﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are using the term from "expedient means," a rather dated translation of the term "upāya-kauśalya."

Queequeg said:
lol. no scorn. you though...

how do you tranlate upaya?

Malcolm wrote:
Method, means. That is all it means. Nothing more. See my edit of last post.

You guys are using translations that are pretty ancient, superseded by improvements in understanding in all areas of Buddhist studies. It is a problem not just for you, but for example, for everyone who uses the term "enlightenment" for bodhi. It is just not right on any level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are misusing the word "expedient," as I already pointed out above.

Queequeg said:
Inconclusive. We're still working that out.

Malcolm wrote:
It's pretty conclusive, unless you are Humpty Dumpty:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
You are using the term from "expedient means," a rather dated translation of the term "upāya-kauśalya."

"Kauśalya" does not mean expedient, it means "m. a kind of pavilion Va1stuv. ; (%{am}) n. (g. %{brAhmaNA7di}) welfare , well-being , prosperity MBh. R. ; cleverness , skilfulness, experience (ifc.) SaddhP. Bhpr. ; (%{A}) f. see %{kausalya}."

The Tibetans translate it as mkhas pa, which means "expert," among other things. "Expert" or "Skilled" in means or methods, in other words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha in Hell is there to relieve the sufferings of the beings inhabiting it in whatever small ways they can.
Buddhas do not absorb anyone's sufferings.

Queequeg said:
Please square those?

Malcolm wrote:
When I give you water because you are thirsty, I am not absorbing your suffering, but I am relieving it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:



Queequeg said:
Formations are expedients.

Malcolm wrote:
This very bad English.

Queequeg said:
Is it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are misusing the word "expedient," as I already pointed out above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not use torture as an upāya. I know you think this is really clever, but it is actually really dumb. The Buddha in Hell is there to relieve the sufferings of the beings inhabiting it in whatever small ways they can. The Buddha of hell is not there to preside over their misery and use it as a "teaching moment."

Queequeg said:
That is a point well taken, and actually occurred to me as I was writing that in a putative form. Thank you for drawing that out.

Retribution is inescapable, but each time we emerged from hell, it was because we made causes to do so. Seems to me there is more in the Buddha's function than merely absorbing the sufferings on behalf of another.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not absorb anyone's sufferings.

Queequeg said:
And that doesn't really make sense. The Buddha could absorb and endure everyone's punishment indefinitely, but that would merely put off the retribution - suspend cause and effect. The karma is not dissipated.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not absorb anyone's suffering.

Queequeg said:
So then what is the function of Buddha in hell? As I understand, its the act of kindness in relieving the other's suffering, which sets an example for others to be internalized and then extended to others, and so starts their long climb out of hell.



Malcolm wrote:
It seems you are conflating the Bodhisattva's initial generation of compassion by wishing the sufferings of other hell beings would be visited upon him with the Nyingma notion that Yamarāja is the Buddha of the hells, just as the preta Jvalamukha is the buddha of the preta realm, Śākyamuni the Buddha of the human realm, etc.

Queequeg said:
In the Jatakas, the Buddha appeared as the leader of his peers in all the various realms, leading by his example.

Malcolm wrote:
The Bodhisattva was indeed the leader of all his peers.


Queequeg said:
Your presentation of the Buddha is a little one dimensional.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty hard to be dimensional on a chat board.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Do Pure Land practitioners go to the court of Yama?
Content:
Jingang said:
Wonderful, thanks. I'll shift my focus away from manis and back toward Amitabha mantra accumulations.

Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings are fickle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: The straying of new sentient beings
Content:
Grigoris said:
Good luck with that one!

Malcolm wrote:
It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.

Mantrik said:
If the number of sentient beings is infinite, and each rebirth is from one sentient form to another, do we need any new ones? Clearly not, nor do we need a 'beginning'.

Will it be like the 'Rapture' at the end of the mahakalpa and after liberation there will be no more left in samsara?  Almost a universal Pure Land liberation without the need to ask?

What is taught about this, please?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen tantras teach that by the end of the eon, when all sentient beings have vanished from all the realms below the fourth form realm, all those realms perish (as in Abhidharma), and in the end all sentient beings attain buddhahood (not in Abhidharma).

As I said, it is a difficult point, not easily addressed in a forum like this. I have discussed it elsewhere here several times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:



Queequeg said:
Formations are expedients.

Malcolm wrote:
This very bad English.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:


Queequeg said:
There is no place in the three-fold world where the Buddha does not penetrate. Even in hell, the Buddha makes an appearance to lead beings to Buddhahood. I have a Tibetan Wheel of Life hanging in my house and I notice that even in the hell section, there is a Buddha. Am I reading that wrong to understand that even beings in hell are not beyond the Buddha's activity?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to the teachings of the Nyingma school, there is a Buddha presiding over each of the six realms.

Queequeg said:
hence, for those beings, even the tortures of hell are upaya, because even that path inevitably ends in Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not use torture as an upāya. I know you think this is really clever, but it is actually really dumb. The Buddha in Hell is there to relieve the sufferings of the beings inhabiting it in whatever small ways they can. The Buddha of hell is not there to preside over their misery and use it as a "teaching moment."

Unless a being obtains a precious human birth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments, there is no possibility they will meet the Dharma, let alone practice, and so on. Groovy theories about the interpenetration of realms are pretty useless in this regard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: The straying of new sentient beings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is one of those difficult points.

Grigoris said:
Good luck with that one!

Malcolm wrote:
It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:


Queequeg said:
I'll take a stab at answering my own question... probably for someone limited by the absolute limitations of arising and perishing. Oh, well whaddaya know? The Lotus is at least partly addressed to Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha who in respects can be characterized by their insights to arising and perishing... And to Bodhisattvas who, though transcending the scope of Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha, still are limited by arising and perishing.

"Takes a long time, but God dies, too, but not before he'll stick it to you!"

Malcolm wrote:
"All formations are impermanent."

-- the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is not convincing. One cannot wish away all contradictions by claiming that everything is an expedient device. The Buddha can no more dismiss the laws of causality than you or I. If someone is born, they die. End of story.

Queequeg said:
In this threefold world, what is not expedient? What is not subject to arising and perishing?

Malcolm wrote:
It seems you mean the term "upāya" by expedient. But you are misusing the word "expedient" in this context, in addition to misusing the term upāya. "Expedient" is not a useful translation of that term. In fact, it is wrong. Upāya means "method" or "means."


Queequeg said:
Expedient:

adjective
(of an action) convenient and practical, although possibly improper or immoral:

Malcolm wrote:
Hell, for example, is not very expedient, since it is very inconvenient and impractical to be stuck there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:



Queequeg said:
Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.

Malcolm wrote:
Everything that arises, perishes. Fantasizing about eternal nirmanakāyas is, well, just a fantasy. There is no such thing.

Queequeg said:
Is this addressed to me? You seem to ignore my consistent use of the term, "expedient".

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is not convincing. One cannot wish away all contradictions by claiming that everything is an expedient device. The Buddha can no more dismiss the laws of causality than you or I. If someone is born, they die. End of story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:


Queequeg said:
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally.

Malcolm wrote:
Not one popped out of a human womb.

Queequeg said:
Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.

Malcolm wrote:
Everything that arises, perishes. Fantasizing about eternal nirmanakāyas is, well, just a fantasy. There is no such thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:


Queequeg said:
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally.

Malcolm wrote:
Not one popped out of a human womb.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:
rory said:
This is where your ignorance of Pure Land and the Lotus Sutra matters:

That's Ch. 25 the famous Kwan-Yin chapter of the Lotus Sutra; Kannon can use her karma to overcome the individual's bad karma, who calls upon her. The Pure Land sutras explain that Amida and Kannon build up huge amounts of good karma due to their vows and when individuals with crap karma call upon them, wishing to be born in their pure land, by karmic transfer those individuals can be born there. That's how it works: via karmic transfer. Now you can do this for others simply by transferring the merit of the pure land practice. So if I call upon Amida and pray for someone's Birth in the Western Pure land, I transfer the merit to them at the end of my practice. Everyone in East Asia does this practice: for the living for the dead for pets...all sentient beings.

Grigoris said:
This does not answer my question.  I asked you where in the quoted section... and instead of (maybe) quoting me a piece from another part of the Lotus Sutra proving your point, you just post some general commentary. Again you need to read the Lotus Sutra, specifically Ch. 16 The Thus Come One's Life Span it spells it out quite clearly: The Buddha isn't dead, and never really died, he's on Sacred Vulture Peak. To the unenlightened it just looks like he lived and died. I'm really surprised to ever see you write such a thing;
His Nirmanakaya died.  Mahaparinirvana and all that jazz. From the time I attained Buddhahood,
...
For the Buddha�s words are real, not false.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/resources/sutras/lotus/sources/lotus16.htm
This is referring to the Buddha's Dharmakaya.  Siddhārtha Gautama died.  According to your logic he could have healed himself (not lacking faith in Buddhahood and all) by praying to Buddha Amitabha, just like you claimed you did.

Again, I do not doubt that chanting and praying can have an effect, like I said:  In Vajrayana we have this notion too.  I just believe that there may be more factors in play, that we are not taking into account.


Malcolm wrote:
Greg, there is little point. While there are certain areas of overlap, for the most part, Lotus Sūtravadins seem incapable of hearing anything outside of their own echo chamber, even our friend Queequeg.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Content:


Queequeg said:
The Buddha's entire appearance, from birth to death, was a show for the purpose of teaching beings the Buddha Path.

Malcolm wrote:
That is part of the Mahāyāna catechism, for sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: The straying of new sentient beings
Content:
Grigoris said:
If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is just one kind of bodhicitta, the bodhicitta of shepherd. The usual bodhicitta one develops in Tibetan Buddhism is the bodhicitta of a king.

What is the difference? Just as a shepherd does not rest until all their flock is penned at night, a shepherd bodhisattva puts off their own buddhahood until all sentient beings are liberated. On the other hand, just as king looks after his own benefit first, and then takes care of the kingdom, a king bodhisattva first attains buddhahood and then helps sentient beings. The first is superior to the second, but the second is more practical for sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2018 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: The straying of new sentient beings
Content:
Grigoris said:
If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time.  There are infinite sentient beings, that means no matter how many are liberated, there are still an infinite number waiting to be liberated.


Malcolm wrote:
Kris's question concerns the Dzogchen doctrine that all sentient beings in this mahākalpa will be liberated by the end of the mahākalpa. There are a couple of opinions recorded by Longchenpa about where "new" sentient beings come from at the beginning of a new mahākalpa, and whether it is proper to say that sentient beings are newly created at all. It is one of those difficult points.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: The straying of new sentient beings
Content:
Sennin said:
New sentient beings cannot stray into samsara.
But why?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no "new" sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV
Content:
Varis said:
How is ancestor worship/placation viewed from the perspective of Mahayana?

Malcolm wrote:
What would be the point? All of our ancestors have long since taken rebirth.

SunWuKong said:
More likely that it's Confucian, and there is plenty of overlap in populations into Taoism, Mahayana, and Confucianism.

Malcolm wrote:
In China, but not in India, Tibet, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 6:28 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Honestly, I think it's about time we all started ma ning up.

Grigoris said:
Mahakala Maning is a eunuch, so unless you have no need for your family jewels...

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, this is a mistake made frequently by Western translators who do not understand the meaning as they have not received teachings on this form of Mahakala. Maning in Maning Gonpo refers to nonduality, and also the fact that it is the source of all the other Mahakala emanations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Gyalpo spirits
Content:



Aryjna said:
The eight classes, or at least most of them, are classified as pretas that move through space in WOMPT. But as one of the eight classes is devas I suppose these are actually devas and not pretas, and perhaps this is true for 1-2 others.


Malcolm wrote:
Lha are not completely identical with devas, just as klu are not completely identical with nāgas.

Aryjna said:
Is it just because the two kinds of Lha belong to different systems of classification or is it that one of them are pretas and the other devas?


Malcolm wrote:
Lha and 'dre, so-called gods and spirits, are basically the eight classes, which are called "lha" when they act beneficially, and "'dre" when they act harmfully.

The eight classes is originally an Indian categorization which the Tibetans took over and adapted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
it is also worth nothing that there are at least four different types of nagas.
Three tanslations of the same sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.067.than.html
http://www.buddhanet.net/bp_sut05.htm
https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.67

Malcolm wrote:
There are also four castes of nāgas, the lowest caste are considered to be very stupid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Gyalpo spirits
Content:
crazy-man said:
Gyalpo are a class of devas...

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are a class of spirits native to Tibet. Classifying them according to Indian lists is inaccurate.

They are basically pretas of a particularly powerful kind.

Mantrik said:
Are all spirits 'native to Tibet' as capable of causing problems world-wide?

Malcolm wrote:
sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:



Mantrik said:
'Nonbinary gendered' .............

Malcolm wrote:
"Nonbinary" is the direct translation of the Tibetan term for such folks, ma ning.

Mantrik said:
In that context containing the unity of both? As with Mahakala Maning.

'Nonbinary' seems to mean unable to identify as either, which is a different thing of very modern coinage.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Gyalpo spirits
Content:


Norwegian said:
No.

Gyalpos are pretas, and they live in the preta realm.

Josef said:
Definitely not.
Not all "spirits" are preta.
Gyalpo are one of the 8 classes of very powerful beings and are much more closely related to the beings of the higher realms than the lower.
They have little in common with preta other than being generally unseen sentient beings.

Aryjna said:
The eight classes, or at least most of them, are classified as pretas that move through space in WOMPT. But as one of the eight classes is devas I suppose these are actually devas and not pretas, and perhaps this is true for 1-2 others.


Malcolm wrote:
Lha are not completely identical with devas, just as klu are not completely identical with nāgas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Gyalpo spirits
Content:
crazy-man said:
Gyalpo are a class of devas...

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are a class of spirits native to Tibet. Classifying them according to Indian lists is inaccurate.

They are basically pretas of a particularly powerful kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
nonbinary gendered people were incapable of being a basis for receiving Buddhist discipline.

Mantrik said:
'Nonbinary gendered' .............

Malcolm wrote:
"Nonbinary" is the direct translation of the Tibetan term for such folks, ma ning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:


Queequeg said:
He/She wanted to use the women's bathroom and the employer didn't want to permit it. This was twenty or so years ago before all this gender stuff became what it is now. The dispute ended up in binding arbitration, as required for almost all disputes arising under a collective bargaining agreement. The arbitrator himself was a grizzled old fella who had been in the trucking industry since Jimmy Hoffa was alive. The sides made their opening statements and then the arbitrator looked at the foreman and asked, "Do you stand or sit?"

The foreman wasn't expecting the question and stammered, "I stand."

The arbitrator said, "You use the men's bathroom."

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, by that standard Buddhist monks have to use the lady's room. They are required to squat or sit when urinating. No pulling up the robes and standing...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:


Norwegian said:
In some more radical extremist corners today, this Buddhist point of view would be regarded as hate-speech and as an act of violence...

Malcolm wrote:
In other parts of the world, just being a Buddhist may very well get you killed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Actually, there is quite a bit of discussion of gender in the Kośabhaṣyaṃ since it bears on gender, and gender is a concern in ordination. There are several gender orientations that were barred from ordination. Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.

Grigoris said:
I have to admit that I have not dared to touch that one yet.  I am currently slogging through his Abhidharmasamuccaya and haven't found anything in there yet either..

In other Abhidhamma and Abhidharma texts I have read, gender is not discussed.

Is the discussion in the Kosa related just to ordination, or to a wider analysis of the subject of gender?

Malcolm wrote:
Gender is principally discussed with regard to who is capable of holding the vows. The ancient Buddhists were basically of the opinion that nonbinary gendered people were incapable of being a basis for receiving Buddhist discipline. Jose Cabezon has a new book out on the subject, which should be very interesting, as he is a very talented scholar:

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/sexuality-classical-south-asian-buddhism


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
DGA said:
A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.
Why not?  If Ms Jenner says she's a woman, I take her word for it.

I wouldn't loan her my truck, though.  Not because she's a woman, but because...  er... I'm not saying she's a terrible driver because she's a woman, but I am saying she is a woman and a terrible driver

Malcolm wrote:
From a Buddhist point of view, one cannot change one's gender. It is something one is born with, it is a portion of one's viapaka, ripened karma, and one cannot alter it by cutting, sewing, or use of prosthetics. One is born either male, female, or nonbinary (with it's five subcategories). The impulse to alter one's apparent gender is itself a sign that one has been born with a nonbinary gender indriya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Grigoris said:
None.  It just talks about the "material phenomenona of sex".

DGA said:
So it describes what it means for a body to be a specifically male or female one.

This is distinct from the question of what it is for a person to be a man.  I'm curious to know if Abhidharma can capture the experience of not fitting into either categories "man" or "woman" in a tidy fashion, or the experience of being a woman but having a male body or being a man but having a female body.

manhood is a social construction.  it's built up in different ways in different contexts, and all of them are full of contradictions.

Grigoris said:
I think it is telling that the Buddha and the Abhidharma do not waste time in discussing gender differences, race differences, etc...

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, there is quite a bit of discussion of gender in the Kośabhaṣyaṃ since it bears on gender, and gender is a concern in ordination. There are several gender orientations that were barred from ordination. Also blond people were barred from ordination as well, since in India people with blond hair were considered demonic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Another good question is: What is a "real woman"?

Ricky said:
That can be a tricky question these days.

DGA said:
I think it's an easy question.

A woman is an adult who identifies as a woman.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV
Content:
Varis said:
How is ancestor worship/placation viewed from the perspective of Mahayana?

Malcolm wrote:
What would be the point? All of our ancestors have long since taken rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 31st, 2018 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Ricky said:
So what would be a better model of masculinity?

Malcolm wrote:
The Bodhisatttva, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Queequeg said:
There's a Southern Man for you, DGA.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo
Content:
PeterC said:
I don’t think we can advise someone to defer studying the dharma when they have genuine interest without endangering our own vows.

However that doesn’t mean that we should advise them to begin immediately with the vajrayana.  There are excellent reasons to delay that until the student has met and developed confidence in a qualified guru etc etc and also has the personal maturity to practice strictly according to the guru’s instructions.

Most teenagers would be best served by shamatha and sutras first, blood-drinking four-headed herukas later.  Though I can see the futility of trying to persuade them of that.

Malcolm wrote:
Ngondro was developed for teens.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo
Content:
marting said:
No, Aryjna. I'm saying he should wait until he develops an adult brain.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is nothing wrong with an adolescent flirtation with Dharma. But serious Dharma practice is an adult pursuit, best left until, as you say, one's brain is fully formed, around 26 or so.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: How are Madhyamaka and Yogacara teachings actually realised?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
So the Madhyamaka and Yogacara teach emptiness and mind only respectively but how are they realised? In a previous thread I posted, I found out early Mahayana practitioners mostly did similar practices to Hinayana schools. So how did they realise Madhayamaka or Yogacara teachings while doing virtually the same thing as the Sravakas?

Malcolm wrote:
They practice the same path, the six perfections.

ItsRaining said:
But how did they realise the specific teachings in their systems? If they practiced the same things why were their teachings/realisation different?

Malcolm wrote:
Their realization differed because their view differed. From the perspective of Candrakīrti, for example, Yogacāra practice does not lead to the path of seeing. This was contested by Yogacārins, naturally.

If we examine the texts of the respective systems, we can see that the standard division of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra as deep and vast is grounded in reality.

Madhyamaka focuses on the profound view, whereas, Yogacāra focuses on a detailed explanation of the bodhisattva path. There is no difference in practice, but there is a difference in view. The de facto Indian position (while not entirely uncontested) is that Madhyamaka and the Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras are the summum bonum of Mahāyāna teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: What is a Man?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'm surprised no one has brought up archetypes and male and female energy characteristics.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean like this?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 1:09 PM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
Thanks. That's a very good, succinct definition of the kind of truth Westerners usually assume, too.


Agreed, but do poetic truth, mythical truth, subjective truth, spiritual truth qualify as "phenomena"? Nagas might, but (e.g.) the statement that, "Truth is beauty, beauty truth," isn't. Nor is, "I am constantly amazed by the quality of the light over the Coral Sea," which is incontrovertible but can't be "conventionally known by ordinary people," as you put it.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Aesthetic evaluations are entirely subjective and emotive. They are supposed to be so.

Kim O'Hara said:
Fine, but my question was whether those statements are "true" or not, or in which way they might be "true". They are certainly not true in the way that "Paris is the capital of France" is true, but nor are they false.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
This is why it is important to distinguish facts from aesthetics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:30 AM
Title: Re: How are Madhyamaka and Yogacara teachings actually realised?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
So the Madhyamaka and Yogacara teach emptiness and mind only respectively but how are they realised? In a previous thread I posted, I found out early Mahayana practitioners mostly did similar practices to Hinayana schools. So how did they realise Madhayamaka or Yogacara teachings while doing virtually the same thing as the Sravakas?

Malcolm wrote:
They practice the same path, the six perfections.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Mind (duality and beyond)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nothing. Should there be?

DGA said:
What's mind?

Nothing said:
ok. maybe we're limited by language here.....how about " that " which experiences Nirvana?.....can we call it " awareness?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no aggregates in nirvana, so how can there be awareness in nirvana?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The baseline standard for what is "true," from a Madhyamaka perspective, is that which can be conventionally known by ordinary people.

Kim O'Hara said:
Thanks. That's a very good, succinct definition of the kind of truth Westerners usually assume, too.
Phenomena beyond such conventional knowledge can be accepted based on testimony, but it is a very thin authority.
Agreed, but do poetic truth, mythical truth, subjective truth, spiritual truth qualify as "phenomena"? Nagas might, but (e.g.) the statement that, "Truth is beauty, beauty truth," isn't. Nor is, "I am constantly amazed by the quality of the light over the Coral Sea," which is incontrovertible but can't be "conventionally known by ordinary people," as you put it.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Aesthetic evaluations are entirely subjective and emotive. They are supposed to be so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:
Josef said:
We like to assume that the word "myth" means "not true".
The primary definition of myth is: "a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon"

Mantrik said:
Folk tales indeed, as I mentioned earlier. Odd how neutral words acquire pejorative uses, like  criticism, cult etc.

Kim O'Hara said:
We also (usually) have a strangely narrow view of "true", applying it only to publicly verifiable statements about the physical world, or (less often) logical truths. A lot of what we deal with here on DW is "true" in other ways - poetic truth, mythical truth, subjective truth, spiritual truth.
Are these kinds of truth imperfect (less valid) versions of the materialist truth? Or different-but-equal? Or not truth at all?

I would argue for different-but-equal, but it would be nice if we didn't have to use the same word for such different things.


Kim


Malcolm wrote:
The baseline standard for what is "true," from a Madhyamaka perspective, is that which can be conventionally known by ordinary people. Phenomena beyond such conventional knowledge can be accepted based on testimony, but it is a very thin authority.

There are also recognized cognitive limitations which ordinary people find insurmountable without a considerable amount of effort spent in developing the five eyes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Which is an identity, since that is how they are defined. The chief aim of Socialists was to awaken such people to their identity as the proletariat.

Grigoris said:
No.  One can choose to identify with their class (or not), but somebody is a proletarian whether they identify with their relation to capital or not.  It is the reason why white working class people are still proletariat, even if they are granted some advantages due to their skin colour.  Even if they choose to support the capitalist class (cf Fascists).  Regardless of whether they identify with other proletarians or not, they still do not own the means of production.  That is the reality of a class view of politics.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still just a label, and therefore an identity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Even as a class, identity politics are at work, with the notion of the proletariat, and so on.

Grigoris said:
No.  A proletariat is defined by their relation to capital (the means of production).

Malcolm wrote:
Which is an identity, since that is how they are defined. The chief aim of Socialists was to awaken such people to their identity as the proletariat.

And not surprisingly, Socialists in the US consistently maintained/and still maintain that African Americans had/need to stuff their issues with racism and subordinate them to class interests. Not surprisingly, Socialism has never done all that well among African Americans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
DGA said:
Actually, "being compounded" is the proof there is no such thing as "inherent existence."

weitsicht said:
No, three things are uncompounded. Or do you abnegate that?
So I understand you say "absence of inherent existence" always means "being compounded"? But then "presence of inherent existence" always means "being uncompounded"?

Malcolm wrote:
No, also, the three unconditioned dharmas also lack inherent existence since they also lack a self.


weitsicht said:
And no, I have no idea how uncompoundedness could be proven by logic.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of space discussed in Buddhist texts. The first and most important is space as "absence of obsctruction." This is uncompounded or unconditioned space. The second kind of space is dimension, such as the dimension of the cavity in a cup. That kind of space is compounded.

The other two unconditioned dharmas, the two cessations, also lack inherent existence because they are the absence of causes, and do not by themselves exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies
Content:
Grigoris said:
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics).  It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Class politics are identity politics.

Grigoris said:
Ummm... Yeah, right!

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in the US they are -- with roots dating back to the Colonial era when some people (whites) of the same class (poor) were given more rights than other poor people (blacks, natives) in order to split their power.

Further, the Socialist movement in the US largely failed because if identity (this is not well known). Prior to the first world war, the majority of Socialists in the US were German-speakers, and Socialist newspapers and so on across the US were published principally in German. Non-German speaking Socialists like Italians were completely marginalized in the US, and had little or no voice in the Socialist movement -- identity politics at work again.

Indeed, identity politics were at the root of the Italian Fascist Movement because of the failure of Socialism to deal with identity at all.\

Even as a class, identity politics are at work, with the notion of the proletariat, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.

Grigoris said:
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics).  It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Class politics are identity politics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 9:59 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
weitsicht said:
Provided that the list of the three unconditioned phenomena is conclusive, what makes things like space or paradoxy conditioned or compound (the latter was the term I started with because it was how it was taught to me) ?

Malcolm wrote:
Conditioned/compounded things have parts and causes. Unconditioned/uncompounded things have no parts and no causes.

weitsicht said:
I reconsidered and I insist.
Paradoxes and time are uncomponded.


Malcolm wrote:
You can insist all you like, but paradoxes are not listed, and time is definitely compounded since it is divided into past, present, and future.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
weitsicht said:
Provided that the list of the three unconditioned phenomena is conclusive, what makes things like space or paradoxy conditioned or compound (the latter was the term I started with because it was how it was taught to me) ?

Malcolm wrote:
Conditioned/compounded things have parts and causes. Unconditioned/uncompounded things have no parts and no causes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies
Content:


Grigoris said:
I think the problem with the left in the US is that it is dominated by liberalism and that whole "sanctity of the individual", whereas here the left is dominated by socialism.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:



weitsicht said:
Still looking for a response.
And no, don't want to discuss "mind" here.

Malcolm wrote:
The three unconditioned phenomena are space, analytical cessation (nirvana), and non-analytical cessation (simple absence of causation).

weitsicht said:
Thanks Malcolm.
Meaning (3) mind was wrong. And (2) Entrance into nirvana is little differently interpreted

What makes phenomena like paradoxy compound?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know what a "paradoxy compound" is. Can you explain it a little better?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
weitsicht said:
What is it that is uncompoud?

I remember from a teaching, but cannot cite and may be wrong, there are three only:
(1) Nirvana
(2) Entrance into nirvana and
(3) mind

Could you please confirm or correct?

If so, why for example paradoxy is compound?
Still looking for a response.
And no, don't want to discuss "mind" here.


Malcolm wrote:
The three unconditioned phenomena are space, analytical cessation (nirvana), and non-analytical cessation (simple absence of causation).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
You can have the moderators delete it then. I was clarifying to O_156 why it was a strange citation.

O_156 said:
Thank you for the clarification, I found it. I think its a translation of the word dharma-mudrā, as far as I can tell.
But yes, moderators please feel free to delete my posts as well, if they distract the thread/topic.

Coëmgenu said:
Its ambiguous. 印 (seal; trace; mark; sign; imprint) has two radicals, 爪 (a hand) & 卩 (a kneeling man). This could potentially point to dharmamudrā at least in as much as folk linguistics has a tendency to point to much.

But 法印 (dharma seal) can also have come from dharmoddāna still. The http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%E5%84%AA%E6%AA%80%E9%82%A3 (is this a working link for everyone?) has 印 as a semantic variant of 優檀那 (ʔɨu dɑn nɑ), which in turn is a phonetic transcription of the Sanskrit uddāna. Mind you, this reading seems only attested in a traditional Chinese-Sanskrit dictionary preserved at the end of the Taishō collection (T 2131 ).

Apologies for the aside into speculations as to the origin of various terms for "dharma seal".


Malcolm wrote:
That is not a problem, the only problem is when you use Chinese terms with no explanation of what they mean.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Mind (duality and beyond)
Content:
Nothing said:
Mind has two sides.
Delusion and non-delusion.....different sides of the same mind.
I.e. Samsara and Nirvana.

What is beyond this?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing. Should there be?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
I was having a difficult time following the citation as well, otherwise I would have responded with the section in question as well as the dictionary quotes. I made a thread about the sort of thing here.

The CBETA edition of T 262 I'm referencing only has 7 scrolls. This is citing a 9th scroll. This means that the scroll numbers and volume numbers are not always the same, and there seems to be no way to know if someone is citing a scroll or a volume.

So the Saṃgaṇikīkṛtaṃ Taiśotripiṭakaṃ Database (http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/T0262_,09,0015b05:0262_,09,0015c05.html) has it by volume number, and the citation there is T 0262_.09.0015b07, which corresponds to T 262.9.15b7 from the dictionary.

The Taishō Canon I consult lists it by scroll number, not volume number. So the citation for me is T 262.2.15b7. Maybe you can find it that way. Try looking for scroll 2 instead of volume 9.

This is the text: 故現於世 汝舍利弗 我此法印

This seems an odd citation to give for 三印, as the text actually has 法印.

Malcolm wrote:
For those who do not read Chinese, this is useless, especially in the Nyingma Forum.

Coëmgenu said:
You can have the moderators delete it then. I was clarifying to O_156 why it was a strange citation.

Malcolm wrote:
It's TOS, when using foreign terms, you must provide a translation for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Finally, in some presentations the second constraint is listed as "All that is contaminated is suffering," but surprisingly, it is very uncommon in this list which is mentioned through out Mahāyāna sūtras in many places. The reading above is the most common in the Sūtras. In one or two places you see "empty" attached to the third constraint, as in "All phenomena are empty and without a self."

Dorje Shedrub said:
Ven. Thubten Chodron presents the second constraint (she uses the term "seal") this way saying: "All polluted phenomena are dukkha—unsatisfactory or in the nature of suffering."

I'm curious how one uses "emotions" and another "polluted phenomena"  Is this a Gelug thing?

http://thubtenchodron.org/2011/08/core-buddhist-principles/

Malcolm wrote:
The term in Sanskrit is sāsrava, literally "with outflows," often translated from Pali as "cankers." It is actually fairly rare in the sources texts, but Tibetans seem to have picked up on it and standardized it because it distinguishes formations from āsrava, outflows, cankers, etc.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
O_156 said:
I might be looking at a totally wrong place, but is 法華經 T 262.9.15b7 the correct place where 三印 (Three Seals) is mentioned? Because I’m not seeing it.

Coëmgenu said:
I was having a difficult time following the citation as well, otherwise I would have responded with the section in question as well as the dictionary quotes. I made a thread about the sort of thing here.

The CBETA edition of T 262 I'm referencing only has 7 scrolls. This is citing a 9th scroll. This means that the scroll numbers and volume numbers are not always the same, and there seems to be no way to know if someone is citing a scroll or a volume.

So the Saṃgaṇikīkṛtaṃ Taiśotripiṭakaṃ Database (http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/T0262_,09,0015b05:0262_,09,0015c05.html) has it by volume number, and the citation there is T 0262_.09.0015b07, which corresponds to T 262.9.15b7 from the dictionary.

The Taishō Canon I consult lists it by scroll number, not volume number. So the citation for me is T 262.2.15b7. Maybe you can find it that way. Try looking for scroll 2 instead of volume 9.

This is the text: 故現於世 汝舍利弗 我此法印

This seems an odd citation to give for 三印, as the text actually has 法印.

Malcolm wrote:
For those who do not read Chinese, this is useless, especially in the Nyingma Forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
I've had the great fortune to receive some transmissions from Rinpoche on a couple occasions at Tashi Choling here in S Oregon, and he's always struck me as incredible. I wonder what the likelihood is that we'll see him back here anytime soon, though.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Sangye Khandronspoke very highly of him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Strive said:
Hello to Malcolm and all,

I was wondering if one will be able to read this book if they do not have direct introduction? The person in question is very religious but belongs to a different faith. If they are not interested in receiving DI then what can I do to secure their liberation permanently?

marting said:
My personal opinion is to secure liberation for yourself first and leave other people to choose their own religious worldview without persuasion or mediation.

Malcolm wrote:
And this is relevant to this thread because?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to the conventional perception of ordinary human beings in the West, these things are all mythological. YMMV.

Losal Samten said:
Is there a reason why humans can see animals in general, but not nagas, garudas, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, some of these beings are devas, or classified among the devas, and are thus outside of our conventional perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Nagas -- mythological?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Loppon-la/Malcolm said in another thread:

"Generally, the opinion is animals do not have the capacity to attain awakening, though there are some special cases where mythological animals like nāgas are considered capable of doing so." (italics mine)

what do you think of his use of the word "mythological" in this context since the Bhagawat Himself has spoken about and to nagas in the sutras? if nagas are mythological, then are brahma, indra, mahadev mythological? what about yakshas, rakshasas, kimnaras, kumbhandas, and gandharvas? and how about mahoragas and sa-dag/lords of the earth?

let the fun begin.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the conventional perception of ordinary human beings in the West, these things are all mythological. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

Malcolm wrote:
My observation is that if 100 Tibetan Lamas won't given an endorsement, the 101th will. That is all the endorsement one needs for most Westerners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
Apologies, I figured the Taishō number was the most straightforward way.

Malcolm wrote:
No worries, but it is an unattested reasding, i.e., pretty basless, Can you tell me exactly what chapter this comes from?

M

Coëmgenu said:
I can reproduce the relevant parts from the dictionary entry:

[From http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?4e.xml+id%28%27b4e09-6cd5-5370%27%29:] The three marks of the law. Three aspects of the Buddhist teaching that clearly distinguish it from non-Buddhist teachings: all things are impermanent 諸行無常, all things lack inherent existence (no-self) 諸法無我, and that nirvāṇa is perfect quiescence 涅槃寂靜. 〔法華經 http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/T0262_,09,0015b05:0262_,09,0015c05.html〕 Also written http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?4e.xml+id%28%27b4e09-5370%27%29 (Skt. tri-dṛṣṭi-namitta-mudrā; Tib. phyag rgya gsum). [Charles Muller; source(s): YBh-Ind]

[If anyone has trouble accessing DDB, you just type 'guest' into the first line of the window that pops up and then hit enter.]

I don't know if 'Yhb-Ind' is a citation of a manuscript or something, or a scholarly work of some sort. The Taishō citation they give just links to the Chinese text. If indeed it was a reconstruction, I think it would have been nice for the dictionary compilers to try to mark it with at least an *asterisk.

Malcolm wrote:
The term phyag rgya gsum does indeed appear in Tibetan dictionaries, but in the bstan 'gyur it is a very rare term, showing up in only four texts, one of those the Korean commentary mentioned already (apart from  Tantric texts where the term means something else). The term shows up in the bka' 'gyur, but again, here it does not refer to the formula "all formations," etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 9:11 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
florin said:
For those still in doubt whether Aro was real maybe this could help things along.
After all Aro might have roots in the history of romanian automotive industry.
And yes that was a real car...
aro-10-3-1-9018-default-large.jpeg

Malcolm wrote:
Thank you, Florin. The mystery has now been put to rest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: 7th head of the Nyingmapa
Content:
Pero said:
But what does the head of the Nyingma actually do?

Malcolm wrote:
Gives the Kama, gives the Rinchen Terzod, etc., reports to HHDL, etc. etc.

Pero said:
I see. But don't other teachers also give Kama and so on?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but there is no one teacher responsible for all Nyingma monasteries without a head of sect. Rotating it means that rather than factions being able to develop around this teacher or that, more qualified teachers rather than less will be exposed to the limelight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Me too, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Grigoris said:
Except for maybe being a complete and utter waste of one's precious human existence.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, with so many people wasting their precious human birth, what does one more matter?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
SunWuKong said:
Okay I lost that one. I’m

Malcolm wrote:
Not, really, Darwin did resist use of the term precisely because it implied "improvement," rather than simple adaptation.

And, as we know, the term has been used by racists, and so on, to imply some human beings are inferior to others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Non-human capacity for wisdom
Content:
TravisM said:
To my understanding non-human animals have traditionally been all grouped together as a class of sentient beings. Are there any teachings, or does anyone have a thought, on whether some animals (say, whales) may be able to understand the dharma in their own way and even reach enlightenment?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the opinion is animals do not have the capacity to attain awakening, though there are some special cases where mythological animals like nāgas are considered capable of doing so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
What about the peek-a-boo nipple?  Just a bit naughty!

Malcolm wrote:
A thought has occurred to me numerous times, that the whole Aro thing is a deliberate parody...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2018 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
SunWuKong said:
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution, neither of which are supported by Buddhist teaching. Things are what they are. None of that is going to help us. All we can cling to is Emptiness

weitsicht said:
At least I am not alone in here.
Tainted Love

Are you a nihilist, SunWuKong?

SunWuKong said:
My favorite strategy here is pointing out that Darwin never suggested evolution, he suggested natural selection, and our view of earth history is being confirmed as based on catastrophe. Not evolution.

Malcolm wrote:
The very last word in Origin of the Species is...wait for it..."evolved."

"From so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."
-- Origin of the Species, Darwin


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: 7th head of the Nyingmapa
Content:



Adamantine said:
What's most interesting is this new 3-year term rotation that's
been developed. . . I suppose it's quite a burden so probably the idea was to share the responsibility and not put it all on one persons shoulders for too long?

Malcolm wrote:
They've copied it from the Sakyapas.

TaTa said:
So the head of the sakyapas its not always sakya trinzin?

