﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, so, is it sane and logical that we Vajrayāna practitioner abide by the basic requirement expected of Vajrayāna practitioners, which is to keep secret that which should be kept secret from those who do not have samaya? The excuse, "well, it is posted on the internet" is not sufficient warrant for people who have samaya to share with people who do not. For example, just because there are a million pictures of Vajrayogini on the internet, does not mean it is ok or correct for someone who has samaya to share such an image with someone who does not.

Grigoris said:
So, guard your samaya like your eyes, caution and advise others to do the same.  Can't really do much more than that.

From there on it is the responsibilty of the "other" to choose how they will proceed.  Ultimately samaya is a personal issue.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not an adequate policy for the forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you really believe as you say, then why is it an unwritten policy here to shut down conversations about such topics as thögal? Be consistent.

Grigoris said:
Why be consistent when you can be hypocritical?

But seriously:  Some conversations are shut down due to member's requests, not due to policy.  Weirdly enough we sometimes respect member's requests (ie when they are sane and logical).

Malcolm wrote:
Right, so, is it sane and logical that we Vajrayāna practitioner abide by the basic requirement expected of Vajrayāna practitioners, which is to keep secret that which should be kept secret from those who do not have samaya? The excuse, "well, it is posted on the internet" is not sufficient warrant for people who have samaya to share with people who do not. For example, just because there are a million pictures of Vajrayogini on the internet, does not mean it is ok or correct for someone who has samaya to share such an image with someone who does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
y  own conduct in this regard to the very best of my ability. However, I don't see where anything he says makes me the policeman of other people's samaya...

Malcolm wrote:
If you really believe as you say, then why is it an unwritten policy here to shut down conversations about such topics as thögal? Be consistent.

The point I am addressing is students sharing restricted material about Vajrayāna practices on this forum.

When I say the internet is not a proper forum for disseminating this material, I mean it is not a proper place for students with samaya to share information with those who lack samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 10:46 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:




Johnny Dangerous said:
This begs the question what *is* the proper use of the internet with the teachings, and one can simply observe that different teachers have different opinions here. That being the case, the best a person can do is abide by what their teacher says personally.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course this is just false.

Johnny Dangerous said:
What part of it is false? Even you should probably qualify what you say when having to speak down to us mere mortals, though I'm sure it's a real pain to do so, especially when we peskily disagree.

Malcolm wrote:
Samaya is not just something teachers are able to abrogate on their mere say so. Since you are a student of ChNN you should understand his POV about secrecy and the teachings, which is rather strict, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
What causes the downfall of the Vajrayana is when people misuse the practice for power, reputation, etc, In other words, out of self-cherishing and attachment. It is not revealing the methods that causes degeneration but misuse.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a proper way to disclose these kinds of teachings and the internet is not it...


Johnny Dangerous said:
This begs the question what *is* the proper use of the internet with the teachings, and one can simply observe that different teachers have different opinions here. That being the case, the best a person can do is abide by what their teacher says personally.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course this is just false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Somehow I don't think that some pencil-necked-geek hacking into a three hour Dharma teaching on the nature of mind, is going to bring about the downfall of the Vajryana...

Malcolm wrote:
No, but people volunteering the substance of vajrayāna practices, mantras, images of yidams, protectors, and so on certainly will.

Tsongkhapafan said:
What causes the downfall of the Vajrayana is when people misuse the practice for power, reputation, etc, In other words, out of self-cherishing and attachment. It is not revealing the methods that causes degeneration but misuse.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a proper way to disclose these kinds of teachings and the internet is not it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Sure.

But I have enough problems keeping my samaya without running around and policing everybody else's...

Malcolm wrote:
If you don't take responsibility, who will?

Karma Dorje said:
The dharmapalas, for one.

Malcolm wrote:
Great, lets just let it all hang out then...after all, it seems no one cares anymore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Somehow I don't think that some pencil-necked-geek hacking into a three hour Dharma teaching on the nature of mind, is going to bring about the downfall of the Vajryana...

Malcolm wrote:
No, but people volunteering the substance of vajrayāna practices, mantras, images of yidams, protectors, and so on certainly will.

Grigoris said:
Sure.

But I have enough problems keeping my samaya without running around and policing everybody else's...

Malcolm wrote:
If you don't take responsibility, who will?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
I think it depends on context. If Secret Mantra is practised within the context of Sutra, for example within the context of Lamrim teachings, then secrecy is not necessary because the practice will be correctly intentioned and not misused. It must be presented within the context of a complete path to enlightenment. Traditionally within Tibetan Buddhism though, Secret Mantra is very secret.

Malcolm wrote:
Secret mantra is called secret because it is supposed to be kept secret, period.

Tsongkhapafan said:
It’s called secret because there are no outward signs of the practice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is called secret because the practices may not be disclosed to those who lack the ripening empowerments. This is why the seventh root downfall concerns not disclosing the secrets of the practice of Mantrayāna to those who are unripened.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: I wish to marry a Dakini
Content:
Motova said:
I wish to marry a Dakini.

Please pray for me and recite mantras for me and dedicate merit to me so that I may receive my wish.

Thank you kindly.

Malcolm wrote:
Only dakas can marry dakinis. Ordinary men can't handle it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Gatinho said:
But it seems to me that I am being given authority to do a practice myself and I know it is very popular (encouraged even) to hang around lamas basking in the ambience - for me I have no inclination to do so.  I avoid dharma centres and only go for specific teachings every few years or so.  I'm not sure if this makes me very unusual - but I think that examining one's teacher for many years, receiving instructions for practice and going away and doing it, is more traditional than what seems the standard now of receiving dozens of teachings and empowerments (while idolising one's lama as a saviour) and joining a 'community'.

Motova said:
Being a part of The Community is very important in Dharma... especially Vajrayana.

PeterC said:
I don’t think so.

Malcolm wrote:
I think so, the second samaya concerns one's relationship with one's vajra siblings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Grigoris said:
But seriously:  how fracked in the head would you have to be to believe that anybody under the age of 18 (I would say 21) should be allowed to legally possess and carry a firearm???

Malcolm wrote:
I was taught to shoot when I was seven, and allowed to use firearms from that point on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Cessations are not nonexistences, since in cessation there is no existence of which one may speak of a nonexistence.

Astus said:
Cessation refers to the end of afflictions, so it is in a way the non-existence, or annihilation of afflictions. What it is not the annihilation of is the self, since that has never existed in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on which cessation we are discussing, analytical or nonanalytical: even so, when there is no cause for a given thing to arise, speaking of its nonexistence is also inappropriate, as the Buddha points out in the Sutta Nipatta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
That's was the point that I was making, i.e. that not all Budddhists went as far as the Madhyamaka (and the Sautrantika) in their negation of ontological status of Nirvana (and of "dharmas" in general).

Astus said:
Ontologically talking is perhaps going a bit too far, as the meaning of "dharma" is more along the line of category than substance.
in Shravakyana the anatman teaching does not rule out the possibility of something unconditioned and not unreal
Being a cessation does not make it unreal.

"is called Nibbāna because it is a departure from craving, which is an entanglement.
Though Nibbāna is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, by reference to a basis (for distinction), it is twofold, namely, the element of Nibbāna with a residue remaining, and the element of Nibbāna without the residue remaining. It is threefold according to its different aspects, namely, void, signless, and desireless."
(A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 258-259)

"In fact nibbāna, as an unconditioned reality, has simply the nature of cessation called “the characteristic of peacefulness” (santilakkhaṇā). It is the cessation of the defilements and the rounds of suffering. Or, it is the nonexistence of conditioned phenomena (visaṅkhāra), the cessation of conditioned phenomena, and the opposite of what is conditioned."
"If the nibbāna element does not exist, then the cessation of the mental and physical processes or the aggregates could not happen. Thus it is not true that the nibbāna element is nothing, like the concept of nonexistence. Being the object of path and fruition, it is obvious in an ultimate sense. And because it is so obvious, the constantly arising mental and physical processes or aggregates in a person who practices correctly do not arise anymore after that person’s parinibbāna. Then, they are able to cease forever. It means that the cessation is something that can be obvious."
(Mahasi Sayadaw: Manual of Insight p 454, 456)

Malcolm wrote:
Cessations are not nonexistences, since in cessation there is no existence of which one may speak of a nonexistence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Somehow I don't think that some pencil-necked-geek hacking into a three hour Dharma teaching on the nature of mind, is going to bring about the downfall of the Vajryana...

Malcolm wrote:
No, but people volunteering the substance of vajrayāna practices, mantras, images of yidams, protectors, and so on certainly will.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
I think it depends on context. If Secret Mantra is practised within the context of Sutra, for example within the context of Lamrim teachings, then secrecy is not necessary because the practice will be correctly intentioned and not misused. It must be presented within the context of a complete path to enlightenment. Traditionally within Tibetan Buddhism though, Secret Mantra is very secret.

Malcolm wrote:
Secret mantra is called secret because it is supposed to be kept secret, period.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Empty Desire said:
I wanted to start a thread about this important subject that keeps re-occurring in various threads.

Secret Mantra began in India with Mahasiddhas like Tilopa and was transmitted to Tibet by Marpa and Padmasambhava and others.

Tibet is a mountain-locked country, historically difficult to access, where Esoteric Teachings like Tantrayana/Vajrayana were as I read were often transmitted and practised in secret and remote locations at night in some cases.

Now with the advent of the Airplane, Globalism, Smartphones and Macs. Tantrayana is accessible in a way that hitherto hasn't been possible.

Also, we live in a Global Village where Privacy is a thing of the past, Data on all kinds of aspects is recorded and finally we are encouraged by Social Media to document every last facet of our lives for everyone to see.

The aspect of Secrecy is important so I wonder what are the most important things practitioners should keep in mind?

I'm not asking anyone to divulge anything that needs to be private it's more of a meta-discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
"“During the degenerate age, the last five hundred years...it is an age when mantrikas are unable to keep secrets."
--Rig pa rang shar.

So, crucially important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Rick said:
So your understanding is that Advaita says brahman cannot be said to existent, but it can be experienced to be existent?

(Careful, trick question!)

Malcolm wrote:
No, he is saying that Advaita claims brahmin can be known/realized directly through a nonconceptual intuition that cannot be expressed in words or symbols.

Rick said:
What I’ve been taught is that enlightenment is an event in the mind after which you know that the scriptures are true: You are atman, atman is brahman, brahman is the one without a second. Any subjective experience of realization (or anything else) is considered to be mithya. Not sure how that jibes with what you said?

Malcolm wrote:
Think about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
how do we reconcile

Astus said:
Your quote refers to the difference between conceptual and experiential, learning and realisation.

Rick said:
So your understanding is that Advaita says brahman cannot be said to existent, but it can be experienced to be existent?

(Careful, trick question!)

Malcolm wrote:
No, he is saying that Advaita claims brahmin can be known/realized directly through a nonconceptual intuition that cannot be expressed in words or symbols. If it can't be known through such a nonconceptual intuition, there is no possibility of liberation, and Advaita would be pointless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha's response to this is simple:

" Matter is empty, emptiness is matter. Apart from matter there is no emptiness, apart from emptiness there is no matter."

Rick said:
You don't translate it as "Form is empty, emptiness is form." Is 'matter' a more accurate English term in this context than 'form?'

Malcolm wrote:
The matter in question is the material aggregate, composed of the four elements.

Rick said:
The two truths are inseparable. There are no phenomena apart from conventional phenomena, conventional phenomena themselves are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from conventional phenomena.
Gotcha. Thing is, emptiness is way harder to get your head around than brahman. (Unless you're OCD like me and worry the c'hell out of the 'exact' nature of brahman.) So, as a teaching methodology, brahman is (I'm guessing) more effective for more students than sunyata. It's a bit like a fairy tale vs. a sober dissertation ... both of which are, ultimately, just buncha concepts flying around and pushing human buttons.

Malcolm wrote:
People like to believe the ultimate is something, even if that something is inexpressible. Since in Buddhadharma there is no ultimate apart from the relative, emptiness is only hard to understand for those who wish there to be some permanent, ultimate something which is not dependently originated. Awakening in Buddhadharma comes from understanding the ultimate nature (emptiness) of relative phenomena (dependent origination). There is nothing to realize other than this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
If brahman cannot be expressed as existent or non-existent, it cannot be (rightly) said that brahman is the single existent being.
But, yes, the Vedas say o'er and o'er a-gain that brahman exists.

I asked my teacher about the inherent Catch-22 in speaking/thinking of a non-thing that has zero attributes. He acknowledged the problematic nature of this but asked me: How else can one teach that the conventional consensus reality phenomenological world (world of form) was not all-there-is? And thus, at the highest (non-)level of realization, even atman/brahman are seen for what they truly are: metaphors, symbols on the map.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha's response to this is simple:

" Matter is empty, emptiness is matter. Apart from matter there is no emptiness, apart from emptiness there is no matter."

The two truths are inseparable. There are no phenomena apart from conventional phenomena, conventional phenomena themselves are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from conventional phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



heart said:
You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Malcolm wrote:
Leave and find a better guru.

heart said:
You can leave, you can find an other Guru, but you are still in great debt to the Guru that introduced you to the natural state. You can't ever really turn your back on him/her as you are bound by Samaya, the Samaya of the natural state. Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Honestly Magnus, your going on and on about hypothetical gurus is a little strange. Your guru is the nicest person imaginable, and there is no doubt he is quite beyond such behavior himself. So why even bring it up? It is not like you yourself are facing such an issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
heart said:
Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh yes, "I got mine" and screw everyone else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Tummo and Tsa Lung Meditation
Content:


Palzang Jangchub said:
But by all means, continue to believe that this is more damaging to Vajrayana Dharma than the actual abuse of students by teachers, sexually, physically, emotionally, and mentally.  You are backed up by the traditional texts, but they were operating in the same culture of patriarchy that allowed for (and I daresay even supported) such abuse.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna will survive sex scandals. It won't survive samaya breakage, such as when students randomly share secret teachings with strangers on the internet in the mistaken belief they are being "helpful." Samaya breakage was the reason Vajrayāna disappeared in India, it is the reason why Tibet fell, and it is the reason why Vajrayāna in the world today is merely a faint reflection in the mirror.

Palzang Jangchub said:
While you're at it, please tell us which precise empowerment needs to be obtained by those interested in the OM AH HUNG vajra recitation so that they can engage in the practice properly.

Malcolm wrote:
Guhyasamaja, etc., any niruttarayoga empowerment, or any empowerment from the three inner tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Tummo and Tsa Lung Meditation
Content:
Palzang Jangchub said:
Malcolm, these are publicly posted teachings available online, with no mention of restrictions or empowerment. The OM AH HUNG vajra recitation is given freely and even in public settings.  The teachings on the Six Yogas are general and don't involve actual practice instructions from what I remember, hence Eric has shared them on his website.  If Garchen Rinpoche says I'm not breaching samaya, I'm confident that I'm not breaching it.  I can appreciate it that your stance is more conservative than mine, as there are many different interpretations of samaya and how strictly we should keep things secret.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a teacher, then you can take responsibility. But these things are secret and should remain so. "Secret" means not sharing them with people who have no empowerment.

The reason why Vajrayāna is decline is not sex scandals with gurus, it because people do not keep secret what is supposed to be secret. Vajra recitation is a completion stage practice. It is therefore secret.

If you want to share secret vajrayāna instructions with people you don't know over the internet, who state very clearly they have no empowerments, no guru,and thus no samaya and little understanding, and in the process break your own samaya, please do so by private message.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Turning daily life into retreat
Content:
Sennin said:
Of course allocating time to practice is not the same as boundaried retreat; due to constant distraction and concerns. Even so I'm interested in the possibility of accomplishing sadhana in daily life.

How much time (and of course diligence, patience etc.) is needed to pull this off? Would one focus more on practicing until signs, instead of by number or time?
Is it even possible?

Malcolm wrote:
Work nine to five, practice 7-11, rinse repeat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Tummo and Tsa Lung Meditation
Content:
Palzang Jangchub said:
These might help:

Lamp flame meditation and OM AH HUNG vajra recitation, including video:
http://garchen.tw/English/News/NewsInPage/8


https://www.facebook.com/garcheninstitute/posts/vajra-recitation-of-om-ah/468999119816198/

Garchen Rinpoche on the Six Yogas of Naropa:
http://www.buddhavisions.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Garchen-Rinpoche-on-the-Six-Dharmas-of-Naropa.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
These practices are restricted to those with empowerment. Sharing them with those who do no have empowerment is by definition a breach of samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


tranides said:
Otherwise why would we have Ngondro - instead we just could recive the same (or other) abishekas each day and it would give the same effect.

Malcolm wrote:
This, in fact is the Lamdre approach. Practicing the Time of the Path sadhana with the full empowerments is considered more essential than doing ngondro repetitions. Not that ngondro is bad, it just isn't as essential.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Rick said:
Per Advaita, brahman cannot be negated. But brahman cannot be said to exist or not to exist. So it's complicated ...

Just as a reminder, I am NOT a qualified expert on Advaita, so what I say about it should not be taken as 'certified.'

Malcolm wrote:
The fact that brahmin is immune to negation means it is an inherent existent, meaning it is sat, real. To say that it cannot be said to exist or not exist means conventionally. Brahmin is beyond such conventions, and therefore, it, according to its exponents, cannot be negated through conventional reasoning. This is very unacceptable from a buddhist pov.

Rick said:
Since brahman is not knowable, findable, experienceable, how can you know that it is not just a fairy tale? You can't, directly. You need to believe the word of the sages in the Upanishads. (Advaita is an astika teaching methodology, it accepts the ultimate authority of the Vedas.) Eventually, I am told, you come to rest in the knowledge that you are brahman ... but since I'm not there (yet), I can't say anything definitive about it.

Yes, very different from Buddhism, which afaik is a nastika methodology.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, Buddha negated sruti as a pramana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Rick said:
Advaita does pretty much the same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
According to you, Advaita insists that one cannot negate being. According to Buddhadharma, being cannot be established.

Rick said:
Per Advaita, brahman cannot be negated. But brahman cannot be said to exist or not to exist. So it's complicated ...

Just as a reminder, I am NOT a qualified expert on Advaita, so what I say about it should not be taken as 'certified.'

Malcolm wrote:
The fact that brahmin is immune to negation means it is an inherent existent, meaning it is sat, real. To say that it cannot be said to exist or not exist means conventionally. Brahmin is beyond such conventions, and therefore, it, according to its exponents, cannot be negated through conventional reasoning. This is very unacceptable from a buddhist pov.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Astus said:
Buddhism does not debate conventional reality. It only points out that it is merely conventional, that is, conceptual fabrication.

Rick said:
Advaita does pretty much the same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
According to you, Advaita insists that one cannot negate being. According to Buddhadharma, being cannot be established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



heart said:
You know what I am talking about Malcolm. You yourself have said here a number of times that these Gurus are no real Gurus since they abused someone.

Malcolm wrote:
As have a number of esteemed lamas such as Migyur Rinpoche, and so on.


heart said:
You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Malcolm wrote:
Leave and find a better guru.


heart said:
I think "keeping the blinders on" isn't viable possibility. This is a genuine horror show that somehow don't seem to be a part of this discussion.


Malcolm wrote:
In the contrary, it has been part of the discussion.

heart said:
I also would like to say that I have been around Vajrayana for a long time and heard all kind of stories of about all kind of Gurus and if having sex with a student always is abuse...

Malcolm wrote:
As in any thing, the perception of harm depends on the student. And mind we are only talking about women students (Male students do not generally find themselves receiving unwanted attentions of their male gurus. It does happen, as in the case of the Regent, but it is exceedingly rare. Though with more westerners adopting the guru role, it is certain to become more common as more gay men become Vajrayāna teachers). Back to the point, you live in Sweden -- Swedish laws around sexual misconduct are very strict. Much of the behavior we hear about is quite definitely actionable criminal behavior under Swedish law. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has a very sensible approach to these issues -- rather than insisting that Vajrayāna masters are above normal moral, legal, and ethical constraints, he observes that if one follows Dzogchen rules, one is likely to get arrested in Italy. So in Italy, one follows Italian rules, not Dzogchen rules. If Vajrayāna gurus do not have enough sense to understand the place where they live or are traveling, this calls into question both their wisdom and their skillful means. Of course, from some people's POV I am being a "moralist" and should "just go back to Mahāyāna" because I "can't handle Vajrayāna."

heart said:
then no-one here seems to be as safe as they think they are.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is definitely the case that the day where Vajrayāna masters could prey on their women disciples with impunity has come to an end, so yes, Vajrayāna masters are not as safe as they once were. They are going to have to shape up and understand that Western women, in increasingly, Tibetan women, are not going to stand for the continuation of the patriarchal exploitation in Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism in general. #Timesup


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 11:23 AM
Title: Re: Help needed!
Content:
PeterC said:
A Gelugpa lama who is a friend of mine recently gave me an unexpected and extremely generous gift.  I want to reciprocate with something he needs - I asked his students and they said that a few times he’s mentioned wanting a Tibetan copy of the complete works of Tsonkhapa.  Does anyone know where I could procure a good quality print edition?  Cost is not an issue.

Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
tibetbook.net


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
conebeckham said:
Well, tendrel implies something beyond self-sufficiency, Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
It is called rang ‘byung ye shes for a reason.

Beyond that, if one cannot recognize abuse as abuse, one has ethical challenges.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
smcj said:
What I am doing is saying that the present dramas do not invalidate the principle of Guru Yoga.

Aryjna said:
This is absolutely irrelevant. What does Guruyoga have to do with this matter.

heart said:
It has a lot to do with it. Imagine that the Lama you feel introduced you to the nature of mind is suddenly called an abuser, what would you do? It is pretty strange that the discussion here not even touch on this subject since this is supposed to be a Vajrayana forum. Do you invalidate your recognition based on what someone else tell you about your masters behavior? Just think about it will you.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
If the person who introduces you to the nature of mind the abuses people, then he or she abuses people. You can either continue to keep your blinders on or you can acknowledge the truth. It won't change your recognition one way or another.

On the other hand, many people fool themselves into believing they have encountered the mind essence, and equally, there are unscrupulous teachers who have no  qualifications to evaluate such an encounter, who lie to their students in order to appeal to the latter's egos.

Since you bring up the fact that this is a Vajrayāna forum, these points of view must also be considered. The reality, Dear Magnus, is that no one can introduce one to the mind essence. You must discover it on your own, a guru is merely a guide who helps you with the process of self-discovery, but the actual recognition is your job.

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the connate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru, 
time and method, and from one’s merit.
-- Hevajra Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


smcj said:
I’ve speculated elsewhere that perhaps Vajrayana should not be taught to westerners. If it comes to the point where secularism triumphs over Vajrayana view I will feel certain of it.

Malcolm wrote:
This is called closing the barn door after the horses have escaped.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 12:54 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Per process philosophy what 'exists' are dynamic events. Madhyamaka refutes the existence of fixed substances, not of dynamic events. Or?

Astus said:
Does that dynamic event exist in the present, the past, or the future? If it is in the past or the future, it is non-existent. If it is in the present, how is it an event?

Rick said:
Per process philosophy, there are no enduring substances, only 'momentary events of experience' called actual entities which unfold over time (as a process unfolds over time). So, to your question:

> Does that dynamic event [actual entity] exist in the present, the past, or the future?

I couldn't find a definitive answer to this. According to the process philosophy savvy people I spoke with, it's a subtle and tricky question.

Actual entities play out over time, so past present future are all involved. But the existence part is where things get fuzzy. I'd say actual entities exist, but not in the conventional way of existing. The *flow* exists, but there is no-thing (no substance) that is flowing. (This reminds me of the causal non-substance flow of Pratītyasamutpāda.)

Malcolm wrote:
This does not go beyond Sautrantika tenets.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Egg-shaped vase-like thing next to Garab Dorje in images
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Out of curiosity, anyone know what the egg-shaped, vase-like things is to the right of Garab Dorje (and many other Dzogchen lineage masters) is?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/dc/02/b5/dc02b59b6e6735feaec074569d0d1c50.jpg

Malcolm wrote:
It is a basket.

Pema Rigdzin said:
Does it symbolize holding the whole Dzogchen teachings, ie "Dzogchen pitaka"? If not, what does it symbolize? I only remember seeing it next to Dzogchen masters.

Malcolm wrote:
It's where you store your stuff.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Egg-shaped vase-like thing next to Garab Dorje in images
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Out of curiosity, anyone know what the egg-shaped, vase-like things is to the right of Garab Dorje (and many other Dzogchen lineage masters) is?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/dc/02/b5/dc02b59b6e6735feaec074569d0d1c50.jpg

Malcolm wrote:
It is a basket.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:
LoveFromColorado said:
Thanks Kevin.  I'm in Colorado Springs so that is about a five hour trip one way.  With wife, kids, and work it can be a challenge to make such a trip regularly.  There is a Nyingma sangha in Denver that is about an hour away but even that can be tough to get to with my schedule.  Still trying... I wish a sangha would formulate in Colorado Springs - it seems the more remote scenic vistas are where they tend to be.

Malcolm wrote:
There are Lamas who teach Dzogchen all over Colorado. You just have to look harder. Colorado, like CA, is Nyingma central in the USA.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
So............ back to topic.

To reframe the question:

To take an empowerment without the intent to practice it... Or maybe without the intent to practice it continually until attainment. Should this be avoided? I'm sure many practitioners have received 10s if not 100s of transmissions and empowerments over the years. But there's no way anyone can practice all of that each day. So then, what's the point?

Malcolm wrote:
Tendrel.

SilenceMonkey said:
I assume that it would be to create a positive connection to Dharma (that teaching and teacher and lineage). Is this not what it means to "take empowerment as a blessing?"

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


SilenceMonkey said:
Is it advisable to take empowerments outside of your own lineage, if only to establish a connection?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you have a sincere interest in the teacher in question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This more consistent with the mind series. The Man ngag sde series maintains that appearances are the rtsal or potential of vidyā (rig pa). This potential becomes the mind when it mixes with the karmavāyu from our breathing. This point is discussed in the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.

LoveFromColorado said:
Thanks Malcolm!  I am new to some of these terms, so please pardon my ignorance here.  To restate in my own small terms, would it be safe to say that what you stated regarding the Man ngag sde series could be coarsely interpreted to say that when the potential of rigpa (which I get) mixes with with the energy of our past actions that it then becomes appearances?  I'm new to the concept of karmavāyu but am certainly interested.

Malcolm wrote:
You should study these teachings systematically under a qualified teacher. Not piecemeal from debates on the internet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:
krodha said:
The view is that the so-called external world is not mind, nor is it other than mind.

Adepts such as Longchenpa were very cautious in their explanation of this issue and are in no way advocating for a concrete, artifact-like external world.

LoveFromColorado said:
Can someone summarize the explanation of this point?  Sorry if this is an intrusion.  In my studies of Alan Wallace's introduction to Dzogchen, he seems to articulate that space and everything we experience is a manifestation of our own pristine awareness.  I'm curious how this coincides here with this point.

Malcolm wrote:
This more consistent with the mind series. The Man ngag sde series maintains that appearances are the rtsal or potential of vidyā (rig pa). This potential becomes the mind when it mixes with the karmavāyu from our breathing. This point is discussed in the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:



florin said:
The tatagatagarbha chapter from Longhenpa's trilogy of rest explains...

Malcolm wrote:
I directed you to look at the Tshig don mdzod, chapter three. He introduces the chapter saying, "Then, the explanation of how buddhagarbha permeates the sattvadhātu and the way it is exists.

He begins by quoting the Mirror of the Essence of Vajrasattva above. He then cites the Fine Inlay ofJewels:

Just as oil has always been naturally present in
sesame or mustard seed,
within the deceptive appearance of the bodies of sentient beings
the seed of the tathāgatas
appears with matching light.

The Sound Tantra states:

The pristine consciousness of one's vidyā abides in the body, 
like oil in sesame seed. 
The glow and brightness of the body
has always been permeated with the moistness of pristine consciousness.


And the Self-Arisen Vidyā:

The transcendent state of perfect buddhas
exists in the forms of kāyas and pristine consciousness
in the personal continuums of all sentient beings.


Having introduced these citations, he turns to sūtras and tantras of the common vehicles, citing long passages from the Nirvana Sūtra, Hevajra, the Dohas and so on, concluding that all of these citations together, including those from the man nga sde tantras above, demonstrate the existence of the sugatagarbha element in the continuums of sentient beings. He then goes on to criticize those who maintain that sugatagarbha is merely the emptiness of the mind itself, and so on. He then goes on to describe how the tathāgatagarbha doctrine is definitive, and so on.  Finally describing how sugatagarbha is present as five kāyas, five pristine consciousnesses, the five lights, the five families, the five vāyus of pristine consciousness, the five qualities of essence, nature, and compassion, the five afflictions, the five aggregates, the five elements, the five sense organs, the five desirable objects, and the five qualities of the three doors, citing the String of Pearls Tantra which explains all of this.

For Longchenpa the pristine consciousness of vidyā is nothing other than tathāgatagarbha. And according to ChNN, there is no Tibetan whose writings on the Great Perfection are more definitive than Longchenpa's. So we can understand the above to be ChNN's own view as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 2:43 PM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:
jnanasutra said:
Also, interesting to note that Malcolm refers to the basis as the “seed of budhahood,” i.e. the Sugatagarbha or Tathagatagarbha, in deluded sentient beings.  Interesting thought, an individual’s basis as a seed.  I believe the gelugpas would agree

florin said:
I don't think that tatagathgarba view has much in common with dzogchen view.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a bit of an overstatement to claim the view of Dzogchen has nothing in common with tathāgatagarbha view. Longchenpa would strongly disagree with you. After all, he spends the entirety of chapter three of the Tshig don mdzod explaining the precise relevance of tathāgatagarbha view to Dzogchen.


Further, the entire subject of chapter 39 of the Kun byed rgyal po is tathāgatagarbha, called here "jinagarbha."

florin said:
Then, bodhicitta, the All-Creating King, taught that his nature was the jinagarbha, lacking deviation and obscuration in everything.

Malcolm wrote:
Further, the Mirror of the Essence of Vajrasattva states:
The tathāgatagarbha exists intrinsically in all sentient beings. That exists just as sesame seeds are permeated with oil. Its basis — it is based on the material aggregate. It’s location — it is located in the center of the heart.


The Mind Mirror of Samantabhadra states:
The diverse miraculous display arises from state of inseparability, the ultimate sugatagarbha.
The Self-arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
The meaning of utter purity and sugatagarbha is nondual, the same.
The Wheel of Life states:
If play arises within limitations, it is the sugatagarbha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Palzang Jangchub said:
The ThinkProgress article read like he was only accused, not that he'd given an admission of guilt. If i missed tat somehow, please post the link(s).

Also, "plead guilty" makes it sound like he admitted this after being finally charged by the law and having his day in court.
Rinzler was “heartbroken” over the “real mistakes” he made with Amy, Simmer-Brown wrote

Malcolm wrote:
This is what he was "heartbroken" about, the "real mistake" he made:
In a last-ditch effort to get through to Rinzler, she told him again that she didn’t want to have sex, and when he asked why, she revealed that she’d been sexually abused in the past. Instead of offering understanding and empathy, Amy said, Rinzler suggested that sleeping with him could help her break through the trust issues from her past trauma.

Then he began to touch her again, and she froze. She felt paralyzed, she said in an interview — as if she wasn’t in control of her own body. Tired, drunk, and dissociated, she said that she performed oral sex on Rinzler in the hope it would make him stop.

“I thought, ‘OK, I’m doing this to get him off of me without having to have sex with him and just survive,'” she said.
This guy is a boundary-less creep. Not someone who can be trusted with with students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No form of existence can be ultimately established. There is no being to negate.

Rick said:
I.e. Sunyata 101: Nothing exists inherently.

?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, since nothing exists inherently, there is no being to negate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?
Content:



Jangchup Donden said:
Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today?  Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.

Jangchup Donden said:
Yet the Buddha would have remained with us until the end of the Kalpa if Ananda had asked.  Isn't that simply a case of lack of merit/interdependence?

Is Amitabha not doing his pure land any favors by sticking around so long?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha demonstrated nirvana in order to teach us impermanence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Is there anything that cannot be negated in Buddhism? Can one's existence be negated? Or would it be right-er in Buddhism to say: I neither am, nor am not, nor neither, nor both? To what extent does the answer depend on the Buddhist school/tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
More to the point, no form of existence can be ultimately established.

Rick said:
What about the kind of existence with which a process is said to exist? (As in process philosophy.) An ever-changing web of dynamic intercausality kind of (non-substance) thingie ...

Lemme guess: Since, ultimately (paramartha), there is no causality, no processes, no interdependent webs, my question is a non-starter. Close?

Malcolm wrote:
No form of existence can be ultimately established. There is no being to negate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


chimechodra said:
So ultimately I noticed that for myself and other folk, if you were genuinely interested in the teachings, often times that would help prove the impetus to break free of Shambhala. But by the time genuine devotion for the teachings has arisen, it has been intermingled with loyalty to Shambhala and the institution and all the myths surrounding Trungpa and the Sakyong, and then teachers around you will often advise against "spiritual shopping" with the intent of keeping you locked into Shambhala.

Malcolm wrote:
This is called "Corporate Dharma."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: How to Make Long-Life Prayer More Effective?
Content:



Jangchup Donden said:
Do you think we wouldn't be better off if Shakyamuni Buddha were still physically present with us today?  Or if Guru Rinpoche was still physically present with us?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, because we would not take impermanence to heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2018 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma can never be tainted.



Rinchen Samphel said:
For some reason this solves my worry from my previous post too, thanks Malcolm.

Karma Dorje said:
That's true, but the conditions for it to manifest in this world can definitely disappear. I think that wrongdoing by Dharma teachers is far more injurious to these conditions than any attempts by naysayers to tear down religious institutions out of malice.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the Buddha said Dharma can only de destroyed from within.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Palzang Jangchub said:
I keep coming back to the fact that legitimate Dharma teachings can be given by messed up individuals.

Malcolm wrote:
But they have no blessings.

Palzang Jangchub said:
Incidentally, is there any legit Buddhadharma on not leaping to judgment when an individual is accused of misconduct? How about defamation of character?

Malcolm wrote:
One complaint, reserve judgment. Two complaints, raise eyebrow. Multitude of complaints -- pitchfork and torches time.

Palzang Jangchub said:
I guess it boils down to not wanting Lodro Rinzler to be guilty of this.

Malcolm wrote:
He pleaded guilty to being a creep and intimidating a women into giving him head, who repeatedly said no to him. Worse, he tried to convince her a sexual experience with him would help her get over her own sexual abuse issues. This is called "date rape,"

Palzang Jangchub said:
How many enemies of Dharma will see this as a golden opportunity to falsely accuse others out of malice towards these individuals and the organizations they're associated with? I think this is a question worth asking ourselves. False accusations can be just as damaging, and it's quite hard to change public opinion, even when claims can be proven false. Narratives tend to take on a life of their own once they're out in the ether...

Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma can never be tainted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 8:23 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
Appearances can be deceiving. We can't read people's minds, nor can we know anything about their experience. This is basic.

Malcolm wrote:
Pro tip: the Buddha accepted inference as a valid form of knowledge.

kausalya said:
My mind is unreliable; I play it safe by being an idiot.

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever sold you that bill of goods did you a disservice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 8:19 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
Appearances can be deceiving. We can't read people's minds, nor can we know anything about their experience. This is basic.

Malcolm wrote:
Pro tip: the Buddha accepted inference as a valid form of knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
Meanwhile, all I see myself doing is being cautious about judging the actions/appearances of others

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty easy to see who is worldly, who is not, who is virtuous, who is not, etc. If you can't discern even such basic things...it is unlikely you can discern who is a proper teacher and who is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
kausalya said:
As students, we can't say much.

Malcolm wrote:
For a student who can't say much, you sure have a lot to say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You think karma relieves you of choice?

Losal Samten said:
Volition is karma isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
He means karma in the sense of vipaka, ripening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:



kausalya said:
Negating what?

