﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yup, you're a Marxist.

Sherab Dorje said:
Sometimes...  And you seem to be blissfully unaware of the tensions that exist in society as a consequence of class.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, I just think they are not as important as the question of the environment.


Sherab Dorje said:
Of course there are desperate attempts to sublimate the tensions by promising proletarians the apparent opportunity to become members of the bourgeoisie, but as the stats (provided by boda) show:  they ain't goin' nowhere!

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing can be promised to anyone other than a virtually lifeless, planetary desert if humanity does not abandon extractive economic practices. Since capitalism and its shadow, socialism, are both predicated on extractive economics, both are failures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a recognition people with different value systems can arrive at the same conclusion and work together, the use the example of Buddhists and Christians who both oppose capital punishment.

This is why it is crucial to read Naess if one hopes to understand the core principles that underlie the deep ecological approach.

Sherab Dorje said:
Proletariat and Bourgeoisie together, fighting for the environment.  Fat chance.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, you're a Marxist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
again you decide what i am doing.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is really the other way around.

Minobu said:
well we could straighten that out by explaining to me why use edenic and the big bang thing the way you did.

if you really look at what i wrote i looked to you as some sort of teacher here....then it was like ignore totally what i write and insult the words with words to make it all look lame. i'm strictly talking here about the use of edenic and big bang.

also you ignore the main content of everything i write and just do some sort of troll thing to get reaction.

lol..it's actually amusing ...i lol about it all the time...your no light wieght in your thing.

d


(waits for a one liner from malcolm ignoring the crux of what i ask)lol

Malcolm wrote:
One) I did not troll your post. So stop saying that I did.
Two) I responded to what I thought were the essential points. We were discussing primordial buddhas. You kept insisting there was some pure state before samasara. I rejected this idea.
Three) The term edenic means "A state of purity before a fall."
Four) Quantum physics asserts that time and space are continua that can be mathematically described. This is fine as far as things go, but it really does not have anything to do with Buddhist concepts of space and time. Thus, your example of time as a circle is pretty irrelevant here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
again you decide what i am doing.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is really the other way around.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
why are you going there?

Malcolm wrote:
You began to talk about the theory of time in quantum physics.

Minobu said:
At the end of my day my grappling with concepts of Primordial Buddhas, and keeping an open mind to something actually defining whether there was one outside of the concept of Dharmakaya only school of thought or not is not going to alter my dedication to mine and other's liberation.

I've spent my entire life absorbing different schools of thought, jumping into various Buddhist sects, so on and on and on.

I see Nichiren Shonin's Dharma as my best way of integrating myself with the Buddha's Dharma to help myself and other sentients.

So.....Am i going to let trolling an online forum really upset me ... i really thought highly of you Malcolm but this....

I have this serious discussion and Malcolm decides to ignore what i say and confer that is about some edenic view.That was an insult for I'm not on some Christian fundamentalist site trying to talk of eden, Im discussing something akin to a Samadhi state and the like.

Something again I would like to talk about seriously. I chose you Malcolm to help me.

Then just because i use a little quantum physics and Stephen Hawking theory it becomes some big bang discussion. For me it's a troll and i truly hope you enjoyed the stage Malcolm , you know what you did and i know so seriously if it brings you some joy that indeed at the end of the day gives me pleasure.


I don't think me saying the verdict is out on such a subject will hinder me, but I do know trying to annoy others is not healthy.

Malcolm wrote:
I can see you are quite upset about insults which do not exist. I said nothing for which I deserve to be addressed as a troll. I answered you directly and honestly, and you did not like my reply. I am content to let it rest there. But now you are insisting on making this personal, and that is not called for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Passion Bodhi
Content:
Kilaya. said:
Okay, so can we say that "passion bodhi" is passion energy and "rainbow-like mental body" is the illusory body?

ratna said:
སྤྱིར་ཁམས་གསུམ་འཁོར་བའི་སེམས་ཅན་ལ། །འདོད་པའི་བྱང་ཆུབ་སྣ་ཚོགས་ཡོད།

I think it just means In general, there are various assertions regarding Bodhi for the beings in the three realms of Samsara.

R

Malcolm wrote:
In general, there are various awakenings asserted for the beings in the three realms of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This really explains everything perfectly:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is quite practical since it accommodates other positive approaches to the environment and ecology.

Sherab Dorje said:
This is a political position known as populism.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a recognition people with different value systems can arrive at the same conclusion and work together, the use the example of Buddhists and Christians who both oppose capital punishment.

This is why it is crucial to read Naess if one hopes to understand the core principles that underlie the deep ecological approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What does zhi mean in Sanskrit?

Astus said:
It can be a translation of various words. According to the Buddhist Chinese-Sanksrit Great Dictionary (佛教漢梵大辭典 ):

√jñā, -jña, jñāna, vi-√jñā, pra-√jñā, √vid, -vid, ava-√budh; ajyate, adhigata, adhi-√gam, adhigamana, anugata, anugama, anujñāpita, anu-pra-√viś, anupraviṣṭa, anu-√budh, anubodha, anumāna, anusāritva, anusmaraṇatā, antara-jña, abhi-√gam, -abhijña, abhi-√jñā, abhisaṃbodhanatā, abhisaṃbodhi, ava-√gam, avagama, ava-√gāh, avatāra, avatīrṇa, ava-√tṝ, avadhāraka, avabudhyanatā, avabodha, avabodhana, avê(√i), avêkṣ(√īkṣ), avetya, ā-√jñā, ājñā, ājñākhya, ājñāta, ājñātāva, ājñāna, ājñêndriya, ājñeya, āsada, ucyate, udaya, upalakṣaṇa, upalakṣyate, upalabdhi, eṣṭavya, kovida, √kṣam, gatiṃ-gata, √gam, gamyate, gāmin, √gāh, √grah, grahaṇa, cetana, jānaka, jñāta, jñāpita, jñeya, dṛśyate, dṛṣṭvā, draṣṭavya, nidhyapti, nidhyāpta, niścaya, parāyaṇa, parikuśala, pari-cchid(√chid), pari-√ñā, parijñā, parijñāta, parijñāna, parijñānatā, parijñāyate, prajāna, prajānat*, prajñā, prajñāna, pratijñāyate, prati-√budh, pratibhāvayati, prativijñapti, prati-vi-√jñā, prativijñāna, pratividdha, prativibhāvayati, prativedha, prati-√vyadh, pratisaṃvidita, pratisaṃvedana, pratī(√i), praty-anu-√bhū, pratyabhijñā, pratyabhijñāna, pra-vi-√ci, buddhi, budhyanatā, budhyanā, bodha, bhajana, mata, √man, manas, lakṣyate, labdha, va-√gāh, vicārayati, vi-√ci, vijñapti, vijñā, vijñāta, vijñāpana, vijñāyate, vidita, vidhi-jña, vibuddhana, vibhāvayati, vibhāvita, vibhāvyate, vettṛ, veda, veditavya, vedin, saṃ-lakṣaya (den.), saṃ-√jñā, sam-anu-√dṛś, sam-anu-√paś, sam-anv-ā-√hṛ, sam-√āp, samudāgama, saṃ-√jñā, saṃ-pra-√dṛś, suniścita, smṛti.

Malcolm wrote:
What is the most common Sanskrit term it represents?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The means of production are capitalist, and only exist because they were created by capitalists. There was never any industrial means of production that was not created by capitalism. Socialism merely wishes to replace the ownership of those means.

Sherab Dorje said:
A machine is a machine, it is neither capitalist or socialist.  It is a bunch of nuts and bolts.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, the nature of machinery is reflected of the kind of economy that produces it.




Sherab Dorje said:
The problem is the means themselves.
Hmmmmmm...  And what if the means were used to produce ecologically sound products?

Malcolm wrote:
They can't be so used. That is point that everyone on both the left and the right fails to understand.


Sherab Dorje said:
That is why ecology will fail as a mass movement, because it does not directly appeal to the masses (who happen to be proletariat,or lumpen proletariat and or "coloured").  That is why it is a white middle class phenomenon.

Malcolm wrote:
Ecology will fail as a mass movement providing that people refuse to understand the peril that faces us collectively as biosphere.

One can be sure that Alt-right people are profligately ignorant of it, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:


Astus said:
There is no separate awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
This the basic problem with translated the term "rigpa" as "awareness."

It simply does not work.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Malcolm, do you think it would be better then to render it as "knowing" or "knowledge"? The latter word too carries a lot of baggage...

Malcolm wrote:
In many cases yes. For example, in the commentary on one of the seventeen tantras, rig pa, vidyā, is defined in the following way:
Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowledge of the link of consciousness, sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 5) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all is this [knowledge] that is without ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Awareness" is a term which is next to useless in a Buddhist context.

Astus said:
What do you suggest? https://books.google.com/books?id=bUgg9aWaAH8C translated zhi 知 as "knowing".

Malcolm wrote:
What does zhi mean in Sanskrit?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Socialism is capitalism since it does not reject the capitalist mode of production.

Sherab Dorje said:
It is an industrial mode of production, not a capitalist mode.

The means of production are the same, the aims are slightly different.

Malcolm wrote:
The means of production are capitalist, and only exist because they were created by capitalists. There was never any industrial means of production that was not created by capitalism. Socialism merely wishes to replace the ownership of those means.

The problem is the means themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Socialism is capitalism.

Sherab Dorje said:
Sorry, but I think this is mistaken.  It is like saying a zebra is a horse because they both have four legs, a tail and go "neigh".

It is this kind of thinking that has stunted US domestic policy and left movements since the McCarthy era.

Malcolm wrote:
Socialism is capitalism since it does not reject the capitalist mode of production.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This the basic problem with translated the term "rigpa" as "awareness."
It simply does not work.

Astus said:
Doesn't have to be "rigpa". Buddha-nature has been identified as awareness (zhi 知) by some Chan teachers as well. Interestingly, zhi 知 means both "to know" and "to be aware".

Malcolm wrote:
"Awareness" is a term which is next to useless in a Buddhist context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2016 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
why are you going there?

Malcolm wrote:
You began to talk about the theory of time in quantum physics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
because then you exclude the effects of non-capitalist industrialisation.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing. The world economy is and has been capitalist for three hundred years. Socialism is capitalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
If you read what I have written i am saying samsara is of itself.
the key ingredient here is desire ,hence dependent origination. I'm not saying samsara is not beginningless just explaining to the modern public why this observation takes place.

Malcolm wrote:
The key ingredients of samsara are the afflictions. But those arise from ignorance.
Samsara has an end, that end is called nirvana.
ahh even you agree that the goal is to end Nirvana ..what will be left then eh![/quote]

I did not say the goal was to end nirvana. I said, in contrast to your statement that samsara has no end that indeed samsara has an end. It ends (ends for you) when nirvana begins. Of course, the corollary is that nirvana has no end, but it does have a beginning.
possibly something that was before the introduction of desire into the picture.
There was no state prior to the arising of samsara because samsara is beginningless. There is no "big bang" for samsara. The idea of a first big bang is not consistent with dependent origination, so it is either false or Buddha's teaching of dependent origination is false. The idea that the material universe contracts and expands without beginning however is perfectly consistent with dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:


Astus said:
There is no separate awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
This the basic problem with translated the term "rigpa" as "awareness."

It simply does not work.

Monlam Tharchin said:
I've always wondered what "rigpa" means to an average Tibetan person. Is it an everyday word with problematic associations like "awareness" in English, or is it a more narrow, specialized term?

Malcolm wrote:
It is an everyday word. It is the verb "to know," or the noun, knowledge. Rig pa po, for example, simply means "the knower."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
conebeckham said:
According to my dictionary, "primordial" can mean "existing at the beginning of time," but it can also mean "fundamental."

Time is illusory, just as all of samsara is illusory.  There can therefore be no beginning of time, much less anything which exists at the beginning of time--but, from within a "closed system" of illusion, samsara, one could perhaps understand the primordial Buddha as the fundamental state.  As Malcolm has said, this fundamental state is connate with the very non-knowing which obscures knowledge of the state.  Time itself is a result of this non-knowing.

Queequeg said:
Fundamental Nescience - I don't know the Chinese. In Japanese its called 元本の無明 gampon no mumyo. I assume the Chinese is 元本無明

Its the level of ignorance overcome at the Buddha's enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Sanskrit this is called sahajāvidyā, connate ignorance. It is the most subtle knowledge obscuration that is the very last thing to be removed prior to mounting the stage of buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:


Astus said:
There is no separate awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
This the basic problem with translated the term "rigpa" as "awareness."

It simply does not work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
Samsara is beginningless due to mass .. mass creates time.

Malcolm wrote:
No, samsara is beginningless because of dependent origination. It has nothing to do with mass, time, the big bang or physics.


Minobu said:
time  eventually bends upon itself creating a circle of time which has no beginning and no end. Hence the observation that Samsara has no beginning and no end

Malcolm wrote:
This idea of time has nothing to with the subject matter. This idea is from physics.

Samsara has an end, that end is called nirvana.

Minobu said:
samsara came into existence

Malcolm wrote:
Samsara did not come into existence at all because it is beginningless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
glad you talking about the pure state before Samsara happening though.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it never existed because samsara is beginningless. This is basic.


Minobu said:
To deny time is just that.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna pointed out that time is not established. This is also basic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
a subject that any educated Geshe would simply say " The verdict is still out on this one".
No, it really isn't. We can call the dharmakāya the primordial buddha if we like, but the dharmakāya does not exist inside of time, so it is not really "primordial."

Minobu said:
Listen to what you just posted and answer me this. Define Primordial Buddha. You cannot , hence the verdict is still out. Your post is not a definition of anything , except in denying that it really has not been defined as in Sambhogakaya is well defined.

Malcolm wrote:
The Chandrakīriti citation I provided defines the two possibilities very well. It shows that one possibility, that of temporal first buddha, is impossible, while providing a usage for the term which is applicable to the dharmakāya. You further speculated about a pure mind that existed before samsara, and I rejected that possibility because ignorance is connate, arising together with the mind from the very beginning without being inherent to the mind in anyway. Even Samantabhadra had ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
As you should know the one true difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is the concept of Atman. Where Hindus see a created transmigrating inherent soul ,we see mind through the  knowledge of Sunyata.

Now take a glimpse of the whole concept of returning  to Paramatman and you get a glimpse of what I am so ineffectual  at pointing to for you malcolm. I am not saying Paramatman is accepted just using it to point to something other ,similar in INTENT.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand your point. There is no pure state to which to return. That is how I answered you.


Minobu said:
a subject that any educated Geshe would simply say " The verdict is still out on this one".

Malcolm wrote:
No, it really isn't. We can call the dharmakāya the primordial buddha if we like, but the dharmakāya does not exist inside of time, so it is not really "primordial."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
the original cause to create Samsara from this pure state I read in a book by a Tulku and asked a Tulku about and everything was fine until i said "If it was so pure how did we make such a big mistake and act on desire" not my original quote but it will do..
.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand your point. I replied. There was never any pure mind prior to samsara in time. Such a theory is utterly false and not consistent with Buddhadharma at all, even if some tulku enunciated it.

The Buddhist understanding of time is different than that of modern physics.

Minobu said:
When I get the book and the chapter on it I will post it.
I could be using the word purity and pure state when another word , which means the same thing , was used.

the Eden thing i took as a shot at trivializing my post. I will apologize and offer my hand. You might not have meant to ridicule. hopefully anyway..

i know im lousy at apologies when hurt.

as per Time and Buddhist understanding , like I already posted in this thread ...
A Nichiren ShoShu priest used his dinner plate to describe time and Hawking's theory .

A Tulku said it was a circle like Hawking's theory only each time around it is slightly different.

i dunno Malcolm , Ive been at this since i'm 15 and now 61 .. Ive met all kinds of people .

Had talks about stuff through a translator with  His holiness the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa of Mongolia.
He showed me how to bend the channels into the centre channel. I know name dropping sucks...but you don;t know me and you seem to just dismiss stuff after you actually agreed with it.

I think you might have reading disabilities, when it comes to reading me...

And yet you are a storehouse of knowledge and much more...i respect you...

Malcolm wrote:
Time is not established as truly existent. It is a perception for deluded sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


boda said:
Indeed, and isn't the Green Party on the front line? ... and not doing so hot.

Malcolm wrote:
The Green Party is just a green-washed party of the old left. This is why it is going nowhere.

boda said:
Is there any evidence that deep ecology is going somewhere?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, of course it is.

boda said:
Deep ecology is far more akin to a religion than a practical solution to ecological imballence, or rather, the survival of our civilization, if not our species.

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite practical since it accommodates other positive approaches to the environment and ecology. If you are going to continue to comment about deep ecology, I suggest you read Arne Naess' essay on Ecosophy T.

Now, this really is time for:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:20 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
the original cause to create Samsara from this pure state I read in a book by a Tulku and asked a Tulku about and everything was fine until i said "If it was so pure how did we make such a big mistake and act on desire" not my original quote but it will do..
.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand your point. I replied. There was never any pure mind prior to samsara in time. Such a theory is utterly false and not consistent with Buddhadharma at all, even if some tulku enunciated it.

The Buddhist understanding of time is different than that of modern physics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:16 AM
Title: Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis
Content:
Fa Dao said:
this might revive the conversation...
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/24/french-burkini-controversy-was-set-up-by-muslim-activist-family-in-concert-with-television-station/


Malcolm wrote:
Breitbart, seriously?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:03 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
and using the word edenic state is really insulting.[/b]

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see how.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 11:02 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
[

There was a state before Samsara ...somehow desire crept into the picture which created the cause for attatchment which created the cause for Karma.
]

Malcolm wrote:
No, there was never a pure state before samsara. If there was a pure state before samsara, one has to explain where samsara comes from, since it does not arise from itself. Even if you say that desire and other afflictions "creep in," and provide a cause for samsara, still they must have causes too, and cannot be self-originated.

We say that while the mind is inherently pure, since there is never any time the mind itself found this state of purity, ignorance is therefore connate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:35 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
How does one  say there is no beginning ?

.

Malcolm wrote:
Because it contradicts dependent origination.

Minobu said:
if there is no desire and zero karma >pre Samsara, then there is no interdependent co arising of anything. there is just pure mind without any manifestation of anything.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is connate, but not innate.

There is no temporal state of primeval purity. There is no edenic state from which we fell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:31 AM
Title: Re: Blue robes/clothes
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
Was there ever a time that there was a "blue sangha"?

Malcolm wrote:
Mahasaṃghika monks wore blue robes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 10:19 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
Deep ecology is defined as an ecological and environmental philosophy promoting the inherent worth of living beings regardless of their instrumental utility to human needs, plus a radical restructuring of modern human societies in accordance with such ideas.

Radically restructuring society somehow doesn't involve politics?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a political program nor a party. It is philosophical framework about these issues and their solutions. But it is not exclusive of other approaches to the same questions. It does not make a pretense of being monolithic in its approach, i.e, "The front is long", as Naess remarked.

boda said:
Indeed, and isn't the Green Party on the front line? ... and not doing so hot.

Malcolm wrote:
The Green Party is just a green-washed party of the old left. This is why it is going nowhere.

But party politics do not change society, nor do elections. Only mass movements make change.

The present climate crisis is a result of industrial capitalism. It will not be solved by the kind of thinking that produced industrial capitalism in the first place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thinking that issues of class can be resolved alongside the resolution of environmental issues is a distraction. The environment is more important. Without dealing with the environment, the resolution of class issues will just be patches.

Sherab Dorje said:
A distraction???  You think that environmental issues do not (also) have to do with class, capital and profit???

Like I said:  "They are not separate issues. That is why Deep Ecology failed politically."

I should add:  "...and will continue to fail politically".

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a political position. It's a philosophical and ethical framework out of which decisions might be made. Since people seem never to read Naess, they never get what he is talking about.

Deep ecology is a way of arriving at a system of values, which can then be expressed through political action. The expression of those values may be no different in expression than the way so called Social Ecologists express their convictions. For example, most Buddhists are, by and large, opposed to capital punishment for any reason; so are many Catholics. The framework through which they arrive at their shared opposition to capital punishment are utterly different, but in terms of the movement that they share, the outcome desired is mutual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
They are not separate issues.  That is why Deep Ecology failed politically.

Malcolm wrote:
Thinking that deep ecologically is a political movement is shallow.

boda said:
Deep ecology is defined as an ecological and environmental philosophy promoting the inherent worth of living beings regardless of their instrumental utility to human needs, plus a radical restructuring of modern human societies in accordance with such ideas.

Radically restructuring society somehow doesn't involve politics?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a political program nor a party. It is philosophical framework about these issues and their solutions. But it is not exclusive of other approaches to the same questions. It does not make a pretense of being monolithic in its approach, i.e, "The front is long", as Naess remarked.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
How does one  say there is no beginning ?

.

Malcolm wrote:
Because it contradicts dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thinking that deep ecologically is a political movement is shallow.

Sherab Dorje said:
It is not even a political movement anymore due to its inability to garner a base of support larger than a small insular group of white Malthusian rednecks.



Malcolm wrote:
Deep ecology is not malthusian. The population explosion happened for two mains reasons: yams and potatoes from the Colombian exchange, which addressed food scarcity issues in China and Europe respectively; followed by the petroleum age.

We do recognize that humans have well exceeded the carrying capacity of the planet— that is should we wish to preserve any species that are not immediately useful to us. What deep ecological thinking recognizes that standard leftist thinking does not, is that rivers, trees, birds, fish, nonhuman mammals etc., have rights, and that we should not feel we have the right to use more than we minimally need.


Sherab Dorje said:
Who said anything about "first" and "last"?

Malcolm wrote:
Thinking that issues of class can be resolved alongside the resolution of environmental issues is a distraction. The environment is more important. Without dealing with the environment, the resolution of class issues will just be patches.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. But this is all a distraction. The environment is more important.

Sherab Dorje said:
They are not separate issues.  That is why Deep Ecology failed politically.

Malcolm wrote:
Thinking that deep ecologically is a political movement is shallow.

Further, thinking that environmental issues will be resolved by resolving issues of class first is very mistaken. Socialism has no better a track record than capitalism with respect to the environment because socialism in all its forms never reject the capitalist mode of production. In fact, it is regarded as progressive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
DGA said:
The emergence of the alt-right, the Brexit vote, the Trump situation...  I think all these are in part a consequence of a refusal among liberal (center-left and neoliberal) programs and politicians to acknowledge class-based grievances, or to allow any discourse of class at all.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree with this. In fact, they are responding to a right-wing racist platform of class grievances.

DGA said:
My point is that the only lexicon they have to articulate a class grievance is a right-wing racist one, because the narrative of class grievance as such became taboo in the Reagan-Clinton years.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. But this is all a distraction. The environment is more important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 26th, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
DGA said:
The emergence of the alt-right, the Brexit vote, the Trump situation...  I think all these are in part a consequence of a refusal among liberal (center-left and neoliberal) programs and politicians to acknowledge class-based grievances, or to allow any discourse of class at all.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree with this. In fact, they are responding to a right-wing racist platform of class grievances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Does anyone recognise these text?
Content:
diamind said:
Do you know what these text are?  Are they from kangyur? and the English name
Toppoche  (stobs  po che)

Malcolm wrote:
This is the nineteenth chapter of the explanatory tantra of the dgongs pa zang thal, often referred to in English as the "Aspiration of Samantabhadra" (not to be confused with with sūtra text of similar name).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: I'm lost in my practice, someone can help enlighten me?
Content:


taidangau said:
I mean I still believe in Buddha and his teachings, BUT NOT TO SANGHA!!!!! Despite the fact that I had taken refuge in front of the 3 jewels, Buddha of course, Dharma naturally, BUT SANGHA?

Malcolm wrote:
When you are a Mahāyānist, you only take refuge in the Ārya Bodhisattva Sangha, not the sangha of monks and nuns, nor even the Sangha of Ārya Śrāvakas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Frankly, you seem to fetishize power.

Malcolm wrote:
Most Trumpistas do. Which is bizarre, because their candidate is a weakling, a complete sissy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
dreambow said:
I get your drift but I want to have a say. I don't want distant bureaucrats and politicians making policy on the run, unaware,  possibly indifferent to the outcome. I want a referendum in each country, let the people speak. Don't trot out another so called expert...not interested. Let the man in the street have his say and if the media and the vested interests can shut up the people may have a voice and point the way forward.

Malcolm wrote:
We are talking about the fact that one out of roughly every twelfth person on the planet is a refugee.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/refugees-global-peace-index/396122/

Inge said:
That is 1 out of 122 people according to the linked article.


Malcolm wrote:
Math is deifinitely not my strong suit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Rakz said:
=you have pretty much no clue what you're talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
You pretty much are a victim of neoliberal propaganda. You should look at the pew world income research I provided.

And have you ever been to either country? I have. Indian "Middle class" is a relative term.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Living with idle chatter all around you
Content:
Boomerang said:
All of my friends are nihilists. I don't think their views are going to corrupt me, but our entire relationships are based on indulging in idle chatter, and that upsets me. Sometimes the thought arises that I should cut them out of my life, but that seems like an unrealistic and unkind way of dealing with samsara as a lay person. Besides my friends, I'll still have to regularly interact with idle talkers, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, for the rest of my life.

Yesterday while talking with a friend, I subtly tried to steer the conversation toward reflecting on compassion and ethics, but it was still 90% idle chatter.

I don't know how to turn this into a good thing. Should I just accept that as long as I'm a member of society I'll have to engage in idle chatter and then do purification practices?

Malcolm wrote:
Idle chatter can be one of the means of conversion. Mahāyāna permits what Hinayāna prohibits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Blue robes/clothes
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No one anymore. But Guru P's shirt is blue,

Losal Samten said:
Would that have been blue proper or the krsna blue/black?

Malcolm wrote:
Sky blue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Blue robes/clothes
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
What group of tantics wear blue?

Malcolm wrote:
No one anymore. But Guru P's shirt is blue, symbolizing he is a mantra practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Goraksha
Content:
maybay said:
It seems strange that such an influential Mahasiddha shouldn't leave an actual instruction lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
He was not that influential among Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


Rakz said:
India and China as big examples.

Malcolm wrote:
India and China are in fact superb examples of how difficult it is to recover from aggressive colonialism. It has little to do with Marx or other political theories.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: The levels of SMS training
Content:


florin said:
Can you give the titles and the order of the practices of the mind series as they are spread over the 3 levels ?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I cannot tell you that. You have to go through the levels to discover precisely what is practiced when and where. Or you can ask ChNN directly. But we are not supposed to discuss the content of the individual levels. Sorry.

florin said:
Why not ?
By listing titles you are not revealing the contents of the practices involved ?
I do not understand how sometime we can discuss tantras and their content related to view but sometime we cannot.Arent all dzogchen tantras supposed to be secret ?

Malcolm wrote:
There was once a man who was told by his teacher that he had something very secret to teach him. So, with much anticipation, he showed up on the appointed day, and was given a very common Vajrapani mantra to recite. With great disappointment he exclaimed, "This is very common, there is nothing secret about it at all." To which the Lama replied, "It is true that this is a very common mantra, but you must practice this very secretly, then you will gain siddhis."

Long and short of it, we were told by ChNN not to discuss the content of SMS training at all. But it commmon knowledge at this point that level one has a formal ngondro, refuge, bodhicitta and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Goraksha
Content:
maybay said:
What of him? Does he continue in any Tibetan Buddhist lineages?

Malcolm wrote:
His empowerment is included in the empowerments of the 84 Mahasiddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: The levels of SMS training
Content:
florin said:
Can someone list the levels of SMS training as they are done in DC?
I only know the base level.

Malcolm wrote:
There are nine levels not including the base: three for the mind series; three for the space series; and three for the intimate instruction series. To my knowledge, no training has been held beyond the level 4.

florin said:
Can you give the titles and the order of the practices of the mind series as they are spread over the 3 levels ?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I cannot tell you that. You have to go through the levels to discover precisely what is practiced when and where. Or you can ask ChNN directly. But we are not supposed to discuss the content of the individual levels. Sorry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 25th, 2016 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: The levels of SMS training
Content:
florin said:
Can someone list the levels of SMS training as they are done in DC?
I only know the base level.

Malcolm wrote:
There are nine levels not including the base: three for the mind series; three for the space series; and three for the intimate instruction series. To my knowledge, no training has been held beyond the level 4.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: are you someone special?
Content:
tomschwarz said:
identity...

Malcolm wrote:
...is not the problem. Clinging to it, or thinking it is real, is the problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
None of it is trifling. It's all life and death serious. If any of this is trifling to Buddha, then Buddha is bull shit.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.

.

Minobu said:
That really says a lot and is probably going to slowly work it's way into my being and change a whole paradigm.
Like I really needed that running in the background..lol.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that all worlds and buddhafields, pure or impure, are contained within the body of the mahāsambhogakāya.

Minobu said:
Pure or impure Buddhafields? If you have the time could you talk of this a little further , it might help in other ways as per it's meaning.

And when you say contained , can you use other words to push me into a better realization of what you are telling us.

d

Malcolm wrote:
A pure buddhafield is Sukhavati, there is no suffering there at all. An impure buddhafield is this Sahaloka, since there is suffering. All are contained with the body of the mahāsambhogakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Why is Amitabha absent in American Zen and TB?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
Do you know what text this mantra is from?

Noone knows.

I'm guessing one of the lower tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a Tibetan corruption of Om Amithbha hrih, according to the famed Sakya Kilaya master and polymath, Amyezhab.


BuddhaFollower said:
And where did Om Amithbha hrih come from?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a name mantra. It does not come from any tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is well established that Shakyamuni's buddhafield is in fact this Sahaloka. See the Vimalakirti Sutra.

Coëmgenu said:
But my question is is this the only name for said land and is this the only way such a land can be understood to exist. Doesn't sahaloka mean "this world"? We call this world "the saha world". We call a world "loka" in Sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
Saha means "unbearable." It refers to this entire billion world system in which is found our world, which contains Jambudvipa (India).

Loka means world, sphere, universe. In this case Sahaloka means the Unbearable Universe because it is a place of misery and suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
None of it is trifling. It's all life and death serious. If any of this is trifling to Buddha, then Buddha is bull shit.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.

Queequeg said:
本佛 revealed himself to us in the form of Shakyamuni. He could have revealed himself in any number of other ways, but this is the way he did. I can't see Mahavairocana's palm, hand, or even a ridge of his palm print. I don't hear Mahavairocana's voice. But I do hear Shakyamuni. I see his srarira. He appeared as Shakyamuni in response to my afflictions, my perfect upaya.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that all worlds and buddhafields, pure or impure, are contained within the body of the mahāsambhogakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
. Candrakīrti's explanation is perfect:

As for the ādibuddha, some claim it does exist because a buddhahood without gathering accumulations is not reasonable; if there is no other buddha, the gathering accumulations itself is not reasonable; and because of beginninglessness, a single buddha is also not reasonable. Also many buddhas are not asserted because the dharmakāya is undifferentiated within the immaculate dhātu. Therefore, from the perspective of the dharmakāya, the time of full awakening and the time of being are not at odds. Therefore, from the perspective of the dharmakāya, it is also reasonable to present an ādibuddha, because ultimate nature of the dharmakāya is single."

Minobu said:
I have a problem with the bolded out text.

I started this thread due to the fact which I hold as essential to the whole concept of attaining Buddhahood.
One needed top be a samsaric being in the cylcle of rebirth, amass Karma, do the right thing and acquire merit, and somehow attain Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Minobu said:
So A Primordial Being/ Buddha from the beginning of the beginning in  the no beginning universe is at odds with the words above "because a buddhahood without gathering accumulations is not reasonable"

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because according to sūtra, a buddha needs to gather accumulations by respecting and honoring another buddha while that buddha is still on the bodhisattva path.

Minobu said:
Also the Dharma Kaya Body is produced upon enlightenment ...yes/no ????

Malcolm wrote:
The dharmakāya is seen when one mounts the stage of full buddhahood. The sambhogakāya is seen when one mounts the pure  bhumis. The nirmanakāya is all that one can see while one is an ordinary person or a bodhisattva on the impure stages.




Minobu said:
also I don't think it is beginning less, for there is a teaching somewhere in Tibetan Buddhism where there was this pure state before Desire crept into the picture, and samsara was created.

Malcolm wrote:
That state does not exist in time, and so therefore, it does not contradict the beginninglessness of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
TreeHuggingOctopus said:
(Marx) was much less of a diehard materialist than the champions of neoliberalism are, truth be told.

Wayfarer said:
But it's not true. Marx was a dedicated, die-hard materialist, I wouldn't gild the lily -  he did his doctoral thesis on Democritus' atomism and famously 'stood Hegel on his head'.   I agree with your other points, but the inconvenient truth is that capitalism alone has devised the means to harness the amazing power of modern science and to literaly lift billions out of poverty.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you have checked world income levels? And what is your idea of poverty?

Capitalism has destroyed subsistence living for billions of people, sent them to the cities in search of employment since they are not capable to surviving in a cash economy on their traditional land, and forced billions of people into sweat shops, etc.

Here are some real stats for you the world population:

Poor = 15%
Low income = 56%
Middle income = 13%
Upper-middle income 9%
High income = 7%

The income groups are defined as follows: The poor live on $2 or less daily, low income on $2.01-10, middle income on $10.01-20, upper-middle income on $20.01-50, and high income on more than $50; figures expressed in 2011 purchasing power parities in 2011 prices.


Taken from https://www.pewglobal.org/interactives/global-population-by-income/

The poor and low income people make up an astonishing 71% of the world's population.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Do Buddhas' not generate their Buddha Fields?

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamunis buddhafield is this Sahaloka, not just vulture peak.

Coëmgenu said:
not just vulture peak
Is the Pure Land of Shakyamuni limited to one name? To one definition?

If Shakyamuni is the Primordial Buddha, is his Pure Land not the Primordial Pure Land as well, generated by the Primordial Buddha? I think the description of the Pure Land atop the Holy Eagle Peak seems to match the definitions of a "Primordial Buddha Field" to accompany the Primordial Buddha. But that is only something *I* think. I do not claim to be a Buddhadharma expert.