Malcolm wrote:
The head of the Sakyas is always the Sakya Trizin, they've merely turned it into a three year gig for the time being because there are so many Khon family members who have been trained for the position.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: 7th head of the Nyingmapa
Content:
Pero said:
But what does the head of the Nyingma actually do?

Malcolm wrote:
Gives the Kama, gives the Rinchen Terzod, etc., reports to HHDL, etc. etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: 7th head of the Nyingmapa
Content:
XXIlluminatingVoid72 said:
Katok Getse Rinpoche was been appointed head of the Nyingma lineage for three years, yesterday in Bodhgaya

http://tibet.net/2018/01/kathok-getse-rinpoche-appointed-as-the-7th-nyingma-head/

Adamantine said:
What's most interesting is this new 3-year term rotation that's
been developed. . . I suppose it's quite a burden so probably the idea was to share the responsibility and not put it all on one persons shoulders for too long?

Malcolm wrote:
They've copied it from the Sakyapas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
you can't separate religion for culture

Malcolm wrote:
Sure you can. This is how secular states function.

Americans are more American than they are Buddhists, Catholics, and so on.

It is absolutely essential to distinguish culture from religion. If we don't, we erroneously conclude FGM in Subsarahan Africa, etc., is part of Islam, but it isn't. It is just pre-Islamic African cultural practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are many practices which are cultural accretions, not part of the Dharma at all, for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music. Harmonic singing, which comes from Mongolian culture and was introduced to Gelug by Mongolian students, etc.

MiphamFan said:
I somewhat knew about the latter (Mongolian throat singing-Gelug chanting connection) although I never read any formal articles about it but the former is interesting. So our chants as distant cousins of Islamic nasheeds. Any sources on this?

Malcolm wrote:
If I recall correctly, R.A. Stein has something to say about this: but the horns, drums, shwams, and the way they are played comes from Persian martial music.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
Simon E. said:
Some are Malcolm. Even this forum is not free from perennialist/universalists who think that all paths lead to the same goal and that it just takes time.

Malcolm wrote:
The he should have said "some of us."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
SunWuKong said:
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution...

Malcolm wrote:
We are?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche
Content:


Thomas Amundsen said:
Not sure what this title really means...

Malcolm wrote:
More work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.


Malcolm wrote:
FYI, it would be helpful to include a Sanskrit title, like Saddharmapundarika-- assuming I am correct, this phrase is missing from the Tibetan text.

M

Coëmgenu said:
Apologies, I figured the Taishō number was the most straightforward way.

Malcolm wrote:
No worries, but it is an unattested reasding, i.e., pretty basless, Can you tell me exactly what chapter this comes from?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism lists 三印 ("the three seals") as a translation of tridṛṣṭinamittamudrā specifically in the case of T 262.9.15b7 (妙法蓮華經, Ven Kumārajīva translation). Very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds like a reconstruction to me.

Coëmgenu said:
Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.


Malcolm wrote:
FYI, it would be helpful to include a Sanskrit title, like Saddharmapundarika-- assuming I am correct, this phrase is missing from the Tibetan text.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
you can't separate religion for culture

Malcolm wrote:
Sure you can. This is how secular states function.

Americans are more American than they are Buddhists, Catholics, and so on.

It is absolutely essential to distinguish culture from religion. If we don't, we erroneously conclude FGM in Subsarahan Africa, etc., is part of Islam, but it isn't. It is just pre-Islamic African cultural practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are many practices which are cultural accretions, not part of the Dharma at all, for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music. Harmonic singing, which comes from Mongolian culture and was introduced to Gelug by Mongolian students, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
Quay said:
Thank you for the explanation of where the word seals came from in this context. I had no idea came through such a long journey through several languages. Constraint does seem to be a much better word. I have to think about this for a bit myself.

Malcolm wrote:
Neither did I until I looked it up in the bKa' 'gyur and bstan 'gyur last night. There are all kinds of received ideas we do not question.

Coëmgenu said:
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism lists 三印 ("the three seals") as a translation of tridṛṣṭinamittamudrā specifically in the case of T 262.9.15b7 (妙法蓮華經, Ven Kumārajīva translation). Very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds like a reconstruction to me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:



javier.espinoza.t said:
I have, partially; when i was looking for karmamudra teachings/instructions i've examined a few words without knowing of it's controversy and discarded it. Sorry. It lacked substance.

Don't know if this satisfy you all haha, it's only my experience, which is as valid as yours. Maybe someone else has karma or something for this to be useful in some way.
_______

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you do not need karmamudra at all, nor do you need to prove you are a serious yogin.

javier.espinoza.t said:
I'm a just a pretender, not a dzogchenpa. A little kid playing with mind. Simple contemplation is not rigpa.

I want to learn vajrayana by the way.

Malcolm wrote:
ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 26th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Has anybody here seen the terma/teaching/sadhana?

javier.espinoza.t said:
I have, partially; when i was looking for karmamudra teachings/instructions i've examined a few words without knowing of it's controversy and discarded it. Sorry. It lacked substance.

Don't know if this satisfy you all haha, it's only my experience, which is as valid as yours. Maybe someone else has karma or something for this to be useful in some way.
_______

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you do not need karmamudra at all, nor do you need to prove you are a serious yogin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Kalacakra and shambala
Content:
DGA said:
You can read the commentary by Mipham that Malcolm alluded to in English translation if you’ve had the Kalachakra empowerment.

You’ll need an account at kalachakranet.

What a strange thread this is.



Harold Musetescu said:
Hello DGA

You are aware that the Kalachakra empowerment say the Dalai Lama gives to the general public is only the "Outer" empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
Harold, in fact, in Washington, DC, HHDL gave the whole kit and kaboodle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, I never said the Buddha was eternal. What Maitreyanatha states is that "the refuge for going to the ultimate meaning is the Buddha alone because the Muni possesses the dharma body."

Grigoris said:
So now the dharmakaya is compounded too???

Malcolm wrote:
It's possible. There are a lot of debates about this, just as there are debates about what dharmakāya means.


Grigoris said:
It is obvious when you take into account everything the Buddha has said about his past lives in the Pali Sutta and his awakening, and do not merely select from one source sutta, as you have done.
If there is one thing I have realised it is that each Sutta has to be taken in it's specific context, it is when we try to generalise meanings across teachings (a mistake made by 99.9% of those that quote the Kalamas Sutta, for example) that we start to run into problems.

Malcolm wrote:
When it comes to Buddha's accounts of his awakening, I think it is vital to take them all into account, since together they paint a comprehensive picture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
It's not about mlecchas being upset or not, it's just that the Kalacakra counts followers of Abraham as mlecchas.

Anyway on the OP in relation to this, I don't think the mlecchas will directly destroy Buddhism. Buddhists are creating negative karma which drives people away and comes back and bite them in the ass (Lakar et al, advocating genocide etc), the mlecchas are just the instruments of karma.

Malcolm wrote:
The interesting thing about karmavipaka is that there are no instruments involved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But it is no more permanent than the Buddha. No buddha, no qualities.

Grigoris said:
Whoa there cowboy!  A second ago you were quoting Maitreyanatha to the tune of "Only the Buddha is eternal".  Now you are saying that the Buddha is not eternal?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I never said the Buddha was eternal. What Maitreyanatha states is that "the refuge for going to the ultimate meaning is the Buddha alone because the Muni possesses the dharma body." He does not state that the Buddha is permanent. He is saying that the two kinds of Dharma, that of scripture and realization, are perishable, as well as the Sangha.

Grigoris said:
Then you said something to the tune of:  The Buddha is the Dharma.  Well if the Buddha is the Dharma and the Buddha is eternal...  Or am I making some sort of logic fallacy here?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes, you are making an error in logic, because you are mixing up the yānas. You cited something from a Pali Sutta, so I did.

But I began this part of our discussion by pointing out that only the Buddha was a refuge in contrast to your assertion that Dharma was eternal and imperishable, by which you apparently mean "constant," just as 2=2 = 4 is a constant. If you say the Dharma is a constant, then I can agree with that language. If you say it is permanent, I cannot agree with that language because the Dharma isn't permanent, even though it is a constant.


Grigoris said:
But a second ago you said that the Buddha rediscovering the ancient path was based on what he received from past Buddhas, now you are saying...

Malcolm wrote:
It is obvious when you take into account everything the Buddha has said about his past lives in the Pali Sutta and his awakening, and do not merely select from one source sutta, as you have done.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: 2018 Losar
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Can somebody point out when and which days will fall 2018's Losar for the western hemisphere?

javier.espinoza.t said:
Friday 16 of February, 2018. According to IDC tibetan calendar.

I've been reading on tb astrology a bit and there are 2 calendar systems: one related to the gelugpas and the other to the kagyupas. The Losar is not in the same day in those both calendars so this can confuse us.

I don't know to which one the IDC calendar belongs, if belongs. I would think to the kagyupa, since ChNN studyed in a kagyu school.

Also the calendars doesn't contain calcs on time zones. But thats what we have.

Malcolm wrote:
IDC calendar follows Gelug system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
shaunc said:
I can't believe that you two fellas would even attempt to justify such behavior. You're so far left you're off the road.

Malcolm wrote:
The Bodhicaryāvatāra, 4:64 (Wallace):

My hatred toward those who revile and violate images, stupas, and the sublime Dharma is wrong, because the Buddhas and the like are free of distress.

Now, you were saying?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I include Christians as mlecchas.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure they will be very upset to hear that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW, the Saddharmapundarika Sūtra states:

If no phenomena are perceived at all, 
that is the great wisdom that perceives
the whole dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination is simply, Where is arose, that arose; with the arising of that, this arises."  If you assert the Dharma is dependent origination, then you will are asserting a impermanent, conditioned thing as the Dharma in contradiction to your claim.

Grigoris said:
???  What are you talking about  ???  This is like claiming that gravity did not exist until Newton said it existed.  Whether the explanation/teaching  regarding Dependent Origination exists or not is irrelevant, Dependent Origination continues to function.  Our lack of awareness of it does not mean it does not exist anymore.

Malcolm wrote:
"Dependent origination" cannot be found as some independent entity. It is not something that stands apart from dependently originated phenomena.
Dependent origination is just "Because this exists, that exists, with the arising of that, this arose."


Grigoris said:
I am happy to accept that teachings on dependent origination are the Dharma, since the Buddha said, "Whoever sees dependent origination sees the Dharma, whoever sees the Dharma sees dependent origination." [M.I.190] But if you claim the Dharma is eternal, you will claim that dependent origination is eternal.
If we both agree that samsara is infinite, then you will have to agree that dependent origination functions infinitely too.  Infinite and eternal being synonyms...

Malcolm wrote:
I agree that conditioned phenomena have no beginning. The term "dependent origination" is just a word we use to describe "arising from conditions."

Further, knowing dependent origination does not necessarily lead to liberation. That is why we need the Dharma, to explain how insight into dependent origination leads to the pacification of proliferation that characterizes nirvana or peace.

Grigoris said:
Likewise, at S.III.120, the Buddha says, "Whoever sees the Dharma sees the Buddha, whoever sees the Buddha sees the Dharma." Clearly, the Buddha is not eternal according to these sources, so claiming based on Pali sources that the Dharma or the Buddha is eternal is not going to fly.
If you believe he is speaking in reference to the Nirmanakaya and not the Dharmakaya then yes, it is not going to fly.

Malcolm wrote:
The Theravada concept of Dhammakāya is the qualities of the Buddha, such as the ten powers and so on. But it is no more permanent than the Buddha. No buddha, no qualities.

Even in Mahāyāna, dharmakāya is not a thing, per se.

Grigoris said:
A minute ago you were arguing that the Dharma expopunded by the Buddha was based on his training in the stages under past Buddhas and now you say that realisation disappears with the dissolution of this particular combination of name and form.  Make up your mind.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction. The Dharma of past Buddhas no longer exists, as least not in any complete form. What we know of the Dharma of past Buddhas comes from this Buddha. Even so, the Dharma is something with parts, something that is perishable. There is no Dharma outside of the scripture and realization -- but texts decay and realized people die.

If you want "Eternal" Dharma, look to Hinduism and its Sanatana Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
Grigoris said:
The nonsense spouted by Buddhists is the greatest existential threat to Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
That is quite true. And the Buddha himself said as much:

There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn16/sn16.013.than.html

The problem, however, people have very divergent opinions about what this passage means. Perhaps that in itself is the counterfeit Dharma, the fact that we cannot agree even on the most basic principles of what constitutes the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.

Carlita said:
Do you mean return your sacramental vows? If so, youd have to go to your parish where they baptized you (I think or any church) and fill out paper work to debaptize you. Once you do that, you cant take the sacraments anymore. This is the States but Im sure its the same just I dont know about the opposition based on area.

javier.espinoza.t said:
No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification.

Malcolm wrote:
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Well, the mlecchas taking over the world was predicted in the Kalacakra Tantra.

Malcolm wrote:
And when the Kalacakra was written, they were taking over the known world, from Spain to Indonesia. Now, it is a different story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:


shaunc said:
You've got to be bloody joking. Blowing up statues has got to be one of the biggest shows of a lack of respect I could think of.

Malcolm wrote:
How does someone's lack of respect injure you? Sticks and stones....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha when referred to prior to his awakening is called the Bodhisattva in Hinayāna texts.

Grigoris said:
Are you repeating my point for your sake or for mine? In the Bhayabherava Sutta Buddha mentions that he recalled his myriad pasts lives, who he was, what his name was an so on during the first watch of the night of his awakening, prior to gaining awakening. You really think during that time he did not recall teachings he received from Buddhas in the past?
Ummmmm...  We are not discussing the Bhayabherava Sutta (MN 4), we are discussing SN 12.65.  Regardless of this fact, in MN 4 it is still not 100% clear whether he is referring to realisations arising during his life as a Bodhisattva in his last life (but prior to his enlightenment during his last life) or in a previous life.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is. It refers to Udraka Rāmaputra and Ālāra Kalama.

Grigoris said:
Like I said:  unlike Mahayana where the Buddha was already a Buddha before his appearance in this world, in Theravada he was a Bodhisattva up until the point where he sat under the bodhi tree and achieved enlightenment (but now I am repeating myself).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is well known.


Grigoris said:
He does mention recollection of his past lives in MN 4, but he makes no mention of his knowledge arising from teachings he received from other Buddhas.  So I fail to see why you mention the particular Sutta as it is not really evidence against the notion that Dharma is eternal ie it does not contradict my interpretation of SN 12.65.

Malcolm wrote:
Eternal things do not disappear, but conditioned things with parts, for example, the Dharma, do:

"That's the way it is, Kassapa. When beings are degenerating and the true Dhamma is disappearing, there are more training rules and yet fewer monks established in final gnosis. There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn16/sn16.013.than.html

There are many things which lead to the perishing of the Dharma, Christopher Titmus lists a number of sources concerning this here:

https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-dharma-according-to-the-buddha

Dependent origination is simply, Where is arose, that arose; with the arising of that, this arises."  If you assert the Dharma is dependent origination, then you will are asserting a impermanent, conditioned thing as the Dharma in contradiction to your claim. I am happy to accept that teachings on dependent origination are the Dharma, since the Buddha said, "Whoever sees dependent origination sees the Dharma, whoever sees the Dharma sees dependent origination." [M.I.190] But if you claim the Dharma is eternal, you will claim that dependent origination is eternal.

Likewise, at S.III.120, the Buddha says, "Whoever sees the Dharma sees the Buddha, whoever sees the Buddha sees the Dharma." Clearly, the Buddha is not eternal according to these sources, so claiming based on Pali sources that the Dharma or the Buddha is eternal is not going to fly.

Beyond that, only two kinds of Dharma are defined the texts we have-- scripture and realization. Since texts and oral traditions vanish, and realized people die; both are impermanent. Thus, defining a third Dharma which is permanent or eternal is novel and without textual basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Kalacakra and shambala
Content:


methar said:
I won't ever tell anyone who my Tantric Lama is or what my tantric practice is.

Malcolm wrote:
Harold, your identity as someone who practices the Gyalpo is well known. In fact, your nym here is a reference to one of the Gyalpo's subordinate entities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Kalacakra and shambala
Content:
methar said:
I don't and all I can do is guess about the Kalacakra War and anyone else who claims they know is either lying or breaking their tantric vows.

Malcolm wrote:
It is very clearly spelled out in Mipham's very long commentary on the root tantra, and other commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Kalacakra and shambala
Content:



Fortyeightvows said:
I very highly doubt that the texts in question were made to be interpreted as a mere psychodrama.

Malcolm wrote:
The real meaning of the Shambhala war is purely a metaphor, as anyone who studies the system in any detail understands.

It is not meant to taken literally at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Historically means throughout all of history. But even now, Islam is not a threat to Buddhism. In these articles, you are presenting only the Buddhist side of conflicts with Muslims in SE Asia.

So, still fake news.


In particular, your posting evidence of attacks in Myanmar, while true, is rather appalling considering the serious ethnic cleansing Buddhists are engaging in there, which has been denounced by this board as genocidal. Buddhism in Burma is under no duress from Muslims.

Threatening to blow up statues and monuments is not a threat to Buddhadharma, as Śantideva makes clear.



Fortyeightvows said:
Historically Islam has been the biggest threat to buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
This is historically false, fake news in other words.

Fortyeightvows said:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/after-recovery-of-2-bombs-in-bodh-gaya-nia-starts-probe-1802941
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-south-bomb/bomb-at-pork-stall-in-market-in-thailands-south-kills-three-wounds-22-idUSKBN1FB05M
https://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/2017/08/11/statue-of-chinese-god-stokes-tension-in-muslimmajority-indonesia/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/world/asia/indonesia-chinese-statue-islam-muslims-protest-guan-yu.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31813681
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-threat-ancient-buddhist-temple-puts-indonesia-police-alert-1462352
https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/thai/south-arrests-01052018145828.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-south/history-of-thai-kings-a-new-topic-in-schools-of-conflict-torn-south-idUSKBN1EZ0Y9
https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/malaysian/militants-arrested-01222018125120.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/attack-kills-myanmar-police-bangladesh-border-161010132157512.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37601928

https://www.nalandauniv.edu.in/about-nalanda/history-and-revival/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
Quay said:
Thank you for the explanation of where the word seals came from in this context. I had no idea came through such a long journey through several languages. Constraint does seem to be a much better word. I have to think about this for a bit myself.

Malcolm wrote:
Neither did I until I looked it up in the bKa' 'gyur and bstan 'gyur last night. There are all kinds of received ideas we do not question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Historically Islam has been the biggest threat to buddhism

Malcolm wrote:
This is historically false, fake news in other words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 24th, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching  he had received from past buddhas.

Grigoris said:
Say what???  Here is the original for context: http://lirs.ru/lib/sutra/Connected_Discourses_of_the_Buddha%28Samyutta_Nikaya%29.Vol.I.pdf Starting on page 299 of the PDF, page 601 of the book.

He makes a mention of his sorjurn in Sattvhi as a Bodhisattva but it is not clear whether he is talking about his current life just prior to his enlightenment (this is a Theravada text, remember, so the Buddha was not enlightened until he plonked his ass down under the bodhi tree, up until that fateful occasion he was a Bodhisattva).  Also there is no mention in the text about teachings from previous Buddhas.

So...  No!

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha when referred to prior to his awakening is called the Bodhisattva in Hinayāna texts.

In the Bhayabherava Sutta Buddha mentions that he recalled his myriad pasts lives, who he was, what his name was an so on during the first watch of the night of his awakening, prior to gaining awakening. You really think during that time he did not recall teachings he received from Buddhas in the past?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Four Dharma Seals
Content:
weitsicht said:
Taken from the Aro Authenticity Debate https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27652&p=431249&hilit=four+seals#p431249

Grigoris said:
Karma Dorje said it already and so did I:  If it conforms to the Four Dharma Seals then it is Dharma.  Whether well-spoken or not.  Fun or not.  Brocaded or not.

weitsicht said:
What are the Four Dharma Seals?
How can they be depicted?
Who authenticates them??

Malcolm wrote:
Hinayāna scriptures do not talk about the four "seals" at all. They do have a regular list of three itemse which excludes nirvana:

All formations ('du byed, samskara) are impermanent.
All formations are suffering.
All phenomena lack a self.

In its earliest usage in Mahāyāna Sūtras, the so called "four seals" were termed the four summaries of the Dharma ( chos kyi mdo bzhi ), and took the following form:

All formations are impermanent.
All formations are suffering.
All phenomena lack a self.
Nirvana is peaceful.

The term the "four seals" comes from the Korean Master Won Chuk's commentary on the Samdhinirmocana Sūtra. He identifies several sources for them, but specifically, the Mahāyānasutrālaṃkāra is the source for the term phyag rgya. However the term "seal" is not a direct translation, and in my opinion has lead to some confusion.

The term dharmoddānacatuṣṭayaṃ was translated into Chinese, from there into Tibetan as chos kyi phyag rgya bzhi in Wong Chuk's treatise. When translated directly from Sanskrit to Tibetan, it is chos kyi sdom ni rnam pa bzhi, i.e. the four constraints of the Dharma.

In reality, we have two terms used in Mahāyāna texts: 1) the four summaries of the Dharma and the four constraints of the Dharma, that latter coming from Mahāyānasutrālaṃkāra.

In my opinion, the term "four constraints" is more useful than "four seals," 1) because it shows us not how this or that teaching should be authenticated as a Dharma teachings with some seal of imprimatur, but rather, within what constraints a Dharma teaching should fall. 2) "Constraint" more accurately reflects the underlying original meaning of the term uddāna because it is derived from Sanskrit-->English, rather than the Sanskrit-->Chinese-->Tibetan-->English. Also, constraint/restraint is a widely accepted usage for translating the term sdom pa in this context.

Going forward, I suggest that we drop the usage "four seals of the Dharma" since it is misleading and not accurate.

Finally, in some presentations the second constraint is listed as "All that is contaminated is suffering," but surprisingly, it is very uncommon in this list which is mentioned through out Mahāyāna sūtras in many places. The reading above is the most common in the Sūtras. In one or two places you see "empty" attached to the third constraint, as in "All phenomena are empty and without a self."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching  he had received from past buddhas.
For example, Greg, who believes the Dharma is some timeless principle, like Plato's forms.

Grigoris said:
Take it up with the Buddha:
An ancient path rediscovered
"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration... I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

— SN 12.65


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Some of Jax's stuff I see on FB from time to time seems pretty well spoken to me.

practitioner said:
I've been reading this thread wondering when he would come up.  I'm curious if he now gets the same benefit of the doubt as the Aro folks?

Malcolm wrote:
Just because I cast complete and total doubt on this fantasy that there is some kind of authority which tells us which groups and teachers are good and which are not should not be construed in any way as my approval of anyone. I think there are a lot of people out there in the spiritual marketplace selling defective wares in all kinds of ways. The most we can say is "Caveat Emptor," and not much more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 10:32 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...For example, Greg, who believes the Dharma is some timeless principle, like Plato's forms....

Quay said:
Is this in anyway related to what I understand to be a Hinayana view on matter and substance, that it reduces ultimately to "partless particles"?

In any case, there are in addition to the Sutras already cited, other texts and teachings which speak about anything being timeless or actually eternal would then be unable to change. Seems to me that would apply to Dharma which at least outwardly has adapted to many cultures and times over the centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
The so-called four-fold summary of the Dharma does not actually define what is Buddhist and what is not for the very simple reason that the Vatsiputriya school, aka, Pudgalavadins, fail the test of the third summary — they asserted an inexpressible self or person that is neither the same as nor different than the aggregates.

But of course, they are still a Buddhist school.

Perhaps a useful topic for another thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 10:28 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Some of Jax's stuff I see on FB from time to time seems pretty well spoken to me.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no accounting for taste.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Not saying anything.

Mantrik said:
Well spoken, Ramana.

Doesn't 'well spoken' have a precise meaning? Sounds like it should have 'Ananda' appended and be Sutric. Not that Sutras are any more verifiable, but stylistically ......

Malcolm wrote:
The phrase has been used to justify accepting statements in non-Buddhist traditions as long as they conform to and do not contradict the Dharma, foe example, encouragements to virtuous and so on. But in the main, it is aimed at Hinayāna monks who criticize Mahāyāna.

People of course know that I think non-Buddhist traditions are not well-spoken in general, but that is just me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Karma Dorje said it already and so did I:  If it conforms to the Four Dharma Seals then it is Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
So then you accept Advaita Vedanta as a valid path of realization leading to Buddhahood.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Not saying anything.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, so this really proves that people just believe whatever they want, without reference to any authority at all. For example, Greg, who believes the Dharma is some timeless principle, like Plato's forms. This really is my whole point and the reason it is so fruitless to get all up in arms about people like Chogyam, and so on unless it can be proven beyond doubt they are harming sentient beings with anything more than the proliferation of delusion, which we do all the time here too. Then we have teachers who teach a Dharma everyone approves of, guys like Sogyal, who seem unstoppable in their ability to actually harm others with impunity.

Just for reference, the Tathāgata's Inconcievable Secret Sūtra ( ārya-tathāgata-acintya-guhya-nirdeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra ) states the purpose of four is as follows:

Guhyapati, the Tathagāta has summarized all Dharmas, presenting the summary of Dharmas as four-fold. What are the four? In order to destroy the idea of permanence in bhikṣus and brahmins who advocate eternalism, and the long-lived devas, it is said, "All formations are impermanent." In order destroy the idea of happiness in devas and humans, it is said, "All formations are suffering." In order to destroy the non-Buddhist assertion of self, it is said, "All phenomena lack self." In order to destroy the strong pride of those engaged in conceptuality, it is said, "Nirvana is peace."

There are many places in sūtras and tantras where these four are discussed. But I think this is one of the best presentations because it shows the four summaries very clearly.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We've just covered this. The Dharma is impermanent, and subject to decay and destruction. It is seems funny to call something subject to decay and destruction "ultimate truth."

Grigoris said:
No it is not.  The conceptualised notion of Dharma is impermanent and subject to decay.  If the Dharma was subject to change, then the Dharmakaya would also be conditioned and impermanent.  And the Tathagatagarbha.  And the gzhi. And the Dharmata.  And...

Malcolm wrote:
It never states in any sūtra or tantra for that matter, that the Dharma, the teaching of the Buddha, is permanent. Maitreyanatha in fact states just the opposite of your opinion.

Confusing dharmatā, etc., with the Dharma is confusing something unconditioned with something conditioned. But since one cannot establish the unconditioned since it never existed, it also makes no sense to claim that unconditioned dharmatā is some sort of stable refuge. Unconditioned dharmatā is just a name for the emptiness of conditioned, impermanent phenomena, and without that latter, there is no dharmatā at all, even conventionally.

Finally, if the Dharma were something permanent, the Buddha would not have spoken of its decline and disappearance, and neither would have Nāgārjuna, Maitreyanatha, and so on in very clear terms. All compounded phenomena are impermanent. The Dharma is compounded. If you imagine the Dharma is permanent you have contravened your own four seals, beginning with the first, "all compounded phenomena are suffering."

The rest as we know as the regularly stated in the sūtras "All compounded phenomena are suffering. All compounded phenomena are empty and lack self. Nirvana is peace."

If you claim the Dharma is permanent and ultimate, this is tantamount to declaring it is not empty and self.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no ultimate truth, ultimately. But go ahead and try to find it. Be my guest.

Grigoris said:
The Dharma is the ultimate truth.  That is why we take Refuge in it.

Malcolm wrote:
We've just covered this. The Dharma is impermanent, and subject to decay and destruction. It is seems funny to call something subject to decay and destruction "ultimate truth."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You have certainly offered nothing as an objective standard for how to know what to accept and what to reject. I don't think you are up to the challenge either.

Grigoris said:
Karma Dorje said it already and so did I:  If it conforms to the Four Dharma Seals then it is Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
So then you accept Advaita Vedanta as a valid path of realization leading to Buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Yeah, but that's just your opinion, and since there is no authority (and no ultimate truth) then your opinion is as valid as that of a dribbling moron.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether in someone's opinion a dribbling moron's opinion is as valid as mine. I have seen all kinds of evidence that people take the opinions of people I think are really stupid and ill-informed as being much more valid than mine.

Strangely, you seem to have reified ultimate truth and authority as inherently existent things, and not the conventions that they are.

There is no ultimate truth, ultimately. But go ahead and try to find it. Be my guest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
You really have to work on this new half-baked theory of yours.  It is sadly lacking.

Malcolm wrote:
You have certainly offered nothing as an objective standard for how to know what to accept and what to reject. I don't think you are up to the challenge either.

There are plenty of Buddhists who think Krishnamurti is a fine fellow and that his teachings are wonderful, some of them are quite famous as well. Are they wrong?

Is Bon a false teaching? If so, why? If not, why?

The list goes on and on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


methar said:
To think that followers of any teaching can some how figure out if their teacher is bona fide is a joke.

Malcolm wrote:
If one cannot figure out if teachers are bonafide, how can one figure out if the teaching is bonafide? You have neatly demonstrated how impossible it is to establish anything with appeals to authority since you have basically affirmed no one can decide what is bonafide and what is not.

That is quite a pickle you have gotten yourself into there, Harold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:


cloudburst said:
Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?

Malcolm wrote:
Ye shes is a quality of rig pa.

cloudburst said:
Thank you.

Further, can one manifest yeshe without manifesting rigpa?
What is it a about rigpa that is not captured by the term 'yeshe'?

Malcolm wrote:
In answer to question one, Rig pa is the means by which ye shes "manifests", though in Dzogchen it is a little strange to parse it that way.

Basically, the basis is considered to be ye shes, that is, the luminous, empty pure nature of the mind, which is not known to us at present.

Recognizing this is rigpa.

There are other ways the term is used which suggest that rig pa itself also also the nature of the mind which is being recognized. Thus, we need to pay attention to the context in which the term is being used in any given text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:


climb-up said:
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.

Malcolm wrote:
And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...

Kunga Lhadzom said:
But.... when they find out they were deceived ...then..........


Malcolm wrote:
One hopes they have long since achieved freedom from suffering, and will forgive such white lies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There are two levels of ye shes, pristine consciousness. The first level is the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis, essence, nature, and energy they are ultimate, unconditioned, etc. Then there are five relative pristine consciousnesses which are something like the rtsal of the basis, which when not recognized are reified as the five elements.

cloudburst said:
Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?

Malcolm wrote:
Ye shes is a quality of rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A friend following this discussion, who does not have an account, sent me some interesting remarks by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche:
"Most people who consider themselves Buddhists do not tend to study what the Buddha himself taught, but instead just imitate one another. I don't know why it is but people just love to imitate one another and follow traditions. Nonetheless, it is not enough to just go around copying how other people act and dress, repeating what others say and do, dressing like yogis and dropping the names of lamas.

"However, the Buddha is not the true saviour or protector, the teachings known as the Dharma are, but you are the one who needs to apply them—hence it comes down to you saving yourself.

"Pondering this then, we must ask ourselves what we can actually place our trust in and rely upon. If we follow this line of reasoning we can see that we cannot even fully rely on the precious Buddha. Forget about our teachers, even the Buddha himself cannot completely protect us. All of the volumes of scriptures in the Buddhist canon cannot protect us. Even if we had a congregation of a thousand ordained monks whom we asked, "Please protect me; I am relying on you!" they couldn't do it, for they cannot grant true everlasting protection. So we really need to think about what it is that we can rely upon and trust completely and utterly with all of our body, heart and soul.

"So what is the true refuge, one that is 100% infallible? In the Buddhist teachings it is taught that one should take refuge in the dharmakaya, one's own mind. This statement is quite significant and contains a lot of meaning, so let me repeat it: you should take refuge in the dharmakaya, the nature of your own mind. The nature of your own mind is the only genuine, true protector; it is the only thing that is truly trustworthy and reliable.

"Don’t accept this just because I say so, instead really question and examine whether this is how things are or not. You must look into it personally and decide for yourself whether it is true or not. We all need to get to the point where we have confidence in ourselves, instead of always placing our trust in others, letting ourselves be led by the hand and just following whatever others say and do."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty simple -- there isn't the slightest bit of empirical evidence that from Mahāyāna onward any of these texts, sūtra and tantras, long oral lineage or short treasure lineage, were indeed spoken by the Buddha and so on.

Based upon this, I really think the standard of accepting and rejecting Buddhist teachings ought to be based not upon their putative origin, but rather, whether or not they are well-spoken.

If someone chooses to believe all the treasures we have received to date, for example, are the words of Padmasambhava, this is just fine. But it is a conscious choice for a Westerner not raised in Tibet in the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions to believe this.

This also presents problems. Many tantras are not "well spoken" if taken literally.  But tantras that might be considered mere manuals of sorcery and necromancy are rendered "well-spoken" through a process interpretive extraction of meaning.

Many treasures are very beautifully composed, and correspond well with the meaning of sūtra and tantra as we have them. Many sadhanas we have, in all schools are well-spoken, beautiful compositions, that correspond well to the interpretative pyrotechnics used to extract the meaningful essence from the raw ore of the tantras.

My personal opinion is that Dzogchen tantras are among the most well-spoken of Buddhist texts, which is one of my main reasons for being enthusiastic about them, and which require almost no need for hermeneutic strategies like the six limits and so on commonly employed to extract meaning from tantras generally understood by western scholars to be composed in India.

When confronted with the things that people like Kim Katami say, or Majorie Quinn, and frankly, many other people advertising themselves as teachers these days, their statements and theories appear to me to very crude and not well stated, not in accord with what I personally understand to be well-spoken.

When confronted with novelties like Kalima as a yidam, it is very hard, as far as I am concerned, to justify her inclusion as yidam deity, as the basis of an authentic Buddhist path. So when Christy McNally is bestowing Kāli empowerments, and Michael Roach is writing Jesus Sadhanas, I personally think it is mistaken. But, obviously no one is listening to me. In the end it is left to each of us to be responsible for own path and practice.

Thus, the concern for proving the provenance of a lineage seems to be like chasing a willow wisp, it is something always just out of grasp, and the force we use to try and catch it, just pushes it slightly more beyond our reach.

In conclusion: the only proof anyone is able to offer for the validity of their own lineage is their own faith in it; and the only proof of the invalidity of some other lineage is their lack of faith in it.

This leads us, sadly, right back to the confusion of the Kalamas and the Buddha's reply:

It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...
I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.

Quay said:
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.

climb-up said:
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.

Malcolm wrote:
And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
DGA said:
Greg, if you are reading this thread still, what do you think of these two posts?


does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, actually.


Grigoris said:
Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?

heart said:
If I remember correctly, at different times he been mentioning Dudjom Rinpoche, CR Lama, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and Kunzang Dorje.
Someone that was a student of LOTR told me LOTR, Lama Dawa, Lama Pema Dorje and other Ngakpas had been teaching to the Aro people in the past.

/magnus

DGA said:
If Magnus is correct, then it seems to me that many of us (most of us?) in the Nyingma sub must have samaya with the same teachers as the Aro folk.  That is not insignificant.


Malcolm wrote:
I have sat in empowerments attended also by Chogyam (Vajrakilaya, HHST, NYC, 1992). That was one reason why I never opened my big mouth about the Chogaym/NYD conflict until 2001 on the Trike boards.   But then, I became indignant, because I thought Aro folk were misusing NYD's name to promote themselves. The rest is history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
No.  But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy.

I'm done with this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, glad you are satisfied. Now go do something more useful with your time than engaging in wild goose chases over true vs. false treasures.

Grigoris said:
It seems not...

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11438&start=40#p148341

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, can you enlighten me as to what that post means to you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).

DGA said:
does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
No.  But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy.

I'm done with this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, glad you are satisfied. Now go do something more useful with your time than engaging in wild goose chases over true vs. false treasures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?

Malcolm wrote:
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.

Grigoris said:
So now there is authority?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they just like his termas, finding them "well-spoken." In terms of his being recognized as a tulku, it has never really been that important to me, though it is important to others, that is why I mention it on occasion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?

Malcolm wrote:
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.

Mantrik said:
People treat Adzom Drugpa's terma sadhanas etc. as valid, so as ChNN is Adzom Drugpa isn't it pretty automatic?


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN kept his termas pretty secret for a very long time. I know for a fact that there are still Nyingma Lamas who think they are fake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?

Grigoris said:
Hypocrisy, not inconsistency.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, Greg, is that you demand proof of validation for Aro ter, but not for your own teacher's termas. That seems contradictory to me.

I still find the idea of Kalima as a Buddhist yidam pretty "novel".  But you clearly don't care a) whether this terma has been credentialed by a credentialing authority, and b) have no interest in any's opinion about it anyway. It makes you happy, so please do as you wish.

I think the Aro people are in much the same position as you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Who, for example, recognised ChNN and his pure visions/terma?

Malcolm wrote:
He was recognized by his uncle, first, then later by the 16th Karmapa.

But in terms of his terma, as far as I know it hasn't been validated but some terma validating authority. But I know some Tibetan Lamas who are very enthusiastic about Mandarava.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
PeterC said:
I think many are surprised to see Malcolm take position #2 given the strong views he has espoused elsewhere as to the invalidity of certain practices, not least in one long discussion he had with you on this topic. Maybe you can see an error of reasoning in his argument here; I can’t.

Grigoris said:
You mean like when he said:  "Honestly, it is a little incredible to me that Tibetan Buddhists who castigate Shugdenpas for holding that a rgyalpo spirit is a buddha, hold up the idea that Durga/Kali, etc., is an acceptable refuge. Have you all lost your minds? Further, can anyone tell me a single sūtra or tantra that upholds the idea that Durga, Kali, etc., are valid refuges? No? I didn't think so."

Or this one:  "Why would anyone want to seek out a teaching of uncertain provenance? This is the whole point. One establishes that a teaching is valid before one engages in it."

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23725&hilit=kali+nagmo#p356093

And all this (and more) about the terma of a recognised teacher (a Loppon none-the-less) from a recognised lineage?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so now LOTR is a terton? I thought this was just a pure vision. Who validated this terma?

BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2018 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


Grigoris said:
Now if I were trying to attack Aro gTer, to demean them, to slander them personally, to cast aspersions on the character of their teachers, etc...  I could understand why somebody would come tho their defence.  But I am not doing that.  I am putting forward commonly accepted (in a Vajrayana context) criteria for authenticity and asking if they satisfy these criteria and NOBODY has made a relevant response.