Malcolm wrote:
Reread the thread, friend.

kausalya said:
If I've ignored something, it's to refocus on what I consider to be important, which is "not to deter from tantric practice anyone having confidence in it."

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so its all about you and what you consider important. Got it. Good to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
kausalya said:
I've got about as little choice as you do, given the state of my karma.

Malcolm wrote:
You think karma relieves you of choice?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
kausalya said:
Why worry about what others are doing?

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
I just realize I have no control over anything, so that's how it goes. I can only practice to be better at living, and communicate with those who see something valuable in what I say.

Malcolm wrote:
While uselessly negating the valuable things others say...get the picture?

kausalya said:
Negating what?

Malcolm wrote:
Reread the thread, friend.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
I just realize I have no control over anything, so that's how it goes. I can only practice to be better at living, and communicate with those who see something valuable in what I say.

Malcolm wrote:
While uselessly negating the valuable things others say...get the picture?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:



kausalya said:
Not so. Your karma dictates what you see.

Malcolm wrote:
It is so, just open your eyes and look around you.

kausalya said:
I do! Hello to you.

My behaviour is my only concern. As for others, I only have compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
That is very nice for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
From our perspective, we don't know who is a dharma person and who is not.


Malcolm wrote:
It is evident from people's behavior.

kausalya said:
Not so. Your karma dictates what you see.

Malcolm wrote:
It is so, just open your eyes and look around you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


kausalya said:
From our perspective, we don't know who is a dharma person and who is not.


Malcolm wrote:
It is evident from people's behavior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If you have a attachment to this life, you are not a Dharma person.

-- Mañjuśṛī to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.

Jangchup Donden said:
Then wouldn't you have to be enlightened to be a Dharma person?

Malcolm wrote:
No, you merely need to understand there is more than just this life and act accordingly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



Josef said:
Not at all surprising.
Having met Rinzler I have always been shocked that he is considered a teacher and has been able to get published.
The vetting process for "teachers" in Shambhala is absurdly vacuous.

conebeckham said:
I don't disagree, but.....what vetting process?  For any teacher?  Including Tibetan Lamas?

I mean, yes, some centers, esp. those established by major lineage figures, have appointed teachers and there is vetting going on, but these days there are many centers that have been set up by people, of any race/ethnicity/background, with no "vetting process."

Shambhala, being a more established institution, should have had checks and balances in place of course, but at the end of the day.....students need to have Eyes Wide Open.

Josef said:
I was primarily referring to the “acharyas” within the organization.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we should not paint them all with the same brush.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Terma said:
On another level, do you think that lack of merit can be a cause for someone to get involved with these kinds of organizations and "teachers"?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha predicted the rise of counterfeit Dharma, and so did Padmasambhava. Counterfeit Dharma existed during the time of the Buddha in the form of Devadatta's teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
when common people goes around for blessing from an empowerment I would say they want a mundane blessing.

kausalya said:
Mundane blessings are what some people need.

Malcolm wrote:
Then they should ask for a pat on the head and a blessing cord, not an empowerment.

javier.espinoza.t said:
they want the world, they don't want to free themselves.

if this isn't degeneration I don't know what is it.

kausalya said:
Not degeneration.


Malcolm wrote:
If you have a attachment to this life, you are not a Dharma person.

-- Mañjuśṛī to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Terma said:
If one is really serious about their practice, then isn't it best to seek out authentic Master's from authentic lineages?

Malcolm wrote:
People think Trungpa was an authentic master, given the sheer amount of accolade he is accorded by highly respected Tibetan masters such as Dzongsar Khyentse and so on. Since they think Trungpa is authentic, it is not hard to understand why they think Shambhala is authentic. Since they think Shambhala is authentic, they think the teachers in Shambhala are authentic.

Trungpa is kind of the third rail in Tibetan Buddhism. Many people do not actually approve of him, but since he built a very successful organization, no one in the Tibetan hierarchy will directly criticize him. For this reason, people will continue to be attracted to Shambhala. They have turned Trungpa into a very successful brand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 24th, 2018 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Taking Empowerment as a Blessing
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
I'm somewhat new to Tibetan style Buddhism. As I'm navigating this world of empowerments and gurus, I'm a little confused about the nature of public teachings. Some people say it's a great opportunity, that you need empowerment to be able to practice, etc... Others say all it is is symbolic and is basically just a blessing, no real empowerments are given at these big teachings. Others say it's a waste of time, just take empowerments from your own guru (and lineage).

I've looked around a bit, and haven't found much yet about what it means to "take empowerment as a blessing." It seems Kalu Rinpoche has said one can take empowerment with the intention 1) To take it merely for blessing, 2) To practice at some point in the future, 3) To practice immediately. Is intention all that is needed to make an empowerment either a blessing or an initiation? How does one go about "taking empowerment as a blessing" (say, if one does not wish to actually practice it every day or at all)?

Is it wise to take many empowerments as blessings, perhaps to create good karmic links with many teachers and lineages? Or would it merely confuse the mind and the spirit?


Malcolm wrote:
Take empowerments because you are interested in the teacher, if you are only interested in the teaching, don't go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 24th, 2018 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:



Kunzang Tobgyal said:
I talked to Rinpoche yesterday and he himself wasn't exactly sure. So I think at this point if we really want to find out we have two options;

1: see if we can contact the translator. She may know.

2: contact the office of Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoche and see if we can find out directly from him.

I still have the feeling that it's the Sogdrub based on a few things Dudjom Yangsi mentioned. But we just don't know.

At this point just say the mantra as much as you can. And visualize etc.

Malcolm wrote:
The regular drollo is s full empowerment, Sogdrub is a torwang, and yes contact Chris Munson she is the translator.

Kunzang Tobgyal said:
Fantastic. How would we contact her?

Malcolm wrote:
Christina Monson, try and contact her through facebook I do not have her email.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 24th, 2018 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
In Advaita, the only thing that cannot be negated (seen to be ultimately un-real) is one's own existence: I Am. (I'm not opening a conversation about Advaita vs. Buddhism. Been there, done that! I just used Advaita as an example of a tradition that relies on via negativa negation.)

Is there anything that cannot be negated in Buddhism? Can one's existence be negated? Or would it be right-er in Buddhism to say: I neither am, nor am not, nor neither, nor both? To what extent does the answer depend on the Buddhist school/tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
More to the point, no form of existence can be ultimately established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 23rd, 2018 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:


Kunzang Tobgyal said:
Interesting. I'll try to find out later today from Sonam Rinpoche who requested the empowerment.

On a side note, but somewhat related; what would the Dorje Drollö we received from Kunzang Dechen Lingpa be regarded as? Inner or outer?

Tlalok said:
Could you relay what you learn from Khenpo Sonam Rinpoche? I was also at this empowerment and I would love to put this into practice.

Kunzang Tobgyal said:
I talked to Rinpoche yesterday and he himself wasn't exactly sure. So I think at this point if we really want to find out we have two options;

1: see if we can contact the translator. She may know.

2: contact the office of Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoche and see if we can find out directly from him.

I still have the feeling that it's the Sogdrub based on a few things Dudjom Yangsi mentioned. But we just don't know.

At this point just say the mantra as much as you can. And visualize etc.

Malcolm wrote:
The regular drollo is s full empowerment, Sogdrub is a torwang, and yes contact Chris Munson she is the translator.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 23rd, 2018 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:


Kunzang Tobgyal said:
On a side note, but somewhat related; what would the Dorje Drollö we received from Kunzang Dechen Lingpa be regarded as? Inner or outer?

Malcolm wrote:
Inner. It and the Pema Sogthig are basically the same, however, Pema Sogthig is a bit more elaborate. Mantras are different. Also, there is no separate empowerment for KDL's inner Drollo sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 23rd, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:



Kunzang Tobgyal said:
He mentioned it was Dudjom Rinpoche's Mind Terma which would make it the Dudjom Traktung Pema Sokdrub Zabmo. You can get it here; http://www.dharmatreasures.com/dorje-drollo-thrak-thung/

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not Pema Sogthig. Probably the outer Drollo sadhana, both are mind treasures.

Kunzang Tobgyal said:
Hmmmm... i wonder. He mentioned it was Dudjom Rinpoche's heart practice as well as his own. Are the root mantras the same? That would be one way to determine.


Malcolm wrote:
Identical. I have received them both. Pema Sogthig is generally practiced after having done the outer sadhana. The daily practice is called yang gsar bdud 'dul gro lod kyi rgyun khyer snying por dril ba.

Also, Pema Sogthig has its own brief torma empowerment. Sometime both forms are combined together for convenience. All of the activities however, are connected with the more general form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 1:08 PM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:
Kunzang Tobgyal said:
https://mailchi.mp/f27fdd425cfe/hh-dudjom-sangye-pema-shepa-rinpoche?e=f4a440f763

RoadToPines said:
Can you please say what text we were working from for the Dorje Drolo empowerment? The translator went so fast I missed the author and title of the text. Or is there a site where I can read the sadhana?

Kunzang Tobgyal said:
He mentioned it was Dudjom Rinpoche's Mind Terma which would make it the Dudjom Traktung Pema Sokdrub Zabmo. You can get it here; http://www.dharmatreasures.com/dorje-drollo-thrak-thung/

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not Pema Sogthig. Probably the outer Drollo sadhana, both are mind treasures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: What's the meaning of "life is duhhka"?
Content:
Happiness said:
The first noble truth is life is duhhka,

Malcolm wrote:
No, the first truth of āryas is sarvadukkha, suffering is everywhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
Historically the whole Shentong thing started when a Sakya scholar met a group of Kalachakra practitioners that had gained realization.

Malcolm wrote:
The Jonangpas would take exception to Dolbupa being called a Sakyapa.


smcj said:
They said emptiness was not at all the way it was presented in Madhyamaka. So the scholar took it upon himself to take what these guys were saying and then went back and reinterpreted a bunch of classic texts from their perspective so as to legitimize what they were saying to a greater audience.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and in the process, rather than legitimizing their view, he caused it to be subjected to further criticisms based on errors others perceived in his presentation of Yogacara, and just maybe too, because of his rather self-congratulatory style of writing.

That said, the version of gzhan stong followed today in Kagyu more resembles the Sakya scholar Sakya Chogden than Dolbupa. Gzhan stong itself also has a number of variations, as any mature tradition is likely to have.

But I am pretty sure also that Kalacakra is off topic in the Dzogchen forum...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Saraswati Terma Masters All Gone?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Saraswati is precious deity for wisdom and artistic creativity.

Grigoris said:
Does she have a wrathful aspect?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the wrathful form of Saraswati is Magzor Gyalmo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is  also Dzogchen.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.

heart said:
I never heard him say that, but I have no reason to don't believe you. Anyway the  "man ngag sde", in particular the "yang sang lana mepé kor" (the nyingtik), have a lot of deity practices that connected to those teachings. I am not really trying to prove something here, but it is just kind of obvious.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as a support for practitioners, one can use any deity, not just "nyingma" deities. But deity yoga is not the main path for man ngag sde, unlike sems sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.

Miroku said:
Why is that so that it has to be paired with creation and completion stage?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot attain rainbow body with sems sde alone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.

heart said:
If you say so, but I don't see how that matters actually. Sems sde is  also Dzogchen.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, sems sde must be practiced in conjunction with regular creation and completion stage, that is the point I am making. Sems de, unlike man ngag sde, is not an independent system of practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2018 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Matt J said:
I wasn't able to find the analysis in prior posts. Is there a link?

Are you all suggesting that the Dzogchen taught by Kagyu masters (i.e Thrangu, Mingyur, Tsoknyi, Dzogchen Ponlop etc. Rinpoches) is compromised somehow by a Shentong stance? The heart of Dzogchen as far as I understand is not a conceptual view.

Malcolm wrote:
gzhan stong is an analytical approach. Dzogchen is a vajrayāna system; the former is coarse, the latter is subtle. The latter does not depend on any analytical system at all; it depends on the introduction by a qualified master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2018 at 1:35 PM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
I have really come around to the Shentong presentation via the Kagyu presentation.
If you’re really interested, Brunnhölzl’s “When Clouds Part” is an excellent read on the subject. He has a whole section with summaries of how various Karma Kagyu masters have interpreted Shentong over the centuries. It is scholarly, long, and expensive, but well worth it if you’re interested.

*****

BTW the “Rangtong Ma-yin-gag” is the view that I’m leaning towards now. It has self-emptiness but with the universal positive qualities of Buddha Nature also—if I understand it correctly. There’s no separate Reality, which is the offensive Hindu heresy. It is mentioned in Situ R’s “Creation and Completion”.

To me the positive intrinsic qualities of Buddha Nature are what is important. Saying it is separate and Real is just adding emphasis.


Malcolm wrote:
If I had a thesis
I would be at fault,
Since I alone have no thesis,
I alone am free from fault.
— Nagarjuna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2018 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: rtsal, shared samsaric vision, “other” sentient beings
Content:
jnanasutra said:
Hi all!

So, if all appearances are rtsal manifestations of the basis of each individual, then is it the case that the rtsal manifestations are shared “vision” among samsaric sentient beings?

Also, if all appearances are the energy of the basis of each individual, then how are appearances shared by sentient beings and how are sentient beings (with their individual consciousnesses) apparent to other sentient beings?  Wouldn’t the appearance of other sentient beings only be the rtsal manifestations of one’s own basis?

Thanks!

Dorje Shedrub said:
I had the understanding that there is one basis not many, and that sentient brings each perceive the play of rtsal through their own obscurations.

DS

Malcolm wrote:
This is a mistake


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2018 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Content:
Simon E. said:
I am reluctant to give this thread with it's loaded agenda any more oxygen, but it may be worth pointing out vis-a-vis Knotty Veneer's good post that the majority of CTR's American circle would probably have no first hand knowledge of Akong Rinpoche at all. Most of them never visited Samye-Ling and Akong R. did not visit CTR's centres in the US.
So any view of Akong R. would come from CTR's beleaguered and defensive students. most of whom never met him.... and Mrs. Mukpo.

I will leave those interested to do the background research in that particular area.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you can always count on Dzogchen how to stand up for the little guy, widows, stray pets, and gurus with questinable ethical compasseses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2018 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Matt J said:
I struggle to see any difference between shentong and a Madhyamaka-Yogacara synthesis. If I recall correctly, Brunnholzl makes the argument that what is called shentong is simply that.

krodha said:
In any case, gzhan stong as a view in itself is at odds with Dzogchen... however describing Dzogchen as a Madhyamaka-Yogācāra synthesis is perfectly acceptable.

Malcolm wrote:
Well. The actual difference is that the Yogācāra Madhyamakas do not use the three own natures doctrine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 20th, 2018 at 1:27 PM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:


krodha said:
Mine or smcj’s?

Malcolm wrote:
smcj's...his claim that Dudjom R subordinates Dzogchen to sutrayāna madhyamaka of any kind.

smcj said:
I do not claim that he “subordinates” Dzogchen at all.
I claim he uses Great Madhyamaka/Shentong  to declare the superiority of Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no need to do this. This is like saying a lion’s roar needs to be amplified by a dog’s bark.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 20th, 2018 at 9:54 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
Is the “third turning” gzhan stong or just Yogācāra? Seems only Yogācāra is being referenced in the excerpt despite the assertion that his use of “third turning” is supposed to be a reference to gzhan song
3rd Turning can be interpreted as Mind Only or Empty of Other.

Malcolm wrote:
It can also be understood as restatement of the second turning, i.e., I said this was definitive, and yes, it is definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 20th, 2018 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nine of these passages support your claim.

krodha said:
Mine or smcj’s?

Malcolm wrote:
smcj's...his claim that Dudjom R subordinates Dzogchen to sutrayāna madhyamaka of any kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nine of these passages support your claim.

smcj said:
Page 300 of "The Big Red Book" in the chapter titled "Superiority of Atiyoga". Remember, he is not discussing sutra here. He is discussing Dzogchen and why it is superior to the lower 8 yanas.

Also worthy of note is the fact that he says that Nagarjuna/2nd Turning and Asanga/3rd Turning are both contained in Dzogchen. That is to be expected and does not negate my point. All Shentong view includes Nagarjuna. Elsewhere he explains that his interpretation of the 3rd Turning is "Great Madhyamaka" (a.k.a Shentong). Interestingly he includes the Dharmadhaturstava ("In Praise of Dharmadhatu") as one of Nagarjuna's. It certainly is not like Nagarjuna's other writings.

Now concerning this natural expression of the Great Perfection: The Sugata, during the intermediate promulgation of the transmitted precepts*, did not reveal the structure of the fundamental reality, though he did extensively teach the inconceivable, abiding nature without referring to symbols of elaborate conception. And, during the final promulgation**, though he did reveal the structure of the fundamental reality, he did not teach the characteristic path through which it is actualized. Therefore, the conclusive intention of the Two Promulgators*** actually abides without contradiction in the nature of the Great Perfection. This intention comprises the unaltered intention of the Collection of Madhyamaka Reasoning,, which consists of the commentaries on the intermediate promulgation by the sublime and supreme Nagarjuna; and his [ Collection of Eulogies ] including the Eulogy to the Expanse of Reality ****, and the commentaries by the regent Maitreya, the sublime and supreme Asanga, and his brother [Vasabandhu] and so forth, which together form the intention of the final [promulgation]. If one were to ask why this is the case, it is because these masters did not claim anything other than the profound abiding nature of natural reality, and because the Great Perfection itself is none other than that.
(bolding/underlining mine)

So he says, "... during the intermediate promulgation of the transmitted precepts, did not reveal the structure of the fundamental reality ".

But he then say of Asanga/Vasabandhu, "....because these masters did not claim anything other than the profound abiding nature of natural reality...,"

So he accepts the 3rd Turning as being "profound abiding nature of natural reality, and because the Great Perfection itself is none other than that.

So Dudjom R. had no problem utilizing the 3 Turning paradigm to explain and define how Dzogchen is superior to the other yanas. Since he saw it as appropriate, so do I.


*****

*a.k.a. The 2nd Turning of the Wheel of Dharma
**a.k.a. The 3rd Turning of the Wheel of Dharma
*** Nagarjuna and Asanga
****Available in English as "In Praise of Dharmadhatu"

******

All this is in regards to Dudjom R's interpretation of Dzogchen. Evidently he is an outlier in this among Nyingmapas. However Kongtrul also has a Shentong view of Dzogchen, and he is not an outlier among Karma Kagyupas. So at least one major school supports that idea within the context of Dzogchen specifically.

krodha said:
Is the “third turning” gzhan stong or just Yogācāra? Seems only Yogācāra is being referenced in the excerpt despite the assertion that his use of “third turning” is supposed to be a reference to gzhan stong.

In any case, gzhan stong as a view in itself is at odds with Dzogchen... however describing Dzogchen as a Madhyamaka-Yogācāra synthesis is perfectly acceptable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:23 PM
Title: Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Content:





dzogchungpa said:
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.


PeterC said:
The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity.  Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.



dzogchungpa said:
I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.

Malcolm wrote:
She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or another


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 9:30 AM
Title: Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Content:
smcj said:
You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?

Malcolm wrote:
As well as pre 1959 elemtary schools in the USA...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:



haha said:
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.

Malcolm wrote:
If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.

haha said:
If it is the case, then thogal is like purification. Am I correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this why in general it held one cannot attain rainbow from trekco alone


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:


haha said:
Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement: "The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?

Malcolm wrote:
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.

haha said:
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.

Malcolm wrote:
If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
Dzogchen masters do not privilege sūtra views over Vajrayāna views -- this is a point you seem to have never understood.
In his "Big Red Book" Dudjom R. explains that Dzogchen is superior specifically because it has the Great Madhyamaka/Shentong view. We have had that discussion before.

I have quoted it before. You know it. I do not accept your dismissal that I do not understand it.

Malcolm wrote:
Chapter and verse?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Content:
Miroku said:
I honestly finda that hard to believe. This is bit too much. But still shows how f-ing messy the whole situation is. Kinda reminded me of a passage where Dianna says Akong R. bullied her and CTR when they still were in Samye-ling. But still really? This is a horrible mess.

Stewart said:
I knew Akong Rinpoche for 20 years... believe me, he waa no bully. He did however, put up with a lot of shit amd slander from Shambhala, despite the fact he personally, and quietly, financially supported the Trungpa Tulku and Surmang monastery for years, Shambhala gave them nothing, eventually they realised that having the heritage of Surmang could be a good thing and suddenly started showing an interest.

Malcolm wrote:
And guess what, even Trungpa's claim he was the supreme abbot of Surmang turns out to be complete bullshit...that would be this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurmang_Gharwang_Rinpoche

Trungpa never taught the Zurmang tradition in Vajradhātu — he taught Karma Kagyu lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
Dudjom R. have a Shentong/Great Madhyamaka view.

Malcolm wrote:
When it comes to sūtra, yes. Not when it comes to Dzogchen. Jigme Lingpa follows Tsongkhapa when it comes to sūtra, but not when it comes to Dzogchen. Dzogchen masters do not privilege sūtra views over Vajrayāna views -- this is a point you seem to have never understood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
smcj said:
Actually, the assertion that there is no basis is precisely the meaning of Dzogchen, Mahāmudra, and Prajñāpāramitā.
With Prajnaparamita yes. With Mahamudra and Dzogchen it depends on who you talk to.

In "Myriad Worlds" Kongtrul writes: What is the fundamental nature of the original primordial ground of being, before buddhas appear by realizing it and before sentient beings appear by not realizing it? To answer this the tradition of Great Perfection states that the claims concerning the ground based on the perspectives of persons who adhere to philosophical tenets are mistaken.
Make no mistake, this book is about Kongtrul's cosmology. He starts with Abhidharma, then the Kalachakra cosmology, then the above is the beginning of his Dzogchen cosmology.

Malcolm wrote:
Kongtrul's review of Dzogchen "cosmology" is rather incomplete in the Encyclopedia (he gives a more detailed and complete overview in other places). Also the term "ground of being" has no correlate in Tibetan. It is an erroneous translation of the simple term "gzhi," that is, basis.

Also, the nature of the original basis is ka dag, original purity, i.e., emptiness free from extremes. There are severn presentations of the basis in Dzogchen, the only non-erroneous one is that the basis is originally pure. Original purity is a special term for emptiness which has never been contaminated by ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Malcolm,

Usually we speak of the Sutrayana paths as as the causal vehicles, and the mantrayana paths as the resultant vehicles; but does Dzogchen consider Anuyoga and Mahayoga "resultant"?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
LoveFromColorado said:
p
Malcolm wrote:
There is no primordial state.

LoveFromColorado said:
Hi Malcolm, unless you are referring to emptiness, then I don't understand what you mean. Throughout The Supreme Source by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu the Base is continually referred to as "the primordial state" (for example, on page 85). Would you mind clarifying?

Malcolm wrote:
"Primordial state" is how ChNN translates the term "gzhi." "Gzhi" simply refer to something we have not realized. If there is some real primordial state, then how does it exist, in whom does it exist, and in what way does it exist, without falling into the four extremes. If it does not exist by way of any of the four extremes, for what reason then it is a fault to say there is no basis? Actually, the assertion that there is no basis is precisely the meaning of Dzogchen, Mahāmudra, and Prajñāpāramitā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:



haha said:
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Love amdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.

haha said:
Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement: "The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?

Malcolm wrote:
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2018 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I decided to look through the comment thread on Hays' cat story FB post, and there are many interesting comments but https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1866927776941356&id=100008724543238&comment_id=1867199120247555&reply_comment_id=1867280453572755 especially caught my eye:
Then Sakyong Mipham rinpoche (smr or the Sawang as he was known then) was kidnapped by Akong Tulku, and he was tortured- locked in a closet & he showed me the scars on his cheek from being whipped with a bamboo whip. I am not sure why CTR & Dianna didn’t go get him immediately. But he was wounded too. Tagi and Gesar both experienced abuse too-now Gesar is an abuser as well. This is the cycle of violence, and I am a victim of it

I don't really know what to make of it but I thought it was worth pointing out. Does anyone know how old SMR would have been at that time?

Malcolm wrote:
6 -8 or so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 2:18 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.

haha said:
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.

@ passel
If you have heard the Gelug masters presentation, they can very precisely remark the experience of Dzogchen and Tantra in particular stage.
If you have read "The Supreme Source(The Kunjed Gyalpo)", you can figure out the subtle level of grasping in other lower vehicles.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 12:57 PM
Title: Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no primordial state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:


Rick said:
What's the *realistic* alternative? Vote for Nader and boot Gore out of the White House?

Johnny Dangerous said:
I actually did heh, and I feel justified in doing so.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, that worked out real well for America.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body.  Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.

Crazywisdom said:
I believe Khenpo Namdrol

Malcolm wrote:
The notion comes from a line in the root text. The Hevajra tantra says, "Buddhist tīrthikas who do not know Hevajra will never attain buddhahood."

As I said, Vajrayāna hyperbole. For example, Khenpo Acho, student of Dudjom Rinpoche, attained rainbow body in the late nineties through the practice of Vajrakilāya. His other main practice was Naro Khachoma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.

Crazywisdom said:
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body.  Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2018 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation

Malcolm wrote:
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.

Crazywisdom said:
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
But so is Chetsun N

Malcolm wrote:
Huh?

Crazywisdom said:
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation

Malcolm wrote:
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
passel said:
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.

Crazywisdom said:
But so is Chetsun N

Malcolm wrote:
Huh?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:29 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
passel said:
hm.  Is that a straight Lamdre statement, or is it a way of harmonizing Lamdre and Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
In Lamdre, the basis, path, and result are identical. But the basis of purification is samsara. That is not true of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.

passel said:
Fantastic, thank you.  I'm afraid I've never met a Sakyapa in the flesh, so my knowledge of the Lamdre system is less than meager, thanks for the response.  I was really thinking of Kagyu/Nyingma sythesis, just since that's all I've really ever had any depth of exposure to (and some straight Nyingma, straight Kagyu, though neither has really clicked).  Interesting, though, in that I made some quasi-perrenialist statements above without even considering a Lamdre view.  The impression I get is that Kagyu Mahamudra and Sakya Lamdre could be the hardest view/practice systems to reconcile. Jampa Thaye does it, I guess, Karma Thinley.  Ka-Nying and Nyinga/Sakya syncretism though seem to be more common. But 5 aggregates as the basis does make Lamdre hard to reconcile w Dz as well, at least to uninstructed worldlings like yours truly.

(Context: I had in mind a statement on a deleted? thread that MM and Dz have same basis, same fruit, different paths- which I gather does not jibe w the view of Lamdre)  Wonder if Lamdre-Dz practitioners would conceive of the two as parallel practice milieu that should be engaged, simultaneously or in sequence, or whether those practitioners find a way to fit one set of instruction/practices within the other.  I guess those are not mutually exclusive responses- you could subsume one system within the other in sequence. Simultaneously would be hard.

Re-reading your quote above though makes me think that a practitioner of some capacity could practice Lamdre from a Dz point of view, but not vice versa.  Unless different bases can have the same fruit, though I don't recall coming across that idea before..

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is the same, the basis of purification is different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
passel said:
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Chakrasamvara Root Tantra
Content:
haha said:
Yes, you can read. Even before receiving, you can read it for academic purpose but you can’t practice it.

Norwegian said:
This is wrong.

Nowhere in Buddhadharma is it explained that you can read for "academic purposes". The thing is, academics don't give a damn about what Buddhadharma says, because they use the excuse that they are academics, therefore they read, and do whatever they feel like in this context.

But if you've not received a relevant empowerment and transmission, it's a different story. Then you should wait until you do get the relevant empowerment and transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not saying that the OP has permission necessarily, it is merely recognition of that fact that yes one can read it if one wants.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Caveat emptor.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.

Crazywisdom said:
I hear what you’re saying, but it seems what matters is empowerment come from someone with instructions from the lineage.

“Homage to Vajrakumāra”

“Please bestow...

“Firstly,... in general, power falls into four categories: the power that is attained even without empowerment is the best, comprising that power that is gained by the mind as a result of correctly realizing the view. Power is not attained, even without the ritual empowerment, when the guru as no lineal instructions and the disciple has no vows. Power attained through empowerment is gained by a disciple who has accepted vows from a guru who possesses lineal instructions. And one who has not received the empowerments, although the empowerments have been bestowed upon him, and has gained nothing, even though it has all been given, is like someone whose mind is completely black.”

-Bolt of Lightning from the Blue, p. 303

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as well as having done the retreats, etc. Nevertheless, giving samaya to students requires having an iron belly for dealing with broken samaya, and a guru who has no realization will just be ruined if they are not careful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you...

Malcolm wrote:
The thing is, Nathan, is that there is flaw in the way the narrative of guru devotion is being communicated, and that leads to serious abuse of students by putative teachers of Buddhadharma, and mistaken defenses of these teacher's actions. This has nothing to do with Mahāmudra, etc.

Crazywisdom said:
In that case, the tantras make things pretty clear: teacher w lineage gives ritual; if actual consort is not possible, visualize; go accumulate 10 mil mantras. Perhaps if there’s a particularly advanced mantrin who’s nut won’t crack, some secret extreme measures have to go on w the client’s consent.

Malcolm wrote:
The point of abuse comes when unrealized gurus lacking experience and realization take advantage of the "unconventional" behavior clause, and rather than acting with spontaneous conduct, act out of rampant defilements aggravated by their position over vulnerable students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Unknown said:
We have to be clear about what we’re going to do at the very beginning so that there will be no problems or confusion later.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with this statement by Lama Zopa is that there is no certifying authority for gurus, and it is extremely hard for people, when they are beginners, to actually be able to tell who is a valid guru and who is a charlatan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:


haha said:
Be careful at the beginning , because once the relationship has been established nothing can be changed unless the guru gives you permission to no longer regard  him as your guru. Once the relationship has been formed there is no heavier karma than giving up the guru, renouncing the guru as an object of devotion. It is a much heavier negative karma than committing the five uninterrupted negative actions. Among all heavy karmas, this is the heaviest.

Malcolm wrote:
This is only valid in the case of a guru who has not betrayed the fundamental terms of the relationship, putting the benefit of students above their own. It does not apply at all to someone from whom one has never received any empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:



haha said:
But there are some statements in mahanana sutra which may be a factor to people could act in such manner. The Vimalakirti Sutra:
Then the Licchavi Vimalakirti said to the patriarch Mahakasyapa, "Reverend Mahakasyapa, the Maras who play the devil in the innumerable universes of the ten directions are all bodhisattvas dwelling in the inconceivable liberation, who are playing the devil in order to develop living beings through their skill in liberative technique. Reverend Mahakasyapa, all the miserable beggars who come to the bodhisattvas of the innumerable universes of the ten directions to ask for a hand, a foot, an ear, a nose, some blood, muscles, bones, marrow, an eye, a torso, a head, a limb, a member, a throne, a kingdom, a country, a wife, a son, a daughter, a slave, a slave-girl, a horse, an elephant, a chariot, a cart, gold, silver, jewels, pearls, conches, crystal, coral, beryl, treasures, food, drink, elixirs, and clothes - these demanding beggars are usually bodhisattvas living in the inconceivable liberation who, through their skill in liberative technique, wish to test and thus demonstrate the firmness of the high resolve of the bodhisattvas. Why? Reverend Mahakasyapa, the bodhisattvas demonstrate that firmness by means of terrible austerities. Ordinary persons have no power to be thus demanding of bodhisattvas, unless they are granted the opportunity. They are not capable of killing and depriving in that manner without being freely given the chance.

Malcolm wrote:
These bodhisattvas are bodhisattvas on the stages, not ordinary people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2018 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The topic is loaded question. Like, why do you abuse your wife? There is room for a guru to make you feel bad, confuse you, impeach you...

Malcolm wrote:
The thing is, Nathan, is that there is flaw in the way the narrative of guru devotion is being communicated, and that leads to serious abuse of students by putative teachers of Buddhadharma, and mistaken defenses of these teacher's actions. This has nothing to do with Mahāmudra, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 12:33 PM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
anjali said:
Ok. Lots of posts removed. Some of them may find there way into a split off topic (or not). I don't have the time to sift through them this evening so see if there is anything worth salvaging. For now, carry on with the discussion of what's the point of abusive gurus?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really worth saving....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Kyabgon Gongma Trichen Rinpoche is the Mind Emanation of Guru Rinpoche
Content:
fckw said:
In Tibet they don't seem to have a problem to have several Padmasambhavas around.

yan kong said:
Why would they? It's a perfectly orthodox opinion to hold.

fckw said:
You know, for any odd reason in Tibet tulkus are or were born in rich and influential families with much higher probability than in poor and not so influential ones. Now, perhaps tulkus generally just seem to have an unexplained preference to be born in rich and influential families? Or it's their fortunate karma?

Or then, perhaps the explanation is by far less romantic.

Hence: My point of having several Padmasambhavas around was not so much about the number of them, but rather about the point that there seems to be a certain level of, well, let's call it "arbitrariness" to it.

Malcolm wrote:
Tulkus are recognized in all kinds of families.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Kyabgon Gongma Trichen Rinpoche is the Mind Emanation of Guru Rinpoche
Content:
Motova said:
Apparently so is Sogyal Lakar.

Malcolm wrote:
Recognized by his mother, but not really enthroned, or recognized by anyone else as such.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
heart said:
I also want to say that I really disagree with the title of this thread, I would never post in such a thread.

Virgo said:
Magnus, you just did.

Kevin...

Malcolm wrote:
He is referring to the fact that while I was writing my post, the other thread was locked.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Do what to remedy?

Malcolm wrote:
Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.

Crazywisdom said:
Caveat emptor.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:


heart said:
I think we have to accept that these stories are a part of our Vajrayana heritage, all lineages included, and that they do have point.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is generally lost on people who might come to Vajrayāna teachings, but lose faith in the Vajrayāna before they have even begun. Vajrayāna, after all, is part of Mahāyāna, not an elite club for boys.


heart said:
Is it good, is it bad, it is very difficult to say. Somehow these stories don't make people loose faith in the Dharma because in that case neither you nor me would still be feeling that Dharma is the most important thing in our life as we in fact do, both of us, after all these years.

Malcolm wrote:
I do not think the Dharma is important because there are a few stories of outrageous behavior by Indian or Tibetan masters. I personally think western students focus on these examples too much because they are titillating and exotic.


heart said:
My example was just meant to show the strange lack of the most important point in Vajrayana, the direct introduction, seems to be missing in these discussion and I find that very odd. Because that is really the only reason to accept unusual behaviour from a master. If it isn't about recognising the natural state, then what is it about?

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that these stories are exceeding rare, and perhaps not the best examples for beginning students of Tibetan Buddhism. I think this is caused by the anachronistic nostalgia some people have for the good old days of Trungpa. But I think people are beginning to find out that is was not all good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
May the fat wallet lamas be the real deal.

Malcolm wrote:
Sadly, this is generally not the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.

Crazywisdom said:
Do what to remedy?

Malcolm wrote:
Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Apparently, you like the heat. Vajrakilaya tantras  have some pointed things to say about this.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that if you do not like the conversation, you are not required to participate.

The Tibetan tradition is not perfect, it has problems, mostly having to do with abuse of power, money, sexism, and position, and exploiting the teachings to support worldly positions of power, to gain money, exploit women, and to preserve position. The ancient mahasiddhas had no interests in preserving power structures of Indian kings, Buddhist and otherwise, nor the worldly power of the monastic institutions, nor with maintaining patriarchal power over women. Instead, they abandoned all of this. It is for this reason I find it ironic that antinomian stories are being used to uphold the very institutions for which these ancient mahasiddhas had no use. Don't you find this odd?

Crazywisdom said:
Yes. It is odd. Vajrayana is odd.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a lot of fake Vajrayāna out there and lot of gurus using Vajrayāna to fatten their wallets.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
heart said:
I am a little surprised at this discussion and several others recently. Vajrayana (including Dzogchen) is not really about finding a nice teacher that can teach you nice things, right? It is about recognising the natural state, decide on that and gain full realisation in the natural self liberation and that will leave nothing of our current like and dislikes, hopes and fears and so on. It will utterly destroy the unrealised people that we are.

