﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2012 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma
Content:
tobes said:
If anyone is interested in a devastating refutation of this strange strawman distinction - that there are coherent and unified things called 'western' and 'Islamic' civilisations - please pm me, and I'll attach the scholarly article.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, there isn't. There is just an economic struggle happening, and different ideological groups seeking to control resources for their own propagation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2012 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Advice by Lunations
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It goes by the four or six seasons. The end of a lunar month is considered the new moon, not the full moon.

Virgo said:
Thanks for the correction, Malcolm.  In Tibetan Astrology is the full moon considered a time when things (projects, ideas, and so forth) come to a certain culmination? (I know it is in Vedic and Western)  If so, as a Menpa would you think that is a way to mark time (so to speak), in a way, of when doshas are effected on a more minute level than on a seasonal level (even though of course it is a gradual process, happening moment to moment)?   I would just like your thoughts on this, please.

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
The full moon represents the end of the monthly cycle of flourishing which begins with the cycle of the waxing moon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2012 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Advice by Lunations
Content:
Virgo said:
A calander year contains either three or four seasons, depending on how the seasons are split up or reckoned.  Whether it is reckoned as three or four seasons, a calander year still consist of twelve complete lunations or moon cycles.  Sometimes (every 2 - 3 years), there is an additional moon cycle in a calander year, because the length of lunations varies depending on how close the moon is to the earth at any given time at which it cycles, as well as other reasons.

I know that advice is given in Tibetan Medicine for diet and lifestyle by season.  The reason being that certain elements are dominant during certain seasons and this can disturb humours, effect digestion, etc.-- we accumulate certain things more at certain times.  However, I also know that ancient people marked time by lunar phases.  Specifically, the full moon (the end of a lunation) is the time where things come to completion.  So, I was wondering if there is any extant advice for diet, behavior, cleanses etc., taught by lunations, that is to say for each of the individual 12 moon cycles in a calander year (whether over 3 or 4 seasons).

Thanks,

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
It goes by the four or six seasons. The end of a lunar month is considered the new moon, not the full moon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 31st, 2012 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Bon Phurpa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of interest as well:

http://blogs.orient.ox.ac.uk/kila/2012/04/27/the-great-khu-tsha-zla-od/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Different Taras
Content:


Konchog1 said:
BUT, then why are there separate empowerments and mantras for White Tara and Kurukulle?

Malcolm wrote:
Different lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: psychedelics and visions
Content:
Nighthawk said:
How important and widespread is the use of psychedelics such as datura in order to have visions of Vajrayoginis, Dakinis, Taras etc. amongst Vajrayana masters and practitioners? Are these visions to be seen as genuine spiritual experiences or just mere hallucinations of the mind on drugs? I would love to hear your opinions on this matter.


Malcolm wrote:
In general there is no use of hallucinogens in Varjayāna. Even in the case of certain exceptions, these usages are no longer current i.e. they are not part of the living tradition. Where they were used, hallucinogens served only to demonstrate that the mind was not a fixed substance.

People who have used hallucinogens can understand their experiences with this in this respect. Garab Dorje clearly states in one commentary that hallucinogens merely generate worldly visions. So from a Vajrayāna perspective, hallucinogens do not have much, if any, spiritual value.

That being said, this is not to deny the value of the spritual traditions of Huichol Indians, or Ayahuasca shamans who commune with plant spirits, etc.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Blue Garuda said:
My understanding is that as both are forms of Dark Blue Garuda from the same terma, the donwang for one of them grants permission for the practice  of both, together with the medicinal practices and mantras.

Malcolm wrote:
They are separate empowerments completely, albeit from the same overall cycle of teachings.

Rinpoche has regularly been giving the lung main mantra for Khyung nag since last year.

Retreat on either form of garuda, or even having completed the three roots recitation, is sufficient for reciting the action mantras, etc.

Blue Garuda said:
Thanks for the clarification.

If you have attended the recent retreat on Takhyung KIlaya and have the lung for Khyung nag main mantra then you can use both main mantras ?

Malcolm wrote:
You can use either, as you wish. The sngags 'bum actually contains the root mantra of the Lama Zabdon cycle, which is not connected with either of these deities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:


Lhug-Pa said:
Yangtso, how do you explain the Merotic (as opposed to Nilotic) features of many ancient depictions of Buddhas around the world?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha statues in Cambodia show Cambodian features. Some black nationalists have decided this proved Buddha was a negro. It is a very silly idea.

Anyone who has studied the history of Buddhist statuary knows there are two sculptural traditions of Buddha statues, Gandharan and Mathuran. The Mathuran tradition is a little later, and is the ancestor of all Theravadin traditions of Buddhist statuary. The Gandharan tradition is the prototype for all Chinese and Mahayāna traditions.

Cambodians are Australasiatics, and their art reflects their ethnicity.

But Negros do not universally have flat faces, thick lips and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
"The religion of Buddha, of India, is well known to have been very ancient. In the most ancient temples scattered throughout Asia, where his worship is yet continued, he is found black as jet, with the flat face, thick lips, and curly hair of the Negro."

"Stonehenge...temple of the black, curly-headed Buddha." - Master Mason Godfrey Higgins

Malcolm wrote:
This citation is obvious nonsense, and racist to boot.

The Masons don't know shit about Buddhadharma, whatever other "mysteries" they may claim to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What HH Dalai Lama and Berzin are quoted as saying is factually incorrect. Vasubandhu says nothing about homosexuality per se.


Lhug-Pa said:
Well I actually meant to refer to the behavior itself, and not necessarily the 'orientation' alone.

Although, I'm quite sure that H.H. the Dalai Lama never implied that masturbation is not sexual misconduct for non-monks.


Also, from Berzin-Archives:


Alexander Berzin said:
Since both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism base their practice of ethical self-discipline on Vasubandhu's texts, their lineages still include homosexuality in their lists of inappropriate sexual behavior.

Lhug-Pa said:
And:

H.H. the Dalai Lama said:
It's part of what we Buddhists call 'bad sexual conduct.' Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand.

Lhug-Pa said:
"Reproduction" here can also refer to the Spiritual Reproduction or Regeneration that results from Karmamudra practice, not only physically making children; otherwise H.H. the Dalai Lama would not teach about Karmamudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Why would H.H. the Dalai Lama, as a Dzogchenpa, say that homosexuality is sexual misconduct if it were not?


Malcolm wrote:
He never said such a thing.

He merely stated that using certain orifices is sexual misconduct. Masturbation, he stated, was sexual misconduct only for monks.

There is no teaching anywhere, in any vinaya pitika, sutra or tantra, that states that homesexuality i.e. same sex gender orientation, is "sexual misconduct".

You need to learn the distinction between gender orientation and sexual activity.

According to the traditional teachings anal or oral sex (ears, etc., are also included here under the general connotation of wrong orifice) is sexual misconduct whether done with a man or a woman.

Masturbation, for lay people, is not included in sexual misconduct.

By the way, your sig is incredibly racist and factually wrong.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Blue Garuda said:
My understanding is that as both are forms of Dark Blue Garuda from the same terma, the donwang for one of them grants permission for the practice  of both, together with the medicinal practices and mantras.

Malcolm wrote:
They are separate empowerments completely, albeit from the same overall cycle of teachings.

Rinpoche has regularly been giving the lung main mantra for Khyung nag since last year.

Retreat on either form of garuda, or even having completed the three roots recitation, is sufficient for reciting the action mantras, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dronma said:
It is confusing! Isn't it?
[/color]


Malcolm wrote:
He did not give the transmission for the snags 'bum which contains the action mantras during last year's retreat. This year, he gave the so called snags 'bum lung during the Moscow retreat, but he had already given the whole lung for the medicine tantra which contains many mantras many of which are also in the snags 'bum. This time he gave the lung for the mantras in the snags 'bum of Lama Zabdon as well as the remaning mantras in the medicine tantra. The release of the book was timed to coincide with the conclusion of this retreat.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dronma said:
Yes, I read the announcement in Norbunet as well. 
In this case, SSI must clear up why someone had to be present during the retreat in Merigar West and it is not enough to have received that transmission only through the webcast οf last year, while the transmission from Kunsangar North is enough to have been received only through webcast this year.    
I never heard such announcement by Rinpoche himself. He always says that transmissions through any webcast are enough for practising any mantra. 
It is confusing! Isn't it?

Pero said:
The mantras weren't transmitted over the webcast last year, neither was there a donwang.


Dronma said:
I don't remember now what was or was not transmitted during the retreat of the last year, and it is not that I don't believe you, but it is something that SSI must write clearly. 
Don't you think so?


Malcolm wrote:
It was not because I wrote ChNN about it last year and while the teachings about Garuda were webcast, the empowerment and the transmission of the mantras were not.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
arsent said:
arsent wrote:
There is a new book and ebook available from European SSI bookstore related to the last dark Garuda practice teachings retreat.
http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=491 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Important note by SSI about this book:
The Practice and Action Mantras of Dark Garuda is reserved for those who have received the direct transmission of these mantras from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu and were thus physically present at the Dark Garuda retreat at Merigar West on the days when the mantras were transmitted or at a later retreat on this Dark Garuda practice.
from Norbunet today's list: "The Practice and Action Mantras of Dark Garuda is available for all practitioners who received the related transmission from the Master.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu gave the transmission of the practice at Merigar West in August 2011 and during the closed webcast from Kunsangar North on July 25 to 29, 2012.

To be eligible to do this practice and read the book, you must have been present at Merigar West on the day when the mantras were transmitted during the August 2011 retreat or listening to the webcast from Kunsangar North on July 27, 2012.

If you wish to purchase the booklet and CD or ebook and downloadable MP3, please log in to our webshop at http://www.shanghungstore.org " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. These product are for personal use only and cannot be reproduced in any form.

Although there are differences in the two practices and Rinpoche transmitted a different root mantra for the two teachings, he has confirmed that the eligibility extends to those who participated in the mantra transmission of either teaching.

"


Dronma said:
Yes, I read the announcement in Norbunet as well. 
In this case, SSI must clear up why someone had to be present during the retreat in Merigar West and it is not enough to have received that transmission only through the webcast οf last year, while the transmission from Kunsangar North is enough to have been received only through webcast this year.    
I never heard such announcement by Rinpoche himself. He always says that transmissions through any webcast are enough for practising any mantra. 
It is confusing! Isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
Last year's transmission of Khyung Nag could not be given as a donwang -- Rinpoche mentioned this during the Moscow retreat a couple of days ago. However, he was able to give Takhyung as a donwang. In any case, the medicine tantra has a homage to Takhyung in the very introduction, so the Takhyung practice is more closely related with the transmission in the Srog sman tantra he gave last year in Moscow than the Khyung nag practice he gave in Merigar last year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2012 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:


Lhug-Pa said:
With masturbation or anal sex there's no contact between opposite poles.

Malcolm wrote:
You do understand that jñānamudra practice for monks or single yogis (male or female) involves masturbation?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2012 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Renunciation
Content:
JKhedrup said:
With words I am always interested in how the Tibetan gives it, because there can sometimes be several different English translations for the same word. In Tibetan nges par 'byung ba is the word that is often translated into English as renunication. In fact if you break down the world nges par is "definitely" and byung ba is emerge, hence another translation is definite emergence.
To me this carries a connotation of definitely wanting to emerge from, to get out of, that which binds us, and to eventually leave samsara behind.

Malcolm wrote:
nges par 'byung ba = niḥsaraṇaḥ

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

1	niHsaraNa	n. going forth or out MBh. Pan5c. ; issue , egress , gate L. ; means , expedient , remedy to get rid of (comp.) MBh. ; departure , death final beatitude L. ; %{-vat} (%{niH-sa4r-}) mfn. flowing out , liquid S3Br.
2	niHsAraNa	n. turning out , expelling Ra1jat. ; egress or road of egress L.



The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary.

Nissaraṇa
Nissaraṇa (nt.) [Sk. niḥsaraṇa, to nis+sarati, cp. BSk. nissaraṇa giving up (?) AvŚ ii.193] going out, departure; issue, outcome, result; giving up, leaving behind, being freed, escape (fr. saŋsāra), salvation Vin i.104; D iii.240, 248 sq.; S i.128, 142; ii.5; iii.170 (catunnaŋ dhātūnaŋ); iv.7 sq. (id.); v.121 sq.; A i.258, 260; ii.10 (kāmānaŋ etc.); iii.245 sq.; iv.76 (uttariŋ); v.188; M i.87 (kāmānaŋ), 326 (uttariŋ); iii.25; It 37, 61; Ps ii.180, 244; Vbh 247; Vism 116; ThA 233; DhsA 164; Sdhp 579. Cp. nissaṭa & nissaraṇīya.
-- dassin wise in knowing results, prescient, able to find a way to salvation S iv.205; -- pañña (adj.)=˚dassin D i.245 (a˚); iii.46; S ii.194; iv.332; A v.178 (a˚), 181 sq.; Miln 401.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
As others have also pointed out, ChNN is giving direct introduction ridiculously often... I can only think of one webcast in the last year when he didn't give it, and it was announced beforehand that it was a general public teaching and not a transmission. WWT is only as special as all of Rinpoche's other webcasts and vice versa.



Malcolm wrote:
A bit of history is in order:

Originally, we practiced the Guru Yoga of White A on Garab Dorje's anniversary at the same time, around the world, on the hour of Garab Dorje's birth. We also did the same Padmasambhava guru yoga of medium thun for Padmasambhava and Adzom Drugpa's anniversary. We did this because if the importance of these three holidays for practitioners in the DC.

Then, in the late 90's, Rinpoche instituted the WWT with videos, using a video to synchronize practitioners so he could give DI, stating that introduction is beyond the limits of distance -- i.e. just as long as practitioners where present following the tape, and he was following the tape, direction introduction was occuring. The reason was that he was trying to make it possible for interested newcomers to receive transmission even if they could not immediately attend a retreat.

With the advent of the webcasts, he was able to switch live broadcasts of the WWT on these three important anniversay days.

Ultimately, the import of WWT is to do Guru Yoga at these special times with the whole community around the world, and not just to receive DI.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nonetheless, Guru P was a buddha way before any of his consorts were. They obviously were not at the same level.

deepbluehum said:
Liberated does not equal fully awakened.

I would not regard Namthars written by disciples as accurate reports of the level of realization of this or that person.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't need to get hung up on stupid details. It's just an example. It's simple logic. Guru P was enlightened before he got with Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal. So...[/quote]
According to their namthars both M and Yt were emanations also...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:


deepbluehum said:
But if you want to use your version, the sisters were liberated and Milarepa was on the path, so again, they weren't on the same level.

Nonetheless, Guru P was a buddha way before any of his consorts were. They obviously were not at the same level.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberated does not equal fully awakened.

I would not regard Namthars written by disciples as accurate reports of the level of realization of this or that person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Sex and the Lama
Content:
deepbluehum said:
What it's meant is that both have received HYT empowerments.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what is meant that they are on the same stage i.e. path of application or seeing, etc.

The Tseringma sisters are not worldly deities, they were liberated by Guru P.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: How can Zen be considered it's own thing...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="/johnny\"]what is truly unique that it MUST come directly from the mouth of a teacher?[/quote]


Experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2012 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: What's up with Phantom59
Content:
Stewart said:
I'm not sure how others check Dharmawheel, but I always start with 'view active topics'... sometimes phantom59 has posted half a dozen or so topics and I have to scroll through all the bumph to get to the threads I am interested in..

Can we poll people to see if they want it blocked or not?

9 times out of 10 the link takes you to a page with the exact same quote and little else! It's pointless, I have rarely seen anything of interest on them.


Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. P59 is taking up bandwidth in a rather useless way. He should stick to phayul.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2012 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Drug relapse leads to broken Samaya?
Content:
CrawfordHollow said:
OK, thanks,

so where is the line drawn?  It seems that maybe samaya is not as cut and dry as a Hinayana vow, which is perhaps more confinded within the dualism of right/wrong or good/bad.  Does the samaya depend more on my state of mind than my actions?  At this point I am truly interested because in my experience teachers haven't explained this after they gave empowerments.  It seems that I may be dwelling on the situation a little too much, at first I was afraid that I had lost or damaged the transmissions somehow.

Troy


Malcolm wrote:
Breaking samaya means you don't care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2012 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Drug relapse leads to broken Samaya?
Content:
CrawfordHollow said:
I know nothing about the self-initiation practice, I always thought thats what lamas did before they gave empowerments.  If someone could please inform me about samaya.  I heard Malcom say on DW that if we broke our samaya we would know it.  What happens to the transmissions when our samaya is damaged?  How exactly do we break samaya?  Did this little (big) slip up of mine damage my samaya?  Any help would be great, I don't have access to my lamas right now, so asking more experinenced practicioners on this board is the next best thing, I guess.

Thanks,
Troy


Malcolm wrote:
Making mistakes is not breaking samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2012 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
In replacing Guru Tragphur with Dorje Drollo in, say, the Short Tun, does he act as a direct substitute in the waxing moon phase, or does he also substitute for Simhamukha in the waning phase.

It seems that Yidam practices begin in a similar way to the Tun and continue into the natural state, so presumably the Yidam practice of Dorje Drollo or Guru Tragphur do so as well.  I'm assuming this is quite different from their role in the Tun?

Malcolm wrote:
Direct substitute.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2012 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
username said:
ChNNR specifically said people organizing and inviting him for teaching around the world are specially advised to do Dorje Drollo.

Malcolm wrote:
Not that this is a bad idea, but he only gave this transmission once, this year, prior to losar -- so when did he say this -- I do not recall him saying this, but then my memory is not perfect, nor my attention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 26th, 2012 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: DC Practice Recommendation for Someone with Liver Failure
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
Thanks.

Has ChNNR ever given donwang for the White Garuda he mentions?

In terms of performing the Garuda practice for a sick person, before using the relevant Action Mantra, how much practice should be done with the main mantra?

If the guy needs help right now, will confidence in the main mantra suffice?

Malcolm wrote:
Main mantra includes all action mantras. However, you do the main mantra for a while in a qualified way -- one to three weeks, then you apply action mantra, if it works, than that is enough

In general, black garuda is connected with the cycle of teachings of which the srog sman medicine tantra is a part. So ChNN will give all action mantras related to that tantra this weekend. Last year he gave the lung for the whole tantra.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: DC Practice Recommendation for Someone with Liver Failure
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Does blue or red make a difference?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, Mandarava for reinforcing lifeforce, garuda for eliminating disease, lots of mantra of five elements also. Either Garuda practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
tamm said:
I already sent a small note over to Blue Garuda about this, but thought it would hurt to ask here too; but do you guys think there is a way to get a membership set up and going soon enough to do the retreat things this week? I know it's super late in the game here and I did already email the webcast team, but the email I got back just didn't make sense to me.
So sorry for all the trauma!


Malcolm wrote:
If you live near a center or a gar, you should be able to attend in person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: DC Practice Recommendation for Someone with Liver Failure
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Of the DC methods that help with health, which one would be best for someone with liver failure? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Shitro.

M

deepbluehum said:
What if the liver is not completely failed, they are back to work and they are testing to see if he will need a transplant?

Malcolm wrote:
Probably garuda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: DC Practice Recommendation for Someone with Liver Failure
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Of the DC methods that help with health, which one would be best for someone with liver failure? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Shitro.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
pemachophel said:
The story I read in Bhutan when getting ready to visit Parao Taktshang was that Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe Tshogyal were in eastern Tibet practicing in retreat there. Yeshe Tshogyal saw that there were demons in western Bhutan that needed subduing. She urged Guru Rinpoche to go and do something about this. He did not. Yeshe Tshogyal got more and more impatient and insistent. She eventually transformed into a tigress to fly to western Bhutan to do something Herself. At that point, Guru Rinpoche mounted the tigress and They flew together to Paro Taktshang, etc., etc., etc. However, I also think I have heard that the tigress was a Bon deity (possibly from Lama Dawa Chodak).

Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount.


Malcolm wrote:
I was not insisting it was the only account, merely the account I heard from one source.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
mutsuk said:
Maybe, but then you should understand that it's not the way it is for Bonpos. Ati Muwer is a peaceful dharmakaya form. THere is no other Ati Muwer in Bon...and no tiger around him.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, I do understand that. Prior to this conversation, I had no idea. I am not an expert in Bon.

But it is a fact that Drollo's mount Ati Muwer was identified for me by ChNN as Ati Muwer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Relationships With Non-Buddhists
Content:
underthetree said:
relationships with non-practitioners tend to be fraught with differing values and life-goals.
As do all relationships, really. A relationship between two practitioners would be just as fraught when it came to worldly concerns, I'd have thought.

But I have no idea. You may very well be right. For me, my marriage - along with my family, my work and the rest of it - is part of my practice. I can't conceive of it any other way.


Malcolm wrote:
We should work with circumstances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Relationships With Non-Buddhists
Content:


underthetree said:
Do you really think not, Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
I really think it is better for practitoners to be be partners with other practitioners. Of course, we should work with circumstances -- but in my life I have found that relationships with non-practitioners tend to be fraught with differing values and life-goals.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
mutsuk said:
I don't think so...

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with ChNN. The only time I have ever heard the name "Ati Muwer" is in connection with Drollo, as his mount. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Relationships With Non-Buddhists
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Hi,
I just moved in with my (non-Buddhist) girlfriend, and we have been arguing a lot.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, it never really works with non-practitioners. Better for you to find someone in your sangha or a least another practitioner.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

mutsuk said:
However, it's pretty unlikely that it is named Ati Muwer.

Malcolm wrote:
Its name is Ati Muwer. I have heard Norbu Rinpoche discuss this on more than one occasion.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Discussion on Aversion
Content:
dharmagoat said:
I was questioning whether it is healthy to cultivate aversion, considering the emphasis Buddhism places on its being unhealthy. The consensus seems to be that for some cultivating aversion to samsara is more helpful than it is unhealthy, and I will go along with that.

Blue Garuda said:
I think it can easily be overdone, as I posted earlier. I've seen beginners leave after a few sessions when they were unfortunate enough to join the class when death and samsaric rebirth were topics.

One left for another reason, quote:  'That silly bugger is telling me I'm going to be reborn as a dog!'

Sometimes, when we understand the context ourselves, we forget how it appears to newcomers.

Negative teaching is a bit like:  'Do you want the bad news first.....................or the bad news first! '

We can't all be inspiring teachers, I guess.

Malcolm wrote:
It is better to start with "your primordial state is perfect...." and then go from there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2012 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
kirtu said:
unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, her first heat ever.


dakini_boi said:
This is interesting.  What is the term in Tibetan, and why is it usually understood as "pregnant?"

Malcolm wrote:
The term is sbrum which has two meanings 1) A pregnant woman 2) A lustful woman.

The term refers to the second sense. Since tigeresses are only lustful when they are in heat, and since in many sadhanas the tigress is termed gzhon nu i.e. young, hence the oral communication indicates that the tigress in question is experiencing her first heat and is in a fit of crazed lust. If you have ever seen a cat go through her first heat, then you will understand better.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 24th, 2012 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
kirtu said:
unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, her first heat ever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya
Content:
muni said:
sparks. To show how truly crazy he is, he dances on the back of a pregnant tigress...

Malcolm wrote:
One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Two, the tigress is not pregnant, she is in her first heat -- oral communication, Khenpo Jigme Phunstok


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2012 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Large random shooting in Colorado
Content:
deepbluehum said:
The cause is epidemic blood lust.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I think the cause is gdon, spirit provocations.



M


Huseng said:
In your mind what is the cause of said provocations on the rise?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, many things, increased stress, pollution, non-virtuous activities, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2012 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Large random shooting in Colorado
Content:
deepbluehum said:
We need to counter this with the brightness of spirituality. Many on this forum, myself including, have a dour view of the world. I feel like this is wrong. It's time to be inspiring.

Malcolm wrote:
The greater the depth of darkness, the brighter mere sparks seem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 22nd, 2012 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Large random shooting in Colorado
Content:
deepbluehum said:
The cause is epidemic blood lust.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I think the cause is gdon, spirit provocations.



M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2012 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Radical Buddhism and the Paradox of Acceptance
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
To be fair most use consumerism, the entertainment industry, career climbing and many other pursuits to ignore how profoundly unfair and unjust the social order is.

Malcolm wrote:
Samsara is not "fair".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2012 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma
Content:
Jikan said:
I'm not sure that's a workable analogy, Malcolm.  Fascism is a political program.  Islam is a religious identity.

Malcolm wrote:
When does a religious identity cease being an ideological commitment? What makes it sacred, as opposed other ideological commitments? Certainly, Facism was upheld with religious zeal. Often religion is used for political programs, etc. Where do we want to draw the line, and how do we do so?

M

Jikan said:
I agree that ideology (defined in the sense of false consciousness) and identification are certainly problematic in either case, but I don't think both Islam and Fascism (or rather being-a-Muslim and being-a-Fascist) are reducible to ideology.  It's possible to be born Muslim, for instance, and hence to have an Islamic identity projected onto you; the current American president inherited some of this with his middle name (and hence the conviction among the wingnut-o-sphere that Barry Obama from Hawaii is clearly a Muslim and ipso-facto a "Terrist").  It's not possible to become a Fascist without having made a choice.  And unlike a traditional religious identity, which is essentially a social marker, you can choose to stop identifying as a Fascist, to stop doing or promoting Fascism, and you're done.  Try no longer being a Muslim or a Jew for that matter; it would mean a change in your life on the magnitude of joining the witness protection program (new name, new family, new hometown, all that).

That's the distinction I'm getting at.  I don't disagree with your premise that we really need to stop identifying and taking this stuff at face value as real (that's the "demystification" of ideology as false consciousness, which basically means coming to grips with your situation broadly speaking, not the make-believe world of us as good and them as bad).  I disagree there's a significant and important human difference between Islam and Fascism that needs to be recognized, or else one risks minimizing one or the other.

Islam's a religion.  Fascism is a political program.  Different functions, different conditions, different consequences, some of which may overlap.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you saying that once born a Muslim, you cannot cease being a Muslim? Are you saying one necessarily chooses to be a republican? Because I certainly know Christians who have become Buddhists, etc. I know many people who are excorciated for changing their political beliefs, and know of some who have even been killed for it.

I think it is glib to propose that political idenities cannot be projected as easily as religious ones -- communist, facist, etc.

I don't think you are making very convincing arguments for privelging religious ideologies over political ones -- they are both equally malleable and susceptible to being cuturally embedded -- for example, Socialism in Tuscany. Try being a Facist in Tuscany!

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2012 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma
Content:
Jikan said:
I'm not sure that's a workable analogy, Malcolm.  Fascism is a political program.  Islam is a religious identity.

Malcolm wrote:
When does a religious identity cease being an ideological commitment? What makes it sacred, as opposed other ideological commitments? Certainly, Facism was upheld with religious zeal. Often religion is used for political programs, etc. Where do we want to draw the line, and how do we do so?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 21st, 2012 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
It's not quite a 'serves them right!' comment yet, at least not explicitly. But it's damn close to being one.

Malcolm wrote:
People with differing ideological commitments often cannot live with each other. Facists/communists, etc.

I wonder how tobes would feel however if we replaced "facist" for "muslim"? I am not recommending intolerance towards muslims, but I am curious if tobes' "liberalism" can be extended by him/her to facists as well.

Just when do we decide that someone's ideological comittments are toxic, and then what do we do about it?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 20th, 2012 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Some more light on the issue:
http://www.zcommunications.org/democracy-and-slaughter-in-burma-gold-rush-overrides-human-rights-by-ramzy-baroud " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tobes said:
Thanks. I am still at a profound loss as to why **supposed** Buddhists on this forum have been engaged in justifying this. It really doesn't say much for contemporary Buddhism....



Malcolm wrote:
It is simply evidence that some Buddhists follow the Dharma and others do not -- nothing more, nothing less. "Buddhism" is a sectarian identity, and as such, is suscetible to the flaws of the same.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2012 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: transmissions, ngondro, samaya
Content:
pemachophel said:
Just because all ngondro contain the same elements doesn't mean that you can mix and match those elements as you choose.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not addressing a point that anyone has suggested. The OP wanted to know if they could change their ngondro practice, for example, and do a different one instead of the one they started with.

It is the opinion of some people this creates "traces" about not finishing this or that practice. It is the opinion of others that there is no fault at all. If you are interested in some other practice more than the one you are doing, then you can change. For example, if you are doing Sakya ngondro, but the decide you would rather do Longchen Nyinthig, then in my opinion, fine. If you have finished refuge/bodhicitta for example, and want to begin this new ngondro at Vajrasattva, then fine.