PS: I do not intend to be arrogant or aggressively insistent, if thats how I come across, I am aware that my insistent questioning can be tiresome, especially on the internet, where intentions are shrouded and often misinterpreted.

Malcolm wrote:
It is well established that Shakyamuni's buddhafield is in fact this Sahaloka. See the Vimalakirti Sutra. Every planet in this billion world syestem has a Vajrasana, a Rajagriha, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 11:23 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
dreambow said:
I get your drift but I want to have a say. I don't want distant bureaucrats and politicians making policy on the run, unaware,  possibly indifferent to the outcome. I want a referendum in each country, let the people speak. Don't trot out another so called expert...not interested. Let the man in the street have his say and if the media and the vested interests can shut up the people may have a voice and point the way forward.

Malcolm wrote:
We are talking about the fact that one out of roughly every twelfth person on the planet is a refugee.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/refugees-global-peace-index/396122/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 11:14 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
dreambow said:
I get your drift but I want to have a say. I don't want distant bureaucrats and politicians making policy on the run, unaware,  possibly indifferent to the outcome. I want a referendum in each country, let the people speak. Don't trot out another so called expert...not interested. Let the man in the street have his say and if the media and the vested interests can shut up the people may have a voice and point the way forward.

Malcolm wrote:
The funny thing about people who distrust the media is that they get of their "trustworthy" information from the media.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the "this world" not the Pure Land of the Holy Eagle Peak? Isn't that the direct context of the verse-section, "my Pure Land is not destroyed" etc?

Malcolm wrote:
No.

Coëmgenu said:
Do Buddhas' not generate their Buddha Fields?

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamunis buddhafield is this Sahaloka, not just vulture peak.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:52 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the "this world" not the Pure Land of the Holy Eagle Peak? Isn't that the direct context of the verse-section, "my Pure Land is not destroyed" etc?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
Mahavairocana did not appear as a historical Buddha. This does not mean mahavairocana is not a legit Buddha. Just not the Buddha who appeared as Buddha for people of the Saha world in this age.

Malcolm wrote:
You don't get it. We live inside of the body of Mahavairocana. There are no budhafields not included in Mahavairocana's body. We live in a world system which is contained in the palm of his hand, Kusumatalagarbha-alamkara. From that point of view, the goings on in our own little Sahaloka are but trifles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:41 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
dreambow said:
'Until now, the Swedish media have
concealed the problems associated with immigration. All
those who tried to describe reality were intimidated and
silenced by epithets such as “racist” and “Nazi”.
For decades, the only legitimate view was the claim that
immigration enriches Sweden. Each report that appeared in
the public media, namely the liberal-leftist kind, concluded
with such a statement'
Only recently — since ten thousand immigrants have been
pouring into Sweden every week, and the government, police,
customs authorities and Migration Agency have no idea how to
manage the issue — has Sweden begun to talk openly about
the reality.

Malcolm wrote:
The fact is that there are something like 64,000,000 displaced persons in the world right now, a little less than 10% of the world population. As such, all countries, especially first world nations, should just step up and absorb the social cost of their own capital expansion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:35 AM
Title: Re: Why is Amitabha absent in American Zen and TB?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oṃ Amidevi hriḥ is a very common mantra.

BuddhaFollower said:
Do you know what text this mantra is from?

Noone knows.

I'm guessing one of the lower tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a Tibetan corruption of Om Amithbha hrih, according to the famed Sakya Kilaya master and polymath, Amyezhab.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 10:05 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
Is there a non buddhist philosophy that is closest to Vajrayana/Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
No, for none of them truly comprehend emptiness even nominally. Since they don't truly comprehend emptiness, their perception of appearances is mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Admin_PC said:
[EDIT: Scotch-Irish are Presbyterian, but they are Celtic,

Coëmgenu said:
Even the social construction of "Scotch-Irish" is a neocolonial holdover from the rape and pillage of Ireland by the English. The so-called "Scotch-Irish" are really just the people of Ulster, the Celtic kingdom of north-most Ireland. Years of plantations and orangism made us ashamed to be Irish, so we made up a new identity that seemed more British. This is coming from a Scotch-Irish former Presbyterian. Not that that makes me more historically learned, being from a certain group, but I can feel tangibly the effects of British supremacy in my family to this day.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is virtually nothing Scottish about the so called Scotch-Irish. I'm a McNab, so I ought to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 7:52 AM
Title: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[Moderator Note: Split from: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=23754]



Wayfarer said:
The world badly needs an alternative to capitalism that isn't communism, in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is called deep ecology/ left biocentrism, where "left" does not mean Marxist or even Socialist, but merely anti-capitalist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


MiphamFan said:
I am talking about the use of the term precisely by Naawaz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali et al. The "Left" which supports Neoliberalist trade policies, alliance with Saudi Barbaria and calls censure of Salafism "Islamophobia".

Malcolm wrote:
But it is islamaphobia. Salafism, like Calvinism, is a collection of bad ideas. But the censure of bad ideas never eradicates them. Instead, it just reinforces them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
French Canada

Queequeg said:
Je me souviens.

Why were they fighting with the Americans? Were they expecting independence, too?

Malcolm wrote:
They were enemies of the British Empire.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Queequeg said:
Meaning, we kicked those bastards to the curb by 1783. (No offense, I love you Brits, with your warm beer and crooked teeth.)

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they just got tired of subsidizing us and gave up. We did not kick anyone to the curb.

Queequeg said:
Will you stop it? You're like the evil uncle at the four year old's birthday party, popping all the balloons.

Malcolm wrote:
It is even worse, 85 percent of the colonial troops under Washington were from the New England states, with the rest coming from French Canada, and a few stragglers from here and there. Most people from New York south, were very content under British rule.

But we yankees were such a pain in the ass, they eventually allowed us to "win" and went home.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Queequeg said:
Meaning, we kicked those bastards to the curb by 1783. (No offense, I love you Brits, with your warm beer and crooked teeth.)

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, they just got tired of subsidizing us and gave up. We did not kick anyone to the curb.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The best way to protect Western Liberal Values is to practice them, and accept the risks our open society entails, including protecting the rights of freedom of religion for everyone, including Muslims, fundamentalist or otherwise, and Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise.

Rakz said:
This kind of soft attitude has worked well for Europe. Far right nationalists are now more popular than ever before. What do you think is responsible for that?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a soft attitude. It is just a harder standard to maintain since people actually have to live according to their Western Liberal Values rather than merely giving them lip service.


Rakz said:
Our WLVs are not protected by withdrawing into nationalist shells, and in fact that impulse towards nationalism inevitably results in tyrannies, as history shows. Trump is just the latest of the wannabe tyrants. And tyrants, we should all recall, only rise to power because of popular acclaim.
You may see him as a tyrant. I see him as a strong, masculine leader who deeply cares for his country. WLVs will not decline but flourish under his administration.

Malcolm wrote:
He is a pampered sissy. About as tough as a Pomeranian.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Admin_PC said:
British are typically implied.

Queequeg said:
Brits have nothing to do with White Culture.

Admin_PC said:
I have no clue what you're on about here, but southern US culture (especially on the plantations) is VERY heavily influenced by British culture.

Queequeg said:
Not really limited to the NorthEast.

There are no WASPS who would accept association with that Hilly Billy White Trash sh*t.
Those people look down on everybody.

Admin_PC said:
Not the sum-total of "white" culture, nor were the "Hilly Billy"s at the forefront of racial segregation in the south. "Hillbillies" are actually associated with the Appalachians & the Ozarks rather than with the deep south. Think "Hatfield and McCoys" versus "Gone with the Wind". The later culture was more responsible for organizations like the KKK, while the former were more rural outsiders.

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure that this has to do with alt-right racist dipshits...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Rakz said:
I don't agree with many things that the alt right speak of but I support them in stopping Islamization (which has led to the rapid decline of Europe) and protecting western liberal values.

Malcolm wrote:
The best way to protect Western Liberal Values is to practice them, and accept the risks our open society entails, including protecting the rights of freedom of religion for everyone, including Muslims, fundamentalist or otherwise, and Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise. Our WLVs are not protected by withdrawing into nationalist shells, and in fact that impulse towards nationalism inevitably results in tyrannies, as history shows. Trump is just the latest of the wannabe tyrants. And tyrants, we should all recall, only rise to power because of popular acclaim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
He criticizes Shingon because Mahavairocana is disembodied Dharmakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a false criticism, because Mahāvairocana is the nature of the five elements and is present through their presence in everyone and everything. In Shingon, the dharmakāya is imminent in all phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
WASP said:
White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) is an informal, sometimes disparaging term[1] for a group of high-status and influential White Americans of English Protestant ancestry. The term applies to a group who control disproportionate financial, political and social power in the United States.



Malcolm wrote:
Mostly in the northeast, as that is where most of the money is in the US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:


Queequeg said:
I actually agree with the gist of what you are saying. I find it mistaken when people take these passages and reduce Buddha to some sort of Creator God by emphasizing "father" in a biological sense. Seems to me, the correct meaning should be taken as "I am like the father of all beings." I've always understood this statement as referring to the ideal of the father as contrasted with the ideal of the mother. Mother is loving, nurturing, compassionate; Father is the guide to what is correct and proper; the ideal of upright conduct; the protector.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I agree. The idea of Pitṛ Brahma, Brahma the ancestor, is indeed the idea of a progenitor; but like virtually all these brahmanical references, the Buddha and Buddhists reinterpreted them morally and socially since they did not take them literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'
Admin_PC said:
Originally associated with WASPs (which Scotch-Irish are not), and then has grown from there. The newest trend is to lump non-black latinos into "white" culture as well.

Queequeg said:
WASPS means... Anglos in the NorthEast. .

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
The Regressive Left is just as much a problem that hasn't been pointed out in mainstream media.

Malcolm wrote:
Um, no. The term has become a right wind buzzword divorced from its origins:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Regressive_left


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:


Queequeg said:
The contexts in which these titles appear suggests that the paternal relationship is literal. Can you address that?

Malcolm wrote:
I did. In this context "father of the world", an epithet of Brahma, simply means "teacher of the world," and nothing more. Disciples are regularly referred to as children in Buddhist texts.

Queequeg said:
Not convinced. Neither am I disagreeing. There is, quite literally, more to it in this context and you haven't addressed the significance that these statements appear in the context of parables about fathers saving their children.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, lets look again at what the Sanskrit for that passage is:

emeva haṃ śārisutā maharṣī

sattvāna trāṇaṃ ca pitā ca bhumi|

putrāśca te prāṇina sarvi mahyaṃ

Śariputra, I, the great rishi,
am the protector (trāṇaṃ), the father (pitā) and the support (bhumi) for all sentient beings, 
all those creatures are my children.
This shows a paternal relation, but it shows only that. And India, a guru was more important than your father, so the language of the father guru, the pitṛguru, is very common.

The prodigal son parable is very compelling, but it is not original.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Why is Amitabha absent in American Zen and TB?
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Amitabha...

Malcolm wrote:
Is a huge practice among Kagyus and Nyingmapas.

Oṃ Amidevi hriḥ is a very common mantra.

Monlam Tharchin said:
Why do you suppose then that in the months I attended at the local Kagyu center, Amitabha was not mentioned once in dharma talks, questions, chants, or in the day-long retreats?
Is it not considered suitable for a general audience?

Malcolm wrote:
Probably because Amitabha practice is a separate cycle, and not every center will focus on it. But for example, it is a very popular practice at KTD. And also, the longevity form of Amitabha, Amitayus, is also extremely popular, and many Tibetan Buddhists recite either one or both of these mantras daily.

There is also the practice of the transference of consciousness, and in 90 percent of such practices, the goal of transference is Sukhavati, and Amitabha is the main object of visualization.

So in fact, Amitabha is extremely important in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism, in one way or another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
What exactly is "white culture" in the U.S.? And genetically, there isn't much difference to begin with, aside from the racial mixing that's been going on for some time.

Queequeg said:
I suspect the people who talk about White Culture mean the culture of people descended from the Scotch-Irish, which people like Pat Buchanan claim is the largest minority in the U.S.

Malcolm wrote:
White culture:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:


Queequeg said:
The contexts in which these titles appear suggests that the paternal relationship is literal. Can you address that?

Malcolm wrote:
I did. In this context "father of the world", an epithet of Brahma, simply means "teacher of the world," and nothing more. Disciples are regularly referred to as children in Buddhist texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 24th, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Why is Amitabha absent in American Zen and TB?
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Amitabha...

Malcolm wrote:
Is a huge practice among Kagyus and Nyingmapas.

Oṃ Amidevi hriḥ is a very common mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Queequeg said:
Is it simply a matter of adopting one of Brahma's titles? Immediately before this he relates the story of the physician who finds his children drank poison and became deranged.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that in fact is how Indians reading this text would understand it. Vasubandhu's commentary understands "father" (pitṛ) to mean teacher, thus it would read in his rendition, "I am the self-originated teacher (ācarya) of the world."

I know there is a great deal of resistance among Sinosphere Buddhists to accept that Indian Buddhists actually understood their own texts, but there is it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
DGA said:
the alt-right or "alternative right" is an increasingly mainstreamed political movement that has been touched on topically in the media but is, in my opinion, underestimated in its reach and its stench. This is a highly problematic situation.
...

Elsewhere I said that Trump represents a toxic, poisonous strain in US culture. I mean it:  this is ignorance, hatred, and greed all crystallized into one nutty mess.  Russia thinks its great, though.

Malcolm wrote:
The man is a fascist, as are many of his followers. The rest of them are just blind.

Wiemar, 1933 all over again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 10:41 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
What is your interpretation of this famous line from Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra?

"I am the Father of this world."

Malcolm wrote:
I'd want to see the original text.

Coëmgenu said:
An orthodox answer that will be readily accepted by most Buddhists who don't excessively venerate the Lotus Sutra will be that he is saying he is the "Father" of his Pure Land. But I was more looking for personal respponces.

I'm on a cell phone so I can't readily copy and paste, but I'll link you to the http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/16. It appears in the verse-section near the end.

Malcolm wrote:
It's ok, the epithet is in Sanskrit:
yameva haṃ lokapitā svayaṃbhūḥ 

cikitsakaḥ sarvaprajāna nāthaḥ|
"Lokapitā" is a title of Brahma, as is svayaṃbhūḥ, cikitsakaḥ, etc. Buddha frequently adopts the titles of Brahma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 10:23 AM
Title: Re: I am the Father of this world
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
What is your interpretation of this famous line from Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra?

"I am the Father of this world."

Malcolm wrote:
I'd want to see the original text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
That is a labored task.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, it is pretty obvious. Then there is the well known phenomena of light skinned African Americans skipping over the color barrier.

Queequeg said:
Yeah, race is a big complicated issue in America... unless of course you want to cram it down into your personally acceptable categories. Which is just more complication of race.

Go figure.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why nationalism is bullshit:
Genetic tracing suggests this initial migratory pulse out of Africa happened around 72,000 years ago. The ancestors of indigenous Australians and Papuans split from this pioneering group around 58,000 years ago as they continued to make their eastward journey. (By comparison, European and Asian ancestral groups diverged around 42,000 years ago.)


https://gizmodo.com/aboriginal-australians-are-humanity-s-oldest-civilizati-1786940046?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_facebook&utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Queequeg said:
-Andrew Jackson

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, another fine Indian killer and slave owner. Trump would fit right in with that lot.

The Cicada said:
It isn't fair to hold Jackson up to present standards.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is, just as it is fair to hold up Stalin, Hitler and Mao to modern standards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
Can you break this down a little?

What is meant by "gathering accumulations"?

Malcolm wrote:
Gathering accumulations means gather the accumulations of merit and pristine consciousness.



Queequeg said:
What is "time of being"?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no difference between when there was full awakening and the remainder of the career of the a buddha since there is no time in the immaculate dhātu at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
We identify the Primordial Buddha as Shakyamuni because that is how the Primordial Buddha last appeared in the form of a Buddha in the Saha World.

Malcolm wrote:
This is debatable.

The last time the "primordial buddha" appeared in this world system was in the person of nirmanakāya Garab Dorje. Prior to Garab Dorje, Śakyamuni appeared, prior to him, Abhisaṃbodharāja, and prior to him, Buddha Kashyapa, and so on.

Queequeg said:
Some Nichiren Buddhists think Nichiren was such a Nirmanakaya. This is not a consensus view at all.

I dig the pointing finger.

Malcolm wrote:
Nichiren as nirmanakāya is a later view. Garab Dorje as a nirmanakāya is stated at the beginning of the tradition by himself. But the latter is not important here in this forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
We identify the Primordial Buddha as Shakyamuni because that is how the Primordial Buddha last appeared in the form of a Buddha in the Saha World.

Malcolm wrote:
This is debatable.

The last time the "primordial buddha" appeared in this world system was in the person of nirmanakāya Garab Dorje. Prior to Garab Dorje, Śakyamuni appeared, prior to him, Abhisaṃbodharāja, and prior to him, Buddha Kashyapa, and so on.

However, this is not the important point. The important point is what ādibuddha actually means. Candrakīrti's explanation is perfect:

As for the ādibuddha, some claim it does exist because a buddhahood without gathering accumulations is not reasonable; if there is no other buddha, the gathering accumulations itself is not reasonable; and because of beginninglessness, a single buddha is also not reasonable. Also many buddhas are not asserted because the dharmakāya is undifferentiated within the immaculate dhātu. Therefore, from the perspective of the dharmakāya, the time of full awakening and the time of being are not at odds. Therefore, from the perspective of the dharmakāya, it is also reasonable to present an ādibuddha, because ultimate nature of the dharmakāya is single."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
So are you saying that Abhidharmakosa itself is the root teaching on which all else depends? Or more specifically, this teaching on the arising and destruction of the worlds is the Root Gate?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the book in which all the foundational ideas of Sanskritized Buddhism are found, common to both Hinayāna and Mahāyāna. For example, without reading the Kośa and its commentary, it is very difficult to make heads or tails of the Mulamadhyamaka karikas, not to mention Yogācara and Vajrayāna.

Queequeg said:
So, "Foundation" is different from "Root".

Malcolm wrote:
It is something like the anatomy and physiology of Dharma and its paths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In this case it is a translation of ādibuddha.


Coëmgenu said:
I don't know what the English word "Primordial" is a translation of, but Primordial does not just mean "first". It also means "fundamental" or "basic", of even "foundational".

Queequeg said:
The term "Primordial Buddha" is this: 本佛. The character translated as "Primordial" is 本.

本 has a wide range of meanings - From the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism
Basic Meaning: root
Senses:

Source, origin, essence, basis. To be rooted in, to find the origin in (Skt. upâdāya; Tib. nye bar bzung nas). The Sanskrit mūla, pūrva, ādi ( 'root' ) is transliterated as 慕攞. (Skt. prakṛti; grantha; atyanta, ākara, aditas, uddeśa, eva, jātīya, dravya, nityam, purā, purāṇa, puri, purima, pure, pūrvaka, pūrva-kāla, pūrva-prahīṇa, pūrvam, pūrvânta, pūrvika, paurāṇa, paurāṇaka, paurvika, prakṛtyā, pradhāna, bimba, bhāva, mūla-yoni, maula, yoni, samam, saṃbhava, sarvathā, sva) [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura, YBh-Ind, Hirakawa]

In Buddhist texts, often found in such compound words as 'original nature'  本性, 'original enlightenment'  本覺, or 'original Buddhahood' 本佛, indicating the human mind which is in essence undefiled and enlightened. [Charles Muller]

Radical, fundamental, original, principal, one's own; the Buddha himself, contrasted with 蹟, traces left by him among men to educate them; also a volume of a book. [Charles Muller; source(s): Soothill]

Book, document. [Charles Muller]

Early Middle Chinese (Pulleyblank 1991, p. 31): 'Originally, in its origin' ; 'once,' past tense Adverbial use: sentential adverb, following the subject: 'originally,' derived from the nominal meaning 'origin, source' . Classical, Han period Chinese, Buddhist literature. [Barbara Meisterernst]

Aspecto-temporal adverb in the Buddhist literature: preceding the verb, i.e. in the syntactic position typical for aspecto-temporal adverbs (following modal adverbs, but preceding prepositional phrases and manner adverbs): 'past tense,' 'once' . In this position similar to céng 曾. [Barbara Meisterernst]

'Etiology' of a disease, as in the compound 病本 [Robert Buswell]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
But there are more direct teachings, aren't there? Why go all roundabout?

Malcolm wrote:
All good houses need solid foundations.

Queequeg said:
So are you saying that Abhidharmakosa itself is the root teaching on which all else depends? Or more specifically, this teaching on the arising and destruction of the worlds is the Root Gate?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the book in which all the foundational ideas of Sanskritized Buddhism are found, common to both Hinayāna and Mahāyāna. For example, without reading the Kośa and its commentary, it is very difficult to make heads or tails of the Mulamadhyamaka karikas, not to mention Yogācara and Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Buddhism exists in history. What is the history of the Primordial Buddha? We have a foretaste in the older tradition, but not the fullness.

Malcolm wrote:
There are plenty of ahistorical innovations in Buddhadharma. And for example, Candrakīrti explicitly offers a qualified negation of the idea of an adibuddha, along the lines of what I explained above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 23rd, 2016 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
so what exactly are your views on this Primordial Buddha , i think it is a misnomer when placed before a Being.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no primordial buddha, since there was never a beginning. However, there have always been the three kāyas, since they too are without beginning and there is only one dharmakāya of the buddhas. So, we can say euphemistically that the dharmakāya is the primordial buddha in the sense that the dharmakāya is the nature of reality to be realized, and whether it is realized or not, reality is always there to be realized.

Coëmgenu said:
I don't know what the English word "Primordial" is a translation of, but Primordial does not just mean "first". It also means "fundamental" or "basic", of even "foundational".

There are three pieces of scripture, which are just scripture I know, but they shed some more light on this issue, at least from a historical perspective: Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."
(MN 28 in the Pali Canon) Enough Vakkali! Why do you want to see this foul body? One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me one sees the Dhamma.
(SN 22.87 in the Pali Canon again)

Not having a good handle on Chinese, I have little access to the āgamas, it is possible these quotes have parallels there. Nonetheless I found these quotes somewhat foundational for the Primordial Buddha discourse.

Malcolm wrote:
The Hinayāna dharmakāya as the doctrine of the Buddha does not really apply. Basically, this discussion is around the Nicherin identification of Buddha Śakyamuni as being the adibuddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
I've always respected your views. Have read you for years here .
As per 3 Kayas.  How can there be a Nirmanakaya Body when there was a time when it was impossible due to the absence of sentient vessels/bodies in this realm.

[/qupte]

There are infinite realms, therefore, there are infinite opportunities for the nirmanakāya to manifest.


Also do you feel like your slumming in this section...that might sound really sadisticly sarcastic and caustic but hey...I've no filters when it comes to social situations.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. But I do watch people get hopelessly tangled up in quasi theistic ideas all the time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Too hilarious:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/sep/22/the-dalai-lama-does-his-donald-trump-impression-video?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
But there are more direct teachings, aren't there? Why go all roundabout?

Malcolm wrote:
All good houses need solid foundations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Queequeg said:
-Andrew Jackson

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, another fine Indian killer and slave owner. Trump would fit right in with that lot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
so what exactly are your views on this Primordial Buddha , i think it is a misnomer when placed before a Being.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no primordial buddha, since there was never a beginning. However, there have always been the three kāyas, since they too are without beginning and there is only one dharmakāya of the buddhas. So, we can say euphemistically that the dharmakāya is the primordial buddha in the sense that the dharmakāya is the nature of reality to be realized, and whether it is realized or not, reality is always there to be realized.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.

Sherab Dorje said:
Actually, in regards to ChNN's son, he just argued that he is a literal reincarnation.

Malcolm wrote:
I stated that ChNN believes it is so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:



BuddhaFollower said:
Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?

Malcolm wrote:
He has genuine confidence in his son being the incarnation of his uncle. But that does not mean he has confidence in all, or even most, reincarnations.


BuddhaFollower said:
You were just arguing tulkus were not literal reincarnations, which I agree with.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I was not arguing that. Some tulkus, like ChNN are reincarnations of the people they were recognized as. But not very many.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
I'm not sure your point... so contemplating on the destruction of the world as set forth in Abhidarmakosa is the right guide for contemplation?

I find as the years go by, I'm less and less imaginative. I don't see any benefit at this stage in contemplating the origin of the universe. I could die this afternoon, and thinking about beings in the 4th dhyana at the destruction of the universe sounds like a wasted session on the cushion.

Malcolm wrote:
If you understand the sequence of how the universe arises and perishes, you are in a much better position to understand what happens to you when you die. It's basically the same process.

Queequeg said:
But there are more direct teachings, aren't there? Why go all roundabout?

Malcolm wrote:
Let me know when your buddhahood is not just an intellectual theory about interpenetration of realms...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
This approach strikes me as too literal, scholastic, theoretical. Guides contemplation off course.

Malcolm wrote:
Studying texts like the Kośa, and tenet systems in general is meant to eliminate concepts by introducing one to mistaken points of view. I regularly see participants on Buddhist boards engaging in all kinds of fantasies because they have not properly trained their minds in tenet systems. So they often have no idea what they are talking about since many of us here are uneducated dummies when it comes to Buddhadharma.

On the other hand, this is religion, so people can believe whatever the hell they like.

Queequeg said:
I'm not sure your point... so contemplating on the destruction of the world as set forth in Abhidarmakosa is the right guide for contemplation?

I find as the years go by, I'm less and less imaginative. I don't see any benefit at this stage in contemplating the origin of the universe. I could die this afternoon, and thinking about beings in the 4th dhyana at the destruction of the universe sounds like a wasted session on the cushion.

Malcolm wrote:
If you understand the sequence of how the universe arises and perishes, you are in a much better position to understand what happens to you when you die. It's basically the same process.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
Malcolm, you're going to have to circulate an appendix with a list of recognized and permissible categories. The memo didn't get around.

Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism, whether American or any other kind, is bullshit. American Nationalism, in particular, is bullshit, since the "American Dream" is built on a foundation of ethnic cleansing, genocide and human trafficking.

Queequeg said:
Yeah, we've been over this already.

Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I gave you a reference in a book so you could decide for yourself how to understand these things. I did not tell you to go off and ask Orgyen Tenzin how to understand these things.

Sherab Dorje said:
The book is written by a Tibetan lama too, yah know?

Malcolm wrote:
I mentioned that book in order that you could discover the substance of the six points since I do not have time to translate Lhatsun's book at the present time. It is not a high priority for me. Read or don't read it --- it really depends on how much you want to know about Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
This approach strikes me as too literal, scholastic, theoretical. Guides contemplation off course.

Malcolm wrote:
Studying texts like the Kośa, and tenet systems in general is meant to eliminate concepts by introducing one to mistaken points of view. I regularly see participants on Buddhist boards engaging in all kinds of fantasies because they have not properly trained their minds in tenet systems. So they often have no idea what they are talking about since many of us here are uneducated dummies when it comes to Buddhadharma.

On the other hand, this is religion, so people can believe whatever the hell they like.

Queequeg said:
Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’ But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are wholesome; these things are blameless; these things are praised by the wise; these things, if accepted and undertaken, lead to welfare and happiness,’ then you should live in accordance with them.

Malcolm wrote:
The Kalamas people were non-Buddhists, who by the end of the sūtra, convert to Buddhism.
"Marvelous, venerable sir! Marvelous, venerable sir! As if, venerable sir, a person were to turn face upward what is upside down, or to uncover the concealed, or to point the way to one who is lost or to carry a lamp in the darkness, thinking, 'Those who have eyes will see visible objects,' so has the Dhamma been set forth in many ways by the Blessed One. We, venerable sir, go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma for refuge, and to the Community of Bhikkhus for refuge. Venerable sir, may the Blessed One regard us as lay followers who have gone for refuge for life, from today."
Significantly, this sūtra merely shows a form of boosterism for the Buddha. It should be balanced with this from the Eastern Gatehouse Sutta:

"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Where do you make a concrete distinction between say, one promoting one's culture and it's perceived values (for instance, as Tibetans and others do), and Nationalism?

Malcolm wrote:
Not a big fan of Tibetan nationalism. It too is built on a tissue of historical fallacies and their own version of ethnic cleansing (in case any one ever wondered what happened to Zhang Zhung...)



Johnny Dangerous said:
Saying that all nationalism/patriotism is bullshit is not satisfactory answer to me,

Malcolm wrote:
That's ok.  I still insist that nationalism, and patriotism, is bullshit.


Johnny Dangerous said:
...simply saying it's all bullshit requires one to then say that people should organize based on something other than a perceived shared culture, ethnicity, shared values etc.

Malcolm wrote:
How about a shared planet which is the only one we can reach (since we live on it) capable of sustaining human life, not to mention all other forms of life we presently know of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism is bullshit, in any form.

Queequeg said:
Malcolm, you're going to have to circulate an appendix with a list of recognized and permissible categories. The memo didn't get around.

Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism, whether American or any other kind, is bullshit. American Nationalism, in particular, is bullshit, since the "American Dream" is built on a foundation of ethnic cleansing, genocide and human trafficking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
This points to American Nationalism being something fundamentally different than say, nationalism in the UK, or Germany, or Ukraine, or Russia, or whatever. Race or culture or religion does not matter to most of us as much as fundamental commitment to certain ideals, to a certain social contract.
The moment American nationalism becomes racial, I think it loses its meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
Nationalism is bullshit, in any form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The aggregates of an arhat are not transformed because they have not realized dharmakāya.

maybay said:
I thought it was the rupakaya they don't realize?

Malcolm wrote:
They also do not realize the dharmakāya since they do not realize two fold emptiness, not to mention they do not realize emptiness free from all extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole.


BuddhaFollower said:
Then why did he want his son to go to the monastery he is the tulku of?

Malcolm wrote:
He has genuine confidence in his son being the incarnation of his uncle. But that does not mean he has confidence in all, or even most, reincarnations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This says volumes, then of course there is Sthiramati's commentary on this work.

Astus said:
Does it? Sounds like the same argument used before.

Malcolm wrote:
Your qualms are clearly not going to resolved without reading several hundred pages of detailed analysis. That won't happen here. So learn Tibetan or Chinese and do the reading yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
and Gayley says that Dudjom Rinpoche was the body emanation (sku sprul). Does anyone know what the deal is?

Malcolm wrote:
Quite honestly, is it very important at all?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole. He has mentioned this quite often.

Sherab Dorje said:
I wasn't talking about the tulku "system" I was talking about the fact that he is a tulku.  Does he also doubt that he is a tulku?

Malcolm wrote:
He certainly did, for many, many years. And I am quite certain if you asked him if he were the same person as Adzom Drugpa, he would look at you very strangely. But you can try.

Sherab Dorje said:
In any respect, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself how to understand these things without needing to run to a Tibetan lama every time someone else has doubts.
So, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, coz 5 posts ago...

I will be chasing down the Big Red Book nonetheless, thanks for recommending it!


Malcolm wrote:
I gave you a reference in a book so you could decide for yourself how to understand these things. I did not tell you to go off and ask Orgyen Tenzin how to understand these things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Definitely the view that they are not the same persons is correct since we do not believe, in Buddhism, in the continuity of personhood at all. If we do, we are making a mistake.

Sherab Dorje said:
Sure.  But this means that there is not "this person" either. And yet here "I" am bugging the crap out of "you".

Anyway, you don't have to take my word on the matter, why don't you go ask your teacher?  He's a tulku after all.  I am 100% sure he knows a lot more than me about the issue.  Or his son.  He's also a tulku, isn't he?

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN has zero confidence in the tulku system, as a whole. He has mentioned this quite often. In any respect, I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself how to understand these things without needing to run to a Tibetan lama every time someone else has doubts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 22nd, 2016 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Arhats have an inferior conversion, according to Asanga, because arhats are afraid of transmigration and reject it since their realization of emptiness is confined to the selflessness of the person.

Astus said:
The Samgraha says nothing new on the matter, just that arhats know only personal emptiness while bodhisattvas the dual emptiness. It does not really discuss the aggregates in relation to the arhats. So, I don't think that work is of much help here.

"This conversion of support has six varieties: ... 5) inferior conversion— the realization by word-hearers of the non-self of persons, which completely turns away from transmigration and constitutes an eternal rejection of transmigration;

Malcolm wrote:
This says volumes, then of course there is Sthiramati's commentary on this work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Do I have to meditate to be a Buddhist?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
It's also impossible to experience a direct realisation of emptiness without practising formal sitting meditation on it because it is a very subtle object and we need powerful concentration and wisdom developed in formal meditation to realise it directly.

Malcolm wrote:
This isn't true.

Tsongkhapafan said:
I'm afraid it is.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it really isn't true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
That is a labored task.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, it is pretty obvious. Then there is the well known phenomena of light skinned African Americans skipping over the color barrier.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is what you might believe. I am comfortable with the idea of reincarnations (whether tertons or not) of being very separate persons from their predecessors. And, Dudjom Lingpa had more than one incarnation.

Sherab Dorje said:
So?  Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo has five types of emanations, with more than one in emanation of some of the categories.


Sku
Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Wangpo (1894?-1909)
Gsung
Karma Khyentse'i Ozer (1896–1945)
Second Beru Khyentse (Beru or Palpung Khyentse) (1946-)
Thugs
Sakya Punpo Khyentse (1900–1950)
Dilgo Khyentse Rabsal Dawa (1910–1991)
Se Phagchog Dorje (1854–1919), a son of Togden Shakya Sri
Yon tan
Dzogchen Khyentse Guru Tsewang (c.1897-c.1945)
Nangchen Khyentse Kunzang Drodul (1897-1946)
Phrin las
Katog Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro (1893–1959), later known as Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Chökyi Lodro

Like you don't have a problem considering them seperate persons I don't have a problem considering them the same.  Now who's view is correct is a point of contention that I am not really all that interested in.

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely the view that they are not the same persons is correct since we do not believe, in Buddhism, in the continuity of personhood at all. If we do, we are making a mistake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
This approach strikes me as too literal, scholastic, theoretical. Guides contemplation off course.