Malcolm wrote:
The notion that there is a person to destroy is pernicious and false. This is annihilationism.

heart said:
Malcolm, I am not saying there is a "person to destroy" I am saying that the natural state is not our ordinary state of confusion. The distinction between mind and rigpa.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Do you think you have to destroy the mind to be in a state of knowledge of one's natural state? I hope not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
I agree w HHST

Malcolm wrote:
Glad we cleared that up.

Crazywisdom said:
I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.

Malcolm wrote:
Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.

Crazywisdom said:
I agree w HHST

Malcolm wrote:
Glad we cleared that up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.

Malcolm wrote:
Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...

Crazywisdom said:
Apparently, you like the heat. Vajrakilaya tantras  have some pointed things to say about this.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that if you do not like the conversation, you are not required to participate.

The Tibetan tradition is not perfect, it has problems, mostly having to do with abuse of power, money, sexism, and position, and exploiting the teachings to support worldly positions of power, to gain money, exploit women, and to preserve position. The ancient mahasiddhas had no interests in preserving power structures of Indian kings, Buddhist and otherwise, nor the worldly power of the monastic institutions, nor with maintaining patriarchal power over women. Instead, they abandoned all of this. It is for this reason I find it ironic that antinomian stories are being used to uphold the very institutions for which these ancient mahasiddhas had no use. Don't you find this odd?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Karma, "soulmates" etc
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
So, I'm curious what anyone's take, including the actual Buddhist official outlook is on "soul mates", chance encounters, predestined relationships and all that.  My understanding is that our karma determines just about everything, so when we meet people it's due to our karma?  But what exactly does that mean?

Some new agey ideas are that people somehow agree before they are born they will meet again in this life in order to either complete something important or the proverbial "learn an important life/spiritual lesson."

And how does Tibetan astrology look at these things.  I imagine considering how important it is, they must have a notion about this stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, all relationships we have with each other are a result of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:


Quay said:
And when they do come up, as in another thread, and when they're about certain contemporary teachers, Chatral Rinpoche in this case,

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, I have a friend who is a close student of the late Chatral Rinpoche, who spent, over the years, many months at a time in close proximity to him. According to my friend, Chatral Rinpoche was never anything but unfailingly kind to students, and when westerners came to see him for teachings, he would kindly explain that unless they learned Tibetan, there was no point in him giving them teachings. This is not to say that there are no tales of Chatral Rinpoche expressing anger, for of course there are those stories as well. But my friends experience of him was one of nothing but complete kindness and care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
There is way too much vajra guru slamming going on here. You all should know you’re walking on thin ice.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajra gurus do not have the immunity of papal infallibility. If you do not like the heat...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Kagyu bashing garbage. Pls shut up.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Nathan, I am pointing out that 1) Tsang Nyon Herukas 15th century bio of Milarepa is just a religious novel, with little basis in fact. 2) That this narrative of Tilo/Naro being held up as the model of guru/disciple relationship is not healthy nor sound, since Naropa was already a highly advanced Vajrayāna practitioner. 3) The fact that Naropa did not achieve buddhahood in his lifetime because he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debate is preserved in the early Sakya tradition, 12th century, so only a century after Naropa passed. Tsang Nyon's bio of Naropa is also unreliable as history. 4) Naropa's tradition of Vajrayogini is one of the most important Sakya teachings, so no disrespect to either master is intended. 5) I will never shut up. You should have figured that out by now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: What's the point of abusive gurus?
Content:
heart said:
I am a little surprised at this discussion and several others recently. Vajrayana (including Dzogchen) is not really about finding a nice teacher that can teach you nice things, right? It is about recognising the natural state, decide on that and gain full realisation in the natural self liberation and that will leave nothing of our current like and dislikes, hopes and fears and so on. It will utterly destroy the unrealised people that we are.

Malcolm wrote:
The notion that there is a person to destroy is pernicious and false. This is annihilationism.

heart said:
I am pretty sure none of you think that Naropa let Tilopa abuse him to the point of death without Naropa getting some realisation, some awakening in the process. That would be very stupid on his part and I think we all know that Naropa wasn't stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
1) Naropa was already an advanced Vajrayāna practitioner when he sought out Tilopa.

2) Naropa did not realize buddhahood, because in the end, he disobeyed Tilopa over the issue of debating Hindus.

3) Tilopa did not actually personally abuse Naropa. He put Naropa in situations where Naropa acted out his egotism and got into trouble as a result.

4) These stories are comparatively rare. In fact, in the entire history of the Sakya tradition, filled with masters who attained the highest realizations, none of these stories exist. I cannot think of any similar stories in the Gelug, Jonang, or Nyingma traditions either. For some reason, however, the Kagyu tradition's take on guru devotion, using Tilopa/Naropa, Marpa/Mila narratives, is frankly unhealthy and leads students the wrong way. I also cannot think of any stories like this in the Kagyu tradition following Milarepa, in fact. So why do Tibetans and westerners constantly invoke the Tilopa/Naropa refrain? It makes no sense and merely promotes a sense that if you guru does not beat you, you are not making progress. Beyond this, there is the fact that Milarepa story is a complete fiction, as the research of Peter Alan Roberts clearly shows based on the earliest bios of Milarepa.

For example, let us take the case of Virupa. Virupa was a monk, Shri Dharmapāla, abbot of Nalanda, who practiced Vajrayogini for twenty years. He thought he was not getting anywhere. So one night he decided to quit and tossed his māla in the toilet. He had a dream of Nairatma, and she told him that he had erred, and that he needed to retrieve his māla from the latrine and wash it. You see, he had received empowerments of Cakrasamvara, but his master had died before Dharmapāla could receive intimate instructions related to experiences on the path. So he misinterpreted his experiences of heat on the path of application, and further, he was practicing the wrong yidam. So the next day, he encountered nirmanakāya Nairatma and her band of yoginīs, received the Hevajra empowerment and instructions, and achieved one bodhisattva bhumi after another for six consecutive nights, realizing the sixth bhumi. Now, Virupa was definitely a crazy yogi, everywhere he went he challenged people's expectations, but he did it with kindness, not anger— though when he reversed the Ganges, he might have flooded a hut or two, and when he stopped the sun in the sky, he might have damaged some crops. In his dealings with Dombhi Heruka and Kanha, it is recorded he showed them nothing but kindness. It is well known that among the 84 mahāsiddhas, when it came to manifesting magical powers, Virupa was the greatest. Finally, people became a little too freaked out by Virupa's displays of power, so Avalokiteshvara intervened and asked Virupa to stop. Of course Virupa assented, having converted thousands of Hindus to Buddhadharma and the practice of Avalokiteshvara in particular, and when he passed, it is recorded that he dissolved his physical body into a statue of Avalokiteshvara in South India. The point of all of this is that there is more than one model of guru/disciple relationships.

Another of the root downfalls is causing people to lose faith in the Dharma. You are going to have to explain to me exactly how it is that promulgation of these few narratives does Vajrayāna more good than harm, considering they are exceptions and not the rule.

And further, those of us who extol such stories as that of Tilo and Naro, think carefully, could you handle Tilopa as your guru? And if you answer honestly, you will admit there is no way you can handle this. And if you can't handle this, for what reason do you hold this up as an ideal model of a guru and student relationship?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 2:55 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
pemachophel said:
We're talking as if the branding of Jetsun Shuksep by Lama Pema Gyatsho was a great transgression and a crime against females. Having been Jetsun Shuksep's student in my last life and one of Her present Tulku's shabji for almost 20 years in this life, I don't see it that way. Just with Marpa and Milarepa, I feel quite confident that Jetsun Shuksep would've said Lama Pema Gyatsho's acts were skillful means for the purification of Her bad karma. Did She suffer terribly? Of course She did. Besides branding, She was kicked out of Her Teacher's community, beaten, and told to walk naked around the Barkor. But She was willing to undergo these trials for the sake of Enlightenment. If, within Vajrayana, these were considered wrong or shameful acts on the part of Her Guru, they would not have been included in Her namthar. Her namthar is a record of Her Liberation and everything in it is meant as a description of what led to that Liberation. Would I like to be branded on my forehead? No way... but then I don't have Jetsun Shuksep's bravery and perseverance on the path to Liberation.

We moderns (with our liberal, humanist, relativist views) need to understand that the Vajrayana is an inherently dangerous path where all safety nets have been discarded. There are no limits to what a real Guru might do to insure the Liberation of Their student. In Alexandra David-Neel's Magic & Mystery in Tibet, there's a story where she comes across a Lama whose student is practicing chod every night and is so scared that David-Neel cautions the Lama that the student is on the verge of dying. The Lama says that the student has only to realize the inherent nature of his own mind and all fear will evaporate. The Teacher did not intervene in the student's nightly chod.

One of my own Teachers deliberately caused me immense mental and emotional pain. After years of suffering through this, She said that it was in order to insure that my mind stayed in the View every minute of every day. Harsh? Absolutely. But don't hang out with Wisdom Dakinis (a.k.a. Mamos) if you can't take the heat.

Chatral Rinpoche, one of this Teacher's Root Gurus, was also famous for doing outrageous things, making outrageous requests of students. There is a well-known story of Chatral Rinpoche shitting on a plate and asking a Western student who was requesting teachings on one taste to eat that shit. The student decided he didn't need those teachings after all. Another time, a Tibetan disciple of Chatral Rinpoche was near death. This disciple (or former disciple) had broken samaya which had never been confessed and repaired. Seeing the writing on the wall, he was now afraid he was going to Narme Hell. He invited Chatral Rinpoche out to a fashionable restaurant and bought Him dinner. He said how sorry he was and asked if Chatral Rinpoche would pardon him. Chatral Rinpoche told the man to offer absolutely every single one of his possessions to Him. If I remember correctly, the man ran out of the restaurant. I was told this story by Jetsun Shuksep's Tulku as an example of how serious Vajryana samaya is as well as how, as a Vajrayana Guru, Chatral Rinpoche "played for keeps." Today, everyone likes to say they were a student of Chatral Rinpoche. But the truth is that, for years, most people stayed away from Chatral Rinpoche out of fear.

Similar with Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche Whose bio was recently posted on this site in another thread. I personally know a well-known Western Dharma practitioner who asked Kunzang Dorje to become His student. Kunzang Dorje took out a piece of copper wire, straightened it out a bit, and told this Westerner to insert it up his penis. The Westerner decided he was needed elsewhere.

Then there's Kusum Lingpa Who gleefully shoplifted in drag while His students shuddered in a combination of embarassment and fear of being immanently arrested. And that's only one example of this Teacher's outrageous, iconoclastic behavior.

My point being, if you (we, me) are not willing to risk everything on the Vajrayana path, maybe you/we/me should not follow this path. The pervasive contemporary attempt to water down the Vajrayana to make it palatable to us moderns and profitable to its purveyors risks, as one of my Dharma brothers recently wrote, turning it into "Tibetan Presbyterianism." The 84 Mahasiddhas of India did not tell Their Gurus what They could and couldn't do in terms of Their teaching methods.

Many people gravitate to Gurus who are always nice, always kind, always "compassionate" in our everyday version of that word. We pick Gurus who we like and are easy to get along with, Who we are comfortable with. For some of us, this is all we can handle. But when you're with a highly Realized Teacher, it can be very, very scary. To Them, this world is a fiction, a dream, an illusion, and Their job is to wake us up out of that fiction as quickly and completely as possible. For this kind of Teacher, nothing is "off the table" in terms of skillful means. When confronted with this sort of Teacher, you may not be able to take the heat.

I totally understand the problem with sexual abuse that is causing so much anguish and upsetment in our Tibetan Buddhist world. One of my own Teachers was well-known for having sex with His female students. So I have some first-hand experience of this situation. But I would caution we Tantrikas to be very careful in jumping to pervasive modernist conclusions about all this. It is very, very difficult to tell who is a true Guru and who is not, and our tightly cherished notions of right and wrong don't apply in the world of the Swift Path. That's what makes Vajrayana so damn dangerous. This path is not for everyone. The fact that it's being marketed to everyone without the proper warning labels on the side of the package is part of the degenerations of the Kali Yuga.

I'm sure I'm going to catch flak for this post, but, in my opinion and experience, this whole situation is not as easy and straightforward as many seem to think. For anyone thinking about entering the Vajrayana, all I can say is caveat emptor.

mandog said:
Wow. Thank you for sharing this, I think there is a lot of benefit from people hearing these stories. Do you believe that "peaceful" gurus necessarily offer a sort of slower path than "wrathful" gurus as a rule?

Malcolm wrote:
These stories help no one. Why? None of the people advocating this behavior would put up with it themselves for a second.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 2:51 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
pemachophel said:
We're talking as if the branding of Jetsun Shuksep by Lama Pema Gyatsho was a great transgression and a crime against females. Having been Jetsun Shuksep's student in my last life and one of Her present Tulku's shabji for almost 20 years in this life, I don't see it that way. Just with Marpa and Milarepa, I feel quite confident that Jetsun Shuksep would've said Lama Pema Gyatsho's acts were skillful means for the purification of Her bad karma. Did She suffer terribly? Of course She did. Besides branding, She was kicked out of Her Teacher's community, beaten, and told to walk naked around the Barkor. But She was willing to undergo these trials for the sake of Enlightenment. If, within Vajrayana, these were considered wrong or shameful acts on the part of Her Guru, they would not have been included in Her namthar. Her namthar is a record of Her Liberation and everything in it is meant as a description of what led to that Liberation. Would I like to be branded on my forehead? No way... but then I don't have Jetsun Shuksep's bravery and perseverance on the path to Liberation.

We moderns (with our liberal, humanist, relativist views) need to understand that the Vajrayana is an inherently dangerous path where all safety nets have been discarded. There are no limits to what a real Guru might do to insure the Liberation of Their student. In Alexandra David-Neel's Magic & Mystery in Tibet, there's a story where she comes across a Lama whose student is practicing chod every night and is so scared that David-Neel cautions the Lama that the student is on the verge of dying. The Lama says that the student has only to realize the inherent nature of his own mind and all fear will evaporate. The Teacher did not intervene in the student's nightly chod.

One of my own Teachers deliberately caused me immense mental and emotional pain. After years of suffering through this, She said that it was in order to insure that my mind stayed in the View every minute of every day. Harsh? Absolutely. But don't hang out with Wisdom Dakinis (a.k.a. Mamos) if you can't take the heat.

Chatral Rinpoche, one of this Teacher's Root Gurus, was also famous for doing outrageous things, making outrageous requests of students. There is a well-known story of Chatral Rinpoche shitting on a plate and asking a Western student who was requesting teachings on one taste to eat that shit. The student decided he didn't need those teachings after all. Another time, a Tibetan disciple of Chatral Rinpoche was near death. This disciple (or former disciple) had broken samaya which had never been confessed and repaired. Seeing the writing on the wall, he was now afraid he was going to Narme Hell. He invited Chatral Rinpoche out to a fashionable restaurant and bought Him dinner. He said how sorry he was and asked if Chatral Rinpoche would pardon him. Chatral Rinpoche told the man to offer absolutely every single one of his possessions to Him. If I remember correctly, the man ran out of the restaurant. I was told this story by Jetsun Shuksep's Tulku as an example of how serious Vajryana samaya is as well as how, as a Vajrayana Guru, Chatral Rinpoche "played for keeps." Today, everyone likes to say they were a student of Chatral Rinpoche. But the truth is that, for years, most people stayed away from Chatral Rinpoche out of fear.

Similar with Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche Whose bio was recently posted on this site in another thread. I personally know a well-known Western Dharma practitioner who asked Kunzang Dorje to become His student. Kunzang Dorje took out a piece of copper wire, straightened it out a bit, and told this Westerner to insert it up his penis. The Westerner decided he was needed elsewhere.

Then there's Kusum Lingpa Who gleefully shoplifted in drag while His students shuddered in a combination of embarassment and fear of being immanently arrested. And that's only one example of this Teacher's outrageous, iconoclastic behavior.

My point being, if you (we, me) are not willing to risk everything on the Vajrayana path, maybe you/we/me should not follow this path. The pervasive contemporary attempt to water down the Vajrayana to make it palatable to us moderns and profitable to its purveyors risks, as one of my Dharma brothers recently wrote, turning it into "Tibetan Presbyterianism." The 84 Mahasiddhas of India did not tell Their Gurus what They could and couldn't do in terms of Their teaching methods.

Many people gravitate to Gurus who are always nice, always kind, always "compassionate" in our everyday version of that word. We pick Gurus who we like and are easy to get along with, Who we are comfortable with. For some of us, this is all we can handle. But when you're with a highly Realized Teacher, it can be very, very scary. To Them, this world is a fiction, a dream, an illusion, and Their job is to wake us up out of that fiction as quickly and completely as possible. For this kind of Teacher, nothing is "off the table" in terms of skillful means. When confronted with this sort of Teacher, you may not be able to take the heat.

I totally understand the problem with sexual abuse that is causing so much anguish and upsetment in our Tibetan Buddhist world. One of my own Teachers was well-known for having sex with His female students. So I have some first-hand experience of this situation. But I would caution we Tantrikas to be very careful in jumping to pervasive modernist conclusions about all this. It is very, very difficult to tell who is a true Guru and who is not, and our tightly cherished notions of right and wrong don't apply in the world of the Swift Path. That's what makes Vajrayana so damn dangerous. This path is not for everyone. The fact that it's being marketed to everyone without the proper warning labels on the side of the package is part of the degenerations of the Kali Yuga.

I'm sure I'm going to catch flak for this post, but, in my opinion and experience, this whole situation is not as easy and straightforward as many seem to think. For anyone thinking about entering the Vajrayana, all I can say is caveat emptor.


Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you need help if you think branding people is acceptable on any  level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 2:46 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It was. If you don’t see that, you are not fit to call yourself a lama, much less teach Dharma to anyone.

pemachophel said:
We're talking as if the branding of Jetsun Shuksep by Lama Pema Gyatsho was a great transgression and a crime against females. Having been Jetsun Shuksep's student in my last life and one of Her present Tulku's shabji for almost 20 years in this life, I don't see it that way. Just with Marpa and Milarepa, I feel quite confident that Jetsun Shuksep would've said Lama Pema Gyatsho's acts were skillful means for the purification of Her bad karma. Did She suffer terribly? Of course She did. Besides branding, She was kicked out of Her Teacher's community, beaten, and told to walk naked around the Barkor. But She was willing to undergo these trials for the sake of Enlightenment. If, within Vajrayana, these were considered wrong or shameful acts on the part of Her Guru, they would not have been included in Her namthar. Her namthar is a record of Her Liberation and everything in it is meant as a description of what led to that Liberation. Would I like to be branded on my forehead? No way... but then I don't have Jetsun Shuksep's bravery and perseverance on the path to Liberation.

We moderns (with our liberal, humanist, relativist views) need to understand that the Vajrayana is an inherently dangerous path where all safety nets have been discarded. There are no limits to what a real Guru might do to insure the Liberation of Their student. In Alexandra David-Neel's Magic & Mystery in Tibet, there's a story where she comes across a Lama whose student is practicing chod every night and is so scared that David-Neel cautions the Lama that the student is on the verge of dying. The Lama says that the student has only to realize the inherent nature of his own mind and all fear will evaporate. The Teacher did not intervene in the student's nightly chod.

One of my own Teachers deliberately caused me immense mental and emotional pain. After years of suffering through this, She said that it was in order to insure that my mind stayed in the View every minute of every day. Harsh? Absolutely. But don't hang out with Wisdom Dakinis (a.k.a. Mamos) if you can't take the heat.

Chatral Rinpoche, one of this Teacher's Root Gurus, was also famous for doing outrageous things, making outrageous requests of students. There is a well-known story of Chatral Rinpoche shitting on a plate and asking a Western student who was requesting teachings on one taste to eat that shit. The student decided he didn't need those teachings after all. Another time, a Tibetan disciple of Chatral Rinpoche was near death. This disciple (or former disciple) had broken samaya which had never been confessed and repaired. Seeing the writing on the wall, he was now afraid he was going to Narme Hell. He invited Chatral Rinpoche out to a fashionable restaurant and bought Him dinner. He said how sorry he was and asked if Chatral Rinpoche would pardon him. Chatral Rinpoche told the man to offer absolutely every single one of his possessions to Him. If I remember correctly, the man ran out of the restaurant. I was told this story by Jetsun Shuksep's Tulku as an example of how serious Vajryana samaya is as well as how, as a Vajrayana Guru, Chatral Rinpoche "played for keeps." Today, everyone likes to say they were a student of Chatral Rinpoche. But the truth is that, for years, most people stayed away from Chatral Rinpoche out of fear.

Similar with Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche Whose bio was recently posted on this site in another thread. I personally know a well-known Western Dharma practitioner who asked Kunzang Dorje to become His student. Kunzang Dorje took out a piece of copper wire, straightened it out a bit, and told this Westerner to insert it up his penis. The Westerner decided he was needed elsewhere.

Then there's Kusum Lingpa Who gleefully shoplifted in drag while His students shuddered in a combination of embarassment and fear of being immanently arrested. And that's only one example of this Teacher's outrageous, iconoclastic behavior.

My point being, if you (we, me) are not willing to risk everything on the Vajrayana path, maybe you/we/me should not follow this path. The pervasive contemporary attempt to water down the Vajrayana to make it palatable to us moderns and profitable to its purveyors risks, as one of my Dharma brothers recently wrote, turning it into "Tibetan Presbyterianism." The 84 Mahasiddhas of India did not tell Their Gurus what They could and couldn't do in terms of Their teaching methods.

Many people gravitate to Gurus who are always nice, always kind, always "compassionate" in our everyday version of that word. We pick Gurus who we like and are easy to get along with, Who we are comfortable with. For some of us, this is all we can handle. But when you're with a highly Realized Teacher, it can be very, very scary. To Them, this world is a fiction, a dream, an illusion, and Their job is to wake us up out of that fiction as quickly and completely as possible. For this kind of Teacher, nothing is "off the table" in terms of skillful means. When confronted with this sort of Teacher, you may not be able to take the heat.

I totally understand the problem with sexual abuse that is causing so much anguish and upsetment in our Tibetan Buddhist world. One of my own Teachers was well-known for having sex with His female students. So I have some first-hand experience of this situation. But I would caution we Tantrikas to be very careful in jumping to pervasive modernist conclusions about all this. It is very, very difficult to tell who is a true Guru and who is not, and our tightly cherished notions of right and wrong don't apply in the world of the Swift Path. That's what makes Vajrayana so damn dangerous. This path is not for everyone. The fact that it's being marketed to everyone without the proper warning labels on the side of the package is part of the degenerations of the Kali Yuga.

I'm sure I'm going to catch flak for this post, but, in my opinion and experience, this whole situation is not as easy and straightforward as many seem to think. For anyone thinking about entering the Vajrayana, all I can say is caveat emptor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 7:42 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?

ratna said:
Pema Gyatso.


dzogchungpa said:
Does the autobiography say whether he ever branded ever any of his male students?

Malcolm wrote:
Would this make his actions any less cruel and abusive to this woman? Or are you merely trying to show that cruel and abusive behavior was a norm for Tibetans and therefore, we should not be concerned about Osel Mukpo's sexual assaults on woman since he is Tibetan?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that makes his growing record of sexual assaults so much more palatable. Then of course, there are the invisible brands of bearing the scars of being victims of sexual assault and child abuse by powerful males in an organization that is more interested in protecting their reputation than the spiritual goals of their female aspirants.


dzogchungpa said:
Easy, big guy. Is the record actually growing? Winn mentioned three incidents in her report, and I haven't heard of any new ones although I am not following very closely.

Malcolm wrote:
Pay closer attention, the Chilean women also told her story and more women have contacted the Boulder lawyer with further allegations which are under review.

dzogchungpa said:
BTW, what was the name of the master who branded Shuksep Lochen Chönyi Zangmo?


Malcolm wrote:
That is a question for Sten, he read the autobiography in question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, at least SMR doesn't seem to have branded anyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that makes his growing record of sexual assaults so much more palatable. Then of course, there are the invisible brands of bearing the scars of being victims of sexual assault and child abuse by powerful males in an organization that is more interested in protecting their reputation than the spiritual goals of their female aspirants.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: How to End Samaya?
Content:
AlexanderS said:
What do you do then if you like me have become psychically and mentally unwell to practice?

Malcolm wrote:
You get a pass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:
Rick said:
Ah yes, this editorial has the final quote I was searching for, thanks for finding it for me:

"Any student of history knows that it is moments like this summit that set in motion chains of events that are difficult to stop. The democratic alliance that has been the bedrock of the American-led liberal world order is unraveling. At some point, and probably sooner than we expect, the global peace that that alliance and that order undergirded will unravel, too. Despite our human desire to hope for the best, things will not be okay. The world crisis is upon us. "

Is this alarmist ... or soberly realistic?

Malcolm wrote:
Realistic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2018 at 1:10 PM
Title: Re: How to End Samaya?
Content:
PeterC said:
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.

Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.

PeterC said:
Thanks Malcolm.  It states that there's no means of expiation, and both will take rebirth in vajra hell, not just the guru?

Malcolm wrote:
It states that disciples can always purify their samaya, but when a guru breaks samaya, it is irreparable. Thus, I take thus to mean that disciples always have the option of finding another guru. I also take this to mean that gurus who break their samaya have no remorse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2018 at 12:12 PM
Title: Re: How to End Samaya?
Content:
PeterC said:
I can't find the reference - if someone knows it please let me know - but there is an text talking about this that says that that if the guru breaches samaya then there's no way of mending it, both guru and disciple are going to vajra hell.

It is possible, however, to decide that the guru was unqualified and therefore samaya never existed in the first place. In some of the recent scandals that's a completely reasonable conclusion to reach. If that happens then - to use an analogy - it's an annulment rather than a divorce.

If "leaving" your guru means you no longer contact or seek teachings from them, that doesn't have to entail any breach of samaya, provided you maintain pure perception of them, and avoid negative speech and actions with respect to them.

Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa rangshar tantra makes this statement.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2018 at 7:52 AM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:
Rick said:
Frickin' homo sapiens! Enlightenment is wasted on 'em!

Let's widen the field a bit: What % of Trump supporters are striving to do the right thing for the entire world rather than just America? And what % care about doing what's right for the entire country rather than just their personal tribes?

Malcolm wrote:
0%


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2018 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
So, you are insinuating based on this story that it was CTR, as if there aren't any other alcoholic lama's in Asia (there are plenty.)

That's quite irresponsible to do.


dzogchungpa said:
Now, now, SW, let's not disturb Josef's mind with any inconvenient facts.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after all, it is much more important to preserve the status quo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2018 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



chimechodra said:
The pronouns here are very confusing, is this Chatral Rinpoche telling attendants to remove a photo of CTR/SMR? Or are we talking about the Australian lama? I'm assuming the former.

Josef said:
He's definitely telling them to get the photos out of his room.

Quay said:
it is probably worth noting that neither Chatral Rinpoche nor any of his heart sons/daughters endorsed this book, Compassionate Action. Indeed several have stated that Rinpoche left no written words.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he did, published under pseudonyms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2018 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Chilean woman’sstory:

http://andreamwinn.com/project_sunshine/Memorandum_II_on_Sexual_Misconduct.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2018 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hiltzik was a Miramax employee for nearly a decade.


dzogchungpa said:
Yes. So what?

Malcolm wrote:
He knew what HW was up to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2018 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
smcj said:
I read it, the law firm is based in Halifax, Olive Branch is not.
Shambhala is in Halifax. The sentence is badly written. In its letter to the Shambhala community, the council also announced that it has hired a law firm in Halifax, Nova Scotia, the group’s international headquarters, to do an independent investigation of the allegations against Sakyong Mipham, which were made most prominently in a report last week from Buddhist Project Sunshine.
Also, what is the connection with Weinstein?
None that I know of.


dzogchungpa said:
OK, I looked into it. Apparently the law firm is Wickwire Holm and the PR firm is Hiltzik Strategies. It should be noted that the connection between Hiltzik and Weinstein was before 2008.
See e.g.: https://thinkprogress.org/leadership-of-buddhist-organization-steps-down-amid-sexual-misconduct-scandal-d2e979aadc3b/
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hiltzik

Malcolm wrote:
Hiltzik was a Miramax employee for nearly a decade.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Disagreeing with Guru
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.

Grigoris said:
12 years.  Thank you.  I was not sure if I remembered correctly Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.

Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.


dzogchungpa said:
Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.

Additionally, an alcoholic" does not need to drink heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.



Malcolm wrote:
The there is the gene.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: Disagreeing with Guru
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru.

Grigoris said:
Would it be more suitable for me to assert that I do not feel like I have a guru?  Or maybe to assert that for me merely satisfying some spiritual bureaucratic conditions is not enough to make me feel like a teacher is my guru?  Would that make you feel better? Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.
I seem to remember you saying it somewhere.  So how many years is it?

Malcolm wrote:
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments. Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?

Malcolm wrote:
Seems pretty clear to several women in his community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.

Adamantine said:
This sounds awful.

Link to the report, source?

Doesn’t seem like something that wouldn’t have any mention
on news or social media yet there’s no trace...

Malcolm wrote:
From a fellow named Stephen Futral:


5:30pm this Thursday in Crestone we will have the Sukhavati at the Baca Grant Shrine room, not sure of time in Boulder...

I’m hearing a Sukhavati is shaping up for this Thursday in both Boulder and Crestone, will post when time, etc is firmed up!

From Judy Sachs Judy Sachs Sullivan

I got a message and photo to Ponlop Rinpoche and he did prayers for him. Tonight we will have tonglen session with the many old Vajradhatu members here and even some who did not know him. Giovanina is leading this session

Sensitivity warning:
This post is about suicide...

My heart is broken and my condolences go out to all that knew Bill, his family his followers, folks on his blog and his friends and his Sangha.

Between the recent passing of our friends Kunga Dawa and more recently Zanto aka Terry Mason we are being reduced to the basic common denominator: being Alone. And now to think my dear poet friend and heart connection has taken his life as some sacrifice of self-immolation amidst the utter disheartening news of our Shambhala Sangha rife with sexual misconduct and the stepping down of the Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche and all of the Kalapa Council.

Our world is changing, our lives are changing but the teachings of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, our three jewels will still shine through because the recipe has been handed down in our lineage and the bread has been baked fresh as the Vidyadhara used to say.

May Karuna and Prajna continue to lead us and uplift us in these dark dark moments. 'Although I live in the slime and muck of the dark age, I still aspire to see your face. Although I live in the thick black fog of materialism, I still aspire to see your face.'


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
smcj said:
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.
OMG. You sure? No hits from Google yet.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, quite sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Disagreeing with Guru
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.

Grigoris said:
I have samaya, definitely, that is (one reason) why I continue to do some of the practices that were given to me.

Having said that (as I said in another thread):  Practicing guru yoga one maintains their samaya with all their guru, since their nature is the same.

Practicing one Yidam...

Practicing...

Also it seems that you overlooked this statement that I made:  "If you keep the links with the Dharma that they shared with you..."

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru. Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Disagreeing with Guru
Content:
Tenma said:
How was your search for your guru and did you manage to do so?

Grigoris said:
Who said I have a guru?

Crazywisdom said:
I thought the 50 verses on guru devotion spoke of examining for five years.

Grigoris said:
I remember 15 years.

I don't think 5 years is enough.

For example:  I was following one teacher (my Refuge lama) for about 7 years.  Then one day I asked if he could impart an empowerment (he is authorised to) and he started to say some stuff about not wanting to form those sorts of links with students, etc...  Why would I want a teacher that is not willing to risk seriously devoting themselves to their students?  I had to travel to the other side of Greece for almost a decade to take teachings from him, I invited him and put in up in my home, etc...  Not only me, but other people in the group he was teaching to.  So it seemed kind of weird to me that he was not willing to put in the effort...

So I started looking for another teacher.

I am with my current teacher 3 years now and am in no rush to take him as my guru yet, since I do not think it is long enough.  I am willing to wait another 7+ years before completely devoting myself, I prefer this to rushing in and regretting the decision and then racking myself with guilt, or pointing fingers, as seems to be the fashion right now.

Malcolm wrote:
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A Shambhala person in Boulder immolated himself over this crisis. Hard to understand, very sad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"
Content:



Mantrik said:
The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined  'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)

Malcolm wrote:
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.

Mantrik said:
Thanks. Is it that the Tibetan text is accurate in reflecting the Sanskrit but is sometimes mispronounced?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in general Tibetan texts represent Sanskrit perfectly fine. The issue is that it has been many centuries since Tibetans made serious study of Sanskrit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.

haha said:
Here is a story:


Mantrik said:
The example raises an interesting point.
Is accuracy defined  'as in the original Sanskrit' or 'as the Tibetan master gives it'?
(I have been using exactly what was transmitted, whether for example 'Benza, Banza, or even Benzra'.)

Malcolm wrote:
Sapan indicates that mantras should be pronounced in accordance with Sanskrit. Pronunciations like bajra/bazra have Indic justifications, for example these pronunciations reflect Kashmiri lineages. Sapan notes such Indic regional variations. Personally I follow Sapan on this point, with certain exceptions where Tibetan or Apabramsa words are part of the mantra.

Benza, etc., are wrong and reflect Tibetan pronunciations of the Tibetan vowel ‘a’ before consonants.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 10th, 2018 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sapans actual view is that mantras pronounced incorrectly may yield some result, but that it takes far longer than mantras pronuncied with accuracy.

This story should not be regarded as a canonical justification.

haha said:
Here is a story:
(As it is vol. 1 and 2 Tulku Urgen Rinpoche)
Sakya Pandita said: “Oh, no! That’s the wrong mantra; it’s supposed to begin with OM BENZA .......... That’s where the real meaning lies, in the words: ‘Vajra Kilaya with consort, the Ten Sons and all the Eaters and Slayers.’ They are contained within the sounds of the mantra.” The meditator replied: “No, no, the words are not as important as the state of mind. Pure mind is more important than pure sound. I said CHILI CHILAYA in the past and that’s what I will continue to say in the future. No doubt about that! You, on the other hand, will need my phurba.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 10th, 2018 at 1:18 PM
Title: Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"
Content:
conebeckham said:
Well, as a traditionalist, until a highly realized being translates into English from Tibetan, I think there is blessing in the Tibetan language.  (If you feel there are English translations that bear the same blessing, or translations into any other language, that’s fine.....keep on practicing them and we’ll see if they bear fruit!). The first Tibetans practiced in other languages before translating, I believe...

Johnny Dangerous said:
Just my personal take, but I suspect that the blessing of singing in Tibetan is as much about the melody and sonic quality than the conceptual linguistic stuff, though maybe they are connected.

practitioner said:
One reason I love chanting sadanas in Tibetan is because it is poetry.  I often find English translations clunky and awkward in comparison.

When practing alone however, I will recite the English translation as well until I become very familiar with a practice as I don’t read Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not poetry. It is metered lines which do not in any sense resemble what we think of as poetry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 10th, 2018 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: Lama Pema Dorje
Content:
pemachophel said:
Kye ma! Kye hu!

The Dujom ngakpa, Lama Pema Dorje, entered parinirvana this morning.

A great loss to the Dudjom lineage as well as to all Nyingmapa.

Lama Pema Dorje was Lama Dawa Chodrak's older brother.

mandog said:
Who are the most experienced masters of the Tersar left in the West? It seems like all of the old Dudjom lamas teaching in the United States have passed away.

Malcolm wrote:
HH Dudjom Yangsi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 10th, 2018 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: "You need to know Tibetan to achieve enlightenment in this life"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you are only going to practice, no, it is not necessary. If you are going to be teacher, however, then some command Of Tibetan is necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2018 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West
Content:
Grigoris said:
If, when one is introduced to the nature of mind they "get it" and can "maintain it", of what value is formal practice?

Granted this is a HUGE "if".

Malcolm wrote:
Nature of mind is basis for practice, not a path.


florin said:
When the practitioner lives in the knowledge of the primordial state the base path and fruit are identical.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a big “when.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 8th, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Strategies for Keeping Practice in the West
Content:
Aryjna said:
The view that if you practice during daily life you do not need many hours of formal practice as well. It goes without saying that you should always be practicing during other activities.