Malcolm wrote:
Greg, there are no commonly accepted criteria. As I pointed out to you, there are Sakyas and Gelugpas who still reject the treasure tradition in toto. Many excellent scholars in from the 11th to the 14th century and later, wrote rebuttals to various traditions in a form of literature called sngags log sun 'byung, i.e. refuting false mantra. Traditions, texts and persons accused of being spurious and fradulent include Chod/Shijey, the earliest Dzogchen texts (what even need to mention later texts?), the Guhyagarbha Tantra, Guru Chowang by name, and so on.

The basic rebuttal to these polemical attacks comes in the form of this citation by the Buddha from the Sūtra of Encouraging Altruistic Intent (ā rya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra ):

Those bhiḳsus claim, "Generosity and so on, is completely worldly behavior and is not a Dharma taught in the sūtras nor in vinaya. This is not Dharma, so do not give it respect!" Those foolish men do not know that anything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha. Because they have been blessed by Māra, they reject the Dharma of those Dharma-upholding bhikṣus and engage in the karma of rejecting the Dharma. Because they engage in the karma of rejecting the Dharma, they fall into error.

Grigoris said:
Given the lack of evidence, I see no reason why any rational person would conclude that they are authentic.

Malcolm wrote:
In reality, the only evidence one needs to see is whether or not their Dharma, such as it is, is well-spoken.

Grigoris said:
Now it is granted that at the beginning of the terma "tradition" (it was not a tradition when it kicked off) there were no criteria to judge authenticity, but that was two centuries ago.  I think that currently we can agree that there are methods to prove authenticity, albeit subjective.

Malcolm wrote:
Greg, the Treasure tradition is more than a thousand years old. So, I think you must have made a hasty mistake. The earliest Buddhist terton in the Padmasambhava sense of the term was Sangye Lama, who lived in the early 11th century. Bonpo termas also date to this period, with Shenchen Luga's revelations.

In all of that time, there really is no method for proving a treasure is valid or invalid, apart from some respected person expressing their approval of the treasure itself. Though, there have been people trying to act as tertons, who, much to their surprise, revealed boxes of turds because someone caught them out in their act and substituted their treasure for shit.

And even today, in Tibet, there are successful tertons who are accused of being frauds by some, and heralded as buddhas by others. It just isn't a certain enterprise with exacting standards. Even more problematical are pure visions -- for example, Shugden texts and so on are claimed to be a pure vision teaching.

As to your final point, apparently many rational people do conclude the Aro crew are authentic enough, and the proof of this is that they have many followers. Books by Aro people like Dangerous Friend remain popular and in print at Shambhala Pubs, and so on.

All of this attachment to credentials and validation is a māra of gigantic proportions.

I personally could care less if Aro teachings are authentic or not. I don't see you hassling Ivo, or the Flaming Jewel people, or Pema Khandro, and so on, thus your motives in demanding Aro people to prove their authenticity are rather...misguided in my opinion.

When you examine the history of such polemics, their targets tend to ignore the fuss and just continue to do what they do, heedless of their critics. I suspect the Aro folk will do just that. At this point, you are banging your head against a wall of indifference to you or anyone else's opinion about them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:21 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:



methar said:
So you really don't care if Ngak'chang Rinpoche has NOT BEEN RECOGNIZED BY ANYONE BUT HIMSELF?

Malcolm wrote:
Why should I?

methar said:
Malcolm do you really not care that the Aro gTer Nyigma Lineage is just made up by this SELF RECOGNIZED man?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, not a bit. I used to care, but then I realized that was a mistake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:14 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


methar said:
Aroter is not an "existential threat" it is a REAL THREAT to the real teachings of the Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Only in the minds of children who still imagine there are monsters under their beds.

methar said:
Really Malcolm, thats all you got.???

Don't want to discuss a SELF RECOGNIZED TULKU AND HIS SELF RECOGNIZED LINEAGE?

REALLY????

Vacant Dude just vacant.:

Malcolm wrote:
Harold, take a pill and calm down. You clearly have not been reading my posts. Or if you have, you have not understood them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:06 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Dude, you are, like, totally planting the seeds for fundamentalism in your own mind.

PeterC said:
But isn’t fundamentalism totally valid, too?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but I am not going to hang out with you if you go that route.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:05 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
PeterC said:
I’m struggling a bit with the extreme relativist position here. Not because of its logical consistency or inconsistency - more because of its practical implications.

If you take it purely at face value then you would conclude that, say, Kim Katami might be on the 8th bhumi, Dominic Geshe Rinpoche might be an enlightened teacher rather than a fraud, and Christie MacNally may have revealed a valid Kali empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
But people do conclude such things, and they do so every day. We understand that Kim Katami's strange notions about bhumis do not correspond to anything taught in any Dharma text with which we are familiar. It is an issue mainly of doxographical consistency, in his case.

Marjorie Quinn, as far as I can tell, as well as Katami, both have rather serious personality disorders.

Kālima empowerments seem to be growing in popularity in some Buddhist circles. It is a trend worth observing.

PeterC said:
We might be unable to *prove* that the Aro terma wasn’t made up in the pub after a long evenings drinking. But that doesn’t mean we just accept everything as potentially and equally valid because we cannot prove otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't have to accept anything that does not conform to our own judgement. Everything we accept, we accept based on our own judgement. There really is no way around this.

PeterC said:
We know there are and always have been frauds out there, and these frauds are extremely harmful if followed.  I recall Malcolm referring to a certain type of unqualified guru as a “serial killer of disciples” not long ago.

Malcolm wrote:
I had in mind a certain type of guru who harms their disciples willfully, with no regard for them as human beings. Sociopaths in robes, in other words. The cat guru with mouse disciples comes to mind.

PeterC said:
Equally there are observable features that increase our confidence in a revealed teaching.  Conformance to basic buddhavacana is one. Acceptance by other prominent teachers is another.  Existence of notable practitioners who have practiced it and confirm that its good is a third. These are all forms of appeals to authority.



Malcolm wrote:
Obviously, not everyone feels the same way, otherwise there would be no other religions in the world apart from the one we think is "valid" because it conforms to our expectations, needs, and our limited ability to reason.

PeterC said:
But if we accept no authority, we are ultimately left with nothing. Why, then, follow any teacher or do any practice

Malcolm wrote:
.

And, Peter, I did set forth the only authority that actually matters -- one's own opinion. If we follow a teacher, it is because we decide it is of value. If we practice, we decide it is of value. No one else can decide these things for us. Correct? So obviously it follows that the only authority that matters in matters of religion is ourselves. And further, if we think someone is a fraud, it is merely because we think so, there is actually no objective standard for determining such things, other than if someone claims they are Buddhist for example, but starts arguing that permanent functional phenomena are a core teaching of the Buddha. Obviously this can be rejected because it does not correspond to Buddhist doxography. But this merely is by comparison with what it says in this text, as opposed to claims someone might be making about what Buddhism asserts. It is merely a question of dogmatic rigor.

With respect to the treasure tradition, there is no source of doxographical consistency that permits one to know that this terma is true and this one is false, apart from a) embarrassing a prospective terton by putting shit in his terma cache if he is going to reveal a terma in public; b) proving that this or that terma violates general Buddhist dogma, 3) relying on the opinion of some elder. whose opinion one has subjectively decided to follow for this or that reason.

If someone proclaims they have a Dharma that, in all truth cannot be found to contradict the basic teachings of the Buddha, it becomes increasingly difficult to reject their claim to be promulgating a legitimate teachings if it never contradicts what we understand the Buddha's teachings to be, in other words, if it is corresponds to the dogmas we accept as Buddhism.

PeterC said:
There has to be some basic motivation for our choice of practice lineage beyond “I had a special feeling about it” (although that seems to be the main criterion for many practitioners today).

Malcolm wrote:
We are suffering, we look for a solution, we follow one that is suited to our proclivitie, and try to measure up the doxographical standards we think it sets forth. That is all. There is absolutely nothing objective about such choices.

PeterC said:
This doesn’t have to be unassailable logic, just reasonable evidence that leads you to conclude that its a better use of of your time than practicing something else or practicing nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, people who folllow Aroter think that pursuing these teachers and their teachings are a reasonable use of their time -- and since no one has produced any evidence whatsoever that they are teaching something which does not on all major points conform to the Dharma as we all understand it, then basically, critics of Aro are suffering from the fallacy of originalism: that is, the fallacy of claiming that of two teachings which conform to each other on all major points, one is valid and the other is false because we approve of the origin of the former and not of the latter.

PeterC said:
Between unassailable, definitive proof and completely arbitrary preference there is a large spectrum of relative confidence.  Just because we can’t get to unassailable proof doesn’t mean we should discard everything in between.

Malcolm wrote:
We have not discarded anything, rather we have discovered  a personal responsibility in that we ourselves alone are the only authority for any decision we make wth respect to religion. Why else do you think separation of Church and State is such a crucial doctrine of the modern, liberal state?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:


methar said:
Aroter is not an "existential threat" it is a REAL THREAT to the real teachings of the Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Only in the minds of children who still imagine there are monsters under their beds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 9:55 AM
Title: Re: USA CLOSED FOR BUSINESS
Content:
amanitamusc said:
This is a nice distraction from trumps many problems coming to fruition.

Ricky said:
Don't know about that... US economy is booming. Unemployment is at its lowest since 1973.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks to Obama...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 9:16 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Quay said:
Kindly pardon me if I'm not correct in this, but it does seem you are not fully familiar with what an appeal to authority is. As Malcolm just noted if you both accept the authority then there is no logical fallacy in appealing to it. Further, the appeal to authority fallacy is actually about an appeal to false authority and using such an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.

Generally speaking, in a section titled Tibetan Buddhism an appeal to the text of Maitreyanatha simply does not meet the definition of the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority.

Grigoris said:
If, according to earlier posts by our friend Malcolm,  everything is just opinion.  Then there is no such thing as an authority.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no authority beyond one's personal opinion, this is true.

Grigoris said:
In the meantime:  Can you please show me the facts in Maitreyanatha's statement?

"the Muni has the dharmakaya"?

For example?

Sounds more like an opinion to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but if you agree, than for you this opinion is authoritative.

Grigoris said:
So he has to make up his mind:  either there is truth and authority (albeit arrived at collectively), or there is no truth and authority.

Malcolm wrote:
A collective authority is just a bunch of people who have gathered together and agreed to hold the same opinions to be true.

Grigoris said:
This idea that he can have truth and authority when it suits him, is rather unsavoury and stinks of hypocrisy (rather than inconsistency).

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry to break it to you, but notions like "truth" and "authority" are merely conventions, and flimsy ones at that when it comes to the domain of religion. When you follow a religion, all you have is your own opinion that "this is true and this is false" since the most basic metaphysical principles in a religion can neither be proven nor disproven by conventional means at all— not god, not karma, not rebirth, not even awakening. The arrogant supposition that these things can be proven is one of the chief reasons people turn into fundamentalist ninnies who madly wave sutras at each other in Buddhism, and other scriptures in other religions.

And when it comes to empirical validation, then, it is pretty stupid to say gravity does not function near an entity that has sufficient mass to attract objects to it, since these things can be easily verified by anyone with a bit of math and observation. Now, remind me, just what was the math that irrefutably demonstrates karma and rebirth?

Now, we can certainly agree, for example, that Maitreyanatha expressed a position, an opinion, that the only true refuge was the Buddha since he possesses the dharmakāya. But no one at all, not even Maitreyanatha, can prove the Buddha indeed had such a possession. it is just dogma. Dogma is fun, but it never liberated anyone from afflictions.

People who believe "truth" and "authority" as ultimate principles just plant the seeds for fundamentalism in their own minds. Ultimately, there is no truth and no authority, and in terms of conventional truths and authorities, we pick the ones we like, and we reject the ones we don't like. Hopefully the conventions and truths we pick are not harmful to ourselves or others.

And having said that, I still cannot see for the life of me why the existence of Aroter is such an existential threat to some Buddhists on this board. They are not harming anyone, and as far as I know, they all accept rebirth, dependent origination, karma, Padmsambhava, Samantabhadra, Buddha and so on as meaningful. Who cares if some of their deities look like something out of Pirates of the Caribbean? Most Buddhists in the world, who have an opinion about it, think that Vajrayāna just a bunch of made-up corrupt, crypto-Hindu bullshit anyway, further corrupted by Tibetan shamanism.  And some on this board really are throwing stones while inhabiting glass houses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: USA CLOSED FOR BUSINESS
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
But a government shutdown is always quite temporary, and is mostly a form of political theater.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yep. this...reality TV.

Malcolm wrote:
Now, if they shutdown the newspapers, I would start to be seriously worried and probably start packing my bags and cashing out my account. But a Government shutdown? Meh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: USA CLOSED FOR BUSINESS
Content:
Mantrik said:
I understand from our UK media that the USA currently has no Government.

Malcolm wrote:
Ahem...that is not exactly true. The Government has not authorized spending, and some people will get furloughs if the "shutdown" goes on beyond this weekend.

But a government shutdown is always quite temporary, and is mostly a form of political theater.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.

Grigoris said:
You just appealed to authority and, like you said:  "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."

Malcolm wrote:
If we both accept a text as an authority, then appeals to authority work quite well, as long as we both agree they are authoritative. But if we don't agree a text is an authority, there is no point in citing a text because there is no basis for agreement, for example, citing Buddhist texts at Christians, or Nichiren Buddhits citing Nichiren at Tibetan Buddhists, or even Nyingmapas citing terma texts at Gelugpas.

So, if you do not accept Maitreyanatha as an authority, than just say so. And if you do, what is the problem?
BTW, you cannot really cite ultimate truth as an authority, since the ultimate truth is just the nonestablishment and absence of true existence of conventional phenomena. In the ultimate, there is nothing to establish or reject.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.

Grigoris said:
You just appealed to authority and, like you said:  "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."

Malcolm wrote:
If we both accept a text as an authority, then appeals to authority work quite well, as long as we both agree they are authoritative. But if we don't agree a text is an authority, there is no point in citing a text because there is no basis for agreement, for example, citing Buddhist texts at Christians, or Nichiren Buddhits citing Nichiren at Tibetan Buddhists, or even Nyingmapas citing terma texts at Gelugpas.

So, if you do not accept Maitreyanatha as an authority, than just say so. And if you do, what is the problem?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Quay said:
No, Dharma is simply another fabrication. The difference though between it and most everything else is that it is not an untrue fabrication.

Grigoris said:
No.  The conceptualisation of Dharma by the mind is a fabrication, Dharma is unconditioned.  Otherwise it would not be a valid object of Refuge.

Malcolm wrote:
And as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Well, if this thread has taught me one thing, it is the danger of denying the validity of relative truth. How quickly and easily denying it's validity leads to ego-centered nihilism.

Malcolm wrote:
So you think you can prove the conventional validity of one lineage over another when they both use identical words? Good luck with that.

If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
Lucas Oliveira said:
3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, supposedly the Buddha gained power over his life force, but because Ananda was a slouch, he neglected to ask the Buddha to stick around for a thousand years, and so the Buddha died three months later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Εxcellent, so now I can validly quote anything I want as an expression of Dharma.  No more eternalists and nihilists, no more tirthika, Dharma is now anything I want it to be.  Buddhism is now whatever-feels-good New Ageism!

Somehow, I don't think so.

Malcolm wrote:
This is how Theravadins feel about Mahāyanis. This is how Mahāyanis feel about Vajrayana. This is how Vajaryāna feels about Atiyoga.

Basically, the state of Buddhism today is that everyone feels everyone else is full of shit and deluded.

But as the Buddha noted in the Sutta Nipatta, the tongue is like a two-headed axe, as likely to hurt the person wielding it as it as the person it is used on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I like Machik Labdron's point of view, and I really think it applies to everyone, especially me:


Since the Dharma is practiced with a clinging mind
because the mind that clings to Dharma is not destroyed,
even the Dharma becomes a support of bondage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?

Malcolm wrote:
Chogyal Namkahi Norbu and I were in his cabin once, and he showed me a picture of a Tibetan man, who with his siddhi had supposedly planted a wooden staff in a cliff face. He said, "I can do that too, if you give me a bucket of concrete...he he he."

Seriously, if one is an ārya in the equipoise of nondual emptiness, then such things are supposedly possible. There is a famous tale about Candrakirti being jeered by a student for bumping his head into a pillar at Nalanda, Candra then passed his hand right through that pillar and the student became embarrassed.

I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.

florin said:
But what do you make of the example that CNNR sometimes gives where someone who is very familiar with integration could in case of thirst just visualize white light and reintegrate with the essence of water ? Of course this probably happens very very late on the path and to very few , but still...
Based on this same principle why would not be possible to regenerate or replenish lets say the damaged or lack of fire  essence in a given organ just by either visualizing the colour of the fire or by lighting a fire nearby resting in the primordial state and  integrating with the essence of fire ?
These types of examples play hand in hand with my first question regarding whether the regeneration is possible while resting in the primordial state.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Florin, that is a good question.

There are two levels of ye shes, pristine consciousness. The first level is the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis, essence, nature, and energy they are ultimate, unconditioned, etc. Then there are five relative pristine consciousnesses which are something like the rtsal of the basis, which when not recognized are reified as the five elements.

Someone who is very advanced in the second vision, or in the third vision, may very well be able to live merely off the five pristine consciousnesses through dharmakāya chulen. I would not count on anyone else being able to match this accomplishment who has not reached a high level of practice of thogal, as in the case of Nyala Pema Dudul who lived off dharmakāya chulen in the manner you are suggesting. He only managed to do this for a few years before attaining the body of light, or so we are told.

In tregchod there is no integration with the elements in this way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?

jake said:
I just want to ask. Am I the only one that googled "Marjorie Quinn" and was really confused as to why Malcolm reference Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman?

Malcolm wrote:
That's pretty funny -- Marjorie Quinn is the original name of the women who nows goes by the name Domo Geshe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.

Grigoris said:
I didn't ask if people feel or do not feel blessings, I asked if the texts lack blessing.

Malcolm wrote:
And I answered you per the following:


Grigoris said:
As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.

Malcolm wrote:
Then why did you bring it up as a measure of the "Buddhist" validity of Bon texts?
Dzoki said Aro treasures have no blessings, because he is apparently well versed in ascertaining such things, so I thought examining some possibilities about "blessings" was relevant, since people are always saying, This lineage has blessings," "this lineage has lost its blessings," "this lineage has no blessings," and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?

Malcolm wrote:
Chogyal Namkahi Norbu and I were in his cabin once, and he showed me a picture of a Tibetan man, who with his siddhi had supposedly planted a wooden staff in a cliff face. He said, "I can do that too, if you give me a bucket of concrete...he he he."

Seriously, if one is an ārya in the equipoise of nondual emptiness, then such things are supposedly possible. There is a famous tale about Candrakirti being jeered by a student for bumping his head into a pillar at Nalanda, Candra then passed his hand right through that pillar and the student became embarrassed.

I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye.  In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.


Malcolm wrote:
Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.

Grigoris said:
Well, I hope you apply this attitude to other groups and traditions too and don't restrict it just to the specific one.

Malcolm wrote:
I reserve the right to be completely inconsistent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?

Grigoris said:
One could then ask:  Do Hindu and Abrahamic (and etc...) texts lack blessings?

If you say yes then you are asserting that there is an objective measure/standard (Dharma as the source of blessings), so this extreme subjectivism you are engaging in is invalid.

If you say no, then there is no Dharma, and anything goes.

Malcolm wrote:
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.

As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
that your support for the authenticity of Aro gTer is also based on your own jaundiced eye.  In which case you just hoisted yourself on your own petard.


Malcolm wrote:
Who ever said I supported it's validity. I am just tired of seeing people beating them up over and over again for no better reason other than to exercise their own prejudices and to confirm their own egos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Pero said:
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?
I doubt it was as simple as that. In this case even if copies, most likely to get them someone had to actually receive the original and then made a copy.

Malcolm wrote:
The usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?

Pero said:
LOL! When you put it like that it sounds kind of bad haha. But I think this also is not as simple as that.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, well, exactly, the Aro thing is not as simple as that either. In the early days, it pretty much was that simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
florin said:
First, is there such a thing and  second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on  our mundane worldly  situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.


Malcolm wrote:
The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.

florin said:
CNNR calls it a "state", primordial state.
"....and rest in that state", remember ?

Isnt "regeneration" a quality?

Malcolm wrote:
He has also called the basis "George." So rest in George and see what happens.

Seriously though, the basis is unconditioned, your body and mind are conditioned. The unconditioned has no effect on the conditioned, and vice versa. If you are capable of resting in the basis, you do not need to regenerate your body at all. But if resting in the basis could regenerate the body, than no buddha would have ever gone to parinirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...
The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.

Pero said:
However, wouldn't with this logic empowerments and lungs be rendered meaningless?

Malcolm wrote:
Let's take the example of Bonpo traditions: knock off forgeries or authentic Dharma with a valid lineage. What is your opinion?

Pero said:
I just copy an empowerment from a text I found somewhere and start bestowing it, people believe it as genuine, voila, blessings.

Malcolm wrote:
This is exactly, precisely, the very thing Sakya Paṇḍita accused Nyingmapas of doing, that is, finding old books in the ground for which the they did not have the transmission, and just bestowing the empowerments anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state
Content:
florin said:
First, is there such a thing and  second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on  our mundane worldly  situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.


Malcolm wrote:
The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
methar said:
"Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?"

Well Malcolm It has everything to do with Aro and other questionable lineages.

It has to do with the after mat of the devastating damage to these souls.

Some have spent decades before discovering the truth and that truth can utterly destroy them and turn them from the dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Harold, Marjorie clearly has a personality disorder, in my opinion.

But you clearly are not paying attention to the fact one person's questionable lineage is another persons Dharma tradition. So far, no one has produced one, single shred of evidence the Aro folks are teaching a dharma that contradicts the Dharma.

For example, lets take the Bonpo teaching -- is this valid Dharma or not? We can see that point for point Bonpos teach everything we find in Buddhism. If we think it is a copy, is it invalid because it is a copy, even though the meaning is the same in every way, through and through? If the meaning is the same, why won't the result be the same? If the copy is invalid, how can the original be valid? And if the original is valid, how can a copy be invalid if the meaning, point for point, is the same in every respect?

The same thing goes with Aro -- let us suppose it is just a copy of Nyingma termas -- let us suppose they have the seven line prayer revealed as part of the supposed treasures of an Aro Lingma of questionable historicity. Let us also suppose that these Aroistas chant this Aro seven line prayer, identical in every respect with the original apart from lineage, with total faith and devotion in Guru Rinpoche, and so on. Are you or any one else seriously claiming they will receive no blessings at all from this faithful copy? On the face of it, it is a claim that not only borders on the absurd, it falls headlong into absurdity.It is also a claim rooted in a pernicious fundamentalism we really should eradicate from Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Harold, what the hell does Marjorie Quinn have to do with Aro?

methar said:
Simon E. wrote

"Sorry, not interested in scary stories, woo-woo capitalisation and slippery slope fallacies..
My advice would be in good fath and based on the visible and obvious fruits of the practices of the Aro students I have met.

How about KARMA Simon E?

"My advice would be in good faith" but not "good FACT".

Check out the "Gelug" form under "Norbu House".

Read about the former monk who spent years following a totally FAKE LAMA.

When he was still a monk he and other followers would have told you that this Lama and her Tulku lineage was totally legit.

He and his fellow monks, nuns and lay followers would have total you all these great stories about their beloved "Domo Geshe Rinpoche".

Simon E stated, "based on the visible and obvious fruits of the practices of the Aro students I have met'.

Now he and other ex monks and nuns and followers must pick up the pieces of their shatter lives.

What about the people who still follow this FAKE TULKU?

What will their KARMA be in this life and their NEXT?

What will your KARMA be Simon E for your advice about Aro?

"Sorry, not interested in scary stories...", maybe you should be!!!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
fckw said:
By the way: Some Buddhist consider the whole Vajrayana tradition as not in accord with Buddhism. So, ultimately, things remain difficult...

Malcolm wrote:
This is why The Madman's Middle Way should be required reading in all Dharma centers and for all Tibetan Buddhists. It has been my constant companion for more than a decade. Read carefully, it really should put an end to the "authenticity wars" in Tibetan Buddhism. In short, everything is just based on our own damn opinion.

Actually, it should be required reading for all Buddhists in every school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2018 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
fckw said:
By the way: Some Buddhist consider the whole Vajrayana tradition as not in accord with Buddhism. So, ultimately, things remain difficult...

Malcolm wrote:
This is why The Madman's Middle Way should be required reading in all Dharma centers and for all Tibetan Buddhists. It has been my constant companion for more than a decade. Read carefully, it really should put an end to the "authenticity wars" in Tibetan Buddhism. In short, everything is just based on our own damn opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How do you know his termas are fake? What is your basis for such an evaluation? Are they inconsistent with the meaning of the Dharma in general? Is there some teaching within them that contradicts Buddhadharma specifically? If yes, what specifically? If no, then what is the problem?

fckw said:
Well, I don't want to take sides in this discussion and also not their tantric terma teachings. However, there are certainly some very unusual, let's call them, interpretations of Dzogchen teachings that in my eyes are so far off, that I would no longer consider them Buddha-dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
That is totally your prerogative.


https://approachingaro.org/romance said:
Take this for example: Dzogchen men-ngak-dé is largely concerned with practices of “viewing as.” the Aro gTér teaches “viewing one’s lover as a Buddha” in men-ngak-dé style.
Seriously? Viewing one's lover mengakde style? What sort of Dzogchen teaching is this supposed to be, and what is it supposed to mean? Don't get me wrong: There MIGHT potentially be value in such a teaching or view or practice or whatever it is, but in my eyes it just cannot be rightfully called Dzogchen anymore.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, that is your "valid knowledge" with your "adamantine scripture" to support it.

I am not recruiting for Aro, I am just saying that the indignant and self-righteous denunciations to which I have also contributed in the past are lame, boring, and unkind, since they really have no basis at all in anything other than opinionated bias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I dig. Maybe I'll give that Pema Khandro Rinpoche another chance!


Malcolm wrote:
Feel free. At least she has taken the pains to acquire a solid academic foundation in Buddhist Studies —— that is always encouraging.

When we harbor suspicions about all these fruiting bodies sprouting from invisible rhizomes in the field of Buddhism, the first point is "who the frack are they kidding." But if in the end they harm no one, do not sexually harass, emotionally or financially abuse their students, well, in reality, who are we to criticize them?

So as I said, if you want to be in insect for her, go right ahead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Content:
Grigoris said:
And let's just run a quick rational review of the situation:

Aro gTer have no lineage.  No amount of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque logical fallacies can deny this.

The terma has not be ratified/certified/recognised by anybody other than it's writer and thus it's legitimacy is questionable.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not like there is a treasure ratification committee. Treasures are "ratified" because a highly respected person reviews the text by various means and decides it is good. But it is all based on the chain of authority that ends with one's own personal decision to accept or reject this or that teaching as "true or false."

This is the position the entire treasure tradition finds itself: the first well known terton, Nyangral Nyima Ozer, was not "authenticated" by anyone, and was roundly criticized by those outside his circle of disciples, and others with whom he associated who were also involved in treasure revelations.

For example, in his composition of the Indian biography of Padmasambhava, Jetsun Taranatha laughs at people who accept treasure biographies like the Life of the Lotus Born ( bzang gling ma ), and so on.

Nyang's successor, Guru Chowang, too was roundly criticized in 13th century Tibet for just making things up. Guru Chowang was not recognized by anyone as the reincarnation of Nyang Ral, he just went around and started telling people that he was Nyang Ral's incarnation. At that time, the treasure tradition was just getting a head of steam. Guru Chowang, BTW, is the original terton of the Seven Line Prayer that you chant everyday.

Much later on, Dili Terton, aka Dudjom Lingpa, without any teacher at all started writing down termas. But no one told him to go ahead and reveal treasures, and no one formally recognized him as the incarnation of Kathog Duddul Dorje.

Nyala Chanchub Dorje, ChNN's guru, just started revealing treasures, no one told him to. No one ratified his treasures, and they were largely unknown to anyone outside his direct circle of disciples in his region of Kham. He was well known as a physician, not a terton.

The reason I point all this out is that stating something is questionable value because it was not "ratified" by anyone in fact even applies to Mahāyāna sūtras in general, and the tantras as well.

You see, Greg, the only reason you accept the treasure tradition as valid that you have decided to do so, and since  you have decided for yourself this or that treasure was a valid teaching, you seek it out.

You can try and claim that you accept these as valid because it was ratified by this or that person, but even here, you are accepting this person's authority purely on the basis of your own opinions about what to accept and what to reject. The same goes for Dhogyal, its followers, and detractors as well.And that same is true for Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and so on  There is no objective authority in these matters, no objective standard by which we can confirm at the outset "this one is true, this one is false" apart from examining the teachings themselves to see if their meaning is in accord with the Dharma. Sometimes we decide that this or that does not conform to the meaning, sometimes we do. But it is all based on our personal opinions. The idea that it is based on any thing else is ridiculous.

Even more problematical is the notion that false termas contain no blessings. Let us say for example, someone reveals some "mind" treasure, in every respect conforming with the meaning of sūtra, tantra, and atiyoga. It however is denounced as false because the terton's character is suspect, etc. What does it mean to say that a treasure has no blessings? From the point of view of some Sakyas and Gelugpas, the treasure tradition in general lacks blessings completely because even though the meaning of the teaching may conform perfectly, there is no continuous lineage which can be traced back to an Indian master, and ultimately, to the Buddha.


Grigoris said:
This leaves us with one more important factor that can lend legitimacy to Aro gTer, or put an end to this pointless debate:  Who is Doc's teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
His gurus include HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizin, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje RInpoche, CR Lama, etc., but his root guru is the late Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, who composed the Tummo section of the Khandro Thugthig.

Grigoris said:
Who was the person that gave Doc permission to teach (let alone reveal terma)?  I searched their site and found no information, except some vague references to their undeniably fake lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
As pointed out above, many tertons just start revealing termas without being told they should reveal termas. The usual procedure is to reveal them, and then practice them for many years in secrecy. Only when signs of their efficacy arise, do tertons in general start promulgating their revelations. But their efficacy can only be proven by practicing them oneself, and attaining awakening. So too, the only way to prove them false is to practice them and fail to attain awakening.

Grigoris said:
Undeniable, because the onus is on the people making the claim to prove it true, something which has not been done.

Malcolm wrote:
Can you provide anything more than anecdotal evidence that any treasure is "valid?" Apart from personally engaging in their practice themselves, the only pramāṇa, authority or valid cognition, upon which one may rely upon for authenticating treasures is śabdapramāṇa, the authority that depends on the testimony of a reliable witness. But in that case, how does one establish the witness as an authority?

In the end, śabdapramāṇa amounts to no more than this, as the great Dzogchen master and scholar, Gendun Chophel remarks:

Whatever most people like appears as the truth; whatever most mouths agree on appears as a philosophical tenet. Inside of each person is a different form of valid knowledge, with an adamantine scripture supporting it.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 63.

And:

Inferential valid knowledge is produced from direct awareness; inference analyzes whether direct perception is true or false; because the child is serving as the father's witness, I am uncomfortable about positing conventional validity.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 62

And finally, to demonstrate the poverty of your wish for a certain proof that anything can be proven to be true or false with respect to validating a treasure and any other teaching at all:

One may think:"We concede that our decisions are unreliable, but when we follow the decisions of the Buddha, we are infallible." Then who decided the Buddha was infallible? If you say, "The great scholars and adepts like Nāgārjuna decided that he was infallible," then who decided that Nāgārjuna was infallible? If you say, "The Foremost Lama [Tshong kha pa] decided it," then who knows that the Foremost Lama is infallible? If you say, "Our kind and peerless lama, the excellent and great so and so decided," than infallibility, which depends on your own excellent lama, is decided by your own mind. In fact, therefore, it is a tiger who vouches for a lion, it is a yak who vouches for a tiger, it is a dog who vouches for a yak, it is a mouse who vouches for a dog, it is an insect who vouches for a mouse. Thus, an insect is made the final voucher for them all. Therefore, when one analyzes in detail the final basis for any decision, apart from coming back to one's own mind, nothing else whatsoever is perceived.

Madman's Middle Way, pp. 49-50

So your demand that the Aro people prove their treasures are valid is really quite foolish, and your denunciation of their teachings is based solely on your own jaundiced eye.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
All because Malcolm had some sort of epiphany and is now grovelling to seek favor from people that he was once hurling fecal matter at?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you seem fully committed to hurling shit in my place. Carry on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: -ise vs -ize
Content:
Simon E. said:
However, Captain Beefheart wants to Booglarize Ya Baby....

DGA said:
It works best on West German TV.  "a right burlesque title..."



IMO it's the weakest track on what must be Beefheart's strongest album.

I can and sometimes do listen to this crap all day long.


Malcolm wrote:
I believe it. I have seen your facial hair.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.

Grigoris said:
huh.jpg

Malcolm wrote:
Now you're meditating with gas...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Grigoris said:
You don't care if it sounds like you are calling SDR a hypocrite?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Intelligent people will understand that I am not saying that, and stupid people are not my problem.

philji said:
Why are stupid people not your problem.. are only intelligent ones worthy of enlightenment?

Malcolm wrote:
How did you get there?

Nope. Intelligent people will understand that I am not saying that, and stupid people are not my problem.

Grigoris said:
Oh, okay, I get it:  anybody that misinterprets your post because of it's lack of clarity is stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
gyamtsotrinle said:
oh,..I am sorry, this was not my intention to spread this discussion to the little bit different direction. I just want to only know where is he now. Not whether 16.Karmapa is like that or that. and so on. (anyway for me he is buddha, and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is buddha for some of you) I am apolozige.

Malcolm wrote:
This is standard DW. Totally discursive entertainment for the discerning consumer of Dharma drama.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I find that as I get older, I tend to prefer apophatic practice; but certainly when I was younger in the Dharma, I was very enthusiastic about cataphatic practices (Greg, this is your cue to lecture me about misusing Greek words).

I do like practicing Chö liturgies though.



dzogchungpa said:
Well, Chö is a very phatic practice, if you catch my drift.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, singing pretty liturgies accompanied with a drum and bell is pretty phatic. But I emphatically insist that Chö itself requires no phat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
& how about the faith that Patrul rinpoche elucidates in WOMPT, or Jigme lingpa's presentation for that matter (4 levels). "Vivid faith, Eager faith, and confident faith".

""Just as taking refuge opens the gateway to all teachings and practices it is faith that opens the gateway to taking refuge " (P171)"


Vivid faith -- "" the faith that is inspired in us by thinking of the immense compassion of the Buddhas and great teachers."(172). "
"We might experience this kind of faith on visiting a temple containing many representations of the buddha's body, speech, and mind, or after an encounter with  a great teacher or spiritual friend we have just met personally or whose qualities or life-story we have heard described."

Eager faith -- "Eager faith is our eagerness to be free of the sufferings of the lower realms" (172)

Confident faith ""It is total trust in the Three Jewels alone that comes from the knowledge that they are the only unfailing refuge" (Patrul rinpoche 172). "

Malcolm wrote:
Of the Three Jewels, Maitreyanatha tells us in the Uttaratantra, the only true refuge is the dharmakāya. So in my arrogance, I consider that to be my refuge, when we talk about the Three Jewels.

As for these other objects, if they make one's mind clear, and less afflicted, they are positive. But we Buddhists turn buddhas into demons all the time because of our clinging and attachment. I see it here somewhat frequently and am also guilty as charged.

Sonam Wangchug said:
As far as the Outer, inner, and secret guru is concerned, there is no hierarchy where one is higher/better than the other.

& according to the 3rd jamgon kongtrul rinpoche, it is actually not appropriate to separate them. (since these aspects are inseparable)

To be fair, if arguing from the perspective of the Uttaratantra then all aspects of the Buddha are not compounded phenomena, even the buddhas body (major and minor marks). Shentongpa's will go so far as to say all of the major and minor marks are fully present within everyone even if not perceived. However I am not interested in that debate, just throwing it out there.

Malcolm wrote:
But from the aspect of the Prajñāpāramitā, as we know, whoever perceives a tathāgata through marks is not perceiving the tathāgata at all, to quote Conze's Diamond Sūtra translation:


The Lord continued: 'What do you think, Subhuti, can the Tathagata be seen by the possession of his marks?' Subhuti replied: 'No indeed, O Lord. And why? What has been taught by the Tathagata as the possession of marks, that is truly a no-possession of no-marks.' The Lord said: 'Wherever there is possession of marks, there is fraud, wherever there is no-possession of no-marks there is no fraud. Hence the Tathagata is to be seen from no marks as marks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:


Malcom said:
One does not start a sadhana, for example, beginning with pure vision.

marting said:
Yeah, you do.

Jeez, the internet...


Malcolm wrote:
No, you don't. You start a sadhana from the state of emptiness free from proliferation.

Prior to that, in one's ordinary impure form, one goes for refuge, generates bodhicitta, and generates merit on the pure and impure merit fields.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
pemachophel said:
"It will not become pure by imagining one's guru is a buddha." (italics mine)

agreed. it becomes pure by recognizing, i.e., directly experiencing, one's guru is Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
One will never actually recognize that one's guru is a Buddha until one discovers buddhahood within oneself.

This is a profound point of Atiyoga, the rest is all play for children.

Being a child, I like to play a lot. I much prefer it to work.

Sonam Wangchug said:
However, viewing ones guru as a Buddha is a helpful condition in discovering buddhahood within oneself. That is why in Lama naljor for example the lama is not visualized in their "ordinary" form. ( in case there are concepts the lama in his "ordinary form" is not the buddha)

Malcolm wrote:
And there are guru yogas where one does not visualize anything at all with five or more limbs. I tend to resort to the former more. I find that as I get older, I tend to prefer apophatic practice; but certainly when I was younger in the Dharma, I was very enthusiastic about cataphatic practices (Greg, this is your cue to lecture me about misusing Greek words).