Refuge is Refuge. Why? Because if you are doing refuge correctly, not only do you imagine the gurus of the lineage specific that to that lineage, but you are always enjoined to understand the gurus and lineages of all teachings you have are present there as well. This is a universal instruction in every ngondro tradition. Therefore, for example if you are doing refuge in the Dudjom tersar ngondro, but have received Ngondro for something else like Sakya, Kagyu, etc., you are automatically including all those lineages. If you are doing a Nyingma ngondro, and it is dragging along, but become inspired by Karma Kagyu, and then you can approach this practice enthusiastically because you have a good connnection with that teacher, for example, then it is better for you to change your ngondro and not be stuck in conceptual limits.

If you go to a teacher, and you want mahāmudra teachings, and they decide to begin with the 18 hells (as happened to ChNN), then since you asked for their teachings, you respect that teacher and listen to their teaching, even if you know the subject perfectly. Why? Because you asked. You don't decide to reject that teacher's teachings because it is not conforming to your perfect wish.

However, if you have received teachings, respectfully, then you make sure in your own practice that you are focusing the essentials of whatever practice you have received, and you do the practice/s that are really working well for you. You should not be passive and always expect this or that lama to know what is best for you. You should take responsibility for yourself because we are not children that need to be taught step by step how to tie our shoes.

If anything, what western practitioners lack is balance -- on the one hand, some practitioners simply will not follow any guidance at all. On the other hand, some practitioners refuse to think for themselves and become completely passive. Niether of these approaches is good. Practitioners need to consult with their teachers on essential points, and also need to take responsibiliuty for their own practice and decide what is working, and what is not.

If you have the fortune of feeling that your teacher is an awakened person, like I do, then as username mentions, you should not be looking for any advice from anyone else but that person. If you do not have that feeling, then it is better not to invent it, and it is also better to take responsibility for your own practice and try to understand the essentials.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 19th, 2012 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: transmissions, ngondro, samaya
Content:
username said:
Not all ngondros are interchangeable, for example Troma Nagmo Ngondro is specific.

Malcolm wrote:
An exception which proves the rule. The Troma ngondro (which I have practiced) is, as you say, very specific and interesting. It does not contain Vajrasattva, for example (Three kāya dakini purification is used instead), though it contains the rest, and so on.

However, the vast majority of Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu Ngondros are basically the same with small variations in order, and differ only in the actual words, but do not differ at all in the essence.

And all ngondros all have exactly the same point, as you will readily agree, i.e. Guru Yoga.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 18th, 2012 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?
Content:
deepbluehum said:
I have a question about the context of moral ethics in Dzogchen. I understand in the context of Dzogchen realization one's compassion is non-directional and all-pervasive, and thus not a chosen attitude that one keeps reminding oneself about.

Malcolm wrote:
As it is said in the Nyinthig, the realization of emptiness is accompanied by the knowledge that engaging in non-virtue is pointless.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 17th, 2012 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: transmissions, ngondro, samaya
Content:
roman said:
I have been practicing a particular ngondro, but have also been given transmissions for others. I have been deeply contemplating changing my practice and have run into these questions. One, if one receives transmissions for other practices and don't do them is that breaking a samaya vow, of some sort. And, if I do change my ngondro, would that be breaking a samaya vow?


Malcolm wrote:
All preliminary practices are the same --they have refuge, bodhicitta, etc. It does not matter which one you do. You do the one you are doing, or you can do a different one everyday.

If you do one ngondro, you are doing all, so there is no break in "samaya".

If you change from one ngondro to another also no problem.

But bear in mind the real ngondro in Dzogchen is rushan and semzin, not counting.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2012 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Rushan
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
the preliminaries are not seen as per se necessary regarding the Direct Introduction (DI).


Malcolm wrote:
Rushan is an indispensible preliminary practice in Dzogchen, and no one ever said otherwise.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2012 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Bimala in the EU
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Bimala: is it available anywhere in the EU?

There's a few American sites that are willing to ship it to the Old World, but I'm a bit afraid of customs officers destroying the parcel as soon as they find out what's inside. And in Europe bimala does seem remarkably hard to find: Shang Shung Institute used to sell it, but they've apparently run out of stock - and that appears to be it, I know no other shop that has it on offer.

All your help will be greatly appreciated.


Malcolm wrote:
I have Vimala.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2012 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: FAQ: Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Content:
Jikan said:
invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words.  someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.


Dronma said:
Thank you, Jikan! 
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication). 
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct. 
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN uses the term "invocation" for two distinctly different kinds of texts i.e. smon lam i.e. aspirations (pranidhāna) and gsol 'debs  i.e. petitions (adhyeṣaṇā).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2012 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
. . . there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


dakini_boi said:
What is the reason for the order of the elemental colors in the thun system? -

space - air - water - fire - earth

Malcolm wrote:
I think this is the order it is presented in Yoga/Kriya tantra system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 13th, 2012 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: FAQ: Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Content:
Sherlock said:
Invocazione still doesn't quite mean the same thing as preghiera. On the other hand, maybe invocazione is much more commonly used in Italian than its English cognate, and ChNN chose this word with the implications behind it instead of prayer.


Malcolm wrote:
I prefer the word "supplication".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: FAQ: Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Content:
Sherlock said:
Maybe an old student of ChNN can help me answer this: Why is "invocation" used so commonly in DC translations?

Most other translations will use "prayer" or something like that for the Invocation of Samantabhadra, Marme Monlam, Seven-line Prayer/Invocation of Padmasambhava. I think invocation actually is a much better word, but I don't come across it much outside of literature about magic. Does it have something to do with Tsegyalgar originally being a Fourth-Way Community which involved other magical practices?

Thanks for the fast SoV link. That's Adriano Clemente singing I think.

Malcolm wrote:
It has to do with ChNN learning italian before english.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
Of course. But if they are not connected with already existed lineages of dzogchen - they can not refresh, can they? So it they can not refresh, what is their other purpose? As I know the terton is always "connected".


Malcolm wrote:
Termas are always connected with Kama -- for example, Shitro is connected with Guhyagarbha, but also with the mandala of peaceful and wrathful deities that are found directly in Dzogchen tantras such as the Rigpa Rangshar.

In this case, the klong gsal teachings are connected with the Nirmanakāya Dakini Gomadeva, the Sambhogakāya ḍākinī Guhyajñāna, etc. In terma there are many cycles of Guhyajñāna teachings. Guhyajñāna is the source of Simhamukha, Mamo Ekajati, etc., as well.

In general, with Gomadevi, there is nothing to refresh, it is unique. I do not know of any practice cycles previously that are connected with her. However, she however is a fully realized Dzogchen master, and you can read about her in The Great Image -- she is the ninth master in the lineage of Sems sde.

Mandarava practice on the other hand is a more recent practice of Mandarava.

Lama Khandro Thugthig has three series, outer, inner and secret. The outer practice concerns Guru Rinpoche and Jñānaḍākinī.

The klong sde cycle of klong gsal is based on the Vajra Bridge instructions of Vairocana, etc. So of course, for all of ChNN's klong gsal series there is a kama basis. If there was no Kama basis, it would not be a valid teaching.

So if someone has an open mind, and is interested, then they can learn the teachings of klong gsal and apply them. Otherwise, if you do not apply them, they are of no benefit at all.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
It does not the matter what your opinion would be
KY

Malcolm wrote:
But it matters very much what my opinion is, since you are discussing why I acted the way I did.

I know perfectly well why I closed the Bon forum, much better than you, since I was the one who decided it needed to be done.

You can either accept my testimony, or you can continue with your speculations.

M


kalden yungdrung said:
Sorry, your testimony is not acceptable for me.

So it sure matters for you only, your opinion, that is very clear but not for the other party.
So i go on with my opinion and am not convinced, when i may say so? If to be not convinced would be equal to speculations, well that is up to you.
In my opinion word games.

KY

Malcolm wrote:
So what were my motivations for closing the Bon forum again? Just so we are clear.

(And is it really necessary to rehash something that happened on E-Sangha years ago, and something which I acknowledge was wrong, regardless of my motivations?)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
As I wrote traditional terma is from a terton, the person from the time of orginal masters of Dzogchen who discovers again their techings, like for example Pema Lingpa.

Malcolm wrote:
It appears that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is not that kind of terton. He is a different kind of terton.

Mariusz said:
Can you elaborate please? What is the connetion of His pure dreams with already existed systems of Dzogchen, like Khandro and Wima Nyinthig?

Malcolm wrote:
You should ask him. In the end, all of these questions should be directed to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Could we all be wrong?

KY

Malcolm wrote:
When you speculate about my motives for closing the forum, yes you are wrong.

I am not saying that you are wrong about your experience at E-Sangha in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 8:46 PM
Title: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
It does not the matter what your opinion would be
KY

Malcolm wrote:
But it matters very much what my opinion is, since you are discussing why I acted the way I did.

I know perfectly well why I closed the Bon forum, much better than you, since I was the one who decided it needed to be done.

You can either accept my testimony, or you can continue with your speculations.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
Yes, these are the question I also have: 1) is this "new complete system" possible (for example from pure dreams of people who have never met dzogchen before)? 2)why to create "new complete system" again, as one always can ad something (a supplement) within it to instruct others? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
1) I don't think so.

2) If this question is about ChNN -- it appears that he is merely expressing his experience. If you find Longsal useful, than practice it. If not, then don't.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
As I wrote traditional terma is from a terton, the person from the time of orginal masters of Dzogchen who discovers again their techings, like for example Pema Lingpa.

Malcolm wrote:
It appears that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is not that kind of terton. He is a different kind of terton.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 10:38 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
The other links tell something about the hard wind that blew against all that was not Buddhist in the way you did wanted that. Bon did belong to that black group.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, everythying in that thread is speculative, i.e., has nothing to do with my actual motivations for closing the Bon forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.


No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.


kalden yungdrung said:
Here something to refresh your memory:

http://esanghalert.wordpress.com/category/bon-banned/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.openbuddha.com/2008/03/17/e-sangha-drama-continues/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-free.com/bon-esangha-namdrol-please-help-t217.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
The first link has nothing to do with the closing of the Bon forum. The second link just validates what I said above. The third link I cannot read because you never approved my application to read posts on your forum.

kalden yungdrung said:
It was a long time ago but your ending words regarding the closed Bon forum were that in our Kali Yuga age or time, the Buddha Shakyamuni would be anyway the source of blessings. That was that what i have in mind and nevertheless that you deny it i keep it like that.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, I was making a bit of a different point/  The reason there was Buddha's teaching in India is that there was a Buddha. Bon owes a huge debt to Buddha's teaching in terms of texts, theory, etc. But because Bonpos will not acknowledge this, at that time I closed that forum. I realize now that our decision to close the Bon forum at that time for that reason was wrong. It was wrong not because I have changed my mind about history, but because I was not paying respect to your beliefs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The klong chen 'od gsal mkha' mgro snying thig aka Longsal teachings, is a complete and independent cycle of teachings which contains various teachings on Dzogchen (sems sde, klong sde and man ngag sde), related anuyoga cycles such as Mandarava, Gomadevi and Jn̄anadakini, and various kinds of completion stage practices. They form the main core of his own practice.

They are all products of Rinpoche's dreams, and the complete details of each series of dreams as they were written down by ChNN is provided in detail in the books that accompany the root texts. Sometimes, it took several dreams over many years to produce a root text, because for whatever reason, the text was not able to be written down completely.

They are not traditional terma teachings revealed in the traditional manner i.e. he received an index, etc., and then went and took them out of the ground, etc.

My remark about new termas comes from my master, the late Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, who considered ChNN to be an incomparable master of Dzogchen (his words, not mine). KDL said that since there is no samaya breakage with new termas, they have stronger blessings. And to practice the termas of a master while he is still alive carries the greatest blessings of all.

M

rai said:
What would be the most essential practice from Rinpoche's terma cycle?

Malcolm wrote:
Guru Yoga. However, he also stated that Jñānaḍākinī was the essence of Longsal. He himself practices Mandarava everyday.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
the terma of Chanchub Dorje

Malcolm wrote:
Primarily mind termas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
If you take for example Khandro Nyinthig, it was the same complete system every time, from Pema Ledrelstal, Longchenpa, Pema Lingpa. I don't know how are the pure dreams? Perhaps they are useful for already realized master of Dzogchen only as a supplement for his complete system from the source elsewhere?

Malcolm wrote:
The klong chen 'od gsal mkha' mgro snying thig aka Longsal teachings, is a complete and independent cycle of teachings which contains various teachings on Dzogchen (sems sde, klong sde and man ngag sde), related anuyoga cycles such as Mandarava, Gomadevi and Jn̄anadakini, and various kinds of completion stage practices. They form the main core of his own practice.

They are all products of Rinpoche's dreams, and the complete details of each series of dreams as they were written down by ChNN is provided in detail in the books that accompany the root texts. Sometimes, it took several dreams over many years to produce a root text, because for whatever reason, the text was not able to be written down completely.

They are not traditional terma teachings revealed in the traditional manner i.e. he received an index, etc., and then went and took them out of the ground, etc.

My remark about new termas comes from my master, the late Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, who considered ChNN to be an incomparable master of Dzogchen (his words, not mine). KDL said that since there is no samaya breakage with new termas, they have stronger blessings. And to practice the termas of a master while he is still alive carries the greatest blessings of all.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body - Why?
Content:
Unknown said:
The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.



Malcolm wrote:
No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This thread has recently become quite silly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
. But the E-Sangha fire is again burning somewhere else.

KY

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, you are setting the fire, and epitomizing that which you disliked on E-sangha. Oh the irony.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
By the way if we get the Rainbow Body in the Bon Zhang Zhung Nyengyud, then we do belong also after that attainment to the Lineage of Taphirista.
But that i never can explain and defend at your home here and now. So where can i do that? Only at the Bon sub forum
So out of conciderations we keep it there and nowhere else.
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Taphihritsa is an important lineage master in Dzogchen Community, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 12th, 2012 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Andrew108 said:
In this forum there is so much clinging to the form and words of the teacher. This isn't Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
There is indeed much clinging to words and form. But that is not our business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2012 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Sönam said:
If you speak dzogchen, ChNN is incontrovertible!

Sönam


kalden yungdrung said:
That is sure your private opinion, no doubt about it.
It sounds like propaganda or advertisement as the best here and there.
Better to discuss general topics, which are agreed by all Dzogchen Traditions.

KY

Malcolm wrote:
This thread is DC specific, so it is better to discuss things connected with the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2012 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The main point is that we have to respect each other. That does not mean we have to agree about everything.

As far as DC topics go, we need to respect that closed webcasts are closed for a reason. People should not be having disagreements about what ChNN says in forums like this. If you have doubt, make an effort to purchase the mp3's.

People in the DC need to respect other people's POV. This does not mean that we have to agree, or admit they are right. We only need to pay attention to our own practice without attempting to condition others.

For example, many people think you need to be a Buddhist in order to be a Dzogchen practitioners. I don't agree, but I respect the opinion of those people who think so. Their approach is not wrong. But neither is mine.

ChNN is an unusual teacher. He is not presenting Dzogchen as part of the Nyingma or Bon traditions. We who are his students do not necessarily consider ourselves Nyingma or Bon. Some may, but most of us do not. This can cause some misunderstanding.

So, non-DC people need to understand that attitude of DC people is not typical of Tibetan Buddhists in other traditions, including Bon. DC people need to respect that Buddhists have a very specific POV around Dzogchen. If this is kept in mind, and we communicate with respect, then this will eliminate most problems.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2012 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
I agree with lightening the atmosphere as the last thing you want is panic, but think ChNNR, once he knew it was a fire alarm, should have immediately asked everyone to calmly leave.  I'm sure he is very familiar with these large group meetings, and already had everyone's attention.

Malcolm wrote:
While ChNN was kidding around with the audience, we had sent someone to the administration office to discover if we needed to leave the building. This the 2 minute hestitation you observed.

When it was determined we needed to leave, we left immediately, as you saw.

This building is a solid brick building, single story with almost no wood, or other flammables apart from classrooms and the auditorium, built in the late 60's. There was never any real possibility of a fire.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2012 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was the person who told the boss we had to leave during the fire alarm. But announcments are made by others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2012 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Oh, and the schedule for the current retreat that I downloaded, says that the Ganapuja is tomorrow.

But did I hear an announcement today correctly, that there will be a Ganapuja today at 2 PM EDT?

Sally Gross said:
I think you heard correctly: as I recall, Malcolm announced it immediately after the teaching session.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi,

FYI, I am not announcing anything -- that is another guy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2012 at 7:22 PM
Title: Re: How are offerings accepted?
Content:
Sherlock said:
Does the "outer" offering then have any value at all?

Malcolm wrote:
It strengthens your intention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2012 at 10:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Garuda Practice And Cancer
Content:
asunthatneversets said:
Someone also just suggested Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) which is supposedly more of an all-encompassing healing practice, would that be a better option? Or a good practice to do in addition to the garuda (as a supplement)? I know the garuda is specifically for cancer, being that cancer is generally a naga provocation. Again any information and/or suggestions are much appreciated.


Malcolm wrote:
Garuda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
That's silly.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you have a sutrayāna view of things.

Virgo said:
Malcolm these different channels have to do with different winds which relate to the different consciousnesses?

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
That's silly.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you have a sutrayāna view of things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
I have often felt intuitively that tantra's obsession with numerical correspondences was rather arbitrary.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case it is physiological.

deepbluehum said:
So the eight spokes actually correspond to the 8 consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
....

When we eat meat (or anything else) mindfully, we create a connection with all those animals through our shared rtsal energy. That gives them a connection to meet the teachings through us.

M

Inge said:
Hi
Could you explain a little about rtsal energy? What it is and how it works?

Malcolm wrote:
Rtsal is how the primordial state manifests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
I have often felt intuitively that tantra's obsession with numerical correspondences was rather arbitrary.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case it is physiological.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
This time we have new needs.

Malcolm wrote:
Makng Milanese stew however is not the solution.

deepbluehum said:
That's what happens when you take really divergent systems and try to combine them, like Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism.

What I'm making is more of a reduction.

Malcolm wrote:
It won't work. The terms of these different tenet systems are incommensurate. Of course you can have critical reevaluations of them, such as Candrakirti's revaluation of the term ālayavijñāna as "consciousness apprehending the basis i.e. emptiness, but it does not mean there is a unified field theory that ties all these tenet systems together. Realism includes all tenet systems up the the level of Madhyamaka. Even Madhyamaka subscribes to a qualified realism through its teaching of the two truths. Mahamudra does not really go beyond Madhyamaka in this respect.

The use of the eight consciousnesses in Vajrayāna systems is related to the eight channel spokes of the heart cakra, etc.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
This time we have new needs.

Malcolm wrote:
Makng Milanese stew however is not the solution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
Jnana said:
Well, I'd suggest that at some point practice becomes radically simple and these apparent discrepancies lose momentum and fall away.

deepbluehum said:
Yes. That is the practice side. I thought we were talking about the explanatory side.

Malcolm wrote:
The basic point is that different explanations were elaborated at different times, for different purposes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 4th, 2012 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Very cute and poetic. Can't do much with it. The Buddha boiled it down to 12-links.

Malcolm wrote:
The twelve links can be further reduced to three, as Nagarjuna puts it --> affliction --> action --> suffering --> affliction -->.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
The Seeker said:
Malcolm, that is a large scale operation, but there are many that are quite large that don't use manure of any type or any animal byproduct as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Animal manure = sustainable soil fertility. That can be enhanced by carcasses of various kinds propely composted, etc.

However, in this day and age of soil depletion either one uses chemicals, or one uses the results of animal husbandry, manure, etc. The latter is, in my opinion, better for the earth. Of course organic fertilizers are not restricted to feather, blood and bone meal -- but they are used extensively and you will readily agree, they are an important component of present day organic agriculture.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Where is Mount Meru?
Content:
underthetree said:
Historically, how long has Mount Kailash been regarded as Mount Meru, and in how many cultures?

Malcolm wrote:
Only by some Tibetans. Indians never thought Meru was Kailash.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Where is Mount Meru?
Content:
Huseng said:
In many Indo-European religions we find reference to a mountain being at the center of a culture's cosmological vision. For example, Olympus (Greek), Asgard (Norse), Harā Bərəzaitī (Persian) and Mount Meru (Indic).

Clearly the fact these diverse cultures share the same mythological element speaks of a common source.

So what are we to make of it? This is a controversial issue in modern times because it has been discovered that our planet is not made up of four continents with Meru at the center.

However, Mount Meru is said to be the abode of various deities up to a certain point, which would indicate it is not physical, but something beyond our ordinary physical realm.

The Vedic proponent Richard Thompson in his work Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy suggested that Mount Meru is part of a transcendental cosmological map. He demonstrated that the ancient Indians had scientific astronomical knowledge, but given the divine nature of the knowledge it extended beyond the physical realm, hence beyond what we can ordinarily perceive.

Or are we just talking about ancient cosmology that failed to pass the test of modern cosmology and hence can be set aside without further ado?

Malcolm wrote:
According to the Surya Siddhanta, Meru is the north pole.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Yangzab and Chokling tersar
Content:
roman said:
Malcolm-- would say them the Yang zab would not be complete? To me it sounds like no. Can you tell me more of the Yang zab....you have studied it under Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche, right?


Malcolm wrote:
Yangzab is 98 percent sadhanas.

It really only has one or two actual Dzogchen texts. Yangzab is an appendix to Khandro Nyinthig and is meant to be practiced in conjunction with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are totally missing the point -- organic agriculture depends on animalby products. In order to eat rice, you need slaughtered chickens.

gregkavarnos said:
Not all organic fertilisers are made from the feathers of slaughtered chickens.  There are also manure based organic fertilisers.

The Seeker said:
You two are also missing the point that in an organic set up compost of only plant matter is more effective than any animal byproduct. The animal byproduct isn't necessary in plant production.

Malcolm wrote:
In large scale operations, it is more then essential.

For example, Lundberg farms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 9:00 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are totally missing the point -- organic agriculture depends on animalby products. In order to eat rice, you need slaughtered chickens.

gregkavarnos said:
Not all organic fertilisers are made from the feathers of slaughtered chickens.  There are also manure based organic fertilisers.

Malcolm wrote:
Manure is fantastic, but it is not as nutrionally dense as feathers, bone meal or blood meal -- which is why it is used in large scale organic farming.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 8:54 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
The discrepancies between Mahayana, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Mahayana you have Yogacara and 8 consciousness. Vajrayana goes along with that somewhat but Kagyu Mahamudra makes this distinction with Alaya as pure. Then, Dzogchen says Alaya is ignorance and posits the Gzhi.

Malcolm wrote:
Different terminology elaborated at different times, for different purposes, for different reasons. There is no need to try and sew it all up in a nice neat package.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. ó 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' ó Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
--- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
Obviously. If you really are going to hold this as a view, then there is no reason even to use something like an 8 Consciousness model. The model is there to represent what happens when you don't know all consciousnesses are empty.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the model is actually there to explain, among other things, why it is that when someone experiences nirodha samapatti, their mind can resume functioning.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
But if you take the alayavijnana to be emptiness...

Malcolm wrote:
But it isn't, except in Candrakirti's scheme of things.

deepbluehum said:
So what you are saying is you don't agree with Candrakirti. You haven't shown "it isn't."

Malcolm wrote:
Candrakirti has no interest in representing the yogacara theory from the point of view of Yogacarins. He is only interested in negating it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Yangzab and Chokling tersar
Content:
roman said:
Until Chogyal Namkhai Norbu-- and his klong sde is much more detailed than the klong sde section in the sde gsum.
What about the klong sde section in the yangzab? Isn't being clear subjective, or is it that much clearer?


Malcolm wrote:
There is no sems sde or klong sde in the yang zab.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
But if you take the alayavijnana to be emptiness...

Malcolm wrote:
But it isn't, except in Candrakirti's scheme of things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2012 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Dzogchen is the 8th.

Malcolm wrote:
So you have just reduced Dzogchen to the level of mind.

deepbluehum said:
Not really. 8th is emptiness, etc.


Malcolm wrote:
All consciousnesses are empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 10:24 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:


seeker242 said:
And the amount used to grow grain to feed to cows to raise for food, is in the trillions of tons. And at the end of that, you get to dine on a dead carcase.


Malcolm wrote:
You are totally missing the point -- organic agriculture depends on animalby products. In order to eat rice, you need slaughtered chickens.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 10:05 AM
Title: Re: Yangzab and Chokling tersar
Content:
roman said:
but only Chokgyur Lingpa transmitted the Space Section.

Malcolm wrote:
Until Chogyal Namkhai Norbu-- and his klong sde is much more detailed than the klong sde section in the sde gsum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
The quote was something about students (in SOV?) looking at the sky instead of looking at him.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is right, when singing SOV it is better to gaze at the boss then over his head. I have heard him say this myself.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins
Content:


CrawfordHollow said:
Also, after one has recieved transmission from ChNN...does that give one permission to start the rushen practice,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Jacob said:
If I had once DC membership but I didn't buy it this year, can I still use my login and password and listen to restricted webcast?


Malcolm wrote:
You ought to just pay your membership.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This webcast contained formal sems khrid/rig pa'i ngo sprod yesterday morning.

Greg said:
Thanks - it seems to have  . . .not registered, or something. When was that, exactly? Understandable if you don't want to elaborate on public forum.


Malcolm wrote:
When he gave transmission in the last 45 minutes of the session.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Content:


heart said:
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yidam is a symbol of natural state.

In general, however this language belongs to the vehicles of cause and result.There are specific passages in Dzogchen tantras which reject this language.

Taking the three kāyas into the path is different than taking the result as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Greg said:
Point of clarification requested. I've read:

alpha said:
But does RInpoche ever give pointing out instructions or direct introductions to rigpa as part of a webcast?

Malcolm wrote:
Always.

Greg said:
and


alpha said:
Would it be accurate to say that WHATEVER he says is actually pointing out?

Malcolm wrote:
Whenever Rinpoche is talking about Dzogchen, he is giving direct introduction.

N


Greg said:
But for webcasts such as this one that didn't include a more formal sems khrid/rig pa'i ngo sprod, is it considered a direct introduction/ww transmission for the purposes of permission to purchase and study books and so forth?

Malcolm wrote:
This webcast contained formal sems khrid/rig pa'i ngo sprod yesterday morning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.

gregkavarnos said:
Animal by-products not animal products.

Malcolm wrote:
Blood, bones and feathers are not animal products?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dronma said:
Today ChNN Rinpoche clarified for one more time with the following words exactly that: 
"Zen is Sutra teaching. 
Dzogchen is part of Vajrayana". 

Cheers!


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 2nd, 2012 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Content:
CapNCrunch said:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path
I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen.  Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.


Malcolm wrote:
No, to take the result as the path means, for example, to meditate on oneself as a buddha, for example, Guru Dragphur, which is the method of Upa, Yoga, Mahayoga and Anuyoga.

One is not a buddha, but one takes the result as one's path.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Content:
heart said:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path.

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.

heart said:
It is called Vajrayana. "Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayana" ChNNR

Edit: I understand that this is a also a name for the Lamdre teachings (after some google) I of course don't mean that Dzogchen is a part of Lamdre.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
One does not take the path as the result in Dzogchen. For example, Vajrayāna is nominally part of Mahāyāna, nevertheless, Vajrayāna is not a causal vehicle. Vajrayāna in general is the result vehicle. Likewise, Dzogchen is nominally part of the both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna but it is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Hence my negation of your statement.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:


Huseng said:
If you're vegetarian or vegan avoiding animal biproducts is almost impossible given than many ingredients in processed foods are derived from dead livestock in some form or another.

Malcolm wrote:
No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Content:
heart said:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path.

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: Great Depression History and its shadow
Content:
kirtu said:
Of course since 2007 US household wealth has once again dropped 40% - not the same as income but I personally know people whose personal income has dropped 90%.  These pages also raise an issue of people starving to death in the US during the Great Depression although that was in effect covered up.

Kirt

Huseng said:
Does everyone there have access to food stamps?

kirtu said:
I don't know as I don't know as I know almost nothing about food stamps even though I should have applied for food stamps three years ago.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Getting food stamps is a huge pain. They really ride your ass with paperwork, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Dzogchen is the 8th.

Malcolm wrote:
So you have just reduced Dzogchen to the level of mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
It is this erroneous thinking that has created so much confusion over the centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a simple definition found in various sutras.

deepbluehum said:
I question their validity.


Malcolm wrote:
Since the whole concept of the ālaya-vijñāna comes from sutra, it is a little strange to contest the definitions set out by the defining literature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:


deepbluehum said:
See I don't agree with you here. I think everything needs to be reconciled.