Grigoris said:
If, when one is introduced to the nature of mind they "get it" and can "maintain it", of what value is formal practice?

Granted this is a HUGE "if".

Malcolm wrote:
Nature of mind is basis for practice, not a path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 8th, 2018 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
People are free to impose whatever limitations upon themselves they like.


smcj said:
You do not need to ask permission to take teachings from other lamas. You do not need approval to leave their company and move on either.


Terma said:
This may be your own view, but I don't think this is always the best way to go. If you are fortunate enough to find a teacher that you have a good degree of faith and trust in, then I think that this is a must in terms of the relationship one has developed thus far with that particular teacher. As you also said, it is a matter of respect but much more than that. If you truly trust them then although you may not like the answer they give, you have to have trust that they have your best interest at heart. Of course, this is where it can get tricky but time and time again we have been advised to investigate those teachers with whom we wish to enter such a relationship with.

In my case, I did exactly such a thing. I explained to my guru that I felt a close connection to a particular cycle from a different lineage, that I wished to receive the appropriate empowerments and transmissions, and from whom. In my case he did agree and gave me his blessing. I couldn't imagine approaching the situation any other way to be honest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 12:37 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Sādhaka said:
It’s over boyos.

Malcolm wrote:
What’s over is that men in positions of power in Buddhist organizations will need to use more care in their treatment of women. Why anyone thinks this a negative thing is beyond me, especially since treating women well is in fact a samaya. Get a clue, boyos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 8:06 AM
Title: Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left
Content:
buddhagirl said:
Given the mindset required for day-trading, it doesn't seem very compatible with Dharma practice. Actual jobs where you leave home & interact with other humans require positive attitudes & behaviours such as teamwork, a pleasant demeanour, being responsive & non-judgemental when dealing with clients/customers particularly when you're advocating on their behalf.

Whereas daytrading seems based on avarice, pure & simple - even if such endeavours are conducted in the service of one's Dharma practice, surely the seeds of desiring to accumulate wealth would be prominent in one's daily motivation.

It's always amused and horrified me how Westerners, particularly Americans, manage to merge the Dharma into their capitalist worldview. Looking at you, Shambhala and Rigpa!

Roughly a handful of years ago the Dalai Lama reiterated his support for communism as a political system that distributes abundance in a more equitable fashion - people at the Vajradhatu Sun seemed bewildered at this and wrote an editorial, if memory serves, along the lines of "what on earth is the Dalai Lama talking about, we don't get it, do you?"

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with centrally planned economies, is well, centralized planning. Markets can be regulated but not planned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 6th, 2018 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
greenvajrapani said:
I have no problem with staying with one teacher and one teacher only.

We have heard the tales of Milarepa and his Guru Devotion.

Guru devotion and I mean true Guru devotion is the very heart of Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Mila had eleven gurus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 6th, 2018 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
chimechodra said:
From how it was explained to me, apparently some years back Osel Mukpo was frustrated at how lots of older Trungpa students would have several teachers and would come to the Scorpion Seal Garchens but then end up doing their own thing or not engaging with his teachings enough. It then seems like he asked folks to prioritize him as a teacher if they were coming to the retreats, and then they highly discourage or outright forbid newer students from having other teachers. I wonder what would happen to someone who already has multiple teachers and wants to engage with Shambhala's restricted teachings. In either case, it doesn't seem like this is a totally followed by everybody, as I know that some folks like Ethan Nichtern have other teachers (or seem to at least), but it's definitely a thing.

I remember when I mentioned I was interested in Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to my meditation instructor at the time, I got severe backlash and the whole spiel about needing to commit to one path wholeheartedly. There was this idea that if you have anything more than one teacher, you're trying to walk two paths simultaneously, that you're basically dilly-dallying and not committing and that your practice will never go anywhere. While I can understand the argument of lacking focus, it felt really negative and unnecessary at the time and that's more or less when my split really started to crystallize.

Malcolm wrote:
The meditation instructor business in Shambhala is really problematical. Lots of abuse and power trips there going back decades.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 6th, 2018 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



Mr. G said:
What?  Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a strategy of containment and damage control.

Mr. G said:
Do you think that strategy was specifically meant to contain sex scandals/abuse allegations, or just damage control as a whole for any potential scandal that could come up?

Malcolm wrote:
Damage control as a whole.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.

Malcolm wrote:
The teacher is more important than the teaching, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:



Mr. G said:
What?  Yes, it's incredibly weird and nonsensical that Shambhala makes their students vow not to have any other teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a strategy of containment and damage control.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Best Masters of Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I would urge you find a Mahamudra/Great Perfection Master who teaches according to actual tantras, like Hevajra. A lot of folks fancy themselves ready to skip stages and go straight to pith instructions, but I have it on good authority that this is a mistake.

Malcolm wrote:
And for that, on this globe today, there is no one better than HH Sakya Trichen for the former and ChNN for the latter. This is not to say that there aren't many other excellent teachers, but these two are supreme. See them while you still can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:




Sennin said:
I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.

Crazywisdom said:
Take them all. It can help to have an idea what you want. For example, in my case gaining access to original Indian tantric practice was important. So I went after the oldest Unbroken lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
Didn't know you were a Sakyapa.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.


Sennin said:
I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Sakya Trichen's Views?
Content:
greenvajrapani said:
I have been told by my Lama that many people that attend his empowerments will not follow up with the proper practice.

He allows them to attend and considers that they are there for a  "Blessing" not an "Empowerment".

Malcolm wrote:
That very
Much depends on the empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
PeterC said:
Recall Milarepa’s comment on the fox and the lion. He was referring there to living the life of a householder - and saying that he wasn’t up to it.


dzogchungpa said:
Um, Milarepa may not have been "up to it" but many contemporary well respected lamas seem to be, ChNN for example, so I guess they all have greater capacity than him, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, perhaps. Not everyone is under the apprehension that Mila achieved complete Buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 9:30 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
PeterC said:
You believe that his actions do not constitute sexual abuse and potentially attempted rape?

Snowbear said:
Mipham's case is not rape. It is sexual misconduct.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the possibility that he may have raped a women in Chile was brought up, but for lack of evidence, other than rumors in Shambhala that he was "bad" in Chile, there is no other proof. Rumors do not constitute sufficient grounds for prosecution. However, that there are such rumors in itself troubling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 9:28 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot dismiss lightly the nonvirtue of one person by invoking the nonvirtue of another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.

yan kong said:
You did the math?

Snowbear said:
Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.


Malcolm wrote:
It is similar the fagging system in English Public Schools, ala Tom Brown's Schooldays.

There were/are all kinds of systematic problems with the Tibetan monastic system, but I think another thread is needed for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
florin said:
This is what i want to know.
Is there a basis in scripture in asserting that a monk can be a better vajrayana teacher than non-monastics.
Since all the riches were found in or around monsteries isnt this a veiled effort at preserving the vajrayana monastic status quo over the laity ?
I cant help but think that there might be something here...


Malcolm wrote:
Florin, the scriptural basis were already cited above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?

Snowbear said:
You're 110% right, and it should be like that, but it's not like there is a professional ethics course for Lamas. It really requires education and training.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have your solution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.

Grigoris said:
How do you square this with the fact that your main teacher is a lay person?

Just a reminder:  mine are too.

This is not a dig, I am actually truly interested because, it seems to me, that if one were to embrace this logic it would lead to a fair amount of dissonance.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma, I guess. I have two gurus who were fully ordained monks, the rest, for the most part, have been ngakpas. M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
florin said:
Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06/what-lies-beneath-the-robes-are-buddhist-monasteries-suitable-places-for-children-adele-wilde-blavatsky/

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
smcj said:
You would think so, but apologists for the male abuse of women will create very tangled rationales in their heads for why it is anyone's fault but the abuser's.
This can also be taken to an extreme. For instance, in the Lama Norlha scandal it was put to us that in all cases the relationship is inappropriate, and that in all cases it is the clergyman’s fault for letting it happen.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a legal fact in some states.


smcj said:
This includes if the woman initiated it and willingly participated for years. She still bears zero responsibility even then. And that means both he and his organization are legally liable in a lawsuit.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, so, if you are a teacher, keep your hands off your students.


smcj said:
However it also means that adult women are given the same status as a child in that they are deemed to not have the power of consent at all. The idea that adults can have zero responsibility for their actions is, well, something. I can’t think of the right word for it right now.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure you accept that there can be no lawful consent between doctors, health providers, social workers, psychologists, etc., and their patients/clients. Why should it be any different with students of Dharma teachers?

We are not saying that Lama X should under no circumstances date a man or a woman; it is just that man or woman ought not be someone training under Lama X.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Snowbear, you’ve got to understand that for  a lot of guys on this board Malcolm is like some kind of god and whatever he says is gospel, even when it contradicts other things he’s said.

Josef said:
Or those of us who actually know Malcolm and consider him a friend respect the decades of his life that he has dedicated to the dharma and his generosity to people on this board.

Malcolm wrote:
Haters gonna hate, that is just a fact of life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:



kirtu said:
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years.  The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.

kirtu said:
Which certainly wins the non sequitur award.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all-- the white demographic is declining, and millennials are socialist-oriented, even in conservative parts of the nation. They know they will never experience the prosperity of their grandparents, and they are looking at a world that is poisoned, etc. If anyone can change things, they can.

But the white people in the South and the Midwest are racist to the core, not even knowing it, in many cases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of interest:

Yet when we look closely at the men described as serious and serial offenders—the ones indicted or convicted of sexual crimes (Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Larry Nassar), or the ones accused of being repeat predators, gropers and exhibitionists (among them Louis C.K., Steve Wynn, Mark Halperin, Kevin Spacey, James Levine)—there’s also something strangely stylized about their behavior. It’s as if they were following a script available only to them, their victims forced to improvise in an awful, repetitive drama. The hotel rooms. Their surprise appearance in a bathrobe. (So many men have reportedly relied on the unbelted robe, from Weinstein to Charlie Rose to architect Richard Meier, that it could now be called the pervert’s uniform.) And the masturbation! So much masturbation! Behind desks, on women’s legs, inside their own pants. Their alleged predations are shocking in their brazenness, breadth and damage: At least 85 women have accused Weinstein; more than 50 have accused Cosby; more than 200 have accused writer-director James Toback. At Nassar’s sentencing, prosecutors identified more than 265 victims.
...

The therapists also describe a pattern of sexual behavior called “avoidant attachment.” People with avoidant attachment patterns, they write, often have difficulty forming adult relationships. Even if these individuals are in a primary romantic relationship, they are more likely to seek sex elsewhere. Meanwhile, people with unconventional turn-ons may feel shame or embarrassment, so they avoid exploring their desires with a partner, preferring the reliability of masturbation. They can engage in out-of-control sexual behavior to regulate the threat of emotional closeness. Or, as Morin wrote, “Lust is most likely to turn destructive when it is split off from the rest of life, where it festers and grows hostile.”
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/harvey-weinstein-psychology-sexual-predators/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:




Snowbear said:
You did the math?

Malcolm wrote:
I've been in the Buddhist scene for 35 years. I've done the math. I know about scandals you have never heard of and never will. Not from my lips.

Snowbear said:
Fine, but that's not math.

Malcolm wrote:
The issue, here, incidentally, is Osel Mukpo's failure as a teacher who has the best interest of all his students at heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
I've been in the Buddhist scene for 35 years. I've done the math. I know about scandals you have never heard of and never will. Not from my lips.

Snowbear said:
Fine, but that's not math.

yan kong said:
Your demand of some sort of proof is ironic as you made little effort to back up your own remarks.

Malcolm wrote:
And he can't. Classic "whataboutism."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
I'm sure scandals happen with monastics too, man.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they do, but not with such frequency.


Snowbear said:
You did the math?

Malcolm wrote:
I've been in the Buddhist scene for 35 years. I've done the math. I know about scandals you have never heard of and never will. Not from my lips.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Norwegian said:
This is very easy to understand. At least it should be.

Malcolm wrote:
You would think so, but apologists for the male abuse of women will create very tangled rationales in their heads for why it is anyone's fault but the abuser's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
I'm sure scandals happen with monastics too, man.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they do, but not with such frequency.


Snowbear said:
Keep in mind these lay gurus in the West are often put into that role by heads of lineages. If you want to point fingers, blame them.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? Who put Sogyal in charge (answer, no one)? Mukpo inherited his position, he does not really belong to any of the four schools. Even of the lineage heads are awakened, as some must be, that does not mean they are omniscient.

In general, in the West, it is open center first, get permission later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:
kirtu said:
... Most of the US can legally refuse to provide goods and services to LBGTQ people....

Quay said:
Yes it can an often does. I live in one of those states where it is perfectly legal to do so and have been the victim of such discrimination in more than one setting, including a medical one at a hospital. It's completely tragic how some lives are seen as worth less than others by some people.

kirtu said:
Which is one reason why I will be voting with my feet in a few years.  The US is at its core a socially fascist nation and will be so through my lifetime.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Kirt, the white demographic is on the decline.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:




dzogchungpa said:
See: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=indolent

Moral indolence and apathy, both Babbitt and Weaver stress, are forces of gravity that need to be quelled if one is to fly beyond the nets of naturalism and temperamental excesses.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2013/05/irving-babbitt-and-richard-weaver.html



dzogchungpa said:
LOL. Dude, if you meant "morally indolent" you should have said:

Correct, women are human beings with dignity who should not treated like cum dumps for spoiled, entitled, morally indolent men.


Malcolm wrote:
Keep grasping at reeds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Honestly this whole "monks do it better" thing is kind of an absurd digression. The best guru is one who can really benefit you. To take some obvious examples, are ChNN or HSTT somehow inferior gurus because they are not monks?



Malcolm wrote:
They are both qualify as glorious gurus, palden lamas.

And it is not an absurd digression at all. If people stopped lionizing ngakpas simple because they are lay persons, a lot of this nonsense would be forestalled. You might have noticed that these scandals are most prominent in organizations run by lay gurus. Wonder why? If you do, you are an idiot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of indolence -- moral indolence is the the worst, far worse that physical indolence.


dzogchungpa said:
See: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=indolent

Moral indolence and apathy, both Babbitt and Weaver stress, are forces of gravity that need to be quelled if one is to fly beyond the nets of naturalism and temperamental excesses.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2013/05/irving-babbitt-and-richard-weaver.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:




dzogchungpa said:
Traduce him all you want, but the guy is not indolent, I mean, he runs marathons.

Malcolm wrote:
Lots of indolent people are into fitness. They have the time for it since they do not work.


dzogchungpa said:
Honestly, I just don't think that someone who runs marathons can reasonably be said to be indolent. Have you ever run one? It's no joke and takes a lot of training.


Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of indolence -- moral indolence is the the worst, far worse that physical indolence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:


Gatinho said:
Thanks - it would seem that the 'attainment of stages of awakening' is the key - otherwise we are talking about monastic hierarchy (?).

Malcolm wrote:
Look carefully:
Unless he has attained the stages of awakening,
A layman is not to be venerated as a [tantric] master, [not even] by a king.
This says nothing about monastics.

Gatinho said:
The next line does.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not relevant bhikshu gurus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: "Instant presence"
Content:
Marc said:
I think that ChNN coining the term “instant presence” refers to a Londge teaching of Garab Dorje that defines Rigpa as “Kétchik Dangpo Shépa” ཀད་ཅིག་དང་པོ་ཤེས་པ་ “the first moment/instant of cognition”.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma is about liberation, all kinds of liberation, since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction, whether towards, class, race, rank, etc. Hence Buddhadharma is inherently liberal. Historically, it also flourished most widely in the merchant castes. Modern Liberalism was an expression of the drive to political power of the disenfranchised bourgeoise in Europe.

Grigoris said:
People define liberation in all sorts of ways though.  National Socialists consider themselves liberators, albeit of the master race.

Malcolm wrote:
"since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:


Gatinho said:
Thanks - it would seem that the 'attainment of stages of awakening' is the key - otherwise we are talking about monastic hierarchy (?).

Malcolm wrote:
Look carefully:
Unless he has attained the stages of awakening,
A layman is not to be venerated as a [tantric] master, [not even] by a king.
This says nothing about monastics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Personally I think there isn't necessarily an automatic agreement between traditional Buddhism and Western liberal and libertarian philosophies.  Identity politics itself, I would have thought, be hard to reconcile with Buddhist values. After all Buddhism originated as a renunciate philosophy, so  the notion of a 'constructed social identity' would not naturally align with that, as it is presumably amongst the things that is to be renounced.

Malcolm wrote:
And yet, Buddha appears to have spearheaded a movement that among other things, cast down brahmins. So there is a social and class aspect to Buddhism that cannot be ignored. There is clear evidence in the Hinayana canon of class prejudice and Buddha's negative reaction to it.


Wayfarer said:
It's just that in the context of modern Western culture, Buddhism often appears as an alternative or counter-cultural movement, so naturally finds itself aligned with liberal and libertarian politics in the West, but I think traditional Buddhism could easily be more inclined much more towards social conservatism - as it sometimes is, for instance, in Japanese politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma is about liberation, all kinds of liberation, since all kinds of liberation require giving up some measure of affliction, whether towards, class, race, rank, etc. Hence Buddhadharma is inherently liberal. Historically, it also flourished most widely in the merchant castes. Modern Liberalism was an expression of the drive to political power of the disenfranchised bourgeoise in Europe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
That's a broad declaration. As far as I know, karmamudra was necessary in Kagyu. Gampopa attaining enlightenment without a woman was a rare exception. There are many lineages with different oral traditions and lay yogis with accomplishments. In sum, I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
No one denies that lay people are capable of attaining Buddhahood. But that was not the substance of your claim. The fact is that in Indian and Tibetan history the vast majority of gurus have been monks. Simply put, being a qualified Vajrayana master takes a lot of education and training, and that training is generally undertaken at tantric colleges by monastics.

Evidence of this may be found in the fifty verses of guru devotion where monks are given a pass for not prostrating to lay gurus. It is also clearly explained here too that monks who maintain all three vows are the best sort of gurus.

Karmamudra is not required for levels of awakening up to the tenth bhumi.

It is completely unneeded in Dzogchen and certain lineages from Naropa.

Snowbear said:
Verses, sure. But what percentage of lineage holders in each of the schools were monks vs lay?

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, read some lineage lists. I am not going to do your homework for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 11:03 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
History doesn't support that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually it does. By far and away in the history of India and Tibet, the majority of qualified gurus have been fully ordained monks. Try reading some history for a change rather than making embarrassingly mistaken assertions about things of which you are clearly ill-informed.

Snowbear said:
That's a broad declaration. As far as I know, karmamudra was necessary in Kagyu. Gampopa attaining enlightenment without a woman was a rare exception. There are many lineages with different oral traditions and lay yogis with accomplishments. In sum, I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
No one denies that lay people are capable of attaining Buddhahood. But that was not the substance of your claim. The fact is that in Indian and Tibetan history the vast majority of gurus have been monks. Simply put, being a qualified Vajrayana master takes a lot of education and training, and that training is generally undertaken at tantric colleges by monastics.

Evidence of this may be found in the fifty verses of guru devotion where monks are given a pass for not prostrating to lay gurus. It is also clearly explained here too that monks who maintain all three vows are the best sort of gurus.

Karmamudra is not required for levels of awakening up to the tenth bhumi.

It is completely unneeded in Dzogchen and certain lineages from Naropa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 10:41 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
Vajrayana gurus aren't "clergymen." That's a Western conception.

Malcolm wrote:
The supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly tin antras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.

Snowbear said:
History doesn't support that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually it does. By far and away in the history of India and Tibet, the majority of qualified gurus have been fully ordained monks. Try reading some history for a change rather than making embarrassingly mistaken assertions about things of which you are clearly ill-informed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 10:28 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
smcj said:
Maybe there should also be reform for "yes women" culture and romanticization of men.
The reason this is an issue here and not with rock stars and their groupies is that the clergyman holds a position of trust. So even though the phenomenon of guru groupies does exist, you’re not going to be able to sort out responsibility on a case by case basis in court. It’s too messy. So eventually some rule will eventually be imposed that nobody likes but is necessary in order to manage the court cases.

Snowbear said:
Vajrayana gurus aren't "clergymen." That's a Western conception.

Malcolm wrote:
The supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Correct, women are human beings with dignity who should not treated like cum dumps for spoiled, entitled, indolent men.


dzogchungpa said:
Traduce him all you want, but the guy is not indolent, I mean, he runs marathons.

Malcolm wrote:
Lots of indolent people are into fitness. They have the time for it since they do not work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
Can anyone explain to me what this woman thought was going to happen next when she went to his room? I'm sure she wasn't stupid. She also shares responsibility.

kirtu said:
Perhaps she thought she was going to receive a personal teaching or private empowerment or encouragement or advice or an opportunaity to serve her teacher in a legitimate way.

Kirt

Snowbear said:
Kirt, women aren't children.


Malcolm wrote:
Correct, women are human beings with dignity who should not treated like cum dumps for spoiled, entitled, indolent men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 9:47 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
I witnessed the steady stream of attractive women that were invited into his quarters and I longed to be the one that he fell in love with and was worthy of being his wife. 

During a program you could often tell who the Sakyong was going to pursue that night by who he made eye contact with during the teaching or feast. One night I received a call from his kusung at 11pm or 12pm saying that the Sakyong would like to see me and that I should come to his suite. I was thrilled and nervous. When I got there, he was dressed solely in a robe with no clothes underneath. We chatted for a while. Then he led me into his room and began kissing me and removing my clothes. I said that I couldn’t have sex with him. He seemed stunned. He thought for a while and then pushed my face down towards his penis and said “Well you might as well finish this.” I was so embarrassed and horrified I did it. He rolled over in bed and didn’t say another word to me.
Can anyone explain to me what this woman thought was going to happen next when she went to his room? I'm sure she wasn't stupid. She also shares responsibility.

Malcolm wrote:
Victim blaming much?  Perhaps the dress she was wearing was too short, or her blouse cut too low.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
It's important to consider that Mipham R. has a way to justify it in his mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So do wife-beaters, serial killers, and pedophiles.

Snowbear said:
I don't see any violence, stalking, or child sex in the reports. In fact, when one woman finally spoke up and said no, he apologized, left, and ended the relationship.

Malcolm wrote:
Forcing someone”s head onto your penis isn’t violent?

Btw, HW frequently apologized to victims of his sexual assaults. I guess that makes them ok in your mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Snowbear, you’ve got to understand that for  a lot of guys on this board Malcolm is like some kind of god and whatever he says is gospel, even when it contradicts other things he’s said.

Malcolm wrote:
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

—Emerson


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
No problem: hold them accountable. But trying to narrow interpretations to demonstrate that the problem is "quite clear" is disingenuous.

Josef said:
It's good thing its quite clear that isnt whats happening.

Snowbear said:
It's important to consider that Mipham R. has a way to justify it in his mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So do wife-beaters, serial killers, and pedophiles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Vajrapani and ChNN
Content:
Mantrik said:
In the text of the Naga Rite, and apparently even in the Thuns, ChNN originally has Vajrapani as Yidam.

What was the course of events which led to his replacement in Thuns etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Cancer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2018 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:


Gatinho said:
I get what you are saying but I think I'll follow the teachings I have been given on the Root Downfalls, the notes to which seem to support my interpretation, but maybe I should check with the Lama on this - so it's helpful to have your view.

Malcolm wrote:
I've checked and I read Tibetan, including the text you referenced (we are referencing the same source, BTW). But everyone has to make up their own mind, even if their decision is, in the end, in error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:




dzogchungpa said:
Huh. Do you think CTR was awakened?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know. All I can tell you is that he is not a teacher I would have ever sought out, because I have my doubts. Mahāsiddhas do not usually die of complications resulting from alcoholism, nor do they have expensive cocaine habits, as far as I know.

Of course he had a lot of teachings, and it is very possible he attained realization in the bardo, but that is not very impressive, in fact.



dzogchungpa said:
Well, I don't know either but as the awakened being Ato Rinpoche said: No other teacher who comes to the West is like Trungpa Rinpoche. His teachings have benefited Western people so much—particularly his view on mahamudra and maha ati. He was really special.
So, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt.


Malcolm wrote:
I understand that in the Karma Kagyu hierarchy, it is very difficult to criticize Trungpa. He put them on the map.

But then there is Thomas Rich, Osel Mukpo, and so on...it seems Trungpa's successors have not had the same level of impact, and in some respects, may have severely blunted it.

From my point of view, no teacher has done more to spread Dzogchen in the west than ChNN. Trungpa never really taught Dzogchen to anyone. He just talked about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
This should not be a topic for public discussion.

Mantrik said:
Since no practice detail is being discussed, it is perfectly OK. Let me guess, your inner tantra troll is awakening.

Pubic and public discussions are quite common here, in fact.

Snowbear said:
Discussions about your sex life should be had with your Dharma teacher, not here with internet personalities.

Malcolm wrote:
Why are you having the discussion then? What are you. Some kind of Dharma cop? Arbiter of the right and the true? If you don't like the discussion, piss off.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
Considering "inner tantra" does not apply to most of us, this conversation is irrelevant and can be misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many practitioners of inner tantra here. People who are not practicing Anuttarayoga Tantra or the three inner tantras do not have to be concerned with this specific issue. But then, such people do not have gurus in the sense meant in Anuttarayoga tantra, since guru yoga is a specific practice in HYT/Inner tantras and does not exist in the three lower tantras at all, nor to the 22 root and branch samayas.

Snowbear said:
This should not be a topic for public discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
But discuss it we must since the pretext for much the egregious behavior of these teachers is precisely preying on the fantasies people have about karmamudra, tantra, and the like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahāsiddhas do not usually die of complications resulting from alcoholism, nor do they have expensive cocaine habits, as far as I know.

Snowbear said:
Hagiographies aren't the best sources for historical info.

Malcolm wrote:
Alcoholics don't generally make it that far.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I can't remember his name right now, but isn't (or wasn't) there a well respected lama living in England who was married to a Christian woman? I beleive it was mentioned on this forum.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, indeed there is such a person, Ato Rinpoche. But of course, people on the actual transcendent paths and stages cannot break samaya. Samaya is for us, not for such awakened beings.

It is crucial to understand the difference between the conduct of ordinary people like us, and awakened people (by all accounts) of the man to whom you refer.


dzogchungpa said:
Huh. Do you think CTR was awakened?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know. All I can tell you is that he is not a teacher I would have ever sought out, because I have my doubts. Mahāsiddhas do not usually die of complications resulting from alcoholism, nor do they have expensive cocaine habits, as far as I know.

Of course he had a lot of teachings, and it is very possible he attained realization in the bardo, but that is not very impressive, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
Considering "inner tantra" does not apply to most of us, this conversation is irrelevant and can be misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many practitioners of inner tantra here. People who are not practicing Anuttarayoga Tantra or the three inner tantras do not have to be concerned with this specific issue. But then, such people do not have gurus in the sense meant in Anuttarayoga tantra, since guru yoga is a specific practice in HYT/Inner tantras and does not exist in the three lower tantras at all, nor do the 22 root and branch samayas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The civil rights movement in this country was fought in part because whites refused to serve blacks at restaurants and hotels all over the US. Businesses do not have a right to discriminate.

Mantrik said:
Maybe I'm beyond redemption, but I feel It is not reasonable to specifically target a couple running a B&B known to hold deeply Christian beliefs against homosexuality, book a room and turn up at the door as a gay male couple, then have them prosecuted for politely turning you away. That is just malicious and unnecessary.

Malcolm wrote:
In the United States, this is a violation of civil rights. If you advertise hotelier services, and refuse to book gay people in your hotel/BB merely because they are gay, you are opening yourself up for a civil suit. The case law about this is extremely clear. Opinions don't matter.


Mantrik said:
I suspect a Moslem butcher would not be prosecuted for refusing to make a pork pie for a customer, and that is when we realise that we have lost sight of the very basis of the law  - what is fair, consistent and reasonable.

Malcolm wrote:
Muslim Butchers don't sell pork. Irrelevant example. If they did sell pork however, and refused to sell it to someone who was gay because they were gay, or black, because they were black, they would have a very real lawsuit on their hands, they would lose, and rightly so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I can't remember his name right now, but isn't (or wasn't) there a well respected lama living in England who was married to a Christian woman? I beleive it was mentioned on this forum.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, indeed there is such a person, Ato Rinpoche. But of course, people on the actual transcendent paths and stages cannot break samaya. Samaya is for us, not for such awakened beings.

It is crucial to understand the difference between the conduct of ordinary people like us, and awakened people (by all accounts) of the man to whom you refer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Gatinho said:
Just as a point of clarification (I hope!) looking at Sakya Panditas Vajrayani Mula Pati (Dorje Thegpa Tsa-wa'i Tungwa) the First Branch Downfall is:

'If one takes on the path a consort who has not had the initiation, by relying on her as a mental object, one commits the first branch downfall.'

What this means is that if you are practicing completion stage Anuttarayoga such as the 'path of messengers' you cannot do this with the physical consort who has not received empowerments or with the mental image of them as the yidam.  Since for this practice you are relying on the consort it must be an appropriate one.

Malcolm wrote:
It is tempting to read it this way. But is not the case. If someone is engaged in HYT practice, it is not like they are allowed to put down their practice to engage in a bit of mundane sport, and then pick up their practice after having smoked a cigarette.

Gatinho said:
So the mistake would be to confuse ordinary sexual relations with yoga involving a consort.

Malcolm wrote:
Someone practicing inner tantra should never be involved in ordinary sexual relations. It is a downfall, easily repaired, but a downfall nevertheless. Since most people practice mother tantra, one should consult the 8 special samayas related to mother tantra.

Gatinho said:
Thus it is perfectly normal and pleasant to fall in love with a non-initiate, have a sexual relationship, feel the earth move, settle down, have children and argue over breakfast and so on but do not confuse this samsaric experience with the liberating effect of yoga tantra.  That would be the branch downfall.

This is how I read it.

Malcolm wrote:
You are entitled to your reading, but there is sufficient commentarial evidence contra this interpretation.


Gatinho said:
This is quite a different issue to the precept on 'sexual misconduct' - which by the way is the most poorly defined of the five lay precepts.  And it is also a different issue to sex as an antinomial/trangressive act in tantra generally.


Malcolm wrote:
If one is referring to the practice of taking low caste consorts like ḍombinis, and so on; this is part of vratacārya, brtul zhugs spyod pa.  We do not have a cultural context for this in the West, any longer. Though of course the outrage in some quarters at Henry marrying Meghan Merkel approaches it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
You think enlightenment erases a person's humanness? I don't.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely, if by human one means being in an afflicted state.

Snowbear said:
Do you think there is any person alive today that does not have sexual feelings? Other than, of course, abnormal clinical cases.

Malcolm wrote:
Sexual urges are not necessarily afflictive, anymore more than the urge to eat. One however need not act on sexual urges at all, or overindulge them in the case of lay people. Indeed, for practitioners, it is better to avoid having children, no matter what level of the Dharma one practices.

It is pretty clear that in Tibetan Buddhism there are any number of male teachers who are more than willing to exploit naive and unqualified female students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:49 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Regarding the samaya of not having sex with non-practitioners:

What are those of us who have relationships with non-practitioners to do, divorce or otherwise leave our partners?  We're told that being Buddhist is a matter of karma and thus, we don't proselytize and convert others if they don't have the same karma.  Yet, we (okay, I) had the karma to get involved with another who is not cut from the same cloth...

And, if one breaks a branch samaya, what can one do?  Usually, the remedy is to vow to never do it again, but what if one is married or falls in love.  Not so easy.

I'm okay with not ever engaging in higher yoga practice, if that's what it takes.  I just find it slightly off putting that the Dharma, would be so rigid when it comes to something which has nothing to do with unkindness.

this is giving me the notion I may have to give up my lifelong spiritual beliefs because it doesn't fit into the "rules".  But, I would rather think it simply bullshit, like whomever told Tara she could not become enlightened in female form.


Malcolm wrote:
This what vajrasattva is for. No one expects you to abandon your spouse. It is s branch downfall, not a root downfall. In any case, samaya is easily purified, unlike lower yana vows. However, Buddhadharma is probably the least sentimental path there is.

TharpaChodron said:
Thanks for the clarification.  Being sentimental is unavoidable for most humans, so we do our best. But being sentimental isn't a bad thing and I am not sure Buddhism isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
The minute one thinks Buddhism is sentimental, review karma and its results. Being sentimental is not necessarily bad, it is largely absent in Buddhism


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:45 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
I'm more interested in a definition in your own words. To me, teachers/gurus are normal human beings.

Jangchup Donden said:
'
So you're saying there's no enlightenment to be had? No qualities of realization? Or that there isn't any more (hooray kali yuga)?

Snowbear said:
You think enlightenment erases a person's humanness? I don't.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely, if by human one means being in an afflicted state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 10:44 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Regarding the samaya of not having sex with non-practitioners:

What are those of us who have relationships with non-practitioners to do, divorce or otherwise leave our partners?  We're told that being Buddhist is a matter of karma and thus, we don't proselytize and convert others if they don't have the same karma.  Yet, we (okay, I) had the karma to get involved with another who is not cut from the same cloth...

And, if one breaks a branch samaya, what can one do?  Usually, the remedy is to vow to never do it again, but what if one is married or falls in love.  Not so easy.

I'm okay with not ever engaging in higher yoga practice, if that's what it takes.  I just find it slightly off putting that the Dharma, would be so rigid when it comes to something which has nothing to do with unkindness.

this is giving me the notion I may have to give up my lifelong spiritual beliefs because it doesn't fit into the "rules".  But, I would rather think it simply bullshit, like whomever told Tara she could not become enlightened in female form.


Malcolm wrote:
This what vajrasattva is for. No one expects you to abandon your spouse. It is s branch downfall, not a root downfall. In any case, samaya is easily purified, unlike lower yana vows. However, Buddhadharma is probably the least sentimental path there is.

Snowbear said:
Vajrasattva for marrying a non-Buddhist? Come on, man.

Malcolm wrote:
Did I say that? No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Regarding the samaya of not having sex with non-practitioners:

What are those of us who have relationships with non-practitioners to do, divorce or otherwise leave our partners?  We're told that being Buddhist is a matter of karma and thus, we don't proselytize and convert others if they don't have the same karma.  Yet, we (okay, I) had the karma to get involved with another who is not cut from the same cloth...

And, if one breaks a branch samaya, what can one do?  Usually, the remedy is to vow to never do it again, but what if one is married or falls in love.  Not so easy.

I'm okay with not ever engaging in higher yoga practice, if that's what it takes.  I just find it slightly off putting that the Dharma, would be so rigid when it comes to something which has nothing to do with unkindness.

this is giving me the notion I may have to give up my lifelong spiritual beliefs because it doesn't fit into the "rules".  But, I would rather think it simply bullshit, like whomever told Tara she could not become enlightened in female form.


Malcolm wrote:
This what vajrasattva is for. No one expects you to abandon your spouse. It is s branch downfall, not a root downfall. In any case, samaya is easily purified, unlike lower yana vows. However, Buddhadharma is probably the least sentimental path there is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I think "liberal" immigration laws are meant to exploit the poor and destroy the native working class.

Grigoris said:
There is no "native" working class in America. Have no issue with the rest except what it means to "support LGBT. I think private businesses have the right to say they can't decorate a cake with LGBT messages.
So if a Black american asked for a "Black" message on their cake, do you think the private business should have the right to refuse?

Mantrik said:
Let's examine the flip side:

Can a lesbian cafe sue a customer who refuses to eat there? I suspect that things have become mad enough for that to happen. Whose rights are more important? Which needs protection most - someone's livelihood or someone's hurt feelings because Snowflake Diddums can't force someone to make them a cake.

I don't have to sell you my car if I don't like the look of you, or your attitude, so why can't a small trader be as free?

