brill's Encyclopedia of Buddhism, vol. 2, Lives, ed. Johnathan A. Silk (Leiden: Brill, 2019), 395.

Malcolm wrote:
https://earlytibet.com/2014/02/04/the-original-bodhicaryavatara/

According to Van Schaik, Saito  actually thinks the former name is an honorific for the latter. But yes, the text was expanded at some point between its initial translation into Tibetan and its later translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 6:16 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It is also a genuine Śāntideva text, whereas the Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra was expanded by him.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s an interesting theory. Why do you think so and what’s your evidence?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 12:34 PM
Title: Re: Are Mahayana Sutras Spoken by the Buddha?
Content:
Shunyatagarbha said:
It seems to be the case that the traditional view of Indian, Tibetan, Chinese, and all the other Mahayana schools, is that the sutras were...heard by Ananda...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the traditional view of Indian, Tibetan, Chinese, and all other Mahāyāna schools. Indeed, The Mahāyāna position is that Ānanda did not know the Mahāyāna sūtras, and for this reason, the Śravaka canon is incomplete. This is clearly stated in Vasubandhu's Vyākhyāyukti.

Furthermore, the formula "thus I heard at one time" is evidence that someone related something the Buddha was purported to have said after the Buddha passed into Nirvana.

If it makes you feel happy to think the historical Buddha literally said everything that is recorded in the Mahāyāna sūtras and tantra, be my guest. But don't expect other people to follow your credulousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Are Mahayana Sutras Spoken by the Buddha?
Content:
Shunyatagarbha said:
The problems with this idea are endless.

Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu addresses this qualm concerning provenance by simply pointing out that if it is well spoken, it is buddhavacana. In other words, content is more important than origin.

Apart from that, you clearly suffer from a case of acute literalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


DNS said:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/07/25/severe-storms-end-northeast-heat-wave/10143838002/

Malcolm wrote:
That was quite overstated, as far as New England is concerned. The Midatlantic states and the Midwest got hit the hardest.

where I live, we had three days of really hot weather, and only one day was truly uncomfortable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


DNS said:
Good point, just look at the weather in many northern states of the U.S. the past few weeks. It's been hot, very hot! Temperatures around 95+ (35 celsius) with new record highs getting broken for many days in a row up north.

Those at higher altitudes had it better and remain with cooler temperatures.

Malcolm wrote:
Every year we have a few days of 90-95 degree temps. But for the most part, if you look at the temperature, while the SE, SW, MW, and PNW have been boiling, it has been a cool summer in New England. It has been unusually dry, however, because of the heat in the rest of the country. Where I live is 1300+, so it is always 5 to 10 degrees cooler than in the valley or on the coast, places like Boston. We had three days of intense heat, but that has now passed. This is quite normal weather for New England. The worst impact of climate change for us, so far, is decreasing snow packs, and more intense tropical storms.  Biggest issue? Humidity. People who live in deserts will find the humidity of the PNW and the NE daunting.

Compared to what I see happening on the rest of the NA continent, moving north and east makes sense than moving north and west. Canada should be concerned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: Is Lho gyama part of thangyal tsedrub?
Content:
Toenail said:
Are you sure? The Tsewang seemed to be connected to Thangtong Gyalpo and we had to visualize it during the ceremony etc. It was also described in Tibetan and also Hayagriva was part of the visualization. Parnashavari was not mentioned at all. Meanwhile now I found the prayer that was given out and the mantra contained in the Thangyal Tsedrub on Lotsawahouse.

Malcolm wrote:
My bad, I misread Lo brgya ma, 100 years, Logyunma,

There is a longer text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 6:00 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
Just a quick reminder, if I may: the topic is Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics, split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations" and never focused on Surviving Global Warming by finding the safest place to live during the apocalypse which we (yes, us - I will unpack that for you later if I have to) have brought upon the whole world.
Sure, it's a natural concern. That doesn't mean that it aligns at all well with the basics of the Buddhist path - you know, things like compassion for all living beings.

Sure, we can look after ourselves and our loved ones, but extending that to the whole world becomes a matter of acting on behalf of the community, in the community. And we can define 'acting' and 'community' as narrowly or broadly as we like, just so long as we do get out there and act.

And it doesn't matter how bad things are looking, we can always make them less bad than they would otherwise have become.


Please?


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
I think your post needs to be moved into Global Warming: Thoughts and Prayers. Meanwhile, we need Global Warming Survival thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Is Lho gyama part of thangyal tsedrub?
Content:
Toenail said:
I received the long life empowerment called Lho gyama from HHST (41st) in Germany last weekend. Is it part of the thangyal tsedrub? Normally I am not used to receiving a practice text after a Tsewang. There is a medium mantra and also a prayer. I wonder if there is a longer text and more things connected to it.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s Parnashavari, not a long life practice, not connected with the Thangthong Gyalpo initiation,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 11:05 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
KristenM said:
I mean, does Malcolm actually have enough room for us to all build some tiny houses on his idyllic property?