I do like practicing Chö liturgies though.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
I understand faith according to its basic definition provided by the Kośa: "śraddha (dad pa) is a mental factor that brings clarity to the mind." I don't have much use for faith beyond that. I do respect other's faith, but not when they use it as an argument in a discussion.
& how about the faith that Patrul rinpoche elucidates in WOMPT, or Jigme lingpa's presentation for that matter (4 levels). "Vivid faith, Eager faith, and confident faith".

""Just as taking refuge opens the gateway to all teachings and practices it is faith that opens the gateway to taking refuge " (P171)"


Vivid faith -- "" the faith that is inspired in us by thinking of the immense compassion of the Buddhas and great teachers."(172). "
"We might experience this kind of faith on visiting a temple containing many representations of the buddha's body, speech, and mind, or after an encounter with  a great teacher or spiritual friend we have just met personally or whose qualities or life-story we have heard described."

Eager faith -- "Eager faith is our eagerness to be free of the sufferings of the lower realms" (172)

Confident faith ""It is total trust in the Three Jewels alone that comes from the knowledge that they are the only unfailing refuge" (Patrul rinpoche 172). "

Malcolm wrote:
Of the Three Jewels, Maitreyanatha tells us in the Uttaratantra, the only true refuge is the dharmakāya. So in my arrogance, I consider that to be my refuge, when we talk about the Three Jewels.

As for these other objects, if they make one's mind clear, and less afflicted, they are positive. But we Buddhists turn buddhas into demons all the time because of our clinging and attachment. I see it here somewhat frequently and am also guilty as charged.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
tranides said:
Malcolm what do you think about training in all paramitas, bodhicitta, kyerim and dzogrim, in fact - by all those trainings - i do train in pretending beeing awaken. Is it also worthless becouse of mental afflictions?

Malcolm wrote:
Pāramitās are not pāramitās unless one is free from grasping, right?
Bodhicitta with grasping is defective bodhicitta, right?
The creation stage is defective without the completion stage, right?

So in all of this, nongrasping in the most important point.



tranides said:
My teacher use to say, that even if we wont achieve the fruit of the path, we are planting karmic seeds of future acomplishemnt. Which is good anyway. I also have a question about thinking about the process lineary - except training in pure vision one will probably train in plenty other things, so his klesha will be purified gradualy which means hes wannabe pure vision will become more and more pure (kinda stupid expression), wont it? Tho i might be completly wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
The kleśas are not something to remove from the mind, the wisdoms are not something to add to the mind; the kleśas are themselves self-liberated wisdom when one cuts through grasping even though there is nothing to cut.

Therefore, cutting through grasping is the actual practice of all paths, from hinayāna to atiyoga. The only difference between the yānas, lower to higher, is the coarseness of the grasping one cuts through.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
Fair enough.

But do you believe it, and why? Is it not because you trust in your teacher, and is that not in fact a virtue instead of a hindrance.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know that it is true, and I don't know that it is false. I trust my teacher anyway, not because I heard that his teacher experienced the small body of light, but because he opened the door of Atiyoga to me. I am not, by nature, what is known as a faith-follower. I am really arrogant, so I imagine I am more of a Dharma follower.

Sonam Wangchug said:
If memory serves, you even said that Rinpoche had two teachers who went into rainbow body,(it wasn't presented in any kind of doubtful, could have been, I believe it to be so kind of light) and that there is no other living master which the same can be said of ( with all due respect not accurate) so pardon me, because you are having quite a different tone today, so I am getting adjusted here.

Malcolm wrote:
As was speaking of the qualities of my teacher's lineage, which you appreciate. I never claimed that I had personal knowledge of those two events. Not even ChNN has personal knowledge of those events, as he recounted them second and third hand.

Sonam Wangchug said:
In any case, Faith is the basis of all good qualities, and the ripening of faith is unchanging faith. But I doubt providing quotes will do any good here.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand faith according to its basic definition provided by the Kośa: " śraddha (dad pa) is a mental factor that brings clarity to the mind." I don't have much use for faith beyond that. I do respect other's faith, but not when they use it as an argument in a discussion.

Sonam Wangchug said:
In any case, thanks for sharing your perspective and honesty, I am not saying that sarcastically. Whether you are a "faith-follower" or not, I do feel the sense of faith you have in your teachers, and trust, when you talk about them, and I appreciate that.

Malcolm wrote:
I have nothing but a sense of overwhelming gratitude to my teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
dzoki said:
So if someone points out that alcohol is harmful he is disrespectuful towards alcoholics? This is quite hilarious.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not shown that the Aro folks have harmed anyone, that is actually the point. Can you show us someone ill-used by the Aro folk? If not, then...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:


dzoki said:
1. you have not much to say apart from stating that it is their own opinion based on their own decision (which your own counter-opinion is somehow not?)

Malcolm wrote:
That is the point, my opinion is mine, yours is yours, and it all boils down to what we have decided for ourselves is true, and there is nothing beyond our own opinions in these matters. So trying to cite authorities to prove that this is authentic and this is fraudulent is a fools errand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.


dzogchungpa said:
Try to remember that the next time DJKR comes up.

Malcolm wrote:
No chance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We begin by meditating that all phenomena are empty, free from extremes.

pael said:
All phenomena are beyond coming and going?

Malcolm wrote:
Got it in one!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
So do you believe that Chogyal namkhai norbu rinpoche's teacher went into rainbow body?

You weren't there.

I certainly wouldn't fault you for believing Rinpoche as a credible source, do you think I should?

Malcolm wrote:
It makes me happy to think that Chanchub Dorje may have manifested rainbow body, but I certainly do not know it to be a fact. I am not the kind of person who insists to others of such phenomena, "This is true since my teacher said it happened." I am also a terrible student.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Fair enough.

But do you believe it, and why? Is it not because you trust in your teacher, and is that not in fact a virtue instead of a hindrance.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know that it is true, and I don't know that it is false. I trust my teacher anyway, not because I heard that his teacher experienced the small body of light, but because he opened the door of Atiyoga to me. I am not, by nature, what is known as a faith-follower. I am really arrogant, so I imagine I am more of a Dharma follower.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
Do you even have to ask?

I'm guessing you haven't spent that much time with the Kamtsang.

Malcolm wrote:
Anecdotal tales do not constitute proof.

Sonam Wangchug said:
So do you believe that Chogyal namkhai norbu rinpoche's teacher went into rainbow body?

You weren't there.

I certainly wouldn't fault you for believing Rinpoche as a credible source, do you think I should?

Malcolm wrote:
It makes me happy to think that Chanchub Dorje may have manifested rainbow body, but I certainly do not know it to be a fact. I am not the kind of person who insists to others of such phenomena, "This is true since my teacher said it happened." I don't even insist on such things to myself, but then I am, admittedly a terrible student, and a worse Buddhist. I do however try to practice Buddhadharma as best I can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
pemachophel said:
"It will not become pure by imagining one's guru is a buddha." (italics mine)

agreed. it becomes pure by recognizing, i.e., directly experiencing, one's guru is Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
One will never actually recognize that one's guru is a Buddha until one discovers buddhahood within oneself.

This is a profound point of Atiyoga, the rest is all play for children.

Being a child, I like to play a lot. I much prefer it to work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
I guess I should have been more specific, Who are we to judge the enlightened vision of the 16th gyalwang karmapa.

Malcolm wrote:
You are because you judged. Your acceptance of this recognition is based in your attachment to the idea that the 16th Karmapa was omniscient. There is absolutely no authority behind your acceptance other than that you believe it, that you decided it was true. No one else decided for you it was true, you decided it was true based on your own conceptual mind.

When Buddhist grow up, they realize that there is no higher authority than their own personal opinion. Even their deference to their gurus is based solely on their own personal opinion.

Sonam Wangchug said:
So is it that you do not accept the existence of any beings who are omniscient or have the kind of wisdom that can clearly identify nirmanakayas in the last century, or that you yourself do not believe the 16th karmapa possessed such wisdom? Or both.

Malcolm wrote:
Let's suppose I accept that there are such beings. Even so, as an intellectually honest person, at the end of the day I still will have to admit that it is all just based on my personal opinion, and that there are no substance to such beliefs beyond my opinion that they are true and not false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
the 16th Karmapa's omniscience is demonstrably true.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are saying that the 16th Karmapa's omniscience is demonstrably try in the same way that it is demonstrably true that two groups of two pebbles added together makes four pebbles and never five?

You are saying that it is demonstrably true the same way evolution can be mathematically proven?

You are saying is demonstrably true in the same way that gravitation is demonstrably true?

How is the 16th Karmapa's omniscience demonstrably true? Really, I am all ears.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Do you even have to ask?

I'm guessing you haven't spent that much time with the Kamtsang.

Malcolm wrote:
Anecdotal tales do not constitute proof.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
It's called refuge.

Malcolm wrote:
Which you decided to accept based on your own personal opinion and needs.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Thank god.

Malcolm wrote:
Good one. Still doesn't mean you are able to escape the trap of everything you believe being nothing more than your personal opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
Via the Guhyasamaja tantra.


Malcolm wrote:
You decided to accept the Guhyasamaja is a source of authority. That was a decision you made, and that decision is nothing more than a personal opinion. You really cannot escape the consequence that you accept this as an authority based on your personal opinion.

Sonam Wangchug said:
It's called refuge.

Malcolm wrote:
Which you decided to accept based on your own personal opinion and needs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
BTW Shiva is an emanation of chenrezig.

Malcolm wrote:
In your opinion.

The rest of the conversation is quite predictable.

Everything we believe is based on our own opinions merely because we decided that something was true.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Via the Guhyasamaja tantra.


Malcolm wrote:
You decided to accept the Guhyasamaja is a source of authority. That was a decision you made, and that decision is nothing more than a personal opinion. You really cannot escape the consequence that you accept this as an authority based on your personal opinion, and nothing more. All chains of authority lead back to personal bias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
I guess I should have been more specific, Who are we to judge the enlightened vision of the 16th gyalwang karmapa.

Malcolm wrote:
You are because you judged. Your acceptance of this recognition is based in your attachment to the idea that the 16th Karmapa was omniscient. There is absolutely no authority behind your acceptance other than that you believe it, that you decided it was true. No one else decided for you it was true, you decided it was true based on your own conceptual mind.

When Buddhist grow up, they realize that there is no higher authority than their own personal opinion. Even their deference to their gurus is based solely on their own personal opinion.

Sonam Wangchug said:
the 16th Karmapa's omniscience is demonstrably true.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are saying that the 16th Karmapa's omniscience is demonstrably try in the same way that it is demonstrably true that two groups of two pebbles added together makes four pebbles and never five?

You are saying that it is demonstrably true the same way evolution can be mathematically proven?

You are saying is demonstrably true in the same way that gravitation is demonstrably true?

How is the 16th Karmapa's omniscience demonstrably true? Really, I am all ears.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
BTW Shiva is an emanation of chenrezig.

Malcolm wrote:
In your opinion.

The rest of the conversation is quite predictable.

Everything we believe is based on our own opinions merely because we decided that something was true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
I guess I should have been more specific, Who are we to judge the enlightened vision of the 16th gyalwang karmapa.

Malcolm wrote:
You are because you judged. Your acceptance of this recognition is based in your attachment to the idea that the 16th Karmapa was omniscient. There is absolutely no authority behind your acceptance other than that you believe it, that you decided it was true. No one else decided for you it was true, you decided it was true based on your own conceptual mind.

When Buddhist grow up, they realize that there is no higher authority than their own personal opinion. Even their deference to their gurus is based solely on their own personal opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2018 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Virgo said:
Nothing.  But in this context, it means he is a non-Buddhist and the tulku system failed.

Kevin

Tiago Simões said:
Maybe that was his intent.

Virgo said:
Perhaps.  Maybe to demonstrate to people that they should abandon refuge, take faith in a God, and believe in an eternal soul.  And smoke chillums.

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
I hear they have really good weed in CO. Perhaps he is smoking Blue Buddha Bud:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't care.

Grigoris said:
You don't care if it sounds like you are calling SDR a hypocrite?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Intelligent people will understand that I am not saying that, and stupid people are not my problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
More to the point, if one has to train in pure vision one is afflicted. If one is afflicted, one's vision is not pure. One's vision will not become pure by imagining that one is a buddha in the middle of a palace surrounded by gods, goddesses, and so on. It will not become pure by imagining one's guru is a buddha.

Grigoris said:
Now what are you saying?  That practice/training is useless??? One's vision will only become pure when one is free from grasping. Therefore, it is much better to train in nongrasping than it is to train in pure vision.
Somehow I do not think you can seperate non-grasping from pure vision.

Malcolm wrote:
Nongrasping is more important than pure vision. How do we know this?

One does not start a sadhana, for example, beginning with pure vision. We begin by meditating that all phenomena are empty, free from extremes. Then,  for a while we engage in conceptual proliferation that we pretend is pure. In the end, we let all that conceptual proliferation vanish back into emptiness free from extremes. This is the essence of the creation stage and the completion stage.

The completion stage is more important because the essence of the completion stage is nongrasping.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Grigoris said:
I'm sorry, but did you just call Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche a hypocrite?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not.

Grigoris said:
Well then, you should be careful with how you comment, because it was Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that recommended people practice pure vision, and the discussion is about his recommendation.  It can easily lead to all sorts of justified misinterpretations.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: -ise vs -ize
Content:


DGA said:
I've lived in the US my whole live and never heard anyone use the word "burglarizer" in the way bristollad describes.

Malcolm wrote:
I have heard the term "burglarize" in gangster movies from the 1930's. But never in modern language. Must be a cop term:

"Three Stooges Burglarize Cell Phone Store"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
DGA said:
or is it an empowerment (with samaya to observe)?

Grigoris said:
^^^This^^^ in the Dudjom Tersar.

heart said:
That is actually the only kind of ngakpa there is, someone who took a particular empowerment and then follow that samaya.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Perfect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.

Grigoris said:
You taking a cut of the profits or something?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh snap, an ad hom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
Who are we to judge?

Malcolm wrote:
We, both you and I, make all kinds of judgments in this forum all the time. It is a measure of our grasping and attachment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If one”s own vision of all phenomena is not pure in every way, tellling other people to practice pure vision is pure hypocrisy, whether or not one is a teacher.

Grigoris said:
I'm sorry, but did you just call Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche a hypocrite?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not.

Grigoris said:
Are you saying that only a Buddha can practice pure vision?



Malcolm wrote:
Why would a Buddha need to practice pure vision? They are free of afflictions.

Grigoris said:
Surely one has to try (train in) practicing pure vision before reaching the 24/7 point?

Malcolm wrote:
Let me ask you —— what is the purpose of pure vision? What does it mean to you?

Grigoris said:
Is everybody that is in training a hypocrite?

Malcolm wrote:
Those people, whose own afflictions are not in check, that demand or suggest others observe pure vision are definitely hypocrites, whether they are teachers or students.

Therefore, everyone (gurus included) should check and see whether their own afflictions are in check prior to criticizing what they imagine to be the afflicted perceptions of others. If people really did this, I bet the silence would be deafening.

Full disclosure-- everything I say and do is merely the glow of the raging bonfire of my own afflictions, which is why you never see me recommending to anyone that they should "practice" pure vision with respect to anything or anyone as a rebuke or a remedy to some worldly controversy. I have discussed the notion of training in pure vision with respect to the creation stage, because that is the essential theory of the creation stage.

More to the point, if one has to train in pure vision one is afflicted. If one is afflicted, one's vision is not pure. One's vision will not become pure by imagining that one is a buddha in the middle of a palace surrounded by gods, goddesses, and so on. It will not become pure by imagining one's guru is a buddha.

One's vision will only become pure when one is free from grasping. Therefore, it is much better to train in nongrasping than it is to train in pure vision.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Mantrik said:
Of course defining yourself by a narrow set of criteria is a limitation.  Taking vows is a limitation.

Grigoris said:
Hello!  Vows in Vajrayana are liberatory.  Remember?

Malcolm wrote:
A famous Khenpo, the teacher of my teacher Khenpo Migmar, told Khenpo Migmar, "Sometimes, taking a vow is taking a vow to create more nonvirtue."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
dzoki said:
Furthermore Chogyam misused name of Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and when Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche protested that, Chogyam decided to sue him.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not what happened. I was there, you were not.

dzoki said:
Aro Lingma is a fictional character, becuase Togden Rangrig had no such daughter, don't you think a terton of her "stature" would be at least mentioned in his biography? Since vajrayana teaching depends on the lineage, even if the words of the teaching are not in contradiction with buddhadharma, if there is no lineage, there is no blessing. You can read biography of Terton Rangrig here:
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_ViewInWIndow-W1GS45961%7CI1GS45964%7C1%7C1%7C1%7C374

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever made you think that the person described as the father of "Aro Lingma" is Nyala Rangrig Dorje? It certainly is not evident from the proffered bio one can find on the web. And you have to admit the melong tied to the guy's beard is a nice touch -- I have always found the Aro pirate themes amusing. Even if the backstory of Aro is entirely fantasy, we should keep our facts straight about what they are claiming as opposed to what they are not claiming.

What you seem to fail to understand that is that Buddhist texts are full of ahistorical persons, such as Mañjuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on. We have ballads of Gesar concerning his invasion and conquest of https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_ViewByOutline-O1GS463171GS46408%7CW26078 which many Tibetans, for example, accept at face value.

dzoki said:
If anybody has doubt that Aro is a fake or authentic terma you can ask senior students of Chime Rigdzin, what Rinpoche, who was himself a terton, thought about Chogyam's activitiy as a "terton". You can ask James Law, Gudrun Knuasenberger or Ugyen Chencho Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
You do understand that citing chains of authority only leads back to one's own judgment, right? In the end it is we ourselves who decide what is false and what is true. No one can do that for us, not even the Buddha.

So, you have decided the Aro trip is fraudulent, and that is totally cool with me.

But let me put it you this way. If some Sakyapa or Gelugpa came up to you and said that your practice was fraudulent because it had no lineage and was just a fantasy concocted by a Tibetan named Dili Terton, how would you feel? You would feel completely disrespected. Well, I am pointing out to you that there are hundreds of people who find a great deal of value in Aroter, who follow it, try to practice it, and if they were to read your denunciations of their tradition, I can imagine that they would feel completely disrespected. So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.

All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:36 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Mantrik said:
Are we?  No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.

Grigoris said:
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision...  EVERY TIME.

Malcolm wrote:
If one”s own vision of all phenomena is not pure in every way, tellling other people to practice pure vision is pure hypocrisy, whether or not one is a teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:21 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
https://lerabling.org/lang-en/dzongsar-khyentse-rinpoche-vajrayana-buddhism-in-the-west-28-feb-2018 should be interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the Catholic Church murdered Galileo...but guess whose point of view we all have confirmed through reasoning confirmed with valid cognition...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:15 PM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Grigoris said:
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I am just disagreeing with you and stating my viewpoint.  You can like it, lump it, or ignore it, but resorting to ad hom logical fallacies in an attempt to negate it, is pretty weak and petty.

Malcolm wrote:
Not Greg, you got it backwards. I find it is of no use trying to convince people of anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 8:10 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:



dzoki said:
There is no harm in playing music, the harm is that he is teaching a fake terma. Anyway, enough about this. Let's go

Malcolm wrote:
How do you know his termas are fake? What is your basis for such an evaluation? Are they inconsistent with the meaning of the Dharma in general? Is there some teaching within them that contradicts Buddhadharma specifically? If yes, what specifically? If no, then what is the problem?

dzoki said:
Come on Malcolm. Ok, just for a sport of it, I have one name for you: Aro Khyungchen Lingma - the originator of the terma, a lady who apparently lived in Tibet of Chogyam's imagination, in other words there is no lineage to this stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
You realize that this critique, absence of lineage, has been leveled against the whole treasure tradition, right? And frankly, just as there has never  been any satisfactory answer to these critiques other than "I believe this," or "My teacher says it is true," (or false as the case may be) likewise here the criticism amounts to "I don't believe this." The same applies to all tantras, sūtras, and collections like Abhidhamma, likely the very first "terma" in the history of Buddadharma.

Do you have any idea how many names of people there are in Buddhist texts for whom evidence of their historical existence is utterly lacking? Why do we believe in such people? The answer is simple —— someone told us to and we do, even though we have no proof these names were ever connected with sentient beings who lived and died on this planet, or any other.

Aro Lingma may be a fantasy, or she may have been a historical person. I don't know and neither do you. We can have our opinions about these things, but opinions are not facts. Not only that, there are many termas and tertons that have come and gone in Tibet, whose names we have never heard of and will never know, too minor to have been recorded by anyone, too obscure, too remote. It is merely an accident that Chogyur Lingpa found favor with Khyentse Wangpo -- in Nangchen everyone thought he was a fraud and laughed him out of town. Even Kongtrul records that he doubted Chogyur Lingpa at first.

Having said all that, it could be useful for you to review Gendun Chophel's theory of confirmation bias:

Beyond each mountain pass is a different religious sect with thousands of scholars and fools who follow it saying, "Just this is true, this will not deceive you." This self-authorization of one's own truth delights a group of similar beings; when told to a group who does not agree, they are scornful.

—— The Madman's Middle Way, Lopez; Chicago, 2006.

This is how we sound, and we sound scornful.

dzoki said:
If you have doubts that Chogyam is teaching a load of BS, check out this article:

http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text/t/tralame_ar_eng.php

Malcolm wrote:
bkra lam me (བཀྲ་ལམ་མེ་) is an actual word. Apart from obvious phonetic mistakes like confusing bkra (brilliant) with khra (harrier), and not understanding that me reduplicates of the final consonant in lam as an intensifier, quite frankly, I have seen any number of fanciful etymologies of Tibetan words explained by Tibetans, based on similar kinds of errors,  for example the fanciful etymolgies we see for bye ma la mu tra, a.k.a Paṇḍita Vimalamitra of Vima sNying thig fame.

These kinds of fanciful etymologies are also found in Indian Buddhist text.  All that this explanation shows is that Chogyam's Tibetan is awful.

In reality, he is talking about ojas ( mdangs) the most subtle part of food refined into a subtle fluid that maintains health, vitality, sexual potency, and ultimately, one's life force. Ojas means "brilliant."

But he is not talking about the Dharma here, he is talking about the effect of stress, sexual misconduct, etc., on one's brilliance. The principle thing that degrades ojas is sadness and stress.

Trungpa invented a whole new vocabulary for Westerners out of Tibetan words that has little or nothing at all do with how they are actually understood in Tibetan culture. But I am sure you think he is an authentic terton. Why?

So, you are going have to do a little better to find something Chogyam is teaching which really contradicts the Dharma. Fanciful explanations based on ignorance of Tibetan isn't sufficient, because Tibetans engaged in plenty of fanciful explanations based on ignorance of Sanskrit, as anyone knows who has taken the time to read Sakya Paṇḍita's Differentiation of the Three Vows.

A personal aside:

BTW, I was quite young in the Dharma when I met Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche (the recollection of whose name never fails to bring tears to my eyes), at a time when he and Chogyam did not get along anymore. But I have to admit that Ngagpa Rimpoche emphatically stated to me personally that he wanted no part in any conflict with Chogyam, despite Rinpoche's personal disappointment in many of Chogyam's decisions. In my youthful delusion that I mistook for faith, out of pride I took up a grudge that was not mine to carry. That is why I issued an apology for saying unkind things about the Aro folk, such as  "Their teachings are fake termas."

There is no authority upon which we may rely, apart from our own judgement. But we are not omniscient, and many teachings loudly once decried as fraudulent are now praised everywhere without question. Who is to say that Aroter is not something like this? You? Me? Anyone?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
DGA said:
He's been performing as Doc Togden for years now.  I recall a facebook fan page for him maybe seven or eight years ago.

What's the harm?  He looks healthy and happy.

dzoki said:
There is no harm in playing music, the harm is that he is teaching a fake terma. Anyway, enough about this. Let's go

Malcolm wrote:
How do you know his termas are fake? What is your basis for such an evaluation? Are they inconsistent with the meaning of the Dharma in general? Is there some teaching within them that contradicts Buddhadharma specifically? If yes, what specifically? If no, then what is the problem?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.

Grigoris said:
Instead of engaging in ad hom logic fallacies, something which you are doing with increasing frequency nowadays, why don't you just come up with a counter to my interpretation?  Why don't you try proving my interpretation wrong?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.

Grigoris said:
I disagree

Malcolm wrote:
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, this is a missive directed to his own students, given the personal nature of the communication:
This guidance comes from me now not as a reprimand, but as a result of the fact that I love you all and I am concerned. It comes because I don’t want you to cultivate more negativity which would bring about a narrowing of your mind.
So, whether we agree with this advice or not, it is not really meant for the public. It is meant for students of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche specifically. It's pretty clear he is concerned about his students piling on the "Sogyal is a monster" train, and that he thinks this is bad for them and their practice.


dzogchungpa said:
Well, SDR's son Namgay Dawa Rinpoche posted it to the H.H. Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje FB group, of which he (NDR) is an administrator, so presumably it is meant for anyone who is interested in Dudjom Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
The letter of the infamous gang of eight was posted to facebook too, does that mean it was also "meant" for us? It was never meant for public consumption, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is what I love about E-Sangha/DW/Vajracakra, etc. We can have basically civilized conversations about Buddhist hanging judges, that are occasionally soft on rapists, and who condemned Nazis to hang while practicing mindfulness of breathing with their spare time, etc., etc., in the middle of a conversation about whether there is a market for Ngakpa services, or whether it is even appropriate to use such language, the origin of the tradition, and so on. Keep up the good work! And we are evenly occasionally invaded by crazy Malaysian Buddhist scholars who insist that black is white and white is black!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
TaTa said:
When Chnn says that mantra should be recited underbreath and without interrupting it means that one should also recite during in breath?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't think that particular point is what people find unconvincing.

Grigoris said:
That is what I felt as being the main thrust of the letter.  Is there something I missed?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the point some people find unconvincing is the idea that we should refuse to judge lamas on the basis of their observable behavior. Rinpoche says:
It is best not to criticize other teachers because you do not have the insight or the wisdom to do so. Your judgement is based on intellectual understanding and you do not have the depth of awareness or clairvoyance to see the many different lifetimes that a teacher has accumulated and practiced.
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.

However, this is a missive directed to his own students, given the personal nature of the communication:
This guidance comes from me now not as a reprimand, but as a result of the fact that I love you all and I am concerned. It comes because I don’t want you to cultivate more negativity which would bring about a narrowing of your mind.
So, whether we agree with this advice or not, it is not really meant for the public. It is meant for students of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche specifically. It's pretty clear he is concerned about his students piling on the "Sogyal is a monster" train, and that he thinks this is bad for them and their practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: New Rigpa letter
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomrimpoche/permalink/954458854709277/

DGA said:
Do any DW-ers find this convincing?  I do not.  Please help me understand how this is convincing.

related discussion:

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27325

Grigoris said:
What do you find unconvincing about the logic that negative mind states generated in reaction to negative events/circumstances lead to suffering?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think that particular point is what people find unconvincing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2018 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Another Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
Crestone colorado.

A local told me that he is stays in a trailer, that he is now a shaivite and smokes from a Chillum.

Malcolm wrote:
The wisdom display of awakened beings is amazing!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
DGA said:
and wasn't it Kirkpatrick who was into the nudity thing, with Chogyam playing along for a while?

Malcolm wrote:
It's possible. I was told this by someone who said they liked the Aro trip, but after a while they found the nudity thing too much.

My info is old, so perhaps they do things differently. Never hung out with them at all, so I really would not know what past and present practices may be like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Simon E. said:
* In contrast to those western Theravada lay people that attend teachings dressed all in white including white gym shoes...common in UK Theravadin circles..

Malcolm wrote:
The origin of the Ngakpa robes, sans red stripes on the upper robe which is a Tibetan innovation, is actually the white robes of the serious Indian Buddhist upāsaka and upāsikā, generally worn on fast days or when preparing for novice ordination. And of course, during the time of the Buddha, Indians generally never cut their hair unless they were mendicants since long hair was a mark of beauty in their culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: -ise vs -ize
Content:
Bristollad said:
The use of -ize in British English is referred to as “Oxford Spelling” and claims to be more etymologically correct.  It is regarded as an affectation that is used by the “properly educated” by many people (whereas the American tendency to add -ize etc. to everything is seen as just wrong e.g. burglarize hence burglarizer instead of burgle and burglar).  Strangely enough according to Wikipedia, Oxford University recommends using -ise for its public relations material because it is more accepted by the public.

Malcolm wrote:
Read anything from the 17th century...spelling is merely a convention


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 9:36 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
DGA said:
It would be worthwhile for someone to do an objective study (ethnography or at least participant observation) of what contemporary ngapkas outside of the Tibetan cultural sphere actually do with their time and their practice.

Malcolm wrote:
I have been led to understand from an insider that they do their ganapujas naked. This leads me to wonder if Chogyam didn't do a stint of Gardnerian Wicca.






And I have observed in the past that the Aro crew is most likely having more fun than we are...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Upcoming TV Show with Buddhist Main Character
Content:
Queequeg said:
Daniel Dae Kim to play a former monk turned LA police detective.
https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/upcoming-tv-show-about-a-buddhist-detective-aims-to-bring-the-dharma-to-prime-time


Malcolm wrote:
All I can say is that they better get the damn robes right.

Queequeg said:
Has that been an issue in shows/movies?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, for sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:



Mantrik said:
As with the US, we really need a change of regime. Sadly, politics has become polarised and the left is now virtually communist and sees Venezuela as a role model, so we are between a rock and a hard place.

Malcolm wrote:
Hopefully, November will usher this in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
Mantrik said:
My experience in the UK is that facts really don't matter; so I'll just say what I am detecting:

Poor whites and poor blacks and  poor asians all feel they are treated worst of all, have the least privileges, suffer the most discrimination etc.

These things ebb and flow, but after terrorist attacks it has been easy for politicians and others to galvanise poor whites into everything from voting for far right extremism to white gang vigilante actions. The presence of unemployed EU immigrants claiming social benefits and housing denied to others has played its part.
In a 'chicken and egg' situation, black and asian gang activity has become a major urban issue.

Young black males are disproportionately represented in UK jails. More of them are subjected to 'stop and search'..............and just maybe it is because most of the crimes are committed by people who fit that profile. And so the cycle continues. Meanwhile, our 'justice' system lets off pretty white girls who stab people because jail may harm their careers. We really are not far away from Hicksville, USA.

The Brexit vote was partly a manifestation of the fear and dislike of immigrants. A few think immigration has become uncontrolled and voted becuase of that. Others, however, just don't want those with dark skins and who don't speak English and have 'foreign' religions.  They probably think Trump is a hero.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, in the US, poor whites are mainly pissed because they feel, wrongly, that their privilege has been eroded by 1) policies which enable the advancement of black people and 2) a shrinking demographic. Meanwhile, since Reagan, education funding in what we call red states has been stripped to the bone, and since in red states they historically depress property taxes and so on to attract retirees and industry, they cannot fund schools themselves. They imagine, wrongly, that they are being cheated, that their taxes are being squandered (they are, they just are blaming the wrong folks), and that all their problems lie in Washington, which is bullshit. Their problems are local, and a result of their own penchant for voting up guns and Jesus and voting down education, birth control, gun control, higher taxes on property and so on, they have basically screwed themselves, and things won't get better until they understand how pernicious the GOP vision for the USA actually is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Upcoming TV Show with Buddhist Main Character
Content:
Queequeg said:
Daniel Dae Kim to play a former monk turned LA police detective.
https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/upcoming-tv-show-about-a-buddhist-detective-aims-to-bring-the-dharma-to-prime-time


Malcolm wrote:
All I can say is that they better get the damn robes right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And it is also one reason why I generally discourage people from "becoming ngakpas."

Grigoris said:
And I think that this is the tragic mistake you are making:  You are confounding the external appearances, with the Ngakpa practices per se.  Of course they are related, but...  Instead of warning people about getting hung up on the external appearances of being a Ngakpa, you are dissuading them from becoming Ngakpa.

Malcolm wrote:
When I say I dissuade people from becoming ngakpas. I don't mean that I tell people, "don't take empowerments, don't practice the two stages, don't recite mantras," I mean that when someone comes to me and asks me how they can be "ordained" as a ngakpa (and there is actually no such thing as a ngakpa ordination) by receiving the hair empowerment, etc., I tell them it is a bad idea to receive the hair empowerment because either you cannot cut your hair at all (my tradition) or you have to constantly apologize for cutting your hair through confessions (Dudjom Tersar).

So it is better that people, especially beginners, do not take on this commitment. If someone has done their ngondro, is stable in their practice, has experience of the two stages, and is committed to being the equivalent of a Buddhist sadhu in some respect, then that is fine and they are free to do as they wish.

Basically, if you have to ask someone, "Should I become a ngakpa," the answer from them should always be "No." If you have to ask, you are not ready.

This is completely separate from my evaluation of the pros and cons of the Ngakpa tradition as a socio-economic phenomena in Tibetan culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
It seems like you missed the main point of my post, but i'll bite I guess. There are plenty of white people (both urban and rural) low down enough of the socioeconomic ladder, with no prospects for education, work or betterment, whose communities are often dogged by the exact same plagues as minorities in a similar socioeconomic place, such that their "white privilege" amounts to a whole HELL of a lot less than their status as lumpen proletariat does. I acknowledge that whiteness even for them does carry some very marginal advantages, but the salient point is that at the lower you go, the amount of advantage it carries becomes close to trivial.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree. Poor whites have been systematically advantaged over others since the 18th century in law and custom in the US.

Johnny Dangerous said:
The main point for me is basically that evaluating oppression etc. based primarily on race, without any class analysis is just silly, it creates discrete categories that don't actually exist.

Malcolm wrote:
And thus Bernie Sanders lost the primary, largely because of this kind of thinking. Bernie lost the black vote because of his inability to overcome his habit of thinking in terms of class rather than race.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Beyond that, I was actually responding to self-described "liberal" people I know (I'm starting to like the term McResistance) making fun of "toothless hillbillies" and "white trash" in a way they would never dream of talking about minorities, for good reason - because it's a terrible way to see any people.

Malcolm wrote:
The right rather likes portraying itself as the party of white trash and toothless hillbillies. They have even devoted a whole segment of reality TV shows virtue signaling white trashiness— Duck Dynasty, Sarah Palin, and so on — which deliberately and cynically play into this stereotype for $$$ and votes in order to create a false sense that white people experience systematic socioeconomic depression (they don't).

Johnny Dangerous said:
Hopefully you understand that regardless of what one wants to think of white privilege, that is some hypocritical behavior.



Malcolm wrote:
It is stupid for people to fall into that trap, since it is a trap that has been very skillfully set out to snare liberals by the right. It is also naive to imagine that this image has not been deliberately cultivated by the right since Obama was elected, as a kind of counter identity politics, a.k.a, the Tea Party.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Parinirvana without remainder
Content:


Jyoti said:
Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely wrong.

jhanapeacock said:
Why is it wrong, sir?

Malcolm wrote:
Because Jyoti's view is completely dualistic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Jyoti said:
Malcolm was there too under the name 'namdro', but later he disappeared from newsgroup and hiding himself in the safe zone of moderated forums, being protected by like-minded followers

Malcolm wrote:
No, I simply grew tired of the unrelenting spam that came to dominate the alt.religion.buddhism.* newsgroups.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
And Malcolm believes that the efficacy of a practice is based on it's attractiveness?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think I said that. I think what I said was the success or failure of Ngakpa tradition in the West will be largely dependent on whether there is a need for services provided by ngakpas. Right now, I am pretty sure the demand for doctors, psychologists such as yourself, and social workers will always be much higher than people who have gained expertise in making thread crosses, zors, and playing ritual instruments. Personally, I think there is a massive amount of "spiritual" materialism connected with interest in the Ngakpa tradition, but the same can be said of every tradition within Buddhism, which is a larger point. And it is also one reason why I generally discourage people from "becoming ngakpas." This has nothing to do with feeling that one's performance of Nāga pujas safeguards refugees. One does not need to be a "ngakpa" to do a Nāga puja, though it may seem more impressive when done by folks kitted out in full ngakpa gear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
My objection has been towards the evaluation of practices in reference to their market value.  I believe that this is irrelevant.

Malcolm wrote:
And I think you are kidding yourself.

Grigoris said:
For me the value of a practice is in it's efficacy to liberate, not in it's attractiveness.

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh, but we are not talking about what you personally value. If we were, the thread would be titled, "What Being a Ngakpa Means to Grigoris." Now, certainly that is part of the conversation, but so is "What Being a Ngakpa Means to Bob, Malcolm, Alvin," and so on.

Grigoris said:
Of course if Buddhism is to take root in the West it has to offer something relevant to us, but, just because something seems relevant to us doesn't mean it is of any value.  Pornhub has market value, does it make it more relevant?

Malcolm wrote:
It apparently has more value than Ngakpahub, but Pornhub is not relevant to this thread, unless of course it has a secret Vajrayāna section where one can see attractive young Buddhists copulating in full lotus posture very, very slowly to a Choying Drolma soundtrack.

Grigoris said:
No, for me, lack of a market does not signal a lack of relevance.  You are making the mistaken assumption that the consumers are informed enough to make an intelligent evaluation.

Malcolm wrote:
That Buddhist consumers lack necessary information to make intelligent choices about their gurus, mentors and choice of traditions is also obvious, given the growing number scandals concerning sexual, emotional, and financial abuse in the Buddhist world.

Grigoris said:
But here we have a discussion where those that should be informing, so that people can make judgements for themselves, are instead making (negative) value judgements.

Malcolm wrote:
It is important to understand everything about a tradition. This is not a thread for recruiting people into white and red uniforms. This is a thread devoted to all dimensions of what it means to be a ngakpa, good and bad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Greg just has something against the idea of calling it a "market".

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, it offends his anti-capitalist prejudices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
You know you are in Kali Yuga when a discussion about "What it means to be a ngakpa" devolves into a debate about the marketability of the practices, the commodification of the Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
One, Śākyamuni Buddha is the buddha of the Kāli Yuga.