Forcing shops and hotels to sell to people is not liberalisation, it is compulsion, bullying pure and simpel.  You can't have different laws for different groups in that way ....... what if a Trump supporter, or an NRA supporter or an extreme IS fanatic wanted their message on a cake? Should they be able to sue if you refuse?

What if the message denigrates women, threatens murder of one etc. and you are a Vajrayana practitioner - should you be forced by law to write their message?

Should a B&B be forced to accept everyone in their own home, regardless? How would you like to be forced to take in a few Nazis?
Guess what - if I want to take my dog I find a place that welcomes dogs.  If I wanted to take kids, same applies.  If I want to smoke, same applies.


The BLT sandwich has got too fat, too bloated with overblown self-importance and the entitlement mentality of ever tinier minorities who want the world to make massive and expensive changes for them.  Here's the news - they can buy the sodding cake from someone else, and they can book a different B&B.

In times of huge UK social deprivation, money is being spent in schools on creating toilets or reconfiguring existing ones at huge cost for tiny kids who say yes when questioned if they would like gender transitioning. Meanwhile, other kids in the same school can't get food and teachers are being made redundant.

This isn't liberal.  THis is pandering to a tiny self-important minority at the expense of others, with no evaluation of cost/benefit or whose human rights need protecting the most. Yes, most of that list makes sense.  The LGBTUGVJW nonsense is pandering to loud campaigners, not those truly in desperate need, by means of  'liberal' oppression.

Malcolm wrote:
The civil rights movement in this country was fought in part because whites refused to serve blacks at restaurants and hotels all over the US. Businesses do not have a right to discriminate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Knowing something one has not experienced is liking knowing there is sugar without having ever tasted it. That kind of knowledge is conceptual.

Rick said:
I understand.

Advaita's response to this (afaik) is: Brahman cannot be experienced, it's tasteless.

Buddhism is laser-focused on the ending of suffering ... and Advaita is more focused on the knowing of (what they take to be) truth. Experiential benefits are secondary, more or less icing on the cake. That's what I was taught, in any case.

Thanks, Malcolm, for always pushing me to look critically at my belief system, much of which is (of course!) unconscious, unseen by me.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahayana Buddhism is focused on both liberation and the two kinds of omniscience: omniscience concerning the real nature of all phenomena and omniscience concerning all aspects of all that is. The direct perception of shunyata is required for both liberation and omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then of what possible relevance would it be to liberation?

Rick said:
Enlightenment per Advaita is knowing, not experiencing.

Of course one could argue that "knowing" IS experiencing. But I don't think that's what Buddhists have in mind when they talk about experiencing.

Malcolm wrote:
Knowing something one has not experienced is liking knowing there is sugar without having ever tasted it. That kind of knowledge is conceptual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Rick said:
There's so much deeply impassioned fighting about Advaitin vs. Buddhist views. And within each tradition, there is so much infighting. And within each subtradition more fighting, sub-sub-tradition, all the way down to the individual, in whose mind the war rages on.

I guess it's in the nature of humans to defend, tooth and nail, what they believe in.

Once in a while someone appears who is open to the essential "truth" in all views ... and they are like a breath of bracing fresh air!

Malcolm wrote:
The only essential truth is that all views are a source of faults.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
DharmaChakra said:
Namaste Rick,

Rick said:
Namaste DharmaChakra. To your original question. Firstly Brahman as per Advaita Vedanta cannot be conceptualized or named or brought into any idea. There is a way to understand how this works and is understood. It will depend on your understanding of Advaita Vedanta, there are many systems, the modern neo advaita is far from it.
Yes. Vijnana is not the same as Brahman vi is in insight or when mind turns inwards, to get experiential knowledge of what is Brahman, through vijnana, vijnana is indirect or state of consciousness when one acquires direct understanding/experience of the nature of brahma~Absolute Reality,
My understanding is that brahman cannot be directly experienced. "Direct experiences of brahman" are mithya, not paramartha satya. I guess you could make an argument for indirect experiences of brahman in the sense of everything (we experience) is, ultimately, brahman.

Malcolm wrote:
Then of what possible relevance would it be to liberation?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Jangchup Donden said:
Personally, I'd like to shy away from a blanket "a guru should never take a student as a karmamudra ever, ever" as Guru Rinpoche didn't follow that example. On the other hand, I'm pretty comfortable saying a guru should not be having mundane sex with a student.

Grigoris said:
So teachers should only get laid via Tinder?

I imagine that many teachers have lasting and loving relationships with students.  I cannot see why that is a problem.  Not all sex is abusive, after all...

Malcolm wrote:
It is a question of professional ethics, in my estimation.

Teachers should not sleep with their students. There is too much evidence that in Tibetan Buddhism, the relationship is too unequal to satisfy the criteria of adult consent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Scary Liberal Views and Policy Positions?
Content:
boda said:
Last night Sean Hannity (Fox News contributor) said, “many are hailing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a rising star on the political landscape but in reality, her views, her policy positions, are actually downright scary.” And then showed a graphic outlining her platform:

“Medicare For All”
“Housing As a Human Right”
“A Federal Jobs Guarantee”
“Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban”
“Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons”
“Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE”
“Solidarity with Puerto Rico”
“Mobilizing Against Climate Change”
“Clean Campaign Finance”
“Higher Education for All”
“Women’s Rights”
“Support LGBTQIA+”
“Support Seniors”
“Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: Lots of questions about Dharmapalas & Yidams
Content:


Pumo said:
Also, take in account I'm a novice practitioner, I don't even practice Tantra, I'm a beginner at meditation and I'm mainly focused on the study of Sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
This information is not proper for you to be concerned with then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2018 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Virgo said:
I have a woodchuck in my back yard.  I named him Favio.

Kevin...

Grigoris said:
But how much wood could your woodchuck chuck?

Malcolm wrote:
...if a woodchuck could chuck wood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Miroku said:
Western fascination with karmamudra is quite interesting. I have read/heard some statements that karmamudra is actually mostly for those who have not recognized the state of rigpa and are of lower capacity.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct. In order to practice karmamudra one must be very stable in the experiential view.

Miroku said:
I see. But isn't it also used as a form of semdzin for lower capacity students?

Malcolm wrote:
No. This is a misunderstanding that comes from misconstruing some instructions concerning cultivating the experiences of bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Miroku said:
Western fascination with karmamudra is quite interesting. I have read/heard some statements that karmamudra is actually mostly for those who have not recognized the state of rigpa and are of lower capacity.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct. In order to practice karmamudra one must be very stable in the experiential view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
I think it's a mistake to abandon the idea of practising Highest Yoga Tantra in Western society because of the sexual misconduct of some prominent Teachers. Karmamudra has a specific purpose and is only meant to be engaged in after many generation and completion stage realisations have already been attained. HYT is also meant to be practised in the context of Sutra teachings on renunciation, compassion, bodhichitta and the correct view of emptiness. If HYT is practised with a firm foundation of Sutra then there is no danger of it being misused.

Furthermore, although karmamudra is practised in the common lineage of Mahamudra instructions, there are some lineages of Mahamudra instructions where it is not necessary, therefore it is possible to complete the path to enlightenment using solitary meditation with a wisdom mudra without an  action mudra at all.


Malcolm wrote:
We don’t often agree,  but what you say here is true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
smcj said:
One of the requirements for karmamudra is that both partners should be experienced in creation and completion stage practice to a very high degree.
Yeah, but how do you demonstrate that to a woman?

Malcolm wrote:
Both partners, not just one. If both partners are experienced, they can easily tell.

Classically, in India, one would train a partner personally, taking them through Hinayāna, Mahāyāna, and finally present them to one's guru for abhisheka, and then support their training until they were sufficiently well trained to engage in karmamudra practice-- in the meantime one would rely on a jñānamudra.

We live in a degenerate era, so these procedures and safeguards are not being followed in many cases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
chimechodra said:
All this news has had me very discouraged and deeply saddened. Shambhala was where I started my path. I still go to the local center every now and then and have tons of friends at all different levels of involvement in Shambhala. Hell, the last few months I'd been contemplating the idea of doing some more classes and retreats with them since I remember experiencing so much growth in my early days when I did the levels. Now I'm disgusted and I'm not sure how I feel about even stepping into another Shambhala center.

I always found Osel to be pretty bland and uninspiring, but I never imagined he could be a sexual predator on the level of Sogyal. I can't say I'm surprised in hindsight, but it's really demoralizing to know that he couldn't rise to the occasion and not fall into the same darkness of his father. Ugh. I'm just glad I met ChNN and a few other teachers I can really trust and confide in and never went deeper into Shambhala. Feeling really sad for some of my friends who are in deep, and I'm not even sure how to reach out to them as I'm worried some will simply lash out and say that the women didn't understand, or that pure vision must be cultivated, or some other nonsense.

Grigoris said:
You gonna keep that baby or are you gonna throw it out with the bath water?  Coz if you are...

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty clear now that Shambhala International, along with Rigpa, etc., are toxic organizations from which new students should be discouraged. This is instructive:
“Our lineage is led by human Sakyongs. They have offered us profound teachings, and as humans they can cause harm,”
Stay very far away from this shite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
smcj said:
It seems obvious to me that any Lama at the head of a sizeable community who was intending to practice HYT with a consort would easily be able to select and approach a potential candidate (or even more than one) , train them, empower them, explain the purpose and benefits of such practice and in a totally consensual but private manner
Highest Yoga Tantra is a classification which incorporates 3 types of tantras. Karmamudra is a specific practice that looks like two people having sex.

It should be said that in order to accomplish karmamudra there are specific yogic accomplishments that the male should be able to demonstrate. If women knew what that was, and insisted he show proof he could do karmamudra beforehand, then there would be a whole lot less of this pretext being used.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the requirements for karmamudra is that both partners should be experienced in creation and completion stage practice to a very high degree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
smcj said:
I cannot say whether they agree as regards Sogyal as I cannot discern what DJK's position is
His position is twofold:
1. Sogyal R’s students (most likely) do not have binding samaya with Sogyal R because of multiple reasons. So in his case the issue is moot.
2. However if they actually had formed authentic samaya, then they would have committed themselves to seeing everything he did as pure. This is a necessity component of HYT and not subject to western cultural review.

That being the case, and given the rampant abuse of that idea as a pretext for abuse, maybe best to not teach or practice HYT in the West. There aren’t enough highly realized lamas around anyway so that it can be done without double-think anyways.

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually no explicit samaya to regard all of one’s guru’s actions as pure.

It is a training, not a commitment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
With respect to the branch downfalls, the first branch downfall is having sexual intercourse with a women or man who does not possess samaya, that is, someone who is unripened by empowerment, or someone who has broken their samaya.

sillyrabbit said:
All the sources I can find connect this downfall to activities related to a certain practice, not in general. Is this your way of saying that the certain practice should be constant or is it really this confusing...?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not confusing at all. The first branch samaya could not be more clear. This is why I made the distinction that I did -- relying on an unripened partners for karmamudra practice, which has certain procedures, is a root downfall. Relying on a women or a man as a sexual partner who has not been ripened is a branch downfall.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is this conclusion, which I agree with:
In addition to questioning the Sakyong, there are kusung and other leaders who have been specifically named by women as allegedly participating in or condoning this conduct. KC members, current kusung and several kusung no longer in the community should be interviewed for their knowledge of this allegation. If true, this points to a remarkably predatory, institutionalized abuse of women that should not be tolerated in any organization, no less one with spiritual goals.
And it is true.

Additionally, Osel Mukpo really ought to seek professional help for his very evident alcoholism.

During the time I spent in Dharmadhatu communities in the late '80's and early 90's, I witnessed an amazing amount of alcoholism in the Dharmadhatu culture. I have observed the same behavior in other communities, mostly Nyimgma, including Dzogchen Community (though here it is actively discouraged by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu). Alcoholism is a fairly widespread problem in Tibetan Buddhism, at least in the Nyingma tradition, and it leads to many of the problems we see here. I know of at least three Tibetan Buddhist teachers who have died due to problems related to drinking, including CTR. It is time we acknowledge that in some Tibetan Buddhist communities there is a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. There are at least three translators that I know who are chronic alcoholics.

All in all it is a serious issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Simon E. said:
I meant Malcolm, that part of the 'clan' which is Mukpo Inc. USA.

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually so much bullshit mythology in Shambhala Inc., it would take teams of scholars to unravel it all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:


Snowbear said:
All of us in this thread know what denigrating women means. However, we need to understand what that meant traditionally for Tibetans.

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras and commentaries are really quite clear on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Simon E. said:
He has been raised in the Mukpo clan..with all that implies in terms of perceived entitlement. Its a family firm which is loosely based on selling Dharma flavoured snack food.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans clans are not like Scottish clans with a laird, etc., though CTR appropriated the latter.

The Mukpo tribe, located in Kham, is part of the a larger tribe, the sDong.

Of course, the founder of the Khon clan, Namlha Yuring, tamed all the eighteen branches of the sDong, and made them vassals. This is why the Khon are really the bosses of all sDong, including the Mukpos.

With respect to the Mukpo tribe, all this business about CTR being head of this tribe is nonsense.

Of course, there is a saying about the Mukpos:

"The descendants of the Mugpo Dong race think only of conquering other peoples."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
Pema Karpo cites the following lines of the Subahu Tantra concerning unworthy
actions:
A mantrin should always shun
Offensive speech, slander,
Sexual relations with married women,
Just "married women" here.
...(3) Not to engage in adultery means to abstain from sexual relations
with an inappropriate partner, such as another’s spouse,
whether or not one has taken the vow of celibacy;
Again.
...(2) Not to engage in sexual union with the consort of one’s
master;
Again. They all seem to be saying "untaken" women is fine.


Malcolm wrote:
With respect to the root downfall, to use an unripened women or man for actual karmamudra practice is a root downfall, covered in the seventh root downfall, declaring secrets. Then of course there is the fourteenth root downfall, denigrating women, who are the nature of wisdom. Treating women poorly, not displaying loving kindness towards them, etc., is not only a breaking the fourteenth root downfall, but also the fourth, not to abandon love for sentient beings.

With respect to the branch downfalls, the first branch downfall is having sexual intercourse with a women or man who does not possess samaya, that is, someone who is unripened by empowerment, or someone who has broken their samaya.

Actually, engaging in conduct that contradicts the Buddha's teachings is itself a root downfall, the second.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Snowbear said:
Malcolm, I don't see your reference in Kongtrul's book. Can you quote it?

Malcolm wrote:
Look at the 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For a vajrayana practioners, sleeping with ordinary partners who have not been ripened by empowerment is sexual musconduct

Snowbear said:
Is there a reference I can look up?

In Mipham's case, had these women received empowerments from him?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not clear these women were his vajra disciples. Even so, gurus are not permitted to rape their students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For a vajrayana practioners, sleeping with ordinary partners who have not been ripened by empowerment is sexual musconduct

Snowbear said:
Is there a reference I can look up?

In Mipham's case, had these women received empowerments from him?

Malcolm wrote:
I thought you were quite expert in HYT. In any case Buddhist Ethics by Kongtrul addresses this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
It is, in HYT.

Virgo said:
Oh, so when the Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche pushed that women's head towards his penis and told her to "finish it off" eve though she expressed that she did not want to engage in sexual activity with him (nevermind all the other women's allegations) he was engaging in teaching her dharma?

Snowbear said:
In his eyes, I suspect he may have thought he was.

Edit: no not teaching her dharma...that he was "practicing" dharma for himself.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean he was masturbating with the mouth of an unwilling, frightened young woman?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:




Snowbear said:
I don't think the tantras recognized "sexual abuse." but sexual acts with women are in there.

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras very clearly recognize the existence of sexual misconduct, and samaya breakage through relying on unripemed partners.

Snowbear said:
What do they say "sexual misconduct" is?

Malcolm wrote:
For a vajrayana practioners, sleeping with ordinary partners who have not been ripened by empowerment is sexual musconduct, beyond that, the standard definitions apply. For example, the rape allegation against Mipham would be covered under this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
It is, in HYT.

Malcolm wrote:
In what tantra does it instruct students to willingly submit to sexual abuse?



Snowbear said:
I don't think the tantras recognized "sexual abuse." but sexual acts with women are in there.

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras very clearly recognize the existence of sexual misconduct, and samaya breakage through relying on unripened partners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:


Snowbear said:
Not making a judgement on that, just saying "don't flatter yourselves" by not expecting it in one's teachers.

Virgo said:
But is it a dharma teaching or is it not?

Snowbear said:
It is, in HYT.

Malcolm wrote:
In what tantra does it instruct students to willingly submit to sexual abuse?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
In my opinion, they all do it.

Malcolm wrote:
Even fully ordained Khenpos and geshes?

Snowbear said:
If they practice HYT, they are more likely to be doing it, and probably doing it Mipham style.

Malcolm wrote:
They all practice HYT. So, in the end can we conclude that in your opinion it is just fine that all these sexual predators should be permitted to continue unchecked?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:




Snowbear said:
Because I think it's important not to be too sure that one's own teachers aren't doing the same.

Malcolm wrote:
So on your opinion, most Tibetan Lanas are sexual predators of the Harvey Weinstein variety?

Snowbear said:
In my opinion, they all do it.

Malcolm wrote:
Even fully ordained Khenpos and geshes?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:



Snowbear said:
Maybe they were doing a good job.

Aryjna said:
Why do you insist on littering this forum with aimless crap like this?


Snowbear said:
Because I think it's important not to be too sure that one's own teachers aren't doing the same.

Malcolm wrote:
So in your opinion, most Tibetan Lanas are sexual predators of the Harvey Weinstein variety?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:
Content:
PeterC said:
Is what they teach even the dharma?

PSM said:
A good chunk of it seems to be similar to play-acting. The notion of putting someone in a 'stockade' should be a red flag, especially post-Stanford prison experiment

Snowbear said:
I feel this is nitpicking now. If there were no sexual allegations, you and PeterC probably wouldn't think much of any of that. I don't think this due to Shambhala's "weirdness." I actually think most Tibetan Lamas, even the ones with "wisdom, bodhicitta, and warmth," do the same as Mipham.

Malcolm wrote:
What evidence have you for this? What does “most” mean? 70%, 80%, 90%+?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.

Rick said:
I don't think that's accurate.

It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.

But, ultimately (paramartha/satya), neither dependent origination, karma, or rebirth are seen as true/real. This is true in Buddhism too, yes? Dependent origination, causality, karma, rebirth ... these are all conventional teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
No, conventionally it asserts creation of the world by Ishvara.
Further, not all conventions are relative truths, some conventions are simply the mere relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.

Rick said:
I don't think that's accurate.

It's more like Advaita accepts the conventional (vyavahara/mithya) truth of dependent origination, as it accepts karma and rebirth.

But, ultimately (paramartha/satya), neither dependent origination, karma, or rebirth are seen as true/real. This is true in Buddhism too, yes? Dependent origination, causality, karma, rebirth ... these are all conventional teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
No, conventionally it asserts creation of the world by Ishvara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Rick said:
If true, then that's a nontrivial disconnect between Advaita and Buddhism.

The term nirvana, btw, is rarely (if ever) used in Advaita teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
The real point is that advaita rejects dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 8:53 PM
Title: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:
Content:
Unknown said:
"Another woman alleges that she was called by a kusung at 11 or 12 pm to come to the Sakyong’s suite after a program. When she got there, he was undressed except for a robe. “Then he led me into his room and began kissing me and removing my clothes. I said I could not have sex with him. He seemed stunned. He thought for a while and pushed my face down towards his penis and said, ‘Well you might as well finish this.’ I was so embarrassed and horrified I did it.” (Stories of Women Survivors in the BPS Report).


Malcolm wrote:
http://andreamwinn.com/project_sunshine/Buddhist_Project_Sunshine_Phase_2_Final_Report.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:26 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Was his substance abuse also a Dharma teaching?

Snowbear said:
Of course.

Malcolm wrote:
Of what kind?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Snowbear said:
Second, his promiscuity was a part of his teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
What did his promiscuity teach? What Dharma teaching did it embody?

Snowbear said:
The "one taste" part.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? How so?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 11:23 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Snowbear said:
Second, his promiscuity was a part of his teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
What did his promiscuity teach? What Dharma teaching did it embody?

Was his substance abuse also a Dharma teaching?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another.

Grigoris said:
Yes, that is the typical Protestant attitude.

It seems that the Buddha, on the other hand, thought otherwise: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.099.than.html

Both in terms of self and other and in terms of abstinence from intoxicants and sexual misconduct.

But let us get something straight:  sexual abuse is based on lack of consent (as is sexual misconduct); where, in the opening account, does the writer speak about lack of consent?


Malcolm wrote:
She subscribes to the idea the power differential makes consent impossible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Grigoris said:
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you have undertaken to follow the fourth precept.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Rick said:
Aha, thanks, I hadn't realized 4 was considered an extreme.

Going back to this:
Nirguna brahman can neither be said to exist or not-exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and thus it falls into the third extreme.

Rick said:
But my point is that Advaitins often consider nirguna brahman to exist, indeed to be the only real existent ... but that this view is false.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of convention, It alone is real. From the point of view of analysis it is held to be devoid of existence and no existence as a perceptible object,  it that does not mean advaitans hold bhraman to be nonexistent, they consider it to ineffable, and beyond convention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:
Rick said:
Not sure I get you, Malcolm.

Saguna brahman = Ishvara does not exist ultimately, it only "exists" on the level of vyavahara. It is mithya, a provisional belief/teaching.

Nirguna brahman can neither be said to exist or not-exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and thus it falls into the third extreme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom
Content:
Mantrik said:
but where does it come from?

Malcolm wrote:
It was a term CTR connected with Dorje Drollo.

It has been since coopted to describe unconventional behavior by realized yogins, as well as by grifters who try to bilk naive aspirants.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Advaitin vs. Buddhist takes on awareness/reality
Content:


Rick said:
That said, a lot of Advaitins and neo-Advaitins talk about brahman as if it were real, perhaps even believe it is real. This reifies brahman and makes it sound/feel like a magical fairy-tale universal inherently existing field. Which is not what "brahman" actually points to.

Malcolm wrote:
The above is a description of nirgunabrahman. It does not address sagunabrahman.

Shankara borrowed Buddhist arguments to try and one up his fellow Vedantins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 11:07 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
This statement says it all Yes, I will do this strange thing. It was only later when I learned of power differentials and feminism that I truly understood how totally wrong it all was. And now I am triggered by all things Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently you think the meaning of this statement is self-evident,  but you do not share your conclusion concerning what exactly it is you find self-evident. Care to share?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 10:24 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Sounds like she is accusing his son, Sakyong Mipham, of abuse of women, but what exactly he's ever done, I don't know and somehow find him an unlikely candidate for misbehavior.

I'm not an apologist, but I think one can "sometimes" separate the person from the art or work they produce.  Woody Allen is a pervert, imo, and as much as I detest his character, I still like a lot of his films.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently the accusations are going to drop Thursday, Mipham Rinpoche has issued an apology in advance.

TharpaChodron said:
To the Shambhala Community:

I write to you with great sadness, tenderness, and a mind of self-reflection.

It is my wish for you to know that in my past there have been times when I have engaged in relationships with women in the Shambhala community. I have recently learned that some of these women have shared experiences of feeling harmed as a result of these relationships. I am now making a public apology.

In addition, I would like you to know that over the years, I have apologized personally to people who have expressed feeling harmed by my conduct, including some of those who have recently shared their stories. I have also engaged in mediation and h ealing practices with those who have felt harmed. Thus I have been, and will continue to be, committed to healing these wounds.

As the lineage holder of Shambhala, I want to demonstrate how we can move toward a culture of kindness in line with our legacy of teachings. Kindness can sometimes begin with acknowledging the ways we have harmed others, even if we did not intend to do so. Thus, with the strong support of my wife, the Sakyong Wangmo, I am now entering a period of self-reflection and listening. I have worked with, and at times struggled with, how to be a teacher and a human being. I have found that there is no easy solution to navigating these responsibilities. Like all of you, I am human and on the path. It is important to me that you know I am here, continuing to do my best. We

Above all, it is important to me that we continue to create a caring community where harm does not occur. It is my fervent wish that we be a community that relates to each other with compassion and kindness, so I have offered teachings and written practices to support such a culture. I want to encourage our community to completely immerse itself in caring and kindness. This is not easy work, and we cannot give up on each other. For me, it always comes back to feeling my own heart, my own humanity, and my own genuineness. It is with this feeling that I express to all of you my deep love and appreciation. I am committed to engaging in this process with you.


With love,

Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:
Aryjna said:
There is the argument, which has been mentioned in other similar threads, that you can tell whether something is actually 'crazy wisdom' by the results. If someone is hurt or  driven to suicide for example, it is not enlightened activity. This makes sense of course. On the other hand, I was just reminded of this sutra https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.009.than.html where many monks kill themselves because of a teaching by the Buddha. The circumstances are clearly different, but it seems to suggest that even enlightened activity can in some cases have terrible results for some.

Then again, I have no way of knowing what kind of activity what is described in the post is.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently one of his sangyums offed herself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 4:46 AM
Title: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Tabi: Trigger warning–this is not a nice, devotional story about CTR.
The first time I met His Majesty Chögyam Trungpa Rincophe was at encampment in the late summer of 1983. I was attending a dathün (month long sitting practice) at Rocky Mountain Dharma Center. This retreat is supposed to be mostly silent, but I was never good at holding my tongue. During the retreat, some of my new friends and I plotted a raid on encampment, which was a military-style program that was simultaneously happening on the land. We decided to raid encampment and attempt to steal the flag. Our plan was simple: we could create a diversion and while the attention was on us, our cohorts would sneak around the perimeter and steal the flag. Three of us drove through the tori gates in a convertible blaring Michael Jackson’s Beat It while the rest tried to sneak around and steal the flag. We were all immediately caught and locked up in the stockade. CTR came by that night to check out the prisoners. I noticed that he flirted shamefully with all the women/girls who were in the lock-up and totally and completely ignored me.
But I really met CTR in the backyard wedding of sangha members in Boulder in late January of 1985. I had been prepped by the family I nannied for for weeks in advance of the wedding. It appeared to work because I caught CTR’s eye and he asked me to marry him the next day. Then there was so much activity! We had our charts read by Larry Laughlin who found the most “auspicious” day for our wedding. Given the tremendous constraints of marrying six women in a five months, there was some wiggle room with the dates. The first wedding I attended was Karen Lavin’s. Next was Valerie Lorig Sanford, which happened on May 10th. Then Lady Cynde Grieves married him on May 13, Wendy Friedman was on May 17th, I was the fifth on June 12th, Ciel followed on her 18th brithday, and then Agness had her wedding in December of 1985.
There was so much to be done–especially for me as a new student who only completed through level four Shambhala training. I received stroke, lungta and werma transmission. I read Born in Tibet, and studied the Letter of the Golden Key Which fulfills desire, The Golden Dot, The Letter of the Black Ashe, Sacred World, the Practice of Warriorship, and Court Vision and Practice. I was on the fast track to learning and absorbing everything he’d ever created. I studied the texts themselves as well as the commentaries. Our ceremonies required correctly answering a direct question from CTR and the preceptor, who in my case was the regent. (Mine was the only ceremony with him as the preceptor–people said I should be honored–but I was not.) We were told to study the Six Ways of Ruling in particular, as it was rumored this would be one of the questions.
When I wasn’t with CTR, I was completing my tasks as a nanny. And I was introduced to the Shambhala lodge with a party in my honor. I attended Karen, Cynde, Wendy and Valerie’s ceremonies prior to mine. These all happened at the court in Boulder. We had dinners together where we were taught elocution by both Ashley Playfair and Carolyn Gimian. We had one dinner with CTR and the five of us Sangyum (Karen, Cynde, Wendy, Val and I), where we were served white fish with bones in it, green peas and white rice, and copious amounts of sake. We were learning how to eat like the British–holding our fork upside down in our left hand and our knife in the right to shovel the food onto the fork, not an easy task with that meal. During meals we usually played the qualities game, a parlor game CTR enjoyed.
One day I arrived at the court for a shift and I was told I was to receive another transmission from Marty Janowitz. I assumed this was to be like the others, perhaps he was giving me TGS transmission early. Marty told me this transmission was extremely sacred and was only known to a few close students. He then pulled out a vial filled with a white powdery substance. Marty told me it was ground up vitamin D or something. (I really can’t remember exactly what he said it was). He put a bit of it on the spoon and told me to rub it on my gums, which I did. It was not cocaine. It was part of our job description to always carry a vial of “Tabi” which was the code name for cocaine. Due to his paralysis, CTR only had the use of one hand, so when he called for tabi it was our job to go into the bathroom with him, keep him steady, help him get his penis out before he wet his pants and put the coke on a spoon for him to inhale. It was also our job to keep his nose clean, and as you can tell from the picture, we were not always successful. Later, when I went to the bathroom alone, I put some on my gums. It was definitely cocaine.
This is another secret I have kept for over 30 years. I can no longer keep it. I believe it is not of benefit to anyone to keep this secret anymore. I believe it’s important for the followers of Shambhala to know what really happened in the “inner circle” of the court. We all–every one of us–didn’t know how to say “no” to CTR. We were so busy tripping over each other to do his bidding that we never questioned why an enlightened mediation master would need copious amounts of cocaine and alcohol every day. We never questioned why he spoke of every woman or young girl in sexual terms. It was supposed to be a great honor to sleep with him. No one wondered if his sexual appetite for his female students might be unhealthy.
I started wondering about it shortly after Ciel’s suicide. Could this sexualized idea of women be unhealthy? Could this lack of boundaries eventually result in rage and self-hatred? Why did I think marrying a man with seven other wives, a serious drug addiction, alcoholism and suicidal tendencies shown as severe bulimia would be a good idea? I was 23 and vulnerable. And I said yes. Yes, I will do this strange thing. It was only later when I learned of power differentials and feminism that I truly understood how totally wrong it all was. And now I am triggered by all things Tibetan. I will never enter Karma Dzong again. It’s too painful to see the hero worship and the enshrinement of this deeply disturbed man. And for those of you who might have spent a few nights with him or more and feel they knew all there was to know about him, I ask you to dig deeper. And for those of you who never met him yet still follow his teachings, you might want to ask hard questions of those in the know.
The most shocking thing for me through this whole process of sharing my truth is the sheer number of people who are lying now, and denying that sexualized violence has a negative effect on women. This continued minimization of the real, undeniable scars that are left from sexual assault and harassment is shocking. Shambhala has had choices every step of the way since we have begun talking about the neglect and child rape and abuse that is the legacy CTR left his close students. And this deplorable view of women continues through his sons. Time’s Up Now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It means not mixing everything up like puttanesca sauce.

Grigoris said:
Puttanesca sauce is yummy:  Garlic, tomato, capers, olives and anchovies.  A whores delight!

Malcolm wrote:
Real puttanesca was made of whatever leftovers a girl brought home...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
pemachophel said:
Please listen to Loppon/Malcolm. What he's saying is very true. Posting such materials on-line or in public in general is a breach of samaya and is one of the mechanisms for the decline and lack of efficacy of the Vajrayana in this degenerate age. Also as Loppon said, what others do is their own business (and their own karma). We should not think that, because "the cat is out of the bag," we have license to follow suit. Although the world is "going to hell in a hand-basket," without looking to the right or the left, each of us should practice the Dharma as purely as possible in order to slow that process.

The Vajrayana is a double-edged sword. When practiced correctly, it can quickly cut through eons of sin and obscuration. If mis-used, it can also just as quickly cut through our health, wealth, life-span, and happiness as well as all hope for liberation in this life or the bardo. You can't have it both ways.

This is absolutely no joke.

Malcolm wrote:
And the dharmapalas do punish samaya breakers.

Mantrik said:
I'm confused.Do you mean one should not have practices from different schools, such as Gelug and Nyingma, or even from different lineage masters within the same school - say Dzogchen Rinpoche (Mindroling) and LOTR (Dudjom) ?
Or do you mean that one should not create a hybrid practice?

Malcolm wrote:
It means not mixing everything up like puttanesca sauce.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:



Tlalok said:
Does this prohibition on mixing include supplementary practices as preliminaries to a particular practice, such as more elaborate refuge, intention and dedication prayers?


Malcolm wrote:
There should be no reason to do this.

Vasana said:
The reason is usually the inclinations of differing people. Some people have transmission for higher or more unelaborate practices but may also find useful other more elaborate practices like Ngondro from different traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
You misunderstand my point. The masters of the past have provided perfect practices in each lineage already, with nothing missing. If you are doing some sadhana, fir example, there is no reason to add anything thing to it not already included in that tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
pemachophel said:
Please listen to Loppon/Malcolm. What he's saying is very true. Posting such materials on-line or in public in general is a breach of samaya and is one of the mechanisms for the decline and lack of efficacy of the Vajrayana in this degenerate age. Also as Loppon said, what others do is their own business (and their own karma). We should not think that, because "the cat is out of the bag," we have license to follow suit. Although the world is "going to hell in a hand-basket," without looking to the right or the left, each of us should practice the Dharma as purely as possible in order to slow that process.

The Vajrayana is a double-edged sword. When practiced correctly, it can quickly cut through eons of sin and obscuration. If mis-used, it can also just as quickly cut through our health, wealth, life-span, and happiness as well as all hope for liberation in this life or the bardo. You can't have it both ways.

This is absolutely no joke.

Malcolm wrote:
And the dharmapalas do punish samaya breakers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is very bad, not allowed, and the Dharmapālas of both systems will become unhappy and punish the offender.

Grigoris said:
Just when you thought that Abrahamic concepts about the divine had gone out of fashion...

And over at the opposite end of the scale...





With text as well...

Malcolm wrote:
If people want to break their samaya by posting such things and thus cutting off the possibility that they will realize the result in this life or in the bardo, it is sad, but I won’t participate in such samaya breakage myself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is how we roll in Vajrayāna. If you mix systems, it is considered very bad. The point is to understand how each system agrees with the others in terms of meaning, but practice just that system without mixing other elements into it from other lineages. Even when you have broad heterogeneous systems like Lamdre, which assembles its practice out of nine separate upadesha transmissions, one does not just add the Naro Chodruk system to make a tenth. That is very bad, not allowed, and the Dharmapālas of both systems will become unhappy and punish the offender.

Tlalok said:
Does this prohibition on mixing include supplementary practices as preliminaries to a particular practice, such as more elaborate refuge, intention and dedication prayers?


Malcolm wrote:
There should be no reason to do this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I don’t think you’re incorrect on that point.

My point is, who would trump get replaced with? Only another bush, obama, or clinton?

Yea people like Bernie Sanders, Cynthia McKinney, Ron Paul, and Ralph Nader might be a little better than all of the above; but I still think we’re going to have to do even better than that, to slow down the crash course that we’re on. Perhaps as Dharma practitioners, or aspiring ones, leaving politics alone altogether for now is the best course.

Or mostly focus on the issues that I mentioned in my previous post.

Malcolm wrote:
The reality is that we have to curb the power of the presidency. It has become unbalanced. This is the problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: So, Anthony Bourdain...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, he was offed by Hillary and Harvey Weinstein, according to the internet..,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2018 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Shentong view
Content:
Dharmasherab said:
Which schools of Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana share the Shentong view?

Malcolm wrote:
Karma Kagyu and Jonang, with some adherents in Nyingma too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2018 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But one way to start might be to stop the hysterical attacks on Trump.

Malcolm wrote:
Attacks on Trump are justified. The man is a fascist and he is systematically destroying the US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 23rd, 2018 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Here we go back on topic. Dzogchen without Buddhism, without an unbroken lineage of realization, transmission and practice is populated by demons and will break your heart, your mind and ruin your life.

Malcolm wrote:
Or it is a car without an engine.
The interesting thing about the flintstone's car is that there is nothing to prevent the rear roller from falling of the frame...kind of like Dzogchen without Buddhism...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 23rd, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Big messages to deplorables ???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1009916650622251009


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 22nd, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel (Engaged)
Content:
egon said:
Hello everyone! I'm pretty active on DWE and I've registered here at DWM in an effort to explore the Mahayana tradition... which I only have a very basic understanding of.  My practice is only a few months old, so really I only have a basic understanding of the whole shebang.  Mostly modern Insight movement stuff, but I'm curious and open-minded.  I didn't register in DWM to talk about DWE but I saw this thread and now here I am.