Malcolm wrote:
New England is the climate refugee destination of choice. Some people find the taxes a bit challenging, but they don’t realize they actually get what they pay for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Sex reversal in tibetan medicine
Content:


Vajrasambhava said:
It's not about happiness. I just wanted to know as always, how something is validated to be true as opposed to false in things that cannot be falsified. In this case, since I'm talking about physical phenomena, i just wanted to know how one can assume to change the sex of a fetus through a tantric practice. If this is true it means that potentially the DNA of a being can be changed according to the mind faculties of a parent. That's all.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not some kind if tantric practice. It's a kind of sympathetic magic that is used, and it is based on substances, not mind. For example, if one wants a boy, on the day of the asterism of Puṣya, an effigy of male child, is made with three or five kinds of male iron and quenched in the milk of a cow that has a male calf, this milk also is given to the mother to drink. It is also recommended that the mother eat prepared calcite (white element) and shilajit (red element). Then, one needs wool from three or five rams, to make thread in order to wear the iron effigy which is wrapped in ram skin. The Tibetan texts only give the procedure for changing sex into a male; the Ayurvedic texts also provide the method for changing the sex of the child into a female.

Vajrasambhava said:
Dear Malcolm, thanks a lot.
Do we know if this process actually works giving the desired result?
I've problem with so many things like this, because all the ritualistic about is very well articulated and explained, but i always fail to understand this classic two things:
1- does It really works?
2- how this process has been discovered?

Generally I wrongly extend these two questions in every dharmic practice, and I always end to be trapped in the doubts about phenomena are validated through subjective experience.
The day I will understand the truth of validation through subjectively investigating the basis of phenomena, i think nothing could stop me from practicing Dharma seriously 24/24hrs

Malcolm wrote:
Just telling what it says in the texts. Can’t tell you more than that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Sex reversal in tibetan medicine
Content:
KathyLauren said:
Tibetan medicine is clearly not saying that the DNA changes.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan Medicine has no concept of DNA at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Sex reversal in tibetan medicine
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
SRY gene just explain how the sexual gender developes once a fetus is forming its attributes. Which is estabilished by the entering of a X or Y sperm cell.

KathyLauren said:
Okay, fine.  Stick with your 50-year-old high-school biology if it makes you happy.  It has nothing to do with Tibetan medicine anyway.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

Vajrasambhava said:
It's not about happiness. I just wanted to know as always, how something is validated to be true as opposed to false in things that cannot be falsified. In this case, since I'm talking about physical phenomena, i just wanted to know how one can assume to change the sex of a fetus through a tantric practice. If this is true it means that potentially the DNA of a being can be changed according to the mind faculties of a parent. That's all.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not some kind if tantric practice. It's a kind of sympathetic magic that is used, and it is based on substances, not mind. For example, if one wants a boy, on the day of the asterism of Puṣya, an effigy of male child, is made with three or five kinds of male iron and quenched in the milk of a cow that has a male calf, this milk also is given to the mother to drink. It is also recommended that the mother eat prepared calcite (white element) and shilajit (red element). Then, one needs wool from three or five rams, to make thread in order to wear the iron effigy which is wrapped in ram skin. The Tibetan texts only give the procedure for changing sex into a male; the Ayurvedic texts also provide the method for changing the sex of the child into a female.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
StillJustJames said:
why single out the Surangama Sutra?

Malcolm wrote:
I singled it out because it is being presented as a text of Indian origin when it clearly is not.

There are all kinds of controversies about texts in the history of Tibetan Buddhism. The Nyingmapas were originally very suspicious of the mother tantras; the Sarma schools were suspicious of many Nyingma tantras as well as the terma tradition; many texts in the collection of dhāraṇīs in the Kanjur, were and are considered to be texts of Chinese origin; the Kalacakra was widely criticized for various features found in it, such as elements of Samkhya, etc., etc., it's endless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.wired.com/story/as-climate-fears-mount-some-are-relocating-within-the-us


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Sex reversal in tibetan medicine
Content:


Vajrasambhava said:
And does It work?
I mean, how one can convalidate if the gender has changed or not? I don't think 300 years ago in Tibet a doctor could precisely see the gender of the phoetus after or before three weeks.
Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
They used pulse diagnosis to determine the sex of the fetus. It is actually very precise. But only a very experienced physician who had taken the pulse of hundreds if not thousands of pregnant women would be able to discern this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Queequeg said:
The opinions of people with school age children and/or working regular business hours should carry more weight here... folks making their own hours, waking up at their leisure have the satisfactions of that life and they needn't impose on others out of turn.

Malcolm wrote:
I have been of the opinion, since a very young age, that both school and work start too early.

Switching the clocks back was to make sure children did their chores in sunlight. Children, sadly, generally have no chores any more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
StillJustJames said:
Sure, he says it is apocryphal — a forgery, a fake, not canonical, not with a clear provenance from India, etc. (He has been changing his evaluation criteria each time he answers, so it’s a bit hard to keep up.)

Malcolm wrote:
All Mahāyāna sūtras and tantras are apocryphal. Some were written down in India, some in Tibet, some in Khotan, some in China, etc.

It's easier to just accept this fact and move on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Both, to a degree, winter it starts to get dark at like 4pm, but it’s so cloudy and rainy it hardly matters anyway

Queequeg said:
Aside - with the permanent Daylight Savings, sunset will be pushed back an hour - pretty relevant in the Norther latitudes, but sunrise will also be an hour later... that means like 8:30 am at the height of winter for us. That SUCKS imo, and we are going to have a lot of people complaining about this. Having SAD, another hour of dark in the mornings is going to make me even more f'in miserable several months of the year.