Malcolm wrote:
Have at it then -- but AFAIC, it is a colossal waste of time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
In Mahāmudra and Lamdre, ālaya refers to the nature of the mind i.e. inseperable clarity and emptiness. In Dzogchen ālaya refers to ignorance. It is very simple. Not even worth a discussion, really.
It's only polemics and one-upsmanship.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is just a different system with a different terminology.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is afflicted since it stores the bijas of affliction.

deepbluehum said:
It is this erroneous thinking that has created so much confusion over the centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a simple definition found in various sutras.




deepbluehum said:
Once all the traces have been eradicated, the ālayavijñāna disappears.
Emptiness can never disappear. The Alaya-vijnana is emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to the definition of Candrakirit given in the Madhyamaka-avatarabhasyaṃ but not according to the definition of the cittamatra school. So you have to be clear whose definition you are speaking from. Incidentally, in the tantras, they use the definition of the cittamatra school since ālayavijñāna is relative consciounsess that is a function of the body.


deepbluehum said:
There is a difference between the ālaya discussed in Mahāmudra teachings and the ālayavijñāna. However in Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya is also considered afflicted. In Dzogchen ālaya = avidyā.
I resolved these discrepancies. Take another look at my analysis. What you said might be the formulaic subscriptions given by certain teachers from certain lineages at certain times, but there is no reason to think these should remain so fixed.

Malcolm wrote:
I go by the definitions provided in the man ngag sde tantras where the definition of the ālaya is well defined. It is of little use to reconcile different terminologies apart from noting that they refer to different things.

In Mahāmudra and Lamdre, ālaya refers to the nature of the mind i.e. inseperable clarity and emptiness. In Dzogchen ālaya refers to ignorance. It is very simple. Not even worth a discussion, really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Content:
deepbluehum said:
I tend to differ with Jnana's quoted material for the following reasons. The source is myself and my experience with oral transmission in the Vajrayana lineages.

The first Five Consciousnesses (Vijnana) correspond to each of the Five Sense Media (eye, nose, ear, tongue and body). The Sixth Consciousness (Manovijnana), postulating external “objects”, corresponds to the Five Sense Bases or “sense objects.” The Seventh Consciousness (Manas) is the afflicted consciousness that postulates a truly existent subject or “I.” Alayavijnana is the eighth of the Eight Consciousnesses which is the nature of mind, Emptiness, Prajnaparamita, Mahamudra, etc. The sense-Vijnanas, the Manovijnana and the Manas are mutually conditioned by the Three Poisons (ignorances, attachment and aversion), and, together, these constitute the basis (alaya with a little “a”) for samsara. The prime mover is the Manovijnana-Manas dynamic. Thus, the Alaya is not afflicted.

Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is afflicted since it stores the bijas of affliction.


deepbluehum said:
Thus, the Alaya is neither perceived by the ignorant, apprehended, nor obscured. All the apprehension and obscuration is occurring from the seventh consciousness and below.

Malcolm wrote:
Once all the traces have been eradicated, the ālayavijñāna disappears.

There is a difference between the ālaya discussed in Mahāmudra teachings and the ālayavijñāna. However in Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya is also considered afflicted. In Dzogchen ālaya = avidyā.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2012 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
seeker242 said:
There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the very definition of animal cruelty -- like feeding corn to cows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
Does it apply to all practitioners that they benefit the animal by eating it, or only those who are able to do so when in the natural state, as I am unsure how many DC members are at that level where it would be much help?

Malcolm wrote:
You can use a mantra as a support for blessing, such as om ah hum, or འ་ཧ་ཤ་ས་མ, or if you have the confidence of instant presence, that is sufficient. In any case, the main point is not to remain passive -- this is the fault of Mahāyāna style vegetarianism.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Blue Garuda said:
How about those who will not eat meat unless the animal died naturally or in an accident?

Malcolm wrote:
All death is natural and is a result of karma, including being butchered in an abbatoir.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Blue Garuda said:
The original premise is that it is 'given' that killing animals can't be stopped.

Malcolm wrote:
It cannot be stoppped. Without animals, agriculture is not possible. For example, all commercial organic agiculture uses millons of ton of feather meal, bone meal and blood meal.

All farming results in millions of rodent, bird, and insect deaths.

So even when you eat your rice cake, you still have to do so with mindfulness of all the animals that died to bring that good to your table. So when you understand things in this way, then you understand that the arguments against eating meat are essentially silly and vain.

The only positive argument against eating meat is health. The way we consume meat in Western Industrial Soceiety is not healthy. But the idea that eschewing meat stops the process of death is deluded.

When we eat meat (or anything else) mindfully, we create a connection with all those animals through our shared rtsal energy. That gives them a connection to meet the teachings through us.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
have I misunderstood ChNNR when he advised people to buy supermarket meat?

Malcolm wrote:
Completely. He is saying that the animal is already dead and refusing to purchase meat based on some fantasy that this will prevent the future slaughter of animals is therefore a fantasy-based decision. Worse, it means that from a Dzogchen POV, you are abandoning animals to limitless suffering. He says, and said last night that buying meats like sausage is even better since it is made from many animals and not just one. When you use this meat in a ganapuja, you create possibilities for that animal to be reborn as your student, etc.

Listen to his webcast from last night where he clearly addressed all of this, including criticisms directed at Dzogchen pracitioners who advocate meat-eating as a compassionate thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan translation challenge
Content:
conebeckham said:
Barnang= inner blazing?


Malcolm wrote:
བར་སྣང i.e. the sky. Means the space in front of one, the "middle appearance".

ས་i.e.earth, hence sky and earth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2012 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Pero said:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Phowa is not a specfically Dzogchen teaching.

The four or six bardo scheme is specifically Dzogchen and is not found in the gsar ma tantras, the main source for the teaching on bardos is nyi zla kha sbyor rgyud.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2012 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Jacob said:
Hm, could anyone explain me what's the function of serkyem practice?


Malcolm wrote:
Offering a drink to the four guests, focusing on the eight classes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
ChNN's guru yoga transmission is extraordinary form of guru yoga. ChNN is an extraordinary teacher. This is a very unique opportunity.

Malcolm wrote:
Preaching to the choir -- ChNN has been my root Guru since 1992.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever you like to believe.

I am not going to discuss this further on an open forum.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


Mariusz said:
Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.

Malcolm wrote:
?[/quote]

Marigpa is "subject-side", visions are "object side". When the display of the basis is recognized as one's own state, no more dualism, no more ignorance.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
The visions are not Sambhogakaya IIRC.

Malcolm wrote:
The visions are completley pure, meaning they are not fabricated by the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 8:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
deepbluehum said:
The specific wangs for specific practices are required...

Malcolm wrote:
No, this not correct.

If you have DI, then all you need is lung for mantra and brief explanation of practice, in general.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:


BuddhaSoup said:
Now if only someone could tell me that, with no-self/anatta/anatman in mind, what survives death to occasion rebirth?  A consciousness? A cosmic bit of dust? A semi-soul?  A wisp of smoke that follows an extinguished candle?

Malcolm wrote:
Affliction and action.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 7:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Mariusz said:
What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read  Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.

deepbluehum said:
I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.

Malcolm wrote:
Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 7:35 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure...

Malcolm wrote:
They are completely pure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: Not Accepting, Not Rejecting
Content:
MalaBeads said:
It is easier for me to understanding the instruction "not rejecting". It is more difficult for me to see what is meant by "not accepting".

My own lifelong habit has been more to simply accept whatever was happening in my life and work with it. And then whenever I would reject something, someone, it would be with a vengeance.

So what do there's understand by this instruction "not accepting"?

Any and all help is gratefully accepted.


Malcolm wrote:
The term is more like "not rejecting, not adopting".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
All the manifesting is marigpa. Once you finally resolve the view, there is exhaustion of phenomena.

Mariusz said:
Even the visions of thogal? You know the exhaustion is the forth vision only.


Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all.

Thogal visions are wisdom appearances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2012 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Mariusz said:
For example visions of thogal have nothing to do with the Mind, but it is possible to have breaks for ordinary life activity.

Malcolm wrote:
"Samantabhadra" is a state of total integration where it is impossble to return to the state of being an ordinary person.

Below this level, we have alternating experiences of rigpa and marigpa.

This does not mean we need to do anything to acheive awakening. We merely need to extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7.

Samantabhadra has five definitions, one of those is "the basis Samantbhadra".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Mariusz said:
]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html. More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice

heart said:
Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Pero said:
What is the tibetan for "reenlightenment"? I don't believe this term actually exists.

Mariusz said:
I will look at book "the practice of dzogchen for it. Perhaps I heard it also from some Rinpoche, so I will check my notes. However the theory of dzogchen is not so linear as mahayana, especially in Nyinthig, and you can suprise yourselves


Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra both possessed igorance (innate ignorance and ignorance that resembles the cause) and once he recognized his own state, he never returned to a state of ignorance.



M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Jnana said:
You still fail to understand or acknowledge the point: There are people who are not receptive to dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, as the Dzogchen tantras openly acknowledge.

The job of the teacher is identify such persons and steer them to the appropriate spritual solution.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
I feel like I shouldn't leave this hanging. I'll try to be reserved. For example, tanha doesn't mean desire. It means urge. Avijja doesn't mean ignorance. It means unawares.

Malcolm wrote:
Tanha [tṛṣna] means thirst. Avijja [avidyā] means not knowing [i.e.ignorance].

deepbluehum said:
I don't expect to convince you of something. I don't agree Buddha was saying thirst. He was talking about something deeper.

[/quote[]

Yes, he meant thirst, and yes, he was using the term to point to something deeper, the salt water of desire, etc.
He didn't mean to say knowing some information was overcoming avijja. He was talking about becoming aware of what's happening.

Malcolm wrote:
He was using it in both senses, knowledge that overcomes ignorance, knowing what is happening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
I feel like I shouldn't leave this hanging. I'll try to be reserved. For example, tanha doesn't mean desire. It means urge. Avijja doesn't mean ignorance. It means unawares.

Malcolm wrote:
Tanha [tṛṣna] means thirst. Avijja [avidyā] means not knowing [i.e.ignorance].


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:
BuddhaSoup said:
...the original teachings.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing.

BuddhaSoup said:
There does seem to be a consensus view that the original teachings of Gautama were kept within the oral tradition of his monks, who met after his death to organize the teachings. Over time, these teachings were written down; how accurately in anyone's best estimate, but the scholarship suggests that there is a uniform agreement that the Buddha's teachings on Four Noble Truths, Dependent Origination, among others, survived fairly intact.

Malcolm wrote:
Even the Buddha acknowledges that he is not the first Buddha, hence his teachings are not "the original".

This notion that Gotama Buddha's teachings in the Nikayas/Agamasare the "originals" is purely a scholastic aritifice and should not be believed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
pemachophel said:
It would also be interesting to hear from some Tibetan Lamas why they don't speak out in public on such issues.

Malcolm wrote:
Because they all have dirt on each other, or members of each other's lineages. If accusations start flying, it will never end.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
I see. Is there a particular method for introduction by touch or are we assuming like some quick shock from a sharp touch for example?


Malcolm wrote:
Introduction need not necessarily be via a Hadawa. Could be something smooth, then something rough, etc. Anyway, while in principle we can consider that as long as a human being has some sensory capacity, they can receive introduction, practically speaking it is a little difficult if they are too sensorily deprived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
If someone's deaf and blind, then what are they supposed to do? The master has to communicate somehow. A smile is a far cry from the Direct Introduction of Six A. There are those limitations that someone cannot overcome so it's next life for them.

Malcolm wrote:
Braile and touch.

deepbluehum said:
That's transmission by reading, which I thought was no no.

Malcolm wrote:
braile to communicate concepts, touch for introduction...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
If someone's deaf and blind, then what are they supposed to do? The master has to communicate somehow. A smile is a far cry from the Direct Introduction of Six A. There are those limitations that someone cannot overcome so it's next life for them.

Malcolm wrote:
Braile and touch.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2012 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


deepbluehum said:
...Westerers need Asian culture along with Dharma instructions. Screw that.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hi B:

You should not expect much at a short retreat. However, if you can, find Joe Evans.

He is here on Dwheel. He is there in Pasadena.

M


bjf77 said:
With all that I said before, in my previous post....I have a sort of bone to pick.
Before I say anything though let me preface it with this:
ChNN is amazing!!  His teaching is amazing (method and introduction).

The community though, in my very weak and humble opinion, could use some work.  I came out here to Pasadena, CA, from SLC, UT (there are NO other D.C. members in SLC that I know of), alone for this retreat...and I guess I shouldn't complain, because I did come out to meet ChNN and receive teachings in person.  However, the community has been quite oddly 'distant' overall.  People have been kind, polite, and genuinely 'nice', but have remained at a distance from me (and I assume from other loners at this event).  I have remained a loner the entire time at this retreat.  I have attempted several times to try to start conversations to get to know people and start to 'experience' the Dzogchen Community.  I have been a member since 2008 and this is the first time I have had the chance to interact and relate with other members of the community in person.  I don't feel like I am socially inadequate or awkward.  Maybe a bit shy at times, but I tend to be able to make 'friends' fairly easily and am able to carry a conversation.  I feel like I somehow, somewhere, missed some 'boat' though.  The longest conversation I had was about 2 minutes and everybody seemed interested in ending our little chat as quickly as possible.  It just struck me as odd.

Perhaps, the issue is one of expectation that should be dropped....A close friend of mine, I talked to via the internet tonight about this topic told me, "it's a great time to experience working with your own condition"...TRUE!  But I can't help but feeling a bit disappointed.  This is suppose to be a community, it's very name is such, the Dzogchen Community.  In my opinion, it doesn't feel much like a community, but more of a 'fend for yourself' 'feel/mentality'.  Perhaps it's just the mixture of people at this particular area/retreat?  I don't want this post to come across as harsh....I love ChNN, the teaching, and the Community (at least with my limited digital contact) and was hoping that the experience would be reciprocal from the community.  Apparently, this is an issue that exists in my mind as it is a judgement, a part of dualistic vision, and should be dropped.

So, what am I going to do, besides be aware of the judgement, emotion etc... and let it self liberate?  Well, if I am ever fortunate enough to be at a D.C. event again, retreat, teachings, practice, etc.... I will make it a point to find that loner or 'newb' and welcome him/her and try to help them get their bearings, answer questions, get to know them, even invite them out for a lunch or dinner (if appropriate for the situation) and be as much like a 'community' member as possible, because I don't want another to have the experience that I have had with something that is so dear to me.  I would challenge all D.C. members to do the same.

Much Love, Light, and Bows....
B


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:


deepbluehum said:
How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?

Malcolm wrote:
Transmission is not only by sound, but can be communicated through any of the five senses. The main point is that they understand.

And then there is sign language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.

deepbluehum said:
Well that's encouraging. Dzogchen doesn't seem to leave any stones unturned. Is there anything to be done for deaf people who cannot hear transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
They have eyes, so yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:
BuddhaSoup said:
...the original teachings.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
deepbluehum said:
Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
So Dzogchen would be not limited but a Dzogchenpa does to a certain degree. Karma is somehow still counting......

Malcolm wrote:
"When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us."
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 193-195). Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 24th, 2012 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Ogyen said:
Attended my first ChNNR webcast for the Los Angeles Retreat- "Kunzang Monlam" Introduction to Ati Guru Yoga and tridlung of Short Thun.

Wow.  Just wow.  Like. Wow.


deepbluehum said:
It's hard to follow another teacher after hearing him.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 21st, 2012 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Balancing the Three Humors
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You have an imbalance of bad kan, phlegm. More exercise, lighter diet, etc. Go to an ayruveda practitioner for a kapha balancing diet or consult an ayurvedic cooking manual for the same.

Do yantra, a lot.

Sherlock said:
Is an imbalance of phlegm also expressed through physical phlegm i.e. mucus from the nose and phlegm in the mouth?

Malcolm wrote:
Can be


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 20th, 2012 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Unknown said:
News flash, if you follow the classic approach, you're expected to actually practice Dzogchen after perfecting kyerim, something most of you will never get to do. The defilements are considered so powerful these days, that some lamas will require not 100.000 of each accumulation, but 400.000.

Malcolm wrote:
This based on the idea that 100,000 is the Treta yoga amount, but since we are in Kali yuga, it is multiplied by four.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 20th, 2012 at 7:59 PM
Title: Re: Dzochenpa Census
Content:




Clarence said:
Andrew, meet Geoff. Our resident genius hermit (I am being serious). He can read Pali, Sankrit and Tibetan and lives like a hermit. He is also a nice fellow from what I can gather of reading his posts for many many years. So, sometimes it is good to listen to what he has to say.

Sönam said:
Thank you ... my hears are whistling since a couple of days, since Malcom stopped answering there is a rush of arrogant and caustic statements.

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Partly it is because I am on the road.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 19th, 2012 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen
Content:
JKhedrup said:
I am a bit shocked but I guess I have not been following your postings of closely enough of late.
So in fact you see all those many years of learning Tibetan, studying the Sakya systems, translating those texts
and investigating the abhidharmakosha etc. as a waste of time. You think you would have been better off
just resting in your natural state.
OR Did it take that much to get to this point?

It is a bit discouraging to hear, somehow. For me personally, I couldn't imagine jumping into these formless
meditations without a sort of gradual progression. I guess according to the Dzogchen presentation I am a
dull faculty disciple. If I did think all the rest was unncessary, I wouldn't have busted
my butt these last few years learning Tibetan and translation. I really feel what Geshe la teaches me now
is what will allow these formless things to make sense in the future.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy reading texts like the Kosha and so on, but I am not longer under the il/delusion that liberation lies in that direction. Studying medieval philsophy, while entertaining, is a hobby.

As I said elsewhere, for Dzogchen all you really need to understand is the five poisons, the five elements, body, voice and mind, as well as the eight examples of illusion. That is about the extent of "abidharma" and madhyamaka you need to understand. You do not even need to understand the five aggregates, etc.

This dawned on me in April when I was teaching a course on Tibetan Medicine (which is all about the five elements and how they create, maintain and destroy the body) and realized that in all the thousands of pages of Tibetan texts I have translated and read of original Dzogchen material, apart from the five poisons, the vast portion of other topics in Abhidharma, the complex pirouettes of Abhisamaya, the scheme of the two truths and so on, is more or less completely absent in Dzogchen tantras apart from when they are criticizing these schemes or presenting the views of the different yānas.

Of course the Dzogchen tantras themselves deal with the doctrines of other yānas, mostly critically. And of course to be a translator of Dzogchen texts etc., yes, you need to study everything from the three vows all the way up the ladder -- especially if you want to become enmeshed in the texts of Longchenpa. So in answer to your other question, I am not sorry for having studied anything. All study can be taken with you into your next life. I am a "knowledge friendly anti-intellectual" these days.

To practice Dzogchen, you need to study very little. You just need to receive transmission from a qualified master (cannot underestimate the importance of that) and then go practice. If you think you need to study many things to understand Dzogchen then you are wasting your time. Why can I say this? Because many simple, uneducated people have acheived total liberation through Dzogchen teachings. Butchers, hunters, farmers, stone carvers, laborers of all kinds, people who did not spend years in retreat learning complicated practices and doctrines.

Dzogchen boils down to rigpa and marigpa i.e. knowledge or ignorance of the real condition of your body speech and mind which is created out of the five elements [yes mind too is a created out of the five elements].


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen
Content:


rai said:
it is great but it would be interesting to know how many is getting it.


Malcolm wrote:
As long as you are not passive and apply yourself, all will "get it".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
xylem said:
"will the true dzogchen please stand up" debate on DW.

-xy


Malcolm wrote:
It's been going on since E-Sangha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Yudron said:
Malcolm this actually brings up an interesting point.  I tried looking at some dzogchen tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum, and they were handwritten -- difficult to read and containing a lot of scribal mistakes.  Many criticize the bible for being so rife with scribal errors compounded one upon the other that it could hardly reflect the early documents it purports to represent... and perhaps intentionally distorted in places.

Malcolm wrote:
The Adzom Chogar edition of the seveteen tantras is the best; it is based on the Derge edition and provides all the alternate readings. For example, there were at least three manuscript traditions of the Rangshar -- the one in the Tingskye/Tsham brag edition is has differences in certain respects from the Adzom Chogar and is based on only one manuscript tradition.

Yudron said:
Now, I don't know why you look at the Dzogchen tantras from a religious view when you are eschewing religion

Malcolm wrote:
I don't "beleive" in the Dzogchen tantras, I have personal experience of what they are discussing (no this does not mean I am a realized person). So I don't look at them from a religious point of view -- they are experiential manuals.

Yudron said:
but clearly you believe, as I do, that they are not Tibetan inventions.

Malcolm wrote:
There are features of the Man ngag sde tantras that can only exist in native Tibetan compositions.

My view of the Dzogchen tantras is that they are human compositions, relative, and so confined in space and time to this epoch. For example, the Rangshar  was taught by the primordial master Zhonnu Pawo Tobdan. But it also mentions Shankaracaraya and Kumarila who are both from the 7th-8th century. So when it was set down or recounted, in the enumeration of views, Vimalamitra or someone else, if it is really a translation, mentioned these Hindu masters who were of recent fame. So I think that the Dzogchen tantras have multiple layers and multiple authors. And this also does not mean that they do not have an oral origin in a guy named  Garab Dorje -- we simply do not know.

But faith in the historicity of Garab Dorje, or the veracity of the traditional lineage account is unecessary for the pratice Dzogchen. Even if Dzogchen were invented yesterday by Eckhart Tolle, it would still be a verifiable personal experience one can have.

For example, the Rangshar's colophon holds that Vimalamitra translated the text using copies in three languages, that of Sanskrit, Oḍḍiyānese, and rgya nag, which at the time, probably meant Central Asia(according to Hansen-Barber), but usually is understood as China by modern Tibetans. This is strange and interesting.

Yudron said:
So, we believe...they are not just 1,000 years old, but 2,000 or more years old.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not sure of that. All we know for sure is that around this literature emerged in the tenth century. We have no text datable prior to the tenth century apart from the Guhyagarbha tantra -- this is because Samyas burned down. Even so, the 17 tantras were supposedly confined to a single edition discovered by Dangma Lhungyal and given to Chetsun. Chetsun gave them to Zhangton in 1128 along with the Vima Nyinthig. He also gave them to Chegom who revealed some other interesting tantras (which are in NGB) that show up in slightly different recensions Gongpa Zangthal. At that time, Terma revelations were not so codified the way they are now. The colophons of the texts in the zangs yig can for example recommend that the pratitioner himself conceal the texts for later times if he cannot find a suitable disciple.

Yudron said:
With each edition there have been scribal errors and edits by well-intentioned lamas trying to figure out what needs correcting--probably dozens of editions.  Whomever Garab Dorje was, living in whatever era he did, what we have now as Dzogchen tantras clearly are not what he received from Vajrasattva.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, these texts have been subject to emendation and addition. One thing, Garab Dorje was a nirmanakāya -- his speech is Vajrasattva and his mind is Samanabhadra. The three kāyas are inseperable -- so the Samantabhadra --> Vajrasattva --> Garab Dorje lineage thing is just a literary device, and not meant to be taken literally, IMO.

Yudron said:
Did I read somewhere that Jim Valby inputted a critical edition of the main 17 tantras?

In any event, while very interested in the current redaction of these ancient documents, I place my faith in the personal menngak from current Buddhas who have accomplished the path in the present.

Malcolm wrote:
All the 17 tantras have been put on line in wylie, Valby's edition. They are a not a critical edition. For some tantras, he input parallel copies, which is better than "critical editions".

My present understanding of Dzogchen is entirely due primarily to the kindness of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, which is not to discount the kindness of othe teachers.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: What is Yeshe?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If one knows [shes] the buddhahood that has always been [ye] naturally formed by nature, 
there will be buddhahood of clear realization. 
That is the definition of wisdom [ye shes].

Rigpa Rangshar tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Balancing the Three Humors
Content:
Clarence said:
So, after yesterday's talk about the practice of the night and balancing the three humors, I have some questions I hope you can answer.

Personally, I have a hard time remembering my dreams. It seems I sleep pretty deeply and, like Rinpoche said, don't feel like doing a lot of physical stuff during the day. All symptoms of heavy ....... I couldn't make out what he said. Thing is, I don't sleep during the day nor do I fall asleep during meditation.
So, what could I do to lower the level of ....... which makes for the heavy sleep?  What diet is best? I am a vegetarian and would prefer to stay one.

Many thanks, Clarence


Malcolm wrote:
You have an imbalance of bad kan, phlegm. More exercise, lighter diet, etc. Go to an ayruveda practitioner for a kapha balancing diet or consult an ayurvedic cooking manual for the same.

Do yantra, a lot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Dependent Origination and Lhundrup
Content:
Sherab said:
Horizontal aspect of DO manifests as causal chain and when examine, points to impermanence of all phenomena.
Vertical aspect of DO when examine, points to sunyata.

In Dzogpa Chenpo, lhundrup is more fundamental than DO.  Because of lhundrup, there is DO.

What do you think?


Malcolm wrote:
I think that not recognizing lhun grub results in dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Yudron said:
Is Nubchen now the great oppressor?

Malcolm wrote:
My remark concerned Dalton, not Nubchen.

Anyway, the nine yānas are not a problem, since they include the tirthika vehicles as well, following the scheme laid out in the sgra thal gyur (first yāna, yāna of gods and humans).

The nine yānas are not reflective of the hostility Dzogchen recevied in Tibet, nor the continuing hostility Dzogchen has been subjected to in various Buddhist quarters, Sakya, Kagyu as well as Kadampa/Gelug.

The Bonpos, contrary to the post 10th century mythology of the imperial period, were never hostile to Dzogchen despite the fact that they definitely pushed back against in the three way political contest between Chinese influence, Indian influence, and native traditions.

It is funny you know: in the colophon of the Rigpa Rangshar tantra, when Trisrong Detsen is presenting the Rigpa Rangshar to Nyanbang he says “This [tantra] is evil mantra (ngan sngags) that will ruin Tibet. If Tibet comes to ruin, you should move this outside of it.”

What is hilarious about this of course is that the Rigpa Rangshar barely contains any mantras, has no methods of liberation or union, etc., and discusses the four empowerments of man ngag sde in only the barest of terms. But the message is Dzogchen is that anyone can understand it and practice it (providing they have transmission of course). This is threatening to Indian/Kadampa style gradualism that has come to dominate all schools of Tibetan Buddhism including modern Nyingma and Bon.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen
Content:
Adamantine said:
This is precisely the kind of snarky and cynical overgeneralization that reduces your credibility considerably.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not terribly worried about my credibility. That is other people's problem, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:33 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Bhusuku said:
From the little I know of Bön scriptures, it really seems to me that most of them are interspersed with Dzogchen teachings...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the commentary on the Bon "abhidharma" attributed to Drenpa Namkhai mentions tregchö, for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:31 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Bhusuku said:
It would be really interesting to know if they do Ngöndro the way Tibetans do. Unfortunately, I didn't come acorss any information about that yet.


Malcolm wrote:
They don't.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen
Content:
Yudron said:
This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public.  This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.

M

Yudron said:
I'm not a cynical as you, Malcolm.  Our current Dudjom lineage holders--such as Khyentse Rinpoche--for example, are not trying to defend their power base, quite the contrary.  Each of them cares only about how blossom enlightenment in us as quickly as possible.  An this involves being very meticulous and careful, as Longchenpa recommended... carefully working with each student in an individualized manner and protecting them from derailment.  They put all their heart into carefully guiding serious practitioners, and don't give a **** what one's nationality or pedigree is.

Malcolm wrote:
No disrespect, it's a nice sales pitch, but I am not buying it. No interested in religion anymore,Buddhist or otherwise, even packaged as "enlightenment" whatever that is.

But, different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Adamantine said:
These are just theories, and not corresponding to the way the Nyingmapas tell their own history.

Bhusuku said:
Well, if you read about tibetan history and not only about the "way the Nyingmapas tell their own history" you'll get another picture... Yudron suggested Dalton's "Uses of the Dgong Pa ‘Dus Pa’i Mdo in the Development of the Rnying-Ma School of Tibetan Buddhism" earlier in this thread, and if I remember correctly, that text is a good start in this regard.


Malcolm wrote:
It's kind of funny to cite Dalton in defense of Nyingma orthopraxy since the conclusion of his PhD thesis is that Nubchen basically composed the anuyoga tantras with Chetsun Kye's help.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:05 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen
Content:
Yudron said:
This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public.  This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 11:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
He never stayed in Bristol, but he stayed in Lincoln at Osa's house (mostly) and also David Arndt's house.

Adamantine said:
Malcolm, were you by chance at an elaborate Drollo wang he gave in Lincoln, that John Petit translated? If so, would you have been wearing a striped zen? I have a vague memory, wondering if that was you. . .