So, I'd like to invite everyone to give DWE a try if you're interested in social and ecological engagement. If you've visited and made up your mind, you might have a different experience. If you haven't, maybe now is the time.  And maybe not!  All good in the hood. I'd like to address one concern that's been addressed in this thread:

Malcolm wrote:
Far as I can tell, the place is filled with the Buddhist version of the alt-right. Wankers.

egon said:
I am completely unfamiliar with retrofuturist's ideas, so please forgive me my ignorance. However, the small but active DWE community doesn't seem to espouse any alt-right views in the slightest. In fact, very little (if any) right-wing ideology is endorsed whatsoever.  If the "Malcolm" that I've quoted above is the same "malcolm" that posted in DWE, I really hope that they give it another try some day.

Ssshhh... don't tell 'em I told you... it's gettin a little stale over there and we need some new voices!



Malcolm wrote:
That was my initial assessment, not my final one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 22nd, 2018 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Content:
conebeckham said:
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together.  There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course.  So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here.  In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts.  That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.

Mantrik said:
Thanks.
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice.  I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists?

Yes,  we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.

Malcolm wrote:
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 21st, 2018 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Here we go back on topic. Dzogchen without Buddhism, without an unbroken lineage of realization, transmission and practice is populated by demons and will break your heart, your mind and ruin your life.

Malcolm wrote:
Or it is a car without an engine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 21st, 2018 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Will america reelect a wanna be dictator
Content:
tingdzin said:
...and not a member of the economic elite, they (and we) have a chance.

Grigoris said:
Trump is not a member of the U$ economic elite???

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Nouveaux riche slum lord who resents the cultural elites who have always dismissed him as inconsequential.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 20th, 2018 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Well my teacher, Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche, gives DI, fourth empowerment, preliminaries, sadhana, you name it.

Actually, come to think of it, he is a big fan of preliminaries and supporting practices for the realisation of Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
So is ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first.  That's what I follow.  He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma.  Many of us have been there, too.  The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it.  I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?

Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not prelims. .

TharpaChodron said:
I'm not saying it's prelims specifically, but as you mentioned the Buddhist teachings are somewhat inseparable from Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, it is also an independent yāna which can be practiced by itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first.  That's what I follow.  He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma.  Many of us have been there, too.  The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it.  I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?

Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not prelims. .


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Bön Sarma
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
H.H. Kundrol Drakpa Rinpoche - 016.jpg


According Jean Huang,

Have unofficial translation as follows:

Bön and Nyingma both the heart of Dharma.
Kagyu is such as the eyes of the Dharma.
Gelug is such as ornaments of the Dharma. 
Therefore I don’t have any Partiality.
H.H. Kundrol Darkpa Rinpoche is non - sectarian, because he was follower of Bön Sarma, but had no function / role for Sakya in his poem , very remarkable.


Malcolm wrote:
Fault of the translator:

The teaching of Nyingma and Bon are the life of the doctrine, 
The mind, the all-creating king, is totally independent. 
The Drukpa Kagyu Dharma is the eye of the doctrine,
which, in general, guide ignorance sentient beings.
The Glorious Sakyapa and Gelugs are the ornaments of the doctrine, 
transforming the appearance of sentient beings whose minds know nothing.
Therefore, there is freedom from bias about schools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:



Snowbear said:
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?

Malcolm wrote:
Good karma.

Snowbear said:
No, in the DC case it's just because of the massive public events.

Malcolm wrote:
It is good karma to attend those "massive public events."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:



Snowbear said:
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.

Malcolm wrote:
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?

Snowbear said:
No. I need a lineage holder.

Malcolm wrote:
So, Tulku Orgyen, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa are not good enough for you?

Or would you prefer someone who caters to your obvious preconceptions?

I think you fundamentally misunderstand somethings about Dzogchen teachings:

If this is practiced, all will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharp and dull capacity.
If one practices, even a cowherd will be liberated.
If one understands the significance of the luminosity of one’s mind
through a direct perception,
the rhetoric of scholars is not necessary here;
just as when one eats sugar,
there is no need for an explanation of the taste of sugar.
Without understanding this, even a paṇḍita will be deluded.

-- Flight of the Garuda, Zhabkar


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:



Snowbear said:
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.

Mantrik said:
If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?

Snowbear said:
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?

Malcolm wrote:
Good karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:



Snowbear said:
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?

Mantrik said:
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.

Snowbear said:
OK. It sounds like Namkhai Norbu is unconventional. I'd like to know which conventional lineage holders of Dzogchen say that.

Malcolm wrote:
Tulku Orgyen used give direct introduction to non-Buddhists whenever they showed up. So did the great terton, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:



Snowbear said:
Who said this?

Mantrik said:
He did.  lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.

Snowbear said:
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.

Malcolm wrote:
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Widur said:
Are there any ways to verify the recognition more thourougly?

Malcolm wrote:
You need to study with a realized Dzogchen or Mahāmudra teacher. Otherwise, you will always be in doubt.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Meditate and grow your ego
Content:
Queequeg said:
Meditation and yoga seem in some cases to inflate the ego. Like a cyst that needs to reach a certain size to be lanced maybe there's art to the practice?

What say you, Dharmawheelers?

https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditation-boost-your-ego-say-psychology-researchers/

Snowbear said:
A well-made point.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all, the author keeps discussing yoga and meditation without defining which yoga, which meditation, and vaguely addressing all of it to the doorstep of Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 8:36 PM
Title: Re: Meditate and grow your ego
Content:
Queequeg said:
Meditation and yoga seem in some cases to inflate the ego. Like a cyst that needs to reach a certain size to be lanced maybe there's art to the practice?

What say you, Dharmawheelers?

https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditation-boost-your-ego-say-psychology-researchers/

Malcolm wrote:
The article is predicated on this misnomer:
"[S]piritual Buddhist practices like yoga and meditation may not do what proponents typically say they do, according to the study authors."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


PeterC said:
If we're talking about Dzogchen, then the answer is; not many. Classification of practitioners by capacity is based on application, not intelligence. Numerous instructions exist offering the same sentiments as the 'old dogs' text.

florin said:
But the capacity for dzogchen is dependent, among other things on a reasonably good grasp of emptiness teachings.

PeterC said:
Yes, but define “reasonably good” in this context...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, inferential understanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.

Grigoris said:
You are going to have to substantiate this, as I have seen you argue the complete opposite in the past and wish to know what the new justification is.

Malcolm wrote:
I have never argued there is Dzogchen without Buddhism. I have argued that one can directly enter Dzogchen teachings directly without first formally declaring oneself a Buddhist. But once one enters Dzogchen teachings, one is defacto a Buddhist since all the assumptions about the basis, path, and result are Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: My new neighbor
Content:


Jim1 said:
Of course I'd feel the same way.

And way to pile on here man. Very Buddhist of you.

Malcolm wrote:
You brought it up. I just asked you some questions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Coëmgenu said:
Then the depictions of gandharvāni or gandharvāḥ as somewhat angelic wingèd people playing instruments is Indic fancy?

Malcolm wrote:
No, there are two kinds of gandharvas, one, a type of demigod, the other, a name for a bardo being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?

Malcolm wrote:
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.

Coëmgenu said:
Is there form in the bardo?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a subtle body. See the Kosha. Chapter three, near the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?

Malcolm wrote:
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.

Crazywisdom said:
I agree. And one point it seems most experienced practitioners I’ve heard have come around to the realization that in the end the result and path are indivisible.

Malcolm wrote:
Basis, path and result are indeed indivisible. This is a key point of Sakya teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.

Malcolm wrote:
The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.

Crazywisdom said:
Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: My new neighbor
Content:


Jim1 said:
Any shred of respect that I had for her is now completely gone.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps they have an open relationship. Maybe she is polyamorous. Maybe the first guy is gay and they hang out a lot, sleepovers even.

If this were a guy seeing multiple woman, would you feel the same way?

If not, examine yourself for sexist attitudes.

And, it is none of your business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.

Malcolm wrote:
The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Triskandhadharmasutra - The Three Heap Sutra
Content:
kirtu said:
This is a Mahayana sutra for purification through confession and prostrations to the 35 Buddhas listed in the sutra.  Lama Zopa says in his instructions that the seven Buddhas of the Medicine Buddha Sutra can be appended to the list of the 35 Buddhas.

This sutra is also called the Sutra of the Three Heaps.  The practice is also called the Confession to the 35 Buddhas and similar names.

Here is one link to the sutra:
http://www.thubtenchodron.org/PrayersAndPractices/35Buddhas.pdf

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
It is actually an extract from a sutra in the ratnakuta collection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Aryjna said:
One of the texts Magnus posted above mentions two different kinds of Mahamudra. http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/jamgon-kongtrul/mahamudra-swift-lord-of-realization

The Dharma is vast and it has many forms,
But the teachings that bring Buddhahood in a single lifetime
Are the two ultimate systems of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen.
The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.


Malcolm wrote:
Sahaja Mahāmudra also requires empowerment, usually termed "the descent of the wisdom vajra." The gradual style of pointing out is appropriate to so-called "Sūtra mahāmudra.," which is mahāmudra in name only.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left
Content:
weitsicht said:
Right now, Tibetan monastics have employment status. They are granted income, bank account, car, mobile phone, pension.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is paid for by their families and or patrons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
weitsicht said:
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not correct to say this.

Miroku said:
Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?

Malcolm wrote:
Which Mahamudra are you talking about? The result of the two stages is real mahāmudra. In any empowerment, direct introduction is given during the fourth empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
weitsicht said:
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not correct to say this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
WeiHan said:
Rigpa in a non-conceptual perception of emptiness which corresponds to path of seeing.


Malcolm wrote:
That is not rigpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2018 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
WeiHan said:
So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...

Aryjna said:
Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.

Malcolm wrote:
Can be, but niot necessarily, and the 17 tantras state one should practice the three inner tantras in union.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Can you explain the Bon position here? I am not sure I understand it, do they assert different Buddhahoods, are simply claim that vehicle below Dzogchen do not lead to full Buddhahood?
From footnotes: Translation and commentary by Lopon Tenzin Namdak, “Heart Drops Of Dharmakaya“

….Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness referred to is that of the Madhyamika view; this is not the view of emptiness referred to in Dzogchen.
Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems. For example, Sakya Pandita was very explicit in condemning Dzogchen as not being a Buddhist view at all. All the Dzogchen texts make special mention of the need to separate out all the other views in order to make clear the meaning of the terms in the context of Dzogchen alone.
At the very beginning you must know the other views, but they are to be discarded as this is the highest and best vehicle. Many Dzogchen teachers at present are teaching that Mahamudra and Madhyamika and Dzogchen views are not different. But this is not found in the literature at all.

Many teachings seem very similar to Dzogchen, but all teachings are bounded by thought. If you go back to their origin there are always precepts that say this is the right way and that is the wrong way. Once you have this background you are bounded by thoughts. But Dzogchen has no background; this is difficult to explain as everything Dzogchen says is for the practitioner with capacity. This difference of view is very important to understand.

Lopon comments that this means not hesitating or meditating, and this is why many Buddhist masters criticized Dzogchen. For example, Tsongkhapa asserted that the natural state in Dzogchen is just like being unconscious. Far from that, this awareness is very bright and clear. But the Indian commentators on the Prajnaparamita, such as Nagarjuna, did not understand this awareness that is present after thoughts have stopped. They do recognise something similar, the undeluded direct cognition of sunyata (void). This cognition is inseparable from its object and undeluded; but it is not the same.

"But according to this system we don't accept any teachings of theirs; we don't think that their teachings are either good or bad—we don't care. Why? Because we are completely outside of the judgement of their points. There is no point in arguing or judging; we don't care. Like the elephant—if he is thirsty no one can stop him from going to the water! All these different views have been bounded by thought and so are grasping."

In Mahamudra, for example, the body disappears and the illusory body is realized. It is not that the physical becomes the illusory body; the physical body dies as in the normal case but the mind realizes the illusory body.

The Bonpo philosophy has a background completely independent of the Indian and is much earlier. Later it found its way to India and the Indians accepted some of its concepts.

haha said:
It can provide his basic assertions. You can check more on that book or on other sources.
Probably, it is uniqueness of the Bonpo Dzogchen as they hold such position. It also shows the different aspects in Buddhist Dzogchen and Bonpo Dzogchen, even though they both share similar terminology, methods and theory. Everyone likes to hold his or her position is correct, and others are mistaken. It is natural.

Malcolm wrote:
The above notes by Reynolds bear errors. Among them, he is mistaken about Sakya Pandita. Sakya Pandita does not dismiss Dzogchen as being nonbuddhist anywhere in his writings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 7:35 AM
Title: Re: Hevajra Sadhana and Bodhisattva Vows Renewal
Content:
WeiHan said:
Hi,

Is reciting and practicing the Hevajra Sadhana, either Unmistaken meaning or The Six Limbs, renews the Bodhisattvas vows?

Thankyou.

Malcolm wrote:
yes, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 7:34 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Yeh, insulting other ones teachers and also here the members in public that should always be avoided, out of respect, so i have learned that by the years. But sometimes it happens.

Malcolm wrote:
I have nothing but respect for Loppon Tenzin Namdak, but I think the Bonpos are mistaken on this particular point. YMMV.

CHNN also considers the result of (tantric) mahāmudra and Dzogchen to be the same, as shown above.

kalden yungdrung said:
That is a different statement, which can be accepted.
In the beginning you insinuated that Lopon Tenzin Namdak was mistaken and so it was.

Malcolm wrote:
You brought it up, not me. I merely pointed out that I think LTN is mistaken on this point in response to your sectarian statement that the Buddhahood of Dzogchen is "higher" than the result of practicing the two stages of Secret Mantra. No Buddhist accepts this point of view— not in Sakya, not in Gelug, not in Nyingma, and not in Kagyu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Yeh, insulting other ones teachers and also here the members in public that should always be avoided, out of respect, so i have learned that by the years. But sometimes it happens.

Malcolm wrote:
I have nothing but respect for Loppon Tenzin Namdak, but I think the Bonpos are mistaken on this particular point. YMMV.

CHNN also considers the result of (tantric) mahāmudra and Dzogchen to be the same, as shown above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that takes three incalculable eons, not in one lifetime.

WeiHan said:
But the point of contention has been whether sutrayana method can or not and not about the length of time each methods will require.

That said, I have been wondering the stance that sutrayana takes three incalculable eons to attain perfect Buddhahood is the view of Tantrayana or that is the view of sutrayana itself.


dzogchungpa said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDNJIRfFNnw&feature=youtu.be&t=919, DJKR quotes the Buddha to the effect that the three incalculable eons required for Buddhahood is actually even shorter than the time it takes for a spark to come out from a fire.

Malcolm wrote:
In a universe where a billion universes can be included in an atom, three incalculable eons can fit in a second. But for you, it will still be three incalculable eons, not the time it takes a spark to jump out of a fire.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:


WeiHan said:
Answer by DKR: Can. There are various methods to attain rainbow body, it can also be attained by practicing six or ten paramitas, even if one practices the Mahayana bodhisattva path, rainbow body can similarly be attained.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that takes three incalculable eons, not in one lifetime.

WeiHan said:
But the point of contention has been whether sutrayana method can or not and not about the length of time each methods will require.

That said, I have been wondering the stance that sutrayana takes three incalculable eons to attain perfect Buddhahood is the view of Tantrayana or that is the view of sutrayana itself.

Malcolm wrote:
Sutrayāna itself.

The point is whether one can achieve buddhahood in one lifetime or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:


WeiHan said:
Answer by DKR: Can. There are various methods to attain rainbow body, it can also be attained by practicing six or ten paramitas, even if one practices the Mahayana bodhisattva path, rainbow body can similarly be attained.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that takes three incalculable eons, not in one lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
bryandavis said:
Greetings,

Malcolm wrote: Sakya Pandita asserts in the Muni's Intent that that Dzogchen is the name of the result of the nine Yānas of the Nyingma school, Mahāmudra is the name of the result of the new tantras. ChNN agrees with Sakya Pandita's perspective on this, so when he states that the result of Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are the same, he is referring to Mahāmudra as it is understood in the Sakya school, not the Kagyu school.
Malcolm, how would resultant Mahamudra be presented in the Kagyu fold compared to Sakya or Gelug? Is this due to using Gompopas four yogas or Ganges Mahamudra upadesha as explanation?

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāmudra as a result of the two stagesgyu in Ka is identical with the above. Sūtra mahāmudra does not have the same result because it is well, sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2018 at 6:59 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
haha said:
Basis of Mahamudra, or Dzogchen is same. Path is different; it is different because of different inclination of sentient beings. Sentient beings have different disposition; so the path is different in that respect.  Result is the same; that is attaining Complete Buddhahood; not only rainbow body. Inclining to different path does not change the base; fruition is just full development of potentiality of the base. (PO)

But CNNR, “Dzogchen Teachings”
The Sutra teaching has never recognized rigpa as explained in the Dzogchen teaching.

....This is why Madhyamika, which is a philosophical system, negates the existence of the Base completely. In Dzogchen, the Base does not mean a concrete object or concept, but rather our real condition.

People who have learned a little about Sutra and then study the Dzogchen teaching often confuse the Base in Dzogchen with the concept of the "base" in the Yogachara system. The Yogachara system uses the term kunzhi, kun meaning "all," and zhi meaning "base."

…the Yogachara scholars posited the kunzhi, the "base of all," where karma-producing seeds, as potentiality, are maintained. They considered that the base exists for this purpose.
Nagarjuna refuted the Yogachara concept of kunzhi and never accepted it. He could not understand the Dzogchen view of the Base, and thus his Madhyamika philosophy rejected that as well.

In Tantra there is the idea that something is transformed into something else, and that concept is fundamental to Tantric practice.
The idea of impure and pure vision is absent right from the beginning in the process of learning about Dzogchen.
Jamgön Kongtrul said that Mahamudra corresponds to the Semdé teachings of Dzogpachenpo. ( http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Mahamudra/url )
If that is the case how can one get the fruit of Dzogchen Upadesh by practicing just Mahamudra(i.e. similar to semde)?

Malcolm wrote:
That Mahāmudrā is not the result mahamudra taught in Sakya and Gelug.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2018 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: TRUCK FUMP
Content:
Dan74 said:
Did you check any of this, Mantrik? At least half looks like fake news to me on a cursory search. I think we should be very careful not to help spread fake news around - it inevitably serves an agenda that is very different to what it pretends to care about.

Malcolm wrote:
Dan, did you read his caption?

Dan74 said:
Meanwhile, courtesy of your friendly local Russian Troll Farm, some click bait posted on frak:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2018 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left
Content:
Virgo said:
In general TB is having a hard time adapting to the West.

Kevin...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree, actually. It is better for the west than Sutric Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2018 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left
Content:
Grigoris said:
The economic aspect is spot on.  Here in Greece if you don't have a sponsor, or an independent source of income, you can forget monkhood.

Malcolm wrote:
The situation in Tibet was the same. Monastics were generally supported by their families. The more poor the family, the less likely there would be a monk in the family.

Poor monks were workers, cooks, stable hands, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
conebeckham said:
I agree-Mipham was clearly not opposed to analysis. Nor was Karmapa Mikyo Dorje, or a host of other Kagyu and Nyingma commentators.   But it's the ability to recognize the limits of such an approach, and to foster other valid approaches, that constitutes those Kagyu and Nyingma lamas.  But that's tangential to this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference was explained recently by HHST at Lamdre.

The example wisdom of analysis is the description, "a moon is something round and white, with a cool glow."

The example wisdom of empowerment is showing a moon in the water.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 8:19 AM
Title: Re: Korean War Over?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
35227998_1697184630402163_765011216757161984_n.jpg (90.08 KiB) Viewed 758 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: Korean War Over?
Content:



shaunc said:
Except of course a chance at peace.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that there is no deal. Kim got to meet with the president of the US without having to give up a thing; while Trump agreed, without consulting anyone, that we were going to cancel military exercises with S Korea, oh, and he got to show Kim a ridiculous movie trailer.

Queequeg said:
One US Citizen won... Trump gets to tweet about what a great accomplishment that he sat down with Kim and got to know him well enough to assure Americans that a deal is forthcoming. The rubes who watch Hannity will all think Trump got the greatest deal ever, and his favorability ratings will get a bump. String enough of these photo ops together and there is the making of a reelection campaign.

SMH

Malcolm wrote:
Not so sure:
Fifth, Trump is a sucker. Kim is not. Say what you will about the North Korean despot, but consolidating power in his vipers’ nest regime, fielding a credible nuclear arsenal, improving his economy without easing political controls, playing nuclear brinkmanship with Trump and then, within weeks, getting the prestige of a superpower summit are political achievements of the first order. Machiavelli smiles from the grave.

As for Trump, the supposed success of the summit after the debacle in Quebec appeals to innate love of drama. He is where he loves to be: at the center of a stunned world’s attention.

But he is also in the place where he always gets himself, and everyone else in his orbit, into the worst trouble: panting for the object of his desire. That’s been true whether it’s the Plaza Hotel, Stormy Daniels and now the “ultimate deal” with Pyongyang. Oilman T. Boone Pickens had the smartest line on this when on Monday he tweeted: “Negotiating advice 101. When you want to make a deal real bad you will make a really bad deal.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/opinion/trump-north-korea-diplomacy-reagan.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion-columnists


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: Korean War Over?
Content:
shaunc said:
So far not a shot has been fired and considering where we were a few months ago I'd have to say that it's not a bad outcome. Of course only time will tell.

Malcolm wrote:
The US got nothing in this deal at all.

shaunc said:
Except of course a chance at peace.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that there is no deal. Kim got to meet with the president of the US without having to give up a thing; while Trump agreed, without consulting anyone, that we were going to cancel military exercises with S Korea, oh, and he got to show Kim a ridiculous movie trailer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Korean War Over?
Content:
shaunc said:
So far not a shot has been fired and considering where we were a few months ago I'd have to say that it's not a bad outcome. Of course only time will tell.

Malcolm wrote:
The US got nothing in this deal at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
florin said:
I have read LTN's arguments on the matter but i am still unclear on  the reasons why he believes that there are differences in results.
Anyway, he clearly rejects the idea that the budhahoods of sutra and tantra are indentical to that of dzogchen.
But he says something interesting about the reason why some might think that tantra and mahamudra is identical with dzogchen. He thinks that it has something to do with the way the rime movement of Kongtrul and Wangpo was influenced by the dzogchen view and how in the end, these days, most kagyu people would present their teaching as dzogchen when in actuality is just the mahamudra of Gampopa, system that  was severely criticised by Sakya Pandita and other scholars.

Malcolm wrote:
Sakya Pandita asserts in the Muni's Intent that that Dzogchen is the name of the result of the nine Yānas of the Nyingma school, Mahāmudra is the name of the result of the new tantras. ChNN agrees with Sakya Pandita's perspective on this, so when he states that the result of Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are the same, he is referring to Mahāmudra as it is understood in the Sakya school, not the Kagyu school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: TRUCK FUMP
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
WeiHan said:
If he can't explain, maybe i can help him. Only Thogal practice which is present in Atiyoga can achieve body of light. This body of light, sometimes called Great Transference body (GTB) is different from the kind that the body just shrink in size or even disappear. "Body of light" mentioned by Sachen Kunga Nyingpo in Chakrasamvara, as Malcolm mentioned, refers to the second type which the body shrink in size or disappeared but it is not the first type of Great Transference Body.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it refers to the first kind.


WeiHan said:
If you disagree completely, then other stances are possible. Other paths such as tantras and sutras can attain GTB too except that they do not mentioned it explicitly. This is the possibility that I attempted to play a role in by quoting chapter 16 in Lotus sutra in a preceding post.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no body method in sūtra, so that result is not available to sūtra practitioners.

Further, that mahāmudra and dzogchen are equivalent is stated by Karma Charmed in his Mountain Dharma:

Mahāmuda and Mahāsandhi 
are different names, but do not differ in meaning.

Many other great masters make the same observation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2018 at 11:06 AM
Title: Re: Boston-area teachings: Changchub Dorje's Atiyoga
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Malcolm what is your take on this?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t know Lama Lena, so I have no opinion one way or another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Marc said:
@Kalden Yungdrung & @Malcolm

Hi guys,
Could it be that we have some semantic problem here?
Do Bönpo, Nyingma & Sarma really refer to exactly the same thing when they speak of Mahamudra ?
As far as Madhyamika is concerned  and (as little as I know) “Bön Madhyamika” is very close / similar to “Guelug Madhyamika”... Hence the strong “critic” from the point of view of “Bön Dzogchen”. However does that critic really apply to the “Nyingma Madhyamika” as well ? Not sure at all...

Could there be something similar going on here in this disussion about Mahamudra ?

@Malcolm specifically:
Don’t Nyingma Dzogchen Tantras ever claim some uniqueness to the fruit of Dzogchen ?
Isn’t it said that 10th Bhumi = “Sutra Buddhahood” / 13th Bhumi = “Tantra Buddhood” / 16th Bhumi = “Dzogchen Buddhahood” ?
Thx

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Marc, there is no result higher than anuttarasamyaksambuddhahood.

The thirteenth Bhumi described in Nyingma texts is not the same as the thirteenth Bhumi described in sarma tantras, where it is the equivalent of the Nyingma 16th Bhumi.

As we have seen above, it is the opinion of Buddhist masters that the result of mahamudra (two stages) and Dzogchen are the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 8:36 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

kalden yungdrung said:
If this is so "correct" as you state that is what i doubt greatly.

florin said:
"In other traditions of Tantrism, there's also something we often call jalu. There are manifestations after death in these other levels of Tantrism where the body disappears. But the method is different. It employs always what's called (sgyu-lus).......

.....But its characteristic of Tantrism where much is said about gyulu (sgyu-lus), the mayic body, the principle here is explained in this way, that the state of consciousness unites with the subtle prana, vital energy, and out of this arises a kind of body made only of prana, of vital energy." CNNr

Malcolm wrote:
This in fact is how the Gelukpas explain illusory body in relation to the Guhyasamaja tradition. The way it is explained in Sakya by Gorampa Sonam Seng-ge is different. Here too he explains the illusory body as the actual transformation of the physical body, not a new body that arises after death. So there is a great difference here.

However, Sachen's explanation does not use the term rainbow body, and uses the term 'od kyi sku, aka body of light.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
It means,that without Thögal one can attain the Light Body?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



rang.drol said:
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?

Malcolm wrote:
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.

rang.drol said:
My memory may mislead me, but if I'm not mistaken I remember ChNN stating that the body of light attained in certain other traditions doesn't equal the rainbow body, which as stated previously is uncommon for dzogchen standards too. Many great dzogchen masters did not manifest rainbow body despite their high level of realization.
So if the result of dzogchen, mahamudra and what else particular vajrayana tradition one reckons to be ultimate would be the same, why emphasize the particular methods associated with it as well as its rather rare occurance?
Also from a dzogchen point of view the base is defined in different ways in the context of trekchod and thogal: from that angle one might as well stated that although the base is the same, the 'depth' (I think the texts talk of gting in tibetan if my memory doesn't fail) of understanding is different, hence the path is different, so why exclude a different 'depth' in the result?

Malcolm wrote:
The Cakrasamvara instructions of Sachen Kunga Nyimgpo clearly describe the body of light as the reversion of the physical body into ye shes.

This is identicle with the way the body of light attatinment is described in Dzogchen tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The emptiness realized by all is the same, the difference is omniscience.


WeiHan said:
The body of light is also realised in sutrayana since ultimate view in sutras maintained that Buddha Sakyamuni has never enter Mahaparinirvana, it is due to obscuration of beings that we see otherwise.

kalden yungdrung said:
Oh that is brand new to me that Arhats can attain the Body of Light without remains.
Change right on from Dzogchen to Sutrayana, guess i have made the wrong choice somehow.

Johnny Dangerous said:
In Mahayana, the realization of Arhats is not the same as the realization of Bodhisattvas, much less a SamyaksamBuddha..howver, both categores (Hinayana and Mahayana) are labelled "Sutra"...so I don't think the above really addresses the issue. Even Mahayana Sutras such as the Lankavatara etc. express that the realization of Arhats is not the same as those who have entered the Mahayana path, therefore, including this argument does not make sense to me, as everyone would agree that Arhats do not share this realization, minus Theravadins. Obviously, on a Mahayana forum you will probably find pretty consistent agreement on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:


rang.drol said:
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?

Malcolm wrote:
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.

WeiHan said:
The body of light is also realised in sutrayana since ultimate view in sutras maintained that Buddha Sakyamuni has never enter Mahaparinirvana, it is due to obscuration of beings that we see otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
No, since there is no body method.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.


kalden yungdrung said:
Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego,  like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order,  the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.

florin said:
CNNr speaking about anuyoga says the following:
"....when they arrive at the ultimate stage or arrival point of their transformation practice, they call it Dzogchen. The ultimate stage or arrival point of Anuyoga, they call Dzogchen. Whereas the arrival point or ultimate stage of all of Mahayoga, that is, all of the path of transformation which proceeds through gradual visualization, is always called Mahamudra. It is clear that this changes nothing since the ultimate point in Mahamudra and  Dzogchen are one and the same thing. But the path taken to arrive there, the method used, are not the same............
......Many people often ask "'What's the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?" Certainly when one has fully grasped it and  finds oneself in that state, whether we call it of Dzogchen or of  Mahamudra, then there's no difference. But we've ahead, understood  that the way of getting there, the method, is a different one. Sometimes we find in the songs, for example of the Mahasiddhas who practiced Mahamudra, we find that they're saying the very same things as Dzogchen. They're saying the principles of Dzogchen. But it's not said that necessarily they're using terms that are Dzogchen or that are necessarily Mahamudra. They may be using terms that come from still another source like the Madhyamika philosophy. Knowledge is always knowledge of the same principle. But the methods, the techniques of getting there, are all different. Nor are we to understand, when we speak of different  methods, that one is better quality, one is less good quality. Nothing of that kind. But it is extremely important to discriminate  and understand the characteristics of particular methods. Otherwise  you can't use them. You muddle them. So here we're talking the  viewpoint of Dzogchen, the way of seeing of Dzogchen, and it says  "Everybody from the very beginning, all beings, ate totally illuminated.........." CNNR-Talks in Conway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Sorry, no valid answer.

Malcolm wrote:
Ask some other ChNN student, they will confirm what I say.

kalden yungdrung said:
Sorry no valid answer again, maybe we should better stop this discussion, guess its better for you.
In the meanwhile we maintain that if the Path is different the Fruit is also different, if you don´t mind it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I am aware of what Bonpos maintain. Buddhists disagree, all of them, including ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Which page please ?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index

kalden yungdrung said:
Sorry, no valid answer.

Malcolm wrote:
Ask some other ChNN student, they will confirm what I say. Right now I am on the road.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:




kalden yungdrung said:
Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego,  like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order,  the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.

kalden yungdrung said:
Which page please ?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



rang.drol said:
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?

Malcolm wrote:
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.


kalden yungdrung said:
Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego,  like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order,  the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.


Malcolm wrote:
This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.

rang.drol said:
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?

Malcolm wrote:
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön
Content:
Summers said:
Was Achi Chökyi Drolma originally a Bön diety? She is depicted in the style of one, which is interesting considering Jigten Sumgön's anti-Bön stance.

Malcolm wrote:
No, she was Jigten Sumgon's great grandmother.

http://www.rigdzindharma.org/achi-chokyi-drolma.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.



Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.

heart said:
Yes, that is a good point. But Longchenpa doesn't really put it like that, he just insist that they are necessary preliminaries,

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
This set of books is about sems sde, and was also written before he met Kumaraja.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.


Malcolm wrote:
This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.


kalden yungdrung said:
Dear Malcolm,

Lets start with that what our Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche states is NEVER a mistake!


Malcolm wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu can also never be mistaken, and he clearly explains that the result of mahamudra and dzogchen are the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: World Bee Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
a-yaksha, because the report was "typically overblown, overhyped sensationalist science reporting" I see no value in the claims of the report,  it is just a way try to get more funding to pester, even vivisect sweet bees.

I did think it was interesting, for whatever bee-son, they discerned a way to get their sucrose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 7:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.


Malcolm wrote:
This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2018 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Sorry for the resurrection of this thread but I recently read this interesting little book.



Longchenpa insist, in this book, that one have to practice these four preliminaries before engaging in proper Dzogchen practice.

1. Impermanence
2. Bodhicitta
3. Yidam practice
4. Guru Yoga

The way he introduce the natural state are with bliss, clarity and non-thought. These practices are also described in much detail. Very interesting book.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because Sem side is the completion stage of Maha and anuyoga. This is also how ChNN teaches the practice sems side in a practical sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2018 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Unknown said:
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is the same, the clear and empty nature of the mind.

The path is different.

The result is the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2018 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel (Engaged)
Content:
Ayu said:
I registered yesterday and haven't seen any altright views yet.

Fruitzilla said:
They are there. Not nearly as much as in dhammawheel though it seems. Just the fact that Retrofuturist has registered himself under the username SethRich and has a conspiracy site in his tagline is enough for me to never ever register there.

This thread has some ( including some Paul Joseph Watson verbal vomit ): https://dharmawheel.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76&start=10

Malcolm wrote:
KIm O'Hara says:
SethRich has now deleted his account and is no longer a member here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2018 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: World Bee Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Today 20 May is a day to appreciate and do what we can to help our busy little friends.

https://worldbeeday.org/en/

Malcolm wrote:
Stop the Trump regime.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Oh you silly boy.

Malcolm wrote:
I would rather be silly than support fascism, under the spell of which the GOP seems too have hopelessly fallen.

Nicholas Weeks said:
EPA Targets Already Depleted Bee Population
Agency Close to Approving Mass Pesticide Spraying That Will Harm Helpful Insects

The administrator of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency is now taking steps that could promote expanding the use of insecticides that are helping befuddle and kill off bees.

Neonicotinoids, the world’s most popular insecticides, affect the central nervous systems of insects, causing paralysis and death. The European Union imposed a partial ban on three neonicotinoids in 2013 because of the harm the insecticides can do to bees and butterflies that pollinate plants. Honeybee colonies have fallen by 59% in North America.

EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt is considering allowing a type of neonicotinoid, thiamethoxam, manufactured by Syngenta, to be sprayed directly on about 165 million acres of wheat, barley, corn, sorghum, alfalfa, rice and potatoes. Thiamethoxam is currently used as a seed coating.

“If the EPA grants Syngenta’s wish, it will spur catastrophic declines of aquatic invertebrates and pollinator populations that are already in serious trouble,” said Lori Ann Burd, director of the Center for Biological Diversity’s environmental health program.

Former President Barack Obama ordered the EPA in 2014 to assess the effect of pesticides, including neonicotinoids, on bees and other insects that pollinate plants. The EPA has been evaluating imidacloprid and clothianidin, manufactured by Bayer; thiamethoxam; dinotefuran, developed by Mitsui Chemicals; and acetamiprid, sold by Nisso Chemical.

Trump met with Bayer CEO Werner Baumann before he even took office, and a former lobbyist for the pesticide industry, Rebeckah Adcock, is now a top official at the Department of Agriculture. CropLife America, the trade group for the pesticide industry, has spent about $1.9 million on federal lobbying so far in 2017.

Syngenta CEO Erik Fyrwald has defended his company’s pesticides.

“There are numerous things impacting bee health,” Fyrwald said. “One of the very minor elements there is pesticides.”

The Trump-Pruitt EPA, which has decided it is OK to use pesticides that cause brain damage in children,  was reluctant under Obama to take action on neonicotinoids. In January, the agency released draft risk reviews of dinotefuran, clothianidin and thiamethoxam that downplayed potential risks of the pesticides to bees.

Syngenta’s proposal was released on the same day in December that the EPA also released new assessments of risks from neonicotinoids to aquatic insects.