Malcolm wrote:
I much prefer it to have an hour more daylight at the end of the day in Jan, than the beginning, since I am not an early riser. So, different folks with different needs respond differently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Sex reversal in tibetan medicine
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
I discovered that according to the tibetan medicine, the sexual gender of an embryo it's not estabilished at the beginning of the fecundation due to the spermatozoa, but It can be changed by the mother weeks after the conception through tantric practices.
This may contradicts empirical validation.
Do anyone of you know more about this?
How can a tibetan doctor establish such claims? Due to observation? experience? Beliefs?
Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
It has to be done by the third week of pregnancy. It is found in Tibetan medicine and originates in Ayurveda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Translation work for Kyabgon Phakchok Rinpoche
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
Wishing you all well.

Malcolm - I noted on a Wisdom Dharma Chat email, in your bio, that you have done translation work for Phakchok Rinpoche.

What work specifically is this - is it a text or did you translate his oral teachings?

Also, the email didn’t mentioned the topic of the dharma chat - can you share?

Thank you for your time.


Malcolm wrote:
It was a commentary by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche on the Pema Nyingpo Tantra.

Topic TBD.

PeterC said:
Malcolm - where was that published?  I hadn’t seen that

Malcolm wrote:
It was never published. It was to be included in a compendium of commentaries that Michael Tweed was going to edit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don’t evaluate texts based on their purported provenance. I evaluate them based on their content alone. But if someone makes big claims with no supporting evidences, I think that needs to be pointed out.

StillJustJames said:
Yet earlier, you said that it is the lack of a Sanskrit original that is the basis for calling out the Surangama Sutra as apocryphal. But as I pointed out, there is no Sanskrit original of the Surangama Samadhi Sutra and it isn’t held to be apocryphal.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many sūtras in the Kenjur for which we have no material evidence of Sanskrit original, such as the Mahānirvana, etc., but since they are widely quoted in secondary Indian sources, we accept them. This is the case with the Śūraṅgama-samādhi sūtra.

StillJustJames said:
Then you said it is not in the Kenjur, but as Khenpo Sodargye points out, two parts of the sutra are there, and he explains the historical reason — the actual event — the rest of it isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
Chapter ten of a text called the gTsug gtor chen po is there, as well as a portion of chapter nine. The former has no colophon, the latter merely states it was translated from Chinese.

StillJustJames said:
So where is the evidence? You haven’t given any valid, or pertinent, evidence,

Malcolm wrote:
It's not up to me to prove this isn't an Indian text, its up to you to prove that it is. I've already demonstrated that presence in the Kenjur is not sufficient evidence to verify that a given text has an Indian provenance.

StillJustJames said:
Yet, you have never said it is valid either. But in a different thread here on Dharmawheel you had the thread about the contents of the Surangama Sutra terminated as “too controversial” because of the Surangama Sutra’s overly Indian content regarding similarities between a particular meditation technique presented by the Surangama Sutra and certain Indian techniques.

Malcolm wrote:
James, if you are talking about this thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=34204, I did not participate in it and had no part of having it closed.


StillJustJames said:
I just said there is no evidence for an Indian original.
I don’t see how that could be anything other than saying that the dharma in the Surangama Sutra is invalid just because there are no bookkeeping entries for it proving its Indian origin (your assertion), yet it is too ‘Indian’ in its content to be considered valid.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, I don't know where you've derived this idea that I had said the Shurangama Sūtra's content was "too Indic." A direct quote would be nice.

StillJustJames said:
Then you say that:
Whether text is held in high esteem by such and such a person is irrelevant to the verification of its provenance.

Yet, you accept the low esteem of past Western translators as verification of its apocryphal status,

Malcolm wrote:
No, I accept the accumulated body of research on the subject by many generations of both Asian and Western scholars who've been led to the conclusion it is an apocrypha or a psuedo-graphia, whichever term you prefer.

The evidence is laid out here by Professor Benn:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40213652


StillJustJames said:
thus far not one person has shown that even a single citation of this text can be found outside of Chinese-based sources
And yet this thread was about just that. Citations of this text found outside of Chinese-based sources. It specifically was the subject of this thread until you (once-again) interjected your opinion that the sutra is fake and we have fallen into talking about what you know to be true. That is not what this thread was about. It was about citations of this text by modern Tibetan teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
The two texts which represent parts of this text, as it exists in Tibetan, were translated from Chinese.


StillJustJames said:
I am at a complete loss as to how to handle your denunciation of the authority of “tulkus and khenpos” in their teachings about Tibetan Buddhism. That is such a totalization it took my breath away.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, I could care less about the authority of anyone, tulkus especially. As for Khenpos, the kind of training they receive is not training in text critical methodology. They have a different kind of training.

StillJustJames said:
Are we to understand that the real Dharma is that which is verified by academics only? You might not even be a Buddhist today if it wasn’t for the Surangama Sutra’s importance in bringing the Dharma to the States.

Malcolm wrote:
One: are two kinds of Dharma: scripture and realization. When it comes to the provenance of texts, there has been as much dispute among Tibetans over the validity of this or that sūtra or tantra as there has been among Western scholars. Why do you think that 90 percent of the Nyingma Canon of Tantras was excluded from the Kenjur? Even so, texts with controversial origins nevertheless made it into the Kenjur and the Tenjur.