Malcolm wrote:
Studying texts like the Kośa, and tenet systems in general is meant to eliminate concepts by introducing one to mistaken points of view. I regularly see participants on Buddhist boards engaging in all kinds of fantasies because they have not properly trained their minds in tenet systems. So they often have no idea what they are talking about since many of us here are uneducated dummies when it comes to Buddhadharma.

On the other hand, this is religion, so people can believe whatever the hell they like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
Astus, see the first post in this thread.
I specifically addressed race or culture as basis for national identity and offered the American version as alternative.

Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately, the trend in America is to attempt to become "white" (look at how Italians, Irish, Jews, etc., were excluded from being considered white until the sixties). Therefore, with Trump we have a white, fascist nationalism that is on the rise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The aggregates of an arhat are not transformed because they have not realized dharmakāya.
The buddhas do not have cetana, because of the transformation of the samskara skandha.

Astus said:
So there are the upadana-skandhas, the anupadana-skandhas, and what is the third version?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats have an inferior conversion, according to Asanga, because arhats are afraid of transmigration and reject it since their realization of emptiness is confined to the selflessness of the person.

You should read the Mahāyāna Saṃgraha before resuming this discussion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Anupadāna-skandhas are the transformed aggregates.

Astus said:
That's what arhats have. How is there any difference then between arhats and buddhas in terms of the aggregates?
Arhats may be without craving, but they still have cetana.
Since even buddhas can be described by aggregates without attachment, they have cetana too. Furthermore, cetana is a universal mental factor, necessary for any mental function.


Malcolm wrote:
The aggregates of an arhat are not transformed because they have not realized dharmakāya.

The buddhas do not have cetana, because of the transformation of the samskara skandha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Btw, would say that Berzin is actually fairly kosher in his elucidation of rigpa's permanence expressed here:

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know. Vidyā is equated with vipaśyāna and knowledge in the old commentaries.

The more I study and translate the older layers of man ngag sde commentaries, the more I understand how much improvement there needs to be in how we translate things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.

Sherab Dorje said:
If you believe in reincarnation and tertons, then it is the continuation of the same mindstream.  So I do not differentiate between the two.

Malcolm wrote:
That is what you might believe. I am comfortable with the idea of reincarnations (whether tertons or not) of being very separate persons from their predecessors. And, Dudjom Lingpa had more than one incarnation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Illuminating Quotes by Malcolm Namdrol-la
Content:


Kim said:
Wonderful. In which traditions? Given by who?

Malcolm wrote:
I completed a three year solitary retreat of mixed Sakya and Nyingma practices, between 1993 and 1997.
.

TaTa said:
May i ask where did you do the retreat? Im looking for ideas. Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
In Central MA, but the place, literally, no longer exists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No one accepts that afflictions are a precondition for the arising of the mind, if one does, it renders the Pabhassara Sutta meaningless.

Astus said:
If that were the case, then no school could posit the disperse of the aggregates following parinirvana of the arhat. And that contradicts the accusation of the Hinayana schools' annihilationist view.

Malcolm wrote:
"Break up of the aggregates" generally refers to the separation of mind and body. But it does not mean that some Hinayāna schools did not posit that the "breakup of the aggregates" meant the utter cessation of the five aggregates altogether.


Astus said:
He just means upadana skandhas. For example, it well known that the mental aggregate transforms into the four pristine consciousness according to the Mahayānasamgraha
If aggregates without attachment may continue, then there is no point in their transformation, nor in changing vijnana into jnana.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a silly response. Anupadāna-skandhas are the transformed aggregates.

Astus said:
And nevertheless the Buddha has five aggregates.
Aren't they supposed to change into the four/five wisdoms?

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be so lazy, Astus. It is only the mental aggregate that that transforms into the four pristine consciousnesses.


Astus said:
Arhats are supposed to be without all kinds of craving. And craving for existence (bhavatanha) or non-existence (vibhavatanha) are two basic types of desire.

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats may be without craving, but they still have cetana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Therefore, you are asserting that afflictions are a necessary precondition for the arising of the mind, period.

Astus said:
And apparently so does everyone else who accept the twelve nidanas as Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
No one accepts that afflictions are a precondition for the arising of the mind, if one does, it renders the Pabhassara Sutta meaningless.


Astus said:
Even the Uttaratantra states:

"It is true happiness, since [even] the aggregates
of mental nature and their causes are reversed."
(v 38)

And DJKR comments:

"The dharmakaya has no aggregates, not even the subtlest aggregates, nor the cause of such aggregates, which is ignorance. When there is no ignorance and no result of ignorance, namely the aggregates, there is no suffering. That is transcendental bliss."
(p 46-47)

Malcolm wrote:
He just means upadana skandhas. For example, it well known that the mental aggregate transforms into the four pristine consciousness according to the Mahayānasamgraha:
Buddhas are beyond the aggregates, 
but also they enter the aggregates;
neither different from them nor the same, 
without abandoning them, they are well beyond the aggregates.
This should put to rest any idea that the buddhas lack aggregates.



Astus said:
So you think buddhas are pieces of wood, inert, like rocks.
As the Uttaratantra states, they make no effort, and all activities are illusory.

"Here the meaning of the chapter is as follows:
The nine aspects of physical display and so on
[show] that the Teacher has no birth and death,
and yet perfectly manifests without any effort.
Something that, similar to Indra, the drum, clouds, Brahma,
the sun, the precious king of wish-granting gems, an echo, space,
and the earth, effortlessly and as long as existence may last
fulfils others’ benefit is only conceived of by [supreme] yogis."
(v 363-364)

Malcolm wrote:
And nevertheless the Buddha has five aggregates.


Astus said:
When vijnana loses the two obscurations and only jnana remains, what is it that maintains the continuity? If you say it's the aspirations, then those vows were added to vijnana and the continuity is not the result of the absence of defilements.

Malcolm wrote:
I mentioned before that these aspirations are praṇidhānapāramitā. As such, since they are made free of the three wheels, they are an inexhaustible cause.

In the case of an arhat, what sustains their consciousness until they are aroused from the slumber of the samadhi of cessation is their intention to enter that samadhi.



Astus said:
Buddhahood is a supramundane jñana.
And what does that actually mean?

Malcolm wrote:
Supposedly you are an ācarya. I trust you can figure it out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The idea that there is a hard distinction between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena is a form of realism. The Dzogchen point of view is best, IMO:

It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing. 
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Thanks. Isn't that at times the meaning of unconditioned when the term is used in (some translations of) Dzogchen texts?

Malcolm wrote:
You can describe it like that, sure.

In Original Mind, MIpham makes this disctinction between the view of sūtra and the view of Anuyoga:

Furthermore, the Avatamska Sūtra asserts that the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses of buddhahood are impermanent by nature, but permanent by continuum. Those who assert the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses as the nature of the emptiness that possesses the supreme of all aspects are asserting that the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses are permanent by nature, and are asserting that they are impermanent by nature in the mode of appearing to trainees, according to what is taught in the Sūtra that Gathers All Intentions.

As such, from the perspective of the way reality is, while any phenomena included in the three times never moves from being the same by lacking birth and cessation in the natural state, since there is no need to reject or accept one side or the other of this duality arising distinctly as all phenomena there are such as self and other, samsara and nirvana, conditioned and unconditioned, past, present and future and so on, those in whom meaning of noncontradictory two truths that are equivalent with the teachings of the principles of realization endowed with eight profundities will easily give rise to the doubtless certain knowledge that is the intention of the sūtras and tantras of Mahāyāna.
He mentions in another text:
In both the example luminosity and the vidyā of the Great Perfection, the reflection of the sky-like meaning luminosity is an appearance for the water-like mind. Though emptiness is ascertained by the mind (that meditates on emptiness) to be unconditioned, while the mind (in which that aspect arises) is unconditioned, a mind and an emptiness that are discrete will not appear in experience, but will be distinguished in the subsequent knowledge, just like the form of the sky in the water.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now

krodha said:
Not to be a pedant, but I believe you mean Dudjom Lingpa.

Buddhahood Without Meditation is the title for the book which is a translation of his Rang bZhin rDzogs pa Chen po'i Rang Zhel mNgon du Byed pa'i gDams pa ma sGom Sangs rGyas bZhugs so.

Sherab Dorje said:
Is there a difference?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes. Dudjom Lingpa passed away in 1904. Dudjom Rinpoche was born in 1904.

As far as the big red book goes, no, you dont need a lung, but it is good to receive it anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Kelwin said:
As for the quote by Milarepa, I have no idea why that would refer to the Great Perfection?  Is this the specific Tibetan terminology used here?

Malcolm wrote:
The term he uses for "prowess" is "nyams rtsal." The term is common enough, but the Lhastun is pointing out is his use of it in connection with awakened mind, byang chub sems, which Lhatsun apparently takes as a Dzogchen reference.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
At this point, easier said than done.

Malcolm wrote:
If we keep saying it, it will get done.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
DGA said:
related:  is there a meaningful distinction between prajna and jnana in Zen discourse?  this has come up as a problem before, for instance here

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=22352#p331645

and elsewhere


Malcolm wrote:
No idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Pondering" means learning Dzogchen teachings throughly yourself. Reading Dudjom Rinpoche's Big Red Book will help that goal.

Sherab Dorje said:
Thanks for the tip.  Do you need a lung for that one?

Received lung for Dudjom Rinpoche's "Buddhahood Without Meditation" twice now and plenty of tri, and it still has not shown me any specific points where Dzogchen (the state) differs from the state of Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
The state of Prajñāpāramitā, Mahāmudra, and Mahasandhi are the same; their paths however, different, and of course in my opinion, are respectively more profound. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You have not even begun.

Sherab Dorje said:
I notice that you did not answer to my points though.  So you are not helping my pondering.


Malcolm wrote:
"Pondering" means learning Dzogchen teachings throughly yourself. Reading Dudjom Rinpoche's Big Red Book will help that goal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
For the principal that we act out of self interest? We can just proceed on Adam Smith's ideas. Makes no difference to me. Or Oliver Stone's Gordon Gecko - "Greed is Good!" The point is to pull some mental jiujitsu on that self interest by expanding the notion of self and turn it into a motivation for the common good.

Malcolm wrote:
I would rather just extend rights to the planet through giving it status as a legal person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This does not show that the mind arises because of afflictions. It merely shows that mind is conditioned by afflictions.

Astus said:
When there is one, there is the other, when the one is not, then the other is not - that is the basic structure of dependent origination.

Malcolm wrote:
Therefore, you are asserting that afflictions are a necessary precondition for the arising of the mind, period.



Astus said:
Are you also proposing Buddhas are like pieces of wood? Without any consciousness at all?
"Buddha-activity is unceasing because it is devoid of conceptualising"
(Uttaratantra 7.284, tr Holmes)

Malcolm wrote:
So you think buddhas are pieces of wood, inert, like rocks.


Astus said:
Beings experience buddhas and lands dependent on their perception. Buddhas are beyond thought and intention. What kind of consciousness is there to be for them?

Malcolm wrote:
Jñāna. The only difference between dualistic consciousness (vijñāna) and pristine consciousness (jñāna) is the presence and absence of the vi- prefix. They are both a kind of consciousness, however, and they exist on a continuum. With the removal of obscurations of both afflictions and knowledge, vijñan̄a gradually becomes jn̄āna. The Uttaratantra states:
Sentient beings, bodhisattvas and tathāgatas are described as
Impure, impure and pure, and extremely pure, respectively.
And:
The dharmakāya is the pristine consciousness (jñāna, ye shes) of the Victor.

Astus said:
Is a buddha a consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhahood is a supramundane jñana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
[

Is that enough pondering?
.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not even begun.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
Yeah, and Buddhism is about undoing that, naming that as one of our main problems. 80,000 scriptures explaining why and how we should go about this. I think we can say, this is an intrinsic problem that we have... what if we harnessed it?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't share your enthusiasm for trying to apply Buddhist philosophical principles in legislation. I think it is an error to do so. Why? We are not all Buddhists.


Queequeg said:
the idea that we are going to redraft the constitution on that theory is science fiction.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't have to redraft the constitution. All we have to do is recognize the planet and its ecosystems as legal persons. For example:

In a landmark case for the Rights of Nature, officials in New Zealand recently granted the Whanganui, the nation's third-longest river, with legal personhood "in the same way a company is, which will give it rights and interests". The decision follows a long court battle for the river's personhood initiated by the Whanganui River iwi, an indigenous community with strong cultural ties to the waterway.
http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/river-new-zealand-granted-legal-rights-person.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Is the Dharmakaya unconditioned and uncaused?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Pretty straightforward: is the Dharmakaya unconditioned and/or uncaused?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on who you ask.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2016 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Reasons are given. Now that Dudjom Rinpoche is your paramaguru, perhaps you should read and ponder his arguments which make the same six points.

Sherab Dorje said:
Perhaps, and perhaps I can also apply some critical thinking and discriminatory wisdom too.  It's actually encouraged, if I remember correctly.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, perhaps you should ponder his arguments, rather than just go to the kneejerk fake Rime response.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Astus said:
A small reminder of the twelve nidanas then: ignorance -> formations -> consciousness -> name and form (name = consciousness) -> six ayatanas (sixth ayatana = consciousness).

"Only the skandhas, conditioned by defilement and action, go reincarnating themselves by means of the series of intermediate existences. As an example: the lamp."
(III.18a-d; vol 2, p 399)

Do you propose a consciousness beyond the five aggregates?

Malcolm wrote:
This does not show that the mind arises because of afflictions. It merely shows that mind is conditioned by afflictions.



Astus said:
We can know from many sources, including the Pabhassara Sutta, that afflictions are not inherent to the mind.
Afflictions are not inherent to the mind, and that's not been stated here. What is stated is that ignorance gives rise to birth, and birth includes the birth of consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas are free from afflictive and uncontrolled birth. They, as well a bodhisattvas on the pure stages, appear wherever they like.

Are you also proposing Buddhas are like pieces of wood? Without any consciousness at all? Are you further proposing that afflictions are inherent to the skandhas?

Astus said:
If the mind arose from affliction, it could never be free of affliction
Wheat grows from the soil, but bread should not have soil in it. And there is the well known metaphor of the lotus. The whole world is said to arise from ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
But it is never said that the mind arises from ignorance. Furthermore, your metaphor is mistaken. Bread may not have soil in it, but that is because bread is something refined from wheat. Wheat itself is inedible. It requires a great deal of processing to turn into bread.

The lotus example is used to describe how it is that the Buddha appeared in the swamp of samsara without being affected by it. The swamp is merely a condition, it is not a cause. The cause of a lotus is a lotus seed (bodhicitta). If you propose something which is a cause, like a wheat seed, it should produce a wheat plant, and not a lotus flower. Likewise, if the cause of the mind is ignorance (wheat seed) it is impossible that a mind could ever be awakened (lotus), since its nature and its continuum is inherently ignorant (wheat), since its cause is ignorance (wheat seed).

Astus said:
If we follow your idea, it would seem that all there is samsara, and ultimately, when the mind ceases, samsara ceases.
When there is no more birth there is no more samsara. I have not realised this is my idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, pay more attention to what you write.

Astus said:
Why?
I'm not asking to leave Dzogchen out, but simply to provide others who support it.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

I prefer Dzogchen citations. Other people prefer sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Do I have to meditate to be a Buddhist?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
It's also impossible to experience a direct realisation of emptiness without practising formal sitting meditation on it because it is a very subtle object and we need powerful concentration and wisdom developed in formal meditation to realise it directly.

Malcolm wrote:
This isn't true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Well if a Dzogchenpa says that Dzogchen is superior to every other system then it must be true...

Malcolm wrote:
Reasons are given. Now that Dudjom Rinpoche is your paramaguru, perhaps you should read and ponder his arguments which make the same six points.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If ignorance were the ultimate or first cause of the mind (it isn't) than everything you say would make sense. But ignorance is not the ultimate or first cause of the mind, and in fact, ignorance is not inherent to the mind, as your query suggests.In fact, it is affliction in general that drives samsara, but afflictions do not drive the mind.

Astus said:
What Mahayana teaching is it that goes beyond the twelve links of dependent origination? The twelve is what establishes ignorance as the root cause...

Malcolm wrote:
In Chapter 3 of the Kośabhaṣyaṃ, Vasubandhu, representing the Sautrantika point of view, rejects the idea, quite decisively, that ignorance is the first cause of the 12 nidanas. And the Buddha never says anywhere that afflictions are the cause of the mind. Afflictions are merely the drivers of karma, and the result of karma is samsara. Further, people commonly make the error of not distinguishing between ignorance which is an affliction (the "first" link of the nidanas), and ignorance which is a knowledge obscuration which mistakenly apprehends a self — the two are not the same. The former, an affliction, arises from the latter.

Astus said:
and it is also what is given as the force driving both the mind and the whole of the world.

Malcolm wrote:
No, an afflicted mind results in karma, and karma results samsara, but it is never stated anywhere that afflictions are the cause of the mind. We can know from many sources, including the Pabhassara Sutta, that afflictions are not inherent to the mind. If the mind arose from affliction, it could never be free of affliction:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
If we follow your idea, it would seem that all there is samsara, and ultimately, when the mind ceases, samsara ceases.

Astus said:
(If possible please give something else as well, besides Dzogchen sources.)

Malcolm wrote:
Why?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Kelwin said:
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.

Kelwin said:
We've all read lots of texts saying it is superior. And lots of texts saying it is the same/similair. Personally, I like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's perspective. Does Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme offer any new argument to the conversation that hasn't been translated before? I'd certainly be interested! Summary of the point he makes more than welcome.


Malcolm wrote:
He lists six points of superiority:

1. The Great Perfection is superior through its preliminary practice.

2. It is superior through its ripening empowerments.

3. It is superior through its physiology of nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus.

4. It is superior through the great transference rainbow body of the fourth vision of thögal.

5. It is superior through its method.

6. It is superior through its explanation of the measurement of liberation.

Indeed, he finds evidence that Milarepa practiced the preliminaries of the Great Perfection (ever a subject of controversy) in a verse from one of Mila's songs:
I, MIlarepa, have gained prowess, 
prowess in the training in awakened mind.
Dudjom Rinpoche more or less cribs his arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen from this source.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
You have to assume personhood.
It's a fiction and it's demands too much abstract thought.

Malcolm wrote:
We assume personhood with regards to human beings all the time, even though it is a fiction.


Queequeg said:
Much better approach is take advantage of people's grasping at self and show them how their self encompasses the planet. Then they want to protect the planet out of self interest.

Malcolm wrote:
It has not worked so far. When people think they own something, they generally think they have the right to exploit it for their own interests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:
muni said:
Since that mindstream lacks the slightest partiality, there is no basis for a singularity;
because there is no partiality in that, all the infinite worlds are my body.
My body also appears as the infinite worlds and bodies of living beings.
The mind and traces are not the same, not different, and are very hard to investigate.
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing.
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation.
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.

Then how come, that our behaviour is often in contradiction of your wise sharing here? How come that partiality still is and so the basis of singularity is? There is no self and other. _/\_ How come mind still clings in behaviour to entities?

Yes. Any clinging is our problem, just as clinging to cause and result. But when we do not know the cause of our suffering, we suffer the results and this not knowing is itself by the idea of a singularity its’ confused clinging to entities/things and so it’s actions = karma.

I think it is good to reflect and contemplate about what you shared here.

Malcolm wrote:
When we don't recognize our own state, we still perceive partiality, etc. There is no basis for singularity, since as it says above, there is no manyness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, dependent origination is a mind-driven process. Isn't that plainly obvious?

Astus said:
Of course. What is it that drives the mind? The Hinayana position is that it is ignorance, and with the ignorance removed there is no reason for another birth. Mahayana follows that view, that's why it needs to exchange ignorance with aspirations, since that type of understanding comes from the Hinayana version of the bodhisattva path, in other words, all the Mahayana explanations are built to back up an already accepted model. And the problem I see here is that it lacks the explanation for why arhats could not simply end the process, thus questioning the assumption that the mind-stream is unceasing.

Malcolm wrote:
If ignorance were the ultimate or first cause of the mind (it isn't) than everything you say would make sense. But ignorance is not the ultimate or first cause of the mind, and in fact, ignorance is not inherent to the mind, as your query suggests.

In fact, it is affliction in general that drives samsara, but afflictions do not drive the mind.

Third, just because one no longer takes rebirth in the three realms does not mean that one's mind has ceased to exist. The mind does not exist in the three realms; the three realms exist in the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:23 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
Expansive as that nominally is, it strikes me as ideological and ultimately false.

Why not just go all the way?

Buddha Dharma based constitution.

Malcolm wrote:
Because I am not into inflicting my religious beliefs on others and enshrining them into law.

But we do live in a biosphere, which ought to be treated as a person.

Queequeg said:
We hold these truths to be self evident... phenomena are empty; phenomena are conditional; phenomena are the middle way.
It is the duty of the State to Enhance the Freedoms and Advantages for all beings (basically, I think we can crib Nagarjuna's Jeweled Garland...)

Is Buddha Dharma religion? I thought it was reality...

Viewing biosphere as a person is as problematic as corporate personhood, though I'm more in favor of it, practically speaking.

But getting people to think of Gaia as a person... the misogynists will not let that happen, let alone the Christians.

I think we get further by encouraging the redefinition of people... without getting to emptiness, getting people to reflect on their dependently originated nature - even just at material levels - would probably be more effective than trying to convince people the Earth is a Person - whatever that could mean.

Malcolm wrote:
It means that she too has inalienable rights, the same as ours.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 10:08 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
there are no buddhas who made no aspirations

Astus said:
Ignorance cannot be what sustains rebirth, because then arhats would be finished, as they are without aspirations. It also cannot be established that arhats grasp at non-existence and that's why they succumb temporarily to an inactive state, since they are without any form of identification with anything. Furthermore, if aspirations are necessary for the buddhas to remain functional, that in itself means that dependent origination is driven by mental effort.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, dependent origination is a mind-driven process. Isn't that plainly obvious?

As for your other qualms, they have been adequately addresed already.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 7:52 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Kelwin said:
I guess that's a topic for a seperate thread, but I'd be really interested to know how many people vote 'human invention', and how many people would vote 'deities teaching from another realm'. Possibly a bit of both.

Sherab Dorje said:
Is there a difference?

Kelwin said:
Spaghetti monster tells me to say 'no'. Does is matter if it's him or me?

Termas are full of superiority complexes. I guess it kind of matters if it's 'just' individuals writing inspired poetry, or actually enlightened beings trying to guide us all to something better. It also gives a different perspective on the question whether Dzogchen is somehow superior to all other paths or not.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a very nice book composed by Lhatsun Namkhai Jigme which sets out to prove the superiority of Dzogchen. Perhaps I should translate it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


tomschwarz said:
Please consider this and the vastness of reality's expanse when you feel anything categorical.   It's bound to be wrong.  No?

Malcolm wrote:
While I respect HHDL, I prefer Mañjuśrimitra's perspective more:

The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing.
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2016 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
biocentric perspective

Queequeg said:
Expansive as that nominally is, it strikes me as ideological and ultimately false.

Why not just go all the way?

Buddha Dharma based constitution.

Malcolm wrote:
Because I am not into inflicting my religious beliefs on others and enshrining them into law.

But we do live in a biosphere, which ought to be treated as a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Then you and CW are just talking past each other, are you not?

Astus said:
I do not see how. Consciousness, any kind, is necessarily conditioned. Nirvana is not a consciousness, but the final extinction of defilements. CW is of the opinion that somehow there can be an unconditioned consciousness. That I call illogical and impossible, because consciousness is always the awareness of something, and that means change, but change cannot happen to what is unconditioned.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Not quite. CW is of the opinion that all consciousness (vijnana) is afflicted, unestablished and conditioned -- but there is also unafflicted cognition (aka as wisdom, jnana) which is unestablished and unconditioned. Controversial?

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that there is a hard distinction between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena is a form of realism. The Dzogchen point of view is best, IMO:

It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing. 
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Our systems depends on every American having 45,000 people work for them. At the cost of the environment. Our country is the number leading cause of global warming.
Yes, I was saying that this the number of people in the world per first world citizen, whose labor is required to keep even the poorest of us in the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed.

Inge said:
Population in the US is 324,227,000 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States )

324,227,000 X 45,000 = 14,590,215,000,000
World population is 7,400,000,000

14,590,215,000,000/7,400,000,000 = 1971.65

Are there people amounting to 1971.61 times the world population working for the Americans?
What about the numbers?

Malcolm wrote:
I will find the source of the stat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
All phenomena are anicca

Malcolm wrote:
No, space and the two kinds of cessation are unconditioned and permanent.

Crazywisdom said:
Nominal designations. One could have said something else. Like space is conditioned by vastness or such. Cessations also could have been made to not fit into category of phenomena


Malcolm wrote:
They are called dharmas because they bear characteristics. They belong to the dharmadhātu/dharmāyatana. Cessation due to analysis is nirvana. Cessation without analysis is simple absence of a cause for arising. Unconditioned space is the absence of obstruction, as the name indicates, akaśa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It's enough to understand that the Khanda are Anatta, anicca and dukkha.

Malcolm wrote:
The skandhas do not include all phenomena.

Crazywisdom said:
All phenomena are anicca

Malcolm wrote:
No, space and the two kinds of cessation are unconditioned and permanent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the cause of the continuity of buddhas is the force of previously made aspirations. This is not controversial. Buddhas are beyond birth and death, as are bodhisattvas on the pure stages.

Astus said:
How can they be beyond rebirth when there is no end of birth?

Malcolm wrote:
They are beyond rebirth as a corollary of attaining power over birth through attaining patience for the non-arising of phenomena. Again, completely noncontroversial...the rest of your query is senseless, there are no buddhas who made no aspirations...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Mahakala Namcho
Content:
AnthonyKing said:
Hello
I have a request to the forum participants.
We were coming to town Dzatrul Rinpoche. And I would like to ask him for the practice of Mahakala.
But I do not know what the transmission lines it owns. My friends said that he most likely has Namchö.

And I would like to ask members of the forum of Mahakala Sadhana Namchö cycle.
The texts with translations into any European language.

With them, I will ask for the transmission of Rinpoche.
Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Dzatrul Rinpoche is principally a practitioner of Dudjom Tersar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
their continuums are sustained on infinite causes.

Astus said:
Ignorance is taught to be the root cause of birth. Saying that birth can never end means that ignorance cannot be the root cause. What is it then that sustains it?
Praṇidhāna-pāramitā.
For bodhisattvas and buddhas compassion is said to be the driving force so that they don't abandon beings. Such a condition is needed if birth can end. But since birth cannot end, there is no need for such an aspiration, and there is always either a deluded or an enlightened inclination that sustains birth, in which case both types of beings are subjects to birth and death. Thus nirvana is samsara.


Malcolm wrote:
Astus, the cause of the continuity of buddhas is the force of previously made aspirations. This is not controversial. Buddhas are beyond birth and death, as are bodhisattvas on the pure stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:
tomschwarz said:
So please consider the question, do sentient beings have "being"?  Because if they do, then they most definitely exist based on the dictionary definition  (versus Buddhist definition) of "exist".

Malcolm wrote:
The buddhist definition is the only one of interest to me, since I am interested in reality, and not delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It's enough to understand that the Khanda are Anatta, anicca and dukkha.

Malcolm wrote:
The skandhas do not include all phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Bakmoon said:
As mentioned previously, the Theravada school rejects the position that Nirvana is a cessation, and posits that Nirvana is a positive permanent phenomena, and that during the attainment of Nirvana, it is directly cognized by a supermundane consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, understood, in this respect their position is little different than Sarvastivada. The Sautrantika view, IMO, is in fact better. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is not that they must, it is simply that they do.

Astus said:
That still makes it an eternalist interpretation. Beings are literally immortal.

Malcolm wrote:
No, since their continuums are sustained on infinite causes.

Astus said:
Aspirations.
That is? Ordinary beings have selfish aspirations, while noble beings have selfless aspirations?

Malcolm wrote:
Praṇidhāna-pāramitā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Still it leaves us asking whether we should support demonstrably good things which came from demonstrably bad things, or go with something else.

Malcolm wrote:
The question we have to ask ourselves, is not what we want, but rather, what will people 7 generations from now want.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
That's part of the paradox of all modernity, not just America.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree, this extends to all countries where we can find advanced capitalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I'm not saying people should be silent at all, I'm simply stating that claiming that ignorance always = complicity is kind of pointless argument, as it means that individuals in every society on the planet ever are then guilty of the actions of it's power structures.

Malcolm wrote:
They are. There were no good Germans. It is not about guilt. It is about truth.

Johnny Dangerous said:
And grandstanding.

Being proud of some things within America (such as those mentioned in People's History which you cited) in no way means that people need to ignore the other things, in fact it should mean the opposite.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, all the good things mentioned in PHUS came as a result of the rise of an economically privileged class in the colonies. All the rest of the good things in America are also the result of the increasing economic privilege of Americans which has come at the cost of the wholesale environmental crisis we are presently living through. When one takes the biocentric perspective, it shows the fallacy of any version of American exceptionalism, from hard to soft.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Do we all need to be defined by the actions of our government and military apparatus?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, I think we do. When we understand that we are viewed individually by the actions of our gvt., then we can't take a "what, who, me?" attitude. Silence = consent.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I'm not saying people should be silent at all, I'm simply stating that claiming that ignorance always = complicity is kind of pointless argument, as it means that individuals in every society on the planet ever are then guilty of the actions of it's power structures.

Malcolm wrote:
They are. There were no good Germans. It is not about guilt. It is about truth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, since Sautrantikas assert that Nirvana is a nonexistence, it is definite that the highest Hinayāna view maintains that nirvana is a nonexistence. Other Hinayāna schools maintain that nirvana is some unconditioned phenomena, belonging to cessation due to insight.

Astus said:
I assume you're referring to this:

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to another discussion on the nature of Nirvana in the Kośa, whether unconditioned Nirvana posited by the Sarvastivadins is critiqued and found wanting.


Astus said:
If the purified continuums of buddhas and bodhisattvas do not continue forever, it follows that they must somehow cease.
That is simply exchanging "self" for "continuum", and positing the extremes of existence and non-existence.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not simply exchanging a self for a continuum. It is also not positing any extreme of either.


Astus said:
If they must somehow cease, this is an annihilationist position.
And if they must persist, it is the eternalist position.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not that they must, it is simply that they do.


Astus said:
If you are argue it is merely a self within that continuum that does not cease because it does not exist, this still leaves us with the purified continuum of buddhas and bodhisattvas persisting forever since there is no condition by which such a continuum should cease given that there is no condition by which the continuums of sentient beings, the object of their compassion, will cease.
What is the maintaining force of that continuum? It cannot be ignorance, or defilements, nor can it be wisdom, or compassion. Then what?

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Aspirations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Do we all need to be defined by the actions of our government and military apparatus?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, I think we do. When we understand that we are viewed individually by the actions of our gvt., then we can't take a "what, who, me?" attitude. Silence = consent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The latter leads to the former.

Astus said:
Not necessarily, because one can attain not only arhatship but also the state of the non-returner.
The Mahāyāna point is that arhats, when they pass away, enter that equipoise and remain there, since we do not accept that there can be an absolute cessation of the mind.
There is no arising, hence no cessation either. It is because all appearances are unborn that they are no different from nirvana. That's why the emptiness of phenomena is emphasised as the unique wisdom of bodhisattvas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this emptiness of phenomena is a unique point of Mahāyāna unknown in to Hinayāna adherents. I know you are valiantly trying to save Hinayāna tenets from being hoisted on their own petard but...


Astus said:
However, it is a misinterpretation even in Hinayana to say that an arhat ceases to exist, for the same reason it is a mistake in Mahayana: there is nothing to cease.

Malcolm wrote:
No, since Sautrantikas assert that Nirvana is a nonexistence, it is definite that the highest Hinayāna view maintains that nirvana is a nonexistence. Other Hinayāna schools maintain that nirvana is some unconditioned phenomena, belonging to cessation due to insight.


Astus said:
At the same time, there is nothing to persist either. So, saying that the mind-stream continues on forever is at best a provisional teaching for those afraid of becoming nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is the basis of stating that the supreme cessation is the non-abiding nirvana of buddhas and bodhisattvas. If the purified continuums of buddhas and bodhisattvas do not continue forever, it follows that they must somehow cease. If they must somehow cease, this is an annihilationist position. If you are argue it is merely a self within that continuum that does not cease because it does not exist, this still leaves us with the purified continuum of buddhas and bodhisattvas persisting forever since there is no condition by which such a continuum should cease given that there is no condition by which the continuums of sentient beings, the object of their compassion, will cease.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 19th, 2016 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
Its worth keeping, because, seriously, what's the better alternative? And how do we get there, if you even have an answer to that.
We have to stop careening down this unsustainable path. If we don't, there won't be much a world left for anyone, especially children.
We're talking about different things. You're focusing on the present economic system. I agree with you that the level of waste in our society is unsustainable. We do need to rethink many of our values and norms. I don't think that is accomplished, by say, eliminating the various freedoms that define America, or abandoning the basic model of government we have, or to retreat from our common assumption that we all should all have the space to pursue "happiness". My idea of what ought to be perpetuated is not the economic system.

Malcolm wrote:
Our economic system is predicated on the idea of happiness = property. The implication of this is that property = rights, and that those with less property are less entitled to rights, and therefore, are less entitled to happiness.


Queequeg said:
What we need is a change in thought and assumptions about what the good life is

Malcolm wrote:
First, we have to abandon the idea that property = happiness.


Queequeg said:
Dumping what's good about America because of what's bad is not a realistic approach.

Malcolm wrote:
We need to rewrite the constitution from a biocentric perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Abhidharmasammuvaya, pg. 135

Astus said:
That talks about nirodha, the third noble truth. I meant there nirodhasamapatti, the 9th dhyana. They are not the same.

Malcolm wrote:
The latter leads to the former. The Mahāyāna point is that arhats, when they pass away, enter that equipoise and remain there, since we do not accept that there can be an absolute cessation of the mind. For example, on the next page, Asanga notes that the supreme state of nirodha is the nonabiding nirvana of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas which allows them to continue to benefit sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
There is a something not conditioned, if there weren't the path would be impossible.