Two, Buddhism has always been commodified. Buddhism has been a big business at all its various points in development in Asia, both in its land of origin and in all lands to which it spread, generated and generates a huge amount of economic activity, and still continues to do so. Originally, Buddhism did not offer rites and so on for lay people. Why? Because as the Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the brahmins faithful to the Buddha would be responsible for carrying out such activities. However, over time, in competition with brahmins, Buddhist ritualists began offering rites to compete with nonbuddhist brahmins both for money and influence through the performance of rituals. When Buddhism spread to Tibet, for example, foreign and foreign-trained Buddhist ritualists, exemplified by the archetypal ngakpa, Guru Padmasambhava, immediately began to compete with the indigenous ritualists (which we now call Bonpos) for religious, economic, and social influence. We see the same trend in Southeast Asia, the Far-East, and now, here in the West, where we we have the affluence to import Tibetan ritualists to perform rituals on our behalf and train us to do them ourselves (one reason why ChNN trains us to do all kinds of rites in an essentialized form is so that we won't have to pay others to do them for us through lacking skill in Tibetan language).

The specifics of the kinds of contracts patrons and priests have may continue to be somewhat pre-modern (though this is rapidly changing), but the fact is that an enormous amount of money shifts from the pockets of lay people into the hands of Tibetan religious professionals lay and ordained, all over Asia. For example, remember this?

Grigoris said:
A Tibetan Leader in India Faces Currency Charges

Delhi — The Indian police have filed criminal charges against one of Tibetan Buddhism’s most important figures in connection with more than $1 million in cash discovered this year at his headquarters in the foothills of the Himalayas...

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/world/asia/17th-karmapa-charged-in-india-over-illegal-currency.html

Some people like to imagine that the commodification of Dharma, a.k.a Buddhism, is brand new. It isn't, it has been there right from the start. Ever since Anathapindika donated his garden to the Sangha, the professional Sangha has been involved in primitive capital accumulation, and has experienced all of the corruption and graft that entails. Evidence of this exists because there are rules governing misappropriation by monastics, which have rather sever penalties, say, as opposed to the total lack of penalty for drinking alcohol, killing animals, or harming plants. Further examples can be seen in the debate between Mahāyāna monastics and their non-Mahāyāna counterparts over the appropriateness of handling money, engaging in trade, and receiving fees for the performance of religious services and so on.

So, when we take a look at Buddhism as a human phenomena, we see that it also carries with it all human frailties and faults. Why do you think I make a distinction between Buddhism and Buddhadharma? The Ngakpa tradition and ngakpas themselves (being human) are not exempt from human impulses, urges, and practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 1:13 PM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
Ricky said:
Classism is also a big problem in the states.  Terms like "white trash" and "hillbilly" are always being thrown out to describe poorer whites by upper class whites. Minorities on the other are being tormented for being minorities and lower class.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yep, very accurate statement IMO. it's perfectly ok in some circles to be classist as long as it's towards disenfranchised poor white people, I'm amazed by some of the things I've heard my supposedly liberal acquaintances say in this vein.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlike blackness, asianess, latinoness, and so on, whiteness is an ever expanding category commensurate with socioeconomic success.  So frankly, I don’t have much sympathy for those who try and play the white trash card as if being poor and white in the USA is an unendurable burden with no way out, and which is exempt from white privilege— cause it ain’t.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 12:12 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



ItsRaining said:
Divākara from the Nalanda reported that in India there were two masters at Nalanda the abbot of Nalanda and Xuanzang's teacher Śīlabhadra and Jnanaprabha. The first taught the Three Turnings with the Third Turning as Yogacara and most definite whereas the latter taught the Madhyamka as the definite teaching.

But the Huayan Patriarch Fazang Xianshou notes that the Prajna Sutras cannot be classified as only second turning and in the end places Yogacara on a level lower than Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
This is anecdotal.

When you examine the bstan 'gyur, you will discover that there is almost nothing mentioned about the three turnings. The passage in the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra about three turnings was ignore Asanga in his commentary on the sūtra. The other commentary, by Jn̄̄ānagarbha, also ignores the three turnings. It appears obvious then that this tiny section of the sūtra in question are regarded as being of little importance by Indian masters in India.

The notion of three turnings as a major device for interpreting sūtras was introduced to Tibet in the massive commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra by the Korean master་་Won-ch'uk.  However, this is almost entirely ignored in Chinese Buddhism as well which seems to generally follow the Tientai school for dating and evaluating sūtras.

Madhyamikas would never accept this scheme since they regarded the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra a provisional sūtra from the get go, and their criteria for evaluating definitive vs. provisional sūtras comes from the Akṣayamtinirdeśasūtra.

But this is all massively off topic.

ItsRaining said:
I found Śīlabhadra proposing the theory plausible as he is the teacher of Xuanzang (who in turn taught Won Chu'k) whose East Asian Yogacara school proposed the Three Turning teaching.

But I would agree that the Tiantai and Huayan evaluations are much better than the Three Turnings.

Malcolm wrote:
You’re missing the point. Indian masters who wrote commentaries on this text didn’t care about this tiny passage and it is evidently so since they ignore it completely.

Further, this is off topic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 7:34 AM
Title: Re: Ye-drog meaning
Content:
pemachophel said:
thanks Loppon. so one of the translations i've seen is "360 accidents." like "360 misfortunes," this doesn't catch the fact that these accidents or misfortunes are due, at least in part, to evil spirits mucking about. any suggestion how to capture both meanings? "360 misfortunes [due to evil spirits]"? or maybe this is the place for a footnote.

Malcolm wrote:
good place for footnote. Incidentally, according R.A. Stein, when Tibetans translated texts from the Chinese Buddhist canon, they used the term to describe untimely death, just to make things more complicated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I believe in the potential of the rituals but then I see all these younger monks who seem to be constantly distracted on their phones just as ordinary people are and I doubt if they really have the abilities to make a puja work.

Malcolm wrote:
Presenting....the modern Devaputra Māra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


climb-up said:
Oh!...
...snap!

Malcolm wrote:
That's dzogchungpa's line...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Jyoti said:
Once you receive the direct introduction, you moved on with your life, instead of binding your life with the raft.

heart said:
When you receive the direct introduction that is the actual beginning of the path. This also where you realise why you need a Guru. It would seem that you missed out, but it is not to late.

/magnus

Jyoti said:
Everyone one has a choice in their lives, some choose to follow a guru, some follow a career, some practice in solidary, some devote to study of sutra and develop their own thesis, some a mixture of this and that, I myself am a mixture of career and study. Direct introduction is important, but it is not a ritual where you have to receive repeatedly, although it is not restricted from doing so. I confessed I already know the teaching, including the meaning of thusness (presence) on reading books alone, but I took the direct introduction nonetheless.

I did not come here to learn anything, I am just a buddhist scholar who is feeling bore, because no one can discuss the definitive dharma with me. Now it seems clear to me that this dzogchen forum does not have the people I am looking for, my expectation is too high I guess, I will moved on as I did 6 six years ago, due to not finding the capable opponents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Ye-drog meaning
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is properly spelled ཡེ་འབྲོག་སུམ་བརྒྱ་དྲུག་ཅུ. But we see ye 'grogs and ye 'drogs as well.

According to Desid Sangye Gyatso, the 360 Yedrog have a couple of meanings. One has to do with the 360 joints of the body explained in Kālacakra which cause unhappiness of fear and so on when under the power of affliction.

But the meaning from "astrology" is more useful here. It has to do with connate gods and spirits ( lha dang 'dre ). He cites a text called Illumination (gnang gsal):

When the body and mind separate into two,
there are connate gods and demons. 
Those gods accompany the mind (sems) upward,
the spirits accompany the intellect (yid) of the deceased,
further, accompany the demon (bdud) of the deceased downward.

He continues that this means when one has obscurations, one is accompanied by demons; when free of obscuration, one is accompanied by gods.

Also they are considered harmful non human spirits.

However, in terms of the rite you are translating, it is probably best to go with "360 misfortunes"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Mantrik said:
Personally, I believe there is a huge market for pujas, blessing, divination and many of the services a Ngakpa may offer.   It's just that others are offering them.

One of the strongest brands at the moment is Westernised 'Shamanism'  - they'll do you a sweat lodge, rabbit entrail divination, bless your gemstones, give you Reiki whilst in trance, certificate you as a Shaman, sell you robes and retrieve your soul  - all for just £500 and all in a weekend!

Ngakpas are missing out badly.

Cone's right - damn good job most Ngakpas aren't part of that spiritual gravy train, but there are a few who dress up and sell their wares to the saviour seekers.

Malcolm wrote:
That's cheap, in Sedona AZ that weekend would cost anywhere from $5000 to $10,000 US, room, meals, and airfare not included.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It leaves is [sic] with Western Ngakpa hobbyists who have the means and time to pursue their hobby because we live in a more prosperous part of the world than my guru did. And so the economics are less pressing.

Grigoris said:
The implication being that somebody that does something as a hobby, is not as serious as one that does it for money/professionally?  Or am I projecting again?

Malcolm wrote:
It leaves us with that fact that we do not need to learn rituals to keep from starving in the streets.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We should understand this.

Grigoris said:
I understand this, I just believe it is not relevant to the Western context and should not be the primary reasoning/motivation behind us practicing in Ngkapa lineages (or not).  The same reasoning could be applied to monastic traditions in the West too, since there is not really a solid financial basis for their survival too.

So what does that leave us with then?

Malcolm wrote:
It leaves us with Western Ngakpa hobbyists who have the means and time to pursue their hobby because we live in a more prosperous part of the world than my guru did. And so the economics are less pressing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
Well, actually, I did't ask you that. You gave a relevant response to Matthew and then started on a largely irrelevant aside.

Malcolm wrote:
Personally, I think the socio-economic dimensions of the Ngakpa tradition are very relevant to any discussion of what it means to be a Ngakpa. Why? This in fact is one of the main reasons why every monastery wants to have a Tulku. No Tulku, no patrons. No patrons, no money. No money, no food.

My guru, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, thoroughly trained his students in India to become proficient in ritual arts so that they could make a living, understanding that compared to the local Gelug monastery (which gets all the big donations and support from the CTA), his monasteries would struggle economically unless they were able to offer services useful to the local people.  In many monasteries in India, for example, they have menus for how much this rite costs, how much that one costs, and so on. So yes, the market plays an important role in religious services, and those services are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Why do you think it costs millions of dollars to host HHDL, whereas to host your teacher it costs merely a few grand? Put simply, HHDL is in much greater demand than your teacher, my teacher, etc.

When KDL came to the USA to do Healing Chod tours, he made it explicitly clear he was here in this country (USA) to raise money from people to support his monastery projects, which required capital he was unable to raise in India. Of course, he never turned anyone away from these events, but on the other hand, he was clear he was here to raise money. If no one showed up with money for the events, he would have gone home — and he said as much to the people who came. So, there was some demand for his services and he happily supplied them.

I understand this to be part of the wider context of the socio-economic role monasteries and so on have played for Tibetans for generations. And quite frankly, Ngakpas in Tibetan society were not just doing rites for this and that reason out of the kindness of their hearts. They expected to be paid for their services. We should understand this. You may be offended by treating the socio-economic facts of Buddhism in this way, but I live in the real world, where supply and demand is a constant issue.

Buddhism arose from the merchant class in India, among people who were very interested in making profits and generally contributed to the Sangha to generate merit so they would be more prosperous. Why? Because in sūtra after sūtra the Buddha encouraged lay people to a) generate profits through trade so that b) they could support the Sangha, and c) so that they could live happier lives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Jyoti said:
This is the non-grasping of the meaning. '

Mantrik said:
You seem to regard Sakyamuni as the only Buddha and only source of reliable teachings.

You did not personally hear him teach, nor did you hear him explain his teachings.
You are totally reliant on teachers who have transmitted the scriptures.
Without those teachers you have nothing.

You misunderstand Vajrayana and Dzogchen to the point where you are trying desperately to assert an understanding of the sky using someone else's description of how Shakyamuni described the rocks. Because you are locked into that limitation, people can't explain anything to you.

Jyoti said:
Your view point is valid for a beginner on this definitive teaching due to the requirement for direct introduction. But the definitive teaching of mahayana is based on the meaning of the third noble truth, which is the state of the cessation of suffering. This mean the teaching assume the audience already attain the knowledge (vidya) that is required for the arriving of the meaning of the third truth.

Therefore, my standpoint is the same as the definitive teaching of mahayana, that is, I am not here to learn the meaning (from someone or teacher), and I didn't assume anyone here need to learn the meaning either. So this is the view that everyone is equalled as buddhas, this is a needed view because in the definitive teaching, there is no 'sentient beings' and no 'sufferings', as these are only the words of the provisional dharma, their real meaning is 'buddhas' and 'bliss' respectively.

In this prespective, in the standpoint of buddha, we have no other choice than the four reliances, 'a person' (or teacher) also is one of the element of uncertainty, every person has their own agenda and opinions, so can never be recommended as a source to be relied, in this case, only the dharma itself is the only reliable source, because the definitive dharma belongs to the side of the base which is changless and permanent. And as a 'buddha', our own view or understanding of the meaning of the scriptures that we relied is itself precious and has an authority on its own, it should not be judge/verify by the authority of person (or teacher) alone but by the meaning/truth of the dharma itself. This is the reason, we need the four reliances, and the reason why the Buddha want us to uphold them as his injunctions.

Malcolm wrote:
Jyoti, you are really going down a strange path with the assertion that in definitive sūtras there is no mention of samsara or sentient beings. It simply isn't true.

Also, this conversation is completely off topic in this forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
I am not the member of a monastery nor of a Ngakpa Dratsang, so this is completely irrelevant to me...

And why exactly should I care? How is this relevant to my practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Not every conversation is about you, Grigoris. You asked me a question about why demand for the marketable skills of a Ngakpa were relevant in a general conversation about what it means to be a Ngakpa. One of those contexts is what it means to be a Ngakpa in Tibet. And in Tibet, Ngakpas employ their skills for $$$. That market does not exist in the West and it probably never will.

Grigoris said:
But you should not denigrate the practices, methods or motivation of others just because it does not fit into your narrow world view of supply and demand.

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris, you are projecting again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge is not an obscuration.

pael said:
How about knowledge of other religions? I know many stories from Bible, Koran and Book of Mormon. Is it obstacle?

Malcolm wrote:
One should know everything. Knowledge is never an obstacle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Jyoti said:
Dzogchen is of definitive teaching, vajrayana teaching is not definitive, that's why the latter need a teacher. This is the reason I never post in vajrayana related forum. Those of definitive teaching does not need a teacher, unless it is about direct introduction. But we are here for the discussion of the definitive dharma, not about direct introduction, which I did not assume my audience need it from me, nor I need it. The view point of definitive teaching does not automatically assume someone is ignorant, unless as proven by his/own words. Thus, there is no need for a teacher, because there was never an assumption that someone need a teacher.

Norwegian said:
It's astounding how wrong and mistaken you are.

Jyoti said:
When it comes to the definitive teaching, no one, no teacher here is greater than the Buddha (because he is the teacher of teachers) and his injunctions (the four reliances) to Kasyapa. When the teaching of the Buddha is available, there is no excuse to rely on the person (teacher), than the dharma (due to the fact that the scriptures are still available in abundance).

The Mahaparinirvana sutra stated:

Bodhisattva Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "Well said, well said! What the Tathagata says is true, not false. I shall accept [your] word with the greatest respect, for example, just as if I had received an adamantine treasure. Just as the Buddha says, these bhiksus should stand [base themselves] on four things.

"What are the four? They should be based on Dharma, not the person; on the meaning, not the words; on the intelligence, not on consciousness; on the definitive sutras, not on the non-definitive sutras. They should well know these four things, but not four such persons."

The Buddha said:"We say that we should base ourselves on the definitive sutras [those which dig deep into the true meaning of Buddha-Dharma], and not on the non-definitive sutras. The non-definitive sutras are the sravaka vehicle. Hearing even the depth-plumbing storehouse of the Buddha-Tathagata, doubts raise their heads as regards all things and the person does not realise that this storehouse arises from the sea of great Wisdom, as in the case of a child who cannot distinguish one thing from another. This is the non-grasping of the meaning. '

Malcolm wrote:
The four reliances are great with respect to sūtrayāna teachings, which all are based in intellectual analysis.

Dzogchen however is based on intimate instructions one receives from a guru which enable one's direct perception of dharmatā, rendering the four reliances irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Jyoti said:
For the spirit of academic/scholastic discussion of buddhism, one should uphold the Buddha's injunction as stated in the four reliances. One of that apply in this, is not to rely on the person (teacher) but the teaching (dharma). Therefore your asking for authority of teacher for anything being discussed, is an open opposition to the buddha's injunction, a sign of weakness in buddhist cultivation.

Malcolm wrote:
You are in the wrong forum, then lady. The ultimate authority in Vajrayāna is the guru.

Jyoti said:
Dzogchen is of definitive teaching, vajrayana teaching is not definitive, that's why the latter need a teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen requires a guru. Would you care for a citation avalanche?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Parinirvana without remainder
Content:


Jyoti said:
Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the Holy Writ maintains that when one is really making progress in one's practice of Dzogchen, one's body feels very light and pleasant, parasites flee the body (such as lice), one's need for food decreases, and so on. All of these signs are characteristic also of someone who has mastered sutrayāna style śamatha. Rongzom confirms this idea by his insistence that those who are gradual capacity people (all of us, I have never met a cig car ba) need to develop the first dhyāna (with it's characteristic five factors) combined with Dzogchen view, either in connection with mantra practice or just by doing regular śamatha.

Aryjna said:
I think I have read all the books by ChNNR on shine (only three of them that I could find), but none of them talk about how to develop it through mantra practice. One could say it is obvious but it would be useful if there was some more explicit material on this. I also have never seen him mention using the breath as an object, which is very common in other vehicles. Do you know if he has ever taught specifically on these options, and if there is some material available?

Malcolm wrote:
He talks about how mantra practice is mindfulness of breathing and gets very mad at people when they do not pronounce mantras according to proper breathing patterns because they are not paying attention or don't care.

A lot of the reasons he says this or that thing are not obvious until you study more. But in Vajrayāna somehow, people think it is more virtuous to blindly follow their teachers than it is to find out why they say this thing or that thing, or investigate the reasons behind this or that statement.

I personally prefer to figure out why my teachers say this or that so that I can explain it to others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Grigoris said:
A market?  WTF does a market have to do with things?

Malcolm wrote:
How do you think monasteries support themselves? They do so based on demand for their services by the local lay populace. This is why they charge fees for this rite and that puja. The same is true of Ngakpa Dratsangs.

When you go have your obstacle reading done yearly and find out what rites you need for the coming year, you pay the astrologer, as well as the monks you hire to recite this massive collection of sūtras, or that one; if you are doing a thangkha painting for a deceased relative based in their death reading, you pay the artist and so on.

So yes, religious services in Tibet were tightly bound to market demand, and those practitioners regarded as more "powerful" got a lot more work, and fees for services than Joe Schmoe Ngakpa who spent his time drinking and sexually harassing the local girls. Weather controllers, invariably Ngakpas, who were unsuccessful in preventing hail, for example, were stiffly fined for their failure because their salaries were derived from taxes imposed on the local farmers who depended on their services.

Back to my point — there is very little market demand for such services in the West.

MatthewAngby said:
Too much of “real” world these days. Can’t even be bothered by these so called “real” life people who only consider work , sex , fame and money as successful and being an achiever in life.

Malcolm wrote:
One has to make a living. No money = no food, no housing, no clothes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2018 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
pemachophel said:
i agree with Loppon-la/Malcolm -- very little demand for ngakpa services where i live.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, and you live in Colorado!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... there is very little market for the skills of Ngakpas in the West, and I doubt there will ever be much of one.

Grigoris said:
A market?  WTF does a market have to do with things?

Malcolm wrote:
How do you think monasteries support themselves? They do so based on demand for their services by the local lay populace. This is why they charge fees for this rite and that puja. The same is true of Ngakpa Dratsangs.

When you go have your obstacle reading done yearly and find out what rites you need for the coming year, you pay the astrologer, as well as the monks you hire to recite this massive collection of sūtras, or that one; if you are doing a thangkha painting for a deceased relative based in their death reading, you pay the artist and so on.

So yes, religious services in Tibet were tightly bound to market demand, and those practitioners regarded as more "powerful" got a lot more work, and fees for services than Joe Schmoe Ngakpa who spent his time drinking and sexually harassing the local girls. Weather controllers, invariably Ngakpas, who were unsuccessful in preventing hail, for example, were stiffly fined for their failure because their salaries were derived from taxes imposed on the local farmers who depended on their services.

Back to my point — there is very little market demand for such services in the West.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
:

But the more one reads DW, the more it appears that in order to make heads or tails of the most basic and the most essential things he teaches (and thus properly practice them), you need to spend years reading around, studying Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, Vajrayana tantras, Dzogchen commentaries -- preferably in Sanskrit and Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, just as ChNN did. Knowledge is not an obscuration. Lack of knowledge is.

In fact, the Holy Writ maintains that when one is really making progress in one's practice of Dzogchen, one's body feels very light and pleasant, parasites flee the body (such as lice), one's need for food decreases, and so on. All of these signs are characteristic also of someone who has mastered sutrayāna style śamatha. Rongzom confirms this idea by his insistence that those who are gradual capacity people (all of us, I have never met a cig car ba) need to develop the first dhyāna (with it's characteristic five factors) combined with Dzogchen view, either in connection with mantra practice or just by doing regular śamatha.

For example, ChNN maintains that if we can be in "instant presence" for a very short period of time, a few seconds, our practice is continuing pretty well. I am not sure how useful being in instant presence for a few seconds is for evaluating the effectiveness of being in instant presence for pain management, though I am certain it is useful for understanding any physical sensation as phantasmagorical. On the other hand, I know very clearly the relationship between pain and śamatha, and I know that the Buddha himself (and there is no greater "Dzogchen master" than Śakyamuni Buddha in our epoch) relied on dhyāna to refresh himself and to deal with his own physical pain as he got older and older:

"It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

I also am not someone who just goes by the Holy Word as reported by my fellow coreligionists. While Dzogchen has its own characteristic practices, its assumptions about the mind and body are Buddhist assumptions, and fit within the boundaries of Buddhist discourse, practice and expectations very comfortably, are based upon them, or in dialogue with them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Jyoti said:
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of this sutras, that is all.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.

ItsRaining said:
Divākara from the Nalanda reported that in India there were two masters at Nalanda the abbot of Nalanda and Xuanzang's teacher Śīlabhadra and Jnanaprabha. The first taught the Three Turnings with the Third Turning as Yogacara and most definite whereas the latter taught the Madhyamka as the definite teaching.

But the Huayan Patriarch Fazang Xianshou notes that the Prajna Sutras cannot be classified as only second turning and in the end places Yogacara on a level lower than Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
This is anecdotal.

When you examine the bstan 'gyur, you will discover that there is almost nothing mentioned about the three turnings. The passage in the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra about three turnings was ignore Asanga in his commentary on the sūtra. The other commentary, by Jn̄̄ānagarbha, also ignores the three turnings. It appears obvious then that this tiny section of the sūtra in question are regarded as being of little importance by Indian masters in India.

The notion of three turnings as a major device for interpreting sūtras was introduced to Tibet in the massive commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra by the Korean master་་Won-ch'uk.  However, this is almost entirely ignored in Chinese Buddhism as well which seems to generally follow the Tientai school for dating and evaluating sūtras.

Madhyamikas would never accept this scheme since they regarded the Saṃdhinirmocanasūtra a provisional sūtra from the get go, and their criteria for evaluating definitive vs. provisional sūtras comes from the Akṣayamtinirdeśasūtra.

But this is all massively off topic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Jyoti said:
thus the term 'suffering' does not exist (nor necessary) in the definitive teaching of mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Making up the Dharma as you go along, huh? Can you find me even one master in any tradition who maintains this point of view you are proffering?

Jyoti said:
For the spirit of academic/scholastic discussion of buddhism, one should uphold the Buddha's injunction as stated in the four reliances. One of that apply in this, is not to rely on the person (teacher) but the teaching (dharma). Therefore your asking for authority of teacher for anything being discussed, is an open opposition to the buddha's injunction, a sign of weakness in buddhist cultivation.

Malcolm wrote:
You are in the wrong forum, then lady. The ultimate authority in Vajrayāna is the guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 12:45 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Jyoti said:
The tripitaka is very systematic and strict on what is definitive and what is not. The above criterias are fixed (not subject to doubt) and there are more.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.

Jyoti said:
Usually it is only related to a certain controversial sutras, we just have to read into the meaning of this sutras, that is all.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually these controversies apply to entire classes of sūtras, and we have not even begun to get into tantras.

The whole idea of "three turnings" is very sketchy to begin with, and a hermeneutic device Indian masters wholly ignored.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Jyoti said:
thus the term 'suffering' does not exist (nor necessary) in the definitive teaching of mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Making up the Dharma as you go along, huh? Can you find me even one master in any tradition who maintains this point of view you are proffering?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 11:08 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:


Lobsang Chojor said:
Is there a book that you recommend on the commitments and vows?

Malcolm wrote:
BTW, this only counts for Vajrayāna materials...

Lobsang Chojor said:
I did think so, is there an equivalent for sutra materials?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing apart from the general exhortation to regard anyone from whom one receives Dharma teachings to be like a Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 11:07 AM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
ddorje said:
I take my personal cue from the lineage lamas of the tradition I follow, and while things like the ‘hair vow’ are still conferred, cutting the hair is optional.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Dudjom Tersar, most people with the hair empowerment cut or trim their hair. For some of us in other traditions, while the other gear is optional, cutting or trimming the hair is not optional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 7:16 AM
Title: Re: Parinirvana without remainder
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.

Ricky said:
Arhats have contaminated aggregates?


Malcolm wrote:
They do not have contaminated aggregates, but they have nonafflictive obscurations, and are required to enter the bodhisattva path in order to achieve buddhahood, according to Mahāyāna sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 7:14 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:


Lobsang Chojor said:
What commitments does it entail?

Malcolm wrote:
The same as receiving an empowerment, but not as strong.

Lobsang Chojor said:
Is there a book that you recommend on the commitments and vows?

Malcolm wrote:
BTW, this only counts for Vajrayāna materials...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Keep the poor whites and poor blacks at each other's throats so they don't stop to realize this guy is screwing them both:

Ricky said:
That's exactly what it is. If poor whites and blacks can unite it would be a powerful force.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why poor whites historically have been given privileges denied to poor blacks, in order to keep them from joining forces. This practice in the US goes back to the 18th century as as deliberate policy. When poor whites feel superior to black people merely for being white, they will have no reason to join with blacks and every reason to cooperate with white elites in the suppression and exploitation of blacks, latinos, asians, native peoples —— the evidence of this is written in blood in the pages of US history. The Italians and Irish eventually managed to become white, but they were not regarded as "white" until after WWII. Jews didn't make it into the white club until the '70's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Exactly what Rinpoche means when he says "being in the natural state," "being in the state of Guru Yoga," "being in your primordial state," "being in instant presence," etc.

Malcolm wrote:
This is too vague. And you are not telling me what YOU think these phrases mean. For example, are these mental states or not? Are they samadhis or not? If they are samadhis, then what kind of one pointedness do they represent? As far as I can see, these slogans don't tell us anything really. Do you experience pain differently when you are doing guru yoga? How? If someone experiences normal pain when they are doing guru yoga are they failures? etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is a saying in Tibet, "Even a dog's tail can give a lung."

Basically, if you have the lung, you can give the lung. Whether anyone would want to lung from you is another issue, since receiving a lung from someone entails commitments to that person.

Lobsang Chojor said:
What commitments does it entail?

Malcolm wrote:
The same as receiving an empowerment, but not as strong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:
fckw said:
I know lung, but what’s the difference to wang and specially Pewang?

heart said:
A pewang is a text blessing after which you can read the texts yourself but you can't pass it onto someone else. With lung you theoretically can do that.

/magnus

fckw said:
Now I am puzzled. I have never heard that a lung authorizes you - even if just theoretically - to pass a text further. So, what are the different positions on this point, what would be the prerequisites?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is a saying in Tibet, "Even a dog's tail can give a lung."

Basically, if you have the lung, you can give the lung. Whether anyone would want to lung from you is another issue, since receiving a lung from someone entails commitments to that person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Parinirvana without remainder
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 16th, 2018 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
I have heard ChNN say, and more than once, that when you are resting in rigpa the pain does not disappear tout court. It may lessen (he actually used the modal verb here) or be experienced differently.

Malcolm wrote:
When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, Rinpoche disagrees, assuming resting in rigpa entails being in perfect śamatha.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you think "resting in rigpa" means? Let's define our terms here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:



heart said:
A pewang is a text blessing after which you can read the texts yourself but you can't pass it onto someone else. With lung you theoretically can do that.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There are differences of opinion on this point.

heart said:
This is what CNR told me while giving me a pewang, I never heard anything else about it.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, there are different opinions about this, just like everything else in Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: what is your approach to Dharma?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Temporary (relative) happiness...


Malcolm wrote:
is called the suffering of change.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:
fckw said:
I know lung, but what’s the difference to wang and specially Pewang?

heart said:
A pewang is a text blessing after which you can read the texts yourself but you can't pass it onto someone else. With lung you theoretically can do that.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There are differences of opinion on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Mastering śamatha is a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.

pael said:
How high Jhana/Dhyana? Form or Formless? Or nirodha-samapatti?

Malcolm wrote:
Perfect śamatha = first dhyāna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
PeterC said:
your most pressing problem is masturbation.

Malcolm wrote:
Snicker...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: What it means to be a ngakpa
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
As the title says it all - how is being a ngakpa an important significance ? What can the ngakpa do and not do due to the 14 vows? Also is being a ngakpa very hard in the modern world?

Does being a ngakpa make practice easier ?

What if you break the vows, does that make u are destined for hell?


Malcolm wrote:
Sociologically, in Tibetan society, Ngakpas fill the role taken by Brahmin priests in Indian society.  The reason for this is that the rise of Buddhist Tantra in Indian involved lay and ordained Buddhists competing with Brahmins in the same roles, officiating at burnt offering rites, and so on. We can, for example, find sustained arguments by Indian Buddhists for why Buddhist burnt offering rites are more effect then their brahmanical counterparts.

That said, there is very little market for the skills of Ngakpas in the West, and I doubt there will ever be much of one. I don't think, in the context of Western Buddhism, we are ever going to see many Ngakpas in traditional gear. There will always be some, but not many.

That said, some people find it helpful to wear robes when they practice -- but this is really no different than Zen people who like to wear Zen gear when they practice —— it sets a tone, a mood, a purpose.

Personally, apart from not cutting my hair, I don't really hold much with wearing Ngakpa gear. Putting on and taking off special clothes to practice Dharma just seems a bother to me. But then, I am very lazy. I have, however, been known to wear a stripped robe on special occasions.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:



MiphamFan said:
Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.


Malcolm wrote:
Just wanted to add, vitarka and vicara are mental factors accompanying all minds in the desire realm, not just the first dhyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Indus Valley people & genetics
Content:
tiagolps said:
Apologize for my ignorance of the subject... But could someone summarize what implications this study will have?

Malcolm wrote:
It will help settle the long standing debate between Western scholars and Hindutva adherents. The former claim Indo-European peoples gradually penetrated India between 1500 BCE and 1000 BCE. The latter claim that Harappa shows that India had a continuous unbroken civilization and that there was no Āryan invasion and that IE languages and people came from India originally.

Personally, I think the Hindutva people are nuts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
krodha said:
the master snapped his fingers and said, "May my realization take birth in your stream of being."

Malcolm wrote:
I don't believe tall tales of this kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Aryjna said:
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?

Malcolm wrote:
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.

treehuggingoctopus said:
I have heard ChNN say, and more than once, that when you are resting in rigpa the pain does not disappear tout court. It may lessen (he actually used the modal verb here) or be experienced differently.

Malcolm wrote:
When one is in perfect śamatha, one will not feel pain. Śamatha in fact was the historical Buddha's ibuprofen. This is mentioned in more than one sutta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Jyoti said:
The tripitaka is very systematic and strict on what is definitive and what is not. The above criterias are fixed (not subject to doubt) and there are more.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually it isn't —— and it is for this reason that there are disputation and multiple opinions about what is provisional and what is definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I quoted a text which is classified as third turning,  but you replied with  non sequiturs

So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Jyoti said:
This is not a definitive sutra since it discusses sentient beings and samsara. My point of the citation is just to answer your two questions. Your first question is rooted in the basis of nondefinitive teaching, that's why there is no direct answer that is definitive to that, but only indirect answer that is definitive, that is, if you can read the meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
All sūtras refer to sentient beings and samsara; therefore, by your logic there are no definitive sūtras at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 12:34 PM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I quoted a text which is classified as third turning,  but you replied with  non sequiturs



Jyoti said:
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.

Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.

Malcolm wrote:
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.

Jyoti said:
The teaching of definitive meaning as expounded in the third turning is aimed at the position of the fourth noble truth, whereas all the nondefinitive scriptures (of the first and middle turning) discusses only the three noble truths, though they know the words of the fourth noble truth, they don't know the meaning.

Refering to my post in 2011 in talk.religion.buddhism:

Due to lack of the four non-obstructions, there is obstruction to the law, meaning, words and speech. The lack of four non-obstructions is the four inversions. The four inversions are due to the practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles)

T12n0376_p0862a18(11)║「此三種修於我法中亦無實義，間間苦修性昇降故，苦樂 想顛倒，"These three practices do not have real meaning in my teaching, due to continue practice of renunciation, the nature arises and fall, the thought of suffering and pleasure become inverted."

The three purities and their corresponding inversions:

T12n0376_p0862a19(01)║樂苦想顛倒，無常常想顛倒，常無常想顛倒，
"The thought of pleasure and pain is inverted, the thought of impermanence and permanence is inverted, the thought of permanence and impermanence is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a20(01)║非我我想顛倒，我非我想顛倒，不淨淨想顛倒，
"The thought of non-self and self is inverted, the thought of self and non-self is inverted, the thought of impurities and purities is inverted,
T12n0376_p0862a21(00)║淨不淨想顛倒，如是四顛倒想者不識平等，
"The thought of purities and impurities is inverted, such is the four inversion which does not recognize the equanimity."

The three practice of purities have no real meaning, meaning is not gained, the gained is not the meaning. Thus, the gained is obstructed, the not gained is non-obstructed.

The position of mahayana is to accept the words of the 11 classes of sutras (include the 2 vehicles) which preached the gained, but neutralize words of these scriptures with the meaning that is not gained as preached in the vaipulya class of mahayana scriptures (方等大乘經典).

Further:

The sutra passage about the suffering is of the three dharma seal:

The practice of the three purities (renunciation of self, desire/pleasure, impurities of the 2 vehicles). The three poisons, desire, aversion and delusion support each other, the three dharma seal, no-self, suffering, and impermanence support each other. The three poisons, the three dharma seals and the four truths relate to each other. The five senses and the thoughts are considered as impured, thus there is antidote like visualization of corpse, thinking of impermanence of phenomena.

All these elements belong to the 25 gains, the gained has no meaning, and so it lead to obstruction due to inversions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Anyway, right now, as far as I understand right now: the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas was pretty much accepted at least in the Mahayana world. Modern Theravadins who also try to go back to the sutras, as the Sautrantikas did in their time, came up with pretty much the same understanding of the dhyanas, such as Geoff in his https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=5761#p89677. Geoff quoted some interesting examples from the Pali Canon illustrating the vitarka, vicara etc which I find more illuminating than the Kosa definition. Do you think that his outline there is accurate from a Mahayana PoV?

Again, one needs to experience these things personally. As Dzogchen practitioners, we are supposed to gain experience in everything. As to yourt question, Geoff's analysis is fine and matches more or less what I can find in the sūtras and tantras (where these factors are also discussed at length in the commentaries).

MiphamFan said:
OK, thanks.

I would love to read more Mahayana commentaries on the Dhyanas and shamatha, but it seems that what is available in English is not as detailed as Theravadin/Pali versions. There was an Indian English translation of Bhavanakrama 1, but the translator does not write very lucidly IMO. I know that Theravadin lineages seem to be mostly a reconstruction (I posted that old thread back on VC after all), but I find stuff like Geoff's analysis interesting because he cites interesting quotes from the Pali canon itself and seems to draw similar conclusions to the Sautrantikas (maybe because he himself has had Mahayana teachers?)

For example, he cites these examples for vitarka and vicara from the canon that I find quite helpful: Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

Malcolm wrote:
Personally, I don't like directed thought and evaluation, but that is just a translation choice. In the Mahāyāna commentaries. they are generally glossed as a course and subtle attention. One point of difference is that the first Dhyāna for us (Sautrantikas, etc.) has no vitarka after one pointedness is reached. It maintains vicara however, because in the first Dhyāna one can still change one's focus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 6:38 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
I have a fair amount of experience with people currently or formerly incarcerated.  I don't believe the prisons or any industry should profit from forced labor.

Malcolm wrote:
Sheeeeeit, that is the whole point of the 13th amendment, keeping slavery legal:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Required viewing for readers of this thread:

https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741

TharpaChodron said:
I don't have Netflix, but I did hear about this show.  Yes, the whole system needs change.  I could have sworn that the notion of prison was originally some sort of Quaker idea of rehabilitation and that it wasn't supposed to be punishment for the poor, as it was in debtor's prison back in the day.  So, it's failed on those two counts.

The reality is a lot more complex, though.  It sounds so sad, but then these are the people who committed assault, murder, armed robbery, rape.  No one really wants these guys released and on the streets.  And btw, a very good buddy of mine is a black man, who spent 9 years in state prison for a string of armed robberies.  I'm sympathetic to the cause, just realistic.

Malcolm wrote:
Most people who are convicted of crimes committed those crimes while intoxicated on drugs or alcohol. This is an old article but I think it is still valid:
The report, which was released yesterday by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University, determined that of 1.7 million prisoners in 1996, 1.4 million had violated drug or alcohol laws, had been high when they committed their crimes, had stolen to support their habit or had a history of drug and alcohol abuse that led them to commit crimes.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/09/us/drugs-or-alcohol-linked-to-80-of-inmates.html

Norways's approach, OTOH,

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Indus Valley people & genetics
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
In a month or so, some scientific journal will present the results of the DNA from some very old (4600?) skeletons.  Here are four possible outcomes given in this report:

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/ancient-mysteries/who-built-the-indus-valley-civilisation

Malcolm wrote:
Fascinating. I hope this settle once and for all the question of who the Harappans were. Personally, I am betting on the Elamite connection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Aryjna said:
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?