Two: I am a practitioner of Buddhadharma because of my past life accumulations; in this life I would have been born in a country with access to Dharma no matter where I was born. I just happened to be born an American, reconnecting with the Dharma at age 16.


StillJustJames said:
Robert Thurman went so far as to assert that the proselytizer of the Surangama Sutra in the States was a bodhisattva. You can add that to citations found outside of “Chinese-based sources.”

Malcolm wrote:
A source is Chinese-based if it's origin cannot be traced further back than China. It does not mean it does not appear in a Tibetan or English Translation, etc.

StillJustJames said:
And since it seems necessary to state this: he is a full-blooded Tibetan, since there is a theme in these discussions about the 'dishonesty' of “the Chinese” in these matters. That has the character of your “everybody knows” statement.

Malcolm wrote:
James, this is a projection on your part.

StillJustJames said:
Khenpo Sodargye’s assertions, historical references, and collected testimony of the many commentators on the Surangama Sutra,

Malcolm wrote:
There is no Tibetan commentary on the two texts which are present in the Kenjur.

StillJustJames said:
as well as its “chain of custody” from India to Tibet, China, and Mongolia, are available for you to listen to, research, and then develop an informed position based upon factual information that is provided by Khenpo Sodargye.  Your continuing ignorance about his clearly stated evidence is not proof that you are correct.

Malcolm wrote:
I am certain that Khenpo Sodar is presenting his views in good faith.

StillJustJames said:
You stated:
No, and the text is entirely lacking a colophon describing who translated it into Tibetan and it has no Sanskrit title.
Khenpo Sodargye gives that information.

Malcolm wrote:
What's his source? What historical texts does he cite?

StillJustJames said:
You say:
Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence so far, just partisan posturing.
What partisan posturing?

Malcolm wrote:
Yours.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Translation work for Kyabgon Phakchok Rinpoche
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
Wishing you all well.

Malcolm - I noted on a Wisdom Dharma Chat email, in your bio, that you have done translation work for Phakchok Rinpoche.

What work specifically is this - is it a text or did you translate his oral teachings?

Also, the email didn’t mentioned the topic of the dharma chat - can you share?

Thank you for your time.


Malcolm wrote:
It was a commentary by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche on the Pema Nyingpo Tantra.

Topic TBD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 10:29 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, it’s a wide spread opinion, since it plagiarizes the Mulakalpa extensively.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Who else considers it an inauthentic text?  And you sure you don't mean the Taramulakalpa,

Malcolm wrote:
I mean the text published by Martin Wilson, and more recently by Thurman’s group.

Shunyatagarbha said:
If Gampopa etc quoted the so called Words of the Dharma of the Vajrasamadhi even while considering it a non-Indian text,

Malcolm wrote:
Who said Gampopa considers it a non-Indian text? I never said that.

Shunyatagarbha said:
As for his testimony of the Shuramgama Sutra, an example reads,

Malcolm wrote:
I honestly don’t care what this person says about anything. His testimonials are not empirical evidence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
many people esteem the Tārā Tantra, but Ngorchen claims it is a Tibetan forgery.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Assuming that means the Sarvatathāgatamātṛtārāviśvakarmabhavatantranāma, what is his argument behind that claim and has anyone else said that that text is not authentic?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it’s a wide spread opinion, since it plagiarizes the Mulakalpa extensively.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Regarding the Vajrasamadhi, I still wonder why Gampopa and other leading masters were quoting from it if they considered it to be a Korean or Chinese text.

Malcolm wrote:
They didn’t.


Shunyatagarbha said:
And if Tibetan masters like that quoting from a presumably apocryphal text don't lend it any authenticity as an Indian text then the lack of such citations of the Shuramgama Sutra is irrelevant to the argument for or against its subcontinental provenance since the logic here has it that such citations don't mean anything either way.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, provenance is irrelevant to content. You should read. Buswell’s treatment of the text. There is no way it isn’t apocryphal.

Shunyatagarbha said:
would also submit the views on the Shuramgama Sutra of the glorious late Chinese master Hsuan Hua, who in no way could be described as a partisan posturer.

Malcolm wrote:
His views are explicitly partisan, since he claims to represent “orthodox Buddhism,” in contrast to Tibetan Buddhism, which he regarded as corrupt. He also has strange views concerning rebirth and so on, so, frankly, not a reliable authority.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That’s simple: Gampopa and some other Kagyus cited the   Vajrasamadhi, no one cited the Chinese Shurangama.

Shunyatagarbha said:
What were they doing quoting a Korean text - does that not instead suggest an Indian origin of the Vajrasamadhi's Dharma words?

Malcolm wrote:
No, and the text is entirely lacking a colophon describing who translated it into Tibetan and it has no Sanskrit title.

However the fact that it was included in the Ldan dkar catalogue certainly bolstered its support in certain quarters. However, Buswell's case that it is a Korean composition is pretty impenetrable.

Shunyatagarbha said:
"The Tibetan Assimilation of Buddhism" by Matthew Kapstein says that "certain Tibetan traditions believed the Vajrasamadhi Sutra was an authentic sutra spoken by the Buddha himself".

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, certain Tibetans accepted it. Others did not.

Shunyatagarbha said:
Now that Tibetan teachers today are speaking in the same way about the Shuramgama Sutra, perhaps they are both authentic sutras spoken by the Buddha himself.