Astus said:
I didn't say there is nothing unconditioned. I said that consciousness cannot be unconditioned. It is nirvana that is unconditioned.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Astus, out of curiosity: what do you mean by "consciousness"? Are you using it in the specific context of the skandhas, dhatus and ayatanas, or in the broadest possible sense, to designate all and any possible types of cognition?

Malcolm wrote:
He means the aggregate of consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Astus said:
If it (nirodha) were the same as nirvana, there would be no need to see it with discernment/wisdom. Furthermore, it could not be that one doesn't attain arhatship.

Malcolm wrote:
[4]What is it (nirodha) from the point of view of convention? It is the cessation acquired through the abolition of of the seeds (bijanigraha) by means of worldly paths (laukikamarga). The Blessed One calleds it a "partial Nirvāṇa" (tadaṃśikanirvāna)...

[6] What is its complete state (paripūri)? It is the cessation acquired by those who are no longer in training (aśaikṣa), such as the fruit of arhatship (arhatvaphala).
-- Abhidharmasammuvaya, pg. 135


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


tomschwarz said:
in any case, "exist" is a simple english word, filled with all kinds of meanings, so to speak so concretely about it, we must understand what it means to us, what meaning we want it to have...

Malcolm wrote:
You really don't need to get all that complex about it. Exists means "something which can be established."

tomschwarz said:
))) OK.   But please answer the two questions.  And now a third, what does it mean to establish something?  Again lots of meanings....  ....which one would you like to use hear?  E.g. Donald Trump was established as the Republican Candidate of this year's presidential race.  So that worked.

White Lotus, great point.

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhist parlance, "establish" means to prove something incontrovertibly. So in this sense, conventionally we can say Trump is the Republican nominee, since it accords with conventional perception. But even, so, it won't stand up to ultimate analysis (apart from his toupee, which appears to be the only inherently existent thing in the universe).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
Queequeg said:
Where do you get that?

Sherab Dorje said:
He is talking about how many people globally have to be deprived in regards to their basic needs (of resources) in order for one American to live their lifestyle, to enjoy their level of consumption.  He doesn't mean  actually working for you personally.

Have you ever visited a third world country?

Queequeg said:
I don't know if that's what he was saying.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I was saying that this the number of people in the world per first world citizen, whose labor is required to keep even the poorest of us in the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 18th, 2016 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
I think my view is something like this: this is a pretty good system; as good as any that has ever been organized by human beings, on a scale that is unprecedented.

Malcolm wrote:
Our systems depends on every American having 45,000 people work for them. At the cost of the environment. Our country is the number leading cause of global warming.

Queequeg said:
Where do you get that?

Malcolm wrote:
Some analysis of the world labor cost required to keep our standard of living where it is; right now, I don't recall where I read it.

Queequeg said:
In any event, seriously, people exploiting people is not the real long term concern. We're going to be overwhelmed by automation sooner than later.

Malcolm wrote:
This is still people exploiting people.


Queequeg said:
Its worth keeping, because, seriously, what's the better alternative? And how do we get there, if you even have an answer to that.

Malcolm wrote:
We have to stop careening down this unsustainable path. If we don't, there won't be much a world left for anyone, especially children.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2016 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
I think my view is something like this: this is a pretty good system; as good as any that has ever been organized by human beings, on a scale that is unprecedented.

Malcolm wrote:
Our systems depends on every American having 45,000 people work for them. At the cost of the environment. Our country is the number leading cause of global warming.


Queequeg said:
Its worth trying to keep going.

Malcolm wrote:
At the price listed above, not a chance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2016 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
TRC said:
Firstly, nirodhasamapatti has nothing to do with nirvana. Nirvana is not the cessation of perception and feeling. Secondly, nirodhasamapatti has nothing to do with “commoners”, it is only available to non-returners and above.

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana, as conceived in Hinayāna, is indeed the utter cessation of one's stream based on analysis (pratisamkhyanirodha). Perceptions and feelings are included in everything that ceases. The Sauntrantikas, according to the Kosha, even go so far as the assert that Nirvana is nonexistence.

Nirvana with remainder, of course, is does not involve death. Nirvana without remainder most certainly involves death.

The Mahāyāna criticism of these various positions is well known. No need to repeat it here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 17th, 2016 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:


Queequeg said:
I get why you don't fly the colors. When I fly the colors, its acknowledgement of the good and bad, but also determination to make it better. Its about time we took that symbol back from the yahoos. We should make Woodie Guthrie's anthem our national anthem.

Malcolm wrote:
I just don't think the legacy of the USA has much in which one could justifiably take pride.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The only difference between the two, as I already said, is whether it belongs to an ārya or not. In the case of an ārya, it leads to the elimination of afflictions, in the case of a commoner, it does not.

Astus said:
Both are available only to aryas. However, neither of them are nirvana. And the point is that nirodhasamapatti is not the destination of arhats.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, techincally, nirodhasamapatti and nirvikalpa samadhi are the same, differentiated by whether one is a commoner or a buddha, and the latter is the vajropamasamadhi of a buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


tomschwarz said:
in any case, "exist" is a simple english word, filled with all kinds of meanings, so to speak so concretely about it, we must understand what it means to us, what meaning we want it to have...

Malcolm wrote:
You really don't need to get all that complex about it. Exists means "something which can be established."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Queequeg said:
Letter from a Birmingham Jail is America.

Malcolm wrote:
MLK was murdered by America.

Queequeg said:
Eugene Debs is America.

Malcolm wrote:
Imprisoned by America.

Queequeg said:
Ken Kesey is America.

Malcolm wrote:
Institutionalized by America.

Queequeg said:
Rock and Roll is America.

Malcolm wrote:
Stolen from black people by America.

Just face it, this country's history is one of ethnic cleansing, human trafficking, genocide, ecocide, and wars of aggression, one after another.

There are individuals who have come from America, like MLK, etc., who are worthy of admiration. But on the whole, our track record is pretty appalling.

I would no more hang the stars and stripes on my house than I would the stars and bars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
...damned if I'm going to let these people define the American experience, personally.

Malcolm wrote:
They already have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Astus said:
As for vajropamasamadhi, that is the attainment eliminating all defilements that leads to nirvana (Kosha, vol 3, p 981-3, 1020-1021; Samuccaya p 174), so it is different from nirodhasamapatti that does not necessarily lead to the elimination of all defilements.

Malcolm wrote:
The only difference between the two, as I already said, is whether it belongs to an ārya or not. In the case of an ārya, it leads to the elimination of afflictions, in the case of a commoner, it does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
So the magical apparitions magically appear and do all the dharma actions, like build centers, stupas, translate texts, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Since that mindstream lacks the slightest partiality, there is no basis for a singularity;
because there is no partiality in that, all the infinite worlds are my body. 
My body also appears as the infinite worlds and bodies of living beings.
The mind and traces are not the same, not different, and are very hard to investigate.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra

Crazywisdom said:
So everything that appears including dharma actions belong to the Buddha's kayas?

Malcolm wrote:
The phenomena of āryas and commoners arise from one’s mindstream and do not exist anywhere else. 
Also, that diversity in the realms of the six beings is one’s samadhi.
—— Mañjuśrīmitra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
So who's teaching Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
The magical apparitions of the teacher, of course.

Crazywisdom said:
So the magical apparitions magically appear and do all the dharma actions, like build centers, stupas, translate texts, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Since that mindstream lacks the slightest partiality, there is no basis for a singularity;
because there is no partiality in that, all the infinite worlds are my body. 
My body also appears as the infinite worlds and bodies of living beings.
The mind and traces are not the same, not different, and are very hard to investigate.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
And how does such a one uphold a Buddha's vow to benefit sentient beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Since the awakening of the sugata does not exist, his magical apparitions appear to the deluded, similar to an illusion.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra

Crazywisdom said:
So who's teaching Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
The magical apparitions of the teacher, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
This isn't nihilism because...?

And one shouldn't perform auspicious actions for beings within the view bc...?

Malcolm wrote:
It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing.
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra

Crazywisdom said:
And how does such a one uphold a Buddha's vow to benefit sentient beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Since the awakening of the sugata does not exist, his magical apparitions appear to the deluded, similar to an illusion.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Interdependent actions and fruits?

Malcolm wrote:
Do not abandon or dwell in any Dharma at all, with or without doubt. 
Since the meditator and the dharmadhātu do not exist, there is nothing to doubt and there is nothing to perceive as ultimate.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra

Crazywisdom said:
This isn't nihilism because...?

And one shouldn't perform auspicious actions for beings within the view bc...?

Malcolm wrote:
It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing.
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


muni said:
If there is a complete nonexistence, it is nihilism, which is not possible by the union of the two truths.

:

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths do not exist, so how can they be in union?

Crazywisdom said:
Interdependent actions and fruits?

Malcolm wrote:
Do not abandon or dwell in any Dharma at all, with or without doubt. 
Since the meditator and the dharmadhātu do not exist, there is nothing to doubt and there is nothing to perceive as ultimate.
-- Mañjuśrīmitra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Cognitive obscurations, how can they be?
Content:


muni said:
If there is a complete nonexistence, it is nihilism, which is not possible by the union of the two truths.

:

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths do not exist, so how can they be in union?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Rakz said:
But if it did end then Buddhas would too enter into the samadhi of cessation like they already do temporarily after the universe gets destroyed.

Astus said:
Nirvana is not nirodhasamapatti (samadhi of cessation). Otherwise yes, that is one of the interpretations, and that's why bodhisattvas are said to delay the attainment of nirvana.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is, the only difference between vajropama-samadhi and nirodhasamapatti is whether one is an ārya or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
Many of the Tejano elite backed the abortive attempt to set up an independent Republic of the North in 1813. Later, Tejanos were ardent supporters of the successful Mexican revolt against Spain in 1821, only to grow as unhappy with Mexican rule as with Spanish rule.
"Norteñios who had an iffy relationship with the Mexican Empire"


Malcolm wrote:
I don't see how these do anything but reinforce what I was saying. There was already native & norteñios discontent. Maybe I misread your statement, but your comment sounded like it was nothing but anglos making a land grab.[/quote]

The state of Texas was a result primarily an Anglo land grab.

Admin_PC said:
It should also be noted that not all natives were indigenous to this area. The Comanches in particular migrated here after the anglo settlers.

So when you read about the Rangers fighting Comanches, it should be understood that the Comanches often raided outside their territory in a general migration south...

Malcolm wrote:
They were clan based nomads. Their territory was always fluid.



Texas History Online said:
Call Houston a drunk if you want to, but he did advise against joining the Civil War: Many Texans considered the election of Abraham Lincoln to the presidency (November 1860) as a threat to slavery. They urged Governor Sam Houston to call a convention of the people to determine what course of action the state should take. Houston, devoted both to Texas and the Union, paid little heed to these requests, refusing to take any step that might aid secession. The demands for a convention increased, however, with the secession of South Carolina in December 1860 and the calling of state secession conventions in Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and Louisiana in early January. A group of secessionist leaders, including O. M. Roberts, John S. (Rip) Ford, George M. Flournoy, and William P. Rogers, issued an address to the people calling for the election of delegates to a state Secession Convention in early January. Houston attempted to forestall the convention by calling a special session of the legislature and recommending that it refuse to recognize the convention. Instead, the legislature gave approval to the convention, on the condition that the people ratify its outcome by a final vote.

The convention, which assembled in Austin on January 28, 1861, was dominated by secessionists. On February 1 the delegates adopted an ordinance of secession by a vote of 166 to 8. This ordinance was approved by the voters of the state, 46,153 to 14,747, on February 23. The convention reassembled in early March, declared Texas out of the Union, and adopted a measure uniting the state with other Southern states in the newly formed Confederate States of America. Governor Houston, who refused to recognize the authority of the convention to take this action, refused to take an oath of allegiance to the new government, whereupon the convention declared the office of governor vacant and elevated Lieutenant Governor Edward Clark to the position. President Lincoln offered to send troops to assist Houston if he would resist the convention, but Houston rejected the offer rather than bring on civil conflict within the state. He retired to his home in Huntsville, where he died on July 26, 1863.

Malcolm wrote:
It appears he both rejected the Confederacy, as well as rejected help from Lincoln to restore order.

Anyway, my main point still stands, "I like where I live too. This does not blind me to the fact that I live here by virtue of the fact that English Settlers began a program of ethnic cleansing and genocide against native people beginning in the 17th century", etc. This is as true of Texas as it is true of everywhere else in the United States and Canada, i.e, the wherever there was an Anglo Hegemony. The Spanish hegemony in Mexico, etc., has its own analysis and problems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Texas was an incursion by slavers into what was a underpopulated Mestizo enclave made of largely of Norteñios who had an iffy relationship with the Mexican Empire.

There was no Texas revolution, in others words. It was, from the beginning, a land grab by white settlers.

Admin_PC said:
Gross mischaracterization based on a total rewriting of history, in favor of pushing an apologetic narrative.
That's not how it went down.
http://www.houstonculture.org/hispanic/alamo.html
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/native-texan/article/Tejanos-played-key-role-in-Texas-Revolution-5413847.php
https://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/archives/newsarch/tejano.html
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/tejanoorigins.htm
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/tejanopatriots.htm As a proportion of the population, the active participation of Hispanic native and immigrant residents in the struggle for independence of Texas from Spain and Mexico was equal to or greater in specific battles than that of resident immigrants from the United States of the North--Don Guillermo

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is exactly how it went down, as your own documents show:

"underpopulated Mestizo enclave" and "slavers (pro-slavery whites like Sam Houston)"

Admin_PC said:
" ln 1836, about 4,000 Tejanos lived north of the Nueces River, where settlement was concentrated. Anglos numbered about 35,000, most of them fairly recent arrivals from the United States, Poyo said.

Malcolm wrote:
"Norteñios who had an iffy relationship with the Mexican Empire"

Admin_PC said:
There had been a pattern of resistance to the rule of central government from Mexico City since the Spanish period of the 1770s, he said. That feeling predated the dissatisfaction with the Anglos by 50 years, according to Poyo.

Malcolm wrote:
And:
Many of the Tejano elite backed the abortive attempt to set up an independent Republic of the North in 1813. Later, Tejanos were ardent supporters of the successful Mexican revolt against Spain in 1821, only to grow as unhappy with Mexican rule as with Spanish rule.
Dunbar-Ortiz writes:
The Republic of Mexico opened a door to US domination by granting land to Anglo immigrants. During the first decade of Mexican independence, some thirty thousand Anglo-American farmers and plantation owners, along with their slaves, poured into Texas, receiving development land grants. By the time Texas became a US state in 1845, Anglo settlers numbered 160,000.18 Mexico abolished slavery in 1829, which affected the Anglo-American settlers’ quest for wealth in building plantations worked by enslaved Africans. They lobbied the Mexican government for a reversal of the ban and gained only a one-year extension to settle their affairs and free their bonded workers— the government refused to legalize slavery. The settlers decided to secede from Mexico, initiating the famous and mythologized 1836 Battle of the Alamo, where the mercenaries James Bowie and Davy Crockett and slave owner William Travis were killed. Although technically an Anglo-American loss, the siege of the Alamo served to stir Anglo patriotic passions, and within a month at the decisive Battle of San Jacinto, Mexico handed over the province. This was a great victory for the Andrew Jackson administration, for Jackson’s brother, Mason, who was one of the Texas planters, and especially for the alcoholic settler-warrior hero Sam Houston. The former governor of Tennessee, Houston was made commander in chief of the Texas army and president of the new “Texas republic,” which he helped guide to US statehood in 1845. One of the first acts of the pro-slavery independent government was to establish a counterinsurgency force that— as its name, the Texas Rangers, suggests— followed the “American way of war” in destroying Indigenous towns, eliminating Native nations in Texas, pursuing ethnic cleansing, and suppressing protest from Tejanos, former Mexican citizens.

Dunbar-Ortiz, Roxanne (2014-09-16). An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States (ReVisioning American History) (pp. 126-127). Beacon Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
How? When there were indigenous tribes & people of majority indigenous blood making up both the Mexican side in the  Mexican Revolution & the Texas side in the  Texas Revolution?

Malcolm wrote:
Texas was an incursion by slavers into what was a underpopulated Mestizo enclave made of largely of Norteñios who had an iffy relationship with the Mexican Empire.

There was no Texas revolution, in others words. It was, from the beginning, a land grab by white settlers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
But being accused of "American exceptionalism" just because I happen to like a few things about where I live .


Malcolm wrote:
I like where I live too. This does not blind me to the fact that I live here by virtue of the fact that English Settlers began a program of ethnic cleansing and genocide against native people beginning in the 17th century:
“REDSKINS”
Indigenous people continued to resist by burning settlements and killing and capturing settlers. As an incentive to recruit fighters, colonial authorities introduced a program of scalp hunting that became a permanent and long-lasting element of settler warfare against Indigenous nations. During the Pequot War, Connecticut and Massachusetts colonial officials had offered bounties initially for the heads of murdered Indigenous people and later for only their scalps, which were more portable in large numbers. But scalp hunting became routine only in the mid-1670s, following an incident on the northern frontier of the Massachusetts colony. The practice began in earnest in 1697 when settler Hannah Dustin, having murdered ten of her Abenaki captors in a nighttime escape, presented their ten scalps to the Massachusetts General Assembly and was rewarded with bounties for two men, two women, and six children.

Dustin soon became a folk hero among New England settlers. Scalp hunting became a lucrative commercial practice. The settler authorities had hit upon a way to encourage settlers to take off on their own or with a few others to gather scalps, at random, for the reward money. “In the process,” John Grenier points out, “they established the large-scale privatization of war within American frontier communities.” Although the colonial government in time raised the bounty for adult male scalps, lowered that for adult females, and eliminated that for Indigenous children under ten, the age and gender of victims were not easily distinguished by their scalps nor checked carefully. What is more, the scalp hunter could take the children captive and sell them into slavery. These practices erased any remaining distinction between Indigenous combatants and noncombatants and introduced a market for Indigenous slaves. Bounties for Indigenous scalps were honored even in absence of war. Scalps and Indigenous children became means of exchange, currency, and this development may even have created a black market. Scalp hunting was not only a profitable privatized enterprise but also a means to eradicate or subjugate the Indigenous population of the Anglo-American Atlantic seaboard. The settlers gave a name to the mutilated and bloody corpses they left in the wake of scalp-hunts: redskins.
Dunbar-Ortiz, Roxanne (2014-09-16). An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States (ReVisioning American History) (pp. 64-65). Beacon Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
I'm sorry you neighbors from Oceana hate us so much, but maybe you should save your vitriol for when we actually do something wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
White people in OZ are us, and they are still brutalizing indigenous people in that country.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
I would hardly say its "history is nothing more nor less than" its atrocities.

Malcolm wrote:
Our history, all the things we imagine are positive about the United States, is predicated upon on our systematic practices of ethnic cleansing, genocide and human trafficking, for example, Texas, California, etc.

Perhaps you can give some examples of the positive things about the US which are not predicated upon this legacy?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 16th, 2016 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
No, merely mentioning pride in our country...

Malcolm wrote:
As an American, I see no reason at all to be proud of the United States of America. Its history is nothing more nor less than a history of European colonial expansion made possible by ethnic cleansing, human trafficking, and genocide.

Required reading:

1492 and 1493
The People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn
The Indigenous People's History of United States by Roxanna Dunbar-Ortiz
The new Jim Crow by Michell Alexander

Etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:


Admin_PC said:
"In God we Trust"

Malcolm wrote:
...was only adopted as the US motto in 1956.

Admin_PC said:
All of this, I now think, is not quite right. “Deism” in its own day referred not to a superficial theological doctrine but to a comprehensive intellectual tradition that ranged freely across the terrain we now associate with ethics, political theory, metaphysics, the philosophy of mind, and epistemology. It was an astonishingly coherent and systematic body of thought, closer to a way of being than any particular dogma, and it retained its essential elements over a span of centuries, not decades. In origin and substance, deism was neither British nor Christian, as the conventional view supposes, but largely ancient, pagan, and continental, and it spread in America far beyond the educated elite. Although America’s revolutionary deists lavished many sincere expressions of adoration upon their deity, deism is in fact functionally indistinguishable from what we would now call “pantheism”; and pantheism is really just a pretty word for atheism. While deism could often be associated with moderation in politics, it served principally to advance a system of thought that was revolutionary in its essence and effects. This essentially atheistic and revolutionary aspect of deism, I further contend, is central to any credible explanation of the revolutionary dimension of the American Revolution. In a word, America’s founders were philosophical radicals.

Malcolm wrote:
Stewart, Matthew (2014-07-01). Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic (pp. 5-6). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Karma_Yeshe said:
To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe.

Karma_Yeshe said:
What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?

Malcolm wrote:
Lack of provenance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Rakz said:
True. The ultimate destination in Mahayana is cessation as well once samsara is emptied out.


Malcolm wrote:
No, because there is still Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha, where the sambhogakāya enjoys (bhoga) the dharma together with (sam) the two retinues; the retinue he emanates, and the retinue of bodhisattvas who take birth there.

Thus, nonabiding nirvana is the goal of Mahāyāna, i.e., a nirvana where one never abides in extremes of samsara or nirvana.

Crazywisdom said:
But the commentary on the Guhyagarbha says Samantabhadra's retinue is a self-reflection.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is the retinue of his own nature. But there is also a retinue which is not his own nature, i.e., bodhisattvas on the irreversible stages who take birth there.

It also depends on which Akaniṣṭha you are talking about, Dharmakāya level or Sambhogakāya level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on which Tibetans. The Sakyapas, especially the Ngorpas, certainly have the opposite attitude.
Just to add to this point — much of the polemics in Tibet are precisely about who is more faithful to the India tradition and who has departed from the Indian model.

Crazywisdom said:
Again I point out they are riffing about the monastic Tantra of late Indian Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are mainly arguing about how to properly interpret the Nalanda tantric tradition circa 1000 CE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Let's assume there are no sentient beings and no bodhisattvas, just Buddhas. There would be no point of form kayas. Compassion would be meaningless. What samadhi would a Buddha have then? I think it would have to be cessation.

Rakz said:
True. The ultimate destination in Mahayana is cessation as well once samsara is emptied out.


Malcolm wrote:
No, because there is still Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha, where the sambhogakāya enjoys (bhoga) the dharma together with (sam) the two retinues; the retinue he emanates, and the retinue of bodhisattvas who take birth there.

Thus, nonabiding nirvana is the goal of Mahāyāna, i.e., a nirvana where one never abides in extremes of samsara or nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Remember the Tibetans want you to think their books are definitive and the Indian one's are provisional.

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on which Tibetans. The Sakyapas, especially the Ngorpas, certainly have the opposite attitude.
Just to add to this point — much of the polemics in Tibet are precisely about who is more faithful to the India tradition and who has departed from the Indian model.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 15th, 2016 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Michael James on Ramana
Content:
dreambow said:
Many people find Ramana Maharshi inspirational.

Malcolm wrote:
Great. Let them find him inspirational on the nonduality forum.

Karma Dorje said:
Yes, florin can't you see that this is a forum for feminist ranting about Asian culture?! Stay on topic, man!

Down with the patriarchy!

Malcolm wrote:
If it was a matriarchy, one would have to rant about that, too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Karma_Yeshe said:
To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Remember the Tibetans want you to think their books are definitive and the Indian one's are provisional.

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on which Tibetans. The Sakyapas, especially the Ngorpas, certainly have the opposite attitude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I don't agree the Indian tantras are provisional in meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, we can disagree on one whether gsar ma tantras, as well as mahāyoga tantras are provisional. Like everything, YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That does not mean they are of no interest. They are. But I don't have time to read everything.

Losal Samten said:
How many Dzogchen tantras would you guesstimate we have preserved?

Malcolm wrote:
14 volumes in the Rnying ma rgyud 'bum alone, not to mention hundreds of tantras in various terma cycles that have been revealed over the centuries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 10:57 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Sure Dzogchen texts have their own way of explaining stuff. Great. But that's all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Dzogchen tantras and texts explain their own approach to awakening. To me, Dzogchen tantras and texts are much more interesting then gsar ma tantra (as well as tantras of mahāyoga), because, including the Guhyagarbha, those tantras are provisional in meaning. That does not mean they are of no interest. They are. But I don't have time to read everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Empowerments in different yanas
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
The DI is not just in the syllable itself?

Which parts are which, awareness expression, expressive power of awareness, initiation of the display of awareness, etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Any direct introduction possesses three lineages: the aural lineage, the symbolic lineage and the lineage of the transcendent state.

You must be able to understand the first two in order to grasp the meaning, which is contained in the third.

All of this constitutes empowerment of the potentiality of vidyā (rig pa'i rtsal dbang). This is why the Syllableless Tantra states states:
[T]he dharmakāya is encountered in the intimate instruction.
The dharmakāya is the lineage of the transcendent state; the intimate instruction is the aural lineage and the symbolic lineage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
But any kind of historical revisionism, or trying to wrap Dharma up in trigger warnings and safe spaces is going to introduce as much contention as it resolves.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.



maybay said:
Buddhism is firstly a refuge from suffering. If people think they can start dumping on everyone else the moment they walk through the door then it ceases to be that refuge.

Malcolm wrote:
We need to understand how Buddhism at present is failing Buddhadharma as a refuge, that is the point. Buddhism and Buddhadharma are two different things.


maybay said:
They need to understand basic decency and give whoever's running the show the benefit of the doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, the classical texts say the opposite. Students get the benefit of the doubt. Teachers should be held up to rigorous scrutiny.


maybay said:
There's no need to go charging off on some global movement.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Empowerments in different yanas
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
I understand how language is limited to causation. Malcolm, you have just used "result" to try to convey the opposite idea.

But what is the difference between what you have just described as a pointing, and the usual tantric empowerment?

Malcolm wrote:
Tantric empowerments only grant one a conceptual idea. They start with the idea that there is are aggregates which in fact need to be transformed into buddha families, for example, like applying an elixir to a base metal to transform it into gold.

Dzogchen starts with the idea that there is nothing to transform, but maybe, one needs to do a little dusting.

PuerAzaelis said:
I've experienced a few of both now.

If both are non-linguistic, what is the difference?

And does this mean I could pick a stranger off the street and she would "get" the pointing out the same as the sangha old timers?

Malcolm wrote:
Who said they are non-linguistic?

In a direct introduction, one either understands what the guru explains, or not. In case of the latter, then there are indirect methods.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Help identifying a star.
Content:
maybay said:
Kalacakra uses the tropical zodiac. The Jyotish system with lunar mansions based on sidereal zodiac is broken.

Malcolm wrote:
The Kalacakra root tantra uses a tropical zodiac, but the Vimalaprabha reintroduced the broken Siddhanta system, which is why the Tibetan calendar is so damn crazy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
I understand how language is limited to causation. Malcolm, you have just used "result" to try to convey the opposite idea.

But what is the difference between what you have just described as a pointing, and the usual tantric empowerment?

Malcolm wrote:
Tantric empowerments only grant one a conceptual idea. They start with the idea that there  are aggregates which in fact need to be transformed into buddha families, for example, like applying an elixir to a base metal to transform it into gold.

Dzogchen starts with the idea that there is nothing to transform, just something to point out. As Vimalamitra states in Buddhahood in this Life:
If it is objected, “If afflictions are liberated into dharmatā without antidotes, there is no need for purification on the path. Otherwise, liberation would require no effort,” for what reason would those who do not understand be liberated? Asserting that those who understand are liberated merely by recognizing concepts as dharmatā is the fruit of one’s wishes. As such, in order to recognize that concepts are dharmatā, the intimate instructions of the guru are important.
Supporting this perspective, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:
ecause it exists to be explained,
the result is attained through the explanation.
If not explained, how can there be liberation?
There are no signs in the dharmas of the basis,
no grasping to the dharmas of the path,
and no attainment of the dharmatā of the result.
The basis of sentient beings and the basis of buddhahood
is definitely differentiated by a sole difference.
For what reason is there a sole difference?
Why is it called “the sole difference?”
The basis of buddhahood is pristine consciousness;
the basis of sentient-beinghood is not pristine consciousness.
When both the pristine state (ye) and the consciousness (shes pa) of
it are combined,
it is the sublime transcendent state of the buddhas.
Therefore, what other differences are there?
M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Norwegian said:
Crazywisdom,

In Dzogchen there is gzhi, lam, and 'bras bu, in other words base, path, and fruit. This is something Dzogchen teachers teach all the time.

There has to be a base, and a path, and a fruit, because it is a complete path lacking nothing. Otherwise if Dzogchen was only the result, it'd just begin and end with "the fruit", but that's really not the case.

Crazywisdom said:
I know what they say. Im challenging the conceptual regimen. Let's look at your statement. It contains some Tibetan words. Looks so scholarly. But wait, I see a non sequitur: there has to be a base, path and fruit because it is a complete path lacking nothing. This is like poetry, not reasoning.

Then you contradict Malcom, bc he said the result does not arise from a cause. So by his statements the result results the result. There might as well be a result, a result and a result. Because the base, path and result are inseparable, by the terms of that teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Basis path and result has a different meaning in Dzogchen.

The basis here is not a cause, it is something one did not know.

The path is recognizing what that basis is, based on the teacher's instructions which result in direct perception.

The result is fully experiencing the qualities of that basis.

Thus, Dzogchen is the result that does not arise from a cause.

For example, let us imagine that we are living on an island of gold. But we have no idea what gold is, and so we make various discriminations between things on that island, liking this one, disliking that one, not recognizing their nature is the same.

Someone explains to us what gold is, and then tells us to look past our conceptual discriminations to see what is actually there in our direct perception, i.e., gold.

In the end, when we have ascertained that everything on the island is gold, then we have nothing left to do.

This both what "the result that does not arise from a cause" means, and also what the basis, path and result are in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
This citation comes from one of the Aural Lineages of Vairocana in the the Pellucid Transcendent State of Samantabhadra (Kun tu bzang po dgongs pa zang thal).

There is a reason why Khyentse Wangpo proclaims the Gongpa Zangthal the most profound of all the snying thigs.

amanitamusc said:
There is a commentary in English on Gongpa Zangthal translated by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche.

Crazywisdom said:
It's only about ngondro


Malcolm wrote:
You mean the five nails commentary, yes there is that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
I thought the 9 yana scheme came up in the terma group. What text is this quote from? For me pith instructions are experiential lessons about the tantras which are taught by the Buddha. They don't come from no where.

Malcolm wrote:
This citation comes from one of the Aural Lineages of Vairocana in the the Pellucid Transcendent State of Samantabhadra (Kun tu bzang po dgongs pa zang thal).

There is a reason why Khyentse Wangpo proclaims the Gongpa Zangthal the most profound of all the snying thigs.

amanitamusc said:
There is a commentary in English on Gongpa Zangthal translated by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly.

http://www.wandel-verlag.de/en/kun-bzang-dgongs-pa-zang-thal-boundless-vision/

amanitamusc said:
This book contains the Tibetan original text, only in Tibetan language! As appendix it contains an outline of the different chapters contained in the text by Tulku Thondup, in English language. The book has been thoroughly edited and put in chapters following the outline for better accessibility.

Malcolm wrote:
This text is a commentary on a short text in volume 5.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It's not a coma bc one can come out of it when one pleases.

Malcolm wrote:
One must be roused from it. Once one enters arhat's final samadhi of cessation, one is stuck in it forever unless a Buddha intervenes.

Crazywisdom said:
The theras have a different way. They say you go into it with the intention to be in that for some period of time. Then one comes out of it at the set time.


Malcolm wrote:
This is while one is still in this life. After an arhat's body breaks up, they enter into a samadhi of cessation that is, for all intents and purposes, a coma, a state of nescience until they are roused from it by a buddha. Thus say many Mahāyāna sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
I thought the 9 yana scheme came up in the terma group. What text is this quote from? For me pith instructions are experiential lessons about the tantras which are taught by the Buddha. They don't come from no where.

Malcolm wrote:
This citation comes from one of the Aural Lineages of Vairocana in the the Pellucid Transcendent State of Samantabhadra (Kun tu bzang po dgongs pa zang thal).

There is a reason why Khyentse Wangpo proclaims the Gongpa Zangthal the most profound of all the snying thigs.

Crazywisdom said:
So it's from Gonpa Zangthal?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
This doesn't say what's in the 9, but seems to say, beginning with a direct introduction, a non path begins. And GP is calling it a yana as in Karma Linpa's text.

Tilopa also says the path is no path. I suppose Togal, etc., is in this category outside the vehicle concept. I don't buy that. At minimum it's a quasi-path, bc it has all the markings of a path: something one intends to do for a spiritual purpose, one does a thing, like get into position for that purpose, the path has signposts, the end is clearly marked. If there were a method to go direct to the end, that would be the immediate non-path.


Malcolm wrote:
Śrī Siṃha again states:
The system of the nine yanas assert buddhahood is attained through gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations. The Pellucid Transcendent State of Samantabhadra asserts that buddhahood cannot be obtained through gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations through samsaric impediments. If one wishes to attain buddhahood, three recognitions are necessary. Those are: the result does not arise from a cause; buddhahood does not arise from mind; intimate instruction do not arise from scriptures.


Crazywisdom said:
I thought the 9 yana scheme came up in the terma group. What text is this quote from? For me pith instructions are experiential lessons about the tantras which are taught by the Buddha. They don't come from no where.

Malcolm wrote:
This citation comes from one of the Aural Lineages of Vairocana in the the Pellucid Transcendent State of Samantabhadra (Kun tu bzang po dgongs pa zang thal).

There is a reason why Khyentse Wangpo proclaims the Gongpa Zangthal the most profound of all the snying thigs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 14th, 2016 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It's not a coma bc one can come out of it when one pleases.

Malcolm wrote:
One must be roused from it. Once one enters arhat's final samadhi of cessation, one is stuck in it forever unless a Buddha intervenes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
maybay said:
What is an eon to someone experiencing nirvana?


Malcolm wrote:
What is the difference between this and a coma? Nothing, actually.

Crazywisdom said:
Nirvana is the highest happiness. Coma is a dead mind.