BTW, I got a copy of a translation you did for the short practice of his Drollo terma from Khenpo Sonam in LA, and the lung from his son Rigdzen Dorje Rinpoche. Thank you for your work on that.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Adamantine:

I was there. I don't think I brought a Zen to that wang. But it is a fact that I am the only western person who received the skra dbang (hair empowerment) from KDL who kept it (I was the one who requested for it, so it would have been gauche for me not to be keep it). Everyone else, for whatever reason, has cut there hair one time or another.

You are welcome. BTW. The "short" practice is actually the practice. There is another Drollo cycle in his gter kha, but it is elaborate, and is mainly used fo drubchens.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
I don't find strange at all that during some periods of Tibetan history Dzogchen had to go "underground", being cloaked in Tantric robes.
There were some factions inside the schools of the new translation very hostile to Dzogchen teachings, as you know.

Adamantine said:
These are just theories, and not corresponding to the way the Nyingmapas tell their own history. I think it is just a tad disrespectful to imply that they were so influenced by sectarian anxieties that they forgot their own history and their reasons for making important decisions.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Dechen is merely repeating what ChNN has said many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as one of his heart sons, I can say this is absolutely true.

Virgo said:
I wasn't fortunate enough to be his student, but I did stay at a house in Bristol where apparently he stayed many times when he visited Vermont.

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
He never stayed in Bristol, but he stayed in Lincoln at Osa's house (mostly) and also David Arndt's house.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
Title: Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.
Content:
oldbob said:
That said, I have never, in the 32 years that I have been with ChNNR, have heard him say that anyone should not study with other Teachers, or limit themselves in any way

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Transmission itself is the only blessing you need.

Kunga Lhadzom said:
Is reading The Precious Treasury... By Longchenpa a transmission ?    Or only When you listen to ChNN via Webcast/or live ?


Malcolm wrote:
Reading a book is not transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
- Is ChNN then the only exception who is convinced about the non necessity of the preliminaries within Dzogchen?
- Are there then maybe more Dzogchen Masters (anno 2012), who share ChNN's point of view?


Mutsog Marro
KY

Virgo said:
The great Kunzang Dechen Lingpa did.

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as one of his heart sons, I can say this is absolutely true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Adamantine said:
Well, this goes back to another thing we used to hash out on Esangha. Malcolm and others may say these Nyingma terma revelations are all just creative writings of the tertons.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said they were mere creative writings. This would mean they were products of conceptual mind.

I don't think that.

But I don't think that termas are necessarily reflective of some conventional historical factual event.

Of course the evolutuon of the terma tradition is poorly understood, even by Tibetans. However, if we look at the first account of the terma tradition, i.e. the one written by Guru Chowang, this can give us some clarity. Also looking at the colophons of the Vima Nyinthig and the 17 tantras, etc, will bring clarity, as well as looking at the Bonpo termas tradition which is arguably earlier than the Buddhist one.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 8:12 AM
Title: Re: What is Yeshe?
Content:
Sherab said:
If by Wisdom, you refer to the knowledge of the actual condition, then you are saying that light can be obscured by darkness or enlightened knowledge can be obscured by misknowledge.  If your Wisdom refers to something else, then it is merely mundane wisdom and is of no consequence.  Calling that Wisdom becomes an obfuscation.

Malcolm wrote:
Wisdom (jñāna, yeshe) is the basis.

Rigpa/sherab is knowledge of one's actual condition i.e. the basis.

Anyway, you can use whatever word you want for ye shes, timeless awakening, pristine cognition blah blah blah.

These are all just signifiers anyway and of no real consequence.

Wisdom (insert favorite jargon here i.e. Jñāna, God, Brahmin, Yeshe, George, Turiyatva etc.) is a state, i.e. the basis (sthana). It is unaffected by either knowledge or ignorance, cannot be improved or damaged, is permanent, self-originated, empty, radiant, etc.,  has the three kāyas, everyone possesses it, and so on -- you know the drill.

Anyway, I am tired of debating people -- -suit yourself.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: Cleansing the physical body of bad toxins
Content:
Wesley1982 said:
What's the best way to cleanse the physical body of bad toxins? thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
Colorado Cleanse

http://www.lifespa.com " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition,

Kunga Lhadzom said:
So even if you understand, you still need a dzogchen master (living), to bless you with his realization, before your understanding is authentic ?

Malcolm wrote:
Transmission itself is the only blessing you need.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 5:07 AM
Title: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 123-124). Kindle Edition.
Dzogchen is not a school or sect, or a religious system. It is simply a state of knowledge which masters have transmitted beyond any limits of sect or monastic tradition.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 171-172). Kindle Edition.
A monk, without giving up his vows, can perfectly well practice Dzogchen, as can a Catholic priest, a clerk, a workman, and so on, without having to abandon their role in society, because Dzogchen does not change people from the outside.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 183-184). Kindle Edition.
Every religion, every spiritual teaching, has its basic philosophical principles, its characteristic way of seeing things. Within the philosophy of Buddhism alone, for example, there have arisen different systems and traditions, often disagreeing with each other only over subtleties of interpretation of the fundamental principles. In Tibet these philosophical controversies have lasted up until the present day, and the resulting polemical writings now form a whole body of literature in itself. But in Dzogchen no importance at all is attached to philosophical opinions and convictions. The way of seeing in Dzogchen is not based on intellectual knowledge, but on an awareness of the individual's own true condition.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 185-189). Kindle Edition.
All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 193-195). Kindle Edition.
For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-163). Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
You are to only one using the word mandatory Dechen. I hear a lot of bitterness in you but I can't see how I have anything to do with that.

/magnus

Dechen Norbu said:
There's no bitterness here. I'm explaining what I'm doing, that's all. Can you stop guessing my mental states and intentions, please? Trying to place a negative emotional charge where there is none won't do much good for the discussion.

Adamantine said:
This is the tragedy of online communication. . . (you've done this to me a bunch lately too Dechen, and I am sure I'm guilty as well!) Maybe we all need to realize internet communication is tone-deaf and do our best to give everyone's intentions and moods the benefit of the doubt. Let's at the very least assume everyone's motivation is altruistic in the sense of trying to benefit others through personal experience and clarifying aspects of teachings according to each person's given understanding. Naturally, this will be different for each person, -for so many reasons!


Malcolm wrote:
Come on man, it is really simple -- we DC people know what ChNN teaches, and we are constantly told we are wrong.

This is an old story and it goes back to E-Sangha days. It is a skipping CD.

Do we know that there is Dzogchen outside of the DC, of course. But the fact remains that the way our teacher teaches really is quite different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Energetics of Thought
Content:
underthetree said:
Something I've found, both in meditation and in everday life is that, when a thought arises and I look at it and let it dissolve, I always experience a physical sensation, either in the area of my heart, my solar plexus or occasionally roughly in my sinuses. The same applies for emotion. This is a sort of faint physical tremor or thrill accompanied by a sensation which is neither pleasant or unpleasant. From my limited understanding of Tibetan esoteric physiology I'm guessing that this is a function or manifestation of lung, but I'd like to know more.


Malcolm wrote:
Thoughts are rlung. When your lung does not move, thoughts do not arise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.
Content:
Jacob said:
but what can he teach me that e.g. ChNNR can't?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing. He is teaching dream yoga from the perspective of Kagyu. While it is a fine teaching, it has nothing to do with the practice of the night as taught by ChNN.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
In general it is an anti-intellectual, hedonistically oriented, aggressive monoculture.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh bullshit.

kirtu said:
I'm surprised by your flight to ad hominems and illogic.  Please calm yourself.

One solution would be for you to spend 3-5 years in Western Europe outside of a strictly American environment.  You might not agree with me, but the arguments would make more sense to you.

Malcolm wrote:
I have spent a lot of time in Europe. I like Europe.

kirtu said:
However my argument is with all of western culture as a font of death and misery.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh please.



kirtu said:
I am not advocating religious government.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the only way your Dharmic society will happen.

Unless of course you agree with my perspective of individual evolution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Real Marijuana as Herbal Medicine?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you don't practice, herb is fine. If you do, herb is a fetter.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
In general it is an anti-intellectual, hedonistically oriented, aggressive monoculture.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh bullshit.

kirtu said:
US citizens do not understand that they are basically a monoculture and certainly deny it.  One of the reasons is that US people largely have not experienced other societies.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not a monoculture at all. Seriously, kirt, get over your trip.

kirtu said:
I'm stunned that you could assert that US culture is not superficial intellectually.  Just look at the level of "discussion" on various topics in the US on most levels.

Malcolm wrote:
You watch too much goddamn TV.



kirtu said:
As far as TV, I don't experience societies through TV.

Malcolm wrote:
It is the only way you can come to your conclusion.


Again, your top down approach is totalitarian. I prefer American Democracy along with all its warts and mistakes.
Once again, it's not a top down approach and I am not advocating totalitarianism.  This is at least the second time in two forums that you have accused me of totalitarianism and that is highly offensive.
Right, just as offensive as the bullshit you have been spewing in this thread, if you don't like America, than move.

AFAIC, any religious government will ultimately result in totalitarianism.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
IMHO,
The Diamond Sutra is a Dzogchen teaching.  Also The Heart Sutra.   Any teaching on Emptiness really...no ?


Malcolm wrote:
Indirectly, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


heart said:
"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, that is quite different. Mañjuśrī nāmasaṃgiti is not a Dzogchen tantra, and can be understood in many different ways. That being said, there are passages in the Nāmasaṃgiti which show up in Dzogchen tantras, such as "The single eye of wisdom is stainless".

But you will never find Sakyamuni giving a teaching on Dzogchen in an explicit way.

heart said:
This is an exact quote.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I know. Nevertheless, ChNN also maintains that Shakyamuni never taught Dzogchen explicitly. I have heard him say it any number time. Man you are stubborn.

It is getting to the fraking point on this board that unless you come armed with a volume of fraking citations you cannot say anything.

Kunsanggar, June 1st, 2001:
"Buddha Shakyamuni did not directly teach Dzogchen. Not only  Buddha Sakyamuni, but some of the other twelve teachers did not directly give Dzogchen teachings. They communicated indirectly because the essence of their teaching is Dzogchen."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

What do you mean: 1) ChNN says that Shakyamuni taught Dzogchen 2) he predicted Garab Dorje?

heart said:
What is wrong with calling him "the precious Dharma King Namkhai Norbu"?

For the rest, see above.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing, it simply is not necessary. His formal title is Chogyal, that is more proper than "Rinpoche". You could call him Chogyal Rinpoche, which is how he was known in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
Who taught Sakyamuni dzogchen?
The 11th  Ngöndzok Gyalpo ?
Did Sakyamuni recieve pointing out from Ngondzok ?

Malcolm wrote:
According to the Bonpos, Shakyamuni received Dzogchen teachings from Shenrab when the former incarnated as Sangba Dupa.

But in a way that is a wrong question, Shakyamuni did not need anyone to give him transmission since he was a nirmanakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

Dechen Norbu said:
Sources, please.

heart said:
"An oral commentary to Narag Tontrug" page 11: "In fact the Manjushri Tantra, which contains many oral transmissions and teachings, was taught by Shakyamuni through particular manifestations, and through these teachings he transmitted knowledge and understanding of the state of Dzogchen"

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, that is quite different. Mañjuśrī nāmasaṃgiti is not a Dzogchen tantra, and can be understood in many different ways. That being said, there are passages in the Nāmasaṃgiti which show up in Dzogchen tantras, such as "The single eye of wisdom is stainless".

But you will never find Sakyamuni giving a teaching on Dzogchen in an explicit way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Twelve_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !


Malcolm wrote:
yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.

heart said:
ChNNR says he did.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
BTW, point of protocol, it is either Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. If you use one you do not need the other.

What do you mean: 1) ChNN says that Shakyamuni taught Dzogchen 2) he predicted Garab Dorje?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Twelve_teachers Even Buddha Sakyamuni is considered a dzogchen teacher !


Malcolm wrote:
yes, though he did not teach any Dzogchgen texts directly, he predicted Garab Dorje.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
When and where did dzogchen begin?
Wasn't it taught in other parts of the Universe before comming to Earth ?
Who was the first teacher in the Universe ?

Malcolm wrote:
1) Dzogchen teachings are primordial, they have no beginning. They arise out of the very fabric of reality.

2) Dzogchen is mentioned in the sgra thal gyur tantra to have been taught in 13 other places besides this one.

3) The first teacher of Dzogchen in this great eonic cycle is usually considered to be Nangwa Dampa, the first of the 12 primordial masters, who taught all the man ngage sde tantras including the primary root tantra of Dzogchen, the sgra thal gyur.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2012 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Bhusuku said:
One quick question: What is actually the earliest source for the Ngöndro practice, and how old is that source?


Malcolm wrote:
Ngondro as a formal set of practices developed in Tibet between the 11th and 13th century. You will find no Ngondro texts in the bstan 'gyur.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Pero said:
Yudron was saying what is needed for accomplishment, and I'd say turning oneself into a qualified student (not just being an interested one) is a good part of that.

Malcolm wrote:
She does not use the word accomplishment once in her post. So I did not read it that way.

Pero said:
She does, you missed it:
Yudron said:
...but I've heard that accomplishment is based on 1) Having a qualified guru (someone who has brought his or her Dzogchen practice to culmination, this has been verified by his/her teacher, and who has been asked to teach Dzogchen based on this). 2) Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?) 3) Having pure view of one's guru. 4) Actually practicing daily.


Malcolm wrote:
I stand corrected.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
There's also a point I forgot to comment and I think it deserves a litte discussion. The bold part:
Yudron said:
It's really not a big deal, and it is pretty enjoyable.  So, there is no need to take 20 years to avoid something that takes three or four years.  Especially in the west where we are probably not even Buddhists before ngondro, we need at least that long to reorient to a Buddhist framework.

Dechen Norbu said:
The question is, does this Buddhist framework is really necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner?

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently not for Father Francis Tiso.

And here we go again...



M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
You are right Malcom, I am sorry.

Now do you understand that all of this isn't helping?

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on who you ask. It may not be helpful for you, which means you should put it aside.

In the bone yard said:
Please just remember that there are members on this board who do take their practice seriously and that your actions effect others.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I am quite aware of both things. What I do and say here is quite deliberate and not whimsical.I have to say your stalking of my posts on the board with your unwelcome and anonymous admonishments is becoming quite tiresome. Talk to someone who is interested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Pero said:
Yudron was saying what is needed for accomplishment, and I'd say turning oneself into a qualified student (not just being an interested one) is a good part of that.

Malcolm wrote:
She does not use the word accomplishment once in her post. So I did not read it that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I am 50 now and I am not as sharp as I was when I was younger but I guess its better late than never.

Malcolm wrote:
Sharp and dull is of no consequence on Dzogchen. The only thing that matters is personal experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell
Content:
Ikkyu said:
From what I understand, Madhyamaka is about finding balance in everything.

Anders said:
That's not really what Madhyamika, or the middle way in general, is about. It's just about steering clear of the extremes. In Madhyamika, that means the extremes of existence and non-existence.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, Ikkyu, you are talking about the Madhyamā pratipad i.e. the middle way path:

Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the household life. (What are the two?) There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy, and unprofitable.

Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (the Perfect One) has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata...? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:


kirtu said:
I said nothing about imposing a totalitarian system at all.  I did say we need to create a Dharmic culture.  Right now and basically forever, the US, as an example, is blind to the consequences of it's culture.

Malcolm wrote:
No we aren't.


kirtu said:
US culture permits (and in some view , insists upon) state murder (execution).  This is a consequence of the culture.  US culture also permits the blunt use of military force because it is a non-reflective culture

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree with this assessment.

kirtu said:
and as we have seen when a form of mass hysteria arises as a result of some severe trauma (9/11 and the partially justified view that terrorist want to kill everyone) indiscriminate military force is applied.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, and this isn't also happening in Europe? Haven't you noticed burgeoning rise of the far right in European politics -- did it escape your attention that Nato is involved in every war we have been in?

kirtu said:
One of the reasons that both are possible is the lack of compassion as a serious motivation in the society and from an intellectual POV the intense superficiality of the society, resulting in a tendency to not consider consequences or alternatives.

Malcolm wrote:
The American society I live in is not superficial, intellectually or otherwise. You need to read folks like Wendell Berry, etc. I honestly think you have not explored American culture beyond what you see on TV even though you have lived here your whole life.

kirtu said:
Certainly the bedrock values of a Dharmic culture would be compassion and the sancity of life.  These values are certainly no where near the core values of society, not even social democracies at this point.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, your top down approach is totalitarian. I prefer American Democracy along with all its warts and mistakes.

kirtu said:
However, people can follow Dharma as best they can, and they can be "mini-cultures". Evolution, as my teacher says, not revolution -- one person at a time.
That is certainly true but people also need to begin to change society to move it in a compassionate direction.

Malcolm wrote:
If and when people evolve, society will evolve, and not before.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
In an attempt to solve this situation, this topic was created.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just a rerun of conversations held at E-Sangha, with exactly the same players.

We are like old men in Miami arguing about a Dodgers game we both saw in the '50's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
We create an enlightenment culture, a Dharmic culture

Malcolm wrote:
We need to become integrated persons, then the rest will happen naturally. There is no way to create a top-down culture of the kind you envision, and I wouldn't want it anyway.

Why? Whose vision of Dharma are we to follow? Buddhists can't even agree on that (one of the reasons I don't consider myself a Buddhist anymore, after all, just what is Buddhism other than a demographic lable?). No, the whole idea of a "Dharmic" culture is problematical and ultimately, totalitarian.

However, people can follow Dharma as best they can, and they can be "mini-cultures". Evolution, as my teacher says, not revolution -- one person at a time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
The 4 Aspects of the Attainment of Freedom in Dzogchen is the same as the Basis of Purification in tantric scripture.

Malcolm wrote:
The basis of purification in Vajrayāna depends. In Lamdre for example, in general it is the five aggregates, etc. that is given as the basis of purification.

That is not the basis of purification in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
You are right Malcom, I am sorry.

Now do you understand that all of this isn't helping?

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on who you ask. It may not be helpful for you, which means you should put it aside.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
I agree Yudron, this whole discussion stems from a few people here having a Guru that says it isn't necessary for them to do Ngondro or Yidam and for some reason they translate that personal instruction to a universal truth that defines Dzogchen as a teaching.


Malcolm wrote:
That's because this is what that Guru tells them is universally true about Dzogchen as presented in the original tantras of Dzogchen, which is the perspective from which he teaches.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Yudron said:
2)  Being a qualified disciple (we skip over this part, don't we?)

Malcolm wrote:
If you have met Dzogchen teachings, you are a qualified disciple, in so far as you interested in practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: What is Yeshe?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ye shes is Dzogchen.

Sherab said:
Is Dzogchen neutral with regard to Wisdom? i.e. Dzogchen is Dzogchen whether Wisdom is present or not?  If yes, then since Ye shes is Dzog chen, then Ye shes is ye shes whether Wisdom is present or not.  If so, then using Wisdom in the translation of Ye shes would be inappropriate.

Malcolm wrote:
Wisdom is always present.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
That is nice Malcom, but you didn't say it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure I did. I said it to you.

In the bone yard said:
You are a Buddha.
---Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh Lectures


Hey Malcom,
I am a Buddha!

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are. Now act like one and stop giving me a hard time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
Virgo said:
Kirt, what do you propose we do about this so-called "problem of culture"?

kirtu said:
We create an enlightenment culture, a Dharmic culture, in which communal murder for one (and that's not the only thing, BTW) becomes as impossible as possible.  So a Dharmic Swedish culture of sorts.  And we change culture worldwide over a several century period to reflect this Dharmic culture.  This is not imposed on top of local culture per se but aspects of local culture are diminished that would lead to negative action and aspects of local culture that promote peace and kindness are enhanced.  So over time, all cultures become bodhisattvic in their own way.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism does not have good record in this department. There is nothing about any Buddhist culture which suggests a commitment to peace and kindness other verbal lip service.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
The cultures of all societies are harmful. ]
Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
I don't share your cynicism. But you're more interested in being "right" than sharing perspectives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


heart said:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.


heart said:
Perhaps in terms of view but concerning methods that would mean that you are limiting yourself.

Going to bed now, see you tomorrow!

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
View is what is being considered here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Invocation of Samantabhadra
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I know that ChNNR is giving a retreat for this in LA next week. What is its purpose? How is it used/practiced?


Malcolm wrote:
It is an essential teaching on the basis, and how ignorance happens and what to do about it in the form of a beautiful aspiration. It comes from a long tantra from the Gongpa Zangthal cycle


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


heart said:
If they are related in the terms of goal how could they be independent of each other? My understanding of the word "independent" is something like "unrelated".

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
In the same way that three different roads are independent and lead to the same destination. But, you can only travel one road at a time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
That is nice Malcom, but you didn't say it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure I did. I said it to you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.

heart said:
If they lack relation in terms of goal it makes no sense to differentiate them.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
They are related in terms of goal, that is the point of differentiating them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


heart said:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.

M

heart said:
Yes, exactly.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and in contrast to the approaches of these eight or nine yāna, Dzogchen presents its own independent approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation?
/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
They are contrasted so one can understand the difference between them, why they are different, how they are different, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Do you think Dzogchen is not independent of Vajrayāna?

heart said:
Depends on what you mean by independent, Dzogchen is always presented as a part of Vajrayana. "I am Manjusrimitra, who have attained the siddhi of Yamantaka." Anyway, nothing in this world is independent.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
What I mean by independent is that Dzogchen has its unique approach. It does not mean that Dzogchen cannot be approached thorugh mahā and anuyoga; it can; but it also has its own approach. Thus my Guru has said, and likewise my reading in early Dzogchen tantras bear this out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M

heart said:
If they were truly independent why would you need to use renunciation and transformation to explain self-liberation? Why would Kunjed Gyalpo go on and on aboutwhy Dzogchen is superior to the Mahayoga and Anuyoga?
/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen takes a critical posture towards the eight yanas (even the nine yanas), just as Vajrayāna takes a critical posture towards Mahayāna, and Mahāyāna, a critical posture towards hinayāna.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
If we are low intellect we cannot expect to understand and practice Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
If this is practiced, all will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharpness and dullness in capacities.

--- Flight of the Garuda

There are many other citations to similar effect. If you have the good fortune to meet Dzogchen, you can practice it and acheive liberation, regardless of who you are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
heart said:
Oh, and I am pretty bored with this discussion because nothing new ever appear in it.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
renunciation
transformation
self-liberation

Three different paths, independent of each other.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:


heart said:
There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There are practices which come from the three series which are independent. They can be mixed with practices from the lower yanas or not.

How many more rounds do you want to fight until you get bored with it?

heart said:
Instead of just claiming Dzogchen is completely and fully independent of Vajrayana, how about you try to prove it? I have seen no proofs at all yet.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Do you think Dzogchen is not independent of Vajrayāna?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
mutsuk said:
No, not in the Nyingthiks.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.

heart said:
The  "klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud" is not real Dzogchen?  Is that what you are saying?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
It explains why there is a difference between the kama tradition on this point and the terma tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

And doing Ngondro before Rushen, Trekcho, etc. is traditional for Dzogchen integrated with lower Yanas.

And both ways are perfectly fine, and are also both "traditional" in their own way, yes?

heart said:
There is no "pure Dzogchen" it is a pipe dream.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There are practices which come from the three series which are independent. They can be mixed with practices from the lower yanas or not.

How many more rounds do you want to fight until you get bored with it?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, he said "direct introduction". Why? Beause in Dzogchen Buddhahood exists to be demonstrated. If it is not demonstrated, there is no liberation, even though it is present from the beginning.

heart said:
Exactly, and how do that happen? There are no rules, so stop pretending that there is.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Did I say anything about rules? Mutsuk was making a claim, proposing that there was always a sutra and Vajrayāna style ngondro attached to Dzogchen teachings and that this is evident in Nyinthig. Well, it is evident in Khandro Nyinthig tradition, but is not evident in the early 12th century Vima Nyinthig tradition. Even in the third Karmapa's commentary on the Vima Nyinthig, it is the seven mind trainings that are offered, unlike Kongtrul's large commentary on the Mother and son Nyinthigs, which has a standard ngondro attached.

After all, if you have confidence in the teachings, believe in your guru, and have compassion, what more do you need?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Jacob said:
Yeah, i always wonder if this white A is in sphere or it is flat. I asked some elder practicioners and i got two different answers. I think it doesn't matter ;p


Malcolm wrote:
It is in a thigle i.e. a sphere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Well, going straight to Rushen, Trekcho, etc. straight from Direct Introduction is traditional for pure Dzogchen.

mutsuk said:
No, not in the Nyingthiks.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in the Vima Nyinthig this is exactly how it is and how it is laid out in the shal chems in the gser yig can.

This changes with the introduction of the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud which most likely dates to early-mid thirteenth century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
mutsuk said:
Therefore, the main way Dzogchen is being taught is through a traditional approach.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, everywhere but the DC.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
mutsuk said:
This is the purpose of the direct introduction. As Vimalamitra says at the beginning of his 1st volume commentary on the Dra Thelgyur, the Path of Dzogchen consists of the gradual steps explained in this Tantra. This involves ordinary preliminaries, etc, together with Rushen, etc., and of course the four Visions.

Malcolm wrote:
Page numbers?

I am looking at that section, and it starts with rushan following receiving the four empowerments. But I don't see refuge, mandala, etc.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
mutsuk said:
but its a gradual path anyway.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, we will agree to disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
heart,

I'll quote Malcom as this reply of his fits your comments about using the traditional ngöndro to get rid of doubt.

More, SMS base level is not particularly related to Garab Dorje's second statement.

heart said:
So it is connected with his first statement? Seem so you didn't get my point, what practice you do don't necessary correspond with any of the the three statements so I think when ChNNR says that Garab Dorje didn't say "first do the Ngondro" that is just a joke because for sure he didn't say "first do Guru Yoga with a white Ah" either nor did he say "first do lodjongs, semdzins and rushan" or "first do Semde" or any other method at all. It is between you and your Guru what you do and when.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
No, he said "direct introduction". Why? Beause in Dzogchen Buddhahood exists to be demonstrated. If it is not demonstrated, there is no liberation, even though it is present from the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 17th, 2012 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
mutsuk said:
To the extent that there is a path in Dzogchen, that path consists of discovering what you have not discovered.

Malcolm wrote:
Not only, it deals with becoming familiar with what you were not. The DC usually forget about the Tsel of Rigpa and the related practice.

[/quote]

As for your first sentence, this is a quibble.

As for the second part, No, you are wrong.


mutsuk said:
This is the reason for the special preliminaries as I am sure you will agree.
Yes sure, but not only, these preliminaries have purposes too.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, a given practice can have ultimate as well as temporary benefits.


mutsuk said:
So, there is a path to discovering this knowledge, but it is not really gradual in the sense of gathering the two accumulations and so on as in sutra and tantra.
The understanding is not gradual, nobody said so. But it takes an entire life to become so familiar with the dynamic nature of the state to reach its ultimate expression. So it's gradual. Those who went from the 1st to the 4th vision are more than quite rare in the entire history of Dzogchen. For the 99,99 per cent remaining, including giganticly advanced masters, there is a path to follow. This Path is explained in the entire Dzogchen literature and it's its purpose. Any Path is gradual, even terribly abrupt ones. This is why Trekcho is a View and Thogel a Meditation (or a Path depending on authors).

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone can have the first vision. Most people manage the second vision with relative ease. Many, though less, even manage the third.

For example, the Rigpa Rangshar has a detailed presentation of the 21 capacities. Only the best of the best acheive the body of light in this lifetime. Most of the rest acheive buddhahood in the bardo after varying length of time after death. The rest take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields.

The energy of the wisdom of rigpa neither increases nor does it decrease regardless of the four visions.

The "path" in Dzogchen is not like "path" in other systems, where you start out from point a and wind up at point b. The "path" of Dzogchen is simple removing the jaundice of ignorance so you see what is there all along from the begining. It is not about acquiring something new you did have before.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, it is not a gradual approach. Nothing in Dzogchen is gradual. If it is gradual, it is not Dzogchen, even if it is useful.

mutsuk said:
It is indeed a gradual approach compared to the way other lamas teach this Testament. Moreover, everything that has a Path is gradual. You must not conflate Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa.

Malcolm wrote:
It is best if we agree to disagree.

It could only be gradual if you consider sems sde gradual (it isn't). Instead, it is scheme outlining the intention of the three series in very broad strokes.

Dzogchen is a kind of knowledge: you either have it or you don't. To the extent that there is a path in Dzogchen, that path consists of discovering what you have not discovered. This is the reason for the special preliminaries as I am sure you will agree.