Malcolm wrote:
In the case of the former, impossible, in the case of the latter, let's see some evidence it is an Indian text. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence so far, just partisan posturing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


DNS said:
The Seattle - Puget Sound area has lots of water, hell, it's even falling from the sky all the time. Most of the year, there is at least a mist of rain coming down.

Malcolm wrote:
The climate is changing in the PNW. It is becoming drier because of 100 years of systemic deforestation.

The NE is becoming wetter because we stopped cutting down trees a century ago and let it all grow back, though housing development is again placing pressure on the woods.

Baja and the Sea of Cortez also has a hell of a lot of water, but it's dry as a bone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2022 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


DNS said:
Yes, there are some nice smaller cities near the big ones, for example Bainbridge Island, Bellevue, Kirkland in the Puget Sound - Seattle area. I still like to be near a big city for the natural foods groceries, restaurants and buddhist centers.

Malcolm wrote:
You think those are really going to survive a catastrophic collapse?

DNS said:
It depends on the catastrophe. I was mostly thinking about a place not so hot and not subject to increasing temperatures (now and in the future).

Malcolm wrote:
Michigan to New England….


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2022 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism without rebirth
Content:




Malcolm wrote:
There is little point to practicing Buddhism if one does not accept rebirth. Why? It means one does not accept the basic existential problem the Buddha sought to address: rebirth.

Buddhism adds nothing to ethics and living a decent life not already covered in secular ethics and philosophy.

KeithA said:
The point. Otherwise, practice is just another exercise in self-improvement. Emphasis on the "self".

_/|\_
Keith

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Like Mindfulness training programs to improve performance productivity and $$$ in corporations

Malcolm wrote:
And to make one a better soldier...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2022 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism without rebirth
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
Yeah that's the sort of scripture-based reasoning I left Catholicism 40 years ago to avoid.


Malcolm wrote:
There is little point to practicing Buddhism if one does not accept rebirth. Why? It means one does not accept the basic existential problem the Buddha sought to address: rebirth.

Buddhism adds nothing to ethics and living a decent life not already covered in secular ethics and philosophy.

Knotty Veneer said:
I think that's rather sweeping, Malcolm. Practicing meditation, ethical behavior, compassion etc. have plenty of this-life benefits for ourselves and other beings.

Malcolm wrote:
One does not need Buddhism to practice meditation, ethics, compassion and so on, thats my point. Buddhism offers very little in these regards which one cannot already find in secular philosophy and ethics. Hume, for example, negated an integral self, etc., asserting "a self" did not exist as such. And indeed, western ethics are much more sophisticated and clearly articulated than the simplistic, catechistic ethics taught in Buddhism.

Buddhism offers a very precise solution to a very precise question. The problem is that most people do not understand Buddha's question, which is how to put an end to rebirth, which is suffering. This is the reason the Buddha and arhats in general declare upon their awakening that they will not undergo further birth.

I am not telling you what to believe. Whether you believe in rebirth or not is irrelevant. The Buddha taught rebirth, and it is in this context that all his teachings are to be understood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2022 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


DNS said:
Yes, there are some nice smaller cities near the big ones, for example Bainbridge Island, Bellevue, Kirkland in the Puget Sound - Seattle area. I still like to be near a big city for the natural foods groceries, restaurants and buddhist centers.

Malcolm wrote:
You think those are really going to survive a catastrophic collapse?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism without rebirth
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
We cannot know until it happens.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not really true. We can also recall our past lives, as the Buddha did. Luckily, it isn't necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism without rebirth
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
Yeah that's the sort of scripture-based reasoning I left Catholicism 40 years ago to avoid.


Malcolm wrote:
There is little point to practicing Buddhism if one does not accept rebirth. Why? It means one does not accept the basic existential problem the Buddha sought to address: rebirth.

Buddhism adds nothing to ethics and living a decent life not already covered in secular ethics and philosophy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are all sorts of paraccanonical texts with all kinds of origin stories, and often conflicting accounts for the same text.

Shunyatagarbha said:
What are some of the other famous ones...?  I can't think of any.  In a way it does seem weird that the Vajrasamadhi Sutra (renamed as Vajrasamadhidharmakshara there, the Dharma Syllables of the Vajrasamadhi) should have been in the Kanjurs, but not the Shuramgama Sutra, since on the whole the latter is arguably the more influential text. But if they are both apocryphal, it's perplexing why one would have been included and not the other.  Not that this proves anything either way.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s simple: Gampopa and some other Kagyus cited the   Vajrasamadhi, no one cited the Chinese Shurangama.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 11:45 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

Shunyatagarbha said:
An anecdotal testimony is not as good a form of valid cognition as direct perception, so not the best logical proof, but it's also not automatically evidence against itself.  The fact is such anecdotes do exist meaning that If the story is a hoax, what could have been the reason for doing it..

Malcolm wrote:
There are all sorts of paraccanonical texts with all kinds of origin stories, and often conflicting accounts for the same text.