Malcolm wrote:
The samadhi of cessation is a coma, it is a false nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Anyway the extra secret cycle is also atiyoga. Any path can be categorized. So it's a division of Ati.

Malcolm wrote:
It can be called that, but in general, ati yoga is a category which characterizes the indirect approach through the nine yānas.

Dzogchen stands outside the nine yānas. Śrī Siṃha states:
All Dharmas of the nine yānas are Dharmas of the path, but cannot attain the result. When the pellucid transcendent state (dgongs pa zang thal) of the victors is shown, it is impossible that all sentient beings (to whom it is shown) will not fully awaken

Crazywisdom said:
This doesn't say what's in the 9, but seems to say, beginning with a direct introduction, a non path begins. And GP is calling it a yana as in Karma Linpa's text.

Tilopa also says the path is no path. I suppose Togal, etc., is in this category outside the vehicle concept. I don't buy that. At minimum it's a quasi-path, bc it has all the markings of a path: something one intends to do for a spiritual purpose, one does a thing, like get into position for that purpose, the path has signposts, the end is clearly marked. If there were a method to go direct to the end, that would be the immediate non-path.


Malcolm wrote:
Śrī Siṃha again states:
The system of the nine yanas assert buddhahood is attained through gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations. The Pellucid Transcendent State of Samntabhadra asserts that buddhahood cannot be obtained through gathering accumulations and purifying obscurations through samsaric impediments. If one wishes to attain buddhahood, three recognitions are necessary. Those are: the result does not arise from a cause; buddhahood does not arise from mind; intimate instruction do not arise from scriptures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Dzogchen is the result. It's cant be a path.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is also a Dzogchen path, because it is yāna, and because the basis and the result are different.

Crazywisdom said:
Anyway the extra secret cycle is also atiyoga. Any path can be categorized. So it's a division of Ati.

Malcolm wrote:
It can be called that, but in general, ati yoga is a category which characterizes the indirect approach through the nine yānas.

Dzogchen stands outside the nine yānas. Śrī Siṃha states:
All Dharmas of the nine yānas are Dharmas of the path, but cannot attain the result. When the pellucid transcendent state (dgongs pa zang thal) of the victors is shown, it is impossible that all sentient beings (to whom it is shown) will not fully awaken


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are referring to upādāna-skandhas? Anupādāna, non-addictive, simple means that these aggregates are not a cause for future rebirth. There is no implication that they are not regarded as being existent and so on. All that is being implied is that śrāvakas recognize that there is no person (pudgala) in the aggregates and therefore the aggregates are are longer addictive (upādāna).

Astus said:
Upādāna is the support, the fuel, and without it there is nothing to rely on, no burning. Since the aggregates are still there without clinging, at least until complete extinction, it can be said that they exist. On the other hand, because there is no identification nor appropriation (me, mine), there is no reliance on physical or mental appearances, hence no view clung to (diṭṭhupādāna), no attachment to the extreme of existence or non-existence. What is the basis then for any cognitive obscuration?



Malcolm wrote:
Just because there is no view regarding the person, does not mean that there does not still remain views regarding dharmas. Also, as pointed out, Arhats do not realize emptiness free from all four extremes of proliferation. Why? They realize only the emptiness of the person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically, the difference is that Atiyoga is the indirect path; Dzogchen is the direct path.

Crazywisdom said:
Dzogchen is the result. It's cant be a path.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is also a Dzogchen path, because it is yāna, and because the basis and the result are different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not so. When we say that "Arhats realize the selfless of the aggregates," in fact they do not realize the selflessness of the aggregates themselves, rather, only the selflessness of the person imputed on the aggregates.

Astus said:
That is the usual definition of their attainment, that they take the aggregates real but not any self. Or in other words, they differentiate aggregates with attachment and aggregates without attachment, where the latter is considered the final attainment. Now, if they are not attached to the aggregates, then they cannot be attached to any view, because views are concepts, and concepts are within the aggregates.

Malcolm wrote:
You are referring to upādāna-skandhas? Anupādāna, non-addictive, simple means that these aggregates are not a cause for future rebirth. There is no implication that they are not regarded as being existent and so on. All that is being implied is that śrāvakas recognize that there is no person (pudgala) in the aggregates and therefore the aggregates are are longer addictive (upādāna).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect question. My assertion is that our present institutions are hierarchical in so far as they maintain a patriarchal hierarchy, which is the present antithesis of equality and freedom.

DGA said:
Very good.  Then what would future institutions that do not maintain a patriarchal hierarchy, but do support equal and free participation, look like?  how would such institutions function for purposes of Dharma activity?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, for example, we need to ditch the rules that subordinate female ordinands to male ordinands; we need to remove the rules that prevent senior bhikṣunis from acting as full upādhyāyas for men and women alike; we need to eliminate probationary or śikasamana ordination for women ordinands; and this is just a start.

We need a global Buddhist truth and reconciliation movement to openly confront and resolve sexist, racist and classist tropes and images in Buddhism and Buddhist culture.

etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically, the difference is that Atiyoga is the indirect path; Dzogchen is the direct path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
You made an important qualification though "and that is all you are allowed to do". If a person can extend themselves without shirking their duties, then why not. The problem is that once someone has tasted another life (which with television is inevitable), duty is always going to look like a jail sentence, and they will either leave it undone, work themselves into the ground with duties and study, or they will live hating their duties and themselves. The doctrine being propagandised is one of fundamental inadequacy, the solution for which is to work harder. Under these conditions Dharma practice is impossible. Balance and contentment are an uphill battle.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is a certainly a patriarchal approach to Dharma, based on hierarchy and submission, rather than equality and freedom. The former works well for institutions. The later works well for people who wish liberation in this life or the bardo.

DGA said:
This leaves us with the question:  what use is there for Dharma institutions of different kinds for the purpose of supporting people who wish liberation in this life or the bardo?  (recognizing that the answer to this question may depend on the kind of institution one has in mind, and the needs of those people)

my point is that, in Malcolm's formulation here, institutions and liberation seem to be terms in opposition.  is that necessarily so?  if not, how not?  is it possible to imagine and build Dharma institutions that are nonpatriarchal, democratic, and functional?  if so, what would such institutions look like--how would they be organized, &c?

Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect question. My assertion is that our present institutions are hierarchical in so far as they maintain a patriarchal hierarchy, which is the present antithesis of equality and freedom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 13th, 2016 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
You made an important qualification though "and that is all you are allowed to do". If a person can extend themselves without shirking their duties, then why not. The problem is that once someone has tasted another life (which with television is inevitable), duty is always going to look like a jail sentence, and they will either leave it undone, work themselves into the ground with duties and study, or they will live hating their duties and themselves. The doctrine being propagandised is one of fundamental inadequacy, the solution for which is to work harder. Under these conditions Dharma practice is impossible. Balance and contentment are an uphill battle.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is a certainly a patriarchal approach to Dharma, based on hierarchy and submission, rather than equality and freedom. The former works well for institutions. The later works well for people who wish liberation in this life or the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 8:07 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Sure. No-one wants to do anyone else's washing up, because, while CEOs are all reading books on "servant leadership", women are being told that washing and cooking for others is a degrading chore, rather than a valuable, dignified, and rewarding experience.

Malcolm wrote:
"...cooking for others is a degrading chore, rather than a valuable, dignified, and rewarding experience" is a degrading chore when that is what your life is confined to, and that is all you are allowed to do. It is "a valuable, dignified, and rewarding experience," when you decide to cook out of choice.


maybay said:
I enjoyed cooking for my tenant very much, and I enjoyed teaching her even more. But eventually she feels [my guess:] that she is getting into debt with me, while she feels challenged to be worthy of such service, and since all she can really do for me personally is the dishes, then it gets too much and she bails out and she decides that while we live together we will not share and care about each other.

Malcolm wrote:
That has everything to do you with, and not much to do with her. As far as I can tell, you are engaged in a lot of projection.

maybay said:
And yet the messages she's getting about the glorious age of women is telling her that that's not OK, that it would be taking a lower role in the hierarch

Malcolm wrote:
No, she is being told that she has choice and agency, and that men need to participate more in the unpaid, unrecognized labor of maintaining a home.

maybay said:
The problem with this new situation is they will have to work harder and earn a greater salary to enjoy such independence, and for that they must submit themselves to a bloody-minded system that couldn't care less about their individuality, which ironically is not a problem for women.

Malcolm wrote:
More sexist silliness. It makes me seriously question whether you understand that women are human beings also.


maybay said:
The problem for women was never a lack of independence. It was being different from other women, ie jealousy.

Malcolm wrote:
Even more sexist silliness.



maybay said:
The problem for men is that the bloody-minded system is strengthened by women's independence from their local communities, and it becomes even more bloody-minded against individuals and local cultures...which then becomes a problem for women.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahaha, this is even more sexist silliness.


maybay said:
The result is a work environment that is so inhospitable as to be a factory of pathological behaviour.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, Roger Ailes.

maybay said:
And so while women emancipate themselves out of love and into what is effectively an Arhat-like existence,

Malcolm wrote:
Huh?


maybay said:
we have growing social discontent, and corporate and political malfeasance caused by morons that puts everyone at risk.

Malcolm wrote:
And walla, we have a total non-sequitor posing as rationality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Vajrayana is the best and it's all Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I agree. It is a matter of differences in approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Btw, it is often not understood, especially by people coming from gsar ma backgrounds, like cloudburst, that Atiyoga of the nine yānas is one thing, but the Great Perfection is in fact something else, beyond Atiyoga.

DGA said:
Malcolm, would it be possible for you to elaborate on this point a bit for the purpose of clear discussion?  i.e., what is the content of this distinction between Dzogchen and Atiyoga?


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN discusses this in Crystal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Astus said:
Since all appearances that occur are one of the five aggregates and six areas, there cannot be anything an arhat grasps as self or belonging to a self. Furthermore, belief in any kind of substance can occur only in the aggregates, and since no aggregate is grasped, no view can be grasped either.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so. When we say that "Arhats realize the selfless of the aggregates," in fact they do not realize the selflessness of the aggregates themselves, rather, only the selflessness of the person imputed on the aggregates. Gorampa points out:

Now then, if it is thought that one will be able to give up the grasping true existence of grasping the true existence in the aggregates with the unimpeded path of the śrāvakas, since apprehending the non-existence of true existence of the aggregates is not the main point, but apprehending the non-existence of the true existence of the person is the main point, there is no error. Likewise, since apprehending the non-existence of the true existence of the apprehended outer objects is the main point of the unimpeded path of the path of seeing of the pratyekabuddhas, it is possible to give up the grasping true existence of grasping the true existence in outer apprehended objects, but it is not possible to give up the knowledge obscuration beyond that. 

Because apprehending the freedom from proliferation of the four extremes with the unimpeded path of the path of seeing of Mahāyāna is the main point, that is the point of being able to give up all knowledge obscurations.

...

In brief, primary object of realization of śrāvakas is the selflessness of the person but that realization grasps true existence in the aggregates. It is necessary to reject [such grasping to true existence] because grasping true existence of grasping the true existence in the aggregates has the unimpeded power to cause the actual grasping to the self of persons. The primary object of realization of pratyekabuddhas is [42/b] the non-existence of true existence in apprehended outer objects. Because the primary object of realization of Mahāyāna is freedom from all proliferations of dualistic grasping, the difference in views are vast. 


---


In the context of the Abhisamayālaṃkāra, since the unshared path of the Mahāyāna is primarily explained, having considered that the realization of freedom from proliferation is the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, that is said not to exist for śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Btw, it is often not understood, especially by people coming from gsar ma backgrounds, like cloudburst, that Atiyoga of the nine yānas is one thing, but the Great Perfection is in fact something else, beyond Atiyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Justice What has this got to do with Dharma?

daelm said:
neither Malcolm nor I were speaking about justice. we're explaining how structural misogyny works. if you remember, this was in response to the original example that you took so much offence to. hope it clarified.

maybay said:
If you want to give an example of institutional misogyny to try persuade people against it you should choose a relationship that ends in ruin, like so many of today's patriarchy-free relationships. You've chosen a relationship where everyone came out the other end enlightened.


Malcolm wrote:
In fact, these relationships about which you speak that end in failure, are ending in failure because the pillar upon which patriarchy is founded, controlling women's access to education, etc., is crumbling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
anjali said:
Here is how it is explained by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in As It Is, V2:

Astus said:
That is the same definition as in the Uttaratantra Shastra, and it can go back further to Yogacara's grasper/subject and grasped/object. An arhat that does not grasp at the aggregates cannot have those subtle concepts either. Primarily, because there is no attachment to concepts. Secondarly, because an arhat has realised the lack of self, and without an owner/grasper there can be no owned/grasped either.

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats realize selfness of the aggregates only, they do not realize the selflessness of all phenomena because the aggregates do not include all phenomena, but only afflicted conditioned phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Astus said:
...knowledge of all modes does not come from lack of clinging.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Astus said:
Yes it does come from lack of clinging? Or yes, there is a different cause? If the latter, what is it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does not come from a lack of clinging.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
it is well known among Dzogchen practitioners that much of the war and conflict we experience in this age arises as a result of conflict between mamos.

maybay said:
Maybe there's a supernatural explanation for patriarchy too.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, but I doubt it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Astus said:
By the way, Shakyamuni tasted neither.

Malcolm wrote:
Sadly, he lived before the Columbian exchange.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Astus said:
...knowledge of all modes does not come from lack of clinging.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
They don't stop at that because they don't account for the appearances of kayas. This pristine cognition resembles the frozen states you deride.


Malcolm wrote:
Not sure I understand what you are attempting to say.

Crazywisdom said:
Resting in the space like pristine awareness is not the dharmakaya, because the appearance of the form kaya has to appear spontaneously if there is resting in dharmakaya. And this does not happen in a mere pristine cognition which is like a glaring motionless light. The tantras do arrive at dharmakaya because they don't dispense with mental body forms.

Malcolm wrote:
I only stated that where these three systems agreed was on one point. Where they part is based on their respective paths. For example, familiarity through 32 examples presented in the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, i.e., resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness (shes pa ma bcos pa ), ordinary consciousness ( tha mal gyi shes pa ), or connate pristine consciousness ( lhan gcig skye ye shes ), is a necessary prerequisite in the system of Lamdre before one even embarks on creation and completion stage meditations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, they cannot be. There is no practice of thögal in any gsar ma system.

Astus said:
I said that the listed features can be true for Mahamudra as well.


Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[ For example, it is well known among Dzogchen practitioners that much of the war and conflict we experience in this age arises as a result of conflict between mamos.

kirtu said:
And I have been meaning to ask this for some time:  how can we pacify these mamos?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
One has to get in touch with their bosses, Palden Lhamo, Ekajati, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Well, i think super technology is a fact, (not based on science fiction of alien hypothesis), but true exchanges made by government & aliens, as we allow them to abduct humans for their own experimentation...and they know how greedy we are for technology, so this is how we do business with them.

Malcolm wrote:
Guns and whiskey, huh?

Crazywisdom said:
My ex went to Lhasa. Her impression, "Whoa. It's super sci fi."

Malcolm wrote:
I've been to Lhasa. My impression? "Wow, a lot of Chinese cops."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Saraha's Dohas can be understood as a path.  They speak of methods, devaluing some and tangentially pointing toward others.

Malcolm wrote:
Kagyu Mahāmudra, Trekchö, the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, etc., all have the same point: resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. Dzogchen goes beyond this point, that's all.

Crazywisdom said:
They don't stop at that because they don't account for the appearances of kayas. This pristine cognition resembles the frozen states you deride.


Malcolm wrote:
Not sure I understand what you are attempting to say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This does not follow at all.

Astus said:
How so? If one grasps at concepts, that is identifying with at least some mental aggregates. If no mental phenomena is attached to, where can be any cognitive obscuration?

Malcolm wrote:
Absence of attachment does indicate absence of cognitive obscuration. For example, one may have no attachment to chocolate, and nevertheless be ignorant of the flavor of coffee. Likewise, arhats may be free of gross attachment to the three realms, but they are ignorance of all modes of awakening, among other things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Kagyu Mahāmudra, Trekchö, the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, etc., all have the same point: resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. Dzogchen goes beyond this point, that's all.

Astus said:
In what way does it go beyond? For instance, the seven distinguishing features of thogal (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 269) can be valid for Mahamudra as well.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they cannot be. There is no practice of thögal in any gsar ma system. It does not exist. If you think so, it merely shows you have read something you do not understand, which you should not read, and for which you should find competent instruction if you do want to read it. Otherwise, you will just be another Kim Katami.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
What if the white people in question are neither American nor Anglo?

I'll drop the subject now though. It's not something important enough to warrant getting into a longer disagreement over.

Malcolm wrote:
It is just kind of stupid for non-Tibetans to adopt Tibetan names, as if it changes anything about them.

tiagolps said:
Like a tibetan calling himself John, Bob or Francisco...

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
I reject this ideology you espouse, that white people should stick to "normal" Anglo-American sounding names full-heartedly.

Malcolm wrote:
Have to agree with Nathan on this one.

Coëmgenu said:
What if the white people in question are neither American nor Anglo?

I'll drop the subject now though. It's not something important enough to warrant getting into a longer disagreement over.

Malcolm wrote:
It is just kind of stupid for non-Tibetans to adopt Tibetan names, as if it changes anything about them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is a difference; arhats possess non-afflictive ignorance. Buddha's don't. But if arhats want to realize Mahāyāna buddhahood, they must begin at the beginning, since they lack both accumulations.

Astus said:
Arhats cannot have cognitive obscuration, because that would mean attachment to mental aggregates.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not follow at all. This is like asserting that first stage bodhisattvas cannot have cognitive obscurations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Well, i think super technology is a fact, (not based on science fiction of alien hypothesis), but true exchanges made by government & aliens, as we allow them to abduct humans for their own experimentation...and they know how greedy we are for technology, so this is how we do business with them.

Malcolm wrote:
Guns and whiskey, huh?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It just looks so stupid when white folks go by Tibetan names...

Coëmgenu said:
I reject this ideology you espouse, that white people should stick to "normal" Anglo-American sounding names full-heartedly.

Malcolm wrote:
Have to agree with Nathan on this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is also true that the samadhi of cessation is not a true liberation.

maybay said:
Where is this explained?

Malcolm wrote:
The conduct that grasps nonattachment
is the conduct of the vehicle of characteristics— 
śrāvakas, pratyekabuddhas and bodhisattvas. 
In reality, they are bound by great attachment.
— The Tantra of the Clear Dimension


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
maybay said:
What is an eon to someone experiencing nirvana?


Malcolm wrote:
What is the difference between this and a coma? Nothing, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


kirtu said:
It is true that their activity for sentient beings is cut while they are in nirvana.  So their personal experience of peace is not much for all the others after death.

Malcolm wrote:
It is also true that the samadhi of cessation is not a true liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Phurba Practices?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Sherab Dorje,

You forgot to mention to the OP that, before doing Vajrakilaya (Yidam) practice, one typically has to finish ngondro.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, that very much depends on your teacher. For example, it is the system of Sakyapas to practice either Kilaya or Vajrapani before starting your ngondro, to remove obstacles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Aliens (split from "Patriarchy in Vajrayāna")
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So for you the First Noble Truth is: Existence is suffering and it is caused by aliens?

And what's the deal with those poor aliens always being on the wrong end of the stick? I mean why doesn't anybody ever say: Aliens are to blame for all our positive characteristics. It is because aliens control us telepathically and through implants that we display kindness, compassion, etc... No! The aliens are always the baddies!

Kunga Lhadzom said:
There are MANY different types of Aliens. Look at all the BILLIONS of galaxies "out there" (or is it ALL in our MIND ? )
Buddha, IMO, was trying to help us.  He KNEW  the truth.  He knew how fragile the human mind was/is.  He was trying to help us be in control of our own mind.

I'm still not done watching the video....

Malcolm wrote:
It is possible for nonhuman beings, called gdon in Tibetan, and also mi ma yin, literally nonhumans, to influence and interfere with humans. The problem with the alien hypothesis is that it is based on science fiction notion of the universe involving a super technology and so on. But that is not necessary to account for your intuition that physical events and beings on this planet are being controlled or interfered with. For example, it is well known among Dzogchen practitioners that much of the war and conflict we experience in this age arises as a result of conflict between mamos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Saraha's Dohas can be understood as a path.  They speak of methods, devaluing some and tangentially pointing toward others.

Malcolm wrote:
Kagyu Mahāmudra, Trekchö, the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, etc., all have the same point: resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. Dzogchen goes beyond this point, that's all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


kirtu said:
So from a note to the Uttaratantra & commentary by Jamgon Kongtrul and Khenpo Tsltrim Gyamtso, it is definitely aserted that Arhats attain the begining of the 7th Bhumi upon arousal.
t

Malcolm wrote:
Gorampa disputes this point in his Differentiation of Views:
Moreover if it is inquired “If it is not possible to abandon the knowledge obscurations below the seventh stage, what object to give up would a śrāvaka Arhat entering the Mahāyāna path give up at the seventh stage?” It will be necessary to hide one’s head under a fur coat.

 
Some, wishing to avoid that error, claim “Śrāvaka Arhats enter from the eighth stage”, which is a truly inferior standpoint. If that were so, in order to accomplish Buddhahood from the very beginning it would be quicker to enter the śrāvaka path than the Mahāyāna path, since the latter must take wait two incalculable eons before attaining the eighth bodhisattva stage while the former can attain the state of an Arhat in three lifetimes through rapid effort, and afterwards it would then be sufficient to enter on the eighth stage. Also this appears to be a belittling affront to Mahāyāna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Aliens (split from "Patriarchy in Vajrayāna")
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to the Mahāyāna sūtras, arhats and pratyekabuddha are eventually roused out of their samadhi of cessation, and inducted as beginners on the Mahāyāna path.

Sherab Dorje said:
Yup, having been lapped by us oh-so-compassioante-and-awakened Mahayana practitioners not only do they have to run the whole journey from the beginning, they have to do it twice to catch up with us...


Malcolm wrote:
The merit of an unawakened Mahāyāni is infinite compared to the merit of an arhat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
This thread paints arhatship as quietism, unless I misunderstand.
Knowing peace, being unmoved by anything, one therefore does not rise to compassionate activity for the sake of other beings.
Is this a fair assessment?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats, when they pass away, enter into a samadhi of cessation. This is not actually liberation, from a Mahāyāna POV.

Monlam Tharchin said:
What happens next, if it is not liberation? Rebirth once the conditions of this samadhi are exhausted?

Malcolm wrote:
According to the Mahāyāna sūtras, arhats and pratyekabuddha are eventually roused out of their samadhi of cessation, and inducted as beginners on the Mahāyāna path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Aliens (split from "Patriarchy in Vajrayāna")
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
You are frakin' joking, right?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think she is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2016 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Virgo said:
What's the use of attaining peace?  There is no activity for sentient beings that way.  It is useless from our Mahayana perspective aside from being a field of merit for others while the arhat etc lives.  So much more precious to develop the true heart.  There is nothing in peace.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.

Monlam Tharchin said:
This thread paints arhatship as quietism, unless I misunderstand.
Knowing peace, being unmoved by anything, one therefore does not rise to compassionate activity for the sake of other beings.
Is this a fair assessment?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats, when they pass away, enter into a samadhi of cessation. This is not actually liberation, from a Mahāyāna POV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
And yet Saraha propagated tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
At least one of them did.

Crazywisdom said:
Tilopa got every Tantra and completion practice and dumped it all on Naropa. Wasn't he a chakrassmvara author?

Malcolm wrote:
The person who, according to tradition, first revealed the Laghusamvara Tantra was Saraha I, Siddha Nāgarjuna's teacher. Luipa wrote the first sadhana of this tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
And yet Saraha propagated tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
At least one of them did.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, the citations miss the point.

Sherab Dorje said:
I fail to see how.  Could you please explain?

Malcolm wrote:
Astus does not understand the point I am making, therefore, his citations miss the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
Those who practice tantra inside dzogchen transmission are able to see and experience the manifestation  of the visualization as the rolpa energy of the primordial wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Intellectually.

florin said:
".... jf we do not understand that the whole of samsara and nirvana is the Rolpa (energy manifestation) of our vision, even jf we declare that we have discovered our Rigpa,  know that it does not correspond to the real meaning because Knowledge means understanding and having the certainty that samsara and nirvana in the absolute are the na­ture of primordial purity. And since the view is also nothing other than this be sure to ascertain this profound point! "

Do you think that your teacher was talking here about intellectual understanding then ?

Malcolm wrote:
It is very possible to have an intellectual understanding of this point without having real knowledge of this point, and remain in that intellectual understanding rather than moving beyond it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...but it really is missing the point.

Sherab Dorje said:
Virupa and Saraha are missing the point?

Malcolm wrote:
No, the citations miss the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What in fact that Dzogchen tradition rejects is that the two stages are needed at all. They can be used if desired, but they are not necessary.

Astus said:
Mahamudra works without them as well.

"Still others just meditate on mandala circles,
Some are fixed in explaining the purport of the fourth,
For some [reality] is conceptually visualized as space,
Still others would have [reality] possess emptiness.
In general they are fixed in contradiction."
(Ornamental Flower for the Dohas, v 45–49, Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p 136)

"No tantra, no mantra, nothing to meditate on,
no meditative concentration.
These all are causes which delude your ego.
Do not corrupt your mind, whose nature is pure,
with meditative concentrations.
Station the true self in bliss, and cause it no torment. 
Basking in eating, drink, and sex
Fills the nodes again and again,
Through such a teaching, the ends of the earth are reached”;
Stamp down such deluded defenders of the world
and move on.
Those in whom the breath and mind do not move,
And the sun and moon are uninvolved,
Ignorant ones, you must rest your breath.
Saraha has taught all instructions and gone away."
(v 95–106, p 141-142)

Malcolm wrote:
The Mahāmudra described here is not a path, it's a state of realization. Virupa and other mahāsiddhas express identical sentiments, but it really is missing the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Astus said:
Interestingly, if we compare the early teachings where one has to be free from identification with the aggregates, and teachings on the obscurations in Mahayana that block one from attaining buddhahood, it turns out that there should be no difference at all between arhats and buddhas.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is a difference; arhats possess non-afflictive ignorance. Buddha's don't. But if arhats want to realize Mahāyāna buddhahood, they must begin at the beginning, since they lack both accumulations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...If you want to learn what this means, find a real Dzogchen master.

Sherab Dorje said:
Recruiting in the Mahamudra sub-forum are we?

Malcolm wrote:
Someone asked what the difference was.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Vasana said:
You can still apply Dzogchen view to the other practices.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but nevertheless, this still working with mind. It is not the main point.

florin said:
Those who practice tantra inside dzogchen transmission are able to see and experience the manifestation  of the visualization as the rolpa energy of the primordial wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Intellectually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:34 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Arhats, lacking Mahāyana bodhicitta begin at the beginning of the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Otherwise, arhatship would be a shortcut to buddhahood. But it is not.

Virgo said:
What's the use of attaining peace?  There is no activity for sentient beings that way.  It is useless from our Mahayana perspective aside from being a field of merit for others while the arhat etc lives.  So much more precious to develop the true heart.  There is nothing in peace.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:16 PM
Title: Re: Difference in attainments
Content:
Astus said:
How do arahants progress to the mahayana path after attaining Nirvana?
They start on the 6th/7th bhumi.

It should also be remembered that arhats in Mahayana mainly represent those practitioners who think that annihilation is the solution, and they mistake meditative peace for enlightenment. That's why they need to be waken up from their false nirvana to continue the path.


Malcolm wrote:
Arhats, lacking Mahāyana bodhicitta begin at the beginning of the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Otherwise, arhatship would be a shortcut to buddhahood. But it is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:38 AM
Title: Re: Colorado’s anti-fracking measures didn’t make the ballot
Content:
Lobsang Chojor said:
Is the economy not dependent on the environment?

Rakz said:
It is dependent on exploiting it unfortunately.

Malcolm wrote:
It is then not sustainable. To exploit something is to use it beyond its capacity to sustain itself. If we use the environment beyonds its capacity to sustain itself, the economy that depends on such an environment will collapse when the environment it has destroyed collapses. This is the lesson of the rise and fall of world civilizations since we have had records with which to track these things.

We, sadly, have learned nothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
tiagolps said:
I'd like to know, has anyone ever witnessed or been the victim of misogyny in shangas here in the west? Or anywhere else?

Malcolm wrote:
I have observed it repeatedly amongst men in Sanghas since I started studying with Tibetan Lamas. That said, I have observed misogyny everywhere I have traveled and lived all my life since I was aware that there was systematic dehumanization of women by men. So I don't think it is a problem specific to Varjrayāna, merely that the context of Vajrayāna is patriarchal. Men in particular are largely unconsciousness of it. When it is brought to their attention they often spend a lot of time a) in denial while continuing to treat woman like shit and b) becoming reactionary, trying to justify tropes in Vajrayāna because they have brainwashed themselves into objectifying their religion as being something more than a narrative, a story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:23 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Edit: it just occurred to me that the gendering-fetishization of noun classes 'into' genders is the very same patriarchy this thread is about.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, which was the point of my bringing up the fact that prajñā has all three genders when the issues was raised.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: Michael James on Ramana
Content:
dreambow said:
Many people find Ramana Maharshi inspirational.

Malcolm wrote:
Great. Let them find him inspirational on the nonduality forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


cloudburst said:
It is interesting that this is being cited as support for the idea that there was a movement denying the importance of generation stage. To me it reads as an uneqivocal statement in support of the need for generation stage, if there is to be a completion stage.

Kindly clarify your understanding please?

Malcolm wrote:
The reason why this debate exists in this tantra is because it reflects a debate on the ground in the 8th century between the Indian forbears of the Dzogchen tradition, Śṛī Siṃha et al and other Indians invested in the formal process of what we have come to refer, in blanket terms, as the stages of creation and completion. The passage itself favors those Indians who favored the formal process of the two stages. But the mere fact that the question exists in this tantra (which emerged following the era in which Śṛī Siṃha and co. lived) proves that this was a significant debate in Indian Vajrayāna circles as a relatively early time.

But the creation and completion stages, as envisioned for example in the system of Sakya Lamdre or Naro Khachöma, is completely irrelevant to Dzogchen theory and practice. There is simply no need to go through the conceptual exercise of transforming one's aggregates, sense bases and elements in a mandala of deities, nor is there any need to work with karma vāyus, or relative nāḍis and bindus in the manner of the various completion stage systems such as those found in Lamdre, the Six Dharmas of Naropa, etc.

It is for this reason that tantras like Hevajra are considered provisional in Dzogchen teachings.

What in fact that Dzogchen tradition rejects is that the two stages are needed at all. They can be used if desired, but they are not necessary. Further, another consequence of this is that yogas derived from so called "completion stage" repertoire can be used without needing to engage in creation at all.

There is simply no need at all, from a Dzogchen perspective, to engage in the conceptual exercise of substituting pure vision for impure vision when in fact the vision of pristine consciousness is constantly available to anyone to perceive at any time at all providing they have the proper instructions. If you want to learn what this means, find a real Dzogchen master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 9:58 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, when we talk about the path of Dzogchen, it goes beyond this inert kind of emptiness of which you are so fond.

cloudburst said:
no such thing, no actual Buddhist school posits an inert emptiness, this is a philosophers fantasy

Malcolm wrote:
Astus does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
cloudburst said:
The Dalai Lama says Dzogchen is called Maha-ati because one practices mahayoga and ati together unless one is a Tilopa or Padmasambhava, a genuine chigcarwa.

Malcolm wrote:
This a characteristically Sarma way of understanding things. This is not according to the system of Dzogchen itself.

cloudburst said:
This is really just a result of how the pie is sliced. Actual Mahamudra is also beyond cause and result, so if we classified HYT and Mahamudra the way the Nine yana system is set up, we would divide HYT into maha and anu and Mahamudra would correspond to Dzogchen

Malcolm wrote:
HYT does not go beyond mahāyoga. There is nothing that corresponds to anuyoga and atiyoga in gsar ma tantra.
From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.
Same from the point of view of actual mahamudra. From this pov, there is no cause and result.
The state of Mahāmudra, Dzogchen, and Prajñāparamitā is the same state. What distinguishes these are their respective paths. Unlike Mahāmudra and Prajñāpāramita, the actual path of Dzogchen itself is beyond cause and result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Colorado’s anti-fracking measures didn’t make the ballot
Content:
Lobsang Chojor said:
The sad thing is regulation is difficult because companies won't say what the fracking liquid is citing corporate secrets.

Malcolm wrote:
It is all poison. That is why they won't say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Michael James on Ramana
Content:
florin said:
I have been listening to his talks on Ramana for a while and i found them very interesting and informative.
Here is a biography of him http://www.happinessofbeing.com/michael_james.html
And here one of a recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rToxPytMgaQ

anjali said:
Hi florin. Is there something specific in those links that you believe to be of relevance for a Buddhist forum? Unless there is something specific you have in mind, perhaps material like this might be best posted to the relatively new http://dharmapaths.com/ forum?

florin said:
Whatever it is in those links it could be beneficial to some individuals in this forum but not necessarily to the forum in general.
This is lounge and here as you can see people  post all kinds of things.
Before writing anything further, I would first like to emphasise that this website is not about me as a person, but is about the real 'me', which is the absolute reality, the one fundamental, essential, immutable, infinite, undivided and non-dual consciousness of our own being, which we each experience as 'I am'.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.happinessofbeing.com/michael_james.html

This is an absolute fail.
Countless views of a self are included in two. Those are included in both the eternalist view and the annihilationist view. Countless views of self come from those two.
—— Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


conebeckham said:
If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

Malcolm wrote:
If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.

conebeckham said:
Thus, for one who practices Dzogchen, deity practices are either deviations--if one understands those practices to be means toward Buddhahood--or not, if one practices with other "goals" or "mundane needs" in mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Mipham explains it well, in his commentary on Mañjuśrimitra's Meditation of Awakened Mind:
If it is asked, “What is the method of realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing to the moon with the finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening, because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization.
This unfortunate one is anyone who has not discovered vidyā, or has difficulty doing so.