Malcolm wrote:
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.

Aryjna said:
I thought you were talking about the case of someone who is a buddha. In my first post where I said that pain cannot be felt you seemed to disagree. Or did you mean that it can be felt by someone who has the knowledge but is not necessarily in the state every moment?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, physical pain can be felt by someone who has knowledge of the basis, but who is not residing in a moment of unfabricated consciousness.

Physical pain cannot be felt by someone who is residing in the dhyānas or who is in a state of perfect śamatha. In this case, the only difference between a perfect śamatha and "instant presence" is whether that person has Dzogchen view or not. Dzogchen is many wonderful things, but it does not eliminate the framework of how karma functions, how mental factors function, and how śamatha functions and so on. Some people (not you) seem to think that Dzogchen is a "get out of Buddhism free" card. It isn't.

The reason I referenced ChNN's medical issues last year is that some people think that Rinpoche is in instant presence 24/7/365. He isn't, by his own admission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Aryjna said:
Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.

Aryjna said:
But what about the case of a practitioner who is in the state of instant presence? Is it possible to feel physical pain in that case?

Malcolm wrote:
[...] when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
I have a fair amount of experience with people currently or formerly incarcerated.  I don't believe the prisons or any industry should profit from forced labor.

Malcolm wrote:
Sheeeeeit, that is the whole point of the 13th amendment, keeping slavery legal:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Required viewing for readers of this thread:

https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Pero said:
I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?


Malcolm wrote:
All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

Pero said:
Ok I understand that but think I'm getting lost with the meaning of the word "sensation". Are feelings and sensations the same? Because I thought pain is a sensation, sadness a feeling (and would fall under mental suffering). And in context of this discussion do not see why a practitioner on the path could not experience both regardless of it being a sensation or feeling or something else. Am I completely wrong in this?

Malcolm wrote:
There are five sensations and only five: pain and pleasure for the body; sadness and happiness for the mind, and indifference for both.

The answers to so many of these questions are found in Abhidharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Aryjna said:
In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.

Aryjna said:
Are there two different definitions of rigpa? Or is the only difference between a buddha and someone who has a much lower capacity that the person of lower capacity will become distracted when the pain starts?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, rig pa is used in many different ways in Dzogchen texts. In this case, rig pa refers one's continuum of unmodified consciousness that is momentary. Hence "instant presence." In this case rig pa is referring to the knower, rather than a kind of knowledge as it is used in other contexts.

It basically means that when you are in this state, mental factors associated with pain of the body have no means of arising.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:33 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



heart said:
I am pretty sure suffering is a sensation. It is true, as long as one has a physical body one can experience physical pain and suffering. Also without a physical body one can experience mental pain and mental suffering. Pain and suffering are connected.

/magnus

Pero said:
I meant more like mental suffering. That is not a sensation to me, but perhaps I do not understand the word sensation correctly.

heart said:
How about mental pain? Is it a sensation?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Pain is, as we know well, the suffering of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


Pero said:
Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

Malcolm wrote:
All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.

Pero said:
I'm not sure I'm getting you. What you are saying is that karma ripens both in the body and mind?


Malcolm wrote:
All painful sensations are the ripening of negative karma in the body. All pleasant sensations are the ripening of positive karma in the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:



Aryjna said:
I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.


Malcolm wrote:
Which book, what page?

Aryjna said:
In Mandarava Tsalung, page 60. Talking about someone who is always in instant presence.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, this is a different use of the word "rig pa" -- this is remaining in a moment by moment state of unfabricated consciousness 24/7/365, i.e., a buddha.

When anyone is such a state, while in that state, they are free of the ripening of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Aryjna said:
I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?

Aryjna said:
I was just reading something by ChNNR on this exact subject when I saw this thread. I'm not sure if I should mention it here as it is fro ma restricted book (though not really restricted material in itself), but I'm pretty sure it makes what I said above clear.


Malcolm wrote:
Which book, what page?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:


KathyLauren said:
Correct.  It is frequently attributed to Murakami, but the book to from which it was taken ("What I Talk About When I Talk About Running") was only published in 2007.  The quote is documented much earlier than that in Alcoholics Anonymous literature.  Murakami just heard it somewhere and used it, like I did.

And, while not Buddhist, it speaks well to the difference between pain and suffering.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

heart said:
Since pain is the actual basis for suffering it is such strange distinction to make.

/magnus

Pero said:
Is it really? Pain is a sensation. Suffering may not be a sensation. In any case, isn't it that as long as one has a physical body one can experience pain? Buddha had a headache too...

Malcolm wrote:
All painful sensations of the body are the ripening of past negative karma. All pleasant sensations of the mind are the ripening of past positive karma. Even what we consider negative mental sensations are actually the ripening of negative karma in the body, and vice versa for pleasant sensations of the body — they are actually the ripening of positive karma in the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Aryjna said:
I think there is some confusion over the meaning of the word 'pain' by those that think that someone in rigpa feels pain. Pain is by definition unpleasant, so it is impossible for someone in rigpa to feel it.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you think a person who has knowledge of the basis cannot feel pain? Certainly, last year, ChNN was completely miserable and in intense pain. Are you asserting that he was not "in rigpa" throughout this time?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Where are 1% of Americans?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Locked up for being black, mostly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: What's wrong with democracy?
Content:
Grigoris said:
I am not rationalizing anything. These are the facts.
Ownership is not a fact, it is a mode of relation to an object based on a particular philosophy/world view.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you mean it is a convention. Of course. In Western civilization, ownership, once conferred by sovereigns, is now conferred by the State. All conventions.

But it is a fact if I build a fence on my neighbor's property, they are going to take me to court. That is a convention too, and a court case I am likely to lose.

And the fact is that the Crown granted 40 acre tracts of lands to veterans of the French Indian war in what are now called the Hill Towns of Western Massachusetts. And it is a fact that prior to that war, no one lived here because it was too dangerous due to the long standing conflict between the Pocumtuc and Mohawk tribes. Indeed, tensions were sufficiently high that the Pocumtuc tribe built elaborate fortifications with palisades and ditches to (unsuccessfully) fend off attacks from the Mohawks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
heart said:
The Buddha said that that the cause of suffering is ignorance.

Jyoti said:
In the non-definitive scriptures, it is mentioned as such, but not in the definitive scriptures of the third turning.

Since in the latter scriptures, the view of the teaching arrived at cessation of suffering, and it is not based on the stand point of the deluded mind, but of the intelligence/jnana.

Malcolm wrote:
So what is the cause of suffering in the third turning sūtras? And which sūtras are you defining as such?

In any case, the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkara, a summary of the third turning sūtras, beautifully states:

Ignorance and knowledge are respectively suffering and the absence of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: What is the purpose of chanting?
Content:
mddrill said:
Thank you. I wish there was some kind of upvote button here.

Malcolm wrote:
Use this:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: What's wrong with democracy?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, no this is a misrepresentation of US history.

All of the founders from the south were indeed slaveowners. Most of the founders from the North were not.

With respect to murdering Indians, at that point in history, Indians and Europeans were murdering each other with equal frequency, as we can see in the French-Indian war. By this point (1756), the 1.5 million people in the British colonies had expanded no further than the Appalachian mountains, inhabiting the 100-300 mile strip of land area to the east of them from the Carolinas to what is now Maine, only about a tenth of the total landmass of N. America. Beyond that it was all Indians until the Pacific. Of course, then there is the fact that people like Franklin consulted with the Iroquois Confederacy about their principles of governing, some of which were adapted to the new constitution.

The part of Massachusetts in which I live, the hills west of the Connecticut river, was uninhabited by the 17th century because of the constant wars the Pocumtuc confederacy had with the Mohawks who lived in the Hudson Valley. When the first European settlers arrived in 1764 in Ashfield, my town, there was literally no one living here or anywhere around. The whole Berkshire region was uninhabited because of the constant warfare the tribes of the Connecticut river and Hudson Valley were waging against each other for generations before Europeans arrived. Also smallpox definitely took its toll on the local tribe. Their remnant survives as the Abenaki Indians of Vermont.

http://www.dickshovel.com/pocu.html

Grigoris said:
I see that the rationalisation based on the legal concept of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius is happily applied by the offspring of white colonialists in America too.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not rationalizing anything. These are the facts. Eastern Forest Native Americans, unlike Europeans, did not have a concept of property. Instead, they had a concept of usufruct. Their wars were frequently over who had the right to use a given tract of land. Ownership just did not occur to them. However, the tribes fought many brutal wars with each other that had nothing at all to do with European colonialism.

They further thought the European concept of "property" was very strange, since they had a slash and burn type of agriculture and land management strategy. Thus, they also thought the European practice of growing plants in animal manure was disgusting.

In short, at least in New England, there was a total lack of understanding on both sides.

To your point about Terra Nullius, the Pilgrims and others of their era were pretty much steeped in ideas of divine mandate -- they did not assume, after they landed, that New England was unpopulated, they imagined themselves Israelites, as is show in this introduction to Increase Mather's account of King Phillip's War:
That the Heathen people amongst whom we live, and whose Land the Lord God of our Fathers hath given to us for a rightfull Possession, have at sundry times been plotting mischievous devices against that part of the English Israel which is seated in these goings down of the Sun, no man that is an Inhabitant of any considerable standing can be ignorant.


My point is that because of a long standing war that preceded the English occupation of New England, the region in which I lived was in fact a no man's land, (not in the sense of terra nullius, but because it was too dangerous to live here prior to the end of the French Indian war) between Pocumtuc and the Mohawk tribes. So, the point here is that in the eyes of settlers, the Americas were not terra nullius, as Cook declared of Australia, but rather, it was land bequeathed by God to the "English Israel," meaning Puritans.

Hobbes notes:
And though a People comming into possession of a land by warre, do not alwaies exterminate the antient Inhabitants, (as did the Jewes,) but leave to many, or most, or all of them their Estates; yet it is manifest they hold them afterwards, as of the Victors distribution; as the people of England held all theirs of William the Conquerour.
Locke, coming later, deals with the notion of individual property as a function of labor rather than conquest:
Sect. 30. Thus this law of reason makes the deer that Indian's who hath killed it; it is allowed to be his goods, who hath bestowed his labour upon it, though before it was the common right of every one. And amongst those who are counted the civilized part of mankind, who have made and multiplied positive laws to determine property, this original law of nature, for the beginning of property, in what was before common, still takes place; and by virtue thereof, what fish any one catches in the ocean, that great and still remaining common of mankind; or what ambergrise any one takes up here, is by the labour that removes it out of that common state nature left it in, made his property, who takes that pains about it. And even amongst us, the hare that any one is hunting, is thought his who pursues her during the chase: for being a beast that is still looked upon as common, and no man's private possession; whoever has employed so much labour about any of that kind, as to find and pursue her, has thereby removed her from the state of nature, wherein she was common, and hath begun a property.
Locke also addresses the limitations of usufruct:
Before the appropriation of land, he who gathered as much of the wild fruit, killed, caught, or tamed, as many of the beasts, as he could; he that so imployed his pains about any of the spontaneous products of nature, as any way to alter them from the state which nature put them in, by placing any of his labour on them, did thereby acquire a propriety in them: but if they perished, in his possession, without their due use; if the fruits rotted, or the venison putrified, before he could spend it, he offended against the common law of nature, and was liable to be punished; he invaded his neighbour's share, for he had no right, farther than his use called for any of them, and they might serve to afford him conveniencies of life.
And his attitudes towards the peoples of the Americas, here:
Sect. 41. There cannot be a clearer demonstration of any thing, than several nations of the Americans are of this, who are rich in land, and poor in all the comforts of life; whom nature having furnished as liberally as any other people, with the materials of plenty, i.e. a fruitful soil, apt to produce in abundance, what might serve for food, raiment, and delight; yet for want of improving it by labour, have not one hundredth part of the conveniencies we enjoy: and a king of a large and fruitful territory there, feeds, lodges, and is clad worse than a day-labourer in England
.

Now, Locke's ignorance of Natives in America is of course staggering. But his attitudes reflect the general 17th and 18th century attitudes towards the Americas, and indeed, his understanding of the cultures of the Americas is one of the main points upon which he hangs his conception of the state of nature.

Naturally, in Buddhadharma we also have the idea of a state of nature, the origin of government when someone takes more than their usufruct rights should allow them, indeed in this there is much in common between the Aggañña Sutta and Locke's notions of the evolution of the property from labor, and the evolution of the state from the need to protect that property.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Instant Presence and Physical Pain
Content:
Reibeam said:
Could someone comment on how tremendous physical pain (such as gout or a kidney stone) would be experienced if one were to be able to be in instant presence during that moment?

My understanding is that this would be like any other experience except potentially more difficult. You would have the sensation of pain in the body and thoughts and feelings would arise relative to that experience but in instant presence they would dissolve as you observed them. You wouldn't be just disassociating from the body or "tuning it out".

You would still feel the pain but wouldn't be chasing after the experience and making it worse.

Horrible pain like this sucks but its also seems like an opportunity to practice and have a concrete experience. Perhaps like Rushen

Crazywisdom said:
Pain killers won’t send you into hell.

Malcolm wrote:
Kidney stones are hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...

Marc said:
Thx Malcolm for your answers, as well to MiphamFan and Aflatun for feeding & deepening the discussion.

I confess that I find it quite reassuring to hear via Malcolm that "hard dhyana / jhana " is not necessarily the one and only understanding / norm in Tibetan traditions.

Otherwise Rongzom's advice for "non- chigcharwas " would actually sound a bit depressing...

Wishing a nice sunday to all of you,
Cheers
M

Malcolm wrote:
According to my sources in the Kenjur and Tenjur, the only senses that cease operation in the first dhyāna are smell and taste. Sight, hearing, and tactile sensation remain active.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 15th, 2018 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But I didn't receive any teachings on those practices and AFAIK for Vajrayana practitioners, one's root guru is the ultimate arbiter in case of doubts.
This is a tiresome and repetitive excuse. Thanks goodness ChNN did not just remain passive. When he did not understand something related to practice, he took it to the cushion so he could have his own experience and understanding.
I didn't receive any teachings on dhyanas from a lineage, while I have for other teachings, so I will just continue with the practices I did receive as far as I understand them.
You are free to do as you like, but you, and everyone else, will be a much more solid practitioner if you cultivate the first dhyana. It involves cultivating these five mental factors. You start with mindfulness of breathing, four foundations of mindfulness, and so on. This is no different, really, than reciting a mantra. A mantra is just another way to perfect śamatha.

MiphamFan said:
I did try to read and research about shamatha, it just made me more and more confused about who's right, and more importantly, what to do.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to discover these things for yourself. That is the point I am making.

MiphamFan said:
In the end, I decided that I should just follow ChNN, as far as I can understand his teachings, in terms of my practice.

Malcolm wrote:
In every retreat, he talks about the five capacities: one of those is samadhi. That samadhi is just a one-pointed mind. In ChNN systems of SMS, after level two, one is expected to be able to sit in meditation for 2 hours a session. This is based on Rongzom's text we have been discussing. One practices either common śamatha or mantra practice, with an aim to arouse these five factors. Rongzom says it is irrelevant which way one practices as long as one combines them with Dzogchen view.

MiphamFan said:
but the practices I received are still primary rather than going off and trying to practise Hinayana/common Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Mastering śamatha is a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.


MiphamFan said:
Anyway, right now, as far as I understand right now: the Sautrantika definition of the dhyanas was pretty much accepted at least in the Mahayana world. Modern Theravadins who also try to go back to the sutras, as the Sautrantikas did in their time, came up with pretty much the same understanding of the dhyanas, such as Geoff in his https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=5761#p89677. Geoff quoted some interesting examples from the Pali Canon illustrating the vitarka, vicara etc which I find more illuminating than the Kosa definition. Do you think that his outline there is accurate from a Mahayana PoV?


Malcolm wrote:
Again, one needs to experience these things personally. As Dzogchen practitioners, we are supposed to gain experience in everything. As to yourt question, Geoff's analysis is fine and matches more or less what I can find in the sūtras and tantras (where these factors are also discussed at length in the commentaries).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Malcolm, I think the problem is that we don't understand what exactly priti, vitarka etc entail. They are just abstract terms we can't really connect with anything. You can rattle off Vasubandhu's definition, but we poor saps don't know what it means beyond the words.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is not rocket science. Anyone who has done any serious meditation will recollect a time in their practice when they are able to maintain effortless one pointedness on the object, physical ease and mental happiness.

MiphamFan said:
I don't think it's that obvious if all the different schools back in Vasubandhu's time, who presumably all had masters of meditation, could not agree on what precisely marks out particular dhyanas (physical vs mental etc).

Malcolm wrote:
Sautrantikas on up generally agreed.


MiphamFan said:
Maybe the Abhidharma was practised back in India, but where are the practice manuals and for that matter, the practice lineages? The Kosa has lots of definitions, but where are the techniques?

Malcolm wrote:
The Kośabhaṣyām is a practice manual.

MiphamFan said:
In Tibetan Buddhism there is a lot of material on Vajrayana practice techniques, but the material on the dhyanas is nowhere near as detailed and as easily applicable as what is available on Vajrayana techniques.

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually tons of material in Tibetan on these things. It just has not been translated.

MiphamFan said:
The Visuddhimagga of the Theravadins by contrast is really a practice manual, as detailed as Vajrayana practice manuals in its own right; according to it, only 1 in a million practitioners (in the most optimistic case) can hope to achieve the first dhyana;



Malcolm wrote:
This is nonsense.


MiphamFan said:
You mentioned the Bhavanakrama, as far as I see, the actual instruction on shamatha in the BHK is this

Malcolm wrote:
My bad, it is in the first.


MiphamFan said:
OK sure, it's enough to get started and help with some of the faults such as dullness. But it's nowhere near as detailed as the Visuddhimagga, and for that matter nowhere near the countless Vajrayana practice manuals with respect to their practices. "Sitting can be continued as long as one chooses", does that mean that you want to get into a state where you can meditate for weeks and weeks, like Shakyamuni Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
The First Bhavanakrama has a very detailed explanation of the nine stages of śamatha. This instruction is followed in all four schools.

MiphamFan said:
But I didn't receive any teachings on those practices and AFAIK for Vajrayana practitioners, one's root guru is the ultimate arbiter in case of doubts.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a tiresome and repetitive excuse. Thanks goodness ChNN did not just remain passive. When he did not understand something related to practice, he took it to the cushion so he could have his own experience and understanding.

MiphamFan said:
I didn't receive any teachings on dhyanas from a lineage, while I have for other teachings, so I will just continue with the practices I did receive as far as I understand them.

Malcolm wrote:
You are free to do as you like, but you, and everyone else, will be a much more solid practitioner if you cultivate the first dhyana. It involves cultivating these five mental factors. You start with mindfulness of breathing, four foundations of mindfulness, and so on. This is no different, really, than reciting a mantra. A mantra is just another way to perfect śamatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?
Content:
Grigoris said:
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.

dzoki said:
The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi spru l and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.

Mantrik said:
That's useful, but how accurate is 'emanation' as a translation?
It is a fairly precise English term, which I explored in my cack-handed way, but I guess the OP was seeking to discover what the original Tibetan or Indian concept means.

Specifically, is an emanation a part of a Buddha sent out, or just 'something' sent out?
What objects can be emanations, and what examples are given?
Are emanations without limitation in number and form?

Malcolm wrote:
Edgerton's BHS dictionary gives:


nirmita

[L=8428] [p= 302,2]

nirmita (= Pali nimmita), (1) ppp. of nirminoti,
q.v.; (2) nt., a magic creation: bhagavān °taṃ visarjayati
Divy 138.13; Av i.4.12; nirmitopamaṃ māyopamaṃ SP
137.10, like a magic creation, an illusory thing (mirage);
(3) as n. of a class of gods, = nirmāṇarati; so very
clearly in Mv ii.349.13 (vs) °tā (devāḥ), the verse equivalent
of nirmāṇaratī 348.17 (prose); elsewhere, SP 235.1--2
(prose, see s.v. samāvartayati); 237.2, 6; LV 45.11;
50.5 (read nirmitāś for nim°); 213.15; 215.13; 219.8;
sg., one of the class, 241.2; (4) n. of a former Buddha:
Mv iii.237.11; (5) n. of a Bodhisattva: Gv 442.3.


emanation (n.)
1560s, from Late Latin emanationem (nominative emanatio), noun of action from past participle stem of Latin emanare "flow out, spring out of," figuratively "arise, proceed from," from assimilated form of ex "out" (see ex-) + manare "to flow," from PIE root *ma- (3) "damp."

Tibetan sprul ba: generate (skyed), issue forth ('phro bar byed pa), issue forth as many ('gyed pa), transform ('gyur).

A sprul pa is a rnam par 'phrul pa (vikurvita).


BHS

vikurvita

[L=13624] [p= 481,2]

vikurvita, nt. (seems commonest of this group in
BHS; orig. ppp. of vikurvati, but noted only as noun;
not so used in Pali), miracle: dṛṣṭvā vikurvita mamā LV
119.8 (vs); buddha-vi° Mv i.266.17; ii.33.4 (both prose);
nirīkṣituṃ Śākyamuner °tam Divy 269.7 (vs); others,
Av i.258.9; Samādh 22.19; Bhad 45 (°vitu, acc. pl.; no
v.l.); Kv 13.17; 24.10; Mmk 6.1 (read °taṃ for °tuṃ);
Gv (common) 6.5; tathāgata-vi° 18.26, et passim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: What's wrong with democracy?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Given that the founders of U$ democracy were slave owners and murderers of the indigenous residents of the land

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no this is a misrepresentation of US history.

All of the founders from the south were indeed slaveowners. Most of the founders from the North were not.

With respect to murdering Indians, at that point in history, Indians and Europeans were murdering each other with equal frequency, as we can see in the French-Indian war. By this point (1756), the 1.5 million people in the British colonies had expanded no further than the Appalachian mountains, inhabiting the 100-300 mile strip of land area to the east of them from the Carolinas to what is now Maine, only about a tenth of the total landmass of N. America. Beyond that it was all Indians until the Pacific. Of course, then there is the fact that people like Franklin consulted with the Iroquois Confederacy about their principles of governing, some of which were adapted to the new constitution.

The part of Massachusetts in which I live, the hills west of the Connecticut river, was uninhabited by the 17th century because of the constant wars the Pocumtuc confederacy had with the Mohawks who lived in the Hudson Valley. When the first European settlers arrived in 1764 in Ashfield, my town, there was literally no one living here or anywhere around. The whole Berkshire region was uninhabited because of the constant warfare the tribes of the Connecticut river and Hudson Valley were waging against each other for generations before Europeans arrived. Also smallpox definitely took its toll on the local tribe. Their remnant survives as the Abenaki Indians of Vermont.

http://www.dickshovel.com/pocu.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:


aflatun said:
So I think what they're asking is, is this "hard jhana" with a concomitant black out at the five senses and lose of body awareness the kind of first dhyana that Rongzom is advocating?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the Dārṣṭāntika (Sautrantika) opinion is the best.

See the Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam, vol. 4 pp. 1229-1236.

So no, there is no blackout of physical sensation until the third dhyāna.

aflatun said:
Thank you so much for the precise reference

Malcolm wrote:
In addition, the commentary on the Lanka states unequivocally that joy and bliss refer respectively to physical and mental bliss, as does the commentary on the Dasabhumika Sūtra, as does the commentary on the Abhidharmasammucaya, and as does Abhayakaragupta's Marmakaumudī. There are other Mahāyāna commentaries, Madhyamaka mainly, that do not make this distinction, or lean more towards the idea that joy is not physical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:


aflatun said:
So I think what they're asking is, is this "hard jhana" with a concomitant black out at the five senses and lose of body awareness the kind of first dhyana that Rongzom is advocating?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the Dārṣṭāntika (Sautrantika) opinion is the best.

See the Abhidharmakośabhāṣyam, vol. 4 pp. 1229-1236.

So no, there is no blackout of physical sensation until the third dhyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:



Aryjna said:
But isn't it a problem if someone overhears you saying the six syllables or another mantra? Excluding sutra mantras/dharanis.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to the six spaces of Samantabhadra, 'a a ha sha sa ma, there is no problem at all. You want other beings to here it. Maybe people will find it weird, but you can chant it for animals, and dying people. It is not like other mantras, wrahtful mantras in particular.

Aryjna said:
Thanks, I knew that it was ok for animals but I was under the impression that it shouldn't be heard by other people under normal circumstances.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is fine. This is why the only dance that can be taught openly, that is, to people without transmission, is the six lokas dance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Two approaches to the nine yanas......
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
As in the teacher one feels most devoted to?

Malcolm wrote:
Who is your main teacher?

liuzg150181 said:
If I can't decide or asnwered from my heart,then I don't have a main teacher for now?
Admittedly I am a new Buddhist(only slightly >1yr), but have been going ard different teachings in order to decide which to follow in the end.
Though if not for the fact that the local DC gar got disbanded last year, very likely I would follow ChNNR's teaching mostly by now. Right now I am with the Chokling tersar local grp(focusing on ngondro for now),also receiving teaching from other rinpoche,such as Jigme Lodro Rinpoche and non-Nyingma Rinpoches such as Jhado Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
I you have more heart for ChNN, then you should just follow him. But there is no problem with Choling Tersar, etc., their system is just a bit more gradual. But it will get you to the same place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For example, with liberation through taste we give the dying person a little bit, or we can feed it to animals, or "liberation bomb" unsuspecting ordinary people; the same with special incense, we can use the six syllables, as in my sig, sing them, sing song of the vajra; we can make a tagdrol, which assists in practice; one can use their imagination.

Aryjna said:
But isn't it a problem if someone overhears you saying the six syllables or another mantra? Excluding sutra mantras/dharanis.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to the six spaces of Samantabhadra, 'a a ha sha sa ma, there is no problem at all. You want other beings to here it. Maybe people will find it weird, but you can chant it for animals, and dying people. It is not like other mantras, wrahtful mantras in particular.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Two approaches to the nine yanas......
Content:
liuzg150181 said:
So far I have a two differing views with regards to the 9 vehicles from different Nyingma lamas:

1.) the nine vehicles are self-contained itself,for different people of diff aptitude and inclination

2,) One should with Mahayoga,then Anuyoga,then Atiyoga. Not sure if the rinpoches or lamas mentioned abt needing to traverse from Sutra three vehicle and the other three from outer tantras before that.

Which is the more mainstream Nyingma view? And how does one choose which view to follow?

Malcolm wrote:
You follow the approach of your main teacher.

liuzg150181 said:
As in the teacher one feels most devoted to?

Malcolm wrote:
Who is your main teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
I see,is liberation through mind referring to direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to practicing Dzogchen.


liuzg150181 said:
And also,better to let the others taste it,such as dissolving it in water? But isnt it more efficient to use liberation to sight or sound since many ppl can view or hear it(to a lesser extent smell,but it is expendable unlike the other two)?

Malcolm wrote:
They all have their different uses.

liuzg150181 said:
So no point doing HYT stuff that involves Creation and Completion stage once one is a serious Dzogchen practitioner?

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, not much. Of course we always have secondary conditions, and for some people the indirect Atiyoga path is more effective since it is a path based on symbols.

liuzg150181 said:
May you elaborate on the different uses part and Atiyoga path vis-a-vis HYT? For the latter do you mean creation and development stage with Dzogchen view?

Malcolm wrote:
The unsurpassed secret cycle of Atiyoga (aka sNying thig) is based on direct perception. The mind series on down is based on inference and mind.

In Atiyoga, after receiving transmission, whether elaborate or not, you practice rushan, then trekchö, then thögal. Many people, masters and students, use Anuyoga as supporting practices.  But it is not the main path. The main path is rushan, then trekchö, then thögal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
I see,is liberation through mind referring to direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to practicing Dzogchen.


liuzg150181 said:
And also,better to let the others taste it,such as dissolving it in water? But isnt it more efficient to use liberation to sight or sound since many ppl can view or hear it(to a lesser extent smell,but it is expendable unlike the other two)?

Malcolm wrote:
They all have their different uses.

liuzg150181 said:
So no point doing HYT stuff that involves Creation and Completion stage once one is a serious Dzogchen practitioner?

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, not much. Of course we always have secondary conditions, and for some people the indirect Atiyoga path is more effective since it is a path based on symbols.

liuzg150181 said:
May you elaborate on the different uses part and Atiyoga path vis-a-vis HYT? For the latter do you mean creation and development stage with Dzogchen view?

Malcolm wrote:
For example, with liberation through taste we give the dying person a little bit, or we can feed it to animals, or "liberation bomb" unsuspecting ordinary people; the same with special incense, we can use the six syllables, as in my sig, sing them, sing song of the vajra; we can make a tagdrol, which assists in practice; one can use their imagination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Two approaches to the nine yanas......
Content:
liuzg150181 said:
So far I have a two differing views with regards to the 9 vehicles from different Nyingma lamas:

1.) the nine vehicles are self-contained itself,for different people of diff aptitude and inclination

2,) One should with Mahayoga,then Anuyoga,then Atiyoga. Not sure if the rinpoches or lamas mentioned abt needing to traverse from Sutra three vehicle and the other three from outer tantras before that.

Which is the more mainstream Nyingma view? And how does one choose which view to follow?

Malcolm wrote:
You follow the approach of your main teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
I see,is liberation through mind referring to direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to practicing Dzogchen.


liuzg150181 said:
And also,better to let the others taste it,such as dissolving it in water? But isnt it more efficient to use liberation to sight or sound since many ppl can view or hear it(to a lesser extent smell,but it is expendable unlike the other two)?

Malcolm wrote:
They all have their different uses.

liuzg150181 said:
So no point doing HYT stuff that involves Creation and Completion stage once one is a serious Dzogchen practitioner?

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, not much. Of course we always have secondary conditions, and for some people the indirect Atiyoga path is more effective since it is a path based on symbols.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 14th, 2018 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through Taste Medicine???
Content:
liuzg150181 said:
At times visiting Rinpoches would distribute some medicine of sort(usually black),and it is said to be benficial to take everyday. One of them come in a paper wrapping which states something abt "Liberation Through Taste",what does it exactly means? And is it the only purpose of such medicine?
Posting in Nyingma sub-forum,as I recall this is something Nyingma-specific(and based on my memory,only Nyingma lamas and rinpoches distribute such substance).


Malcolm wrote:
The six liberations are liberation through sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, and mind.

The last is for practitioners, the others are for non-practitioners.

If you are a serious Dzogchen practitioner it is 100% guaranteed that you will attain buddhahood either in this life, the bardo, or the next life (in the nirmanakāya buddhafields if you do not find time to practice much in this life but possess the instructions and understand them) depending on your diligence. If you are not so serious, but have faith in Dzogchen teachings, than it is certain you will obtain buddhahood within a few lifetimes.

Why do I say this? It is because this is what is said in all of the six major commentaries we have on the 17 tantras, as well as what is said in the 17 tantras themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:


bhava said:
Anyway it seems to be a different style of practice than what we have in tibetan tradition, yidams, nyams, semdzins etc. View is different and way of practising is different.

Malcolm wrote:
The minds of people practicing are not different, and it is for this reason that Rongzom makes this an important point for those people who must use the indirect method of Atiyoga in chapter 6 of his Intro to Mahāyāna systems.

Instead of putting up resistance and arguing with me, go and have this experience for yourself. You will thank me, and incidentally, it is a requirement for SMS eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Malcolm, I think the problem is that we don't understand what exactly priti, vitarka etc entail. They are just abstract terms we can't really connect with anything. You can rattle off Vasubandhu's definition, but we poor saps don't know what it means beyond the words.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is not rocket science. Anyone who has done any serious meditation will recollect a time in their practice when they are able to maintain effortless one pointedness on the object, physical ease and mental happiness.

MiphamFan said:
On the Tibetan side however, which contemporary Tibetan teachers really describe these factors in terms of practice and not just Abhidharma?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no difference. Abhidharma is a practice manual, not just a bunch of theory and arguments.

MiphamFan said:
ChNN never does AFAIK. If the gurus don't really teach us these factors in terms of practice then isn't it basically ending up like the situation in Theravada of us trying to reconstruct what exactly Rongzom meant?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to discover these things for yourself, through your own experience. That means you have to discover the state of śamatha and develop it perfectly. Also, you cannot be passive and just assume that everything you need is going to come out of your guru's mouth. That is like refusing to eat unless your doctor gives you the ok.

MiphamFan said:
If one has certain nyams by doing some yidam practices, is it priti or is it sukha/bde ba in the tantric three experiences framework or just some random experience? Are priti and sukha the same, different, overlap? Do we need to try to deliberately develop these factors or will they come along naturally if we continue with our practice of yidams/guruyoga/semdzins etc?

Malcolm wrote:
If you apply the nine stage approach of developing śamatha according to the methodology laid out in the middle Bhavanakrama, then you will indeed have this experience.



Saroruhavajra also describes a nine state śamatha system applied to the Hevajra creation stage and mantra recitation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: What's wrong with democracy?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The roots of individualism and liberalism in Anglo democracies stem from, once again, the Scottish Enlightenment -- Smith, Burke, Locke, and Hume. This has nothing to do with Christ or Christianity.

Wayfarer said:
Aside from it being the culture that gave rise to the ‘Scottish Enlightenment’....

Malcolm wrote:
The culture that gave rise to the Scottish Enlightenment was a culture that was throwing off the shackles of religion. We have already discussed deism, and since "individualism" is a trait which tends to be associated with AngloAmerican culture, the influence of Epicurean atheism on the intellectual climate of the 17th and 18th centuries ought not be underestimated, as it often is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Becoming a moderator?
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
How do I become a moderator ? I think I have just falled in love with this site.

Malcolm wrote:
don't do it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 11:02 AM
Title: Re: What's wrong with democracy?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
under the influence of Machiavelli and Locke, the men who founded our system made two fateful errors. First, they came to reject the classical and religious idea that people are political and relational creatures. Instead, they placed the autonomous, choosing individual at the center of their view of human nature.
The foundation of Western individualism was the idea that Christ sacrificed himself for all mankind.



Malcolm wrote:
The roots of individualism and liberalism in Anglo democracies stem from, once again, the Scottish Enlightenment -- Smith, Burke, Locke, and Hume. This has nothing to do with Christ or Christianity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 13th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The five factors of the first dhyana are initial attention (vitarka), sometimes also referred to as coarse attention; vicara, sustained attention; sukha, i.e. physical ease; priti, i.e. mental ease, and one-pointedness. These are all described by Vasubandhu, and Rongzom does not differ in the way he uses these terms. He argues that whether one is doing ordinary śamatha or vipaśyāna or mantra practice is not important; what is important is developing the base of the first dhyāna/perfect śamatha using either method within the context of maintaining Dzogchen view.

Marc said:
Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for your answer.  But, sorry, my question wasn't really clear.

When I spoke of "lack of consensus", I was referring to the "raging debate" in the Theravada world about dhyana / jhana:
"light / soft / sutta jhana" vs. "hard / deep / visudhimagga jhana" etc...

As per Alan Wallace's interpretation of Asanga, Tsongkhapa & Co. the commentarial tradition in Mahayana is pretty much in line with that of Theravada, i.e. 1st dhyana is said to be really deep & blissful state of absorption that can be unwaveringly and seamlessly sustained for 24 hours  etc...

Is that your understanding as well ?

Thanks for your input.
M


Malcolm wrote:
The most salient characteristic of the first dhyana is it can be entered and dropped at will. Since both vitarka and vicara are absent in the second through the fourth, when one attains those, one remains in them for as long as one intends at the outset.

The first dhyana still retains mental activity.  I can't really evaluate Wallace's ideas frankly because I was not trained that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: "Forgiveness Is Not Buddhist" Article by McLeod in Tricycle
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But I think that McLeod is arguing that in the Buddhist tradition, that sense of indebtedness was never foundational in the first place so that importing forgiveness is introducing an essentially external attitude into the tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
He is wrong of course; the Buddha himself likened karma to a debt, and so too does Nāgārjuna. Given that Buddhism arose within the context of a civilization that was influenced by the Vedas, concern with debt was huge:
[E]ven the very earliest Vedic poems, composed sometime between 1500 and 1200 bc, evince a constant concern with debt— which is treated as synonymous with guilt and sin.
Graeber, David. Debt: The First 5,000 Years (p. 56). Melville House. Kindle Edition.

The Buddha also describes debt as a kind of suffering in many places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom mentions that people who are not immediately launched into realization must a) develop the five factors of the first dhyāna, and b) the way they practice is total mindfulness within the horizon of absolute attention.

Marc said:
Hi Malcolm,
Given the lack of consensus about what qualifies as full / proper development of the five factors of the 1st dhyāna, could you please let us know where you stand ?
Thx
M

Malcolm wrote:
The five factors of the first dhyana are initial attention (vitarka), sometimes also referred to as coarse attention; vicara, sustained attention; sukha, i.e. physical ease; priti, i.e. mental ease, and one-pointedness. These are all described by Vasubandhu, and Rongzom does not differ in the way he uses these terms. He argues that whether one is doing ordinary śamatha or vipaśyāna or mantra practice is not important; what is important is developing the base of the first dhyāna/perfect śamatha using either method within the context of maintaining Dzogchen view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:



Punya said:
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.

DGA said:
To your mind, is the director of The Cup a fake guru?  Is his conduct a symptom of a dark age?


Malcolm wrote:
I have already stated my opinion of DKR”s credentials. As far as I know, they are in order so far.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:



Punya said:
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.

Punya said:
I wasn't actually referring to you Malcolm (or Greg). IMO the views of serious practitioners should always be considered, even if we sometimes disagree with them. It would be nice if we could get off this topic though.

But really, are you now saying that DJKR is a charlatan?