I don’t evaluate texts based on their purported provenance. I evaluate them based on their content alone. But if someone makes big claims with no supporting evidences, I think that needs to be pointed out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
Shunyatagarbha said:
paramiti
Dictionary Definition ：
Definition[1]	：
般剌密諦

He was one of the great translators in China. Paramiti in Sanskrit means 'Extreme Amount' (極量), indicating that his talent and his wisdom were both extremely ample and full. Śramaṇa Paramiti smuggled The Śūrangama Sūtra (楞嚴經) from India to China in the Tang Dynasty. He accomplished his works very quickly so that he could get back to India on time without punishment. After he finished his translation, he went back to India and confessed to the King, and asked to receive whatever punishment the offense incurred.

As the Director of Translation, he stood at the head of more than five hundred Dharma masters who had assembled to work on the translation. The work was done with over 200 scholars and monks at the Chih Chih Monastery (制止寺), a large monastery in the City of Guangzhou.

Start of the text itself: Chinese Rendering by Master Paramiti of Central North India at Chih Chih Monastery, Canton, China, Ad 705


This story would have to be one big hoax, which would obviously go against the spirit of the teaching.  For what reason?

Malcolm wrote:
Anecdotes aren’t evidence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
StillJustJames said:
It’s good that you raise this Malcom.

It is an interesting fact that you say that, while Eric Pema Kunsang, a renowned translator of Tibetan texts, holds it in the highest regard, as someone else in this thread already mentioned. Thus your statement is false on its utterance.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is more interesting that you engage in such a vitriolic response to a simple statement of fact, there is no evidence for an Indian original for this text. This is just not even a matter of dispute. Whether text is held in high esteem by such and such a person is irrelevant to the verification of its provenance. For example, many people esteem the Tārā Tantra, but Ngorchen claims it is a Tibetan forgery.

I merely repeated what is well known to everyone: thus far not one person has shown that even a single citation of this text can be found outside of Chinese-based sources, even in the few places among Tibetan writing where it is mentioned. It isn't found in either of the two extant imperial catalogues.

The text gets a mention by Buton, but he does not state from which language it is translated, so even this is not certain. For example, Gampopa cites the Vajrasamadhi Sūtra, which actually exists in the Kenjur, but it is well established that this sūtra was written in Korea.

Moving away from the issue of provenance, I never said the dharma taught in the Śurangama Sūtra was invalid. I just said there is no evidence for an Indian original. It's up to you to provide evidence for such an original, not based on the touted authority of tulkus and khenpos, but based on evidence. Thus far, there is none, other than a single mentioned by Buton. That isn't sufficient. Buton accepted many texts into the Kenjur and Tenjur disputed by later scholars such as Tsongkhapa and Ngorchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism without rebirth
Content:
curtstein said:
I have a very specific question: Prior to relatively recent times (since the mid-20th century, let's say), was there ever any such thing as self-identified Buddhists who explicitly rejected the idea of rebirth?

Malcolm wrote:
Not that I am aware of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination is "Where this exists, that exist, when that arose, this arose."

Karma is specifically moral causation, the causes and effects of virtuous, nonvirtuous, and neutral actions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, where this virtuous action arose, that result of the virtuous action arose.
What’s the difference?

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is this: dependent origination is the general theory of Buddhist causation with respect to sentient beings. It covers the formation of world systems rebirth, etc., Karma is the Buddhist theory of moral causation, specifically, the theory of how actions result in either happiness or suffering.

In Abhidharma, dependent origination is taught after the general theory of causation (the six causes and four conditions), and before karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Virtuous/non-virtuous/neutral are subjective considerations.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they aren't.

The nonvirtuous deeds are killing, stealing, rape, lying, harsh speech, calumny, gossip, ignorance, greed, and malice are the ten nonvirtuous actions motivated by desire, hatred, and confusion.

Virtuous actions are the opposite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
It’s simply the principle that everything that occurs arises from previous causes, and what arises also becomes the cause for subsequent things to occur or arise.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you've confused dependent origination with karma.

Dependent origination is "Where this exists, that exist, when that arose, this arose."

Karma is specifically moral causation, the causes and effects of virtuous, nonvirtuous, and neutral actions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on DMT and the entities people claim to encounter?
Content:



Toenail said:
one tragic case

Malcolm wrote:
He seems just fine now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Quotes from Śūraṅgama Sutra in "Poison is Medicine - Clarifying the Vajrayana"
Content:
StillJustJames said:
Yet, the supposedly respected Tibetan lamas, such as Dzongsar Khyentse, who quotes from it, and Khenpo Sodargye who teaches it, seem to bear no authority. It is puzzling.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not puzzling at all. Neither person is an expert text critical scholar. It's status an authentic Indian text is highly questionable. So far, no one has produced any evidence it should be accepted as an Indian text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
Tukaram said:
Exactly how karma works, I do not know.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Well, karma doesn’t actually “work” or “not work”, because it isn’t really a “thing” like gravity. It’s not some kind of cosmic force.

Simply put, all phenomena (appearances, ultimately) arise from conditions. And everything that arises or occurs becomes some of the conditions for other phenomena to arise. This is where karma becomes inseparable from sunyata (emptiness) and dependent arising.

Rennigeb said:
So what's the role of karma on emptiness and dependent arising? Why is it inseparable from emptiness on the arising of appearences?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a progression from causes and conditions (both outer and inner phenomena) --> dependent origination (causes and conditions of sentient beings) --> karma and its ripening (the causes and conditions of virtuous, nonvirtuous, and neutral volitions, their physical and verbal expressions, and the consequences of those expressions).