And:
If one meditates generating the thought that the samadhis and the mudras are dharmatā, and therefore are not different, the ultimate awakened mind arises from that. If one actualizes the meditation, one realizes that all phenomena do not exist apart from one’s mind. The accumulations are gathered and obscurations are purified because of that meditation. One becomes realized through one’s continuum being blessed by the deity of pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.

conebeckham said:
If one engages in KyeRim, for instance, which is mind-based, but with one's Awareness of the Nature permeating all mental activities, is that a deviation, in the Dzogchen system?

Malcolm wrote:
If you think any mind based activity will result in buddhahood, it is a deviation from a Dzogchen POV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Prajñā is masculine, feminine and neuter.

Sherab Dorje said:
Is that grammatically possible in Sanskrit?  Coz in Greek it is not.

Are there many Sanskrit words with this characteristic?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Others believe that practice is the means and Mahamudra is the result, which is not a wrong view, per se, either.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of Dzogchen, this is a deviation of the lower vehicles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
So even magic from other traditions is OK? Hindu tantra, Kabbalah, Egyptian magic, ATR stuff (except where it involves animal sacrifice)?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are sufficiently bored, sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Astus said:
I doubt that. Intelligence/rationality is associated with masculinity by modern Westerners, not ancient Asians.

Sherab Dorje said:
Ironically gnosis (knowledge), sofia (wisdom), dianoia (intellectual brilliance) and logiki (rationality) are all feminine nouns in the Greek language...

dzogchungpa said:
Not to mention prajñā.

Malcolm wrote:
Prajñā is masculine, feminine and neuter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

Sherab Dorje said:
Nope.  They are not teaching that the goal of the practice is to achieve Mahamudra, they teach that all practice IS Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, what the Mahāsiddhas state is that everything is mahāmudra, it has nothing to do with whether one practices or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


conebeckham said:
Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?

conebeckham said:
No.

Not in my experience--though of course, there is a presentation of Mahamudra as "fruition," and gathering the two accumulations, etc., as path practices, along with pretty much every other practice one can engage in, including the two stages, leads to a "goal," there is also a way of understanding Mahamudra as "Ground" and "Path."

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I understand the presentation to which you refer, but simply put, Mahāmudra is on a cause and result continuum or it isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Vasana said:
You can still apply Dzogchen view to the other practices.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but nevertheless, this still working with mind. It is not the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Okay, that is the point that needed clarification.

My teachers, so far, teach that all practice is ultimately Mahamudra practice.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.

conebeckham said:
Well, I would interpret that they are teaching Mahamudra as a path. I agree it is not a "goal," but based on perspective, it may be seen as one.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāmudra is generally approached as a goal to be realized through gathering the two accumulations and so on, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, when they are practicing HYT practices, they are not practicing Dzogchen.

Sherab Dorje said:
Okay, that is the point that needed clarification.

My teachers, so far, teach that all practice is ultimately Mahamudra practice.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because they are teaching Mahāmudra as a goal. Dzogchen (and actual Mahāmudra) is not a goal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that depends on the power of your siddhi. So I would not give up that day job just yet, Astus.

Astus said:
So it's the fault of the user if it doesn't work. How convenient.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as with everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Astus said:
Is it possible to exchange one's 8 hours job for a 30 mins prosperity ritual but maintain the same income level? Might need a new topic for that perhaps.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that depends on the power of your siddhi. So I would not give up that day job just yet, Astus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
IOS and OS X are not the same thing.

Astus said:
That's OK. I'm simply asking about those other special methods that work in all walks of life, like fixing IT problems. Practising patience is of course beneficial, but the machine cares not about your state of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
You will note I excluded IT problems. I also do not know of any mantras that can fix other inert things such as pots, wheels and so on, because they are inert.

Practices for healing, prosperity, increasing harvests and so on are abundant and useful since they relate to things that are alive, and not inert.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Empowerment Question
Content:
sangyey said:
Which empowerment?

Trekcho


Malcolm wrote:
There is no "empowerment" for trekchö. Trekchö actually means one understands the meaning of Dzogchen directly.

Do you mean you received direct introduction?

In any case, in order to practice some deity, you need the lung of the mantra and the description of the deity, instructions on how to practice and what to do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But they are, and are one of the reasons we have many methods of dealing with health, financial and other kinds of obstacles in the Vajrayāna tradition that Dzogchen practitioners can use as they see fit. If you get a Mac, you won't have computer problems, apart from hardware failures.

Astus said:
Really? Do you know a mantra perhaps for the problems caused by the current IOS upgrade on Apple devices? Could help a lot of people.

Malcolm wrote:
IOS and OS X are not the same thing.


Astus said:
If it is a method that is sufficient for liberation, why use anything else?

Malcolm wrote:
That's up to the individual person to decide for themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
I get this, but it gets confusing when Dzogchen practitioners regularly make use of HYT practices..

Malcolm wrote:
Well, when they are practicing HYT practices, they are not practicing Dzogchen.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Simple enough I guess.

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, when someone who is a Dzogchen pracitioner is using methods such as deity yoga, they are using mind to try and go beyond mind. This is a valid approach. However, actual Dzogchen practice means you have already understood what it means to go beyond mind, and have left that kind of practice behind as a path. At that point, practices involving mind are used to gather accumulations, deal with illness and obstacles, and so on, for example the practice of Sang offerings is useful with there are problems with local guardians and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What differentiates practitioners of Mahamudra or HYT from Dzogchenpa, view, practice, both?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Mahāmudra proper, like Dzogchen, is a path of self-liberation.

But in general, HYT is a result vehicle, where as Dzogchen is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

This is the simplest way to put it.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I get this, but it gets confusing when Dzogchen practitioners regularly make use of HYT practices..

Malcolm wrote:
Well, when they are practicing HYT practices, they are not practicing Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Empowerment Question
Content:
sangyey said:
I received a Dzoghcen empowerment and I was wondering since it is Highest Yoga Tantra if I can practice other deity practices without having to get their empowerment?

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Which empowerment?

But in general, you can practice any deity for which you have the mantra lung and the description of the practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What differentiates practitioners of Mahamudra or HYT from Dzogchenpa, view, practice, both?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Mahāmudra proper, like Dzogchen, is a path of self-liberation.

But in general, HYT is a result vehicle, where as Dzogchen is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

This is the simplest way to put it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 10th, 2016 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
let us say you are a Dzogchen practitioner, but you have a problem with alcohol. ... Let is say that you have a clear sign your lifeforce is dwindling, then you might want to resort to various methods of cheating death and prolonging life.

Astus said:
Those issues are not related to the bodhisattva path. I wouldn't consider health, financial, or computer problems appropriately solvable with Buddhist methods, nor should they be seen as such.

Malcolm wrote:
But they are, and are one of the reasons we have many methods of dealing with health, financial and other kinds of obstacles in the Vajrayāna tradition that Dzogchen practitioners can use as they see fit. If you get a Mac, you won't have computer problems, apart from hardware failures.



Astus said:
the actual path of Dzogchen is never based on concepts and mind
That's great. No ideation, no self, no suffering. And that's why I raised the question about the need for doing anything else.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Well, when we talk about the path of Dzogchen, it goes beyond this inert kind of emptiness of which you are so fond.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Because people have relative circumstances.

Astus said:
What do you mean by that? Is Dzogchen not sufficient, or is it functional only for some people?

Malcolm wrote:
Astus, for example, let us say you are a Dzogchen practitioner, but you have a problem with alcohol. In order to overcome that problem, you might adopt the pratimokṣa vows until you overcome that problem.

Let is say that you have a clear sign your lifeforce is dwindling, then you might want to resort to various methods of cheating death and prolonging life.

Dzogchen practitioners can use various methods in order to overcome problems that arise because of impure vision and karma, but the actual path of Dzogchen is never based on concepts and mind, unlike mahāyoga and anuyoga, and the rest of the Buddhist and non-Buddhist vehicles. This is all very straight forward and explained at length in the primary literature of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is a garuda that feasts on the naḡas of the incorrect views of the eight lower vehicles.

Sherab Dorje said:
I preferred the cannibal analogy.

Malcolm wrote:
You would.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
can practice whatever they like or need from the eight lower yānas.

Astus said:
Why would they do that if it's complete as it is?

Malcolm wrote:
Because people have relative circumstances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, like Dzogchen is one body that can eat other bodies.

Sherab Dorje said:
Dzogchen is a cannibal?


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is a garuda that feasts on the naḡas of the incorrect views of the eight lower vehicles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
maybe having a rational mind that can think logically is what they mean by having a penis?

Astus said:
The female body has several drawbacks in Buddhism. First of all, there are the "five obstacles, three subordinations" (
五障三從), that is, no woman can become brahma, indra, mara, cakravartin, or buddha; and they are subject to their father as a child, their husband as an adult, and their son as an old person. Furthermore, particularly in East Asian Buddhism, they are impure from menstruation (see: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/menstration-sutra-michael-kelsey.pdf and http://www.reed.edu/hellscrolls/scrolls/Aseries/A06/A06e.html ), and suffer from giving birth (see: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/filial-sutra.htm ). It is also a regular theme that women are overly passionate.

Here is a famous section from the Nirvana Sutra (tr Yamamoto, ch 16):

"All good men and women desire to be born as a man. Why so? Because females are the nests of evil. Also, it is as in the case of the water of mosquitoes and sawflies, which cannot moisten this great earth. In addition, the sensual appetite of females cannot ever be satisfied."

But eventually the scripture states:

"Any person who does not realise that he has the Buddha-Nature is a woman. If he does so realise, he is a man. If any woman knows that she has the Buddha-Nature, she is a man."

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, what a wonderfully enshrined ode to utterly sexist bias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Creation and completion are not part of Dzogchen praxis. They belong to mahā and anuyoga.

Sherab Dorje said:
And yet Dzogchepna's practice them.

What you are saying is like:  fingers and nipples are not part of the body, only the spleen is.

Malcolm wrote:
No, like Dzogchen is one body that can eat other bodies. Dzogchen is 100 percent independent of the eight lower yānas. Each yāna is a separate, self-contained path to buddhahood.

Nevertheless, a Dzogchen practitioner can practice whatever they like or need from the eight lower yānas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is. Creation and completion stage work with mind. Dzogchen practice does not.

Sherab Dorje said:
Not even the creation and completion stage work which is part of the Dzogchen praxis?

Malcolm wrote:
Creation and completion are not part of Dzogchen praxis. They belong to mahā and anuyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
If I was a homosexual I might just be offended by this.

Malcolm wrote:
Why?

maybay said:
Because its an ironic association of something courageous, like declaring your sexuality, with something ugly, like misogyny.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, you were just passing gas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Anders said:
And so it came to pass, on page 9, that a topic for criticising patriarchy turned into a coming-out party for misogyny.

maybay said:
If I was a homosexual I might just be offended by this.

Malcolm wrote:
Why?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Boy, you really have a low opinion of women.

maybay said:
Its funny I've just had a tenant who, for the first 45 days of her stay couldn't stop telling me how happy she was to be here. Then her friend stays for a week, and after that she's cold as metal. I can't work out her change in behaviour until, with the exact number of days required to give me notice, she sends email saying she's moving. I made meals for her (she can't cook, and in fact makes a complete mess of the kitchen when she tries. Won't take advice either), made fires in the evening, gave her free  piano lessons whenever she wanted, picked up her dog shize. I even offered to marry her so she could stay in the country. But she would rather go live with two friends - the one who stayed here who thinks she comes from noble ancestry, who wouldn't give my keys back for weeks after she left, and who hasn't a shred of integrity behind what she says (she told me no less than three times in writing she would pay deposit for moving in and just didn't-no communication). What of her other friend? She successfully lied to her parents for three years that she had terminal cancer. Nuff said.

In light of some of the other stuff I've experienced I don't think insatiable is unfair at all.

Anders said:
And so it came to pass, on page 9, that a topic for criticising patriarchy turned into a coming-out party for misogyny.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybay never fails to deliver.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
OK. I see these aspirational Buddha fields not the same as akanistha. Fine. But then we talking about unenlightened aspirations not reality (Mahayana!) What do women feel like when they hear Sukhavati only for men but they can go to abhirati with children and keep their form? My guess is they'd still want to go to Sukhavati. Are women ever satisfied?

Malcolm wrote:
Boy, you really have a low opinion of women.

maybay said:
Its funny I've just had a tenant who, for the first 45 days of her stay couldn't stop telling me how happy she was to be here. Then her friend stays for a week, and after that she's cold as metal. I can't work out her change in behaviour until, with the exact number of days required to give me notice, she sends email saying she's moving. I made meals for her (she can't cook, and in fact makes a complete mess of the kitchen when she tries. Won't take advice either), made fires in the evening, gave her free  piano lessons whenever she wanted, picked up her dog shize. I even offered to marry her so she could stay in the country. But she would rather go live with two friends - the one who stayed here who thinks she comes from noble ancestry, who wouldn't give my keys back for weeks after she left, and who hasn't a shred of integrity behind what she says (she told me no less than three times in writing she would pay deposit for moving in and just didn't-no communication). What of her other friend? She successfully lied to her parents for three years that she had terminal cancer. Nuff said.
.


Malcolm wrote:
And you think this stands as an indictment of all women? Boy, are you bitter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:



Sherab Dorje said:
George Orwell went to Spain as a volunteer for a Trotskyist group (POUM) and fought and killed Fascists.  Refer to "Homage to Catalonia".

Rosa Luxemburg was murdered and her body was unceremoniously dumped in a river, by the same type of people that then went on to support the Nazis.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think they would waver from their convictions about free speech. Orwell in particular, since he wrote this after his stint in Spain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 7:44 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
I gotta admit its threads like this make me nostalgic for the sanity of the nikayas. But I persevere.

Malcolm wrote:
It's against bodhisattva vows to encourage you to return to the Hinayāna, but it is tempting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 7:42 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
OK. I see these aspirational Buddha fields not the same as akanistha. Fine. But then we talking about unenlightened aspirations not reality (Mahayana!) What do women feel like when they hear Sukhavati only for men but they can go to abhirati with children and keep their form? My guess is they'd still want to go to Sukhavati. Are women ever satisfied?

Malcolm wrote:
Boy, you really have a low opinion of women.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 6:24 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It says they will have penises.

maybay said:
Beings in Buddhafields don't even rebirth again, never mind procreate, never mind have sex, since there are no females in Buddhafields.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on the buddhafield. For example, in this buddhafield and Akoṣobhya's there are men, women, children.

Get off your butt, stop being obtuse, and do some independent reading.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Sorry I can't accept that penises are a feature of a Buddhafield. Here's another version:

to abandon their female form, will, upon hearing my name, all be reborn as men. They will be endowed with noble features and eventually realize Unsurpassed Supreme Enlightenment.

Which sounds more like a sutra spoken by the Buddha, and which a version tailor made for patriarchal [insert adjective] Tibetans.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, I don't care how some other translator glossed the text. I know what it says and what it means. It says they will have penises. It is a very common phrase in Tibetan and its meaning is just not ambiguous at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Any woman who has been afflicted by the one hundred faults of womanhood, despises the state of womanhood, and wishes to be completely free from the birth place of women, they will avoid the state of womanhood and will produce male genitalia until they reach final awakening.

maybay said:
Male means not female.

Malcolm wrote:
The phrase is very clear in Tibetan, skyes bu'i dbang po, a man's penis. But you said, inaccurately:
There is no distinction of sex in the buddhafields.
So you are wrong, just admit it and move on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
So the monkey story was just bait for a point you were trying to make.

Malcolm wrote:
It was an example, a mirror in which a reflection could be shown.

maybay said:
That was no mirror. It has your opinion all over it.

Malcolm wrote:
We've been having these discussions for some time now. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with concepts alone.
Without the discussion, there will be no movement in a positive direction.

maybay said:
Anyone who starts a conversation with you looking for movement is in for disappointment. Take it as a compliment.  It's just not your forte.

Malcolm wrote:
You really do have a problem with ad hominem remarks, you might want to get help with that. It's pretty sad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For example, when it says that there are no women in the buddhafield of Amitabha or Bhaisajyaguru, how do you think women feel about this?

maybay said:
There is no distinction of sex in the buddhafields.

Malcolm wrote:
You are quite simple wrong. For example, this buddhafield, the buddhafield of Śakyamuni Buddha, has women, as does Akṣobhya's. With regard to Bhaisajyaguru's ninth aspirations for the formation of his buddhafield:
Any woman who has been afflicted by the one hundred faults of womanhood, despises the state of womanhood, and wishes to be completely free from the birth place of women, they will avoid the state of womanhood and will produce male genitalia until they reach final awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Now we have nuns scolding lay people for addressing them incorrectly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as well they should.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:


Queequeg said:
But, you seem to touch on another point... are you suggesting that the way to combat these groups is to ... regulate speech, regulate assembly, etc. etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, he thinks that everyone but right wing nut jobs should have free speech and right to assembly, unless he disagrees with what they too say, in which case they don't, since it is all down to what some imaginary committee in his head is going to define as acceptable speech for everyone. Orwell had it right when he said:
But freedom, as Rosa Luxembourg [sic] said, is ‘freedom for the other fellow’. The same principle is contained in the famous words of Voltaire: ‘I detest what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it.’ If the intellectual liberty which without a doubt has been one of the distinguishing marks of western civilisation means anything at all, it means that everyone shall have the right to say and to print what he believes to be the truth, provided only that it does not harm the rest of the community in some quite unmistakable way
And:
These people don’t see that if you encourage totalitarian methods, the time may come when they will be used against you instead of for you. Make a habit of imprisoning Fascists without trial, and perhaps the process won’t stop at Fascists.
http://www.theorwellprize.co.uk/the-orwell-prize/orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-freedom-of-the-press/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
In which case free speech s based on the premise of an objective law system.  It just gets worse by the minute...

Malcolm wrote:
And what, you would prefer it to determined by some "objective" committee?

At least the legal system in the US (which actually does work for most people) is an adversarial process  and depends on the plaintiff's burden of proof.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
So the monkey story was just bait for a point you were trying to make.

Malcolm wrote:
It was an example, a mirror in which a reflection could be shown.

maybay said:
We've been having these discussions for some time now. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with concepts alone.

Malcolm wrote:
Without the discussion, there will be no movement in a positive direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What is the criteria?

Sherab Dorje said:
I do believe that banning incitement to baseless discrimination and mass murder is a good start.

Yup, that would be high on my list of criteria.

Malcolm wrote:
There are of course laws banning incitement, since incitement to criminal actions is not protected speech. But in order to ban such speech, incitement has to be proven. In other words, someone can say, "We ought to go out and shoot some Mexicans," and this is protected speech as long as no one responds to it or takes it seriously, as several cases where idle threats made against the life of POTUS has shown.

But if someone responds to it, and it can be a) shown that the author of such speech actually intended harm, and b) some other parties went out and engaged in that harm, then it becomes incitement.

But what you are recommending is effectively thought policing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
As my man DJKR says: One cannot disassociate emptiness from vividness.
This inseparability I was told is the Guru.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with depending on chauvinist lamas.

Malcolm wrote:
And chauvinist disciples.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis
Content:
Fa Dao said:
heres the thing...I actually disagree with the "burkini ban", I think its ridiculous. Its like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. And its not about whatever religion I agree with. The point was is that those nuns made a choice..the majority of women in the middle east do not have that same choice. I dont disagree that some do in fact choose to wear that as religious expression...cool..personal choice...great. BUT, that being said, it should be a CHOICE not a law that is forced upon them...period.

Malcolm wrote:
But there is no law in France forcing women to wear burkinis, only an ordinance preventing them from doing so if they wish so...?

And the fact that Catholic nuns are not similarly prohibited from wearing their habits at the beach, violating French secularism ordinances, means that the ordinance against burkinis is merely French anti-Muslim bias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:


Queequeg said:
Really. I'm curious... can you share more details or direct me to sources?

Malcolm wrote:
These two guys I knew years ago (circa 1985) tied up a friend of theirs for fun (they were all shitfaced) and started hassling him for being Jewish.

They were primarily sentenced for violating the Jewish guy's civil rights by calling him a "Jew."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Saying  "Stanley, you damn Jew" on the other hand is a civil rights violation, this will cause you to wind up in jail, since you are addressing Stanley directly.

Queequeg said:
How do you figure? Even if a state actor did that, I don't think they face jail time. There might be a Section 1983 claim.

Malcolm wrote:
Because I know someone who did serious time for such an offense (that fact that they tied him up didn't help).


Queequeg said:
An American football player named Colin Kaepernick has caused a firestorm because he refused to stand during the pre game singing of the national anthem.

Malcolm wrote:
Once I understood in third grade (1970) that I did not have to recite the pledge of allegiance, I stopped. Eventually, I stopped standing as well.

And the Star Spangled Banner is a song that glorifies slavery. I hate it.
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
The challenge has been encountering stories such as those I listed, or a certain infamous anecdote of a Tibetan teacher saying Holocaust victims were reaping their karma.

Malcolm wrote:
All suffering that everyone experiences is a result of karma, including the people killed in the Holocaust, the Native Americans murdered by Europeans by the millions, the African prisoners of war sold into European slavery, my Scottish ancestors who were ethnically cleansed from the Highlands to make room for sheep, you name it. All suffering is a result of karma. There is no suffering that is not a result of karma.

Monlam Tharchin said:
In what way does attributing these incidents to the victims' past negative karma benefit your practice?
I guess that's where I'm getting tripped up.

Malcolm wrote:
It helps one develop renunciation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Not in the slightest.

Malcolm wrote:
Most definitely.

Sherab Dorje said:
I explained why it doesn't, you want to explain why it does?  If not, do you want to take my argument apart with logic, or are you happy with just being petulant and obstinate?

Malcolm wrote:
I am definitely not petulant, but I am happy to be obstinate.

The long and short of it however is this. When someone decides to control freedom of speech, this creates the issues of authority, "who can control speech?"

What is the criteria? Why do we decide to ban Mein Kampf, but to allow the publication of Mao's little Red Book?  Or Naked Lunch? Lolita? etc.

"Hate" is too broad a criteria, just like obscenity.

One has to demonstrate that a specific act of speech has harmed someone; for example, in the US one can refer to someone as a Jew as in "Stanley is a Jew, I saw him at Temple the other day." This is not harmful speech, and no one would blink at it.

Saying to someone on an internet forum, "That Stanley is goddamn Jew," is unpleasant, but it is protected speech, at least in the US. Stanley would have to go out of his way to prove harm.

Saying  "Stanley, you damn Jew" on the other hand is a civil rights violation, this will cause you to wind up in jail, since you are addressing Stanley directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: What if...
Content:
Footsteps said:
Do we really need the seal of mastery to discuss ethical and spiritual issues?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Anyway, who seals mastery? The question of who can legitimize authority is bankrupt. You are your own authority.

Sherab Dorje said:
How post-modern of you!

Malcolm wrote:
Well, just parroting Gendun Chophel, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Astus said:
Those who like to hear liberal things will receive it. Those who are inclined towards hierarchy will receive that.

Malcolm wrote:
We call these things "provisional teachings."

But the situation of patriarchal oppression is pervasive in this world among human beings. It is not skillful to teach patriarchal oppression in the name of "skillful means."

For example, when it says that there are no women in the buddhafield of Amitabha or Bhaisajyaguru, how do you think women feel about this? How would you feel if you were devalued based solely on your genitalia?

conebeckham said:
Very good points.
What, by the way, should "Nuns" be called, if not "Ani-la?" I have seen the words "Ani Tsomo" but I don't know what that means as a title......does Tibetan have a gender neutral title for the ordained?  I am not sure if Getsul and Genyen are gender neutral....

Malcolm wrote:
I don't remember now what she advised us to say, but since she is in fact a gelongma, then Gelongma would be the right title.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This merely gives into the forces of oppression of which you complain.

Sherab Dorje said:
Not in the slightest.

Malcolm wrote:
Most definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
The challenge has been encountering stories such as those I listed, or a certain infamous anecdote of a Tibetan teacher saying Holocaust victims were reaping their karma.

Malcolm wrote:
All suffering that everyone experiences is a result of karma, including the people killed in the Holocaust, the Native Americans murdered by Europeans by the millions, the African prisoners of war sold into European slavery, my Scottish ancestors who were ethnically cleansed from the Highlands to make room for sheep, you name it. All suffering is a result of karma. There is no suffering that is not a result of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This merely gives into the forces of oppression of which you complain.


Sherab Dorje said:
Americans have not had to struggle with the tanglible outcomes of Facsist, Stalinist and Nazi (style) dictatorships since the early 1900's.  In western Europe the last long-running regime of this type fell only recently (Portugal 1932-1974).  In Greece we had a short lived Fascist military junta from 1968-1974.

The proponents of these political regimes utilised democracy and its tools (freedom of speech) in order to abolish democracy.  They are doing the same thing now in many countries, especially in the former Eastern Bloc countries (cf Ukraine).  And let's not forget the war in former Yugoslavia that reignited pro-Soviet era Nationalistic tendencies and lead to all sorts of horrific slaughters.

Now while you may believe that the American approach is a more "adult" approach, the reality is that a large proportion of the citizens within democracies are not political adults.  This is why one sees, for example, the likelihood of Trump being voted into power.  Or the Bush dynasty.

Free speech also assumes that everybody is being heard at an equal volume.  This is also naive to the point of brain death.

If the playing field were level, then there could be freedom of speech.  But as things stand, the notion of freedom of speech, especially somewhere like the US, is a farce and a scam.

Given all this, the least that a politically mature citizen can ask for is that hate speech is not allowed.  Unfortunately the Chinese proverb:  Kill the rooster to quiet the monkeys is very practical.  Particularly when applied to the types of primates that run to the support of hate mongers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Questions about Tulkus and Unrecognized Tulkus
Content:
Lukeinaz said:
Wonderful post.
Thank you Malcom.


Malcolm wrote:
Glad you enjoyed it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But the situation of patriarchal oppression is pervasive in this world among human beings. It is not skillful to teach patriarchal oppression in the name of "skillful means."

Astus said:
Patriarchal oppression does not happen to people, it is what people believe in.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it happens to people. It happens to people all the time

Astus said:
It actually takes a very aware teacher to recognise the power invested in him and to handle it appropriately.

Malcolm wrote:
Hence the problem of people being unconscious of patriarchal power relations in which they are embedded.




Astus said:
For example, when it says that there are no women in the buddhafield of Amitabha or Bhaisajyaguru, how do you think women feel about this? How would you feel if you were devalued based solely on your genitalia?
You might know women who say they accept the traditional values of patriarchy.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't actually.


Astus said:
Now consider women in the actual traditional culture. Most of them can only think that that's how the world works and there is nothing to be done about it.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree with this, and neither do they.


Astus said:
Women's lower status is just another form of karmic consequence, although not in the Nikayas but in the Mahayana scriptures.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and this points to a deficiency in some Mahāyāna teachings which should be openly explored and not defended as Buddhavacana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Who defines "provocatively"? You? Other men? Women should feel free to wear whatever the hell they want, wherever they hell they want, and not be subjected to immature male complaints about it.

Sherab Dorje said:
(Hetero) Men define provocative.  They then design provocative (to hetero men) clothing and sell it to women to wear.  Some women wear it for professional purposes (sex workers).  Some women wear it to attract men for their personal/emotional benefit.  Some women wear it because it is marketed as fashionable.  Some women refuse to wear it.  All those that wear it objectify themselves (purposefully, or not).  Sometimes they wear it for their supposed benefit, but always for the sensory benefit of (hetero) men (whether the women like it or not).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, my question was rhetorical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:


Monlam Tharchin said:
What is the purpose of such stories?

Malcolm wrote:
They are didactic just so stories to encourage people to be careful in their actions. Many are so ludicrous they need to be understood for what they are, just stories.


Monlam Tharchin said:
Karma in the day to day inspires me to cultivate practice and help others.
Karma on this broader scale provokes that reaction I've shared earlier here, that karma (i.e. a fundamental part of dharma) is a cruel understanding of the world which leads to stasis, the status quo, and not a call to compassionate action.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma in the broader sense is inexorable, like water wearing down rocks. Please go outside and look a spider in its web. Some action, who knows what, led to that sentient being to take that birth. On the one hand it seems a horrible birth, on the other hand, we need spiders, and they are indispensable creatures in our ecosystems, like all creatures.

All sentient beings are buddhas, save for their temporary obscuration. What is important is to see that point and help sentient beings realize their innate potential with various methods. The rest is fodder for perseveration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis
Content:



daelm said:
http://globalnews.ca/news/2903036/people-share-photos-of-nuns-on-the-beach-in-response-to-burkini-ban-in-france/

Fa Dao said:
Really? seriously? you are equating nuns who are basically monastics and have made the choice to go through years of training and prayer before they can take their vows and wear a habit to women in the middle east who are forced to be covered up under pain of imprisonment or even death from the time they enter puberty?

Malcolm wrote:
There is some justice in burqas after all:
The Islamic State group has reportedly issued an order banning burqas at security checkpoints in the city of Mosul.

Recently killings of Islamic State commanders by veiled women have forced the terror group to make an exception to its strict dress codes for women.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/sep/6/isis-issues-burqa-ban-at-mosul-security-centers-af/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Nor can we sidestep the implications of karma by pretending it doesn't have a moral dimension.
That is, intentions defined as unwholesome (I.e. a moral dimension) lead to mental and bodily repercussions.
Moral is not a dirty word limited to certain other religions.
What I'm struggling with is understanding the repercussions of certain aspects of the teaching of karma, not some self-existent karma entity inflicting punishment on the world, which does not exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is moral causality. Engage in positive deeds, expect a positive result in this life and the next. The opposite also applies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Astus said:
Those who like to hear liberal things will receive it. Those who are inclined towards hierarchy will receive that.

Malcolm wrote:
We call these things "provisional teachings."

But the situation of patriarchal oppression is pervasive in this world among human beings. It is not skillful to teach patriarchal oppression in the name of "skillful means."

For example, when it says that there are no women in the buddhafield of Amitabha or Bhaisajyaguru, how do you think women feel about this? How would you feel if you were devalued based solely on your genitalia?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2016 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Questions about Tulkus and Unrecognized Tulkus
Content:
Footsteps said:
That's why I posted the subject in the Tibetan Buddhism forum.

I'm beginning to see that the answers to these particular questions do not fall under the domain of the participants of this web forum...

I hope I am mistaken, but by the present indications, it is not likely.

Malcolm wrote:
We are all tulkus.

Footsteps said:
The purpose of this post is to settle a controversy [and perhaps create another] and remove a misunderstanding about so called "sprul skus" or reincarnations, that venerable institution that causes so much controversy in Tibetan Buddhism.

In the teaching of the great perfection there are two kinds of so called nirmanakāyas or tulkus. First, there are impure forward-progression [ma dag pa lugs 'byung] nirmanakāyas  i.e. all sentient beings. These arise because of ignorance.

The second are pure reverse-progression [dag pa lugs ldog] nirmanakāyas: among these there are also two, those that come from the dharmakāya and sambhogakāya, nirmanākāyas of compassion if you will. The second are called nirmanakāyas of the attained result, these are sentient beings of pure karma, blessed by being seen by the buddhas, who make more and more progress, attaining higher and higher states of yogic understanding.

Thus we sentient beings are all nirmanakāyas -- differentiated only by our level of relative attainment and relative level of pure and impure karma.

The so-called "tulkus" of institutional Tibetan Buddhism are also sentient beings; some with higher yogic attainments, some with none, and others with some. Because they are sentient beings, some remember their rebirths well, and others not at all. Some achieve high levels of yogic understanding, some are great teachers, some are panditas, poets and artists. Some tulkus are mere politicians, some are gangsters, some are thieves. But they are all sentient beings. Not one of them was not born from the womb of a human mother.

Most tulkus are never "recognized" because anyone who practices Dharma sincerely is a tulku, no matter what level of "realization" they are reputed to have, whether or not they have been recognized. In this sense, a tulku is defined as someone who acts to help sentient beings inspired by the compassion of the buddhas for sentient beings.

We are all rinpoches, precious ones. Sentient beings are precious because their plight is the cause of the compassion of the buddhas. Buddhas are precious because they exist solely to aid sentient beings from suffering. I guess you could say it is rinpoches all the way down.

Some people crave recognition, wanting others to acknowledge their status -- consider yourselves acknowledged  but don't expect a title. If you want people to consider you a tulku, act like one. If you must, fake it. Faking it may even lead to developing some real compassion which exceeds your petty narrow-minded grasping to titles and position. Being a pure reverse-progression tulku means cherishing all sentient beings. Nothing is holding you back but your own selfishness.

The Dzogchen teachings acknowledge that all sentient beings are tulkus. But whether that is meaningful is not up to the buddhas, it is up to each one of us and our dedication to the path of awakening and benefitting our fellow tulkus.

In reality, tulkuhood is defined not by robes, titles, race, position, gender, education, or creed but by how we are able to apply wisdom and compassion in our efforts to aid sentient beings and alleviate their suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.atikosha.org/2011/01/we-are-all-rinpoches-nirmanakayas-and.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
I'd like to revisit an idea Malcolm raised early on this thread, and ask for some development and clarification....

In what way(s) do Terma reflect a less patriarchal system than, ostensibly,, Kama or Sarma Tantra?

Malcolm wrote:
They don't necessarily.

But the idea is that termas are produced with respect to the time of their revelation, as is their stated purpose.

conebeckham said:
Okay.  In other words, methods of praxis, including tantras, sadhanas, and instructions, will reflect the environment of their gestation, or revalation, or whatnot.  It seems to me that, with the exception of the very highest methods of practice, the majority of practice paths will have no choice but to represent the inequality present in that environment.  I suppose the question is whether Vajrayana MUST reflect the power structures and dynamics of the environment, with respect to gender, and perhaps other factors--whether such characteristics are essential to Vajrayana, in other words, or whether those dynamics and power structures can be corrected, equalized to a greater or lesser degree, etc., by practitioners or other sentient beings, thereby allowing practice paths and methods that reflect this less hierarchical, more "flat" (equal) environment.