Malcolm wrote:
I never even implied it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
bhava said:
Dear friends, I appreciate your answers. Noting/labeling is I guess one of the traditional methods that helps mind to be anchored in presence. In my experience it is very helpful, as the mind is all the time running in some conceptual thoughts anyway. Also contemplation/samadhi I think has different meaning in the context of Abhidharma and in the context dzogchen as used by CHNN.  Similiary certain level of stability of presence/mindfulness seems to be a necessity for samadhi.
Anyway I would be very interested to know, if any of you guys have attained 1st dhyana or at least access (upacara) samadhi and how do you see the relationship between recognition of rigpa and having stability in rigpa in connection with training of the mind in the above mentioned stages of meditative absorbtion. With respect and metta...

Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom mentions that people who are not immediately launched into realization must a) develop the five factors of the first dhyāna, and b) the way they practice is total mindfulness within the horizon of absolute attention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:



boda said:
But ideologically opposed to entitlements, oddly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, our friend Fa Dao is a red state freeloader.

Fa Dao said:
not actually from here...from one of the "bluer" states....but I guess we all have our "demons" to deal with eh?

Malcolm wrote:
You live there, that's enough. Anyway, New Mexico is awesome. If I were to live anywhere other than here in MA, it would be New Mexico.

Anyway, the main point is that red states are the taker states, where as the blue states are the maker states. So sure, reduce my taxes, the red states only put themselves deeper in the hole.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:
TaTa said:
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?

Punya said:
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:
Grigoris said:
Yes, well, both of those were pretty weak replies, I must say.

Malcolm wrote:
"Disparaging a guru" means that someone who is a student of that guru criticizes them to the effect that they have broken their vows, engaged in nonvirtue, are not qualified to be teachers and so on.

The only way such false gurus can be held to account is if they are disparaged, i.e., shown to be worthless as spiritual guides.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:


Grigoris said:
So in this case, for example, one does not find fault in what is being said, since what is being said is essentially faultless, so one turns to character assassination instead.  So once you convince the reader of the passage, that the person that wrote the passage has a faulty character, what does that mean?  That the passage is incorrect?  Sounds like an ad hom logic fallacy to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone can parrot a commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.

Grigoris said:
I disagree.  I think they should be held to account.

Malcolm wrote:
Under traditional definitions, that would be "disparaging" them.

Grigoris said:
I believe that people should be informed about their actions.

Malcolm wrote:
Under traditional definitions, that would be "disparaging" them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: The Real "Dark Age"
Content:
Josef said:
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking  victims of sexual abuse on the internet.

Grigoris said:
And Vajrayana practitioners disparaging Gurus...

Malcolm wrote:
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 12th, 2018 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
boda said:
Fact, overall, people in red states use more federal dollars than they pay out in federal taxes.
But ideologically opposed to entitlements, oddly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, our friend Fa Dao is a red state freeloader.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:


Fa Dao said:
CA is a blue state and although I haven't seen the figures as you apparently have I find it hard to believe they are not using more than their fair share as you say the red states are doing. That being said, I'm not familiar with statistically determined electoral districts but as long as it preserves each states rights and doesn't put CA, NY, and TX in control of the entire country then cool, right?

Malcolm wrote:
California receives less than a dollar back for every dollar they send to DC.

Fa Dao said:
For nearly 80 years, poorer, low-tax states — where anti-government ideology and hostility to Washington, D.C., have generally flourished — have benefited disproportionately from federal spending.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/10/30/blue-states-already-subsidize-red-states-now-red-states-want-even-more/?utm_term=.446d3d359241

Fa Dao said:
What the resulting map shows is that the most “dependent states,” as measured by the composite score, are Mississippi and New Mexico, each of which gets back about $3 in federal spending for every dollar they send to the federal treasury in taxes. Alabama and Louisiana are close behind.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/

Fa Dao said:
[W]ho really benefits from government spending? If you listen to Rush Limbaugh, you might think it was those blue states, packed with damn hippie socialist liberals, sipping their lattes and providing free abortions for bored, horny teenagers. ...

As it turns out, it is red states that are overwhelmingly the Welfare Queen States. Yes, that's right. Red States—the ones governed by folks who think government is too big and spending needs to be cut—are a net drain on the economy, taking in more federal spending than they pay out in federal taxes. They talk a good game, but stick Blue States with the bill.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.businessinsider.com/red-states-are-welfare-queens-2011-8#!IpqnG

Fa Dao said:
The extent to which the average American’s tax burden varies based on his or her state of residence represents a significant point of differentiation among state economies. But it’s only one piece of the puzzle.

What if, for example, a particular state can afford not to tax its residents at high rates because it receives disproportionately more funding from the federal government than states with apparently oppressive tax codes? That would change the narrative significantly, revealing federal dependence where bold, efficient stewardship was once thought to preside.

The idea of the American freeloader burst into the public consciousness when #47percent started trending on Twitter in 2012. And while the notion is senselessly insulting to millions of hardworking Americans, it is true that some states receive a far higher return on their federal income-tax contributions than others.

Just how pronounced is this disparity? And to what extent does it alter our perception of state and local tax rates around the country? WalletHub sought to answer those questions by comparing the 50 states in terms of three key metrics. Read on for our findings, expert commentary and a detailed methodology.

Malcolm wrote:
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Fa Dao said:
If a way isn't found that would give each state equal say in how the country is governed it simply wont work...states will end up wanting to secede from the union. I have lived or visited all over the country and there is no way say Montana or Wyoming or New Mexico would be happy with the way say New York or California would have the country run. Face it, the electoral college isn't great but its better than everything else out there...sad but true

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, well, we blue states are sick to death of our taxes supporting the red states inability to pay their own fricking way. Fact, overall, people in red states use more federal dollars than they pay out in federal taxes.

The reality is that the electoral college disenfranchises the urban/blue state vote. That shit just isn't going to stand.

Statistically determined electoral distracts will eliminate the need for the EC and gerrymandering. It's the way to go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:
fckw said:
Alright, thanks for your replies. Not sure I will attend if there are expected only very little teachings. Otherwise I end up with a great transmission and no clue how it could meaningfully improve my meditation practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Depending on how it is given, the empowerments themselves are chock full of teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Khenpo Sonam of Bhutan - Padgyal Lingpa lineage
Content:
WeiHan said:
This lady that is in charge of all these programme quarreled with Gangteng Rinpoche, continue to use Rinpoche's centre "trademark"- "Yeshe Khorlo" as the centre's name, use it to host all other small names masters programme but Gangteng rinpoche's programme is no longer host by this centre in Singapore. When Rinpoche accepted invitation by other group in Singapore for a Guru Rinpoche's retreat programme, she became jealous, quarrelled with some people who attend the other programme and it maybe the eventual cause that she quarrelled with Rinpoche later.

Malcolm wrote:
Interestingly, Singporeans caused the Singpore Gar of Dzogchen Community to be disbanded last year. How? They quarreled in front of ChNN.

Virgo said:
That must have been a hefty quarrel.

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
It was apparently. They had gone to Tenerife to resolve some disputes over integrating with the IDC, but there was one faction that insisted on control of the Gar. So the boss deep-sixed it since they could not get it together.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Khenpo Sonam of Bhutan - Padgyal Lingpa lineage
Content:
WeiHan said:
This lady that is in charge of all these programme quarreled with Gangteng Rinpoche, continue to use Rinpoche's centre "trademark"- "Yeshe Khorlo" as the centre's name, use it to host all other small names masters programme but Gangteng rinpoche's programme is no longer host by this centre in Singapore. When Rinpoche accepted invitation by other group in Singapore for a Guru Rinpoche's retreat programme, she became jealous, quarrelled with some people who attend the other programme and it maybe the eventual cause that she quarrelled with Rinpoche later.

Malcolm wrote:
Interestingly, Singporeans caused the Singpore Gar of Dzogchen Community to be disbanded last year. How? They quarreled in front of ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 11th, 2018 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:



PeterC said:
The electoral college should be consigned to the dustbin of history. It was intended to avoid a geographic segmentation of the electorate, though it's not clear it was ever really needed for that. It's now perpetuated an absurd situation where the presidential elections turn on a vanishingly small number of counties. Pretty sure Madison et al never in their worst nightmares imagined this.

Malcolm wrote:
The Electoral college was about preserving slavery, actually.

Luckily SCOTUS is reviewing not one, but two challenges to unfair gerrymandering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 10th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
PeterC said:
It would still not be a good idea to bet on a Democrat win in 2020. It is their absolute, pathetic failure as a party that has given us Trump's farcical presidency just as much as it was the venality of the Republicans. The same combination could quite possibly give us President Pence in 2020 if Trump has crashed and burned by that point. A Democrat senate this year is certainly possible, but that's the most we can reasonably hope for.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the Dems took the popular vote by more than 3 million. Had they run anyone other than Clinton, they would have won hands down. The Green Party, once again, screwed the Dems and left us with Trump. It is a fact that the Green Party took enough votes away from the Dems in Penn, Oh, and Wis to turn the electoral college in favor of Trump.

Fa Dao said:
Malcolm, with all due respect that is getting to be a rather lame argument.  Bottomline, #1 Clinton was a horrible candidate, too many controversies over too many years as well as her being the poster child for establishment politics

Malcolm wrote:
Addressed in the second sentence.


Fa Dao said:
#2 You know full well that the electoral college is in place because if it wasn't then California, Texas, and New York would decide virtually all of the presidential elections...and nobody wants that.

Malcolm wrote:
I do.

Fa Dao said:
and #3 Trump, for all of his incredibly obvious downfalls knew this and outplayed her and the DNC at their own game.

Malcolm wrote:
No he hasn't. He is a bumbling fool who thought he was going to lose.


Fa Dao said:
Its ridiculous to think/say that all of Trumps supporters are white nationalists/racists..that would be almost half the country.

Malcolm wrote:
White people are pretty racist, in my experience, even in Massachusetts. Can't tell you how many times I have heard the N word attached to Obama's name, even up here. Given our history, thinking that almost half the country is racist really isn't a stretch at all.

Fa Dao said:
People all over the country are sick to death of "establishment politics as usual" ...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, they did not get that. They got a stronger Mitch McConnel and more deeply embedded establishment politics.  Trump is doing the bidding of the establishment. To quote McConnel, "He will sign whatever we put on his desk." Trump himself stated as much yesterday.


Fa Dao said:
Sorry man, she lost fair and square..get over it and move on so that he doesn't do it again in 2020. Please understand...it truly is not my intention to piss you off...

Malcolm wrote:
I never said she did not lose fair and square. What I said was that votes for the Greens put Trump over the top in three battleground states -- this is demonstrable. But Clinton lost because she was a terrible candidate with an entitlement problem. But she would have been a far better president than Trump, as Bernie has said repeatedly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 10th, 2018 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Nyingtig Yabshi Germany 2018 Questions
Content:
fckw said:
@heart: Then I'm a little confused. I understood that first there's the Yamantaka transmission that takes 2 days or so (22 - 23.9.). After this there the retreat is apparently going on till 30.9., so in other words for the Nyingtik Yabshi 7 days are planned in. I am just wondering, if I would like to receive concrete instructions how to practice after the transmission whom I could rely on.

Malcolm wrote:
I doubt there will be much teaching. Each empowerment at least one long day (8 hours plus) to give. Some are better given over two days.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 10th, 2018 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
PeterC said:
It would still not be a good idea to bet on a Democrat win in 2020. It is their absolute, pathetic failure as a party that has given us Trump's farcical presidency just as much as it was the venality of the Republicans. The same combination could quite possibly give us President Pence in 2020 if Trump has crashed and burned by that point. A Democrat senate this year is certainly possible, but that's the most we can reasonably hope for.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the Dems took the popular vote by more than 3 million. Had they run anyone other than Clinton, they would have won hands down. The Green Party, once again, screwed the Dems and left us with Trump. It is a fact that the Green Party took enough votes away from the Dems in Penn, Oh, and Wis to turn the electoral college in favor of Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 10th, 2018 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?
Content:
krodha said:
Jñāna is a function of rig pa [vidyā]. If you are resting in rigpa your modality of cognition is jñāna. Just as when you are in marigpa your modality of cognition is vijñāna [rnam shes].

Jyoti said:
The last point you mentioned also apply to the state of clinging to intrinsic awareness of dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
He is talking about rigpa. Vidyā = rigpa = intrinsic awareness (a horrible mistranslation of rang rig, aka rang gi rig pa, that is, one's vidyā).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: The Future
Content:



cyril said:
Apocryphal legend or not, the land of red faces is most likely Tibet, not the West.

https://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/

The West is the land of the blue-eye demons

TharpaChodron said:
You're probably right.  But the Native Americans are also known as having red faces and skin, at least by European perspective.  Hence, we have football teams called the Redskins.

cyril said:
Yes, I'm aware of that but I somehow I find it strange for a terma text to use some slang terms based on an European perspective. I heard that the redskin term derives from the now-extinct Beothuk people from Newfoundland which the Europeans encountered in their early stages of colonising North America and which used to paint their skin with red ochre. Later, the term was apparently extrapolated to all the other Native tribes despite the fact that most of them did not share that red ochre skin-painting custom with the Beothuk. So, I don't know, but somehow I find it hard to believe that Padmasambhava could have chosen this particular identifier for the Native American populations.

Malcolm wrote:
Especially since the references to red-face people come from a prediction about Tibetans found in a sūtra of Khotanese authorship in the Tibetan canon. Tibetan warriors used to paint their faces red. And they used to invade Khotan, a lot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: The Future
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
I'm finding all the comments on this subject very interesting.  I hope Greg is right, though.

And so which of you can tell me if that story about the prophecy, you know the one where the Dharma spreads when the iron horse or whatnot flies (i'm obviously mangling it badly) is an apocryphal legend, or is there some truth that Pasmasambhava made that prediction?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a prophecy that has no source that anyone can actually find. Thus, it is in the category of fake buddha quotes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Urgent help people!
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Hey guys. So today I went to an empowerment by Kyabgön Phakchok Rinpoche. There was a Puja and then empowerment. So I sat for 6-7 hours straight. However my body was so uncomfortable the whole day there - like literally being bodily tortured of some sort. I really enjoyed his teachings though and I do wish to go again tomorrow , but why do you think my whole body felt so uncomfortable ? - leg cramps butt cramps back pain. Do you think it might be ripening of intense bad karma ?

So I am now contemplating whether to go again tmr or not. Give me some advice guys please ... thanks! I just am afraid to get the pains again tmr . What should I do???

Malcolm wrote:
Sit in a chair.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Sum-pa Language?
Content:
tingdzin said:
In case it wasn't in the stuff you read, a theory is that the Sumpa are the same people earlier described as the Hsien-pi in older Chinese sources, i.e. proto-Monolians.

Malcolm wrote:
That makes sense phonetically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Skillful means and Dzogchen
Content:


CedarTree said:
I post here because of the deep information that people like Kevin and Malcolm have even if I have to press and almost "trick" sometimes to get it lol.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested in Dzogchen teachings, get thee to a Dzogchen master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 9th, 2018 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: The Future
Content:
Simon E. said:
But given the fact that many of us turned to Dharma because of our disillusionment with materialism it might be that for younger people social media might eventually be the 'schoolteacher' that leads them to Dharma.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not disillusioned with materialism, I am just not very good at it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: pre-emptive contemplation in difficult situations?
Content:
Jyoti said:
intelligence.

Malcolm wrote:
What Tibetan word do you mean by "intelligence."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: The Debate of Astavakra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Uuuuuuummmmmmm... No?

"The spontaneous unassumed behaviour of the wise is noteworthy, but not the deliberate, intentional stillness of the fool."

Ashtavakragita Chapter 18 Verse 52
The supreme soul unaffected by happiness and misery really exists-


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: The Debate of Astavakra
Content:
Grigoris said:
"You are free, still, self-luminous, stainless.Trying to keep yourself peaceful by meditation is your bondage."

Ashtavakragita Chapter 1 Verse 15

Malcolm wrote:
Why are you advocating a view of atman on a Buddhist forum?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Sum-pa Language?
Content:
pemachophel said:
loppon-la,

is that the same sumpa as in sumpa khenpo? if so, that'd place it in amdo. Yes?

in any case, thanks once again for your erudition.

Malcolm wrote:
It is the same sum pa.

Perhaps at the time the text was written, people in that region spoke a language substantially different than Tibetan. Usually, the list follows the order of languages it has been translated from, in this case from Zhang Zhung language, to Sum pa, then into Chinese, and then finally into Tibetan, meaning it is a text of Bonpo origin in all likelihood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Sum-pa Language?
Content:
pemachophel said:
can anyone tell me what the "sum-pa" laguage is (as in sum-pa'i ked-du)?

e.g.,

Zhang-zhung-gi ked-du: Ta-la-pa-ta-ya-na-ha
Sum-pai ked-du: A-ra-na-ba-li-ya
Gya-gar ked-du: Naga Raja Dhaya
Bod ked-du: Lui Pang-kong

Malcolm wrote:
Sum pa is a region in northern Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: People to Avoid
Content:


Motova said:
People who center their lives and identities around pride parades?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing wrong with pride parades. I mean, who does not want to see paunchy old men wearing assless chaps?

Motova said:
I mean people whose whole life is a pride parade.

Similar to a Buddhist who might wear multiple malas, and chant mantras out loud on public transit (i.e. a Buddhist parade).


Malcolm wrote:
We don't condition others and neither do we care much what other people do as long as it does not harm others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:



Motova said:
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.

Malcolm wrote:
In the beginning it is necessary.

Motova said:
Does Rinpoche have a book that goes indepth into the development and stages of presence?

Malcolm wrote:
No, but he talks about presence/mindfulness in every retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: People to Avoid
Content:


Motova said:
People who center their lives and identities around pride parades?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing wrong with pride parades. I mean, who does not want to see paunchy old men wearing assless chaps?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?

Malcolm wrote:
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.

Motova said:
I was under the impression presence didn't need internal vocalization.

Malcolm wrote:
In the beginning it is necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: People to Avoid
Content:



Invokingvajras said:
Only as instructed in the text, which is why I've begun to wonder if the range of association refer to those bodhisattvas who are already ordained.

Malcolm wrote:
The instruction to avoid visiting sex workers was for householder bodhisattvas.


Invokingvajras said:
Personal experience would so far dictate that there's a very good reason to presume a connection between the degeneration of Dharma and the normalization of certain attitudes and behaviors in modern society. To be quite frank, we're barbarous in many ways.

Malcolm wrote:
There have been LGBQT people always, in all cultures. It is good these things have been normalized. People should not be judged for their gender orientation.

As far as I am concerned, there is no connection between the degeneration of Dharma and the normalization of equality for blacks, women and LGBQT people. If the institutions of Dharma have no room for them, than the institutions of Dharma are themselves is degenerate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: The Future
Content:
Simon E. said:
You think 20 or30 years is enough to straighten out countless aeons of wandering?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teachings, five minutes is about the right amount of time, and that might be too long.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.

Pero said:
See, this is just what I was talking about. I've never heard Rinpoche say anything like this. You're saying everyone has contemplation, where for Rinpoche contemplation is being in rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
"Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds," is a basic definition from Abhidharma.

When Rinpoche discusses "contemplation," he most frequently resorts to an example from the Samadhirāja Sūtra which maintains that a second of samadhi purifies more karma than eons of merit based practices.

All sentient beings have samadhi, it is what they so with it that determines whether they continue in samsara or achieve awakening; there are mundane samadhis and transcendent samadhis and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2018 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: "Objectivity" and objective moral values
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
I see,basically just like "secular Buddhism"......
Btw,had googled abt the book and the author,sound interesting. Shall read it if i have the chance.

Malcolm wrote:
Secular Buddhists reject karma and rebirth, unlike Madhyamikas. But it would not be wrong to call Buddhadharma the deism of ancient India.

liuzg150181 said:
Very interesting PoV,since BuddhaDharma rejects first cause,including an eternal ontological Creator God whiling acknowledging and respecting(though not taking refuge) Vedic/Hindu deities as samsaric being?


Malcolm wrote:
Those who followed Epicurean philosophy closely also rejected creation by a creator:
That in no wise the nature of all things
For us was fashioned by a power divine-
Book V, De rerum natura

Jefferson owned five copies of this book, and wrote a famous letter, I too am an Epicurean, in 1819.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:



Aryjna said:
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?

Malcolm wrote:
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.

liuzg150181 said:
Counting breath,or merely just put the mind between the nose and lip for the sensation(like method used by anapanasati)?

Malcolm wrote:
No, for five minutes you repeat to yourself everything you are doing. "Now I am breathing out, now I am breathing in; now I am drinking, now I am talking, now I am not talking, now I am going to the toilet, now I am eating, now I am talking on the phone, now I have hung up the phone, now I am posting on DW," etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: "Objectivity" and objective moral values
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
Huh? At one point a decade ago I was a dilly-dally Deist(with the idea of unity of the phenomenon of universe and self),and checked out Deism forum. It seems the members were rather antagonistic towards atheism and found more resonance with Monotheistic religion followers such as Christians. At the very least they believe a Creator God as first cause(albeit rather hands off with the creation).

Malcolm wrote:
This is a modern, reconstructed Deism. You should read the book written by Stewart. It is really interesting. He shows very clearly the Deism of Jefferson and Ethan Allen is just atheism.

liuzg150181 said:
The real story of America’s philosophical origins properly begins in ancient Greece, and its first protagonist is the most famous atheist in the history of modern thought.

Malcolm wrote:
Stewart, Matthew. Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic (p. 80). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

It is also important to recall that Candrakīrit quips in the Prasannapāda that the primary difference between materialists of his day and Madhyamakas is that materialists rejected karma, while Madhyamakas accepted it.

liuzg150181 said:
I see,basically just like "secular Buddhism"......
Btw,had googled abt the book and the author,sound interesting. Shall read it if i have the chance.

Malcolm wrote:
Secular Buddhists reject karma and rebirth, unlike Madhyamikas. But it would not be wrong to call Buddhadharma the deism of ancient India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: The Future
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The presence or absence of Buddhadharma in the world is dependent on the presence or absence of the world's merit. When the world's merit is in decline, Buddhadharma declines, for example, we can see this with nations. As Tibet's merit as a nation declined, so too did Buddhadharma decline in that nation and the institutions which acted as supports for Buddhadharma also became increasingly corrupted, such as the tulku system, the monastic system, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: ChNN on presence
Content:


Pero said:
My advice would be to take things you read from (most) people online with a large grain of salt (including me haha). Better to rely on authentic teacher's explanations whether oral or written. For example contemplation hasn't got much to do with the thinking faculty or intelligence as far as I know.

Malcolm wrote:
"Contemplation" is ChNN's translation of ting nge 'dzin, samadhi. Samadhi is a neutral mental factor possessed by all minds. It is what you do with it that turns it into a faculty for nirvana or a faculty for samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: People to Avoid
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yup, can't hang out with paṇḍakas or visit veśyās, what is a poor lay bodhisattva to do?


Invokingvajras said:
Well, most of us in the US have to hold onto a job, and often times coworkers and employers will fall under these categories.

Malcolm wrote:
You can't seriously be suggesting that you take those passages literally, or find cause in them to avoid LGBQT folks, impotent men, sex addicts or sex workers?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I dont know man...smells like a setup...like some kind of misdirection...

climb-up said:
The book, or the entire Trump presidency?
...or both?

Fa Dao said:
The book, but I suppose you could also say his entire presidency as well. Everyone keeps making the mistake, IMO, of underestimating this man and until that stops he wont be stopped and will go on to win in 2020.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh for lord's sake -- that idiot only won by 77K votes in the three states which were crucial to his electoral college win, and in those states the Green Party took votes away from Democrats the latter otherwise would have had.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:


climb-up said:
I don't have transmissions for Longde (I am correct that it requires it's own specific transmission, right?), but I am curious about this:
If ChNN's understanding of a teaching (longde in this case) is unique and not the same as generally taught or practiced it would seem that students of ChNN would practice according to his understanding. Is that correct or, having received transmission, are students free to investigate others understandings and come to their own conclusions?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, apart from ChNN, no Tibetan teachers actually teach sems sde and klong sde in the west. So it is all kind of a moot point.

climb-up said:
Oh, yes I guess it is then.
And it does need specific transmission right? Is it only given in SMS trainings?


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN gives Longde regularly, usually once a year or so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:


climb-up said:
I don't have transmissions for Longde (I am correct that it requires it's own specific transmission, right?), but I am curious about this:
If ChNN's understanding of a teaching (longde in this case) is unique and not the same as generally taught or practiced it would seem that students of ChNN would practice according to his understanding. Is that correct or, having received transmission, are students free to investigate others understandings and come to their own conclusions?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, apart from ChNN, no Tibetan teachers actually teach sems sde and klong sde in the west. So it is all kind of a moot point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:


florin said:
But are you suggesting that longde can still be seen as an independent path that starts with longde and finishes with longde, and is totally separate,  independent from any preliminaries  or practices that we may think it should precede the main practice ?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. The Vajra Bridge makes it pretty clear that this is the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:




florin said:
But if you do SMS program you would do lots of preliminaries before getting at the longde level isn't it ?

Malcolm wrote:
Each level has its prelims and main practice.

florin said:
Yes that is what i meant more  or less.
I could be wrong but in my understanding, the view of CNNR when it comes to longde about when and in what circumstances we should praxtice it, assumes that we have tried lots of preliminaries and variety of practices that develop capacity for contemplation had some experiences developed some unerstanding yet we are still uncertain about our real nature.


Malcolm wrote:
That is due to ChNN's unique understanding of the relationship between the three statements and the three series. But the three statements of Garab Dorje as well as the three series found in the Nyinthig would have been unknown to Pang Mipham Gonpo, the two Dzengs, and so on. The Vajra Bridge literature does talk about three series, but they are sūtra, tantra, and ati; not sems, klong, and man ngag lde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Interesting....Thanks Malcolm! So no prelims...they would just jump right in with Anuyoga style Ngondzog Gyalpo and 4 Da?


florin said:
But if you do SMS program you would do lots of preliminaries before getting at the longde level isn't it ?

Malcolm wrote:
Each level has its prelims and main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Interesting....Thanks Malcolm! So no prelims...they would just jump right in with Anuyoga style Ngondzog Gyalpo and 4 Da?

Malcolm wrote:
So it seems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: "Objectivity" and objective moral values
Content:


liuzg150181 said:
Huh? At one point a decade ago I was a dilly-dally Deist(with the idea of unity of the phenomenon of universe and self),and checked out Deism forum. It seems the members were rather antagonistic towards atheism and found more resonance with Monotheistic religion followers such as Christians. At the very least they believe a Creator God as first cause(albeit rather hands off with the creation).

Malcolm wrote:
This is a modern, reconstructed Deism. You should read the book written by Stewart. It is really interesting. He shows very clearly the Deism of Jefferson and Ethan Allen is just atheism.

liuzg150181 said:
The real story of America’s philosophical origins properly begins in ancient Greece, and its first protagonist is the most famous atheist in the history of modern thought.

Malcolm wrote:
Stewart, Matthew. Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic (p. 80). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.

It is also important to recall that Candrakīrit quips in the Prasannapāda that the primary difference between materialists of his day and Madhyamakas is that materialists rejected karma, while Madhyamakas accepted it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Good west coast wine?
Content:
Simon E. said:
Can a Brit make a nod towards the Duxoup range?
How affordable they are in terms of your domestic market I am not sure..but they are quality.

Malcolm wrote:
They are quite reasonable. Nothing more than 25$.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 7th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, reading A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy is good for starters.

Marc said:
In this ocean of publications of fluctuating quality, do you know of one that particularly stand out ?
Thx

Malcolm wrote:
I meant the one called A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy published by Princeton.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Reibeam said:
Thanks Pero

I have a recording on another computer in another state. I figured someone would know on here instead of me having to buy it again for one minute detail.

Malcolm wrote:
In general it is the melody in Shitro


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Reibeam said:
I was wondering if anyone remembers if in the Longsal Ngondro (six lokas combine with Vajrasattva) the long Vajrasattva mantra is sung the same way it is in the Shitro or if we do it the same way we do in the Ganapuja? If I am not mistaken I think you can do both depending on time and circumstances.

Malcolm wrote:
Get the recording...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of right view: mundane right view and transcendent right view. The latter arises from the former.

pael said:
What to read for achieving mundane right view? Is Sutta Nipata good?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but Prajñāpāramita is better.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Longde/Vajra bridge rushens and semdzins
Content:
Fa Dao said:
In the Longde Vajra bridge does anyone know if they used rushens and semdzins? And if so were they the same or different as the ones more commonly used?

Malcolm wrote:
They do not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Good west coast wine?
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Are there any good  wine companies that are not owned by Gallo or  Constellation Brands that are easily found and put out
quality affordable reds and whites?

Malcolm wrote:
Duckhorn has a second label called Decoy. They make excellent, inexpensive Cabs, Merlots, Pinots, etc., primarily from Sonoma grapes. Average cost 20-25$

Layercake is another even more affordable, but decent quality label, average price, 15-17$. They source wine from CA, Chile, Australia, and France.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Queequeg said:
From the records we have, of civilizations coming in contact with Hunter gatherer tribes, they sound like vicious people.

Grigoris said:
I imagine I would be vicious if I had to protect my family (tribe) and myself from destructive colonial encroachment, slavery and extinction.

Queequeg said:
There's no indication the Huns were being enslaved. No indication the Mongols or Manchus were being enslaved.

If you're talking about people at levels of development like tribes in the jungles of Borneo and the Amazon, you're trying to peer back into the mists of history. Maybe, but I'm skeptical it was such an ideal.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to Amazonian Indians there is increasing evidence that they are the remnant of much more vast, populous civilization that collapsed in the century following the arrival of Colombus from disease. We know this because of the discovery of vast tracts of datable, prepared soil in many parts of the Amazon basin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
... the study of real Samkhya, Yoga, Vedanta is a serious thing which I respect greatly, even though I think their view is mistaken. But there is a lot for Buddhists to gain by studying real Indian tenets if only so they can avoid porting such mistaken views into their own practice.

Marc said:
Hi Malcolm,
Would you have a some resources in mind to recommend for those of us who may want to do so ?
Thx
M

Malcolm wrote:
Well, reading A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy is good for starters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: "Objectivity" and objective moral values
Content:



Wayfarer said:
The whole issue that I am trying to understand is 'how did scientific materialism become a substitute for religion?' It's really not a simple thing to understand. The Secular West is the expression of a conditioning process which unfolded over millenia and has arrived at a state of  - let's see  - false consciousness. So I'm trying to understand how that happened, and I've read quite a bit on this subject. The 'rise of nominalism' is one component.

Malcolm wrote:
The secular west is a natural consequence of the Scottish Enlightenment. In particular, it can be traced to the popularity of the rediscovery of Epicurean atheism in the writings of Lucretius's De rerum natura:

Whilst human kind
Throughout the lands lay miserably crushed
Before all eyes beneath Religion- who
Would show her head along the region skies,
Glowering on mortals with her hideous face-
A Greek it was who first opposing dared
Raise mortal eyes that terror to withstand,
Whom nor the fame of Gods nor lightning's stroke
Nor threatening thunder of the ominous sky
Abashed; but rather chafed to angry zest
His dauntless heart to be the first to rend
The crossbars at the gates of Nature old.
And thus his will and hardy wisdom won;
And forward thus he fared afar, beyond
The flaming ramparts of the world, until
He wandered the unmeasurable All.
Whence he to us, a conqueror, reports
What things can rise to being, what cannot,
And by what law to each its scope prescribed,
Its boundary stone that clings so deep in Time.
Wherefore Religion now is under foot,
And us his victory now exalts to heaven.
Deism was merely a polite name for 18th century atheists, and the term "nature's god" is just a term used for natural laws of physics and the like:
RATH: So can you tell us - back in 1776, what did nature's God refer to?

STEWART: So nature's God is one - a deity that operates entirely through laws - natural laws - that are explicable. And we have to approach this god through the study of nature and also evidence and experience. So it's a dramatically different kind of deity from that you find in most revealed religions.
https://www.npr.org/2014/07/13/331133858/founders-claimed-a-subversive-right-to-natures-god


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Wayfarer said:
There’s an article by Wolff in https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/michael-wolff-my-insane-year-inside-trumps-white-house-1071504 about the book. Wolff points out that at the outset, he asked Trump if he could spend time at the West Wing and write a book, and conveys the fact that Trump didn’t really seem to understand the question, but didn’t say ‘no’. So the existence of this book itself is a consequence of Trump’s incompetence! Wolff has hundreds of hours of recordings in support of the book. I would say he’s performed an invaluable public service.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is really going to be fun watching the USS Donald Trump sink with all hands...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: People to Avoid
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
Can you understand the text? I have been trying for a while. Its not like reading sūtra material at all.

That being said, these are all commentaries on the LS that deal with the 十惱亂, of which the 五不男 are one. If you are so obliged, if you can understand the Chinese, could you kindly PM me with what you can make of it?

PeterC said:
These commentaries are written to be read together with the text it's commenting on, which makes reading them out of context a bit harder. I'll need to go back to the original sutra to do a decent translation - may be a while before I have time to do that, though, at this time of the year. But the comments specifically on the 十惱亂 aren't particularly revelatory, mostly says that avoiding them assists your practice.

Invokingvajras said:
That's insightful. Personal experience would prove this to be rather true, though I can't help but wonder if it's full application would only be possible if one were ordained a bhikṣu. To practice the bodhisattva path as a lay person in today's world seems to make avoidance of the 十惱亂 virtually impossible.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, can't hang out with paṇḍakas or visit veśyās, what is a poor lay bodhisattva to do?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
Simon E. said:
If its merely intellectual its not right view.
I am not sure you understand the terminology you are using....'Fuki'.

fuki said:
Are you familiar with correct and incorrect function?

For instance false speech or "untruths" can function correctly in order to shake up a student.
Many Buddhist teachers use it all the time, if you think all that comes out of your teachers mouth is always "right" you might have missed it

The Dharma is fluid, not fixed.


Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma has one purpose, freeing sentient beings from desire, hatred, and ignorance. That's it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


fuki said:
Yes, I never intended to say that it does or doesn't nor do I find such conversations to hold any merit though.
I'm 95% Buddhist btw eventhough there are no Buddhists only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination

Virgo said:
Views govern the realm of the intellect, however, they also guide our meditation, and so on.  Wrong views, can and will block our realization because of that.  Therefore study and reflection become essential.  Discussion is part and parcel of study and reflection, especially discussion with gentlemen like Malcolm, who are very learned.

Kevin

fuki said:
Yes and no (for me) for instance seeing dependent origination in everyday life (so not intellectual study) is a spontaneous observation or seeing which compared to the study of DO the doctrine is useless, it's the dharma of prajna. But as a Ch'an practisioner I also see many ppl holding "right view" according to the doctrine but yet are completely stuck in a loophole of their own narrative, right isn't always right if you catch my drift. I enjoy discussing with Malcolm we had some interesting encounters on E-sangha but then I left and resided on ZFI only, Malcolm is very learned indeed much more then I will ever be. Wrong view is the obstacle for sure, but right view can be just as much an obstacle, if the view is merely intellectual.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of right view: mundane right view and transcendent right view. The latter arises from the former. There can be a problem if a person mistakes their mundane conceptual right view for the transcendent right view of realization. For this reason we need genuine teachers who can set us straight if we err in mistaking our conceptual right view for the right view of realization. But people like Adyashanti are so far away from anything remotely resembling right view, well...you know what I think. On the other hand, people like Adyadhanti, Andrew Cohen, Eckart Tolle, etc. are not for serious people. They are for people who like spiritual fast food. Even though I think they contain errors, the study of real Samkhya, Yoga, Vedanta is a serious thing which I respect greatly, even though I think their view is mistaken. But there is a lot for Buddhists to gain by studying real Indian tenets if only so they can avoid porting such mistaken views into their own practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


fuki said:
Ah I see what you mean, yes it looks like BS I agree, then again I know famous zen teachers who said something similar, it depends on the context and the function of the speech. To just put something like that in itself might be confusing, the perks of the intraweb.

can you tell me where that quote is from?
I suspect thats its about the nature of perception instead of what you think its about.

Malcolm wrote:
It comes from this:

https://d1c742hwzmv7ke.cloudfront.net/library/The_Way_of_Liberation_Ebook.pdf

It is filled with similar moronic platitudes and nonsense, like this little gem of meaninglessness:

Just as presence is an expression of being, so too is being an expression of the Infinite.  The Infinite is ultimate Reality, and is beyond all conceptualizations and experiences. It is the ultimate ground of all being, all existence, all dimensions, and all perceptions. It is transcendent of all categories, all descriptions, all imaginings. It is beyond ego, self, presence, being (and non- being ), and oneness, but it is not other than these either. Neither conceivable nor experienceable, the Infinite knows itself through a simple intuitive regard it has for itself in every aspect of itself.  Thus the only thing that realizes the Infinite is the Infinite. And only such realization brings an end to the mind’s restless search for God, Truth, and meaning.
Sadly, there are people that just lap up this kind of spiritual soft drink and rot their intellectual teeth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
fuki said:
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.

Malcolm wrote:
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.

fuki said:
Interesting none of my Ch'an teacher ever said such a thing, can you elaborate?


Malcolm wrote:
For example, this statement:
At this very moment, Reality and completeness are in plain sight. In fact, the only thing there is to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or feel, is Reality, or God if you like.
This is completely wrong in every possible way. It sounds groovy, but it is total bullshit. If sense objects were reality, everyone and every creature would be free of delusion at all times. This is merely one of many problems with his "teachings." It is a bunch of uniquely Bay Area New Age Bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
fuki said:
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.

Malcolm wrote:
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:



fuki said:
Why do you keep up bringing views?

Malcolm wrote:
Because, as the great Zen master Śākyamuni Buddha observed, right view is the first limb of the path.

And also, the great Zen master Āryadeva stated, "Realization comes from the view."

In other words you cannot get anywhere practicing with the incorrect views of nonbuddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


fuki said:
I understand your concern but neti neti is non-affirmative, that is if understood and practised correctly. But it is not my intention to confuse, for myself practising under Ch'an and vendata systems the practise is the same, the "view" I have no business with, just the expedients and the outcome of practise.