So, there is a path to discovering this knowledge, but it is not really gradual in the sense of gathering the two accumulations and so on as in sutra and tantra.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
More, SMS base level is not particularly related to Garab Dorje's second statement.

mutsuk said:
Garab Dorje's Testament is strictly an Upadesha, as can be seen in the commentaries by Dza Patrul and others. This is not a text dealing with Semde or Longde. Only ChNN Rinpoche interprets it as a gradual approach to Dzogchen. THis is not the case with any other master alive or in the past. I don't mean it's wrong, it's just simply not the case. His gradual approach to the Testament of Garab Dorje is not the traditional one.


Malcolm wrote:
That is correct, ChNN clearly states that his equation of the three statements with sems sde, klong sde, and man ngag sde is based on his dreams and is not an explanation one will find in any other master's teachings.

However, it is not a gradual approach. Nothing in Dzogchen is gradual. If it is gradual, it is not Dzogchen, even if it is useful.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Copyrighted Dharma books
Content:
LastLegend said:
Every translation is someone's intellectual property. However, there are movements to make everything available for free on the web, like the following:

http://84000.co/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What is intellectual property?

Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Copyrighted Dharma books
Content:


LastLegend said:
Right. What about teachings that are not intellectual properties?

Malcolm wrote:
Every translation is someone's intellectual property. However, there are movements to make everything available for free on the web, like the following:

http://84000.co/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Copyrighted Dharma books
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Buddha also did not need to get paid, he left his family and had no one to support. He lived under trees, did not have a mortgage, wrote nothing down, did not distribute books, etc.

LastLegend said:
True. It is understandable that printing books cost money, and people need to make a living. But why copyrighted?

Malcolm wrote:
Because a lot of things written about buddhism are people's own intellectual property.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:
Sönam said:
Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Sonam:

While what you say is true, in general Dzogchen is not "secret"; ChNN also regularly reminds people that Dzogchen practices are not to be shared with people who do not have the proper transmission. "Secret" and samaya are different. "Secret" means that no one should know. Samaya means that you can discuss with people who have same transmission. "rgya rgya rgya" means that you should maintain the samaya of body, of speech, and of mind with regard to the teachings. It just means to take care to not share them with people who are not interested, to not think to do so, speak about them, or show them with your body.

̆But "samaya" does not mean "secret" -- it comes from two words "sam + yama" -- it really means "keeping perfect discipline".

M

Sönam said:
Thank you for precision ... also I don't think I have really made such a mistake. I don't think that to considere my short answer to someone having followed the concerned teachings could be considered as a failure of my samaya. Anyway I will try to be more attentive next time.


Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Sonam:

I was not criticizing you -- I was trying to bring some clarity to the issue of "secret" as opposed to what is appropriate to share. I think in general people in Dzogchen confuse the idea with "secret" with samaya. There is very little in Dzogchgen that is "secret" unlike tantric practices. There are many things in Vajrayāna that are secret in a concrete way. But it is not like that in Dzogchen. So we are in broad agreement. I just wanted to clarify that while Dzogchen is not secret, we still have samaya not to share things with people who are not interested.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Copyrighted Dharma books
Content:
LastLegend said:
I don't mean to upset people with this post at all. But lately it came to me that Buddha had taught Dharma for 49 years of his life, but he never claimed that what he taught came from him. Today, there are Dharma books that have personal copyrights that require permission from the publishers or writers for redistribution. Should Dharma teachings be freely available to all sentient beings? Please shed some lights and share your thoughts.

Keep in mind that I am not saying copyrighted Dharma books are not helpful. I hope I am not upsetting anyone.

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Buddha also did not need to get paid, he left his family and had no one to support. He lived under trees, did not have a mortgage, wrote nothing down, did not distribute books, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Apologies all. This is the DC thread. Yes you are right Mariusz.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Andrew:

Yes, what you have said is more or less what ChNN has said many times.

With one caveat, there really is a potentiality of the five elements within our body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:
Sönam said:
Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Sonam:

While what you say is true, in general Dzogchen is not "secret"; ChNN also regularly reminds people that Dzogchen practices are not to be shared with people who do not have the proper transmission. "Secret" and samaya are different. "Secret" means that no one should know. Samaya means that you can discuss with people who have same transmission. "rgya rgya rgya" means that you should maintain the samaya of body, of speech, and of mind with regard to the teachings. It just means to take care to not share them with people who are not interested, to not think to do so, speak about them, or show them with your body.

̆But "samaya" does not mean "secret" -- it comes from two words "sam + yama" -- it really means "keeping perfect discipline".

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: What is Yeshe?
Content:
Sherab said:
Yeshe + Rigpa of Dzogpa Chenpo = Sherab of Dzogpa Chenpo

Therefore the use of Wisdom in translating Yeshe seems inappropriate.

What then is Yeshe?
It is that which has the ability to perceive Dzogpa Chenpo.
A Yeshe that has not perceive Dzogpa Chenpo is the mundane mind.

What do you think?


Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, shes rab and rig pa are basically synonymous.

Ye shes is Dzogchen.

A rig pa that has not recognized ye shes is ma rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:
mutsuk said:
Since nearly all Dzogchen texts state that you have to have accomplished Ngöndro before and have to perform your training in the main teaching (trekcho and thogel) in retreat, I know where I have to establish my trust.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it sure does not say this in any of the three series of Dzogchen tantras (of which I have thus far read). I put my trust in the original Dzogchen tantras.

If people want to follow masters that teach in the established traditional way, they can and ought to if it feels right for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: some questions about dzogchen
Content:


mutsuk said:
[EDIT: mutsuk's off topic comments removed] As Malcolm have told you before, JLA's description of the traditional Dzogchen curriculum (in his book on Khenpo Gangshar) is the same as that of SMS. JLA is not forwarding his own program as you claim everywhere but the traditional program. Period. Or you have to concede that Yongdzin Rinpoche and many other masters are not qualified, serious, etc., in your own view. But hey, how long have you been into Dzogchen and still not distinguish the state and the individual ?


Malcolm wrote:
While it is true that in SMS there is a gradual way proceeding in the base and the first level, it is hyper-abbreviated compared to the traditional approach, the emphasis being on gaining experience in each of the topics. The practice amounts recommended are just recommendations, with a minimum of a week for somethings, and a day for other things.

But the important thing to remember is that SMS is not mandatory, and everything that ChNN teaches in SMS he also teaches in other contexts. SMS was originally designed for teacher training -- and is a comprehensive approach to the various systems found in Dzogchen.

Also, his longsal cycle is a completely different -- and is not connected with SMS at all.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2012 at 1:09 PM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When we talk about preserving culture, we are talking about music, art, crafts, literature, sciences, medicine, healing traditions, etc., the things that make human life wonderful and diverse.

We are not talking about preserving deviant or exploitative social and economic phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Ogyen said:
I wonder why this list specifically and not other animals...?  And was this purely for the Vinaya (part of their many vows?) or for lay persons as well?

Huseng said:
In the case of elephant flesh, the elephant King Bimbisāra died and the low caste butchers went to go eat it, along with a few monks. Some people asked the Buddha about this and the rule against eating elephant flash was established. In the case of vultures, as the story goes the monks ate some vulture meat and a bunch of them followed them into the woods, squawking at them, whereupon the Buddha then banned the consumption of vulture flesh.

It was a case by case basis.

Human flesh was apparently used in medicine.

Malcolm wrote:
Everything can be medicine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
Thanks. Yes, I know that is what Rinpoche said. I am just wondering if that emptiness is the same emptiness as one of the three experiences of body, speech and mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Not the same.

Clarence said:
Thank you Malcolm-la. Guess this whole Rigpa thing isn't so easy as it seems in the beginning.

Malcolm wrote:
The experience of emptiness is a state free from thought.

Ka dag emptiness is a fundamental feature of the basis, it is the emptiness discussed in madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Sönam said:
Rinpoché says

"Non dual of Kadhag and Lundhrub is Dzogchen. Kadhag means, emptiness since the beginning pure. Lundhrub means it has infinite potentiality ... and non dual you have to discovere "

______
Sönam

Clarence said:
Thanks. Yes, I know that is what Rinpoche said. I am just wondering if that emptiness is the same emptiness as one of the three experiences of body, speech and mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Not the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
Title: Re: @DalaiLama
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
@DalaiLama
I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

Huifeng said:
Great.

But, what does he mean by "religion", "spirituality" and "ethics", exactly?

~~ Huifeng

Malcolm wrote:
Religion -- Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc.

Spirituality -- compassion, kindness, love, openess

Ethics -- valuing life


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:


kirtu said:
Witch burning...

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
No, witches emerged from pagan European culture, but because the Church wanted to control medicine, they instituted a progrom against healers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:


kirtu said:
Well this is just a fact.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is your opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
So the better aspects of culture can eventually trump evolutionary impulses.

Malcolm wrote:
Your arguments are not about culture, they are about crimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
Like most Americans you want to ignore serious issues and hope they go away.  Of course this isn't just an American issue but many western Europeans are prepared to engage on these issues after a beer or two.


Malcolm wrote:
You have a very chauvanistic attitude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:


Sönam said:
You're possibly right at the end of the bill. But women have also been preserved from such oppressions as war, responsibilities and a long list of others delikatessen of the kind ...

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe in the upper classes but not in the lower classes (hint, there are more of them).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
kirtu said:
What in these examples is praiseworthy and worth preserving?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot sum up a whole culture in its faults. That is rather racist.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
conebeckham said:
Perhaps the question should better be "in what human culture(s) are females NOT oppressed, as compared to males?"

Precious few, I think.

Sönam said:
It depends how you view oppression. I think thousands years of male education have created some habituation that men have to deal with ... and it's not easy for them. I can easily compare that man's oppression to the woman's oppression, and I'm not sure which one is the heaviest ... if even there is one heaviest.

Sönam


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, women's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:


oldbob said:
Me thinks ye are hoist by your own petard,

Malcolm wrote:
I never offer instructions here, only opinions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:
oldbob said:
My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.

Malcolm wrote:
I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.

oldbob said:
Malcolm,

Respectfully,

"Eat a nectarine it's the best fruit ever made."

Respectfully,

ob

Malcolm wrote:
Bob:

When someone asks you teach, then you teach, in a proper way, in a proper place, at a proper time.

Otherwise, offering unasked for instructions is a mistake.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2012 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:
oldbob said:
My offering of a non-verbal experience in a simple practice, is a non-verbal way of possibly answering that question.

Malcolm wrote:
I am pretty certain he told you he was not interested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:



oldbob said:
Mia Culpa, please forgive me.

Malcolm wrote:
Bob,

Sharing instructions no one asked for is a little strange.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 10:55 PM
Title: @DalaiLama
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
@DalaiLama
I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: George W Bush in Game of Thrones
Content:
Clarence said:
At 1:10 his head is on a stake.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the profile, slight resemblance, I guess.

M

Clarence said:
Yeah, that's it. There is some ruckus about it. Apparently the DVD has extras where they explained they used Bush's head because their budget was too strained to make new ones every time.


Malcolm wrote:
Hilarious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: George W Bush in Game of Thrones
Content:
Clarence said:
At 1:10 his head is on a stake.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the profile, slight resemblance, I guess.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: George W Bush in Game of Thrones
Content:
Clarence said:
Who would have thought:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Not very cool but interesting on how little we notice really.

Malcolm wrote:
Not seeing it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 9:27 AM
Title: Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
By the way:

Murthugpa = Barhaspatya

Malcolm wrote:
Where is your source for this?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 8:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR - pricing and costing issues
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Afterwards is the profit counted..........


Malcolm wrote:
Not in Dzogchen Community.


kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

That is what i do believe blindfolded.  

Mutsog Marro
KY

Malcolm wrote:
You do not understand how things work in the DC, nor should you presume too. But the fact is that profit is not a motive on any level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 8:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR - pricing and costing issues
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Afterwards is the profit counted..........


Malcolm wrote:
Not in Dzogchen Community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:
Sally Gross said:
I wonder whether Rigdzin Changchub Dorje's gar, in which each would seem to have given according to ability and to have received according to need, is not a model which underpins the constitution of the Dzogchen Community fostered by Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
It is the model for the community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.


Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M


kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

The whole Dharma does consist out of only words.
It is the meaning of those words which is important but also the correct use of it.

Malcolm wrote:
what is important is the meaning behind the words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Bob:

You have been complaining about this issue for years. The fact is that there are options for people if they seek them out. There are disability/low income memberships.

Media costs money to produce.

I happen to know for a fact that the financial policies in the DC come directly from ChNN. When you complain about the money, you are complaining about the boss.

M



oldbob said:
Respectfully, nope.

The Boss is Perfect, and whatever he does is Perfect (my mother right or wrong) but working with circumstances, allows himself to be conditioned by the people advising him.  Some people say this has been less than perfect, for the Dzogchen Community.  Sure you can say, "It's not so bad" and "it could be a lot worse," and while true, DOESN'T HELP ANYONE FROM MOLDOVA.

How often do the members of the International Gaykil change?  Did you ever try to collaborate on the "Collaboration" website?  Maybe as the Community evolves, the advisors, and advice, could evolve too.

Respectfully,

ob

Malcolm wrote:
Bob, you are aware that the pricing structure of memberships and so on for people in Eastern Europe and Russia is completely different than for Western Europeans?

Tashigar South is cheaper than Tsegyalgar?

Anyway, it is best we not be too attached to our opinions, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:


heart said:
ever considered writing your biography oldbob? I will read it,

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Bob has had a very interesting life. He lived in India for many years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Bob:

You have been complaining about this issue for years. The fact is that there are options for people if they seek them out. There are disability/low income memberships.

Media costs money to produce.

I happen to know for a fact that the financial policies in the DC come directly from ChNN. When you complain about the money, you are complaining about the boss.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2012 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....
Content:


heart said:
Not comparing him to you Malcolm, anyway we never met IRL.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I am not an oral translator. I was a) discouraged from learning colloquial Tibetan by my original Tibetan teacher b) I have spent insufficient time in Tibetan communities to gain oral fluency c) Colloquial Tibetan is of little use in translating Dharma texts.

And no, we never met in meatspace.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The power issues in the gars is ameliorated by the fact that board of directors must rotate every three years. No one can be a member of the board for more than three years.

M

Sönam said:
In theory ... I had the personnal experience in a specific relation that, once one has been engaged in a responsibility, one stay involved as a consulting reference and impact Gar relations over his mandate.

Sönam


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, one weakness of the model is that the Gakyil loses its memory every three years. Another problem is that sometimes people only go onto the Gakyil because they do not like the way things were being run. But the latter is not a good motivation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:


conebeckham said:
I dunno the Gars from Timbuktu, of course, so my words may not reflect accurately on the situation.  Just some general observations.

Malcolm wrote:
Different gars, different energies. Tsegyalgar is a bit heavy sometimes, but maybe that is because it is in New England.

The power issues in the gars is ameliorated by the fact that board of directors must rotate every three years. No one can be a member of the board for more than three years.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.


Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M

Sönam said:
Then you don't translate ... you take it as it already is.

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Correct -- or in my case, backtranslate it to vidyā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....
Content:
username said:
...I remember Frances Garrett's ebook affected your views.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all -- her book is an excellent summary of the available gestational models in various cycles, TTM, Kalacakra and Rgra thal gyur, etc.



username said:
On another point, Ayurveda as a source, has really just been taken up in recent decades properly, just like all Tibetan Studies, and needs much more research.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Like the Four Tantra's (in which respect is paid to Bonpos in terms of which tradition to which one should resort when doing rites to dipell provocations), the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita is a text, which while authored by a follower of Buddhadharma, pays respect to Brahmins and others in terms of the customs a patient might use as their spiritual support.

username said:
Thirdly the aspects of language theory you are referring to affect not only Tibetan studies but all fields as a century of European theorists have been debating. It is a vast area.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed. My work is just a drop in a vast sea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....
Content:
username said:
All translators, like all writers, have judgments and views which they can not stop coming across. Also every translation, or any writing, affects each reader uniquely.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is true. I just try to translate the text as accurately as I can, taking the meaning into account first. Thus, when I see a term like sang rgyas I just translate it as Buddha, buddhahood, etc. without making too much judgment unless there is a play on words in the text.

Actually for all the recent sturm and drung about this and that "view" of mine, I really try very hard to be as transparent in my translations as possible. Of course, you are right, I have to make choices, but I hope that my choices based on my 23 years as a Dharma practitioner are informed primarily by my practice of these teachings. To be honest, the greatest single thing that changed the way I linguistically looked at Dzogchen texts in particular was studying Tibetan Medicine. Dzogchen language, like the language of medicine is not static, it is dynamic, process-oriented, where as the language of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc., is very static.

One thing people forget is that there is a close connection with Dzogchen and Tibetan doctors. Even Chetsun Senge Wangchuk was a doctor, and many great tertons, like Rigdzin Godem, Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo, Kongtrul, Khyentse, etc., were skilled physicians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....
Content:
username said:
You have a talent in pithy precise definitions but every translator's hues of judgments comes true. Maybe that is why you keep changing them.

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure which judgements you mean. But every translation is a learning experience and an opportunity for learning and refinement.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....
Content:


username said:
Thanks to Erik's translations similar to this over the decades who is the best lotsawa IMO and whose mastery technically in vocabulary and context is even more apt than Valby IMO whose dictionary is fantastic too, nevermind lessers.

Malcolm wrote:
Hey, I thought you said I might be the best English translator:
Your work here is benefiting many and I hope it continues in force as well as looking forward to your translations as I think you might be the best living English translator
But it is not really a competition since my spoken Tibetan sucks...Erik is a fine translator. So is Valby, and a host of others.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.


Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Word of the Day
Content:
simhamuka said:
kor-wa -- circumambulate

བསྐར་བ་

Malcolm wrote:
བསྐོར་བ.

You left off the naro.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
P.s.: I hope that this dark blue colour is ok for your eyes.

Malcolm wrote:
You could just choose to use the quote tags. It is much easier for everyone to read.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers
Content:
asunthatneversets said:
But charging $10,000 for a teaching is ludicrous, that isn't right IMO.

Malcolm wrote:
Bob was referring to a voluntary donation made to a Lama in order to sponser a teaching.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Life history of Maitripa ?
Content:
DarwidHalim said:
Hi All,

Do you have the story of life history of Maitripa?

I come accross that he is the mahasidda who didnt follow tantric practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Um, not, this is not correct. This is the main form of Vajrayogini he promulgated from his vision of her:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:


Anders said:
So basically no difference between sensing each other 'face to face' and sensing each other through the online medium, if I understand you correctly?

Malcolm wrote:
For the purposes of communication, nope. If smell or touch is involved, as in some empowerments, there is an issue -- but for transmitting refuge, bodhisattva vows, teachings, etc., there is no problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2012 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:


jundo cohen said:
Any questions? One can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, I suppose.

Gassho, Jundo
...stating that face-to-face encounters are “the basis for evaluating a student’s readiness for ordination and eventually membership in the SZBA.” By “face-to-face,” the SZBA board means “in the same physical room.

Malcolm wrote:
This statement betrays a basic lack of understanding of how the material aggregates is defined.

M

Anders said:
As a point of curiosity - how are we to understand how the material aggregates are defined, for the purpose of evaluating a student’s readiness, sub-context of online interaction and all that?

Malcolm wrote:
The material aggregates include all five physical sense organs and sense objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Should be:
So we professionals don't really get a pass the same way privileged gurus do when they do not serve the best interests of their patients.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2012 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
xylem said:
if anything, vajrayana is about personal responsibility.

Malcolm wrote:
So is life.

xylem said:
what makes this difficult for western converts is that we give all of our responsibility away.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree with this sentiment at all.

xylem said:
we project all sorts of qualities and expectations from our own side that are completely unrelated to the lama's qualities and capabilities.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a two way street -- there is a cultural lack of comprehension on both sides.

xylem said:
we have some unnatural notion that the spiritual work is done from the side of the lama and not our own side.

Malcolm wrote:
No one I know has this idea.

xylem said:
...we come away from teachings high on some sort of contact lama buzz and reach for that again and again.

Malcolm wrote:
When there is such dependencies, it is not as if westerners are not being encouraged to become empowerment junkies.

xylem said:
if we thought about it rationally we'd know this is madness, but there is so much psychological need.  it's really hard to look beneath that veneer to even begin to examine the lama in a traditional way, and having built up all of this psychological projection around the lama, it's really difficult, even painful, to address a problem and walk away.  given all this, i think it's even more imperative to put the burden on responsibility of examining the lama entirely on the student.  why?  because there's a little bit of personal introspection and self-work we need to do to get to that point.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is all great, but in Vajrayāna students are disempowered in all kinds of direct and indirect fashions which makes examining teachers for proper qualities damn near impossible. Students are put in the catch-22 of comitting to lamas they do not know or missing out entirely because they do not trust the situation. For the most part, the cultural hierarchies that Tibetan Buddhism is embedded within make it virtually impossible to for students, especially beginning students to have a clear picture of their teachers. These memes and hierarchies are also exploited by western teachers. And this is not merely a problem in Vajrayāna, this is also a problem in Zen. (In Theravada it is a little more clear since lay teachers are compartively rare and monastic precepts are highly valued.) The of course there is the taboo again criticizing any lama from whom one has received transmission no matter how egregious their behavior has been. This taboo is actually more enforced by students than lamas. So there is enormous peer pressure within dysfunctional groups to regard the pathological behavior of Dipshit Rinpoche, etc., as "awakened activity".

So frankly, while I can appreciate the caveat emptor approach, we are too quick to divorce gurus from their own personal responsibilty to their students when we insist it is all on the student.


xylem said:
one has to come to some sense of personal responsibility for one's health and healing and have oriented their minds somewhat towards changing one's life.

Malcolm wrote:
As a physician of Tibetan Medicine myself I can appreciate your sentiment, but ultimately, if I am not correctly treating the patient, that does not lie at the feet of the patient, that is my fault. So we professionals don't really get a pass the same way privileged gurus do when they do serve the best interests of their patients.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2012 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen
Content:


jundo cohen said:
Any questions? One can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, I suppose.

Gassho, Jundo
...stating that face-to-face encounters are “the basis for evaluating a student’s readiness for ordination and eventually membership in the SZBA.” By “face-to-face,” the SZBA board means “in the same physical room.

Malcolm wrote:
This statement betrays a basic lack of understanding of how the material aggregates is defined.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Four forbidden fruits
Content:
Huseng said:
比邏婆

(H2) bilvá [p= 732,1] [L=145299] 	m. (in later language also vilva) Aegle Marmelos , the wood-apple tree (commonly called Bel ; its delicious fruit when unripe is used medicinally ; its leaves , are employed in the ceremonial of the worship of śiva ; cf. RTL. 336) AV. &c


While the transliteration seems to be pointing to this, I'd have to see if anywhere else this kind of fruit is banned.


Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, since in Chinese depictions of Bhaisajyaguru, this is the fruit he is depicted as holding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, not really. And spirit possession is painful and taxing, from what I understand.

Huseng said:
Okay, that clarifies what I was curious about.

In the context of this thread I thought it might shed some light on the possible mechanism by which a plant could be "inhabited" by a deva or spirit as the Jataka literature suggests.


Malcolm wrote:
As I opined before, there is little difference between presuming that our body is inhabited by an atman (popular Indian view) and the idea that a plant is inhabited by a deva. Certainly, there is plenty of evidence based on Jatakas and non-Buddhist sources that these tree devas regard their trees as their bodies.

Thus, I think it is basically a way of archaic method of talking about plant minds/bodies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
So I'm really wondering if I am interpreting ChNNR correctly in assuming that previous practice commitments are met through Guruyoga as he teaches it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Blue Garuda said:
Thanks.

I'm assuming Guruyoga is a daily practice for Dzogchen as taught by ChNNR.  It's being very productive for me and so is a personal commitment.  ChNNR doesn't seem to have given it as a formal practice commitment, but I'm assuming I should regard it as such anyway, with the White A for each morning, evening etc. ?

Malcolm wrote:
You should practice Ati Guru Yoga all the time, there are no specific sessions. Anytime you stop and take a break at work, while you are walking, driving, eating, making love, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Spirits do not have gross physical bodies, they lack visible form, according to Tibetan Medicine. In the case of an oracle like Nechung, the monk (and must be a monk) for example, will experience what we would call epilepsy. Then the monk in question will undergo years of training to make their channel system receptive to the various deities associated with Nechung. So effectively what happens is that entity seizes the prāṇa system of the body.

In terms of diseases caused by provocations, these manifest as different diseases depending on the type of provocation.

Huseng said:
So strictly speaking there is no idea that spirits can "inhabit" a body otherwise normally under the control of the original of another sattva?

Malcolm wrote:
No, not really. And spirit possession is painful and taxing, from what I understand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You can for example, rationalize that there are devas that inhabit plants as houses (standard Indo-Tibetan view), but as far as I am concerned this is merely a way of articulating the sentience of plants. It may be the case that plants acheive sentience only in communities, just like our body is not wholly sentient -- to use your example of a branch which can be propagated, also cells from our body may be propagated etc., and we certainly would not necessarily call either sentient in a conventional way.

Huseng said:
In Tibetan medicine how does spirit possession work in this context? Do they externally provoke symptoms or do they "hijack and infiltrate" a being (like a deva inhabiting a plant as a house)?

Malcolm wrote:
Spirits do not have gross physical bodies, they lack visible form, according to Tibetan Medicine. In the case of an oracle like Nechung, the monk (and must be a monk) for example, will experience what we would call epilepsy. Then the monk in question will undergo years of training to make their channel system receptive to the various deities associated with Nechung. So effectively what happens is that entity seizes the prāṇa system of the body.

In terms of diseases caused by provocations, these manifest as different diseases depending on the type of provocation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Blue Garuda said:
So I'm really wondering if I am interpreting ChNNR correctly in assuming that previous practice commitments are met through Guruyoga as he teaches it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:


Ogyen said:
My reply was no joke...  I was thinking, perhaps if my work were seen for what it is, I should blush, come to my senses and put some content warning on it......


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
Ogyen said:
For example, we could benefit from a female Malcolm-type posting here -

Malcolm wrote:
Step up, the post is vacant.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
xylem said:
but it might be hard.  regardless, the burden is on us, not the lama.

Malcolm wrote:
You would never say that about a doctor or any other kind of professional. So why give gurus a pass?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 11th, 2012 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is the best way for a Dzogchen pracitioner, in my opinion: my teacher and I have the same state. His/er job is to show me that state and s/he can do that because they are a further along the path than I.

(Of course I think that ChNN is an awakened person, but that is a different story).

Adamantine said:
So do you think someone who has not somewhat realized/accomplished Dzogchen view-meditation-and-action is capable of giving pointing out? How far along the path do they need to be? I believe most people see their teachers this way :further along the path-- maybe much further.. not too many are thinking in a categorical way(with exception of DM people maybe) such as "my teacher is an 8th Bhumi Bodhisattva" or a "fully realized Buddha", etc. Although probably many students of HH Dudjom Rinpoche did feel this way, with good reason, just as you feel that way about ChNN... some great masters there is just too much evidence to dispute that they are awakened, then it becomes "reasonable" faith, not blind faith..

Malcolm wrote:
They have to have the experience of at least the second vision, in addition to other necessary qualifications.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Defintion of Mahamudra according to CNR
Content:
Adamantine said:
But correspond means what exactly? I am assuming
there are not practices that work with visual
phenomenon and light in the same way Thogal
practices do...


Malcolm wrote:
It is a literal definition i.e.la bzla ba (which is a Dzogchen term incidentally, it is a very old Tibetan word) means "to transcend, to go beyond", thod rgal means literally, in a sutra sense "skipping bhumis", which how it is used in sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Pero said:
Yes. Two things. One, the teacher was/is totally delusional. IMO not really someone who "understands the material, has done necessary retreats, and has permission to teach". And two, I'm not really sure that viewing one's teacher as a Buddha requires you to drop all reason.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but Pero -- if you decide that someone is a Buddha, then you will see their delusions as skillful means.

And two, when decide, based on a conceptual beleif that someone is a Buddha, then well, it is hard to be reasonable or reasoned with about that person.

This is the best way for a Dzogchen pracitioner, in my opinion: my teacher and I have the same state. His/er job is to show me that state and s/he can do that because they are a further along the path than I.

There, see? No belief that one's teacher is a Buddha required.

M
(Of course I think that ChNN is an awakened person, but that is a different story).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


uan said:
So then we lose the opportunity forever? There are an infinite number of opportunities, some we see, most we don't. That well doesn't run dry.

Malcolm wrote:
That's being optimistic.


uan said:
I agree with the first part of your premise, which is ChNN presents us with a unique opportunity, but if one doesn't take it, it'd only be a big deal in a conventional sense, and probably not even then, and certainly not in a "time is running out" sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Time is running out. It alway is. People live 80-90 years at most, in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hi Pero:

I think it is a total joke for unrealized teachers to permit their students to perceive them as Buddhas. This is encouraging people to believe in fantasies.