The Natural Resources Defense Council sued the EPA and EPA administrator Scott Pruitt in October, saying the agency hadn’t evaluated the impact of neonicotinoids on threatened and endangered species. The lawsuit claimed that the EPA violated the Endangered Species Act by approving products containing neonicotinoids without consulting federal wildlife officials on the potential risks to endangered species.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2018 at 8:21 AM
Title: Re: Deciphering Tibetan Buddhist titles?
Content:


paradox524 said:
Dzongsar / Jamyang Khyentse / Rinpoche

Malcolm wrote:
Dzongsar Monastery, Incarnation lineage, honorific

or

paradox524 said:
Dilgo / Khyentse / Yangsi / Rinpoche

Malcolm wrote:
Family name / incarnation lineage / descriptive (rebirth) / honorific

paradox524 said:
or

Katok / Situ / Chökyi Gyatso

Malcolm wrote:
Monastery, incarnation lineage, personal name


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2018 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: So, Anthony Bourdain...
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Well said CW.
There are Ketamine clinics  popping up after some  amazing  test results  for multiple mental health  conditions.

Malcolm wrote:
Shrooms are excellent for depression, but only under supervised use.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2018 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Awakening in the Bardo
Content:
Virgo said:
Do individuals who awaken in the bardo (or the moment of death) attain 13'th-16'th bhumis at that time or only up to the 12'th?

Thanks,

Kevin...

Malcolm wrote:
total buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2018 at 10:42 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel (Engaged)
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
The emphasis at DWE will be engaged Buddhism, so political and news discussions need to incorporate some aspect of Dharma. The forum is both Theravada and Mahayana, so there will be a variety of views. Some interesting conversations have started. I hope that members from Dharmawheel will visit and share their wisdom.

DS

Malcolm wrote:
Far as I can tell, the place is filled with the Buddhist version of the alt-right. Wankers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2018 at 10:36 AM
Title: Re: World Bee Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Today 20 May is a day to appreciate and do what we can to help our busy little friends.

https://worldbeeday.org/en/

Malcolm wrote:
Stop the Trump regime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2018 at 9:08 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Jeff H said:
I would take this one step further to point out that, personally, I don’t think it matters in the least whether the historical Bhavaviveka actually held to truly existent nature, even unconsciously.

Malcolm wrote:
A point that is systematically missed in these discussions is that there were Madhyamakas who adhered to the position that Tsongkhapa criticizes, they just never existed in India.

conebeckham said:
In other words, a species of nihilism?

Malcolm wrote:
No, such Tibetan Madhyamakas are first criticized by Rongzom for having a realist view with respect to relative truth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2018 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Jeff H said:
I would take this one step further to point out that, personally, I don’t think it matters in the least whether the historical Bhavaviveka actually held to truly existent nature, even unconsciously.

Malcolm wrote:
A point that is systematically missed in these discussions is that there were Madhyamakas who adhered to the position that Tsongkhapa criticizes, they just never existed in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2018 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
I guess it's the karma of the tradition, mainly due to the 5th Dalai Lama's sectarian suppression of other traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to learn some history.

The Fifth Dalai Lama did not suppress the Karma Kagyus and Jonangpas out of sectarianism. He did so because these two lineages were patronized by the King of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong Wangpo (1606-1642), who, along with the Karma Kamstang in general, was himself personally an committed enemy of the Gelugpa school. In other words, he did so in order to defend the Gelug school.

I suggest you do some reading the history of Tibetan Buddhism before making rash and baseless claims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2018 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:


PeterC said:
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so

Malcolm wrote:
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.

Astus said:
Vasubandhu writes about the schism that causes birth in Avici for a kalpa:

"Where does schism take place?
100b. Elsewhere.
Not where the Tathagata is found Schism is impossible where the Master is to be found, for the Tathagata cannot be conquered and his word is full of authority."
(AKB 4.100, vol 2, p 683)

Malcolm wrote:
This means not in his direct presence. The person who went to Avici for causing a schism is Devadatta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:


WeiHan said:
5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.

PeterC said:
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so

Malcolm wrote:
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: authorization
Content:
clyde said:
Malcolm; Thank you. Of course monastic vows are administered (not conferred) by a teacher. And I won’t discuss so-called “secret” mantras or practices.

Malcolm wrote:
I am using "administered" in the sense of "The doctor administered medicine to the patient."

clyde said:
Yes, the traditional way of taking refuge is before a teacher. But a sincere lay person who has studied the Dharma and undertaken the practice can take refuge with or without a teacher, authorized or not. Taking refuge is an act of commitment by the person, not the teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
This is certainly fine in the case of a lay person, but it will not work for monastic ordination, nor for secret mantra.

clyde said:
Let’s say a sincere student takes refuge with a skillful teacher whom they believe to be authorized (whatever that may mean) and years later discovers that their teacher was not authorized. What of that student and their years of practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Any lay person who has received refuge vows can confer them, since this mode of conferring refuge vows is one of the preliminaries of monastic ordination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Yudronma safe or not?
Content:
Mantrik said:
Sorry to reawaken an old thread, but I have a relevant question.
Yudronma has an oracle.........I've seen a video of the oracle at Nechung Monastery.
Is she enlightened?
If so, how can she have an oracle?
Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Yudronma is a mundane emanation of Vajrayogini.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
I found The Two Truths Debate to be more accessible and modern. What's your view of that if you've read it?

Malcolm wrote:
Sonam Thakchoe does not really make an effort to understand Gorampa, he is mostly interested in making an apology for Lama Tsongkhapa's views.

Norwegian said:
Malcolm, do you know how this publication compares to Cabezón's publication?

Gorampa's " Distinguishing the Views: Moon Rays Illuminating the Crucial Points of the Excellent Vehicle ", translated by Khenpo Jamyang Tenzin and Pauline Westwood of the Chödung Karmo Translation Group.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/993762326X/

Malcolm wrote:
have not read it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/freedom-extremes

Tsongkhapafan said:
Thanks, I saw this book and bought it some time ago but didn't find it to be a very user friendly format...

Malcolm wrote:
Guess I should revisit my translation and publish it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
I found The Two Truths Debate to be more accessible and modern. What's your view of that if you've read it?

Malcolm wrote:
Sonam Thakchoe does not really make an effort to understand Gorampa, he is mostly interested in making an apology for Lama Tsongkhapa's views.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
It was actually a very specific question: How to Gelugpas deal with Mipham? His arguments are very specific, I assume their responses are also very specific.

Bristollad said:
In my experience, the Gelug school doesn't deal with Mipham.  He simply isn't studied at an institutional level.

For individuals, some try to ignore, some try to incorporate, some try to refute, some conclude Tsongkhapa's position was completely wrong and start studying Dzogchen or whatever. The Geshes I study with, if asked say that they haven't studied it and so can't give an opinion - at most, they say it's contrary to Tsongkhapa and Gelug explanations.  Our Geshe from Sera Je is far more concerned with refuting particular points of explanation that differentiate Sera Je from Sera Mey or Drepung Loseling and Drepung Gomang.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Thanks for this, I also haven't come across Mipham or Gorampa's criticisms of Je Tsongkhapa but it would be interesting to know what they are and to attempt to formulate a refutation in the same way that the Prasangika view is arrived at by understanding what is flawed in the understandings of the lower schools. Please note I'm not saying that these refutations are incorrect; I'm not familiar with them so I cannot say one way or the other.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/freedom-extremes


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: authorization
Content:
clyde said:
I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow ) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma,  vows are solemn commitments, pledges, and promises made during ordination rites in the presence of a master, who acknowledges one’s promises and confers the desired level of vows.

clyde said:
As I noted in an earlier post, I understand the value of making vows before a teacher and sangha, but what do you mean by “confers”? In what way does a teacher confer a vow upon a student?

Malcolm wrote:
For example, when going for refuge, the student repeats the formula of going for refuge three times after the teacher. The teacher then explains the vows and commitments of going for refuge, and in this way the student formally becomes a follower of Buddhadharma and also received lay vows.

Monastic vows, bodhisattva vows, and the vows of secret mantra are administered the same way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
It was actually a very specific question: How to Gelugpas deal with Mipham? His arguments are very specific, I assume their responses are also very specific.

Malcolm wrote:
Just as they never mounted an effective defense against Gorampa, they never mounted an effective defense against Mipham.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: authorization
Content:
clyde said:
I meant “vow” as “a solemn promise, pledge, or personal commitment”. (See: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vow ) What do you mean by “vow”?

My original questions about authorization wasn’t restricted to vows, but to all practices (e.g. - meditation practices, etc.). And as I reflect on this, I wonder about Dharma friends, even on forums, who assist (teach) others.

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma,  vows are solemn commitments, pledges, and promises made during ordination rites in the presence of a master, who acknowledges one’s promises and confers the desired level of vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Vajra Hell
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
This may be the state; from page 66 of Words:
1.1.8 The Hell of Ultimate Torment

This is an immense edifice of blazing hot metal, surrounded by the sixteen
Neighbouring Hells. In it Yama's henchmen toss incalculable numbers of
beings into the centre of a mountain of pieces of red-hot iron, glowing
like live coals. They whip up the flames with bellows of tiger and
leopard-skin until the bodies of their victims and the fire become indistinguishable.
Their suffering is tremendous. Apart from the cries of distress,
there is no longer any indication of the presence of actual bodies.
They constantly long to escape, but it never happens. Sometimes there is
a small gap in the fire and they think they can get out, but the workers
hit them with spears, clubs, hammers and other weapons and they are
subjected to all the agonies of the seven previous hells, such as having
molten bronze poured into their mouths.

Lifespan here is a whole intermediate kalpa. It is called the Hell of
Ultimate Torment because there could be no worse torment elsewhere.
It is the hell where those who have committed the five crimes with
immediate retribution, and practitioners of the Mantrayana who develop
adverse views regarding the Vajra Master, are reborn. No other actions
have the power to cause rebirth here.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
So things exist in some kind of Twilight Zone between existence and non-existence.....um, right....that's conceptually elaborated by scholars and unrelated to the experiences of worldly people fo sho!

Inherent existence is how people see things. To put it more simply, they are the things that people normally see.

You're right that perception per se does not prove existence, but valid perception does.

conebeckham said:
Inherent existence is not the object of negation, no matter how you would like it to be.....it’s also not “how people see things,” and perception, whether valid or not, does not prove anything.  It is the mental consciousness which elaborates perceptions and misconstrues existence.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Okay, that's fine. This is a difference in our spiritual traditions so we simply agree to disagree.

Malcolm wrote:
What cone is saying is that inherent existence is not an object that can be negated because it is like the son of a barren women, what is negated is the erroneous perception of inherent existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
One does not negate the perceptions of ordinary people; one leads them, through analysis, to understand the things they imagine are real and inherent are illusory and dependent.

Tsongkhapafan said:
I totally agree.

Malcolm wrote:
At least we agree on this much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
Okay, great. If we let appearances be, they appear to possess their own characteristics and nature which are reliably known by worldly people.

conebeckham said:
No one ever said otherwise. But once any assertion is made regarding ontological status of phenomena, worldly people cling to existing phenomena, and this is incorrect, and in fact, the mistake at which Madhyamaka takes aim.  Not an “inherent existence” which is somehow parsed from the phenomenon itself, but the mere phenomenon.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Denying existence is once again denying the valid perceptions of worldly people. If something is established by valid cognition, it exists and functions.

Malcolm wrote:
One does not negate the perceptions of ordinary people; one leads them, through analysis, to understand the things they imagine are real and inherent are illusory and dependent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
There's nothing about nature that implies that it has to be inherent. For example, emptiness is the ultimate nature of phenomena but it's not inherent or inherently existent. It's ignorance that believes that anything is inherent.

Malcolm wrote:
Then not only are you ignorant of the English language, but you are ignorant of Candrakīrti where, in the Prasannapāda, he states that the only nature is the natureless nature, emptiness.

Then, if it is asked what is this dharmatā of phenomena, it is the essence of phenomena. If it is ask what is an essence, it is a nature [or an inherent existence, rang bzhin]. If it is asked what is an inherent existence [or nature], it is emptiness. If it is asked what is emptiness, it is naturelessness [or absence of inherent existence]. If it is asked what is the absence of inherent existence [or naturelessness], it is suchness [tathāta]. If it is asked what is suchness, it is the essence of suchness that is unchanging and permanent, that is, because it is not fabricated it does not arise in all aspects and because it is not dependent, it is called the nature [or inherent existence] of fire, etc."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It is so beautiful when opponents refute themselves with the Buddha's word.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Firstly, I'm not your opponent. Secondly, Buddha's words require interpretation.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course you are my opponent. Secondly, you are interpreting the Buddha's word incorrectly, as usual.

Tsongkhapafan said:
All this sutra passage means is those who perceive a nature in entities are mistaken about their real nature. It is not an assertion that there are valid conventional natures.
What this sutra passage means is that those who perceive an inherent nature in phenomena are mistaken as phenomena are mere appearances inseparable from their emptiness. It doesn't deny a conventional nature.

Malcolm wrote:
All natures are inherent -- use a dictionary.


Tsongkhapafan said:
Dude, anybody can prove that the nature of fire is hot and burning by putting their hand in it.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they cannot prove the nature of fire is hot with such an experiment. Fire and heat are only nominally distinguishable, they cannot be distinguished as separate essences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
Lack of inherent nature, yes, lack of nature, no. Conventionally things have a nature and that nature cannot withstand analysis, of course, because it's a mere appearance to mind and does not exist inherently. It nevertheless is established by valid cognition.

Malcolm wrote:
The term used by Candra, Bhava, etc., is rang bzhin, i.e. nature. There is no separate term in Tibetan for a nature vs. an inherent nature. Some people translate the term rang bzhin, svabhāva, as internet existence. Moreover, in English, any nature at all is inherent.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Nature, defintion 2:

2 [in singular] the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it: helping them to realize the nature of their problems | there are a lot of other documents of that nature.
• the innate or essential qualities or character of a person or animal: it's not in her nature to listen to advice | I'm not violent by nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The idea that things have natures is refuted by Nāgārjuna in the MMK, etc., Bhavaviveka, Candrakīrti, etc., in short by all Madhyamakas.

A "non-inherent nature" is a contradiction in terms.

The error of mundane, conventionally-valid perception is to believe that entities have natures, when in fact they do not, being phenomena that arise from conditions. It is quite easy to show a worldly person the contradiction in their thinking. Wetness and water are not two different things; therefore wetness is not the nature of water. Heat and fire are not two different things, therefore, heat is not the nature of fire, etc. For example, one can ask them, "Does wetness depend on water, or water on wetness?" If they claim wetness depends on water, ask them, where is there water that exists without wetness? If they claim the opposite, that water depends on wetness, ask them, where is there wetness that exists without water? If there is no wetness without water nor water without wetness, they can easily be shown that wetness is not a nature of water, but merely a name for the same entity under discussion. Thus, the assertion that wetness is the nature of water cannot survive analysis. The assertion of all other natures can be eliminated in the same way.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Conventionally things have a nature. The nature of things is a manifestation of karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Sloppy argument.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Wetness and water can be conceptually distinguished as mere names. From a practical point of view, they are one object but they are nominally distinct.

Malcolm wrote:
Glad you agree, since I said, "wetness is not a nature of water, but merely a name for the same entity under discussion."



Tsongkhapafan said:
In Gone to Lanka Sutra, Buddha says:
Conventionally things are produced,
Ultimately they have no nature.
That which is mistaken with respect to this lack of nature
Is said to be conventional with respect to reality.

Malcolm wrote:
It is so beautiful when opponents refute themselves with the Buddha's word.


Tsongkhapafan said:
This means that phenomena conventionally have an illusory nature, but ultimately they do not. Those who grasp at the illusory nature as inherently existent are wrong, but it is equally incorrect to assert that phenomena have no nature at all, conventionally.

Malcolm wrote:
All this sutra passage means is those who perceive a nature in entities are mistaken about their real nature. It is not an assertion that there are valid conventional natures.


Tsongkhapafan said:
Surely you're not denying that fire is hot and that water is wet?

Malcolm wrote:
Fire is hot because heat and fire are the same entity, to which you have already assented, etc. But you have not shown, nor can you show that heat is the nature of fire, or that fire is the nature of heat since such claims are completely inarticulate and do not stand up even to mundane analysis, let alone ultimate analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2018 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
As Chandrakirti says in Guide to the Middle Way:

And worldly people’s things exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Of this line, Candra's autocommentary states:

"Since the entities of the worldly are established without analysis, they exist, thus everything is established."

The key point here is that the entities that the worldly perceive are not analyzed, and thus in this way, they are established only prior to analysis.

But this is not an argument that conventionally valid entities possess natures.

Indeed, in in the root text, Candra states very clearly:

Likewise, entities lack a nature (rang bzhin) indeed,
but saying "existence" is shown to be the provisional meaning.

And:

The absence of a nature in phenomena
is the so-called emptiness shown by the wise.

Bhavaviveka agrees in the Blaze of Reasoning:

Once it is accepted that that entities do not arise intrinsically (rang bzhin gyis), they are termed "non-arisen." Since the truth is the absence of a nature (rang bzhin med), nothing arises intrinsically (rang bzhing gyis).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
This is quite false. Please provide a citation from Bhavaviveka, Jñānagarbha, etc., which support this absurd claim.

It's not false, Svantantrikas assert that phenomena lack true existence (true existence is existing wholly independent of conceptual thought) but they still assert inherent existence, as all schools below the Prasangika do.


It is false, and you cannot provide any citation which supports your claim from any Indian Madhyamaka work.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Great, prove me wrong then.

Malcolm wrote:
Since you are the one making the assertion, it is up to you to provide evidence for your claim. If you cannot, it is better for you to remain silent.


Tsongkhapafan said:
What do you mean by "nature?" Most people mean something that is intrinsic to a given thing. For example, common people assume the nature of fire is heat, the nature of water is wetness, and so on.

Bhavaviveka, etc., do not accept that things have natures. If they did, they could not be included even in Mahāyāna, let alone Madhyamaka.
Of course things have natures, otherwise you are contradicting the valid cognizers of worldly beings. Valid cognition sees that fire is hot, water is wet, and so forth. If you disagree then as Chandrakirti says, you and worldly should debate on this and we will rely upon the stronger. Things have non-inherent natures.

Are you saying nothing exists and that nothing can be validly known by worldly people (i.e., people who have not realized emptiness)?

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that things have natures is refuted by Nāgārjuna in the MMK, etc., Bhavaviveka, Candrakīrti, etc., in short by all Madhyamakas.

A "non-inherent nature" is a contradiction in terms.

The error of mundane, conventionally-valid perception is to believe that entities have natures, when in fact they do not, being phenomena that arise from conditions. It is quite easy to show a worldly person the contradiction in their thinking. Wetness and water are not two different things; therefore wetness is not the nature of water. Heat and fire are not two different things, therefore, heat is not the nature of fire, etc. For example, one can ask them, "Does wetness depend on water, or water on wetness?" If they claim wetness depends on water, ask them, where is there water that exists without wetness? If they claim the opposite, that water depends on wetness, ask them, where is there wetness that exists without water? If there is no wetness without water nor water without wetness, they can easily be shown that wetness is not a nature of water, but merely a name for the same entity under discussion. Thus, the assertion that wetness is the nature of water cannot survive analysis. The assertion of all other natures can be eliminated in the same way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:



Tsongkhapafan said:
Gelugpas are not crypto-Svatantrikas because they assert that phenomena do not exist inherently, whereas Svatantrikas assert inherent existence conventionally.

Malcolm wrote:
This is quite false. Please provide a citation from Bhavaviveka, Jñānagarbha, etc., which support this absurd claim.

Tsongkhapafan said:
It's not false, Svantantrikas assert that phenomena lack true existence (true existence is existing wholly independent of conceptual thought) but they still assert inherent existence, as all schools below the Prasangika do.

Malcolm wrote:
It is false, and you cannot provide any citation which supports your claim from any Indian Madhyamaka work.



Tsongkhapafan said:
It really isn't. In dreams phenomena have their own individual natures. These natures exist only for the dreamer because they are mere appearances to the dreaming mind.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by "nature?" Most people mean something that is intrinsic to a given thing. For example, common people assume the nature of fire is heat, the nature of water is wetness, and so on.

Bhavaviveka, etc., do not accept that things have natures. If they did, they could not be included even in Mahāyāna, let alone Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: authorization
Content:


clyde said:
A vow is a commitment one undertakes; a teacher can’t give it and a student can’t receive it.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what one means by "vow." In Buddhadharma, pratimokṣa vows, bodhisattva vows, and Vajrayāna samaya are all received from a teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 7:45 PM
Title: Re: Vajra Hell
Content:
Anders said:
AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).

Aryjna said:
Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.

Fortyeightvows said:
I don't have that text available now, but I'll check it out later.
It seems to me though that avici hell and vajra hell wouldn't be the same thing because ordinary people and those who do the five major sins can end up there. On the other hand, vajra hell is usually conceived of as being specifically or only or particularly for vajrayana practitioners who have broken samaya.

Malcolm wrote:
They are in fact the same hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
The Svatantrika Madhyamaka -  which is just below the most profound school in the Madhyamaka philosophy, the Prasangika Madhyamaka - uses a term called nominal ultimate reality. A working definition of the word “nominal” is “in name only,” as in something that is just merely labeled as ultimate reality, without examination. Mipham Rinpoche says that the nonaffirming negative is really nominal ultimate reality, since it does not rise to the level of true uncontrivance.

Anyen Rinpoche, Journey to Certainty, The Quintessence of the Dzogchen View, An Exploration of Mipham's Beacon of Certainty https://tinyurl.com/yalc48ko

Does this mean that Mipham believed all Gelugpas to be Svatantrikas?

Ayu said:
At least the Gelugs define themselves as Prasangika Madhyamikas. Therfore I believe, this whole discussion is in vain as many other discussions of this kind on DW are.  If you search for information about A, ask A and not B who has secondhand information only.

Malcolm wrote:
Sakyas, Nyingmas, and Gelugs all maintain their view is "Prasangika." But Sakyas and Nyingmas vehemently reject Gelugpa views and vice versa, leaving it up for debate as to a) what exactly is Prasangika, and b) who deserves the label.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Crypto-svatantrikas

Tsongkhapafan said:
Gelugpas are not crypto-Svatantrikas because they assert that phenomena do not exist inherently, whereas Svatantrikas assert inherent existence conventionally.

Malcolm wrote:
This is quite false. Please provide a citation from Bhavaviveka, Jñānagarbha, etc., which support this absurd claim.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Phenomena do hold their own nature, but this nature is merely imputed and does not exist ultimately.

Malcolm wrote:
This statement is internally contradictory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 8:30 AM
Title: Re: Big changes over at DW (Theravada) and new forum
Content:



Sādhaka said:
And their polar opposite, the sjw’s, aren’t really any better.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? People concerned about social justice are not better than Nazis and White Supremacists? Get a clue dude. Next you are going to be telling us that some of the right wing marchers in Charlottesville were "good people."


In case you forgot:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
I wasn't precise enough, let me try to parse out the question.

The Gelugpas say: The cup is not empty of its own [conventional] essence [as it appears to ordinary persons], but it is empty of having a truly established nature. (Anyen Rinpoche).

This is a non-affirming negative.

Malcolm wrote:
It's actually an affirming negation, reverse extrinsic emptiness, as Khenpo Appey quips.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Which seems clear. Yet they call themselves prasangikas and [deleted] they do not admit that conventional truth can withstand analysis (which is the logical flaw of the svatantrikas).

So how can that be?

Malcolm wrote:
Svatantrikass do not admit that conventional truth can withstand logical analysis, apart from some early Tibetan pre-Candra Madhyamakas who made this error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
The Svatantrika Madhyamaka -  which is just below the most profound school in the Madhyamaka philosophy, the Prasangika Madhyamaka - uses a term called nominal ultimate reality. A working definition of the word “nominal” is “in name only,” as in something that is just merely labeled as ultimate reality, without examination. Mipham Rinpoche says that the nonaffirming negative is really nominal ultimate reality, since it does not rise to the level of true uncontrivance.

Anyen Rinpoche, Journey to Certainty, The Quintessence of the Dzogchen View, An Exploration of Mipham's Beacon of Certainty https://tinyurl.com/yalc48ko

Does this mean that Mipham believed all Gelugpas to be Svatantrikas?

Malcolm wrote:
Crypto-svatantrikas


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
But still i will find out.

Malcolm wrote:
Not likely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:


Wicked Yeshe said:
But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.

Wicked Yeshe said:
Can you explain why? It seems as if the basic ones are the foundation and samaya is extra. Why is the pyramid upside down so to speak? It would seem that a basic vow not to kill is heavier than let's say a vow not to eat garlic. But theoretically eating garlic can be worse than eating meat? How is it so?

Malcolm wrote:
Its not actually your business since you have zero interest in Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:


Wicked Yeshe said:
But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
Hey! What is this?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaya#Shingon_Buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
Lower tantra samaya.

Lobsang Chojor said:
Are they just the same commitments as the bodhisattva vows?

Malcolm wrote:
basically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
Hey! What is this?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaya#Shingon_Buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
Lower tantra samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:
Motova said:
Why would someone who receives an empowerment and fails to practice and maintain their samaya be reborn in  Avici Hell along with sentient beings who have committed the five heinous crimes?

Malcolm wrote:
failing to practice is not a problem. Failing to maintain samaya, however, is.

You need to review the fourteen root downfalls.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida.

Malcolm wrote:
They did not have samaya in highest yoga tantras since it never existed in Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.

Malcolm wrote:
Every tradition uses precise measurements.

liuzg150181 said:
As in same precise measurements,or different tradition(say Tibetan Vajrayana vs Theravada) uses different kind of measurements?

Malcolm wrote:
They all use the golden mean to determine proportions


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 9:48 AM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:



Mantrik said:
This thread seems to be going round and round.  What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)

Malcolm wrote:
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M

liuzg150181 said:
But i notice that different regions uses different proportions for Buddha statues,no? I find that the different is more prominent if one compares, for example, those of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddha statues and Theravadin ones.

Malcolm wrote:
Every tradition uses precise measurements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2018 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:
Ayu said:
So, it depends on which tradition we are talking about.
In Vajrayana, making statues is a wonderful thing. Tsatsa making is even a practice.

And it sounds rather like a joke, if Buddhists have statues everywhere, but those who made them are doomed? I fail to understand the intention of this teaching that forbids making statues. Sounds rather absurd to me. But I can't judge it, because I can't read Chinese.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.

Mantrik said:
This thread seems to be going round and round.  What are 'properly formed images' as defined in Theravada and Pure Land traditions, please? (This is what the OP is practising.)

Malcolm wrote:
The Pratibimbamānalakṣaṇa-nāma or Characteristics of the Proportions of Images by the master Ātreya is a text which describes the qualities of properly proportioned images, and the faults and consequences of improperly formed images. For example, one fault described is that poorly formed images result in the destruction of the wealth of a whole region; if an image is inferior in width and height, it will cause famines and invasions of the region, etc.

Therefore, we need to defer to the wisdom of ancient masters on such issues, and not our own artistic whims.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2018 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:
Ayu said:
So, it depends on which tradition we are talking about.
In Vajrayana, making statues is a wonderful thing. Tsatsa making is even a practice.

And it sounds rather like a joke, if Buddhists have statues everywhere, but those who made them are doomed? I fail to understand the intention of this teaching that forbids making statues. Sounds rather absurd to me. But I can't judge it, because I can't read Chinese.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. making properly formed images is wonderful. That”s why we hire skilled craftsman to make them. Tsatsas are made with molds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 29th, 2018 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Is Tobacco an obstacle to practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Tobacco is a stupid habit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 29th, 2018 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:
Ayu said:
The Lamrim teachings say: firstly, Buddha statues cannot be judged by outward appearance. Every statue is worth the due respect.
And secondly, it is a very meritious deed to make a statue or paint a picture of a Buddha or a diety.

Malcolm wrote:
It is very demeritorious to make images of the Buddha, etc., that do not correspond to the proper proportions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 29th, 2018 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: is a home made statue acceptable?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, this is s bad idea.


gingercatni said:
Hi everyone,

I have 3 large buddha statues at home and recently I have been wanting to have a female presence on my shrine table. I am only beginning to understand the role kwan yin has and I have decided to add her to my shrine. I don't want a tiny statue as it would look odd next to my very large buddha statues so I've been looking at similar sized kwan yin statues online, very eye watering prices attached to them ranging from $399 to $799 for a 16" figure. So I was thinking about sculpting my own, I'm no artist but I did dabble with sculpting in clay when I was younger. Is it ok to put a homemade image on a shrine table is it disrespectful?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 11:34 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:
amanitamusc said:
There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.

Malcolm wrote:
Doing Shitro for a person near death can either forestall their death, or ease their suffering, which sometimes means dying a little sooner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 11:03 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:


amanitamusc said:
There are many situations  in  any ones death.

Malcolm wrote:
But here we are talking about a Vajrayāna practitioner who deliberately takes their own life...even doing phowa too soon is a fault...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:



amanitamusc said:
I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

Malcolm wrote:
When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.

pael said:
When consequences of this will be exhausted? Can they still achieve enlightenment in some future lives?

Malcolm wrote:
As to your first question, countless millions of eons. As to your second question, yes, eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:



amanitamusc said:
There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

Tenma said:
If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it?  How does it come from suicide?

amanitamusc said:
I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

Malcolm wrote:
When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:
AlexanderS said:
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
Vajra hell.

amanitamusc said:
Would be the same for killing ones parents?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 27th, 2018 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition
Content:
AlexanderS said:
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
Vajra hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You speak with a forked tongue.
This is predicted on your mistaken assumption that Buddhist and nonbuddhist traditions aim to climb the same mountain — that's why kyle termed you a perennialist

Spelare said:
I was tweaking the classic "paths up the mountain" image in a somewhat subversive way, not endorsing it as it is commonly understood.  The mountain I repurposed to refer to the existential situation we discover ourselves and the rest of humanity to share.  Some traditions have well-tested maps and guidebooks.  A live guide is better if you can find one you trust.  But some traditions (or pseudo-traditions) may be so confused as to invert the picture and think they're in a valley instead of on a mountain!  Perhaps you, too, have met people trying to go down into a valley that is actually a mountain.  They're strangely common.

PeterC said:
And you should talk to some professional chefs.  Their training involves spending an enormous amount of time doing menial tasks exactly to instructions.

Spelare said:
I have spoken to professional chefs.  But the thing is, not everyone has to train to be a professional.  Most of us just need to know how to cook for the nourishment of ourselves and whatever guests come our way.  For that, sometimes it's better to learn from someone who has an intimate intuitive mastery of the subject but isn't necessarily part of a formal training program.  We don't all have to attend the Cordon Bleu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
Whereas what I am suggesting is more like an extension of the rimé approach to our contemporary globalized context.  You explore different approaches while keeping an understanding of what is distinctive about each.  And you may commit yourself especially to a particular tradition, as I have.

Malcolm wrote:
This is predicted on your mistaken assumption that Buddhist and nonbuddhist traditions aim to climb the same mountain — that's why kyle termed you a perennialist


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 9:25 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This thread should have been put down weeks ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 8:29 AM
Title: Re: Why Eastern Tibet?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Kathog, Dzogchen, Shechen, and Palyul are all in Eastern Tibet. The two Nyingma monasteries in Central Tibet are Mindrol Ling and Dorje Drak.

The Geluk Hegemony in Central Tibet stifled the other three schools very heavily. In Kham there was more distance, and thus, more life for Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma.

Spelare said:
Thanks, that's helpful.  Aside from the monasteries, was there also a higher prevalence of ngakpas and lay practitioners in Kham?

Malcolm wrote:
Not especially.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 8:28 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:



Kunga Lhadzom said:
Cave men had no idea about God...

Malcolm wrote:
Are you quite sure? And how did you come to this astonishing conclusion?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Aryjna said:
The point is, God, as seen by the Christians, does not exist, as can be proven by very basic logic

Kunga Lhadzom said:
If you were evolved a million times more than you are now....would your logic be the same ?

Malcolm wrote:
Logic is logic, no matter how evolved one is, just as 2+2 = 4 in all math.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: Why Eastern Tibet?
Content:
Spelare said:
Why are nearly all the contemporary Dzogchen masters known in the Western world, not to mention a large proportion of Nyingma and Kagyu lamas in general, from Eastern Tibet?  Especially from the region of Kham, it seems.  There are exceptions, but name a lama in one of these traditions and odds are they're from Kham.

Does this date specifically from the Rimé (eclectic/non-sectarian) movement, whose major exponents were from Kham, or was this a trend even before the 19th century?  I recall reading that Kham has been relatively diverse in terms of lineages for many years.

I'm also wondering whether it's that proportionally more Kham lamas are teaching in exile, due to the burden of the Chinese occupation falling especially heavily on Eastern Tibet?  I don't know if that's true.  Maybe there are other factors I haven't noticed.

All if this kind of makes me want to learn more about the geography and culture of Eastern Tibet.  It would be nice to learn about what seems to have been a veritable crucible of realized masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Kathog, Dzogchen, Shechen, and Palyul are all in Eastern Tibet. The two Nyingma monasteries in Central Tibet are Mindrol Ling and Dorje Drak.

The Geluk Hegemony in Central Tibet stifled the other three schools very heavily. In Kham there was more distance, and thus, more life for Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
He's in good company when we look at what Buddhist tantrikas did from early on.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Buddhist Vajrayāna, and even Mahāyāna, use of nonbuddhist figures was done in the context of conquest, domination and apppropiration, not fitting them pleasantly into a Buddhist scheme. The same applies to Tibetan chthonic gods that wound up as Buddhist protectors.

After crushing Bhairava, Heruka appropriates his garb. This is not borrowing, or even repurposing as PeterC suggests, this is outright subjugation.

Spelare said:
Sure, but that's specifically when it comes to deity cults and their related practices, which is in the imaginal or symbolic realm.

Malcolm wrote:
The subjugation of Mahādeva is a historical fact for Vajrayāna Buddhists, not merely some jungian archetype thingy.


Spelare said:
The lived social reality of human beings contemporaneous to those scriptures seems to have been one of relative peace.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this period was marked by intense persecution of Buddhists by Shaiva kings.


Spelare said:
Meanwhile, it is almost certain that Indian yogis of various backgrounds and lineages learned techniques from each other in an eclectic environment, across sectarian lines.



Malcolm wrote:
This has more to do with a) Ayurvedic concepts of the body b) the fact that Hatha Yoga begins in Buddhism.

Spelare said:
And there still are strong resemblances, in spite of centuries of divergent development!

Malcolm wrote:
The view is different, this marks the difference in result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 25th, 2018 at 7:43 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
PSM said:
Can refuge be taken in such figures if they are understood to be emanations and the Buddhist view is maintained?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 24th, 2018 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
He's in good company when we look at what Buddhist tantrikas did from early on.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Buddhist Vajrayāna, and even Mahāyāna, use of nonbuddhist figures was done in the context of conquest, domination and apppropiration, not fitting them pleasantly into a Buddhist scheme. The same applies to Tibetan chthonic gods that wound up as Buddhist protectors.

After crushing Bhairava, Heruka appropriates his garb. This is not borrowing, or even repurposing as PeterC suggests, this is outright subjugation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 23rd, 2018 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:



Spelare said:
And suppose a formally Christian, Jewish, or whatever person does study Buddhist philosophy and then has a spontaneous realization of emptiness in their direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
not possible. now ask why.

Spelare said:
Actually, though.  There are many people whose adherence to Christian doctrine, for example, is really quite shallow.  Such people don't have a strong conviction in the eternalist view they learned by rote as catechism, so they might be ready to abandon it after their first taste of emptiness.  There are millions of people in our culture who fit that description.  For many, continued adherence to Christianity is a mere vestige, and it doesn't have a determining role in how they order and interpret their perceptual experience.