Karma paints the canvas of emptiness and appearance with happiness and suffering.

The main point of Buddhism is to eliminate the three afflictions—confusion, hatred, and desire—which are the cause of actions which inevitably result in suffering. Awakening has no other purpose for oneself than this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2022 at 7:00 PM
Title: Re: Lamdre Lobshe & Vajrapani Bhutadamara
Content:
Tsewang88 said:
Hi

When the Lamdre Lobshe is given in its entirety, is the Vajrapani Bhutadamara initiation definitely given as part of the transmission?

Thank you.

Regards

Tsewang

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2022 at 9:28 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
Rennigeb said:
No problem with morality, but when it is presented in a obscured way it seems like a mechanism of control.

Malcolm wrote:
What’s wrong with self control? No one forces you to accept karma and it’s results. That’s entirely up to you. The only person who can control you is you. Karma is about taking responsibility for yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2022 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
Rennigeb said:
but it seems like a excuse for just a moral dogma

Malcolm wrote:
Is there is a problem with having a doctrine of morality? Just think about it: do you prefer to see who are patient with you or people who are impatient with you?

We tend to see people who are patient with us as pleasant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2022 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
This idea of definitive and provisional comes about from guys trying to classify sutras after the third turning. The third turning was called definitive because it is resolving questions about Buddhahood that are left open in the first and second, namely what is buddhahood exactly and whether emptiness is all there is to it, that emptiness relates with what is to be negated, appearances and self and when obscurations are taken out of the equation what remains is not impermanent. Nothing there implies existence. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra does say if you think Buddhahood is just emptiness you are like a moth falling into a flame.

Malcolm wrote:
There are a variety of problems here. 1) there is only one passage in all of the sutras that define three turnings, the Samdhinirmocana. 2) The Indians completely ignored this division of sūtras, which I have show elsewhere. 3) Tibetan interpretations of this are so varied as to render the doctrine virtually meaningless. 4) Not all of the so-called third turning sūtras can be accepted as definitive. 5) Mādhyamikas use a different sūtra to ascertain the distinction between definitive and provisional, the Akṣayamatinirdeśa:

What are the sūtras of definitive meaning and the sūtras of implicit meaning? The sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the way are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one reach the fruit of the way are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the relative truth are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the ultimate truth are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to help one engage in actions and duties are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught for the sake of the cessation of actions and afflictions are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to explain affliction are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to explain purification are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to produce disgust for existence are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the nonduality of nirvāṇa and existence are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught with various words and syllables are called implicit, while the sūtras that teach that which is deep, hard to see, and hard to understand are called definitive. The sūtras with many words and syllables that are taught in order to please the thoughts of living beings are called implicit, [F.150.b] while the sūtras with few words and syllables that are taught in order to produce mental introspection in living beings are called definitive. The sūtras that, with various words, proclaim a self, a being, a life principle, a life-sustaining principle, a spirit, a personality, a human being, a man, a subject that acts, and a subject that feels and those that teach that there is a ruler where there is no ruler are called implicit. The sūtras that teach emptiness, the absence of distinguishing marks, the absence of anything to long for, the unconditioned, the unborn, the unoriginated, the nonexistent, the absence of self, the absence of being, the absence of soul, the absence of person, the absence of spirit, the absence of ruler, and the gates of liberation are called definitive. This is called the reliance on the sūtras of definitive meaning, not on the sūtras of implicit meaning.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh175.html#UT22084-060-004-275


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2022 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Astus said:
[On the other hand, apart from categorising one as conventional and the other as ultimate, what difference is there?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2022 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: 40c temp London next two days possible
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Is there a Mahayana Sutra that distill the essence of the Sravakayana Canons?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Distills, summarizes, defines, contextualizes, etc.

or are Mahayana sutras a completely new genre that don't repeat/comment much on Sravaka Canons?

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhisattvapitaka, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Nagarjuna's Refutation of Motion
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
A short way of saying it is that if you define any kind of entity, that entity can’t be in motion because then it isn’t where it was and thus becomes a differently defined entity.

Svalaksana said:
On a sidenote, albeit somewhat unrelated, but this brought to my mind the compromise found on the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg, in which you can either define a particle's motion (velocity) or its location, but never both at the same time with 100% certainty. Anyways, thanks for your thoughts on this.

Malcolm wrote:
It's more like Zeno's paradox.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Astus said:
If by consciousness you mean conditioned appearances devoid of essence, what's there to negate?

Malcolm wrote:
Do dualistic appearances exist apart from a consciousness or not? And if in fact dualistic appearances are utter nonexistents (which the yogacārins claim is the case), how is the consciousness in which they appear conditioned? What are the causes and conditions of this substantial consciousness?

This is the whole problem with the yogacārin interpretation of the three nature and why mādhyamikas attack it.

As far as I can tell, you are misreading Jñānagarbha, conflating his "mere thing" with Asanga's "mere thing":

'A mere thing (vastu-mātra), which is not confused with anything that is imagined and arises dependently, is known as correct relative [truth].'