You can think it wrong all you like. That is what I think. So we will agree to disagree.

Pero said:
Ok, though it's not like I don't get where you're coming from. But I still wonder what you think of the saying that "if you view the teacher as a realized being..." then?


Malcolm wrote:
You do realize this is exactly the kind of thinking that lead the Diamond Mountain people down their particular garden path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hi Pero:

I think it is a total joke for unrealized teachers to permit their students to perceive them as Buddhas. This is encouraging people to believe in fantasies.


You can think it wrong all you like. That is what I think. So we will agree to disagree.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

uan said:
really?  very linear concept. I guess we only have this one life then the flame goes out forever.


Malcolm wrote:
Flame? No? Opportunity, very likely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.

Clarence said:
What is not useless besides practicing?


Malcolm wrote:
Enjoying your life, having a nice glass of wine, a juicy steak, a good woman (or man) at your side, nice music, flowers, herbs, etc.

All these things are important and necessary (depending on your preferences and health, etc.)

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
xylem said:
"encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things" is the pith essence of renunciation even in the sutra tradition.
i'm starting to think people just want to fight here.
there is really only one dharma.

-xy

Malcolm wrote:
I see the first four (lojongs of vima nyigthig) more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.
Not really xylem-- the motive is really quite different. In Sutrayāna teachings, desire for example is regarded as poison, etc. Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation, as you know. Suggesting that in order to understand Dzogchen you must engage in path of renunciation practices is, my opinion, just not so.

As to your other observation, yes it is true, people really mostly want to have arguments here. Hence my decreasing participation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Pero said:
This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

Malcolm wrote:
The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

M

Pero said:
Sure, but that's not what you said at first.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is. I was saying that teachers who recognize that they are not realized should completely discourage their students from perceiving them as Buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 10th, 2012 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Adamantine said:
However, I do believe there are quite a few more than the one you are promoting. . .

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.

Adamantine said:
But if they didn't have the connection with ChNN, then time would be passing until they found their karmic Guru, even if they stayed with ChNN out of fear that time was passing... or isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
Such a person would be like a man who did not like the shape the gold nugget he has found, and discards it to look for another, more attractive one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kirtu said:
we have to embrace renunciation

Malcolm wrote:
Not in Dzogchen.

heart said:
eh? how about the lodjongs in the Vima Nyinthig? that is real meaning of  renunciation.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I see the first fout more as an encouragement not to waste time or energy on useless things. But I don't see them as a encouraging a path of renunciation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kirtu said:
we have to embrace renunciation

Malcolm wrote:
Not in Dzogchen.

kirtu said:
You are correct that in dzogchen we do not have to embrace renunciation and in fact as a conceptualization it will get in the way of realization but consider the actual lives of people drowning in the poisons.  If they were able to see the arisal of lust or anger as the adornment of wisdom and really rest in that then there would be no problem.  But most people can't do that.  They get carried away at some point.  So for them dzogchen on the cushion and dzogchen view as much as possible but they will need some renunciation as a safety net.  Otherwise some people are on a highwire and will endure some painful encounters with the ground.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
people need to understand their own condition, but they do not need canned religion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kirtu said:
we have to embrace renunciation

Malcolm wrote:
Not in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Pero said:
This was said by Padmasambhava and Norbu Rinpoche mentions it often, it's an important practice. So you guys should be careful in what you say...

Malcolm wrote:
The onus is on the teacher's side to be honest. Conceptually deciding that Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous is a Buddha when all his actions indicate the contrary is just plain stupid and deluded. When Dipshit Rinpoche and Geshe Unctuous encourage their students into such beliefs, it just creates cults.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?
Content:
Ikkyu said:
What real, hard evidence is there that bodhisattvas exist, that enlightenment is possibility or that rebirth can happen either?

Malcolm wrote:
None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

This is why Buddhism is a religion. 

But wisdom is not scientific.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".

Clarence said:
How much use would empowerments from such a person be? Wouldn't it be cause for rebirth in the lower realms for both teacher and student?

Malcolm wrote:
If the teacher in question understands the material, has done necessary retreats, and has permission to teach, then there is no problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Sherlock said:
Can a non-awakened teacher, nevertheless with good intentions and an understanding of the teachings, still give teachings which will benefit the students?


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but such a person should be honest with themselves and their students and even if they give empowerments, should never insist, encourage, or even subtly imply that their students should regard them as "buddhas".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The open ones you can.

Totoro said:
I'm sorry do you mean I can view the next open webcast or some previous webcasts? Because I don't see anything I can view from previous webcasts there at the moment.

If I am a complete newbie, do you think it's advisable for me to take part in the upcoming open webcasts or wait until I take part in the WWT for the first time? Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Take first webcast you can, i.e:


Hawaii Retreat

June 13 -17, 2012

Longsal Ati’i Nadzer

Hawaii Time (HST) is GMT-10

OPEN WEBCAST

13th June 4pm-6pm
Introduction about  Ati Dzogchen Teaching  and its transmission.
Tridlung of Short Gana Puja.

14th June 10am-12pm
Instruction on the important Viewpoint of Ati Dzogchen.
Instruction on the important Point of Gompa for Ati Dzogchen, and
tridlung of Short Thun.
12:30-1:00 pm. Short Gana Puja for the Day of the Dakini.

15th June 10am-12pm.
Instruction on the important Point of Jyodpa for Ati Dzogchen, and
tridlung of Mediun Gana Puja.

16th June 10am-12pm.
Instruction on the important Point of Drasbu for Ati Dzogchen, and
tridlung of Medium Thun.
4-7pm. Medium Gana Puja for end of retreat.

17th June 10am-12pm.
Advice for daily life practices, and
tridlungs of collective practices, etc.
Ati Guru Yoga for finish of retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Adamantine said:
However, I do believe there are quite a few more than the one you are promoting. . .

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but we don't have a lot of time, and time is passing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It was an observation made about people's trip about having awakened teachers, who then fail to follow through on that aspiration and follow other teachers for various reasons.

Adamantine said:
But you aren't intending to imply that these people's other teachers are not awakened? Because if you do not mean that, than the whole statement starts to lose sense. . .

Malcolm wrote:
There are almost no awakened teachers. I am not commenting on any specific teacher, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 9:28 AM
Title: Re: No need for relative bodhicitta
Content:
Adamantine said:
I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this...

Malcolm wrote:
I am glad you had this teaching from Garchen Rinpoche, I hope you apply it well.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Totoro,
have you read "The Crystal and the Way of Light?  If not I would suggest starting there. Then if you are still interested watch a few webcasts. Here is the link:
http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The long term schedule for the webcasts can be found here:
http://www.melong.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Specific times for each one will be posted a few days ahead of time on the webcast site. If you do that and you feel it is for you then you can become a Dzogchen Community member. Then from there, well, the skies the limit. (pun intended hehehe)

Totoro said:
Thanks FD, I don't think i can watch those webcasts if I'm not a member with a p/w yet.


Malcolm wrote:
The open ones you can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: No need for relative bodhicitta
Content:
jnanasutra said:
isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis.  We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis.  How nice!


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, we say it is exactly like a wishfulling gem that spontaneously manifests whatever is wished for -- that is the energy of the basis.


jnanasutra said:
Right, it is the energy of the basis, not dependent on the wishes and aspirations of disciples.  It is an inherent natural expression, not dependent upon others.

Malcolm wrote:
What I am saying is that Dzogchen tantras and text explicitly use the metaphor of the wishfulfilling gem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 8:22 AM
Title: Re: No need for relative bodhicitta
Content:
jnanasutra said:
isn't it amazing that in Dzogchen there is no need to cultivate relative bodhicitta because dynamic compassionate activity is already present in the basis.  We do not say that the buddha's activity is like a wish-fulfilling gem which manifests due to disciples prayers and aspirations, but rather compassion manifest of it own accord as a natural expression of the basis.  How nice!


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, we say it is exactly like a wishfulling gem that spontaneously manifests whatever is wished for -- that is the energy of the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
xylem said:
malcolm...

if not a criticism of those individuals' teachers-- then who/what... or are you being completely misconstrued as criticizing anyone/anything?

-xy


Adamantine said:
Now, ChNN is one of my own teachers.. but I have other teachers who I am closer to who I consider to be at least equally realized, as do many people here.. but Malcolm's above post clearly makes it sound like if someone is studying with someone other than ChNN, then they "like limitations, it makes them feel comfortable"  This clearly contradicts a great amount of what he said in the other post. dismissing other people's teachers, Dzogchen teachers or otherwise in this way, is to me certainly a type of tribalism.


Malcolm wrote:
This is not a criticism of anyone's _teachers_.
It was an observation made about people's trip about having awakened teachers, who then fail to follow through on that aspiration and follow other teachers for various reasons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


Adamantine said:
Now, ChNN is one of my own teachers.. but I have other teachers who I am closer to who I consider to be at least equally realized, as do many people here.. but Malcolm's above post clearly makes it sound like if someone is studying with someone other than ChNN, then they "like limitations, it makes them feel comfortable"  This clearly contradicts a great amount of what he said in the other post. dismissing other people's teachers, Dzogchen teachers or otherwise in this way, is to me certainly a type of tribalism.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a criticism of anyone's _teachers_.
M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 9th, 2012 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Nakedness
Content:
AdmiralJim said:
Is that a quote from trungpa?


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, it is a quote from Malcolm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 11:26 PM
Title: Nakedness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The easiest thing in the world to do is walk naked, and the hardest. We have to take off the clothes we put on in which to admire ourselves. If we don't, then we never see the truth of ourselves. We are naked to others even if we think we are clothed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Buddh-ism without the -ism?
Content:
Jinzang said:
Buddhahood is explained as the completion of the two accumulations, the accumulation of merit and wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
In some systems.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
heart said:
But since Malcolm stopped posting the rest of group A have some problem getting their arguments together and so discussion is dwindling.

/magnus

Sönam said:
This is provocative and wrong ... arguments of all sorts have been provided, and Malcom has not been the only one to post on the subject. Anyone can consult them in previous threads. It is just than there is no positive reasons in looping again and again in the same circle.
Also, having been understood, I have been asked not to come again and again on the same subject ... so I considere it right and I stop posting.
But now that some of us have decided not to continue this looping discussion, what you call group B is coming strongly and say "you see they don't post anymore ... it's because they have nothing to say, ah, ah, ah"

Be happy.
Sönam

heart said:
I am always wrong Sönam, but it wasn't meant as a provocation. I only noticed that very little happened since Malcolm stopped posting (probably my fault) in these threads.  My sincere apologize for the provocative way  I formulated that sentence my only excuse is that I really don't believe there is any homogenous group A or B.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I have not added anything new to these threads because I haven't anything new to say.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Buddh-ism without the -ism?
Content:
alpha said:
Trying to acumulate merit after you've discovered your nature would be delusion.

Jinzang said:
The traditional view is that bodhisattvas on the first bhumi and above continue to accumulate merit through one kalpa while they strive to attain enlightenment. I suppose form one standpoint you are correct: merit, enlightenment, and budhahood are all delusions. But that leaves us with nothing to talk about.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the view enunciated by Haribhadra.


Jinzang said:
It seems that some people on this forum are trying to gift wrap Neo-Advaita and sell it as the highest vehicle of Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:
I have not observed this to be the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.

heart said:
In that case your opinions on this subject are, with all respect, irrelevant.

/magnus
Malcolm, perhaps I wrote that when I was a bit pissed with you. I do actually put a lot of value in your opinions, whatever you want to call yourself, because I admire your bright intellect. I also consider that my path is Dzogchen but do apply whatever I want to and have transmission for among the methods of the nine yanas. You might feel the same, or not, sorry if I sounded harsh. Certainly your opinions are not irrelevant.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Maghnus:

No worries.

My path is Dzogchen. When I do yoga practice, it is Dzogchen. When I garden it is Dzogchen. When I relax, it is Dzogchen. Unless of course I am distracted, then it is mind, even if I am sounding A or doing Rushan, or reciting a mantra, or whatever.

But my path is Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Listen, I'm basing my view on Buddhism, and you clearly aren't.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as this question goes, I think the scholastic buddhist perspective is outdated and wrong.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 7:20 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Son said:
In what way do you think plants have perception, as described canonically in my post?  Blue, yellow, hot, cold, smooth, sharp, rough, etc.  Do you think that the perceptions take place being expressed through this theoretical plant-brain network?  How does a plant designate, or label what is yellow or green, what is smooth or hard, how does it mark an experience and retain recognition of that experience?  I'm not saying I "know" they don't perceive, but, there's no evidence for perception, need for it, and the scientific observations actually oppose perception.  What's more, the canonical resources never insinuate a need for perceptual, karmic, plant sentience.

Malcolm wrote:
Mt. Meru is "canonical".

Your science is outdated.

The qualia of plants, like that of bats, is closed to us.



Son said:
Against Perception:
Trees experience strong wind or weak wind, but what in the tree designates, "this is strong and this is weak?"  It does not make a mark, "these are the designations of wind that I have experienced."  It responds to the wind chemically over and over.  The rosemary bush, when having a leaf plucked, does not designate that sense in any way, "the leaf was plucked," and mark it for later recognition, so that when another leaf is cut, it refers to that same mark of designation.  One leaf is cut, then another leaf is cut, and another and another and so forth, but the plant just reacts according to the experience and doesn't empirically memorize the suggestion of losing leaves.  It doesn't need to, because the leaves are lost in Fall, and leaves regrow in Spring.  It just happens, inherently.  Therefore there is no volition, which means there is no pretense of volition, no karma, and therefore cannot be previous life nor rebirth, and no stream of karmic consciousness, reproductive consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
So you assert and cannot prove.


Son said:
Against Mental Formation:
Lacking mental formation, in which consciousness has its discrete origin, plants do not have consciousness of their own stratum.

Malcolm wrote:
So you assert but cannot prove.

Son said:
Against Obscuring Consciousness and Storehouse Consciousness:
These living beings are thus "primitive sentient," or, "proto-sentient, sub-sentient."  There is substratum consciousness, but it lacks the obscuring consciousness and there is no karmic tainting that displays storehouse consciousnesses.  In other words, they have empty storehouse consciousness, and the only reason they're able to be sentient living beings at all, is because the primordial substratum consciousness provides contact between "sense base" and "sense object."  So they lake perceiving and mental formation, and there's no presence of continual consciousness, only "projected."

Malcolm wrote:
Now you are contradicting yourself and yogacara thoery. The ālavijñāna exists only so as long as the bijas exist. When they are eradicated, the ālavijñāna vanishes.



Son said:
The Buddha did say that consciousness arises in mental formation (thus storehouse consciousness, derived from prim.sub.conscious.),

Malcolm wrote:
Your complicated yogacara arguments are quite irrelevant to the question, AFAIC. You are in essence saying plants are projections. Ok. Yogacara is unconvincing. I don't buy it.

Son said:
but it's perfectly sensible to regard substratum consciousness as functioning without mental formation, without storehouse consciousness. In fact, that's how the Dharmakaya and Sambhogakayas (hence nirmanakayas) function in the Mahayanist views. So you can't exist karmically as a plant, and neither them as other beings--which is why they're not described in the cosmological system.  But by all means, the Buddhas can.  To me, this also provides some illumination to the nature of wildlife devas...

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you accept that plants are awakened.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 7:12 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Yes, well plants have intelligence.  That's not new news--in fact, it is very, very old.  And to the concentrated scientific observer, plant intelligence is obvious.  Why do you think we call plants "living beings?"



However, they don't have " sanna," or perceptions.


Malcolm wrote:
So you claim.

Son said:
...  Are you going to refute that claim, or present arguments against it? Discussion?

In order for a plant to have consciousness "of its own, storehouse consciousness," volitions or mental formation must give rise to that.  They don't intend and obsess over objects, they don't "form volition" in the mind, there is no coloring of the mind derived from sensations.  They do not apprehend the quality of sense-objects, and color their own mind in that way.  They simply react to it naturally, there is no coloring or intention and obsessions over the objects, it's an impersonal experience.  So, personal sentient consciousness can't arise here, dependent on mental formations.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not presented any arguments at all, all you have presented is the same bald unsupported assertions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
So what you are saying is that you can't find a convenient category to put a viewpoint (or more properly group of congruent viewpoints) in, so it vexes you?  Isn't this exactly the point of your so-called camp "A"?

xylem said:
nothing vexes me.  i can't get my mind around what's being discussed so i'm trying to clarify.  from what i can call i'm 50% camp "A", 50% camp "B" which doesn't promise to have a good outcome.

-xy

Malcolm wrote:
That's because this thread was split off from another thread and given this title by a mod. Refer to my op for context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Any chance of you scanning and attaching the abovementioned page?

Malcolm wrote:
As befits their modular structure and the ability to grow from each of their modules,
unlike animals, plants have no use for a centralized brain and/or nervous
system. Instead of centralized brain tissue, a newly emerging field of plant science,
dubbed “plant neurobiology,” is suggesting that plants may actually have
thousands of brain-like entities that are involved in the emergence of intelligent
behavior. These entities are a type of tissue known as meristems. Current theories
suggest that the meristematic tissue, located at the tips of roots and shoots, combined
with the vascular strands capable of complex molecular and electrical signalling,
may well comprise the plant equivalent of the nervous/neuronal
system.54 In a groundbreaking text Communication in Plants, Baluška et al. echo
the pioneering work of Darwin:
Each root apex is proposed to harbour brain-like units of the nervous
system of plants. The number of root apices in the plant body is high,
and all “brain units” are interconnected via vascular strands (plant neurons)
with their polarly-transported auxin (plant neurotransmitter), to
form a serial (parallel) neuronal system of plants.55
Rather than following Darwin’s judgement that this plant nervous system is inferior
to that found in animals, plant neurobiology researchers regard this decentralized
assessment and response system to be the most effective for maximizing
plant fitness.56 Such a system is thought to enable decentralized behavior (i.e.,
growth), which allows plants to thrive in complex and everchanging rhizospheric
environments.
It has been proposed that in the plant the meristematic “brains” may exert
influence on the rest of the plant tissue by the transmission of signalling molecules
such as the hormone auxin. Auxins are manufactured at the root and shoot
apices, and it is thought that their movement is one method for allowing the
transfer of information throughout the individual. It has been proposed that the
end poles (cross walls of cells) are analogous to the synapse in animals.57 At so
called “plant synapses,” vesicular transport of auxin moves this signalling molecule
from cell to cell. Although the exact processes have yet to be uncovered, it
has been proposed that this extracellular transport of auxin “exerts rapid electrical
responses” across the plant synapse and “initiates the electrical responses of
plant cells.”58 Whatever the pathway within the plant, communication can occur
over long-distances, with information on the environmental and developmental
state of the roots being transferred to the shoots—as in the case of stomatal closure
during water stress. As well as auxin and electrical signals, plants produce
and use a variety of neurotransmitter molecules to communicate from cell to
cell. Dopamine, acetylcholine, glutamate, histamine, and glycine are all touted as
potential signalling chemicals between cells.59 Other complex communication
molecules include protein kinases, minerals, lipids, sugars, gases, and nucleic
acids. Trewavas has drawn attention to this complexity and notes that “from the
current rate of progess, it looks as though communication is likely to be as complex
as that within a [animal] brain.”60
In response to some of the assertions of plant neurobiologists, Alpi et al.
have suggested that the existence of plasmodesmata (microscopic channels, which
traverse plant cell walls and enable transport and communication between cells)
contradicts the idea of plant synapses and of auxin as a neurotransmitter, as their
existence facilitates extensive electrical coupling, precluding the need for any
cell-cell transmission of a neurotransmitter-like compound.61 However, this criticism
has been refuted by Brenner et al., who assert that although the exact pathways
are still to be discovered, auxin is known to be transported from cell-cell
and active, communicative plant behavior does take place.62 Along with the
exact mechanisms of electrical cell-cell coupling, they assert that investigating
these transfers represents an exciting field of study for understanding plant signalling
and behavior.
With thousands of meristems, a plant has potentially thousands of “brain
units.” It is proposed by advocates of plant neurobiology that plants integrate
sensory information and make decisions based upon communication between a
multitude of plant tissues such as the root meristems, interior meristems, and the
vascular tissues. Barlow has pointed toward the involvement of the vascular
tissue (xylem and phloem) in conveying APs from zones of special sensitivity to
other regions of the plant—an “informational channel” involved in organismal
organization.63 Trewavas has proposed that the meristematic tissue, which runs
throughout the plant, could be an integrative assessment and computational
tissue, acting with sensory input from local meristems.64 With active debate on
this topic, it is still to be uncovered whether this internal communication systems
are centralized, decentralized, or somewhere in between.65
The structural complexity of these communication networks within plants is
of great interest for an understanding of the intelligent behavior that plants display.
The eminent animal physiologist Denis Noble has recently argued that networkstyle
interactions (like those found in plants), actually organize and direct the
activity of all living beings. In The Music of Life, he disputes the view that a unitary,
external mind or self controls and directs the activity of living organisms.66
Against this Cartesian notion, Noble argues that it is decentralized communicative
networks that heterarchically self-organize and direct living activity.
In Noble’s view of systems biology, “there is no single controller.” no single
Cartesian mind substance, which is the director of living systems.67 Instead,
from a systems viewpoint, mental properties such as intelligence, reasoning, and
choice are thought to emerge from the interactions of physiological networks of
signalling and communication. As Evan Thompson puts it, the “emergent
process is one that results from collective self-organisation.”68 These principles of
heterarchical organization and the emergence of higher level properties are fundamental
principles of systems biology, which are elegantly summed up by
Fritjof Capra: According to the systems view, the essential properties of an organism,
or living system, are properties of the whole, which none of the parts
have. They arise from the interactions and relationships between the
parts. These properties are destroyed when the system is dissected,
either physically or theoretically, into isolated elements.69
Although the exact pathways are still being investigated, we can state that from a
systems perspective, the interconnecting, heterarchical network of plant tissues
(including meristems) enables intelligent plant behavior, rather than the Cartesian
consciousness or free will alluded to by Struik et al.70


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 8th, 2012 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Son said:
However, they don't have " sanna," or perceptions.


Malcolm wrote:
So you claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, you just tell me where Mt. Meru is on this planet.

gregkavarnos said:
Just south of Kyrgistan (Utarakuru, Northern Kuru).

PS "Stewart", "practitioner" and "Greg", it really doesn't matter what they do in Shambhala, does it?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to Ptolemy, the northern nomads on the central Asian steps were called Kurus -- and I can see, how Kyrgistan could have derived ultimately from Kuru.

However, I don't think the Pamirs = Meru is going to make anyone happy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 12:34 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
I disagree with that view and disagree that what I'm saying indicates Aristotelian view.  Maybe if you explained HOW I have Aristotelian view, we could actually decide which is which.  But I doubt you will.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, read Aristotle, then compare what you have eneunciated with Aristotle's POV about plants being insentient automata.

M

Son said:
Plants aren't in-sentient automata.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you admit plants are sentient and not automata?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 12:16 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
I disagree with that view and disagree that what I'm saying indicates Aristotelian view.  Maybe if you explained HOW I have Aristotelian view, we could actually decide which is which.  But I doubt you will.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, read Aristotle, then compare what you have eneunciated with Aristotle's POV about plants being insentient automata.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Uttarakuru, as Mipham surely conceived it, is not this planet.

kirtu said:
So in your view, Mipham is telling Khenpo Kunpel that they will reunite in a celestial or pure realm?  Or perhaps an impure realm just not on the planet?  I thought that traditionally all four continents were on this planet surrounding Mt. Meru?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Well, you just tell me where Mt. Meru is on this planet.

The fact is, Uttarakuru is not something accessible for us, according Kosha cosmology, unless you are a siddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Son said:
The use of me saying that plants aren't "fully" sentient is because I think it is very wrong, and very bad for people to walk around looking at plant life and--beyond understanding that it is LIVING--think and act as though that plantlife feels, perceives, cognizes, or forms volition in any way


Malcolm wrote:
Right, we don't agree on this point. This is a classic Aristotelian view of plantlife, embedded into our cultural thinking about plants.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 7th, 2012 at 9:54 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Typo alert:
But Buddhism no more moves away from a decentralized notion of sentience that does Aristotle.

Should be "But Buddhism no more moves away from a centralized notion of sentience that does Aristotle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Pls introduce me to Dzogchen
Content:
asunthatneversets said:
(I know you've said having access to a teacher/community has been an issue for you due to your location).

Wesley1982 said:
Distance and location issue is not much of a problem if your teacher/guru can communicate to you through the manifestation of dharma practice.


Malcolm wrote:
There are several upcoming webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
If you look back over the past 7 pages you will find that I have been involved in a discussion on the sentience of plants and not an ideological war on the righteousness of Buddhism and the Buddhist view.  This only occured after you threw out the "heresy watch" accusation.  So can we put it to rest now and get on with the point at hand please?  ie "Are plants sentient?"

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing intrinsically non-Buddhist about the idea of plant sentience. However the scholastic tradition made it clear that it was uncomfortable with the idea precisely for the same reason you are: what about the karma of eating and killing plants? Thus, the resulting judgment that plants are insentient is truly just a utilitarian claim meant to ease the consciousness of Buddhist scholastics. Because it is certain that common people in India continued to regard plants as sentient, and do so up to the present.

Since you have a background in biology, Matthew Hall suggests that the problem in adressing plant sentience is a function of entrenched zoocentrism in cognitive modeling which begins with Aristotle. When the question gets brought up, the immediate response is "where is the nervous system, where is the brain, etc." It does not occur to people to ask "If plants are sentient, how might plant neurobiology differ from zoomorphic neurobiology?" In particular, in Hall's book on page 147 he discusses the issues of plant brains.

The conceptual problem, as I see it, is that in Buddhism we have substituted "consciousness" for a soul, or a living being (jiva). But Buddhism no more moves away from a decentralized notion of sentience that does Aristotle. Truthfully, there really is not much difference between the idea of a transmigrating consciousness as the irreducible fact of a sentient being and a soul (despite the chorus of protests this will raise). A transmigrating consciousness transmigrates precisely because of the delusion of selfhood. We take rebirth because we are deluded about I-ness. The only difference between the early Buddhist anatman and the Hindu atman is what is taken as identity. The Hindus understand all persons and phenomena as lacking identity, but suppose that underneath all these illusory appearances, there is a permanent sat-cit-ananda, whose definition is very much like the Mahāyāna definition of tathagatagarbha i.e. permanent, self, blissful, and pure.

The issue, as I see it, is that the substance dualism implicit in the way scholastic Buddhists treat namarūpa make a systems theory of consciousness impossible. This is not an issue in Dzogchen (and to a lesser extent, in Vajrayāna), because consciousness itself is a product of systems interactions i.e. the interactions of the five elements in the body and so on.

What I propose is that the language of plant devas in Buddhist literature is used as a device to ameliorate karmic responsibility for using plants as food. Certainly, in animist traditions where plant spirits are considered, it is not like that. We consult with the spirit of the plant before using it, just as we consult with the spirits of animals we hunt. When we kill a plant, we do not necessarily kill its spirit, just as when we hunt we do not necessarily kill the spirit of the animal we are hunting. This model is still grounded in a naive substance dualism, but it has the benefit of making us recognize that all our actions of eating involve taking life and the life of one living being is not held to be more important than that of another.

Of course in the East Asian Traditions of Buddhism, plant sentience is also accepted in some quarters. The Shingon views of Kukai are very close to my understanding predicated on Dzogchen teachings:
If plants and trees are devoid of Buddhahood, 
Waves would then be without humidity.
As people may or may not know, I am comitted to the principles of deep ecology/biocentrism, and the denial of plant sentience not in keeping with those principles. If we deny plant sentience, as we do merely on the basis of zoomorphic orthodoxy, we deny the intrinsic value of the great preponderance of biomass on our world and reduce it, in bibical terms, as something merely for our use, biological automata, without sense, without feeling, without intelligence. For many centuries, we regarded animals as mere automata too. Now we understand better. In time, I am certain, we will understand this kind of thinking is a mistake when we consider anything that lives.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
...BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

Malcolm wrote:
No, because Bodhgaya is part of an impure realm.

What Mipham was saying in fact that as a Dzogchen practitioner he was going to take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, but not here, on this planet or in this world system.

gregkavarnos said:
Aha!  So what you are saying is not that the three statements are contradictory but that they are complementary.  Yes, I can see that.  So you are saying that the statement:  "...seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south." is figurative and not literal?


Malcolm wrote:
Uttarakuru, as Mipham surely conceived it, is not this planet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 10:44 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Isn't Meru Cosmology symbolic, rather than simply wrong, old superstition, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
It was taken literally until1959 by most Tibetans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 10:33 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
I have supplied this answer a few times.