Malcolm wrote:
The why is: unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 23rd, 2018 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:



Spelare said:
And suppose a formally Christian, Jewish, or whatever person does study Buddhist philosophy and then has a spontaneous realization of emptiness in their direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
not possible. now ask why.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 22nd, 2018 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The second amendment was originally instituted in order ensure the right of southern militias to fetch escaped slaves.


Minobu said:
i always thought it was a snub towards the British who outlawed civilians to have guns during the revolution.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. It was an amendment designed to appease slave owners.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 21st, 2018 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The second amendment was originally instituted in order ensure the right of southern militias to fetch escaped slaves.

The Cicada said:
I dunno, Greg. I mean, it seems like countries with greater gun constraints also have more constraints on other things, too. Aussies have more constraints on both guns and on the internet, for example. I think that essentially equals less freedom.

Grigoris said:
Children scared of being shot dead while trying to learn is not a constraint on freedom?  The only other countries where children fear being shot to death in their class rooms are those populated by "Islamic" extremists.  Let that sink in a while. Young people weren't choosing to lash out in these bizarre ways until recently. What we ultimately have in the US is a sociological problem.
I agree it is a social problem, but it is being abetted by the presence of easily available military grade weapons.

The Cicada said:
Those are good points and I'm not sure I have an adequate response to that. It may be something we all have to consider soon, and it's going to be something that many people aren't going to take well—or rather, rationally—if there are no other answers.

I'm not sure how far this rabbit hole goes. The second amendment is explicitly for the purpose of defending the country and, I guess implicitly, for the purpose of fighting the government itself if it becomes tyrannical. That sounds criminal, but that's the way many people understand it. The irony is that the very thing contributors here are worried about, a tyrannical regime, is the exact reason kooky survivalists go and buy military grade weapons. A good portion of those guys are vets.

Your reasoning here is sound, but the issue itself seems to be a figurative minefield. Obviously the younger generation graduating secondary school and being able to vote will likely feel differently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said

emaho said:
Malcolm, when I have to choose whom I trust, either you or the realized Tibetan masters from whom I have received teachings on phowa and the bardo, I choose the realized Tibetan masters. Deal with it.

The implication of your interpretation is that the most basic teachings you'll receive in every phowa course are nonsense, because they send the students on a million years detour when they could reach enlightenment in a couple of human rebirths. That's just plain nonsense. Insult me all you want. That doesn't change a thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Such courses are not nonsense, but teachers rarely draw out the implications of nirmanakāya phowa to Sukhavati, even though the facts as I have outlined them are clearly stated in Karma Chagme's aspiration and so on.  I suggest you do more research.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 8:58 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:


emaho said:
PS: not saying it has to be interpreted this way, I'm just saying those passages don't neccessarily have to be taken literally.


Malcolm wrote:
And thus begins the program of interpreting sūtras and tantras according to what one wishes they said, instead of what they actually say and what authentic masters such as Karma Chagme state about them:


"The duration of one whole fortunate kalpa Is just one day in Sukhavati."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.

emaho said:
I understood you very clearly. And that is what I refuse to believe...

Malcolm wrote:
Then you refuse to believe what sūtras say on the subject, and in that case, there is no help for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
emaho said:
Sorry guys, but all teachers from whom I have received Phowa and Bardo teachings agree that being led to a pure land is favourable to a human rebirth, including the passage by Thrangu Rinpoche I've quoted earlier:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Nobody said that being reborn in Sukhavati is negative. All that was stated was that it will take millions of human years to attain buddhahood once one is reborn there, if one is an ordinary person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

emaho said:
Why would it take millions and millions of years?

Aryjna said:
http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scripture/file/58-en.pdf

This aspiration prayer also has information. According to the translation one kalpa is one day there. It is quadrillions of kalpas if you add up what is described in the text and possibly much more until you reach buddhahood, though it's not clear if that is human or Sukhavati time, and I don't know if there is different information in sutras or other texts.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why pure land practice also is neither a short nor a quick path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

emaho said:
Why would it take millions and millions of years?

Malcolm wrote:
Have you any idea of how long a day in Sukhavati is in human years? One day in Sukhavati equals one kalpa of the Bhadrakalpa.

emaho said:
In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[5]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or about 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is roughly 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or around 1.28 trillion years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:


Motova said:
What about phowa?

Virgo said:
That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

emaho said:
Yes, but the main reason you want to go to a pure land is not that it's some kind of spiritual Disneyland where you can enjoy yourself, it's because that's where you'll reach enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.

Temicco said:
Whoa, where did you learn this from?

Malcolm wrote:
HH Sakya Trichen, HH Dalai Lama and many others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
smcj said:
Even telling them to focus on an activity deity such as Jambhala is of no benefit, since these activity deities are not complete paths. Only bodhisattvas like Mañujuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on will function in this way for ordinary people who have no regular yidam practice.
If they have “the ring of faith” for the hook of compassion to latch onto that is.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
So, to be clear, the party line is that every being who has ever been liberated has realized the Dzogchen view (which we could say = Prajñāpāramitā = Mahāmudrā, except in manner of presentation and practice; same result, except for the varieties of rainbow body)?  And this regardless of the level of teachings attributed to them in the literature?  So, if they did not teach that view, it was not that they did not realize it but that there was not yet a suitable place, retinue, and occasion?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Every liberated person has realized the absence of self, i.e., emptiness, and in so doing, has ceased being under control of afflictions. Degrees of liberation are determined by remainder of afflictive obscuration one must eradicate.

Dzogchen is simply one path among many to accomplish this aim. As the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:

If someone does not dwell in words and does not dwell in names,
that is Prajñāpāramitā,
the transcendent state of buddhahood itself;
it is obtained with wisdom
and is liberated from all affliction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is just not how things work in the bardo.

Spelare said:
Isn't one's experience of the bardo conditioned by culture and prior training or lack thereof?

Malcolm wrote:
First, we have to distinguish between the common bardo (antarabhāva) teaching found in Abhidharma, and so on, with the bardo presentation found exclusively in the Great Perfection Tantras of the Upadeśa class and their instructions.

Second, the question of near-death experiences will follow after that.

In all Buddhist traditions, the moment of the death (' chi kha ) is a crucial point at which through recognizing the way the one's elements and so on dissolve into luminosity, there is an opportunity for one to recognize one's own state and wake up. All Tibetan Buddhist traditions recognize that this ends when the red and white bindu separate once the inner vāyu ceases in the body. After this is the so-called bardo of dharmatā, which is not a culturally conditioned experience in any way at all.

However, when someone has practiced the Zhitro mandala in this lifetime, it is possible for them to be guided through a process of reminding them of the significance of the experience of the bardo of dharmatā through the Shitro mandala, as in the Liberation through Hearing in the Bardo.

With respect to the first bardo, the bardo of the time of death, they are given instructions, whispered into their ear, from their guru or samaya sibling which helps them recognize the experiences they are undergoing -- this must be done after the outer vāyu (breath) ceases and before the inner vāyu ceases. It is best done immediately after the outer breath ceases.

If they do not wake up then, they can be reminded of the significance of the sounds, lights, and rays they experience during the the bardo of dharmatā case in terms of the peaceful and wrathful deities. However, practitioners of thögal will not require such a reminder, since such practitioners become familiar with and cultivate dharmatā in this lifetime, and in the bardo of dharmatā, are like children climbing into their mother's lap.

If the person fails to recognize the bardo of dharmatā, then there is the section for guiding rebirth in bardo of rebirth.

The reason that we have the Liberation through Hearing in the Bardo and other similar manuals is to provide instructions on these issues.

This is all predicated on the fact that at least for the first three weeks, or 21 days, after the bardo of death has finished, the bardo being has a mental body with all complete faculties and is capable of seeing relatives, family, and so on, once they have been reminded they are dead, they can still listen to teachings, and so on while in the bardo of rebirth until the 49th day, or after the end of their seventh bardo rebirth. However, the caveat is that it is generally only during the first three rebirths in the bardo that sentient beings still have body and memories of their previous existence. After the 21st day, they begin to fall under the strong traces that impel their next rebirth, and turn their attention to appropriating a new birth.


Spelare said:
Since the overwhelming majority of accounts of the bardo are from Tibetan Buddhists (I'm guessing there are also Indian and Bön ones), is it implausible that Christian or other "outsider" accounts would diverge drastically?  Wouldn't near-death experiences throughout history be explicable as bardo experiences?

One of the things that most appealed to me about Tibetan teachings concerning death was that they could account for the afterlife experiences of non-Buddhists, including Christian (i.e. Abrahamic) heaven and hell realm experiences, Hindu lokas, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist teachings account for the death and afterlife experience of all sentient beings, since we are all composed of the five elements and consciousness. But it does not account for the death and afterlife experiences in the terms you imagine. For example, the teaching on the bardo of dharmatā is a unique feature of Dzogchen teachings. If you have never received teachings on it, you will never recognize the bardo of dharmatā since you will not have developed the proper corresponding meditative experience in this life to recognize it— it will flash by in an instant. In other schools such as Lamdre, they have different methods attaining liberation at the time of death and in the bardo, but they do not make a distinction of the bardo of dharmatā, let alone the four or six bardos we have in the Great Perfection teachings.

Hinduism, while eternalist, nevertheless shares with Buddhadharma the concept that liberation consist of being free from afflictions (which they term samskaras) and karma. However, since their view is based in the idea of the true existence of an ultimate self, their ultimate idea of liberation is very different from that of the Buddha. They do not have a concept of the antarabhāva, or bardo. Since they have an eternalist view of a self and what belongs to a self, they never eradicate all afflictions and thus are never truly liberated; and they never achieve omniscience.

The near-death experience Hindus, Christians, Muslims, etc. is what we consider "the moment of death experience." Why? Very simply put, the so-called near-death experiences of people are experiences where consciousness has not in fact left the body since the indestructible bindu in the heart center of the body has not separated into its white and red elements. That does not happen with the cessation of the outer vāyu (breath). That only happens with the cessation of the inner vāyu, and that generally requires three days.

What follows is a reasonably accurate presentation of the now standardized model of Hindu afterlife ideas:
According to the Hinduism, upon death, a soul or Self proceeds along one of the three paths suggested in the Vedas. As death nears and a person begins to lose consciousness, the Self gathers up the breaths (pranas) and the deities (devatas) hidden in the organs of the body, and enters into the heart (hridayam). From there, through an opening in the heart, it travels upwards along the channel of up breath (udana) and reaches the head.
There through an aperture in the top head, it escapes into the air or the mid-region called antrariksham (interstellar space). Breaths and the deities who accompany the Self return to their spheres in the macrocosm. As the body is cremated in the final sacrifice of life (antima kriya), the elements in the body (bhutas) return to the elements in the world.

From here on karma (net result of past actions) catches up. Liberated souls, or those who have burned their karmas and latent impressions, travel along a path called the northern path (uttarayana) and enter into a timeless eternal zone in the sphere of the sun. From there they are led by divine beings to the highest, immortal heaven of Brahman, known variously as Vaikuntha, Parandhama or Kailasa.

Those who are not liberated, but lived virtuous and dutiful lives according to the laws of God, go by another path called the southern path (daksinayana) to the ancestral world located in the sphere of the moon, where they stay until their karmas are exhausted.
Then they fall down to the earth through rains and enter into plants, from plants into food, either as plant food or animal food, and through food into semen and then through semen into the wombs where they are reborn again according to their previous actions.

Now there is a third path, the path to the hell in the subterranean worlds (adhogati) reserved for those who indulge in serious sins and demonic actions. Upon exhausting their karmas they are born as worms, insects and other low life forms.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/death.asp

On thing to keep in mind here, Hindus want to cremate the body within 24 hours of death. Buddhists consider this terrible, since according to Buddhadharma, it takes three days for the consciousness of a person to vacate their body. From our point of view, Hindus do not account for the inner breath upon the cessation of the outer breath. For them, once one stops breathing, one is dead. Their concept of rebirth too, while interesting, bears no relationship with the idea of rebirth or punarbhāva found in the Buddha's teachings, and certainly there is nothing like the antarabhāva, or period between lives.


Spelare said:
Such experiences could be integrated into a teaching that placed liberation as a preferable outcome.  In fact, I think I've heard lamas acknowledge the possibility.

Malcolm wrote:
As Āryadeva puts it, realization depends on view. Further, liberation depends on realization. Thus, if one's view is wrong, one realization will be faulty, and if one's realization is faulty, liberation is not a possibility in this life, the bardo, or the next, unless or until one meets the Dharma and discovers the right view by depending on a virtuous mentor.

Such lamas and teachers, are either naive, or in the attempt to be kind to those who come to Buddhadharma with strong clinging to their past religious upbringing, can actually do a disservice to their students by making such statements. The experience of the dissolution of the body that sentient beings have during the death process are generic, and the hallucinations that people have during this process are irrelevant to the process itself.  See 226-234 of Gyurme Dorje's translation, The Tibetan Book of the Dead: the First Complete Translation.

For example, on page 233, for those people without a yidam, it says "Meditate on the Lord of Great Compassion," which any Tibetan will readily know how to do.  But since Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Shiva, etc. are not buddhas, and are not connected to a Buddhist path through being defined as an excellent yidam, there is no ultimate benefit in telling people to focus on these religious figures during their death process, apart from giving them comfort. Giving a dying person comfort is a desiderata of course, but in this it is merely a palliative, and will at best lead them to rebirth again in the three higher realms. This is not a bad thing, but let us not kid ourselves into thinking such an experience "could be integrated into a teaching that placed liberation as a preferable outcome."

Even telling them to focus on an activity deity such as Jambhala is of no benefit, since these activity deities are not complete paths. Only bodhisattvas like Mañujuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on will function in this way for ordinary people who have no regular yidam practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: Question on the Amitabha mantra
Content:
Jingang said:
Just a question on the Amitabha mantra. The most common one is Om Amideva Hrih. However I also read it by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche as Om Amitabha Hrih.

Is anyone familiar with the latter?

Malcolm wrote:
The former is a Tibetsn corruption of the latter, however it is so diffuse now as to have become canonical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 11:36 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:



emaho said:
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:



same text, p.22:



http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else

emaho said:
Good thing I haven't been speaking of liberation then, isn't it? Seriously, Malcolm, I've been intentionally avoiding this term the entire time.

What I did indeed say was:

Malcolm wrote:
(...) Even supposing Jesus and his mom were emanations of Avalokiteśvara and Tārā, respectively, this does not mean that they were able to teach a liberative path in those forms. (...)

emaho said:
Except that if Jesus was an enlightened being then praying to him in the bardo will have exactly the same effect as praying to any other enlightened being in the bardo.

And later:
Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.
The reasons why I have avoided the word "liberation" is 1. because Jesus himself didn't speak of Liberation, he spoke of Salvation, and 2. if you're being led to a pure land by an enlightened being then that's where the actual liberation will take place some time later, the mere act of being led into the pure land is not yet liberation itself, but it will lead to your liberation. And I'm sure that I've heard lots of Buddhist teachings about the bardo where praying to an enlightened being in the bardo is referred to as a chance for liberation. So actually the Tibetan tradition isn't as nitpicky as you.

You, on the other hand just very clearly rejected the idea of being saved by another being as contradicting the Dharma. But if somebody leads you to a place where you will for sure reach enlightenment that pretty much counts as that being "saving you".

Malcolm wrote:
The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 11:09 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound?  That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced?  That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?

krodha said:
Hopefully "his" name is Papaji and "he's" teaching neo-Advaita replete with all the scare quotes over first, second and third person singular pronouns... because that is what it sounds like.

Spelare said:
Did you notice that the quotation marks expand as the implications of emptiness are more and more fully realized?  If you read the context, the conversation I butted into was about a hypothetical encounter with an apparition in the bardo to whom one prays for liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
That is just not how things work in the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 10:10 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.

emaho said:
???

Praying to enlightened beings to lead you to a pure land while you're in the bardo is one of the standard teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. See for instance this quote:

Thrangu Rinpoche, The First Twelve Days of the Bardo p.21:
We can pray to Amitabha Buddha or Avalokiteshvara to take us to the pure realms, so it is important at this time not to fall under the influence of the disturbing emotions.
same text, p.22:
When we are about to be reborn and enter a new existence, it is best to close the doorway to the womb and to meditate the yidam deity, to pray to Amitabha or Avalokiteshvara, so that we don’t enter the new existence but be led to a pure realm. That is ideally the best thing to accomplish. If we can’t do this, then it is said we should pray to be reborn before Padmasambhava, in the presence of Avalokiteshvara or in a good land where we will be able to practice the dharma.
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/bardo.pdf

Are you saying this is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty clear here one is not being liberated by someone else


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No one can hand liberation to you. The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.

Spelare said:
What if the "other" to whom you pray liberates you not as a reward for your faith but through revealing to you that you were never really bound?  That He is actually the basis of all you have ever experienced?  That "you" are a temporary appearance manifesting in, as, and through Him?

Suppose "you" then ask Him whether He himself really exists, and He confesses that He does not.  That "He", too, is a dreamlike emanation whose role is to guide you to freedom from within your own mind, from which "He" has never been separate.  Before "you" can raise a final objection on the basis of scriptural argumentation, "He" clarifies that "your mind" is also empty.  Through this knowledge, "He" empowers "you" to free "others" from "their" own illusory predicaments.

All good, right?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a good fantasy, but nothing more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:


emaho said:
Also, you will have no problem to believe that he'll be able to transfer you into a pure land when you pray to him in the bardo. Sorry, Malcolm, I really don't see what sense it makes to start some discussion about the question if this is called liberation or not. If one reaches liberation immediately in the bardo or later in the pure land really makes no difference here.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation is defined as being free from affliction. If one is afflicted, one is not liberated no matter what external conditions might prevail or what prayers one might recite.

No one can hand liberation to you. The idea that one can be saved by another is an externalist, eternalist, theistic view. It is not compatible with the Buddha's teachings.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.

cyril said:
I guess that depends on your definition of the worst Dzogchen practitioner. Apparently, receiving Dzogchen teachings and praticing them to the best of your abilities does not necessarily make you a Dzogchen practitioner albeit ofthe worst kind.

A couple of days before we left, Khenpo arranged for his brother, Kyali Loli, to have an interview with the Chatralwa. Loli was neither a scholar nor an accomplished meditator. Anyhow, he had already received Dzogpa Chenpo teachings and had practiced them after completion of his common practices and preliminaries. But when he met Chatralwa it was disappointing for him. It is not because he wasn't doing well with his Dzogpa Chenpo meditation, but that he wasn't even ready to start it.

On that day, one of the most important days of his life, Kyali Loli went to see Chatralwa. Loli was a very courageous person and nothing would intimidate him. So Loli explained his practice, especially concerning his Dzogpa Chenpo experiences, and he requested instructions and clarifications. Chatralwa, without making any remarks about Loli's presentation, said:
"You should first try to say with devotion the "name prayer" of Amitabha Buddha I00 times a day, then increase it to 200, and so on. One day there might be a time when whatever you are doing, you will always be united with the expression of the ''name'' of the Buddha and the feeling of the presence of the Buddha. If that happens, when you die, you will die with the expression and feelings of the Buddha Mind presence of the Buddha. Then, because of your merits and the blessings of the Buddha, perceptions will manifest as the Buddha-field, and your future will be in peace and happiness. Then you will be equipped to serve others".

Then he wrote down a few lines, a quotation from a sutra which reveals the merits and benefits of the ''recitation of the name of Amitabha Buddha.'' Kyali Loli was disappointed because he didn't get any Dzogpa Chenpo teachings, and it broke his proud heart. But, now thinking back, I can understand how these teachings were perfect for him, and how it will be beneficial if he or anybody uses those instructions. It is important for the teacher to be fair, frank, certain, and clear, and for the disciple to be realistic, careful, tolorant, and open, as a line says:
''Having the Dzogpa Chenpo as teachings is not enough, The person needs to become Dzogpa Chenpo.''


Tulku Thondup - The practice of Dzogchen of Longchen Rabjam

Malcolm wrote:
When an interested student does not understand the teachings of Dzogchen, this is the fault of the teacher. On the other hand, it is said very clearly that even someone who merely has devotion to Dzogchen will certainly be liberated within three lifetimes. So I wouldn't worry about Kyali Loli very much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 19th, 2018 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

Malcolm wrote:
Then your bodhicitta is weak.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Wicked Yeshe said:
You can attain rebirth in the eastern paradise of medicine buddha. But it is a lot more difficult than the western pure land. Gives a lot of stuff for thought. Also this world is considered an impure buddha field that can be turned into a full pure land. Potentially at least. Who knows how and when?

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Motova said:
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.

Motova said:
Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nice joke.

Grigoris said:
Ye of little faith!

Malcolm wrote:
Who needs faith when one has the evidence of one's eyes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Trump's Movement to Unilateralism
Content:
Rick said:
Like 99% of Americans these days, I choose my news/opinion sources to support my views: liberal, left-leaning, anti-Trump.

I've tried to include non-left-leaning news/opinion sources in my reading list ... but never really found anything/anyone that clicked with me.

Can anyone here recommend some good non-left-leaning sources (bipartisan, centrist, right-leaning) I might check out?

Malcolm wrote:
Wall Street Journal. The opinion page might make you vomit, but otherwise, it is good journalism. The Economist as well, is quite good; European style conservatism, which puts it somewhere between conservative Democrat and moderate Republican.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:




dzogchungpa said:
Finally, a truly practice-related question.

Malcolm wrote:
Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.

Grigoris said:
I do believe that, for once, he is being serious.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice joke.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
the Mahayoga sadhanas of which are based on the Guhyagarbha tantra.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily, for example, there are sadhanas in the Choling tersar that are based on the Mahayoga yoginī tantra, the Buddhasamyoga Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Motova said:
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 18th, 2018 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha
Content:
Motova said:
How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.


dzogchungpa said:
Finally, a truly practice-related question.

Malcolm wrote:
Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
There are so many missing text books in Buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
Let's see, 108 volumes in the bKa' 'gyur, the translated word of the Buddha...are you quite sure that in 108 volumes there is something missing?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:




Kunga Lhadzom said:
Yes.

Also....there are 84,000  "Gates" (Doors)....and other religions could  be included, as there are so many types of personalities, cultures, planets, etc.   The key is, your heart & intensions .....the "all knowing ones" KNOW your heart & intensions.....


https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=84,000_Dhamma_doors

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not included, since the Buddha did not teach them.



dzogchungpa said:
I have it on good authority that anything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, but “well-spoken” is misapplied by you with sarcasm, so when you use the term, it actually means the opposite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 1:09 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:



Kunga Lhadzom said:
What if you saw ChNN walking on water.  Would you think it was because of his attainments or just something anyone could do ?

Virgo said:
Non Buddhist spiritual practitioners (who have no Buddhist attainments) can gain siddhis.  ChNN is a Buddhist master, so I would think it was because of that.

Kevin...


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Yes.

Also....there are 84,000  "Gates" (Doors)....and other religions could  be included, as there are so many types of personalities, cultures, planets, etc.   The key is, your heart & intensions .....the "all knowing ones" KNOW your heart & intensions.....


https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=84,000_Dhamma_doors

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not included, since the Buddha did not teach them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 1:06 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
Jesus performed many miracles....just like Enlightened Yogis.  So he must have been Enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Siddhis do not equal enlightenment.

Kunga Lhadzom said:
Yes...but Enlightened Buddhas can do all these things, and then some....
Do siddhis indicate levels of attainment or bhumi. ?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Such powers can be cultivated by worldly meditators.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 10:19 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
So, why must we insist so strongly on foreclosing the mere possibility of any non-Buddhist being liberated to any degree?

Malcolm wrote:
One excellent reason might be the fact that the Buddha himself excluded the possibility.

Spelare said:
How do we determine that this is the definitive meaning, and not a provisional teaching for a particular time, place, and retinue?  Who can determine that?

I suspect that there are buddhas other than the ones we've all heard of, who have taught beings far from the limits of the South and East Asian cultural spheres.  Perhaps the notion of lands to which a buddha has not appeared is mere parochialism codified by scholastics according to the limits of their knowledge.

Assuming the realization of emptiness to be a sine qua non:

If there are Mahāyāna practitioners who formally assent to emptiness without ever realizing it expetientially, could there not also be others who realize emptiness experientially without ever formally assenting to it?  In that case, there could be Theravadins, for example, who did in fact realize emptiness fully rather than partially, but who never adopted or defended it publicly.  Why could there not then be Buddhists (or bodhisattvas or buddhas) in all but name who realized emptiness to some degree or fully, without the need for formal instruction?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness realized by śrāvaka arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas is the same emptiness. The difference between buddhas and the former two is omniscience about paths, not liberation. In terms of liberation, all three are equal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
Jesus performed many miracles....just like Enlightened Yogis.  So he must have been Enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Siddhis do not equal enlightenment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Aryjna said:
How is it polemic? I am pretty sure it is consistent with the descriptions of the bardo in Vajrayana.

emaho said:
It's polemic because Christians have forms of mind training, too. They have prayers, meditations, contemplations, confessions and whatnot. Of course there are differences to Buddhist mind training, they don't have the same meditation techniques as we do, but they do have forms of mind training. Of course not everybody practices as they're supposed to, but that's just normal and can be said about Buddhists, too. I mean, just look at us, https://www.facebook.com/jambandsruinedmylife/posts/1827257353973298 The least thing a practicing Christian is required to do is repeat certain standard prayers throughout the day. If somebody does that for years he will have established a habit of praying that will help him in the bardo - if Jesus is an enlightened being. Of course, you don't agree with that precondition, I get that.

Malcolm wrote:
What they do not have is the view of dependent origination and emptiness. Further, mo one can give you liberation, not even the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
amanitamusc said:
There will always be those that believe all religions are paths that lead to the top of the same mountain.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, damn perennialists!

Spelare said:
We're all on the same mountain, whether we know it or not.  Some are climbing it, and others are circling the base.

Some paths are more direct, others gradual, and still others quite tortuous.  Some reach dead ends, which require one to go back the way they came and take another path.

The shortest path is to recognize that one is only ever on the mountain.  Then even a foot that strays from "the path" remains on the path.

Malcolm wrote:
No, diffeeent traditions are actually climbing different mountains, with different bases, paths and results.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
amanitamusc said:
There will always be those that believe all religions are paths that lead to the top of the same mountain.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, damn perennialists!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Btw, Garchen Rinpoche shares ChNN's opinion on Jesus and Mary, too. As does Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. And at least one of TUR's sons. And, at least when it comes to Mary, Lopon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche. I could go on, but of course there is no point. Those who reject these equivalencies/similarities/affinities will continue rejecting them, those who are OK with them will obviously be still OK with them.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Deshung Rinpoche used to offer regular tormas to the Liberty Statue, a small representation of which he carried about with him everywhere.

As mentioned above, the idea that bodhisattvas manifest as teachers to nonbuddhists is not novel. Even the Buddha, the Pali Canon reports, would manifest as a brahmin and teach brahmins and so on. But he was not teaching them Buddhadharma. For example, in the Medicine Tantra, it is reported that when the Medicine Buddha manifested the the teacher Vidyajñāna, he manifested four Vidyajñānas, who were each perceived by the four retinue— devas, rishis, tīrthikas, and buddhists— to be teaching the medical texts of their own traditions.

Even supposing Jesus and his mom were emanations of Avalokiteśvara and Tārā, respectively, this does not mean that they were able to teach a liberative path in those forms. What it does mean is that that beings who were to be tamed by such forms, would be tamed by Avalokiteśvara and Tārā manifesting in those forms to teach them. Avalokiteśvara manifests in the form of a buddha to teach those to be tamed by a buddha, manifests in the form of a pratyekabuddha to teach those to be tamed by a pratyekabuddha, manifests in the form of an arhat to teach those to be tamed by an arhat, or even manifests in the form of a piścaci to teach those to be tamed in the form of a piśaci.

One's ability to meet the Dharma, the only source of liberation on this globe, depends on attaining the eight freedoms and ten endowments of a precious human birth. As Dzogchen practitioners, this should be axiomatically understood. Just in case anyone has forgotten what these are:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Eight_Freedoms

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/%27byor_ba_bcu


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Spelare said:
So, why must we insist so strongly on foreclosing the mere possibility of any non-Buddhist being liberated to any degree?

Malcolm wrote:
One excellent reason might be the fact that the Buddha himself excluded the possibility.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 17th, 2018 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Trekchod/pointing out instructions
Content:



florin said:
Formally a dzogchen teacher would no introduce these when introducing dzogchen teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be silly. Of course they would. It is for this reason that Longchenpa wrote a long commentary on just the eight examples of illusion, the sgyu ma'i ngal gso.

florin said:
You misunderstood.
I see a difference between introducing the examples of illusions as the main and final  point of the teaching and introducing them as a means or as a pedagogical device with the view to help students rest in the knowledge of primordial state.
As i said in my earlier intervention, a dzogchen teacher would use any dimension of understanding  ,whether is sutra or tantra with their examples and devices, to introduce disciples to their real nature. So when it comes  to means of introducing knowledge of the real state nothing is excluded.


There is no splitting hairs here is just offering a necessary  distinction in what constitutes the elements of training in order to be able to develop stability, presence and understand with utmost certainty what the real primordial state is.

Malcolm wrote:
Is the "real" primordial state something other than emptiness free from extremes? If so, is it empty or not empty? If it is empty, is it completely empty, or partially empty? If it is not empty, how is it not a self?



florin said:
I am not going to discuss details about primordial state and what this is.It would mean discussing details of the three transmissions. However, we have different understanding of what primordial state means.I see this as a futile exercise and quite possibly one that would raise the ire of Ekajati. I can't deal with these kind of things anymore.You ask these questions of yourself on the cushion in the process of prajna development to see what's what for yourself.These questions are not for others or for forging a way to a victory in a pointless debate.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a little strange to give advice, and then refuse to answer questions about what your advice might entail. Copout.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Trekchod/pointing out instructions
Content:


florin said:
There is no splitting hairs here is just offering a necessary  distinction in what constitutes the elements of training in order to be able to develop stability, presence and understand with utmost certainty what the real primordial state is.

Malcolm wrote:
Is the "real" primordial state something other than emptiness free from extremes? If so, is it empty or not empty? If it is empty, is it completely empty, or partially empty? If it is not empty, how is it not a self?

The meaning of Dzogchen is not even slightly different than the meaning of the Prajñāpāramitā. The means may differ; the meaning, however, is the same.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
krodha said:
... but look at the massive scale of bloodshed that has occurred as a result.

emaho said:
Hmm, ja, of course there have been horrible things done in the name of Christian Churches, but Tibetan history isn't all lovey-dovey either, and you wouldn't stop being a Buddhist because of what's happening now in Burma.

Frankly I don't think it works this way around. The way it works is rather that the powers that be use whatever ideology, religion or philosophy the populace believes in and twist and turn it so they can abuse it for their own needs. Just look at the ideas of Marx and what that has been turned into in history. The fact that Marx was atheist was no protection against that.

P.S.: just look at the Chinese "cultural revolution" and the atrocities commited in order to "free" people from religion, including the still ongoing genocide on Tibetans.

Malcolm wrote:
This is all completely beside the point. ChNN certainly does not think Christianity, etc., are liberative traditions —— if he did, it would be clear in the Game of Liberation. In fact, in that game, the only way "out" is through Buddhist paths. Arguing over whether or not Jesus was a bodhisattva is fruitless because even if he was, his teachings do not lead to liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Trekchod/pointing out instructions
Content:
florin said:
You are asking sutra level questions (selflessness,illusion,ego, etc...) in a topic with a dzogchen title.

krodha said:
Selflessness, illusion, etc., are core Dzogchen principles.

florin said:
Formally a dzogchen teacher would no introduce these when introducing dzogchen teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be silly. Of course they would. It is for this reason that Longchenpa wrote a long commentary on just the eight examples of illusion, the sgyu ma'i ngal gso.


florin said:
A dzogchen teacher introduces the student to knowledge of their primordial state through the three types of transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
The basis (primordial state, aka the nature of the mind) is without self, is not a self, and does not belong to a self. Hence selflessness is a core teaching of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
it is explained that it is not an object nor a subject.

emaho said:
I know. I'm just not aware that Meister Eckart speaks of this soul's spark as a substance, and just because he calls it unconditioned doesn't mean it has to be wrong or completely opposed to the Dharma, because Buddha-nature is also unconditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you making the assertion that use of the term “unconditioned” renders all traditions that use the term compatible? The sugatagarbha doctrine has a few variations, for example, the Lanka equates it with the all-basis consciousness. As I understand the term, tathagatagarbha refers to the union of the mind”s clarity and emptiness. That union is unconditioned, but the mind itself is conditioned. Just this is the “god” ChNN is referring to, and nothing else, since the basis is just this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 6:58 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This business about the soul”s spark is exactly the atman Buddha refuted. Surprised you don’t get that. There is no dependent origination here, no emptiness, etc, just an assertion of an unconditioned substance called a soul.

emaho said:
Are you saying that Buddha-nature is dependent on causes and conditions?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhanature depends on sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.


dzogchungpa said:
Acharya, I was thinking about this eloquently phrased comment and, as the main pro-tirthika guy on the board, I would like to ask you a question. Consider the experiences ChNN reports here: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=23279&p=349373#p349373.
Why, in your opinion, did he give a flying f*&k about any of that?

Malcolm wrote:
Nyams are nyams, nice, but in the end, not the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 16th, 2018 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If they ask, we can share.

If you don’t discuss the teachings with those who are not interested, there is no risk of being seen as a narrow minded sectarian.

With respect to dhyana and so on, these mental states are not in and of themselves liberative. In fact, without right view they merely create paths of samsaric rebirth. Further, improper meditation blocks right view.




Spelare said:
Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis.  So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma

Malcolm wrote:
This is the best thing, unless they ask.

Spelare said:
I mean, isn't that a little bit at odds with the spirit of Mahāyāna?  Obviously, we're not going to talk about advanced teachings we're not authorized to share with someone who wouldn't benefit from them anyway.  But things like śamatha, for example, can benefit everybody, even non-Buddhists.  Lamas like Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and Alan Wallace have said it would be lacking in compassion not to share general teachings that can help alleviate suffering, relatively if not ultimately.  We are enjoined to rejoice even in the samsaric happiness of sentient beings.
Are other traditions profound? How so? How do they lead to something other than higher birth in samsara?
Even if you don't believe another tradition leads to anything beyond favorable rebirth, you're not going to get anywhere when engaging with a knowledgeable adherent of that tradition if you are willfully ignorant of it.  They will notice when you misconstrue it and rely on strawman caricatures of non-Buddhist teachings, brought out only to be summarily dismissed without serious investigation.  If you have actually studied different systems with sincerity and are still convinced that only Buddhist vehicles are valid, and that of those Atiyoga is the undisputed pinnacle, then they will respect your judgment more than if you come across as a narrow sectarian.
The only thing similar between Buddhadharma and other traditions is that we all emphasize compassion; but even here, the compassion of other traditions is limited in its scope.
I think the cultivation of attention, along the lines of śamatha, has parallels in the Hindu, Christian, and Sufi traditions; perhaps in others.  Nowadays it is taught even in secular contexts.  Not that these approaches are in every respect identical, but that ethically neutral meditative practice is fairly universal in the major world tradtions.  Someone who has cultivated their attention well, even if in a non-Buddhist context, might be better prepared to receive the View.  That compassion you mentioned couldn't hurt either, even if it isn't Great Compassion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 15th, 2018 at 8:32 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
Virgo said:
Guys this is all tirthika stuff, a serious waste of time.  Wouldn't we better off talking about something more relevant to our lives like was Rush more of a progressive rock band or a more of a metal band, in your opinion?  I think that would be more of a stimulating conversation, rather than talking about samsaric pathways.  If it leads to rebirth, it is just uninteresting.

Kevin...

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with Dzogchungpa, he is the main pro-tīrthika guy on the board.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 15th, 2018 at 8:10 AM
Title: Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Content:
smcj said:
,,,not to mention his affinity for the apophatic approach. None of this resembles Dzogchen or Buddhism in general in any way.
Nāgārjuna isn’t apophatic?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