Asanga's "mere thing" in the BBh is an ineffable ultimate, as indicated above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Nagarjuna's Refutation of Motion
Content:



Svalaksana said:
Motion cannot be found in a mover that has not yet moved, nor in a mover that has already ceased moving.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna's approach is to attack gerunds:

རེ་ཞིག་སོང་ལ་མི་འགྲོ་སྟེ། །མ་སོང་བ་ལའང་འགྲོ་བ་མིན། །སོང་དང་མ་སོང་མ་གཏོགས་པར། །བགོམ་པ་ཤེས་པར་མི་འགྱུར་རོ།

There is no moving in that which has moved, there is no moving in that which has not moved. 
A mover is not known apart from something which has or has not moved.

This is why he attacks moving movers.

He uses the same strategy in the MMK over and over again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Queequeg said:
There is presently no path to a NAU. Mexico will need to come up, and we need to decline. And Candada will want nothing to do with it but will be hopelessly along for the ride.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is a pathway, one just needs to have a better imagination. In 1775, there was no pathway to the United States either.

NAFTA was the beginning of the NAU.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: 30.08. Chetsang Rinpoche Nairatmya
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Where did he get it?

Kai lord said:
From Rinpoche's words:
“The non-dual tantra of glorious Hevajra is the ultimate perfection of all classes of tantra. It is the profound, unsurpassed and quintessential yoga. In the noble land of India, Naropa, Maitripa, Krishnacharya, Samayavajra, Virupa and his disciples Padma Vajra, Shantibam and many other lineage holders have appeared. In Tibet, Marpa Lotsawa, Lotsawa Drogmi and Go Lotsawa have transmitted the lineage.


This particular empowerment ritual stems from the transmission lineage of the great accomplished master Shantipa, the lineage gurus of the innate Hevajra with consort, according to the transmission lineage of Lord Drikungpa, and his disciples is as follows: Buton Rinchen transmitted the lineage to his heart’s son Rinchen Namgyal then it was transmitted through the scholar, Chandrakirti, the master Yeshe Gyamtso, the venerable Khyenrab Chojin, Lama Rinchen Gyelpo, the mahasiddha Pema Garwang, the master, Mangto Namgyel (?), Acharya Sonam Chomphel, Shamar Garwang, Chokyi Wangchug and the master Chokyi Dragpa.”
Regarding the lineage, I received this empowerment for the first time when I was a very young child and I hardly remember it. Then again I received it from Lamchen Rinpoche and the empowerment comes from the four co-emergent deities, which is a very precious empowerment text, there are four empowerment texts in there. So this is the empowerment I’m giving now and so that’s my personal lineage. In general, it is important to hear the names of the lineage masters.”
Here's the biography of https://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Lamchen_Gyalpo_Rinpoche

Crazywisdom said:
Yes. I'm familiar with him. So DK has had unbroken Hevajra all along?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a major two day empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Any ideas on Carlos Castaneda?
Content:
tingdzin said:
He created a myth, which, though only loosely connected to facts, had a certain charm. A lot of sacred biographies have little basis in fact but can still teach something. If you take him literally, though, you're asking for trouble.

PeterC said:
That is truthiness.

Do I believe every detail of every sutra, tantra or hagiography that describes someone flying up to Tushita heaven and hanging out with devas and Bodhisattvas?  No, not necessarily.  But they at least have either an allegorical, illustrative or a didactic meaning.  Now we all know that Don Juan didn't exist and Carlos Castenada didn't learn any mystical secrets from him.  If Carlos Castenada had learnt mystical secrets from somewhere else and simply invented Don Juan as the cover story, then fine, there still may be something to his book that makes it worth reading.  But he didn't learn anything from anyone: he just made shit up.  If anyone thinks that somehow his book is useful because it somehow accords with their idea of what mystical secrets should be, then that person is misguided (literally).

Malcolm wrote:
The most charitable thing one can say about Castenada is that his works are a species of 1960’s/70’s Latin America magical realism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My definition comes from how it is read from Tibetan.

Astus said:
Thank you for looking it up and providing the translations. It's much appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
There cannot be causal efficiencies if there are no actual subjects and objects. Throughout their analysis, consciousness itself left unnegated, and so on, try as they may to avoid the charge of realism, their own words betray them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 11:20 AM
Title: Re: Offering bowls
Content:
pemachophel said:
You can include a bowel for offering music or not. I've been that the offering of a music bowel is or was a Khampa thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. If one has a butter lamp, the extra bowl becomes the music bowl by default. Otherwise, tingshas are the offering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:
Queequeg said:
Lol. If it was nothing but the emails, then what are we worried about? Bury these f'ers and bring on the New American Century!

I admire the music you play with a single note.

Malcolm wrote:
Well QQ,  nationalist politics are going to condemn your kids to climate hell. We need to think of our political futures in terms of the planet and it’s bioregions, not in terms of its human cultures and their bias regions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 9:48 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


Queequeg said:
But one or two generations in, the most industrious immigrants have lazy American grandchildren. Go figure.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.

Queequeg said:
How is it that there are districts that overwhelmingly voted for Obama and then went for Trump a few years later?

Malcolm wrote:
Trump only won the electoral college because 77k votes in four counties, handed to him by votes for third parties, because her emails.

Most people who voted for Obama voted for HRC, but her emails…

BTW, voting for Obama doesn’t mean one is not racist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Current state of the Democratic party
Content:


Svalaksana said:
On the other hand, most of the Anglos I befriended and knew, were professional, responsible, hard-working and quite nice too. Either way, that would never compell me to characterize one group or the other as such.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t think we are talking about the same social class.