From the Dzogchen perspective, everything, including consciousness, is a merely a display of the basis' energetic radiance.
I don't find that statement "easier."  I'm not even sure what "easier" means.  But really it's not that critical.  In that frame of speaking, sentience doesn't even come into question, and saying any being is sentient or not sentient is unfounded.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that all life is a function of rtsal. Since everything is a display of rtsal, the notion of sentient vs. non-sentient is not just an ultimate mistake, but a conventional one as well.

You should examine Plants as People by Hall. Much of this conversation is colored by a trenchant post-Aristotelain zoocentrism.

Plants are sentient, we might just have to revise our understanding of what sentience is.

In this respect Buddhist dogmatics is of no use and should be discarded the same way we have discarded Meru Cosmology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
If not, then do you really think that the animals who are sacrificed are treated worse than your dinner was on a factory farm?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in general (but not always) animals used in such ritual sacrifices are then consumed. It is the same actually in Dakshinkali in Katmandhu. From my point of view, blood sacrifices are based on a mistaken concept. But I think anyone from one of this religions where blood sacrifice is common who comes to practice Dzogchen teachings will understand that and eventually cease. However, pleasedo bear in mind that the Lhasa Gvt. hired non-Buddhist priests to sacrifice bulls yearly to satiate the bloodthirsty gods and demons of Tibet prior to 1959.

As for gyalpos, not all gyalpos are "bad". ChNN makes that point frequently.

As I said, any person from any religion, who is interested to study and practice Dzogchen may do so without having to convert to Buddhism.

Anyway, I not going to lend any further dignity to this thread because it was clearly conceived polemically, with religious hostility, and I am not interested persuing this thread any further.

I leave you to your own devices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Adamantine said:
Now how does this work with the claim that any religion can come and study Dzogchen?[/b]

Malcolm wrote:
I never made that claim. Relgions are are not people.

What I said was that anyone, regardless of religion, who is interested may come and study Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Adamantine said:
In another thread, Malcolm states:


Malcolm wrote:
I have already spoken to you about your rhetorical flourishes. BTW, when is last time you molested a child?

See? I am not answering this question because it is just a screed.

Your question is like Fox News.

Adamantine said:
No, Malcolm, that reply is so weak it means you must have no adequate response. Saying my "rhetorical flourishes" are like Fox News" is your own rhetorical flourish worthy of Fox News. What I was asking, as I said, is no more than bringing your statements to a logical extreme.. this is a common form of Buddhist dialogue, you should be familiar with that as much as anyone! So don't be so disingenuous!

Malcolm wrote:
I am not going to answer that barrage of questions in the manner in which it was asked. You may try to rephrase the question(s) if you like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Adamantine said:
Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not a cause of your primordial state. That is a cause of meeting the teachings.

Adamantine said:
right. but we are talking about practicing Dzogchen now, right?


Malcolm wrote:
Practicing Dzogchen means first of all; recognizing your primordial state -- and for that purpse we can use many methods but all of them will be connnected with mind since we have not yet gone beyond mind. When we have that recognition practice consists in integrating that knowledge directly with practices that go beyond mind.

Ati Guru Yoga can be and is for both.


Adamantine said:
Because in other threads you've created a whole lot of rhetoric around the supreme path of pure Dzogchen vs. tantric Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I haven't. But some people, like you, have assumed that I was.

Dzogchen proper has its methods. Mahāyoga and Anuyoga likewise have their methods. The latter are based on transformation, the former is not. Dzogchen practitioners can use all of these methods, and more.

Adamantine said:
I would guess, if you don't need it, you're already enlightened.. or 100% integrated, whatever language you want to use. I don't think we need to hash these things out on behalf of Buddhas, these issues are for us who still have the need to practice something.

Malcolm wrote:
You should practice whatever you feel is important for you. Afterall, you know your own condition best.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
You know that's Malcom's blog, right, rai?
(That Malcom is this Malcom. Just making sure...)

Malcolm wrote:
It's a fair question.

The answer is that I have changed my mind. I don't support that position anymore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Adamantine said:
In another thread, Malcolm states:


Malcolm wrote:
I have already spoken to you about your rhetorical flourishes. BTW, when is last time you molested a child?

See? I am not answering this question because it is just a screed.

Your question is like Fox News.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:41 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Son said:
Actually, the beings dwelling in the Sphere of Infinite Space have consciousness and perception.  The beings dwelling in the Sphere of Infinite consciousness also have consciousness--(how did you miss that in your expert study?).  In the Sphere of Nothingness, there is also perception.  In the Sphere of Neither Percepton nor Non-Perception is where dwell the beings without perception, who are thus cut off from other existences.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, according to the Kosha, beings in the ārupyadhātu do not possess physical sense organs; they possess a mental faculty, a consciousness and single mental object (the concentration which propells their rebirth). They likewise possess only three faculties (indriya)-- the mental faculty, the life faculty, and the faculty of equanimity.

You argument was about self-awareness. Formless realm beings have none.

Son said:
The distinction between fruition of consciousness (karma) and projection of consciousness is thereby defined.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen perspective is much easier.

Son said:
...  Sounds good?

Malcolm wrote:
I have supplied this answer a few times.

From the Dzogchen perspective, everything, including consciousness, is a merely a display of the basis' energetic radiance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen "without Buddhism"
Content:
Adamantine said:
Now, also in terms of Dzogchen being beyond cause and result, beyond the two stages.. I understand the theory but how does this actually
function practically?

Because you need someone to give pointing out instructions.. that is a cause.. don't we need merit to enable us to connect to a qualified teacher who has the capacity to do this? Or are you saying it is just mere chance? randomness?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not a cause of your primordial state. That is a cause of meeting the teachings.


Adamantine said:
Also, in the case of ChNN's instructions, we are given precise instructions, that involve a visualization. You say Guru Yoga of the White Ah is all anyone needs, and they can subscribe to any religion, etc. whatever. But how is making the effort to properly visualize a white Ah in a rainbow tigle not making use of effort, or a cause?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, in the beginning you are working with mind through a simple visualization, but it is not a cause of your primordial state, it is method of connecting with and working with the transmission, a method for directly entering that knowledge.

Adamantine said:
What is so radically different?

Malcolm wrote:
Even Ati Guru Yoga is a method. If you don't need, you don't have to use it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Son said:
Actually, the beings dwelling in the Sphere of Infinite Space have consciousness and perception.  The beings dwelling in the Sphere of Infinite consciousness also have consciousness--(how did you miss that in your expert study?).  In the Sphere of Nothingness, there is also perception.  In the Sphere of Neither Percepton nor Non-Perception is where dwell the beings without perception, who are thus cut off from other existences.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, according to the Kosha, beings in the ārupyadhātu do not possess physical sense organs; they possess a mental faculty, a consciousness and single mental object (the concentration which propells their rebirth). They likewise possess only three faculties (indriya)-- the mental faculty, the life faculty, and the faculty of equanimity.

You argument was about self-awareness. Formless realm beings have none.

Son said:
The distinction between fruition of consciousness (karma) and projection of consciousness is thereby defined.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen perspective is much easier.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not a buddhist.

David N. Snyder said:
Just curious, if you are not Buddhist, which religion / path do you identify with?

If it is just about not wanting to be labeled the R word (religion) which path is closest to your views?


Malcolm wrote:
I am a Dzogchen practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Who are you to say, "the Buddha used devas as a rationalization of plant sentience?"

Malcolm wrote:
Who are you to say he wasn't?

Son said:
Just a guy who has studied the canons.

Malcolm wrote:
So have I.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I think that there is a world of difference between pruning an olive tree and cutting the leg off a living cow.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, you don't prune cows.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M

Will said:
Yes, and I am discussing the last 1500 years or so of influence of the larger standard, popular sutra.  Conversely, your scholarly point "has little bearing" on my point.

Ah, if only the pointless Dzogchenpa would reappear.

Malcolm wrote:
Well you and I both know that the very few people actually read these texts, like Astus (and me, etc.), tend to cherry pick them to make their points. My consideration here is simply to point out to Astus that his citations come from a part of the sutra found only in Chinese sources.

Therefore, they have little bearing on the essential subject of this thread, as I understand it i.e. the presence of a Buddhist eternalism in India. So I suspect we are not having the same conversation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
...support them with Buddhist sources.

Malcolm wrote:
I did that. I also made it clear that I don't agree with the later Buddhist scholastics and why.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
you have to take into account that you are posting in the general Dharma section of a Buddhist forum


Malcolm wrote:
This is the free for all section greg.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
UCalling plants sentient just adds another layer of grief to human behaviour, since now it becomes ethically ambivalent whether it is okay to "kill" plants.  It becomes a source of mental grief and doubt.  In order to maintain ethical conduct we would have to adopt the behaviour of Jains.

Malcolm wrote:
Harming plants and killing animals (requiring only simple confession) are considered the same class of infractions in monastic vows, so this is an exaggeration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Will said:
The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that part of the sutra under question, which "normalizes" the view of the MPNS does not seem to be present in any other recension. It certainly is not in the Tibetan version.  Based in that, we can consider that the original Tathagatagarbha theory was fully eternalist.

Will said:
Sounds like an old Namdrol "point" - my point is different.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but your point has little bearing on the original meaning of the MPSN sutra as a text in its own right, apart from the various sectarian uses and interpretations of it there may be been. I was discussing the fact that originally the MPNS introduced a eternalism into Buddhism.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Astus said:
Malcolm,
In fact, at the final part it has explanations on the differentiation between what is void and what is non-void.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, from the section regarded as apocryphal which has no correspondence in any other early version of the sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oh, from a statement by Padmasambhava in a Dzogchen teaching that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient appears, but should not be beleived, and that when enters into full awakening, the distinction between sentient and non-sentient being false, vanishes.

gregkavarnos said:
It doesn't vanish by calling plants sentient, it just takes plants from within the category of non-sentient and puts them into the category of sentient.  Making the distinction between sentient and non-sentient vanish is also not achieved by saying that everything is sentient.  No more than saying everything is eternal makes the distinction between eternal and impermanent vanish.


Malcolm wrote:
Padmasamabhava is saying that ignorance is maintaining that there is a meaningful distinction between the so called sentient and non-sentient. Plants, rocks, trees, and galaxies all have the same primordial state as humans, and other so called beings in the six lokas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...
the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen...

heart said:
That part is clear enough, but this relation to Mahayoga/Anuyoga that is so valuable and still irrelevant leaves a lot of questions.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Not for me. Mahayoga and Anuyoga are not my path. They can be someone elses path, but they are not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
so from what are you building this idea?  That is something I am interested in and is the reason I'm in this discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, from a statement by Padmasambhva in a Dzogchen teaching that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient appears, but should not be beleived, and that when enters into full awakening, the distinction between sentient and non-sentient being false, vanishes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Will said:
The view of "specialist scholars" is not relevant to the influence on the buddhadharma & generations of practitioners of the "standard" sutra.


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that part of the sutra under question, which "normalizes" the view of the MPNS does not seem to be present in any other recension. It certainly is not in the Tibetan version.  Based in that, we can consider that the original Tathagatagarbha theory was fully eternalist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Instead, we hear him say, "they do not have self-awareness."


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this simply means they are not aware of the themselves; likewise, unconscious gods and so called formless realm gods have no self-awareness.

Son said:
That is not true.  And that is not written.


Malcolm wrote:
It most certainly is true --according the Abhidharmakosha (something I am a little expert in) formless realm beings for example have only one thought and have no awareness outside of that thought, i.e. the thought that propels them into that ayatana. Why? Because they have no physical sense faculties. Hence they have no self-reflexive cognition of any kind. But, like plants, they are a birth, albeit, one without self-knowledge.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Who are you to say, "the Buddha used devas as a rationalization of plant sentience?"

Malcolm wrote:
Who are you to say he wasn't?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Instead, we hear him say, "they do not have self-awareness."


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this simply means they are not aware of the themselves; likewise, unconscious gods and so called formless realm gods have no self-awareness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
I don't know what kind of approach that is, but it doesn't seem Buddhistic.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not a buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 6th, 2012 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to Hodge there are two disctinct sections. It seems you are citing from parts that are not regarded as core portions, but rather later interpolations meant to bring the MPNS in line with a more standard "Buddhist read:


However, Dharmakṣema's translation of the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra extends for a further thirty juan beyond the accepted core text of this sutra. The provenance and authenticity of the Sanskrit text, if such existed, underlying this part of his translation has been debated amongst scholars for decades, with many doubting that it is a text of Indian origin. The chief reasons for this skepticism are these: no traces of a extended Sanskrit text has ever been found, while Sanskrit manuscript fragments of twenty four separate pages distributed right across the core portion of the Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra have been found over the past hundred years in various parts of Asia; no quotations are known from this latter portion in any Indian commentaries or sutra anthologies; and no other translator in China or Tibet ever found Sanskrit copies of this portion.[12]:12-13 The Chinese monk-translator Yijing travelled widely through India and parts South East Asia over a twenty-five year period. In his account of "Eminent Monks who Went West in Search of the Dharma" (大唐西域求法高僧傳 T2066), he mentions that he searched for a copy of the enlarged Mahaparinirvāṇa-sūtra through all that time, but only found manuscripts corresponding to the core portion of this work.[5] For these reasons, textual scholars generally regard the authenticity of the latter portion as dubious: they surmise it may have been a local Central Asian composition at best or else written by Dharmakṣema himself who had both the ability and the motive for doing so.[5]:124-5[14] As a consequence, specialist scholars accept that this latter portion of the Mahāparinirvāṇa-sūtra translated by Dharmakṣema has no value for the history of the tathāgata-garbha concept and related doctrines during their development in India.[12][6]:163-4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana_Mahaparinirvana_Sutra " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Son of Buddha said:
emptiness isnt considered dharmadhatu  in tathagatagarbha,(the nirvana sutra/Lotus sutra) states it was teachings to help one end tainted individual self(false self) not the actual goal.

Astus said:
Consider these passages from the Nirvana Sutra. Page number is according to the common PDF edition.

"The Truth is the Tathagata. The Tathagata is the True; the True is the Void; the Void is the True; the True is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the True."
(p. 159)

"O good man! All that is made is not eternal. The Void is not anything made. So, it is eternal. The Buddha-Nature is not what is made. So, it is eternal. "The Void is the Buddha-Nature; the Buddha-Nature is the Tathagata; the Tathagata is not what has been made. What has not been made is Eternal."
(p. 162)

"How does the Bodhisattva meditate on the Void of nature ["prakrti-shunyata" - Emptiness of primordial matter]? This Bodhisattva-mahasattva sees that the original nature of all elements is all void. These are the five skandhas, the 18 realms, the 12 spheres, the Eternal, the non-Eternal, suffering, Bliss, the Pure, the impure, Self, and non-Self. In all such things, he sees no nature of their own. This is how the Bodhisattva-mahasattva meditates on the Void of nature."
(p. 194)

"When the Bodhisattva-mahasattva practises Great Nirvana, he knows and sees the universe and he realises that the real state is all-void and that there is nothing that one possesses, and that there is nothing that has any mode of harmonisation or perception. And what he gains is such a phase [state of realisation] as the unleakable [i.e. undefiled], non-doing, the phantomic, the burning flame of the hot season, and the all-empty phase of a gandharvan castle."
(p. 257)

"He practises "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Reality] and the Ultimate Void. Why? Because all Bodhisattvas always thoroughly practise the natures and characteristics of the Void. By practising the Void, he can now know what he did not know in the past. What does he know? He knows that there is no self and what one possesses. All beings have the Buddha-Nature. He knows that by reason of the Buddha-Nature, even the icchantika, when he abandons the mind that he possesses, can indeed attain unsurpassed Enlightenment. Such is not what sravakas and pratyekabuddhas can know."
(p. 282)

"Now, hearing Dharma relates to the 11 shunyatas. Due to these voids, we see no form in anything. Now, hearing Dharma begins with the first aspiration and proceeds up to the ultimate unsurpassed Bodhi Mind. By gaining the first aspiration, one gains Great Nirvana. Through hearing, one does not gain Great Nirvana; by practising, one attains Great Nirvana."
(p. 293)

"What is the True? One knows well the phases of Nirvana, the Buddha-Nature, the Tathagata, Dharma, the priest, the Real State, and the Void. This is what is True."
(p. 296)

"The Buddha-Nature is none other than the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" [Ultimate Truth]. The All-Void of "Paramartha-satya" is Wisdom. We say "All-Void"."
(p. 318)

"The Middle Path is the Buddha-Nature. For this reason, the Buddha-Nature is Eternal and there is no change. As ignorance overspreads [them], all beings are unable to see. The sravaka and pratyekabuddha see the All-Void of all things. But they do not see the non-Void. Or they see the non-Self of all things, but they do not see the Self. Because of this, they are unable to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya". Since they fail to gain the All-Void of "Paramartha-satya", they fail to enact the Middle Path. Since there is no Middle Path, there is no seeing of the Buddha- Nature."
(p. 319)

"The samadhi resultant from right thinking is right meditation. One abiding in right meditation sees all things as Void. This is right Wisdom. One perfect in right Wisdom segregates his self from all the bonds of defilement. This is Emancipation. "The person who has gained Emancipation praises it to all beings and says that this Emancipation is Eternal and Unchanging. This is the correct praising of Emancipation. This is unsurpassed Mahaparinirvana."
(p. 327)

"The Buddha-Nature of beings is not-one and not-two. The equality spoken of regarding all Buddhas is like the Void. All beings possess it. Anybody who indeed practises the Noble Eightfold Path gains - one should know - a bright view."
(p. 352)

"The Eternal of the Tathagata is the Self. The Dharmakaya "[Dharma-Body]" of the Tathagata is unboundedness, unobstructedness, birthlessness, undyingness, and the eight unmolestednesses. This is the Self. The beings, truth to tell, do not have such a Self and what the Self possesses. Only because of the fact that a person absolutely attains the absoute Void of "Paramartha-satya" do we say the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 389)

"The Buddha-Nature of the being is like the Void. The Void is not past, not future, and not present. it is not in, nor out; it is not within the boundaries of colour, sound, taste, and touch. It is the same with the Buddha-Nature."
(p. 414)

"If there is nothing, this is the Void. The same is the case with the Buddha-Nature, too. O good man! As the Void is empty, it does not fall into the category of the Three Times. As the Buddha-Nature is Eternal, it is not within the category of the Three Times."
(p. 440)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Queen's Diamond Jubilee
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
kilt_fail.jpg (53.1 KiB) Viewed 1761 times
kilt_fail.jpg (53.1 KiB) Viewed 1761 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
...and I sincerely think that they are projections of sentience.

Malcolm wrote:
The minute you admit that plants are admitted onto scale of sentience, all of your other arguments are just rationals.

Son said:
Well if you pretend that I mean something other than what I said, yes.

Malcolm wrote:
What you said was...

Son said:
Plants should be considered borderline sentient


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Instead, I prefer to think that matter is intrinsically imbued with intelligence, and that all forms of matter may naturally manifest their intrisic intelligence given proper causes and conditions.

gregkavarnos said:
To say that all sentients have form is one thing, to say all forms are sentient is another.  Is an asphalt tarmac sentient?  Is my desk sentient?  The desk lamp?  What about the printer?  That's a border line case because every time I try to print it seems to have a mind of its own and do whatever it feels like...

Well, it doesn't really work as a theory does it?


Malcolm wrote:
...given proper causes and conditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
This seems to be comfortable canonically.

Malcolm wrote:
In scholastic Buddhism this debate came about because Buddha's teachings were more or less silent on the issue, and there are a couple of passages where the Buddha clearly included plant life as a kind of birth.

This raised a question, and because Jains and Hindus already supported the notion of plant sentience, arch-contrarians that they are, Buddhist scholastics rejected this point of view.

You can for example, rationalize that there are devas that inhabit plants as houses (standard Indo-Tibetan view), but as far as I am concerned this is merely a way of articulating the sentience of plants. It may be the case that plants acheive sentience only in communities, just like our body is not wholly sentient -- to use your example of a branch which can be propagated, also cells from our body may be propagated etc., and we certainly would not necessarily call either sentient in a conventional way.

Likewise, we do not have sentience apart from our embodiment, the community of organisms that make up our body. I think the Buddhist basic view -- the sutrayāna view -- is that we are embodied because we are sentient. Underlying the whole Buddhist rejection of plant sentience is a hard substance dualism.

Dzogchen rejects this substance dualism.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of higher and lower.

But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.

heart said:
The obvious question is then why ChNNR would teach on the two stages if it is irrelevant in Dzogchen? Not a long time ago you said that it is possible to integrate any religion or belief with the practice of Dzogchen, if I understood you correctly. The two stages and the two truths should then be easy to integrate with Dzogchen, right?
Then you told me yourself that the twos stages are mentioned as practices in the 17 Tantras. The Kunjed Gyalpo is full of references to the two stages even if it is as a way to define the difference between Mahayoga/Anuyoga and Dzogchen I don't think that the word "irrelevant" is at all appropriate.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Jesus, do we really have to go round and round on this one again? You know what I mean when I say "The two stages are irrelevant to Dzogchen".

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.

heart said:
A wise man said recently;

Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, the idea of a "pure Dzogchen" is a mistake. He also says we need to understand our practice in terms of the unity of the three inner tantras. Dzogchen is how we practice those three inner tantras.

N

heart said:
But here you are again back to "pure dzogchen".

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
By "pure Dzogchen"I simply mean from the three series of Dzogchen proper, rather than the result vehicle approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
I just ordered the Guru Yoga e-book (I think Dechen Norbu mentioned in one of his posts some time ago). I just started reading and came across the oral, symbolic, direct transmissions.
During webcasts, does Rinpoche always give all three? I know he often gives oral and symbolic transmission but what about direct transmission?

Many thanks,

C

Malcolm wrote:
The answer is yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


mujushinkyo said:
Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't know Zen at all. I am a Dzogchen practitioner. I know what my state is. For the most part I am connected with that state. It is based on personal experience.

mujushinkyo said:
Yes! I don't know Zen at all either. Don't think I'm asking about Zen or Dzogchen. I was just asking about the direct experience, because it intrigues me.

Not a challenge or a demand -- or anything of the sort

As you know, I expect. Because if we're talking about the same thing, we needn't have our discussion "here" at all -- we can meet anytime in Infinity.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.

This is the best thing.

Otherwise, the best thing I can say is: that direct experience is based on direct introduction by a qualified teacher (These days most Dzogchen teachers will be very interested in having you sign on as a Buddhist, but not ChNN). Having received direct introduction, then there are many methods to come to be free of doubt about one's primordial state. Once one is free of doubt, one ceases to worry about buddhahood that is a result of practice and effort, since it does not exist.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


mujushinkyo said:
Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't know Zen at all. I am a Dzogchen practitioner. I know what my state is. For the most part I am connected with that state. It is based on personal experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:19 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.

mujushinkyo said:
That's what it is.

But satori is what happens if "you" are ever unlucky enough to stray in an illusory way from your primordial state and then suddenly rejoin it with an anti- illusory big bang.


Malcolm wrote:
That used to happen. Now it does not happen anymore because I am not separate from that knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


mujushinkyo said:
What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.


Malcolm wrote:
Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.

mujushinkyo said:
That's true!

Listen, the only reason I invest Kensho with any significance is that it does liberate people to be happier. I've seen it happen in others. I'm  happy.

It's hard to get across to anyone just what this is, because people want to know instead what it "means." It doesn't mean anything. It's just waking up to the glory of This. If it were a religious issue -- a personal possession, an attainment of "holiness" -- we could argue about who has it and who doesn't.

This is actually basic to the cult stalking I experienced. The cultists were enraged that I said I'd had kensho. Enraged.

There's no way to convince anybody of what they refuse to accept, but if there's someone who claims they know the difference between a person who's had satori and who hasn't, let's hear it!

Malcolm wrote:
I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:00 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


mujushinkyo said:
What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.


Malcolm wrote:
Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
mujushinkyo said:
I hate to break it to you, because you seem attached to your idea of kensho,

kirtu said:
nope, not an idea of kensho.
I had wu/satori.
From your speech and topics of concern, you are deeply mistaken.  And are behaving in a mistaken way.

Kirt

mujushinkyo said:
Kirt, Let me ask. Have you had Kensho?

Or Satori?

"Nope."

It's all just a religious, idealistic concept to you, isn't it?

Are you not behaving in mistaken way, by telling any other person they are behaving in a mistaken way?

Look into it clearly. You're missing something here, and it could be important for you to find out what it is.

Andrew

Malcolm wrote:
Here, I should say, this is unproductive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 11:41 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
mujushinkyo said:
My response: Some of you little Buddhist scamps here are worse than the worst Catholics. You're crazed --  totally sunk in an anti-life religious ascetic delusion.

Malcolm wrote:
Well that is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes -- Buddhism is a pretty alienating religion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
...and I sincerely think that they are projections of sentience.

Malcolm wrote:
The minute you admit that plants are admitted onto scale of sentience, all of your other arguments are just rationals.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
Nemo said:
Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?

Malcolm wrote:
Hence the Tibetan Instutional Response (TIR).  Lojong teachings are often used as Mind Control. Milarepa had good reason to call Dromton a demon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Thanks Malcolm...sometimes its difficult for some of us newbies to strike a balance between being precise/anal and being hippy-dippy/anything goes. So then my new avatar that I worked on with my sons help for many hours should be fine then, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Looks good to me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Chiefly, it is crucial to understand that plants are not self-aware, and therefore are not sentient in the way that humans, animals, or devas are considered sentient.

Malcolm wrote:
But, to raise yet another objection, shamanic traditions clearly are at odds with this view.


Son said:
I am very well integrated into shamanism and study with shamans.
In that experience, I can say that no it is not.  As a shamanist I can say that it's not at odds with this view.  In fact, according to myself and other shamanists I've interacted with, this completely validates these aspects of shamanism from a Buddhist mentality.  Maybe if you explained what's on your mind?

Malcolm wrote:
There are a lot of different kinds of shamanism -- but specifically, plants have their own energetic resonance. Since we moderns have a deeply ingrained substance dualism, when we see terms like "plant spirits" we assume this means somehow just like a mind appropriates a body, spirits appropriate a given set of plants -- but in my view as a Dzogchen practitioner, it is not like that. So how is it? Humans are living beings, and our consciousness is an expression of how energy is instantiated in our forms. Plants are living beings, and the way energy is instantiated in their forms is not the same as ours, so too with animals, devas, etc. But this energy, call it rtsal, permeates and gives rise to all displays of life in a samsaric context, and buddhas in a nirvanic context. You can set them out them on a band if you like, for example, as some hindus do, tamasic to sattvic with plant inhabiting the tamasic end of the consciousness scale, and liberated beings at the ultimate sattvic end.

To think like a tree can take centuries -- Garab Dorje says "The color of rtsal is green". Without rtsal there is no growth, no flourishing of anything. Rtsal is the root of consciousness. Tree thoughts are not like human thoughts. For most of us, we are closed off. We cannot perceive how a tree thinks, or a mountain, a planet, a solar system, galaxy or universe.

All universes are supposed to be included inside of the body of the mahāsambhogakāya Vairocana Himasagara. Our world system is supposed to be in a billion world system that is part of another system which is in the palm of his hand. Are we truly sentient in that respect? Or are we just neurons, synapses in a massive cosmos spanning Buddha?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Chiefly, it is crucial to understand that plants are not self-aware, and therefore are not sentient in the way that humans, animals, or devas are considered sentient.

Malcolm wrote:
But, to raise yet another objection, shamanic traditions clearly are at odds with this view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
so then this is not correct for visualization for Longsal Longde?


Malcolm wrote:
It is fine. The principle is more important than the details.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 7:43 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
So, what is your answer to that?  Are you on my page or not?

Malcolm wrote:
My answer to that if it is alive, it is sentient. So we are not on the same page, since you clearly think plants are not alive, and I think they are.


:=)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
If the plant is the sentient beings form-body, than that means the deva can't move or touch anything that doesn't touch the plant...

Malcolm wrote:
I am not advocating substance dualism at all. That is a Buddhist trip. I am saying that plant sentience is articulated through the language of plant "spirits" in the jatakas. And that there is a very clear relationship between the body of the plant and the life of the plant "spirit" in question. Harm one, harm the other.

Likewise, when your body is harmed, also your mind experiences harm.

My point of view is not informed by the early Buddhist tradition -- it is merely that in this period there was no hard and fast doctrinal position about it and even the Abhidharmika Samghabhadra recognizes that in the earliest sources there is no firm opinion to back up the Buddhist rejection of non-Buddhist assertions about plant sentience.

So therefore, when Buddhists such as yourself claim "Plants are not sentient" -- it is actually far more ambiguous than is comfortable for you.