Malcolm wrote:
The question is really, are Tibetan Buddhist practitioners in the West, who are otherwise in general pro-feminist, liberal, etc., unconsciously preserving antiquated patriarchal power relations in their attempts to be "good" disciples.

Once place where we see this struggle most acutely is in the desire of women to eliminate the patriarchal features imposed on female ordinands by Vinaya and Tibetan cultural morays. Karma Lekshey Tsomo once scolded my partner and I for addressing her as "ani-la," explaining that calling her "aunty" was in fact demeaning and rude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: What if...
Content:
Footsteps said:
Do we really need the seal of mastery to discuss ethical and spiritual issues?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Anyway, who seals mastery? The question of who can legitimize authority is bankrupt. You are your own authority.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
I'd like to revisit an idea Malcolm raised early on this thread, and ask for some development and clarification....

In what way(s) do Terma reflect a less patriarchal system than, ostensibly,, Kama or Sarma Tantra?

Malcolm wrote:
They don't necessarily.

But the idea is that termas are produced with respect to the time of their revelation, as is their stated purpose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


daelm said:
frankly, i also understood it that way though i inclined towards Zorro or The Magnificent Seven. i hadn't thought of you that way before and made me think of past posts of yours in a different light .


Malcolm wrote:
Maybay is total throwback. He reads too many sword and sorcery and fantasy novels. It's all honor, damsels needing to be rescued, and jousting for him.



daelm said:
doesn't take away, though, i found it quite sweet and wondered if, in the past, when i found some of his posts objectionable, he hadn't been riding to someone's rescue. i can align with that impulse, even if i sometimes disagree with what he thinks rescuing consists of.

anyway.


Malcolm wrote:
He's always trying to save someone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
.The teaching on karma isn't about trying to figure that out. The teaching on karma is about us doing good action and us abstaining from bad action, as this is what helps facilitate enlightenment. To put your attention elsewhere is to miss the point.

Malcolm wrote:
Either karma is an explanation of the world or it isn't.[/qupte]


What you need to know is this much: afflictions cause actions which result in suffering. Remove the affliction, the action won't be committed and the suffering is thereby forestalled.

Karma does explain the world, as Vasubandhu stated, "the variety of the world proceeds from actions."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
daelm said:
I bet you think knights on horses. That's just too much TV for you.
frankly, i also understood it that way though i inclined towards Zorro or The Magnificent Seven. i hadn't thought of you that way before and made me think of past posts of yours in a different light .


Malcolm wrote:
Maybay is total throwback. He reads too many sword and sorcery and fantasy novels. It's all honor, damsels needing to be rescued, and jousting for him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis
Content:
dreambow said:
"This has a ring of truth and so does the fact that some women in the west dress provocatively and then cry foul if they approached.

Malcolm wrote:
Who defines "provocatively"? You? Other men? Women should feel free to wear whatever the hell they want, wherever they hell they want, and not be subjected to immature male complaints about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Questions about Tulkus and Unrecognized Tulkus
Content:


Footsteps said:
It's too bad that a buddhist forum can't shed more light on the subject, after all "tulku-hood" is a buddhist subject.

Malcolm wrote:
It is more of a Tibetan cultural subject. Tibet is the only Buddhist culture with institutionalized reincarnations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Trying to have a more visceral experience will not supply you with any more facts.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is not what it says about Chökyi Lödo, the point is what is says about those of us who are willing to rationalize these things away and perpetuate the social morays (the institution of the infallible guru) that produce such callousness.

Men need to have this discussion because we are the ones who are largely unaware of our own participation in the systems of patriarchy in Vajrayāna, both east and west.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


maybay said:
That's not true. If you docked an animal's tail today I wouldn't hold it against you the rest of your life.

Malcolm wrote:
Whose holding a grudge? I pointed it out initially as something I don't approve of. If you have ever been to Tibet, you would be pretty appalled at how callously Tibetans in general treat animals.

maybay said:
Man says cut off tail. Man cuts off tail. Man shows no remorse. You basically know nothing about it.

Malcolm wrote:
Fantastic way to rationalize something unpleasant away.

Yeah, who he repeatedly refused. Guess who was singing his praises up to the last.
Sure, it is normal when someone falls in love that they sing praises to their loved one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Anders said:
So, Vajrayana, and Buddhism in general, is soiled with patriarchy all over the place. Being aware of this and learning not to play into it is in itself step forward, but then what? What is the skilful way forward that avoids these errors then?


Malcolm wrote:
Awareness itself is the first step. Empowering women is the second. Maybay complained that there were no women (AFAWK) in this conversation, but that is ok. Women already know that Vajrayāna is a patriarchal system. The people who are ignorant of this fact are men, who are privileged by the system.

People complain about Western culture all the time, and much of their complaint has a base. But the one point where Western civilization has come to surpass others is in our recognition of women's rights. Indeed, most of the animosity aimed at the "profligate" nature of Western civilization is based on the freedom women here experience, compared to that in more "traditional" societies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna quite clearly has been patriarchal system, which has primarily benefitted men and disadvantaged women, in terms of social and economic relations.

maybay said:
Vajrayana quite clearly has been practiced in patriarchal societies, which has primarily benefitted men and disadvantaged women... From a historical perspective we talk about Vajrayana including its societal manifestations, but in this sense it is not a system.

Malcolm wrote:
My friend, have you bothered to read the primary texts of what we call the Vajrayāna tradition?


maybay said:
If you say in the past vajrayana was patriarchal, and with terma it can be non-patriarchal, then clearly being patriarchal is not an essential characteristic.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no essential characteristics, only relational ones. That is the point, actually.

maybay said:
The only essential social element of Vajrayana is the guru disciple relationship. That is and has always been open to men and women.

Malcolm wrote:
It has not been open to women in any significant way (nuns in Tibet were and still are subject to be most horrendous shaming and pariah status -- Drukpa Kunleys bio has perfect examples of this) and even then access to the teachings has been largely class based in Tibet. We are in a unique position in the West because most of us who study and practice Secret Mantra systems including Dzogchen are middle-class, educated, white people with leisure and endowment. I am quite certain that we also have our own patriarchal cultural horizon we cannot see beyond, just as in the past.


maybay said:
...defend their honour.

Malcolm wrote:
How quaint.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
I have nothing to say about the OP. The trouble started when he brought in the monkey story and made it personal.

Malcolm wrote:
I find these kinds of attitudes towards animals and their suffering to be perfect exemplars of how patriarchs are given to behave. The point is really that people are ready to excuse such actions in their transvalued guru figure, when they would never excuse such an action in a maybay or Malcolm.

What is most amazing to me, is that people do not even experience qualms over stories such as these.

That said, of course we cannot box Chökyi Lödo's life into one incident when he was an old man who just lost his country. But at least he had been assigned a devout teenage women to care for his needs (oh, wait, another patriarchal trope).

The point is really not the person, the point is the environment in which we operate. Vajrayāna has been a patriarchal system for all of its history, not just a part. Even its reliance on the trope, "ḍākinīs as reservoirs for wisdom" is a transgressive element in an otherwise male-dominated world that serves male needs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Rather im refuting the idea of patriarchy as vajrayana. There are vajrayanists and then there is the ecosystem they inhabit.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna quite clearly has been patriarchal system, which has primarily benefitted men and disadvantaged women, in terms of social and economic relations.



[/quote]
Your criticisms amount to nothing more than a smear campaign against history—against the dead.[/quote]

They're dead, so they really don't mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 9:15 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
Samsara is about lack of perfect equanimity, innit?  This should not excuse Dharma practitioners or even dharma "paths," which are also, I hasten to point out, Samsaric--right?  But it should not surprise us that our inherited or adopted traditions, or even our teachers, should reflect this lack.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, Cone, is that there is a sad willingness on the part of Tibetan Buddhists in particular to equivocate or apologize for behavior which were we to know someone who engaged in these many actions we have discussed, we would understand that person to have a problem.

But strangely, in the domain of religion we readily dismiss sociopathy and psychopathy as signs of transcendence, rather than observe them for what they are: symptoms of pathological personality disorders of various kinds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 9:11 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
The great patriarch of DW has spoken, mb. What more is there to say?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh hardly.

dzogchungpa said:
You have to admit, it's kind of true.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a chance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
No you haven't. Where does it say he took pleasure in that? And how can you know "mere object"? This is what you advocate, mere teachings sans devotion.

Malcolm wrote:
You can keep your sycophantic devotion. I don't need it.

dzogchungpa said:
The great patriarch of DW has spoken, mb. What more is there to say?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh hardly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
I don't just put posts out like I'm putting out the garbage.

Malcolm wrote:
You could have fooled me, considering the general content of your posts is pretty much effluvia.

You can't even mount a defense of patriarchy in Vajrayāna, much less come up with any rational objection to my criticism. You just whine about devotion like some lost puppy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
People who love making a stink about patriarchy, I wonder how long you would last in a matriarchy without your favourite piñata.


Malcolm wrote:
Did I ever once advocate for matriarchy? No.

You couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if its was three feet in front of you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
One subjective long shot at a time please. You still haven't shown docking tails and patriarchy.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure I did. Treating sentient beings as if they are mere objects for the pleasure of their "owners" is one of the hall marks of patriarchal relations.

maybay said:
No you haven't. Where does it say he took pleasure in that? And how can you know "mere object"? This is what you advocate, mere teachings sans devotion.

Malcolm wrote:
You can keep your sycophantic devotion. I don't need it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Rwa Lotsawa was simply a serial killer. Tilopa certainly tortured fish, .


Malcolm wrote:
BTW, I don't believe those stories. They are just tales invented to impress Tibetans who were a rather bloodly minded lot.

And, the story of Naropa giving his consort to Tilopa neatly illustrates the patriarchal nature of Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Docking tails is a common practice. Please explain to me how people can breed an animal that will suffer every day just trying to breathe.

pug.jpg

People are easily shocked by abruptness and violence, but the suffering of degeneration is fated?

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of dog breeding is also a result of patriarchy.

maybay said:
One subjective long shot at a time please. You still haven't shown docking tails and patriarchy.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure I did. Treating sentient beings as if they are mere objects for the pleasure of their "owners" is one of the hall marks of patriarchal relations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
They took Helena Blavatsky seriously

Malcolm wrote:
Those were Mongolians, not Tibetans.

Alexandra David Neel would be a better choice for your example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
Docking tails is a common practice. Please explain to me how people can breed an animal that will suffer every day just trying to breathe.

pug.jpg

People are easily shocked by abruptness and violence, but the suffering of degeneration is fated?

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of dog breeding is also a result of patriarchy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Rwa Lotsawa was simply a serial killer.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. Definitely. But Chanchub Dorje was a greater practitioner, and that is why we say, "Vajrakilaya defeated Vajrabhairava."

Karma Dorje said:
Tilopa certainly tortured fish, by your estimation, and it is irrelevant that he was liberating their mindstreams as he did so.

Malcolm wrote:
A story emphasizes how horrified Naropa the Kashmiri Brahmin was at discovering him. I don't place much stock in the liberating the mind streams of fish story. YMMV.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Since the definition of torture relies in a large part on intention-- the intention to cause pain to coerce behaviour or to provide pleasure to the torturer, and it is unclear from the story that either of these was his motivation for cutting the monkey's tail l.

Malcolm wrote:
It is absolutely clear from the story that his motivation was " to coerce behaviour."

Karma Dorje said:
Khyentse Chokyi Lodro had a pet monkey, and someone once informed him that it would be a good idea to remove its tail, as it would no longer be able to be so mischievous. So one day, Khyentse Chokyi Lodro rather abruptly said, "We should cut off the monkey's tail right now."
No, you infer that is why he cut the monkey's tail off. There is no explanation why he did it at that particular point. Not knowing his mind, I will not hazard a guess as to his intention.

Malcolm wrote:
KD, if we talking about Joe EFing Schmo, you would not hesitate to agree. But because this person has been lionized because they are a famous guru, you are just making lame excuses. Come on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Since the definition of torture relies in a large part on intention-- the intention to cause pain to coerce behaviour or to provide pleasure to the torturer, and it is unclear from the story that either of these was his motivation for cutting the monkey's tail l.

Malcolm wrote:
It is absolutely clear from the story that his motivation was " to coerce behaviour."

Karma Dorje said:
Khyentse Chokyi Lodro had a pet monkey, and someone once informed him that it would be a good idea to remove its tail, as it would no longer be able to be so mischievous. So one day, Khyentse Chokyi Lodro rather abruptly said, "We should cut off the monkey's tail right now."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Where are the bodhisattvas?
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
But this seems to imply that a bodhisattva's help is no more efficacious than that of an ordinary person.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, if all you are interested in is food, clothing or medicine.

But if you are interested in Dharma teachings, they are much more helpful.

Monlam Tharchin said:
Without these things, beings cannot invest time or energy into the Dharma, can they?

Malcolm wrote:
That is why bodhisattvas give food, clothing and medicine, if that is more relevant to a person's situation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
if I were to say that a butcher was torturing his animals, we would think something rather different than that he was just butchering them.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, a butcher kills his animals, ideally, they die immediately.

When you cut off a monkey's tail, it suffers from the initial pain of having its tail sawed off, then it suffers for days and days while it heals. And it suffers for the rest of its life because its sense of balance is ruined. That is torture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Where are the bodhisattvas?
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
But this seems to imply that a bodhisattva's help is no more efficacious than that of an ordinary person.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, if all you are interested in is food, clothing or medicine.

But if you are interested in Dharma teachings, they are much more helpful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
In some technical sense I concede your point, but frankly I think it is a very misleading thing to say.

Malcolm wrote:
If someone technically cut off your arm, I think you would call it torture. Or are you so brainwashed as to excuse animal cruelty in a guy who supposedly is enlightened.

dzogchungpa said:
I am not excusing anything but with all due respect, I think you are tripping.

Malcolm wrote:
With all lack of respect, you are making excuses for cruelty to animals.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
In any case your suggestion that JKCL cut off the monkey's tail as an act of torture, and that this is somehow associated with patriarchy, is absurd.


Malcolm wrote:
I did not make that association. But since you bring it up, since a key feature of patriarchy is reducing living creatures to the level of objects, well yes, they are related.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It's technically a mayhem.

Malcolm wrote:
Among lawyers. Ordinary people call it torture and maiming. In either case it is an extraordinarily cruel thing to do to a monkey (or a dog, or a cat.)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
In some technical sense I concede your point, but frankly I think it is a very misleading thing to say.

Malcolm wrote:
If someone technically cut off your arm, I think you would call it torture. Or are you so brainwashed as to excuse animal cruelty in a guy who supposedly is enlightened.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In any case, the story can be found.

dzogchungpa said:
Here is the entire passage:
As I mentioned earlier, Khyentse Chokyi Lodro had a pet monkey, and someone once informed him that it would be a good idea to remove its tail, as it would no longer be able to be so mischievous. So one day, Khyentse Chokyi Lodro rather abruptly said, "We should cut off the monkey's tail right now." Tashi Namgyal held the monkey and I held the tail and Khyentse Chokyi Lodro cut off his tail with a kitchen knife. Afterward I thought that Khyentse Chokyi Lodro might change his expression somehow - that perhaps he would be sad or feel compassion for the monkey, but to my surprise he remained perfectly relaxed and normal.
(DKR is the narrator)

You feel that incident can be accurately described as "Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodö's torturing of a monkey", to use your words?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, absolutely. If someone cut off your arm, for example, wouldn't you described this as torture? Monkeys use their tail as a limb.

The OED says:
torture |ˈtôrCHər|
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
• great physical or mental suffering or anxiety: the torture I've gone through because of loving you so.
• a cause of suffering or anxiety: dances were absolute torture because I was so small.
verb [ with obj. ]
inflict severe pain on: most of the victims had been brutally tortured.
• cause great mental suffering or anxiety to: he was tortured by grief.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What differentiates practitioners of Mahamudra or HYT from Dzogchenpa, view, practice, both?

Astus said:
That sounds to me too broad a question. Practitioners are individuals, and people can use for practice all sorts of things, and approach the same method in many ways. As for the ideal part, there is creation stage, and there are various forms of completion stage: six yogas, dzogchen, and mahamudra. All four could be combined, all four can be used separately, and in any other setting. Besides that, I guess you are already familiar with the general descriptions of those methods.


Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah but most Dzogchenpa I know of (at least those that openly advertise as such) also do tantric creation and completion stage practices. In fact, seems like there is Dzogchen literature concerned with that. I'm just wondering if there's any real dividing line.

Malcolm wrote:
There is. Creation and completion stage work with mind. Dzogchen practice does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Perhaps you mean "Brilliant Moon"? In that case, "torturing" is kind of hyperbolic, don't you think?

Just sayin'.


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, blazing splendour.

maybay said:
There's no mention in Blazing Splendour. The story in Brilliant Moon was cutting off the monkey's tale.

Malcolm wrote:
In any case, the story can be found.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Perhaps you mean "Brilliant Moon"? In that case, "torturing" is kind of hyperbolic, don't you think?

Just sayin'.


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, blazing splendour.

dzogchungpa said:
Really? I've read that book a few times and I think I would remember something like that. Can you give a page number or something?

Malcolm wrote:
it is in the chapter on Chokyi Lödo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I like the Indian material just fine.

Malcolm wrote:
Both Saraha and Virupa derided sexual yogas. etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
It is the lesser of evils, if you accept that it was a consideration.

Malcolm wrote:
"The lesser of two evils is still evil."

-- Jerry Garcia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


conebeckham said:
I don't know that story, and have a feeling I don't want to........right?

Malcolm wrote:
Blazing Splendour.

dzogchungpa said:
Perhaps you mean "Brilliant Moon"? In that case, "torturing" is kind of hyperbolic, don't you think?

Just sayin'.


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, blazing splendour.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You can find the reference in Yarnall's translation of the creation stage section of sngags rim chen mo of Tsongkhapa.

Astus said:
Alas, I don't have that one ( https://books.google.com/books?id=4cZyNwAACAAJ ).
I am quite certain that the reference refers to Śrī Siṃha.
So, was Sri Simha a member of the sahajayogin's group together with Saraha and Maitripa...

Malcolm wrote:
Much earlier, eight century, not tenth. (I said ninth, before, that was an error).

Astus said:
therefore dzogchen and mahamudra come from the same movement?

Malcolm wrote:
Not the same movement, similar skepticism though.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I don't agree these things are deprecated. These were always for a small group. And rare. These methods remain to most concrete and obvious pointers.


Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen? Of course they are, which is why Longchenpa derides sexual yogas as being for immature horny people to pass time until they are ready for real practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


conebeckham said:
Yes.  And teachers who may in fact be "above it all" may in fact include such reflections, on the gradual paths.  This would be skillful means.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice apologetic, but I am not buying it. No more than I find Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodö's torturing of a monkey acceptable.

conebeckham said:
I don't know that story, and have a feeling I don't want to........right?

Malcolm wrote:
Blazing Splendour.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it is clearly an earlier, skeptical movement that can be directly traced back to Śrī Siṃha in India, and we have evidence for this in the work of Mañjuśrīkiriti, who mentions Śrī Siṃha by name, as well as other associates of Padmsambhava such as Bhikṣuni Nandi.

Astus said:
I've read some works of Mathes but don't remember any mention of Dzogchen there. Do you know which one it was? Or do you mean that Dzogchen has the same origin as Mahamudra in India?


Malcolm wrote:
No, this reference is not in Matthis. You can find the reference in Yarnall's translation of the creation stage section of sngags rim chen mo of Tsongkhapa. He is not so confident about the identity of the named figures because he is not very familiar with the sNying ma tradition and its history. But I am quite certain that the reference refers to Śrī Siṃha. Moreover, there was push back by the anonymous author of the Hevajra Tantra who places this debate in the mouth of Vajragarbha:
Vajragarbha asked:

“This yoga of the completion stage,
its joy is called great bliss.
Completion is not a meditation,
so why do creation?”

The Bhgavan replied:

“Incredible, the great bodhisattva,
has lost the power of faith.
Where does bliss come from without the existence of the body?
Such bliss cannot be spoken of.
Joy pervades all migrating beings 
in the form of pervaded and pervader.

Just as the fragrance present in a flower,
cannot be known without the flower’s existence.
In the same way, since form and so on won’t exist,
also bliss itself won’t be perceived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 8th, 2016 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


conebeckham said:
I would venture to say that there are more qualified female teachers now than ever, as well.  Certainly a cause for rejoicing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Buddhadharma is not inherently patriarchal, but when the crystal ball of Dharma placed on the "sheet" of patriarchal culture, that culture shows through the crystal.

conebeckham said:
Yes.  And teachers who may in fact be "above it all" may in fact include such reflections, on the gradual paths.  This would be skillful means.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice apologetic, but I am not buying it. No more than I find Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodö's torturing of a monkey acceptable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


conebeckham said:
I would venture to say that there are more qualified female teachers now than ever, as well.  Certainly a cause for rejoicing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Buddhadharma is not inherently patriarchal, but when the crystal ball of Dharma placed on the "sheet" of patriarchal culture, that culture shows through the crystal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Malcolm wrote:
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.

conebeckham said:
And even if it were a "Tibetan invention," so what?
I am quite certain the same aspersions have been cast on Dzogchen on the past.

It gets quite tiresome, frankly.
EDIT: I see Astus has cast the same aspersions, LOL.

Malcolm wrote:
To whom is this addressed?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:


Astus said:
Dzogchen as a separate method is a Tibetan invention as well...

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is clearly an earlier, skeptical movement that can be directly traced back to Śrī Siṃha in India, and we have evidence for this in the work of Mañjuśrīkiriti, who mentions Śrī Siṃha by name, as well as other associates of Padmsambhava such as Bhikṣuni Nandi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Mahamudra as a separate system from HYT is a Tibetan invention.

Malcolm wrote:
That may well be the case, historically, but it cannot be denied that in the ninth century, in India, there was a skeptical movement with respect to creation stage ritualism, as well as sexual yogas and so on found in the so called highest yoga tantras that originated with Śrī Siṃha and his milieu, and was continued later by Saraha, etc. Indians like Vairocanaraksita and Vajrapani introduced Mahāmudra to Tibet as an independent tradition. This is well established now. Read Klaus Dieter Matthis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Derek said:
It provides additional evidence of the intermingling of Saivism and Buddhism at that time.

Malcolm wrote:
But this is really quite irrelevant to Dzogchen and Dzogchen tantras. Have you read any?

There is no intertextuality at all between Dzogchen tantras and non-Buddhist tantras.

Dzogchen is its own thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
maybay said:
A group of men discussing patriarchy in Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is all very patriarchal, which is my entire point.

maybay said:
Seems kind of unavoidable don't you think? I mean, men like talking about this stuff. Woman generally don't. How is terma going to change that?

Malcolm wrote:
Women are not the voiceless class they used to be. There are plenty of women here who talk about all kinds of things.

As far as termas go, we can already see a shift. Within the past 100 years, there have already been four famous women tertons (three in the past 50) , whereas in the past 1000, I can think of only one (there may be others), Jomo Menmo.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Meta-discussion, much?


Malcolm wrote:
No, this a discussion. A metadiscussion is having a discussion about a discussion. What we are discussing is patriarchy in Vajrayāna.

maybay said:
A group of men discussing patriarchy in Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is all very patriarchal, which is my entire point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
I dunno if this meta discussion--these are interesting topics, and recurring ideas, regarding Tantra as a subject--though I'm aware of whence this thread hath sprung.


Malcolm wrote:
True, I was replying in another thread, and as so frequently happens to me on DW, in the midst of my reply, the thread was closed. [Now this is a metadiscussion]. But I think this topic title is more apropo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Meta-discussion, much?


Malcolm wrote:
No, this a discussion. A metadiscussion is having a discussion about a discussion. What we are discussing is patriarchy in Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
Nor do I, and to be fair, I've not heard any commentary regarding those passages that attempts to make it so...but, you know, the gloss for "Guru Resides Always in the Bhaga," for instance--do you think it is only explicit meaning, and the implicit (or willfully construed) interpretations are apologetics, or somehow deflections from the literal?

Malcolm wrote:
No, there are of course various interpretive schemes for the Indian tantras, the six limits, and so on. It can be fun an interesting to read various attempts by Indian panditas to explain these things. And when it comes to the same tantra, different Panditas have wildly different explanations, meaning that there was very little consensus on just how to interpret these tantras. Of course, than there is the fact that Tibetans, in general, preferred violence to eroticism, which is why the more popular yidams among Tibetans are Vajrabhairava, Vajrakīlaya, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Seeing Mary Turner, we sadly shake our heads, saying if only she hadn't committed great evil, this wouldn't have happened.

Malcolm wrote:
Seeing Mary Turner, we shake our heads in disbelief at human cruelty, and try to make a world where people like her and her husband can live free of terror and oppression.

Karma does not enter into it. Karma is an explanation from the point of view of Dharma language, not worldly language.

We abuse the doctrine of karma when we says things like, "That was their karma, too bad."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
The real ganapuja is realized when one eats ejaculate or shit with eyes wide open, like the Guhyasamaja says. Your lama said eat your cookie with nonduality. Good luck with that vague notion. The former is concrete exercise.

Malcolm wrote:
Ganapuja is cookies and milk. Ganacakra, well, that is something else altogether.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
conebeckham said:
Okay, but don't we understand this as a reflection of larger cultural values of the time?

Malcolm wrote:
Why would that excuse it?

conebeckham said:
Which leads one to wonder if that was the skillful means of the Mahasiddhas (and Buddha, for that matter) who spoke or wrote the sutras and Tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Are we certain that what we have in this or that text are the literal words of this or that Buddha, free from editing by human beings? I am not so certain. Are you?

This is one reason, that as a class of literature, I like Dzogchen tantras. They are, like the Dohas of Saraha and Virupa, largely free from, or explicitly critical of, all of this kind of imagery, apart from what they inherent from the Guhyagarbha in terms of the mandala of peaceful and wrathful deities. But in Dzogchen tantras, the so called "antinomian" aspects of the Guhyagarba are so sublimated as to be nonexistent. This is another reason why Dzogchen is more appropriate today, because it has a place in a post-patriarchal society. Cakrasamvara, Hevajra, etc., will have a more difficult time.

conebeckham said:
And...a question, if I may. The levels of commentary re TantrA itself--with "twilight language," modes of explication as symbology vs. literal interpretation, etc.---do we think these were invented by apologists, or by prudish Tibetans or monastics?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think that texts describing the breasts and genitalia of young women in order to ascertain their suitability for consort practice need to be understood as intentional language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Negative Karma
Content:


Monlam Tharchin said:
If we say Mary Turner experienced karma of retribution for past negative deeds, do we not then shift the onus onto her instead of her attackers?

Malcolm wrote:
She was not responsible for their intention.

Monlam Tharchin said:
Didn't they do her a favor by dispensing with this particular karmic debt, of which we say she is now free?

Malcolm wrote:
It is true that for this person, that ripening will never again happen.

Monlam Tharchin said:
Where does the logic leap then to "Mary Turner committed such evil in the past that being killed in this way makes perfect sense"?

Malcolm wrote:
We cannot know what deed, small or large, that led to such a ripening. All we can know is that she experienced such a ripening.

Karma does not make senseless violence sensible, nor injustice just. The operations of karma are beyond sense and justice. They are relentless.

The ripening of karma is something which we all experience. For example, if could be the case that in the past, this person destroyed a spiders nest with juvenile spiders with some intense anger and hatred. What we consider small actions can have a very large result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
the Manjusriyamulakalpa states that Saiva, Garuda and Vaisnava mantras were all taught originally by Manjushri.

Derek said:
It's just more evidence that "Tantric Śaivism and Tantric Buddhism borrowed freely from one another, creating marked parallelisms primarily in practice, and sometimes in thought as well." http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis


Malcolm wrote:
Interesting article, but it is irrelevant to Dzogchen and its historical formation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
Believe in the translation?  Believe in Sanderson's analysis?

Yes I believe the Manjusriyamulakalpa states that Saiva, Garuda and Vaisnava mantras were all taught originally by Manjushri.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is not under dispute. The question was do you believe these things were actually taught by Mañjuśrī.


BuddhaFollower said:
Considering the Manjusriyamulakalpa is a major Indian text, you must believe.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm, no. That level of credulity I leave for fundamentalists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 9:48 PM
Title: Patriarchy in Vajrayāna
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically folks, Vajrayāna reflects male, patriarchal values. Just accept this is so and move on.

Does this mean that Vajrayāna cannot itself move beyond such values? Of course not (that's why we have termas).

But we do ourselves a disservice by pretending that some of the tropes in Vajrayāna which are deeply sexist do not exist, and are in fact based on the idea of women as disposable property. For example, one hears accounts of young women who died after being used during empowerments.

There is an inherent sexism in the trope of lower caste women being used by upper caste males.

While some revisionist scholars such as Miranda Shaw indulge in romantic fantasies about the origins of Vajrayāna being grounded in subaltern female gurus, we should shelve such interpretations for the fantasies that they are.

While it is true that there were female gurus in ancient India, and continuing on in Tibet, we still have Yeshe Tsogyal referring to herself over and over again as someone of lower birth ( skye dman ) and small intelligence ( shes rab chung ) merely because she is a women.

The very fact that there is a samaya vow not to disparage women as being incapable of buddhahood is in fact proof of the depth of patriarchy and sexism which permeates the Buddhist environment in which Vajrayāna arose.

For example, there are literally hundreds of texts which describe the features of young women (generally between 15 and 25,but in Kalācakra, as young as 12) to be used for partners, the size of their breasts, buttocks and eyes, the shape of their vaginas, their smell, tone of their voice, etc, for use as consorts by men. But I have never seen a similar text for men in which they are analyzed for the size and shape of their penis, and so on, for their suitability to be used as consorts by women.

So ladies and gentleman, let us not pretend that Buddhism in general has not expressed itself historically as a patriarchal religion, and in particular, that Vajrayāna (from kriya tantra to anuyoga) does not have obvious and explicit patriarchal features.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You believe that?

BuddhaFollower said:
Believe in the translation?  Believe in Sanderson's analysis?

Yes I believe the Manjusriyamulakalpa states that Saiva, Garuda and Vaisnava mantras were all taught originally by Manjushri.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is not under dispute. The question was do you believe these things were actually taught by Mañjuśrī.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 12:08 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Dan74 said:
I was never offended by what Nicholas posted nor wanted him censored. The trouble I had was that he did not engage in discussion.

My mistake was that I had misjudged the volume of his other contributions. For that I apologise.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a good man who can recognize their error and apologize for it.

Thanks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
As a homosexual, one of the groups most frequently accused of propagating "PC safespace nonsense"...


Malcolm wrote:
Nah, that is mostly immature college kids who think they have a right not to be offended.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:


Derek said:
5. Consciousness. In both traditions, the central focus is on consciousness, and in particular on pure consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the focus in Dzogchen is not on consciousness per se (the all-basis, the ālaya), it is on understanding the basis, which is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

Moreover, Trika is grounded in the modified Saṃkhya of the Shaiva tradition; whereas Dzogchen has its feet firmly planted in Abhidharma and Madhyamaka.

BuddhaFollower said:
Even though Saiva tradition has a Samkhya background, the Manjusriyamulakalpa states that Saiva, Garuda and Vaisnava mantras were all taught originally by Manjushri.

Malcolm wrote:
You believe that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[Yes, you did agree, and then we got lost in this hate speech discussion.

Sherab Dorje said:
I'll agree with you (again) on this point.  But the issue is actually one about free speech, is it not?  Or do you want to discuss Nicholas's "goodbye cruel forum" drama?  Just in case you didn't notice:  Nicholas DECIDED that instead of facing the consequences for posting discriminatory garbage, he would rather leave the forum.

Malcolm wrote:
I think that Dan's comment was unfortunate, and I think that liberal intolerance is just as damaging as "hate speech."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
On this we agree. I find a lot of value in Nick's posts on Buddhist doctrines, sutras, and history.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that was my initial point, which was derailed by SD.

Sherab Dorje said:
BS!  Go back and actually read what I said, you will find that I agreed with you.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you did agree, and then we got lost in this hate speech discussion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I find it more unfortunate however that Dan chose to misrepresent Nick's over all contribution to the forum, which is what started this whole dialogue.

Admin_PC said:
On this we agree. I find a lot of value in Nick's posts on Buddhist doctrines, sutras, and history.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that was my initial point, which was derailed by SD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
In Nicholas' case, he was just posting links to discriminatory articles as authoritative statements, with absolutely no commentary. Furthermore, he became indignant when it was removed, claiming it was an authoritative statement. Criticizing discriminatory behavior is not the same as posting discriminatory behavior as authoritative.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we can't know that, can we, since you removed the article, the link and the entire thread. And by doing so, you prevented people from protesting its discriminatory content, or rebuffing Nick in a proper way. Such are the consequences of censorship.

Admin_PC said:
Correction: "* you can't know that". People did protest its discriminatory content, both in the thread and by filing multiple reports. Sorry you missed it. Such are the consequences of not being able to read every thread on this forum as they happen.

Malcolm wrote:
I am familiar with the situation. I think it is unfortunate that you chose to delete the thread. I find it more unfortunate however that Dan chose to misrepresent Nick's over all contribution to the forum, which is what started this whole dialogue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
In Nicholas' case, he was just posting links to discriminatory articles as authoritative statements, with absolutely no commentary. Furthermore, he became indignant when it was removed, claiming it was an authoritative statement. Criticizing discriminatory behavior is not the same as posting discriminatory behavior as authoritative.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we can't know that, can we, since you removed the article, the link and the entire thread. And by doing so, you prevented people from protesting its discriminatory content, or rebuffing Nick in a proper way. Such are the consequences of censorship.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Admin_PC said:
No Discriminating Against Members on the Basis of their Gender, Sexual Preferences, Ethnic Group, Language, etc - pretty straightforward.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, that was not happening here.

Admin_PC said:
Discriminating against Transgenders is still discriminating against someone on the basis of Gender.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, that did not happen. Posting a link to an article than someone find discomforting does not amount to discrimination.