Malcolm wrote:
Neti neti is most definitely an affirming negation. What does it affirm? The Upanishadic atman. The Buddha refutes this atman.

Which atman does the Buddha not refute? The conventional atman imputed upon the five aggregates.

The view of Chan and Vedanta cannot be the same. It is quite impossible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


fuki said:
neti neti

Malcolm wrote:
Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.

fuki said:
Not so, in Buddhism its called "don't know" (kwan um) or "non-dwelling mind" (hui hai) for instance.

Malcolm wrote:
It is so: neti neti is an affirming negation. "Don't know" is a non-affirming negation.

People who do not properly study tenet systems often make the mistake of conflating tīrthika views with the view of Buddhadharma. It's a pity, because they block their realization with sophistry and concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:


fuki said:
neti neti

Malcolm wrote:
Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.

Grigoris said:
While I agree, there are plenty of others out there that will disagree.  Not that I want to play the Devil's advocate.

Malcolm wrote:
Those people who disagree are simply ignorant of the Buddha's teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
Content:
Simon E. said:
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two.

Grigoris said:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Queequeg said:
Sorry bout the typo. Lol. Right up there with minibus.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it surpasses minibus by a large margin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Grigoris said:
Pizza is Italian.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it is as American as apple pie. And bagels. And hamburgers. And hot dogs.

aflatun said:
Totes. But that's one bad thing about California, or two. Pizza and bagels. Californians don't know shyte about pizza and bagels. I was recently back in NY and couldn't believe the level of pizza and bagel I had grown accustomed to on the best coast

Malcolm wrote:
Believe it not, but they did a test of bagels, using exact same production methods in NYC and in SF. The NYC bagels still tasted better. In the end, it was decided that the difference was the water used in the process.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This will be tossed out of court in a New York minute.

Wayfarer said:
Here's hoping!

Malcolm wrote:
In the US, public figures are generally barred from bring defamation suits. If I recall correctly, in fall of 2016 Trump tried to bring a defamation suit against someone and it was laughed out of court with the judge saying that Trump had so damaged his own reputation, no one could do worse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Grigoris said:
Pizza is Italian.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it is as American as apple pie. And bagels. And hamburgers. And hot dogs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: "Objectivity" and objective moral values
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I think all the arguments against God can be used with equal facility against Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no, since most of the arguments against God have to do with refuting first causes, and Buddhism no where asserts first causes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The government could not shut down the Pentagon Papers, what makes you think Trump can shut this down?

Wayfarer said:
Different kind of case - there's a clear 'national interest' case in the former, this case mainly concerns defamation. I'm not saying that I think it would be a good thing, but I think the publishers would have to be very mindful of being sued out of existence, which does happen in some cases. We'll find out pretty quickly, I imagine.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, this is not England. This is America. This will be tossed out of court in a New York minute. Nothing Bannon, etc. said was in public. Therefore, it is protected speech under the First Amendment.

Henry Holt is part of Macmillan, which is a multibillion dollar publisher. There is no scenario in which Trump can outspend Macmillan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Occult & Arcane!
Content:
climb-up said:
As I said;
"his is heretical and I apologize, I totally respect your POV"

Malcolm wrote:
It is not heretical, it is merely ignorance of certain facts about Dzogchen that cause people to make these kinds of claims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Trump’s lawyers are seeking an injunction against the book being published. I think they’d have to have a pretty good case, wouldn’t they?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. This is America. The government could not shut down the Pentagon Papers, what makes you think Trump can shut this down?

Wayfarer said:
I noticed that on Slate, which is certainly no friend of the Trump presidency, there was a https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/is-bannon-trump-michael-wolff-reporting-reliable.html of Michael Wolff’s overall reliability, saying that he has a track record of unattributed quotations and embellishments.

Malcolm wrote:
Wolff has recordings. Lots of them. The Trump Administration, in their continued display of complete incompetence actually permitted a gossip columnist 6 months of unfettered access to the White House. We don't even need to ask,"What were they thinking," because clearly no one is thinking inside the White House at all these days, not since Obama moved out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Unknown said:
Attorney General Jeff Sessions issued a marijuana enforcement memo Thursday rescinding the Obama administration's guidance, which enabled states to legalize marijuana without federal intervention. His one-page memo makes it clear that marijuana possession and distribution is against federal law, and it will direct U.S. attorneys to approach these cases as they do all other cases when enforcing them.

The move now injects uncertainty into the growing industry in the regions of the country that have legalized the drug, CBS News' Jeff Pegues points out. Many are likely to be confused about whether it's okay to grow, buy or use marijuana in states where it's legal, since long-standing federal law prohibits it.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeff-sessions-marijuana-policy-announcement/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Occult & Arcane!
Content:


climb-up said:
I tend to agree. I believe (and this is heretical to many, and I apologize and totally respect that POV) that individuals have experienced the nature of mind outside of Buddhism specifically, and that things like contemplative prayer in the tradition of "The Cloud of Unknowing" (which is a practice based on view and not contradictory (IMO) with dzogchen; but these people have to explain their understanding and experience (if they even dare to) in a framework of the tradition they come from (just like Buddhists do).

Malcolm wrote:
???

Without the view of dependent origination and emptiness, one will not even experience, let alone understand, the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Wolff book about Trump
Content:
Queequeg said:
For giggles, schadenfreude, or alarm...

Michael Wolff: My Insane Year Inside Trump's White House

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/michael-wolff-my-insane-year-inside-trumps-white-house-1071504
The letter by Beverly Hills-based attorney Charles J. Harder demanded the publisher, Henry Holt and Co., “immediately cease and desist from any further publication, release or dissemination of the book” or excerpts and summaries of its contents. The lawyers also seek a full copy of the book as part of their investigation.

The latest twist in the showdown came after lawyers accused Bannon of breaching a confidentiality agreement and Trump denounced his former aide as a self-aggrandizing political charlatan who has “lost his mind.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-slams-bannon-when-he-was-fired-he-not-only-lost-his-job-he-lost-his-mind/2018/01/03/21fb158a-f0aa-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.46ef223afd5e


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
Grigoris said:
Unsubstantiated gossip by somebody with a chip on their shoulder.  We are really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel with this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, DW is mostly unsubstantiated gossip.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy
Content:


Fa Dao said:
Seriously? You are comparing an ideology to a large and diverse group of people. It would be more accurate and less disingenuous to compare capitalism to islam itself...both of which are ideologies.

Malcolm wrote:
Capitalism, Communism, Christianity and Islam all share one feature in common -- they all regard the non-productive destruction of surplus value as socially unethical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy
Content:


Nemo said:
It seems the most dangerous thing to life on earth currently is capitalism, not Muslims.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the most dangerous thing on the planet for the environment is oil. And it is used freely by everyone regardless of ideology, economic system, or religion. World population did not explode because of capitalism, it exploded first because of the Colombian exchange, and then the discovery and development of all kinds of technologies that use petroleum in the late nineteenth century.



http://energyskeptic.com/2013/oil-production-fueled-population-growth-and-food-production/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan vinaya
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the Tibetan Mūlasarvāstivādavinaya available anywhere in English translation?

Malcolm wrote:
Just the basic text, translated by Prebish in Buddhist Monastic Discipline; which also contains a side by side translation of the Mahasamghika Prātimokṣa Sūtra.

Coëmgenu said:
If I may bother you further, do you know if the extant Tibetan Mūlasarvāstivādavinaya is the same document as the extant Chinese Sarvāstivādavinaya?

Malcolm wrote:
No, the MSV is a more developed Vinaya, which is why it is generally considered to be later than the SV vinaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan vinaya
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the Tibetan Mūlasarvāstivādavinaya available anywhere in English translation?

Malcolm wrote:
Just the basic text, translated by Prebish in Buddhist Monastic Discipline; which also contains a side by side translation of the Mahasamghika Prātimokṣa Sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 5th, 2018 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
DGA said:
Cannabis is good for a bellyache.  Or certain kinds of pain.

Otherwise... boring. Maybe there’s something wrong with my brain?

TharpaChodron said:
I think it has a lot to do with brain chemistry.  Some people are like Willie Nelson, it just works for them.  Others find it too hallucenagetic and it triggers their schizophrenia.

I disagree that it just invokes laziness etc for all people.  I know some ingenious, industrious and very successful craftsmen who smoke regularly.  The same guys don't like alcohol at all.  Different brain chemistry, for sure.

And as for this whole thing that America has not contributed anything culturally to the world, I'd
say the total opposite.  Music, movies, media, fashion, commerce, ideology, good and bad, much of it is heavily influenced by US culture.

It's not just Cajun food, there's also cornbread, chicken fried steak, dorito loco tacos, Barbeque...

Malcolm wrote:
And Pizza, don't forget Pizza, and General Tso's Chicken!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
PeterC said:
I think most people agree that the person asking about receiving a specific teaching should just go.  I certainly do. But that’s going into a Rigpa center to receive a specific teaching with no further affiliation to the organization. Very different from advising them to become meaningfully involved with Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
We can express our opinion, but we cannot condition people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
TRC said:
This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?

Malcolm wrote:
If there were some teachings I really thought I needed being given by a lama I respected at a Rigpa center than I would go without hesitation. I would also still watch a film produced by Miramax.

Sogyal may very well be the Harvey Weinstein of Tibetan Buddhism, but not everything he has done or sponsored is entirely bad.

I know it is fashionable now in the days of the #metoo movement to boycott anything and everything someone accused of sexual misconduct may have been involved with, but I think that it is extremely short-sighted, a bandaid, not a cure.

Also, I am quite certain that Rigpa will survive Sogyal. There are literally thousands of people who don't care if or don't believe that Sogyal has actually done anything wrong. And Sogyal has colon cancer -- it is highly unlikely that he will last out another decade.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:


TRC said:
Exactly you are guessing. Where did I say I would be satisfied?

Just to refresh people's memories. I'm not the only one who has stated that Sogyal should spend time in prison. I recall Malcolm stating very categorically the same in this thread, on at least two occasions.

Malcolm wrote:
No. I stated that this was a matter for the courts. However, no criminal complaint has brought been against the man so far.

TRC said:
Well it appears you did, on p.18 and again on p.21 of this thread:

Malcolm wrote:
Observing that it may be a compassionate outcome for a person to spend some time incarcerated for a crime they have been convicted of is a far cry from praying for someone's incarceration.

Why would it be compassionate? In order to prevent them from committing other similar crimes. As I observed, however, Sogyal has yet to be brought up on criminal charges. The way it works in a Democracy is that everyone is entitled to their day in court. Jane Doe had her day and opted for payment rather than punishment, probably because her lawyer advised her to take the settlement rather than get bogged down in a lengthy court case with a less than certain outcome.

In other news:

Mary Finnigan writes:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
TRC said:
Well I'm still waiting for you to pull up the quote where I said I would be rejoicing in Sogyal's suffering if he went to prison.


dzogchungpa said:
Well, you said:
TRC said:
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison. This would be the best and most compassionate outcome for him to help ripen that huge back log of negative karma, and good for the victims of his abuse too, to see some justice done.

dzogchungpa said:
I'm guessing that means you want him to go to prison and would feel satisfaction if he does. I'm also guessing you understand that he would be suffering there, right?

TRC said:
Exactly you are guessing. Where did I say I would be satisfied?

Just to refresh people's memories. I'm not the only one who has stated that Sogyal should spend time in prison. I recall Malcolm stating very categorically the same in this thread, on at least two occasions.

Malcolm wrote:
No. I stated that this was a matter for the courts. However, no criminal complaint has brought been against the man so far.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
TRC said:
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour, but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.

Johnny Dangerous said:
You are just using a vague idea of justice to rationalize a desire that someone be harmed. You should apply antidotes, or whatevet your approach dictates, instead of pretending a desire for vengeance is somehow motivated by virtue. The punitive end of the criminal justice system in most countries has little to do with ' facing up to criminal  behavior', whatever it's other qualities or deficiencies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: An Account of the Tiāntāi Synthesis
Content:
Queequeg said:
Good luck finding the empty nature of dharmas, though.

Malcolm wrote:
When you don't find it, you have found it.

Queequeg said:
I've been searching for years... I must be getting close.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are still searching, you haven't found it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: An Account of the Tiāntāi Synthesis
Content:
Queequeg said:
Good luck finding the empty nature of dharmas, though.

Malcolm wrote:
When you don't find it, you have found it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:


PuerAzaelis said:
Same here. My last experience was a truly out of control flashback. The Fear. For hours and hours on end. No desire to repeat.

To be honest it was never my favorite. Hashish = assassin.


dzogchungpa said:
When I was 19 I was in Benares and I tried this stuff called bhang. My companions and I were completely incapacitated for many, many hours. All that was left of my mind was an experience of white light. Crazy stuff. We didn't even take that much of it, the guys in the shop were doing like two or three times as much.

Grigoris said:
Eating dope is so much more efficient than smoking.  It takes longer but the effect is generally much more intense.


Malcolm wrote:
And debilitating.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
TRC said:
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour...

Malcolm wrote:
It all depends on whether you have a one-lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view. If someone has faith in karma, the vipāka of sexual misconduct and so on is very clearly delineated. Wishing for someone to suffer, for any reason, is antithetical to Buddhist ethics in general, and Mahāyāna ethics specifically, since it involves abandoning one's compassion for that sentient being. One cannot in the same breath say, "I want to X to suffer in prison for their crimes" and say also, "I have compassion for X." No truly compassionate Buddhist person ever wants any sentient being to suffer for any reason.

TRC said:
but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, no one ever said pṛthagjana Mahāyāna practitioners were perfect.  Anyway, you will have to be satisfied with the endless humiliation of Sogyal in the press and on boards such as these since it is highly unlikely he will be successfully brought up on charges. Being satisfied with the humiliation of a sentient being is also not very Buddhist.

We can address the issues of patriarchy and sexual abuse in Buddhist organizations without indulging in afflictive behavior ourselves, or at least we can recognize the afflictions that the perceived misdeeds of others raise within ourselves.

And if you accept rebirth, do you really believe that in some past life you have not done things far more awful to women than the crimes you impute onto  Sogyal? I am pretty sure we have all been perps and victims, over and over again...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:



Simon E. said:
But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.

Josef said:
No, they dont.
His behavior, and his apologists behavior removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners.

TRC said:
Thank you Josef. That was exactly the point.

Malcolm wrote:
While I generally agree with Josef, on this point, I cannot agree. Papayin Māra's attempt to trick the Buddha by taking the bodhisattva vow to gain access to the Buddha's presence resulted in Papayin Māra's prediction to complete Buddhahood (Śūraṅgamasamādhi Sūtra), so it is impossible that Sogyal has been separated from the Mahāyāna gotra. You, TRC, are underestimating the tremendous merit of the bodhisattva aspiration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
I dont know, guys. I think we can find ANY citation to support ANY view.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:


DGA said:
Native Oregonian here.  I kind of like Walla Walla pinot and cabernet better than our stuff.


Malcolm wrote:
That's because Washington wine regions are drier and hotter, and make a more full bodied wine. Willamette growers emulate the more austere style of Burgundy, buy design. The French just don't like American creativity with wine making. But they do not know what they are missing. Also their meat sucks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:



DGA said:
I like Gewürztraminers because they are orange and fizzy.

Malcolm wrote:
Best paired with a nice spicy curry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Minobu said:
wine wine wine

Malcolm wrote:
wine wine wine

Queequeg said:
They made a movie about this called Sideways.

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wouldn't be happy about how fruit forward the Santa Maria Pinots are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
I have a bit of a weird affection for the sheer bizarre eccentricity of German white wines.

Malcolm wrote:
Rieslings are the favored wines of sommeliers around the world. Why? They are light and refreshing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy
Content:
Harimoo said:
In Kalacakra tantra, mleccas refers to muslims.

DGA said:
Yes. What is not clear to me is if the term mleccha refers to Muslims only, or also to others.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, it refers to anyone speaking an unclear (to subcontinental Indians) language. In the context of the Kālacakra, muslims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:


Ricky said:
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.

Ricky said:
True but its great to have some level of morals and decency in life.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it is better to choose bodhisattva ethics over pratimokṣa ethics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:


Ricky said:
All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing.

Malcolm wrote:
It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.

Ricky said:
If one is a Shin Buddhist then the 5 basic precepts are good enough.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Shin Buddhist you don't even follow those.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:


Ricky said:
All I'm saying is it doesn't break the precept, not whether it's a good or bad thing.

Malcolm wrote:
It breaks the bodhisattva precepts, which, if one is a lay Mahāyāna practitioner, are more important than the five lay pratimokśa precepts. The sūtra I cited also states that much of what is permissible for a Hinayāna practitioner is forbidden to a Mahāyāna practitioner, and vice versa. The five pratimokśa precepts are not definitive for Mahāyānis, but the bodhisattva precepts are definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:



Minobu said:
California wine is good in some cases but you cannot compare it to French or Italian ..

Malcolm wrote:
I have drunk wine in Italy, France, Spain, Napa, and Oregon. Californian and Oregonian wine is just as good and often better than wine from Europe.

You need to read about the http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Judgment-of-Paris/George-M-Taber/9780743297325:
The Paris Tasting of 1976 will forever be remembered as the landmark event that transformed the wine industry. At this legendary contest—a blind tasting—a panel of top French wine experts shocked the industry by choosing unknown California wines over France’s best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So now I assume you are going to smoke weed, take drugs, drink booze, and eat meat again? Amazing the permissions we can find in a little citation!

Grigoris said:
Quite amazing the conclusions that people jump to based on so little information.  That is not what it is advising, and you know it!

Malcolm wrote:
Greg, in all seriousness, the Kun byed rgyal po citation is talking about the nature of the mind. The sūtra quote I posted was about how someone who holds bodhisattva vows should conduct themselves. I assume you hold three vows, because you are Vajrayāna practitioner. This means that observing bodhisattva vows are important to you, since I know that they are important to you. The citation is not saying, "don't visit prostitutes because they are bad people." The citation means, "Do not visit prostitutes for sex." We already agree on this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

Pero said:
Uh oh.

Grigoris said:
From my signature:  "Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


Malcolm wrote:
So now I assume you are going to smoke weed, take drugs, drink booze, and eat meat again? Amazing the permissions we can find in a little citation!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 4th, 2018 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Grigoris said:
Well, for me it has nothing to do with beefs, being "down" with people (I have overdosed on "down" here on Lesbso) and ecolodging, it has to do with an interest in pre-Columbian meso-American culture.  I am a bit of an "ancient rubble" junky.


Malcolm wrote:
Strictly speaking, you will find some of the best pre-Colombian "rubble" in New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, etc. Then, in Missouri and Illinois there are the mound builders. The largest city north of Mexico Pre-Colombian America was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia near Cahokia, Illinois.

Mexico is of course amazing in this respect, and if you have a chance to get the Archaeology Museum in Mexico City, go by all means. Then there is Mayan Mexico, Chiapas and the Yucatan, which I have not been to, and Oaxaca on the Pacific Coast, the homeland of Mezcal. Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala are presently really too dangerous for idle tourism, but Costa Rica and Belize are pretty safe. We have not even gotten to Peru, Chile, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:
TRC said:
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
TaTa said:
What are the benefits of paying a membership? Is there like an data bank of past webcast or the replays are just the last ones?

heart said:
You support the community, that is the real benefit.

/magnus


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:


The Cicada said:
It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=22572#p323571 at Dhammawheel.

Malcolm wrote:
Dhammanando's opinion is not definitive.

It also does not apply to bodhisattvas, unlike the Mahāyāna sūtra passage I quoted above. Those who consider themselves Mahāyāna practitioners should by all means avoid visiting prostitutes for sexual services.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Queequeg said:
Back to pot... the first time I went into a shop in Washington State where its been fully decriminalized for a few years, it took me a second to not feel like I needed to be looking over my shoulder, and then talking with a guy about different kinds of weed and weed derived products as though I was at Best Buy talking about TVs... very strange experience...

Malcolm wrote:
Before you all get too giddy on your sour diesel/pineapple express hybrids:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/16/jeff-sessions-marijuana-216109


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Queequeg said:
Back to pot... the first time I went into a shop in Washington State where its been fully decriminalized for a few years, it took me a second to not feel like I needed to be looking over my shoulder, and then talking with a guy about different kinds of weed and weed derived products as though I was at Best Buy talking about TVs... very strange experience...

Also, the pot these days... WHOA. This aint the schwag we smoked behind the bleachers in high school... no seeds popping in your face, and you can actually choose the kind of high...


dzogchungpa said:
We've come  a long way, baby. Check out this http://www.mybpg.com/shop.

Grigoris said:
I have hazy recollections of Amsterdam in 1990.  The novelty wears off quite fast.

Malcolm wrote:
You can still remember 1990? Impressed!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
best food and wine in the world.

Queequeg said:
Oh, I don't know about that. There are a lot of places with great food and wine. In terms of food, Tokyo might be the greatest place at this time in history - beyond just Japanese food.

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing beats Napa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When was the last time you were in Cali?

Grigoris said:
???

Just reporting on a news item I read.

Actually I have no desire to visit California, or the US.  None at all.  Granted there would be some amazing nature to see there, but...

Ricky said:
Visit Canada instead. It's a cleaner and more civilized version of the US.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps, but it is also boring, with the exception of British Columbia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your loss. The US is a great place to live and practice Dharma.

Grigoris said:
Not all places in the US are great to live in, or practice Dharma.  Like not all places in Europe are great to live in or practice Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends. Granted cities are not good places to practice Dharma in general, but the US is comparatively unpopulated compared to the rest of the world. And California, while too expensive, is great -- best food and wine in the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
Grigoris said:
None at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Your loss. The US is a great place to live and practice Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Grigoris said:
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers.  The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.

Malcolm wrote:
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.

Grigoris said:
I agree fully, especially after witnessing the effects that sex work has on the workers psyche.  It's not pretty.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it has nothing to do with phobias, as one person inaccurately described it, but rather caring for other human beings who are in exploited positions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Requesting bodhisattvas for help
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Okay.. let’s say today I am going to buy 5 crabs from the stall... but I wait and pray for bodhisattvas to manifest in forms to save them. But what if they didn’t manifest and the crabs survival depended if I bought them.

Malcolm wrote:
Why they should they appear when there is already a bodhisattva on the scene?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Grigoris said:
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers.  The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.

Malcolm wrote:
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 11:35 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Ricky said:
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?

Malcolm wrote:
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.

Ricky said:
I read something once that a bodhisattva can have sex with a hooker if it benefits her in some way. Maybe you know the sutra for this.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a very slippery and  steep slope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 11:20 AM
Title: Re: Weed is now legal in California
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I just realized this. MIght have to stop by http://www.mybpg.com/blog/jan1/, just out of curiosity, of course.

Grigoris said:
I wouldn't do that if I were you, unless you are a registered resident of California, coz it is still a criminal offence for non-residents caught in California with ganja.

Malcolm wrote:
When was the last time you were in Cali?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 11:15 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Ricky said:
Why do the rules for this change in Mahayana?

Malcolm wrote:
Because we are bodhisattvas, more concerned with the welfare of others than our own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:



The Cicada said:
That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.

Malcolm wrote:
Specific source please.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:



Pero said:
This was back on E-Sangha.


Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.

Pero said:
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.


Malcolm wrote:
Whoever presented this opinion presented it from Berzin's website:

Consider, for example, the discussion about having sex with a prostitute. In both the Indian and the Tibetan texts, having sex with a prostitute is perfectly okay, even for a married man, so long as the man pays for the prostitute.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/path-to-enlightenment/karma-rebirth/buddhist-sexual-ethics-main-issues#prostitution

This what you said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself.
But we can see from the passage that I cited above it is not the case that visiting prostitutes was considered acceptable conduct for a householder bodhisattva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Pero said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first.


Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.

Pero said:
This was back on E-Sangha.


Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Pero said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself. Ironically I think it was Malcolm who mentioned this first.


Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
The Cicada said:
It's also important to note that some convert Buddhists have hangups about what is permitted by the Buddha, such as the fact that frequenting prostitutes, where legal, is perfectly fine so long as one limits oneself to 5 a day. But these are just puritanical Christian hangups that have have no place in Buddhism because the practice is perfectly fine so long as it is legal, as it is in Last Vegas here in the States.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Ricky said:
Conservative family values  = healthy and strong society.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, which is why Christian adolescents have much higher rates of STD's than the gen pop.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:
Vasana said:
As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.

Aryjna said:
Is there a specific book or text that you would recommend for instructions on mindfulness?

Malcolm wrote:
I would just follow Rinpoche's instruction -- first you try to be mindful for five minutes, when you are breathing, be mindful you are breathing, etc. Then increase to ten minutes, than an hour, than three, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
liuzg150181 said:
After hearing the Sakya horror story from ChNNR, generation and completion stage seems less enticing now.
Btw, I only receive transmission during the Three anniversary,and miss this time's Ati Guru Yoga transmission,am I still allowed to practise Ati Guru Yoga?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:
Vasana said:
As far as I heard, he gave these examples to illustrate that we generally make mistakes when we're not present (e.g- copying a text while distracted, cutting your finger when chopping vegetables, having a road accident) and that when we are familiar with the meaning of prescence it is like a person who is well familiar with driving a car. In the beginning you have to use a lot of effort to mantain attention while driving but after some time, familiarity & integration, you can drive while having a complicated conversation with someone and yet not be distracted from what you're doing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and he offers instructions in how to train in "presence" which differ not in the slightest from how one trains in mindfulness. His use of the term "presence" indicates his initial translation of dran pa into Italian.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:
Jyoti said:
Malcolm, thanks for the input. Its nice to read your words again after five years of my absence from this board.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, actually, when Rinpoche discusses presence and awareness, he is referencing the terms dran pa (smṛti) and shes bzhin (samprajāna).

His five guidelines for practitioners are always:

1) Ati Guru Yoga.
2) Use presence and awareness.
3) Work with circumstances.
4) Do your best.
5) Relax.

Happy New Year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 2nd, 2018 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Content:



weitsicht said:
If you have the opportunity to participate in a teaching of a Rinpoche who follows Rigpa's invitation, hence you pay Rigpa for the tuition and play part in Rigpa's way of reciting Refuge and Dedication (inclusion Sogyal's chants from tape and a long life prayer for him) and you would have no other chance to have this teaching or see this Rinpoche otherwise, would you go or would you abstain?


Malcolm wrote:
If the teacher or teaching were important to me, I would go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Ignorant_Fool said:
Noob question - for the lungs that Rinpoche gave earlier, are we required to receive empowerment to practice (say Green Tara or Marici) anuyoga style? Is it ok to just do the root mantra?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen transmission eliminates any need to have further empowerments for the lungs you have received.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:



WontonCarter said:
How I've done it so far is to not only read the works of many teachers of many traditions, but also work a lot with admirable friends, compare understandings, read the posts here and at DhammaWheel, as well as other forums, and listen to Dharma talks and lectures from highly-reputable teachers of both Mahayana and Theravada. I've also been in contact/have friendships with monks and nuns, exchanged letters, had conversations, etc. I spend a lot of time studying the Pali Canon and Mahayana sutras as well, and reading commentaries. Most importantly, I practice in line with these teachings and scriptures.

Malcolm wrote:
This is called training in the three wisdoms: hearing, reflection, and cultivation.

pael said:
How about reciting sutras without lung? Any merit?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Sūtras have lungs, but do not require them for recitation and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: CHNN on presence
Content:


Jyoti said:
Instant presence is another alternative for the 'state of rigpa', 'rigpa' is just knowledge and 'presence' is not just 'rigpa', it is the 'state of rigpa'. Many westerners just use rigpa to refer to the state of presence, this is an error.

Jyoti

Malcolm wrote:
Presence is Rinpoche's translation of dran pa, mindfulness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 1:11 PM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Ricky said:
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept.

Malcolm wrote:
False.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 6:24 AM
Title: Re: Occult & Arcane!
Content:
RengeReciter said:
When Buddhism came to Tibet, it merged with the indigenous shamanic system, Bon, and took on characteristics and practices from that tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
This is basically nonsense. Not your fault for repeating it, but it is bullshit. This is like calling Japanese Buddhism shamanic because many customs from pre-buddhist Japanese religion were preserved by Japanese Buddhists, such as worshipping the Kami and so on.

The Carmen Blacker book mentioned by Jikan has an excellent account of shamanic currents in Nichiren temples.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Modern 'family values' did not exist in the Buddha's time, because people did not conceive of the nuclear family the way we do, fairly obviously. Neither did the silly 'sex postivity' one currently finds on the other end of the spectrum.

Stefos said:
One can understand that, of course, "modern family values" which are joke by the way due to a LOT of issues with people and their images of the perfect man, woman, child, family, etc.

I asked for Textual sources sir.

Can you provide any for your particular stance please?

Thank you,
Stefos

Johnny Dangerous said:
I didn't mention a particular stance, other than that the Buddha (obviously) had little to say about modern sexual politics or ideas. I don't  really feel like pulling anything up from access to insight because I'm on a mobile device.

Obviously though, if you are looking for Pali sources it is a mostly very dim view of sensual pursuits period, promiscuity would certainly fall under that, but the approach is so different from modern moralizing about it that there is no comparison really. That, and the fact advice on  sex for celibate renunciation is obviously it's own deal.

The Buddha In Pali sources takes a negative view of household life period, that ain't no 'family' values.

Mahayana sources are all over the map...so exactly what kind of 'source' are you looking for?

Shore up your own ability to steer the conversation and be specific before complaining about not having sources etc.

Malcolm wrote:
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Happy new year !
Content:
Lucas Oliveira said:
Happy New Year Dharma Wheel !!!





Malcolm wrote:
Happy Fake Buddha Quotes!!!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:
pemachophel said:
one of my teachers just told me the effects of the obstacle year can sometimes be felt six months in advance if it's going to be a really bad year.

also, there are practices for turning back these negative conditions, at least in part.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, for men the year before is also an obstacle year, for women, the year after.

kirtu said:
So there's actually at least a third obstacle year.  Does the before -after male/female rule also apply to the 7nth year?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In reality, the Buddha said almost nothing about family life. He said absolutely nothing about monogamy, promiscuity, and so on. Why? These things belong to worldly social customs and really have nothing do with Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:
pemachophel said:
one of my teachers just told me the effects of the obstacle year can sometimes be felt six months in advance if it's going to be a really bad year.

also, there are practices for turning back these negative conditions, at least in part.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, for men the year before is also an obstacle year, for women, the year after.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:



kirtu said:
So then, if one were born late in the centipede year, would the entire centipede year be the obstacle year or is it the year from ones birthday?  Since people usually didn't know their birthday, is the year following the season that one was born in the obstacle year or is it considered to  be the astrological year?

Thanks!

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
It does not matter when in the centipede year you were born, if you were born the day before the centipede year becomes the millipede year, you are still a centipede and it is still your obstacle year from new years onward.

kirtu said:
Well what if nothing particullarly challenging happens in the centipede year?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
That is just fine. Not everyone has the same cycle of elements, mewas, parkha and so on. And, karma trumps astrology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:



kirtu said:
So then, if one were born late in the centipede year, would the entire centipede year be the obstacle year or is it the year from ones birthday?  Since people usually didn't know their birthday, is the year following the season that one was born in the obstacle year or is it considered to  be the astrological year?

Thanks!

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
It does not matter when in the centipede year you were born, if you were born the day before the centipede year becomes the millipede year, you are still a centipede and it is still your obstacle year from new years onward.

Grigoris said:
So the year after your birth year is an obstacle year?


Malcolm wrote:
No, if you were born in a dog year, the dog year is your obstacle year. In Tibetan astrology, you are 1 year old the day you are born. Let's say you were born on the last day of this year, the fire bird year. On the first day of the following year, the earth dog year, you would be 2. Your thirteenth year would be the next bird year, that would be your obstacle year. Your 7-off side year would be the next rabbit year, which is the enemy of bird, another obstacle year. There are generally two obstacle years per 12 year cycle, your rang lo, or the animal year of your birth and the seventh year from that birth year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:
philji said:
When do obstacle years occur? Is it every 12 th year..i.e. if i am year of the dog sign they will arise in that year..or is it when the 12/24/36 th year etc ends and i enter 13/25/37 th year etc.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a dog, then the next year is an obstacle year.

kirtu said:
So then, if one were born late in the centipede year, would the entire centipede year be the obstacle year or is it the year from ones birthday?  Since people usually didn't know their birthday, is the year following the season that one was born in the obstacle year or is it considered to  be the astrological year?

Thanks!

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
It does not matter when in the centipede year you were born, if you were born the day before the centipede year becomes the millipede year, you are still a centipede and it is still your obstacle year from new years onward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Stefos said:
The Lord Buddha's wives died Malcolm........He was running a concurrent "wife brothel."

Malcolm wrote:
Really, you have a sūtra citation for this?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point of this exercise of course is to dispel the notion that the Buddha advocated the "traditional family" based on Western monogamous values.

The Cicada said:
Okay then, Mahanatma, how should we then live?

Malcolm wrote:
However you like, as long as it does not harm others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: Occult & Arcane!
Content:
RengeReciter said:
This is similar to the shamanic elements that you see in Tibetan Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
What shamanic elements? You mean like the "Shamanic" elements in Nichiren Buddhism?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Obstacle years
Content:
philji said:
When do obstacle years occur? Is it every 12 th year..i.e. if i am year of the dog sign they will arise in that year..or is it when the 12/24/36 th year etc ends and i enter 13/25/37 th year etc.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a dog, then the next year is an obstacle year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Buddha for sure supported traditional marriage. For one he himself only took one wife...

Malcolm wrote:
No, the Buddha had at least two wives, and according to some sources, three; as well as many mistresses. The Lalitavistara reports he had a wife named Gopa, who was his head wife:

Then indeed, in order to conform to worldly conventions, the Bodhisattva dwelt among 84,000 women and showed himself to partake of the amorous games with pleasure. Among the 84,000 women, the Śākya girl Gopā was consecrated as the foremost wife.

"Traditional" marriage exists in many forms: polygamy, polyandry, monogamy, and everything in between.

pael said:
It is often said to be Yasodhara. Who was third wife? Gopa was not Rahula's mom, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Gopa was the principle wife, Yaśodharā was the mother of Rahula, and Mrigajā was the third wife. There are other sūtras that mention six wives.

The point of this exercise of course is to dispel the notion that the Buddha advocated the "traditional family" based on Western monogamous values.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 1st, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just to add a bit more here, the Abhiniṣkramaṇa-sūtra states that the Buddha had three main wives, Gopa, Yaśodharā, and Mrigajā, as well as 60,000 other wives, that is to say, 20,000 wives as the retinue for the three main wives. Buddha's palace was literally crawling with wives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Buddha for sure supported traditional marriage. For one he himself only took one wife...

Malcolm wrote:
No, the Buddha had at least two wives, and according to some sources, three; as well as many mistresses. The Lalitavistara reports he had a wife named Gopa, who was his head wife:

Then indeed, in order to conform to worldly conventions, the Bodhisattva dwelt among 84,000 women and showed himself to partake of the amorous games with pleasure. Among the 84,000 women, the Śākya girl Gopā was consecrated as the foremost wife.

"Traditional" marriage exists in many forms: polygamy, polyandry, monogamy, and everything in between.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: 'The observer is the observed' ---critique
Content:



Supramundane said:
The point of the first jhana is, i think, to gain awareness. But thought cannot be stopped. A good athlete can slow his pulse; he can't stop it.


Malcolm wrote:
No, the point of the first dhyana is to attain one-pointedness on an object of concentration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy
Content:
cck123 said:
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris

Malcolm wrote:
Kālacakra treats all Abrahamic religions as the same, that is, pernicious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
With the exception of the prohibition against intoxication, the wording of the first four precepts are identical for laypeople and ordained.

Grigoris said:
I asked if the wording refers specifically to humans.  For example the wording in the Abrahamaic Religions is:  Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it is clearly discussed in the commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified
Content:
Grigoris said:
Does the exact wording of the precept refer to humans specifically?

Malcolm wrote:
With the exception of the prohibition against intoxication, the wording of the first four precepts are identical for laypeople and ordained. Since there is a qualifying proviso for novices and bhikṣus that clarifies that killing animals is a far lesser offense, and because in the commentaries on Vinaya "abandon taking life" refers specifically to human beings, we can understand that the first precept refers to killing humans.

As I wrote above, the killing of animals is covered under the general commitment to ahimsa we take on as part of going for refuge to the Dharma.

So, if you kill an animal, you may not have broken the first precept, but you have breached your commitment of ahimsa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified
Content:


Grigoris said:
I didn't say anything abut the Buddha's standards, I said: "Anyway, for me, not being a monastic and all, the Vinaya is not my sole source of moral/ethical standards."

Malcolm wrote:
I thought this was Dharmawheel, not Grigoriswheel.



Grigoris said:
Needlessly harming plants.  Scratching about in the dirt is another one on the list.  So is going to see theater and music.  Again though, I am not a monastic thus:  "So what?"

Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not what you personally accept and reject. The issue is how the first precept is to be understood for lay people. While it is commonly understood to include animals, it doesn't. This does not make killing animals acceptable.

The Buddha knew that lay people could not observe the precept against taking life if it included animals -- India was not a vegetarian country at the time (actually, it still isn't).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: The siddhi of winning wars
Content:


climb-up said:
Here's one knowledgable guy who (seems to, I believe) agree, at least in regards to the literalness:

Malcolm wrote:
Not with respect to Kālacakra, however —— the text itself indicates that the Shambhala war, which is mostly discussed in chapter 5, the so-called Wisdom chapter, is symbolic. In the inner chapter it also states very clearly that the war visited upon the mlecchas will be a vast illusion where it seems that there is killing and so on, but in reality it is all an illusion conjured to intimidate the mlecchas in Baghdad, and no one is actually harmed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 31st, 2017 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified
Content:
Grigoris said:
No.

Ricky said:
Right, keep contradicting yourself and also wrong about the first percept as Malcolm has proven. Thanks Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
Killing animals may not be truly covered in the first precept, but the commitment of ahimsa, non-harming, is included in the commitment of refuge in the Dharma. It is not a precept, per say, but by going refuge in the Dharma, you are committing yourself to not harming living things.