Then why, pray tell, do you allow such posts as this:

"Homosexual behavior, especially, is behavior that will put an end to nations and humanity. What does it mean by putting an end to nations? Someone who practices homosexuality will not care about their country, so that country will disintegrate. Homosexuals do not procreate, so the human race will vanish! This kind of behavior is forbidden by national law, universal law, and natural law. Those who do will fall into the hells no matter who they are. Every one of us must know this.

People cannot be oblivious to the basic responsibilities of human beings, otherwise we cannot even compare to animals. Notice how animals do not engage in homosexual behavior. Some may argue that same-sex lab rats practice homosexuality, but that is because you force these rats. Has anyone confined you so that you are only with those of your sex and make you practice homosexuality? This kind of behavior defies creation; it is wrong. Cultivators must be normal and not psychologically deranged."

the rest can be read here:
http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma/avoid.html
Or perhaps this is allowed to stand because it was posted before the present Safe Space regime?

Perhaps you ought to figure out what your actual policies are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
The the Guhyasiddhi of Padmavajra, a work associated with the Guhyasamaja tradition, prescribes acting as a Saiva guru and initiating members into Saiva Siddhanta scriptures and mandalas.

Malcolm wrote:
The work begins however by saying:
Though indeed there are other tantras,
any taught by the guide, the Buddha,
possess definitive intimate instructions. 
I shall now explain them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
By this stringent definition, anything can be defined as hate speech if it is speech you don't like.

Admin_PC said:
No Discriminating Against Members on the Basis of their Gender, Sexual Preferences, Ethnic Group, Language, etc - pretty straightforward.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, that was not happening here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 7th, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hahahaha, nice try. Who defines "hate speech?" Are we so fragile that we need censors deciding for us what constitutes hate speech? No thanks.

I cannot see the censored article now,  so I cannot decide for myself if it constitutes "hate speech." This is the problem with censorship.



Admin_PC said:
If it does not affect you personally, then I hardly see how you're qualified to determine if it's hate speech.

Malcolm wrote:
By this stringent definition, anything can be defined as hate speech if it is speech you don't like.

Admin_PC said:
Disagreeing with someone's lifestyle choices may, in fact be a clear violation of the policies on discriminatory behavior.

Malcolm wrote:
But there are kinds of disagreements about people's lifestyle choices here, for example, "eat meat" vs. "don't eat meat"; "drink alcohol" vs. "don't drink alcohol", and so on. Given what you have said above, there is all kinds of discrimination going on here.

Admin_PC said:
It's very little to do with "pc police" and a lot to do with an agreed upon policy that's already in place.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you all are just the present regime in charge, and you decide things as you see fit, using the vaguely worded TOS to back up whatever arbitrary decisions you make. I accept that this is the case, but I will protest when I think you or another moderator speaking incorrectly, as did Dan above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Questions about Tulkus and Unrecognized Tulkus
Content:
Footsteps said:
These questions about Tulkus pertain to the realm of Unrecognized Tulkus.

Does the act of remembering past lives make one a tulku?

Does remembering the act of choosing one's birth prior to incarnation make one a tulku?

What are the definitive/indicative factors that determine whether or not an individual is an unrecognized tulku?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to get a Tibetan Lama to sign off on it, the higher, the better.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Granted, but almost nobody refers to Rinpoche with that initialism.

Finney said:
That doesn't seem to be the case, unless this happens to be a very recent change. I know several of his students, two people who help run one of his organizations, and a few lamas who went to Dzongsar Institute and they all regularly refer to him as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, even just Khyentse Rinpoche. I'm not sure I've ever heard them use Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and I don't believe they're being at all disrespectful.

dzogchungpa said:
I was referring to the https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/initialism 'DKR', not what it abbreviates, "Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche", which indeed is in common use. I was just teasing Malcolm about what I take to be his reluctance to associate DJKR with Jamyang, i.e. Manjushri.

Malcolm wrote:
That is an awfully silly projection on your part, chung. Further, just for the record, 'jam dbyangs is Mañjughośa. 'jam dpal is Mañjuśṛī.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I get it now. You support censorship of opinions not in accord with your own. Good to know.

Sherab Dorje said:
No, you don't get it at all.  I believe that freedom of speech does not apply to hate speech, whether the hate speech corresponds to my opinions or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahahaha, nice try. Who defines "hate speech?" Are we so fragile that we need censors deciding for us what constitutes hate speech? No thanks.

I cannot see the censored article now,  so I cannot decide for myself if it constitutes "hate speech." This is the problem with censorship.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Whereas it is tolerant to allow them to allow people to disgrace people on the basis of their gender, sexual preference, race etc...?

Malcolm wrote:
Speech is either free, or it isn't.

Sherab Dorje said:
There is no such thing as free.  Everything comes at a cost.

Malcolm wrote:
I get it now. You support censorship of opinions not in accord with your own. Good to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I think it is a pretty fair assessment of his political threads.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not tolerant to shout down or marginalize people who are politically conservative.

Sherab Dorje said:
Whereas it is tolerant to allow them to allow people to disgrace people on the basis of their gender, sexual preference, race etc...?

Malcolm wrote:
Speech is either free, or it isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I take it that you did not see the last thread?


Malcolm wrote:
you mean this?

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=23504&p=352353#p352353

Sherab Dorje said:
Nope.  He started a thread in which he had a link to an article with a blanket condemnation of transgenderism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Some people think that it is wrong. They have a right to their opinion. They even have a right to express that opinion here, so I presume, unless we have become so dominated by EU PC nonsense that we no longer have the right to express opinions which do not fit the preconceptions of the moderating staff.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I think it is a pretty fair assessment of his political threads.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not tolerant to shout down or marginalize people who are politically conservative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, Nick's posts on the issues of transgenderism have been largely confined the trend in some areas to encourage children with gender dysmorphia to explore reassignment surgery. I agree with him that this is wrong headed.

Sherab Dorje said:
I take it that you did not see the last thread?


Malcolm wrote:
you mean this?

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=23504&p=352353#p352353


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is an absolutely unfair assessment of NIck's posting history.

Sherab Dorje said:
Not absolutely unfair.  I think it is a pretty fair assessment of his political threads.

Of course he does also contribute quite heavily to the Mahayana sections of the board.  Without a doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
It is absolutely unfair. Dan said:

Most of what you contribute, Nicholas, has nothing to do with Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, but not only that, you don't engage in discussion. So clearly this is not a good fit.
This is completely false. Therefore, it is absolutely unfair.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Dan74 said:
Most of what you contribute, Nicholas, has nothing to do with Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, but not only that, you don't engage in discussion. So clearly this is not a good fit.

If you find a forum with a subtitle that says "A soapbox for reactionaries who don't want to discuss but like to complain about all sorts of modern goings-on" that might be a perfect place for you.


Malcolm wrote:
This is an absolutely unfair assessment of NIck's posting history.

Dan74 said:
Then I apologise unreservedly and withdraw.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that you condemned him without even looking to see where and what he mostly posts about (sūtra studies). While it is true that of late he has posted on the issue of Transgender politics re: minors, in fact I agree with him that allowing minors to undergo elective gender reassignment surgery is quite wrong and misguided, not to mention the fact that from a BUDDHIST point of view, specifically, Abhidharma, it is not possible to change one's biological gender, whether male, female or intersexed. You cannot become a man by removing your breasts and sewing on a penis anymore than you can become a woman by taking hormones to grow breasts and castrating yourself. There is, in the women's community, a lot of discussion amongst women-born women about how to accommodate trans-women who will never (in this life) have the gendered experience of experiencing menstruation, childbirth and menopause, for example.

Having said this, I sympathize with people who experience gender dysmorphia, and if they are adults, it is not my job to approve or disapprove of their choices about lifestyle, surgery, and so on.

Nevertheless, Nick's posts on the issues of transgenderism have been largely confined to the trend in some areas to encourage children with gender dysmorphia to explore reassignment surgery. I agree with him that this is wrong headed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Fare Thee Well All
Content:
Dan74 said:
Most of what you contribute, Nicholas, has nothing to do with Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, but not only that, you don't engage in discussion. So clearly this is not a good fit.

If you find a forum with a subtitle that says "A soapbox for reactionaries who don't want to discuss but like to complain about all sorts of modern goings-on" that might be a perfect place for you.


Malcolm wrote:
This is an absolutely unfair assessment of NIck's posting history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddha in God realm?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Indra.

Losal Samten said:
Are you basing that on something higher than Sutra? Mipham says in his MAv commentary that "The majority of [third bhumi bodhisattvas] are born as "Indra" and they are able to draw their subjects out of the mud of desire".

Malcolm wrote:
Shitro.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Buddha in God realm?
Content:
Tirisilex said:
I heard that there is a Buddha in the God Realm trying to teach the Gods Buddhism. Anyone know what his name is?


Malcolm wrote:
Indra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I have nothing against DKR. Having an aversion to someone is quite different than disagreeing with their view on this or that point. He has a lot of responsibilities thrust upon him. I would not want to be him or anyone like him, ever. Being recognized a tulku is a sure fire way to make sure that subject of the recognition will never have their own life.

dzogchungpa said:
OK, you're off the hook. From now on, though, could you please write 'DJKR' instead of 'DKR'?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, when they update his name on his own website:

http://khyentsefoundation.org/about-us/

dzogchungpa said:
Khyentse Foundation is a nonprofit organization founded in 2001 by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche to support all traditions of Buddhist study and practice. Since 2001, the foundation has supported individuals and institutions in more than 30 countries and has directly affected the lives of people around the world. Khyentse Foundation activities include major text preservation and translation projects, support for traditional monastic colleges in Asia, a worldwide scholarship and awards program, academic development of Buddhist studies in major universities, training and development for Buddhist leaders and teachers, Buddhist education for children, support for individual study and retreats, and more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
While I certainly applaud his openness in allowing specialists in non=Buddhist traditions teach in depth presentations of their tenets where Buddhists can listen to them...

dzogchungpa said:
You're applauding something about DJKR?

Malcolm wrote:
I have nothing against DKR. Having an aversion to someone is quite different than disagreeing with their view on this or that point. He has a lot of responsibilities thrust upon him. I would not want to be him or anyone like him, ever. Being recognized a tulku is a sure fire way to make sure that subject of the recognition will never have their own life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sure, this is his opinion. I think he is completely wrong and overstating the case.

dzogchungpa said:
Understood, I just wanted people to see that I wasn't making it up.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, we know you are not making it up:

http://www.deerpark.in/programs/archive/the-vibration-of-consciousness-the-spanda-k-rik/

While I certainly applaud his openness in allowing specialists in non=Buddhist traditions teach in depth presentations of their tenets where Buddhists can listen to them, I think it is somewhat strange to make the unequivocal assertion that Trika (which has three different systems: kūla, spanda, and pratyabhijñā) and Vajrayāna are identical in meaning. And, I don't see any Bonpo teachers offering teachings there. Which is a bit strange because the first Khyentse was quite close to Bon. Bon and Vajrayāna are in fact identical in meaning. Bon needs more support that Trika.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2016 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
FWIW I recently heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, whose Deer Park Institute regularly holds courses and seminars on Kashmir Shaivism, say that it is "very, very identical" with Vajrayana Buddhism

Derek said:
I've been reading Part III of John Reynolds' The Golden Letters...

dzogchungpa said:
BTW, you can see/hear what I was referring to here:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


It should start at the right place, but if not it's at 6:55.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, this is his opinion. I think he is completely wrong and overstating the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Coping with Energetic Sensitivity
Content:
Footsteps said:
Some people are extremely sensitive to the energetic wavelengths around them...

How can a person overcome such sensitivities? What can one do to develop a better filter, or a better resistance to adverse effects of a given energetic landscape?

Malcolm wrote:
Such people have a vatta disorder. Treat accordingly.

Footsteps said:
How does one treat a vatta disorder?

Malcolm wrote:
see an ayurvedic specialist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
its clearly saying that the teacher induces in the students various experiences simply by placing his awareness in front of them.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not clearly saying this at all. Why? This translation, " Now place your awareness right in the space in front of you, steadily without modification, fixedly without wavering, and clearly without a meditative object." is slightly mistaken.

What it is in fact is an instruction for the students, as indicated by the plural tense of the Tibetan, to place their own rig pa in the sky before them
da khyed rang rnams rig pa mdun gyi nam mkha' la/ bzo med du ce re/ yengs med du hrig ge/ dmigs med du gsal le ba/ 'od ka'i ngang du zhog cig bya
"Now, you all [meaning the students] should look without artifice at [your] vidyā in the sky in front [of you]; vividly without distraction; clearly without support; resting in the state of radiance.
(nyi zla 'od zer . "dang po skye gnas bar do'i khrid yig kun gzhi rang grol ." In snyan brgyud khrid chen bcu gsum skor/. TBRC W30199. 7: 63 - 105. [kaH thog]: [kaH thog dgon pa], [2004?]. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O00JR968%7CO00JR96800JR513$W30199 )

I hope this clears that misconception away.

Whenever I find something a little strange in a translation, I go look at the original text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Non-Duality in Dzogchen vs Advaita Vedanta
Content:


Derek said:
5. Consciousness. In both traditions, the central focus is on consciousness, and in particular on pure consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the focus in Dzogchen is not on consciousness per se (the all-basis, the ālaya), it is on understanding the basis, which is inseparable emptiness and clarity.

Moreover, Trika is grounded in the modified Saṃkhya of the Shaiva tradition; whereas Dzogchen has its feet firmly planted in Abhidharma and Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
what about this passage from the kar gling zhi khro?:
Have all your pupils sit in front of you in the posture bearing the seven attributes of Vairocana. Now place your awareness right in the space in front of you, steadily without modification, fixedly without wavering, and clearly without a meditative object. While so doing, given the differences in intellect, in some, a nonconceptual, unmediated, conceptually unstructured reality will arise in their mind-streams. In some there will be a steadiness of awareness. In some, there will be a steady, natural luster of emptiness that is not an emptiness that is nothing; and there will arise a realization that this is awareness itself, it is the nature of the mind. In some, there will arise a sense of straightforward emptiness. In some, appearances and the mind will merge: appearances will not be left outside and awareness will not be left inside. There will arise a sense that they have become inseparably equalized. It is impossible that some such kind of experience will fail to occur.
( from "Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos" Wisdom Publications 1998, pg 120)

Malcolm wrote:
What about it? Experiences are always occurring, all the time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Who takes the empowerment? You do. Empowerment is just another form of teaching.

Sherab Dorje said:
Dude, with all respect, you've made your point.  Those that heard it and took it to heart... Those that didn't...  No need to flog a dead horse!

Malcolm wrote:
There is always a need to flog a dead horse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Is the gar asking to send email requests for permission to attend?

Malcolm wrote:
No, you register on the website.

Crazywisdom said:
Melong.com?


Malcolm wrote:
Dzamling gar website:

http://dzamlinggar.net/en/schedule/icalrepeat.detail/2016/12/28/6591/-/choegyal-namkhai-norbu-yangtig-retreat


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Oh yeah one of my lamas said blessings in Tilo's song means if you have respect for teacher, lineage and teachings, and put hard efforts into it then you get the result.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, blessings all come from you. Your respect, your efforts. Lamas can't do anything but give you teachings.

conebeckham said:
Though without empowerment, your respect and efforts are insufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
Who takes the empowerment? You do. Empowerment is just another form of teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
Is $1,500 enough to get me to Tenerife from Atlanta and back?
This is essentially all the money I have saved up, will just have to live at bare minimum for the next couple of months to add on to it.

Edit: Just looked at ticket prices, hotels, passports etc. I don't have a chance, enjoy.

Malcolm wrote:
Buy your plane ticket, start a go fund me. You will be able to find some place to stay with some kind person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Is the gar asking to send email requests for permission to attend?

Malcolm wrote:
No, you register on the website.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
krodha said:
Well I'm open to having misspoke. In the end all we can do is acknowledge that Rinpoche's students are big boys and girls who are capable of making the right decision for themselves, and hope they will do so.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very common thing in the community -- using personal communications with ChNN in the attempt to condition others.

krodha said:
Thanks, I wasn't aware it's common, luckily no one does this at our ling in Berkekey.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have ever been on the gakyil, you are more likely to experience this. I have seen every variety of trying to use ChNN's personal communications to manipulate others or promote one's own point of view. In general, I think it is disrespectful of CHNN, of others, and of the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
krodha said:
Come hell or high water I'll be in Tenerife in December. Hope to see some of you there.

Malcolm wrote:
See you there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
florin said:
But there is the undeniable fact that lots of rinpoches received whole cycles of advanced teachings when they were young and not yet ripe.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, like ChNN, by his own frequent admission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2016 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
krodha said:
.

Even if you don't plan to apply the teachings immediately, it is still good to receive it so you can when you are ready.

florin said:
As disappointing as it may seem, people shouldnt go if they are not ready .
I am afraid to say , rinpoche's advice does not allow for any interpretation.
I asked him a question about readiness and whether people can go to receive the teachings even if they are not ready  but only practice yangti when they are ready and he wasnt very pleased.
No means no.
That's  it.

krodha said:
Well I'm open to having misspoke. In the end all we can do is acknowledge that Rinpoche's students are big boys and girls who are capable of making the right decision for themselves, and hope they will do so.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very common thing in the community -- using personal communications with ChNN in the attempt to condition others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2016 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Coping with Energetic Sensitivity
Content:
Footsteps said:
Some people are extremely sensitive to the energetic wavelengths around them...

How can a person overcome such sensitivities? What can one do to develop a better filter, or a better resistance to adverse effects of a given energetic landscape?

Malcolm wrote:
Such people have a vatta disorder. Treat accordingly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2016 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2016 at 1:22 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is enough drama in the world, who needs more?

maybay said:
Asvaghosa, Abhinavagupta, Thangtong Gyalpo, Chogyam Trungpa, DJK, Ivo, Jundo Cohen, Kim, and me. And possibly Dzogchungpa.

Malcolm wrote:
Good luck.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 4th, 2016 at 1:22 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Devotion means you listen to their teachings, and then apply them. That's all. There  is nothing more to true devotion than this. The idea that devotion is this big emotional drama is immature.

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche said:
Recognize your essence in the moment of strong devotion, which is an emotion so powerful that tears come to our eyes and the hairs on the body stand on end. As the third Karmapa said, “In the moment of love, the empty essence dawns nakedly.”

Malcolm wrote:
If that is what turns you on. Seems like unnecessaty contrivance to me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body in Hindhuism
Content:
Rakz said:
Well according to Dzogchen every single living sentient being is already a rainbow body

florin said:
Yes that is how it is .
One just need to learn to distinguish between this body of light that is our five agregates and the unchangeable natural state and develop  capacity of how to rest in this state instead of the body of light.

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? You mean the five kāyas, five pristine consciousnesses, five lights, and so on are not our unchanging natural state?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
maybay said:
Another aspect of devotion with the intention of receiving blessings is the drama that it brings to the surface.

Malcolm wrote:
There is enough drama in the world, who needs more?




maybay said:
If you suspect that someone may have high realizations, and that they are in an extraordinary position to help beings such as yourself (where other learned teachers might just have stock teachings to impart), then devotion is an important way of framing your interactions. For example, with devotion, you are symbolically gesturing to the master that you see something in them beyond ordinary teachings. It is too often the case that teachers are approached by people with only a curious interest in them and their teachings. Devotion shows the master that you are not just taking another trip through the mall. Through acts of devotion you show you are prepared to commit to a practice, and therefore that they are not wasting their time imparting precious teachings instead of doing their own practice. Blessings, like merit, or even mundane currency, is an intangible and relative good of no ultimate value.

Malcolm wrote:
Devotion means you listen to their teachings, and then apply them. That's all. There  is nothing more to true devotion than this. The idea that devotion is this big emotional drama is immature.

maybay said:
A fraudulent teacher will not have the capacity to manage the intensified consciousness produced by devotion, and his organization will show obvious signs of corruption. These signs of corruption are not just an unfortunate by-product of what might have been. They are a valuable warning to anyone else looking to enter the community, and for those inside it too. The more one is familiar with what devotion is, how it works, and what it looks like when it goes wrong, the more you will be able to distinguish authentic and inauthentic Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
This is incredibly naive. It is also a horrible recommendation.

maybay said:
Devotion and the blessings that accrue should be seen as a practice. Something to be taken as seriously as any other practice. It is not a ticket to hysteria and forgetting oneself.

Malcolm wrote:
"Devotion" means practicing. "Blessings" means receiving teachings. Both only come from your side. If you don't receive teachings out of lack of interest, you can have all the emotional devotion you want, but you cannot practice. If you don't practice, you will experience no result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Oh yeah one of my lamas said blessings in Tilo's song means if you have respect for teacher, lineage and teachings, and put hard efforts into it then you get the result.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, blessings all come from you. Your respect, your efforts. Lamas can't do anything but give you teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
We need a rainbow body tally.

BTW ChNN says the GY in the Yangti-Shitro book is the most profound. In the end, the CN is like this.

Malcolm wrote:
Guru Yoga of White A and Ati Guru Yoga are not exactly the same.

The former (short form) is found in the Short Thun. The latter is the basis of all practices in the DC.

Crazywisdom said:
Referring to the triangle one... Is that what you meant?

Malcolm wrote:
The Guru Yoga of White A, the long form, is included in the collective practices book and the Shitro/Yanti book. This is the one of which ChNN has said belongs to anuyoga. I have some familiarity with it because I have done it in retreat and have received teachings on it (normal way in a group retreat).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
That's at the time of transfer. They talk of dharmakaya appearing as blueness and the form kayas are latent until sentient beings get involved when it can appear as any deity.

Malcolm wrote:
Also Saraha refutes this idea that Mahāmudra realization is the cesssation of perception:
“For the knowledge of the ultimate, oh sir, look with your eyes! I didn’t realize anything more than this. If you want realization, that is everything.”
Also Kotalipa:
“From looking with the eye organ, non-dual wisdom is amazing!”
Yangonpa, the famed Drukap Kagyu master states:

Luminous clarity is without appearances and free from extremes but mahāmudrā is fresh appearance and knowing, and because proliferation is self-liberated, it is different than luminous clarity.
He continues:

That is not the objects of focus or the creation of a deity form, luminous clarity, or emptiness,  bliss, non-conceptuality, and so on. There might be a deity form, there might be a ghost. There might be bliss, there might be suffering. There might be appearances, there might be emptiness. There might be luminous clarity, [5/a] there might be signs. There might be conceptuality, there might be non-conceptuality, whatever it may be, it is not established in truth. It is enough in its own state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Correct about what the book says. He's comparing against other cycles and wondering why CN gives a faster schedule than others. The only diff he saw was emphasis on guru, where it goes with Vimalamitra and then to CSW.

Malcolm wrote:
The Chetsun Nyinthig is not a Dzogchen practice, per se. It is a practice of anuyoga, supporting man ngag sde practice. It has some very brief instructions on rushen, trekchö and thögal, but very brief. Khenpo Namdrol might still be trapped in cause and effect vehicles, or he thinks that is what is useful for people, like ChNN.

The most effective practice is Ati Guru Yoga, ChNN style.

Crazywisdom said:
We need a rainbow body tally.

BTW ChNN says the GY in the Yangti-Shitro book is the most profound. In the end, the CN is like this.

Malcolm wrote:
Guru Yoga of White A and Ati Guru Yoga are not exactly the same.

The former (short form) is found in the Short Thun. The latter is the basis of all practices in the DC.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Khenpo Namdrol explained the Chetsun Nyimgthig's promise of a swifter realization of rainbow body than other Dzogchen cycles is its emphasis on guru devotion. He said, other than that, it's not that different from other cycles. Perception of wisdom is being asserted as the slower way to go.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no. Chetsun says in the cycle, that meditating on him is the most effective way in this day and age:
“E ma, e ma! Later on in the future, if yogis practicing the essential meaning of the Heart Essence wish for liberation in this life, they should meditate on me, Chetsun Siṃheśvara.
This means doing the full sadhana, not just the ngondro.

Crazywisdom said:
Correct about what the book says. He's comparing against other cycles and wondering why CN gives a faster schedule than others. The only diff he saw was emphasis on guru, where it goes with Vimalamitra and then to CSW.

Malcolm wrote:
The Chetsun Nyinthig is not a Dzogchen practice, per se. It is a practice of anuyoga, supporting man ngag sde practice. It has some very brief instructions on rushen, trekchö and thögal, but very brief. Khenpo Namdrol might still be trapped in cause and effect vehicles, or he thinks that is what is useful for people, like ChNN.

The most effective practice is Ati Guru Yoga, ChNN style.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Reminder: Cessation of perception is what is being asserted as buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
In Hinayāna and Mahāyāna, perhaps. Not Vajrayāna, and definitely not Dzogchen.

Crazywisdom said:
It's in Tilo's song. And that's what the 4th vision is, cessation of phenomena, clarity or whatever. Some say there's a color... But that's about it...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no cessation of perception in the fourth vision. Concerning this Shabkar writes:

It so happens that in the past some pracititioners of the Great Perfection
have asserted that the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses
do not exist within the state of original purity, but this is great error.
And:
The way that great transference body arises:
when all visions have gradually been exhausted,
when one focuses one’s consciousness on the appearances strewn about
on the luminous maṇḍala of the five fingers of one’s hand,
the environment and inhabitants of the universe
returning from that appearance are perceived as like the moon in the water.
One’s body is just a reflection,
self-apparent as the illusory body of pristine consciousness;
externally and internally pellucid; free from being harmed by the four elements;
one obtains a vajra-like body.
One sees one’s body as transparent inside and out. 
The impure eyes of others cannot see one’s body as transparent, 
but only the body as it was before;
for example, when the hand of Mutri Tsanpo touched
the body of Master Padmasambhava,
according to account of their meeting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


conebeckham said:
Who am I to know? I was just repeating the words of my Kagyu masters.  I will grant that it comes across as somewhat triumphalist.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people like devotion. I prefer direct perception.


Crazywisdom said:
Khenpo Namdrol explained the Chetsun Nyimgthig's promise of a swifter realization of rainbow body than other Dzogchen cycles is its emphasis on guru devotion. He said, other than that, it's not that different from other cycles. Perception of wisdom is being asserted as the slower way to go.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no. Chetsun says in the cycle, that meditating on him is the most effective way in this day and age:
“E ma, e ma! Later on in the future, if yogis practicing the essential meaning of the Heart Essence wish for liberation in this life, they should meditate on me, Chetsun Siṃheśvara.
This means doing the full sadhana, not just the ngondro.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Reminder: Cessation of perception is what is being asserted as buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
In Hinayāna and Mahāyāna, perhaps. Not Vajrayāna, and definitely not Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


conebeckham said:
Who am I to know? I was just repeating the words of my Kagyu masters.  I will grant that it comes across as somewhat triumphalist.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people like devotion. I prefer direct perception.


maybay said:
I like both.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
That's an interesting theory. But how do you support that? BTW if they Vajradhara isn't being identified as the guru, there's no blessing going to happen and the winds entering the heart will cause anger. It's not that one prays to anyone as a Buddha. Or just prays to Buddha. It has to be a lineage teacher as Vajradhara.

Malcolm wrote:
Or Sakya Paṇḍita, or Guru Rinpoche, or Tsongkhapa, or anyone else you believe has reached Buddhahood.

For myself, I prefer to visualize a white A in a thigle, since I think this is more direct. But the principle is the same. And by the way, I don't mean the heart organ -- if vatta enters that, it is a big problem, so called snying rlung; I mean in the heart center, the center of the body, below the heart and above the diaphragm, roughly between T9 and T8.

Crazywisdom said:
Tilopa just meant your heart, as in deep.

Malcolm wrote:
You can understand it that way, if you choose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Vasana said:
I'll look up how to do that. For now, I've edited that post and quoted the excerpt in question from Merton.

Malcolm wrote:
https://tinyurl.com


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Vasana said:
A passage from Merton quoted in the foreword/Intro to Chattel Rinpoche's book, Compassionate action

[url]htps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZlucT_y2C-sC&pg=PA10&dq=thomas+merton+chatral&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH5InUlPHOAhXL3SwKHfWJCiUQuwUIGTAC#v=snippet&q=thomas%20merton%20&f=false[/url]


Malcolm wrote:
Use a tiny URL


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:



Vasana said:
Dzogchen master Chatral Rinpoche and Catholic contemplative Thomas Merton got along very well and were apparently both quite impressed with each other too.

dzogchungpa said:
Yes, apparently Merton was not hurtin', spiritually speaking.

Vasana said:
Ha! Agreed.

Interestingly enough;

Yet, the most influential contact he [Merton] made was with the Buddhist teacher, Chatral Rinpoche, a monk who had spent more than thirty years in the solitary contemplation that was Merton's only real home in this world. It was Chatral Rinpoche who identified Merton as a pratyekabhudda, and with whom Merton would take a variant of the Boddhisatva's vows, in which he dedicated himself to do all he could to reach enlightenment for the benefit of all beings, in this lifetime or the next.

From :
http://spiritualnotreligious.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/thomas-merton-encounter-with-buddhism.html?m=1

Malcolm wrote:
Hahahahaha, whoever wrote this blog however is an ignoramus:
The Buddha consistently said that his path was not the only path to enlightenment, and that every being must find his own path.
In fact the Buddha said the opposite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
conebeckham said:
In my tradition, we say that "direct perception" or "naked seeing" can be best achieved if one places one's mind in a state of intense devotion, intense compassion, or intense bliss.  It's about praxis.  The goal is the same.  Devotion on it's own is nice, but it's a means.....

Malcolm wrote:
In my tradition we say that direct perception is best achieved through direct introduction. But we may mean different direct perceptions. Caveat emptor always applies.

conebeckham said:
Indeed! We say direct introduction can be best given in the states mentioned, FWIW.....in fact, Shangpa Ga'uma works exactly that way. Kamtsang also has their methods of "pointing out" that are related to Tantric practice, and the Completion stage, separate from ChagChen Ngedon Gyamtso's path.  But who knows if the object being pointed to is the same?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, it means direct perception of the clarity and empty aspects of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
So it is roughly at the level of the xyphoid process, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2016 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Jesus, what is T8 and T9? You do not mean thoraic vertebrae, do you?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, between those, in the center of the body. This is the rough location of the heart cakra.

treehuggingoctopus said:
As shown here? Roughly three-four fingers above the navel:



Lovely. I have been doing it wrong for almost a decade now

Malcolm wrote:
As shown there, T5 or so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: First words of Buddha after enligghtenment
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The first words of the Buddha after awakening are reported in the Lalitavistara Sūtra:

The ambrosial Dharma I obtained is
profound, immaculate, luminous, and unconditioned. 
Even if I explain it, no one will understand.
I think I shall remain silent in the forest.
That which is free from words cannot be understood through words,
likewise, the nature of phenomena is like space, 
totally free of the movements of mind and intellect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


conebeckham said:
Who am I to know? I was just repeating the words of my Kagyu masters.  I will grant that it comes across as somewhat triumphalist.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people like devotion. I prefer direct perception.


conebeckham said:
In my tradition, we say that "direct perception" or "naked seeing" can be best achieved if one places one's mind in a state of intense devotion, intense compassion, or intense bliss.  It's about praxis.  The goal is the same.  Devotion on it's own is nice, but it's a means.....

Malcolm wrote:
In my tradition we say that direct perception is best achieved through direct introduction. But we may mean different direct perceptions. Caveat emptor always applies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And by the way, I don't mean the heart organ -- if vatta enters that, it is a big problem, so called snying rlung; I mean in the heart center, the center of the body, below the heart and above the diaphragm, roughly between T9 and T8.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Jesus, what is T8 and T9? You do not mean thoraic vertebrae, do you?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, between those, in the center of the body. This is the rough location of the heart cakra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


conebeckham said:
Who am I to know? I was just repeating the words of my Kagyu masters.  I will grant that it comes across as somewhat triumphalist.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people like devotion. I prefer direct perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Kagyu believe in using two accumulations. Also in devotion being the best way to realization, as in the stanza from Tilopa about guru's blessing entering your heart. They are visualizing the guru as vajradhara when praying. Tilo also mentions followers of sutras and tantras can't realize Mahamudra.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the Kagyus are Kadampa Gradualists. No problem with that.

Tilopa's stanza refers to i) doctrine from the Guhyasamaja, that a very effective way to cause the winds to enter the central channel is to focus on the anahata bindu ( mi shig thig le ) in the heart, visualized in the form of the guru. It actually has nothing to do with devotion, but everything to do with yogic praxis. ii) it refers to the fact that guru yoga is, for many people, a faster path than the two stages.

Crazywisdom said:
That's an interesting theory. But how do you support that? BTW if they Vajradhara isn't being identified as the guru, there's no blessing going to happen and the winds entering the heart will cause anger. It's not that one prays to anyone as a Buddha. Or just prays to Buddha. It has to be a lineage teacher as Vajradhara.

Malcolm wrote:
Or Sakya Paṇḍita, or Guru Rinpoche, or Tsongkhapa, or anyone else you believe has reached Buddhahood.

For myself, I prefer to visualize a white A in a thigle, since I think this is more direct. But the principle is the same. And by the way, I don't mean the heart organ -- if vatta enters that, it is a big problem, so called snying rlung; I mean in the heart center, the center of the body, below the heart and above the diaphragm, roughly between T9 and T8.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 2nd, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Even the Buddha couldn't do that
Content:
conebeckham said:
Malcolm, why do you single out the Kagyupas? I'm not butt-hurt, lol, but curious!

Malcolm wrote:
Because they single themselves out. For example, Gyalpo Rinpoche writes:
The manner of explaining the strength, definition and qualities, and the view, meditation and behavior of devotion, etc., in this lineage does not resemble others...
He explained that devotion was a special point of the Kagyu lineage, following Dgongs gcig:
Devotion alone is the method of giving rise to all realization.
He polemically responds to Sakya Paṇḍita, saying the following:

How can there be any doubt, therefore, that supplication to the victorious fathers and sons of the Kagyus will cause the blessings to enter?
And then going on the quote Karma Chagme:
Because a Guru possessing all qualifications today is rare, supplicating the lineage of the victorious fathers and sons of the Kagyus is good on its own. The activity of the Buddhas arrives because of their intent.
So that is why I singled out the Kagyus.