As for my position, everything is made of five elements, and that is permeated with wisdom. Therefore, plant sentience, etc., is perfectly reasonable from my perspective and I don't agree with the scholastic arguments against it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
Okay, does that conflict with something you read?

Malcom,

There are many practices and levels of depth the Buddha taught.
However, they do not conflict with each other. We can't compare the teachings.

There are contradiction when we compare teachings and lineages because of depth.
That is why the buddha said to contemplate a teaching and discard teachings one does not understand.
The higher teachings are not meant to be understood intellectually, they must be experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of higher and lower.

But the fact remains is that the two truths and the two stages are not the system of Dzogchen and are irrelevant in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
it is not the plant that is sentient but the deva.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just like saying that your body is not sentient but your mind is. Of course, those who subscribe to Buddhist substance dualism will be happy with this pov.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 6:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.

Malcolm wrote:
Which have nothing to do with Dzogchen.


In the bone yard said:
Oh really?


Malcolm wrote:
Really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Tibetan dharma organizations need to learn a thing or two about accountability if they expect to succeed here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Really?

Malcolm wrote:
Really:

“Since thou art bent to tear my body from me, cut me small,
And cut me piecemeal limb from limb, O King, or not at all.
 
“Cut first the top, the middle next, then last the root of me:
And if thou cut me so, O King, death will not painful be.”

...
 
“The reason (and a  reason ’tis full noble) why piecemeal
I would be cut, O mighty king! Come listen while I tell.
 
“My kith and kin all prospering round me well-sheltered grow:
These I should crush by one huge fall,–and great would be their woe.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
Yes.  It is.  Plants do not experience.  They don't have the storehouse consciousness, they don't have the element of consciousness but are only form.  Indeed, the Hindus called them "one-facultied life."  In Buddhism, life cannot have one faculty, that of body.

Malcolm wrote:
They are talking about sparśendriya, the faculty of touch.

Also in this Jataka, a tree deva clearly identifies his tree as his body, which when cut down, will end his life:

http://jathakakatha.org/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=332:453-bhaddasala-jataka-&catid=51:451-500&Itemid=99 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not saying that. I am saying do UHC/SP right or don't do it.Don't do a half-assed job that in end only serves to enrich HMO's and create needless beauracracy. You have no idea what a burden Romney/Obamacare is on many lower income people in Mass.

kirtu said:
I understand.  And when can we expect your candidacy for the MA legislature in order to amend the state heathcare system in order to remove the burden on lower income people?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I am pretty sure the USCUS will force a doover of the whole mess.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


heart said:
Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as it should be IN THE THUN SYSTEM.

LONGSAL is different.

M

Finney said:
Malcolm,
Here you seem to be agreeing that the proper Thun order is: space, air, fire, earth, water.

But earlier you wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

Finney said:
so, I'm a little confused. Can you help clarify it for me?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh I see... I was not paying careful attention. Also Tbhun cover is out of order. There is no system where water is last. That is just for aesthetics. It has been like that for 30 years. Since Crystal. My bad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But I'll be damned if I am going to be forced to pay some insurance company for health insurance I damn well don't need and won't use.

kirtu said:
Just another version of: why should I help pay for other people's health care?  IOW you are selfish and only looking out for yourself given this condition.  Or as President Obama said: some people believe that "you are on your own" and that's the way things should be.

Anyway everyone is 100% guaranteed to use health care.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
I am not saying that. I am saying do UHC/SP right or don't do it.Don't do a half-assed job that in end only serves to enrich HMO's and create needless beauracracy. You have no idea what a burden Romney/Obamacare is on many lower income people in Mass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dronma said:
...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.

Mr. G said:
If we're doing an Anuyoga practice, we would use the one in the thun?

Malcolm wrote:
It depends: if you are doing an Anuyoga practice like Jnanadakini you use the Longsal system. If you are doing something not connected with Longsal, you use Thun system. The system used in the Thun book comes from lower tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


heart said:
Thanks, but the tigle in dronmas post is space, air, fire, earth, water is that correct or not?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as it should be IN THE THUN SYSTEM.

LONGSAL is different.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
They are still subject to consciousness, they're just in a suspended state.

Malcolm wrote:
Specious-- one could make the same argument for plants.

Just admit it -- the Buddha includes plants as a kind of jati, a kind of birth, right along side all the other births.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


Sönam said:
As a french guy, I also do not understand that point of view ... as for payement, in France, as the rights are established depending on your salary the richs pay more, and the poor do not pay at all ...

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
"Most general physicians are in private practice but draw their income from the public insurance funds. These funds, unlike their German counterparts, have never gained self-management responsibility. Instead, the government has taken responsibility for the financial and operational management of health insurance (by setting premium levels related to income and determining the prices of goods and services refunded)"

I have no problem with this --but Obamacare is not this.

Obamacare was set up by HMOs for HMOs


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


kirtu said:
This is a kind of thinking that is just incomprehensible to me.  And many people born and raised in the US repeat this.

Malcolm wrote:
Either give health care to everyone (UHC/SP), or don't give it to anyone. But I'll be damned if I am going to be forced to pay some insurance company for health insurance I damn well don't need and won't use. Moreover, I am completely opposed to the present HMO system.

I really hope they do toss out Obama care on its ear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dronma said:
...the order of the colors of the 5 elements depends on the practice.
[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are correct: there are two systems.

The Thun system: space, air, water, fire, earth. (e yam bam ram lam)

The Longsal system (which is the classical order of Indian cosmology): space, air, fire, water, earth (e yam ram bam lam).

Also these very same seed syllables in the latter system are also found in precisely the same order in Hindu element purification practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Isn't a lack of self awareness a description of non-sentience?  Of course plants are "born" but, like I said before, let us not confound living with sentience.

Malcolm wrote:
By your definition unconscious gods would then be non-sentient, as would people in comas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:


Anders said:
Multiply by several orders of magnitude for Big Stuff like culture, religion, etc. I suppose. Someone on Youtube actually took offence at the 'Sickest Buddhist Ever' video.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, or Buddha prints on bakinis. The fact is that a Buddha image on some cute girl's (or boy's) ass might waken a trace in someone and cause them to investigate the teachings.

Tathāgata Booty Beauty Buddha.

Click at your own risk:
https://hediedformygrins.blogspot.com/2011/12/buddha-bikini.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Do Theravadins have anything similar to Dzogchen?
Content:
Anders said:
I think that may be a reflection of your inclination on topics moreso than theirs.

Jnana said:
Not at all. It's a pluralistic world Anders. I know practicing Theravāda monastics who do Green Tārā Sādhana every evening, etc., etc..


Malcolm wrote:
Thank goodness it is a pluralistic world -- let's keep it that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Do Theravadins have anything similar to Dzogchen?
Content:
Anders said:
You're skipping a number of steps though. Vajrayana doesn't accept this for the same reasons Mahayana doesn't. Simply being awakened doesn't constitute a shortcut to Buddhahood. Buddhahood is predicated on taking much longer than arhatship because of the two accumulations even though their practise of wisdom is basically the same.


Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen model of abhisamaya is so different from Nikāya, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna abhisamaya it is basically completely meaningless to discuss them on the same basis. Anyone at all can practice Dzogchen irrespective of their religious tradition.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
Anders said:
Ergo, an appreciation of culture and the diversity of culture, in the right perspective of it being a play of celebration and expression of life, can be a delightful thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Buddhists are too depressing and gloomy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Spirituality said:
That was way more than necessary, but clear, at least in this translation. You're right:  in this translation this sutra does teach Buddha is eternal and is, as such, hard to reconcile with traditional Buddhism.

I'd love to hear what someone with access to the original language who knows something of the Buddhist history of ideas has to say about this text.

Anders said:
IIRC, when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stephen_Hodge posted on E-sangha, his position was that the Nirvana sutra was rather unapologetic about its eternalism.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and he is perhaps THE expert on this text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


kirtu said:
Unfortunately overturing Obamas's healthcare proposal or Romney's implementation of healthcare is not guaranteed to move the US to a single payer system.  Culturally US people really do believe that the principle that "you are on your own" is correct.  Therefore most Republicans and many Democrats (almost all of whom are merely liberal Republicans anyway) agree with this point of view.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
AFAIC am concerned, that is better than mandated insurance coverage which I regard as a violation of my rights to choose and as something than makes Govt, interference in our lives all the more pervasive since it is tied to our income taxes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:


Anders said:
At a more fundamental level though, it does seem to imply that spirits can embody a vessel in similar fashion to the way we 'embody' a car and move around in it, the step out when we're done with it. I can imagine a similar principle could be applied to spirits and plants.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes and minds and bodies, and so the substance dualism of Abhidharma remins in force.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Which is why I originally asked why the Buddha did not include plants as a seventh realm of samsaric existence if they were considered sentient by him...


Malcolm wrote:
Buddha includes "grass and trees" among "birth" i.e. jati.
Know first the grass and trees:
Though they lack self-awareness, 
Their birth is their distinctive mark;
For many are the kinds of birth.
-- Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 800

Here, Buddha clearly includes plants among the "born". He continues next with moths up to ants, and so on. But if you read this without bias, he says later, on pg. 806:
Who knows his manifold past lives, 
And sees the heavens and states of woe, 
Who has reached the destruction of birth, 
He is the one I call a bhramin.
Since plants are included among birth here, I see no reason not to understand that they are possible rebirths though lacking self-knowing (na cāpi paṭijānare), also so called formless realm beings lack self-knowing.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In response to Xabir, the idea that plants have "spirits" inhabiting them is as silly as the idea we are a mind inhabiting a body.

xabir said:
What happens then when a person gets possesed by evil spirits so that the body gets taken control by another mindstream, or a taoist medium gets possesed by spirit-deities, or a tibetan oracle gets possesed by protectors etc? Can't the same happen for plants?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but invasion implies force, and in the case of all three examples, you have the invasion of a foreign entity into another entity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2012 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
The Seeker said:
Andres, I'm not saying that they don't "move" to follow the sun.
But they do it in a solid location being rooted i. That location.

Malcom, yes Myceliun Running is a great book full of information. I also consider the fungi world entirely different from any other realm. Having studied and being certified in professional mushroom cultivation by Stamets, I'd have to say the fungi would have more characteristic tendencies of sentience than plants. Also in response to pulling the weeds being displacing the insects home. One is not makeing an area bare, there are other plants and root systems for them to reside in. Which most likely, they "visit" anyway.

Kindest wishs, Dave


Malcolm wrote:
well, tell that to the bug the text time, you pull it up with some roots...The other day i was making some rosewater, and some junebugs crawled out of the rose heads, very indignant, i might add.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was reflecting this morning sentience is not a function of individual members anyway. It is a function of the interaction of communities, just as our body is a member of a sentient community. It is the interactions of the five elements we can our body through all of its sense organs and so forth than gives rise to our consciousness.

This is why such notions as autopoesis (lhun grub) are critical for going beyond archaic and alienating notions inherent in the mind/matter dichtomy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
dharmagoat said:
Trees communicating and benefiting one another is a cute idea, for sure. Unfortunately it all sounds like speculation, not science. What I find interesting is the idea that trees could communicate through their roots with the help of fungi, but no evidence is presented that they actually do.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if this video turned out to be a hoax. But well worth watching.

Malcolm wrote:
Read Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World by Paul Stamets


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


kirtu said:
But Malcolm - this is the kind of indirectness and abandonment of logical thought that is a real problem in discussions.  My point on health care is that the US does not have a health care system (not a universal health care system).  So while President Obama's system is also not a universal health care system, Single Payer is certainly not a legitimate option, other than for powerful or greedy people who simply want to exploit others.  It's this kind of thinking that we should reduce and not encourage.  The US has not always taken an extreme "you are on your own" approach but it seems that it has been moving towards that extreme view since at least the 1st Great Depression (because homeless people and poor people were significnatly maltreated in that period).

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Single Payer = Universal Health Care in my lexicon i.e. healthcare as a basic human right, a base level of which should be gauranteed by the government, just as the government guarantees education as a basic human right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
This is a delusion that the Buddha himself tried to put an end to.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha did not say anything about it at all. All arguments againt plant sentience are from later, extra canonical, scholastic sources. There is in fact good evidence to suppose that like other contemporary Indians, early Buddhists beleived in the sentience of plants. Certainly Jains did and continue to do so.

Lotus_Bitch said:
What do you think of the Surangama Sutra? Regardless of when and who composed this work, it is widely regarded as a meditation manual first. Hence it's importance in Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
The arguments about the sentience of plants in Chinese Mahāyāna is well known with many Chinese masters coming down on the side of plant sentience.

Lotus_Bitch said:
The view you are propounding is common among those of eternalistic views, which is why you'll hear of this in tribal communities as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Am I? That is news to me. Are you quite sure all tribal people are eternalists? How did you come to universal knowledge of the beleifs of all tribal peoples?

In response to Xabir, the idea that plants have "spirits" inhabiting them is as silly as the idea we are a mind inhabiting a body. This is merely a perpetuation of the mind/matter dichtomy, the intractable substance dualism that has infected scholastic Buddhist discourse, with which modern Buddhists authors such as Alan Wallace jump through hoops to vainly defend.

Instead, I prefer to think that matter is intrinsically imbued with intelligence, and that all forms of matter may naturally manifest their intrisic intelligence given proper causes and conditions. In other words, I think the concepts "sentient" vs. "non-sentient" is just an abstraction. The intelligence of matter is a function of self-organization or autopoesis. It used to be the case that we beleived animals to be mere automata. Now we have revised that view, and we consider that while animals demonstrate will, communication, etc., we feel that plants are mere automata -- but this view is also slowly changing.

My present feeling is that we inhabit a living world, and it too has a consciousness that envelops us. In order to make it comprehensible we render it in archtypes like an Earth Goddess, Pritvi, etc. But the world is impermanent, and thus it too is subject to birth, aging, illness and death.

Why would the intelligence of a mountain, a planet, a solar system, a galaxy, a universe resemble that of a human being?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
The Seeker said:
I can not see how by physically pulling a weed/plant you are harming a worm or bug. Unless of course you don't see it and crush it when grabbing the weed.

Kindest wishes, Dave

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you can destroy something's home. If someone plucked your house up buy the roots I am sure you would feel harmed.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Son said:
This is a delusion that the Buddha himself tried to put an end to.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha did not say anything about it at all. All arguments againt plant sentience are from later, extra canonical, scholastic sources. There is in fact good evidence to suppose that like other contemporary Indians, early Buddhists beleived in the sentience of plants. Certainly Jains did and continue to do so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: The Value of Culture
Content:
dharmagoat said:
I see little value in preserving elements of a culture that have become redundant, especially if these elements are at odds with other cultures.


Malcolm wrote:
Right,we should just have one color of corn. Who needs diverse corn to make high fructose corn syrup? After all who needs Glass Gem Corn:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 3:15 AM
Title: Child Abuse Rampant in Sinhalese Monasteries
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15507304 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
...BUT Sakyong Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, Jampal Trinley Dradul (born Osel Rangdrol Mukpo in 1962, son of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche), since he was born in Bodhgaya India, can be recognised as the official second incarnation of Ju Mipham.

Malcolm wrote:
No, because Bodhgaya is part of an impure realm.

What Mipham was saying in fact that as a Dzogchen practitioner he was going to take rebirth in the pure nirmanakāya buddhafields, but not here, on this planet or in this world system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to work with plants more.

The Seeker said:
Now I remember why I don't ask questions here.

I grow many plants, year round in NE North America. Under lights and in hydroponic systems. Guess I should work with them more.................

Kindsst wishes, Dave


Malcolm wrote:
Then I am suprised that you don't relate to plants in terms of their ability to sense their environment and respond to it -- that after all is all a feeling is. Things that are painful we avoid; things that are pleasurable we seek out. Plants behave in the same way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 3:04 AM
Title: The Value of Culture
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Kirt asks:
I'm still asking what if anything beyond science, mathematics and engineering needs to be preserved in western culture. Is there a there there? Sally and username are discussing Marx from the starting point of Marx's criticism of capitalism.

Cultures arose historically mostly from little groups with mutual language comprehensibility or religious cohesion interacting. This is all embeded in a samsaric context and Tibetan culture is no different at lest on the secular level.

Why do we need to preserve cultures? The majority of cultures that have ever existed on the planet are gone as distinct, labelable entities. Cultures are identities that people attach to. Do cultures serve any real purpose for humans?
We need to preserve humans cultures in the same way we need to preserve biodiversity in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
This is where the absolute and relative truths are found.

Malcolm wrote:
Which have nothing to do with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2012 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Andrew was arrested in connection with Bill Cassidy and then released when it was ascertained he and Cassidy were not the same person nor acting in concert.

mujushinkyo said:
Please note that I was not arrested. Although I know the cultists are saying loudly that I was.

My house was raided in a pre-dawn tactical operation to seize and search my computers.

Malcolm wrote:
Apologies -- your computers were arrested and held for a year without being charged.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen, Buddhism and culture
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just an observation, but this thread seems to have seriously veered off course, but since it was a thread created out of another thread, may be this is normal...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


kirtu said:
I am a US Army veteran.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have healthcare.

kirtu said:
No - most veterans who served in the late/final Cold War period do not have veteran's benefits (more correctly they don't have war era veteran's benefits) 1975/77 - 1991/2.  I served in the middle of that period.  I don't have healthcare benefits.  I can't even claim the 5 pt federal preference on federal job applications (or couldn't while I was working in the federal government as a civilian - some generals and admirals have spoken out about this issue over the past 18 yrs).

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
I see, well it seems likely that the Supreme Court will toss out Obama/Romney care, and then they will have a chance to do it right with Single Payer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
The Seeker said:
Hey Malcom, could you please explain this.
other than possibly predatory plants, Venus fly trap for example, I haven't observred anything I'd consider feeling.

Kindest Wishes, Dave


Malcolm wrote:
You need to work with plants more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
kirtu said:
So you are also harassing people.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dude, the FBI knocked down the door to his house, locked and loaded, looking for cyber terrorists. I think you would be venting a bit if it happened to you. This is Andrew's party....you would cry to if it happened to you...

kirtu said:
If this actually happened then this needs to be taken to the national press for an investigation of how the FBI can be manipulated and used as a tool against other people.  That is very dangerous and imperils the republic.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a matter of public record, it was published in the national media for crying out loud.

kirtu said:
The talk about "Nyingma taliban" ect., death threats without evidence is simply incendiary.  If there were death threats, etc. then this needs to be taken to a prosecutor.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say they issued a death warrant, I said they issued a fatwa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatw " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;ā

kirtu said:
However as you said Malcolm, the best thing to do on a personal level is simply to ignore the people.  However the possible manipulation of the FBI and possible death threats have to be handled legally.
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew was arrested in connection with Bill Cassidy and then released when it was ascertained he and Cassidy were not the same person nor acting in concert.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
mujushinkyo said:
So you're saying that if I make fun of tulkus I should expect someone to frame me up with the FBI and try to get me killed?

Malcolm wrote:
Around the world, in every religion, people are moving in a more fundamentalist direction. Yes, also in Buddhism. So, since you were perceived to be a threat by a minor league self-appointed Nyingma Taliban, they issued a fatwa against you which is apparently still in force. Rather than admit they made have been mistaken, they have no choice but to continue to harass you. So now you are the subject of a holy jihad.  This is characteristic of the religious mentality. It is not a characteristic of the yogic or spiritual mentality. And converts to a religion, you will recall, are usually far more zealous in the prosecution of their new faith (embarassingly so) than people raised in it. Honestly, the only way to win is to not play (classic game theory). Twitter is a such a stupid service anyway.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: Do Theravadins have anything similar to Dzogchen?
Content:
catlady2112 said:
I am curious if the Theravadin tradition has anything equivalent to dzogchen view/practices?  Is there even a translation of the word "Dzogchen" into pali (via sanskrit)?  Thx!

Malcolm wrote:
No and no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Actually, look closely. Greg: all three accounts specify that Mipham will not be reborn in Tibet.He said to Khenpo Kunphel:

I shall not take rebirth in Tibet. In twenty years, seek me in the northern lands of distant Uttarakuru, and elsewhere, east, west, north and south. Fear not, we shall be re-united again, as father and son. Now go!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
mujushinkyo said:
I did write that "obese tulkus make better lovers" tweet. I really do enjoy satire and the absurd, and once it struck me that the people in question weren't going to let me alone no matter what, I indulged this enjoyment fully. I maintain that I have a right to satirize tulkus on my own Twitter page.

I'd like to publish a little book of "tulku tweets" -- not just by me but by a dozen other people at least -- because many of them are really funny, and cumulatively they seem to gain something, even becoming hilarious.

heart said:
If you provoke people you should not be surprised when they get provoked, it is just ordinary cause and effect. Even if you don't consider yourself a Buddhist you should be careful with your actions. I think your expression "tulku tweets" show that your intention isn't the best.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Dude, the FBI knocked down the door to his house, locked and loaded, looking for cyber terrorists. I think you would be venting a bit if it happened to you. This is Andrew's party....you would cry to if it happened to you...

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kirtu said:
The US could still live up to it's promise, become a democracy and help lead humanity to a bright future.
But the way it's going now, the US is on track to create the Ferengi Alliance, although as Quark pointed out in StarTrek DS9 humans are already much worse than Ferengi.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
No, the Ferengi Alliance is the WTO, IMF, and the World Bank.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


kirtu said:
I am a US Army veteran.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have healthcare.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Mariusz said:
In my humble POV, the best is to do what one's own master of Dzogchen point-out, not necessary Namkhai Norbu...

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, and no one said otherwise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
The Seeker said:
These actions require an actual brain and nervous system to carry out these functions, primarily feeling.

Malcolm wrote:
Plants certainly exhibit the characteristic of feeling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 11:31 AM
Title: Re: My Open Message to Gyatrul Rinpoche
Content:
mujushinkyo said:
What's more, some of the things they're saying about me are quite serious.  I see nothing wrong with appealing to other Buddhists, sane Buddhists, for help.

Malcolm wrote:
You may have noticed a remarkable importence on the part of the Tibetan ecclesiastical hierarchy to deal with problems of their own creation, whether eastern or western.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The standard Buddhist view is that there are sentient beings who lack form. This is not accepted in Dzogchen teachings.

gregkavarnos said:
Is this because consciousness is based on the element of wind/air in Dzogchen theory?


Malcolm wrote:
As we have seen, for Dzogchen it is because the differentiation between mind and vāyu is merely nominal (different names for the same thing in a body), and thus, all sentient beings must have a physical body, even if it is very subtle, including formless realm beings. Vāyu of course is the name of the air element, and means that. Vāyu, air (Tibetan: rlung) is given the name "prāṇa" (Tibetan: srog) soley because it gives life. Furthere, each of the five elements contains the potentiality of the other four elements within it.

Plants also use prāṇavāyu...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen, Buddhism and culture
Content:
username said:
So lets appreciate what we have inherited as civil rights and democracy which is not guaranteed to last forever.

Malcolm wrote:
Amen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Lhug-Pa said:
Yep, 9 PM EDT.

Although I think it got changed to a closed webcast as of yesterday, as I had to login onto the Shang Shung webcast video page when entered the website.

Virgo said:
Thanks Lhug-Pa.  Guess I'll find out at nine.  If it's closed I probably won't be able to get in.

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
its open, you just have click on audio or video


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
The quotes give two accounts:  one of Ju Mipham saying he will not reincarnate and one saying that he will reincarnate, but not in Tibet.  Both accounts were oral directives given to his attendents.

Malcolm wrote:
Three accounts, Greg: two to students, one publically. So two out of three.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[
You have to realize that Kirt is basically a Monarchist.

M

Virgo said:
Really?  I am surprised

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he buys into the idea of enlightened rulers. Of course at the end of the day that is just Plato's Repulic redux, the original fascist nightmare.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism and Eternalism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Again, Madhyamaka revisionism.

gregkavarnos said:
Well, excuse me if I prefer Madhyamaka revisionism to an attempt to introduce the atman into Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:
I am merely pointing out that what Madhyamakas say about Tathagatagarbha theory does not necessarily represent the intent of the texts in question themselves. This is why Dolbupa vehemently refuted such Madhyamaka reads of the Tgarbha theory. +


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism and Eternalism
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
The True Self alluded to in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra is merely the realisation of the dependently arisen nature of ones existence, the True Self is merely a realisation of the illusory quality of the coventional self.  That is the explanation I have heard from a lecture series on the Wheel of Sharp Weapons by Berzin.  It's got NOTHING to do with the idea of an atman.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, Madhyamaka revisionism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
Will said:
Malcolm:  All that is necessary after having received Dzogchen direct introduction (from ChNN) is Guru Yoga.
Must one be in the physical presence, with few people around, for this introduction to be experienced?

Is every transmission from the Guru to disciple X always received loud and clear?

Or is only one transmission, fully experienced, needed?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen language is fairly straight foward and simple, the examples clear, the implications however can take some time to sink in. Many people or few people makes no difference, as long you as are interested, participate as fully as you can and do not expect that direct introduction is a passive experience.

One direct transmission, followed by diligence in application of practice is all you need. Of course some people become transmission junkies searching for something they don't know they are "holding in their hands".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2012 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Content:


heart said:
In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the principle of Dzogchen that you need to gather something you do not have. It is the principle of Dzogchen to recognize what you already possess.

Relatively speaking, merit ensures rebirth in higher realms, and that is it.

M

heart said:
You think merit has an intention? That sounds like God to me. Merit becomes whatever we dedicate it to, that is why we dedicate it to the full enlightenment of all sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Merit is intention, it does not have intention.

The effect of merit is to ensure rebirth in higher realms. It eventually got conflated with the pre-Buddhist notion of the major and minor marks of a mahāpurusha, which in turn became the major and minor marks of the physical body of a nirmanakāya.


heart said:
Long life, happiness, a great Guru that gives you the direct introduction and the possibility to and capacity as well as the will to practice the instructions until full realization, that is merit. If you have to work all day, have no money, never see your Guru, as many of us live. This is certainly a lack of merit.

You can certainly practice anyway but it is a lot more difficult. Merit can't make us recognize the natural state but it certainly helps a lot.

Malcolm wrote:
Merit, being conditioned and relative, can certainly assist our relative and conditioned state, but that is all. In dzogchen, the rūpakāya is not considered a result of merit, instead it is also an expression of thugs rje.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2012 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Stages
Content:
In the bone yard said:
Both stages are necessary after the pointing out no matter what lineage you practice.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not so. All that is necessary after having received Dzogchen direct introduction (from ChNN) is Guru Yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2012 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Hi Malcolm - what has ChNN said about the two accumulations and Dzogchen? I'm wondering particularly about accumulation of merit. As you know there are contrived practices within Tibetan Buddhism for the accumulations. How does this work in Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, as I understand it, the two accumulations have always been complete.

M

heart said:
In the natural state they are complete, but that don't help you much when your not in the natural state.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the principle of Dzogchen that you need to gather something you do not have. It is the principle of Dzogchen to recognize what you already possess.

Relatively speaking, merit ensures rebirth in higher realms, and that is it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2012 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kirtu said:
The primary impulse of the west is to control other people and restrict their creativity through serfdom.  Marx was essentially correct on this point.

Kirt

Anders said:
I have never met or heard of anyone with an impulse to such a thing. Nor do I believe there is a conspiracy to effect this.

It may be an unintentional consequence of western society, but I don't believe it is the driving impulse.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to realize that Kirt is basically a Monarchist.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2012 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


heart said:
Are you suggesting our conditions are only formed by our opinions?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
I am suggesting that people have a right to assess their own experience without being gainsayed by others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 2nd, 2012 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:


JKhedrup said:
So I think that while the teachings are presented in this sort of containerless form, ChNN does see tremendous value in traditions as preserved in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, and those of other cultures as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mariusz said:
Excuse me for curiosity. Can I have the answers about the webcast  please? When we hear Rinpoche, it is only electronic sound but not his voice and when we see Rinpoche, it is only the pixels but not his body. If we do not have the connection what we are seeing and what we are hearing, how the transmission really works?


Lhug-Pa said:
Because it is that we're in the same moment with Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche when he intends to give the transmission(s); so since we are in the same moment with his intention, distance is not an issue at all.


Mariusz said:
Has Rinpoche in the past webcasts done a Direct Introduction to Rigpa ever?

Lhug-Pa said:
Yes.

The first few pages of this thread, and at least three other threads as well, have some in-depth discussions regarding this.

Mariusz said:
Sorry, I will read them if have more time. But can I quickly question: Has Rinpoche ever said it is better to have the direct oral transmission (tib. lung) by him than by interenet only? What about DI, is better to meet him at least one time in order to take directly DI from Him, or the same will be if one has never met him and only takes DI from internet?

Malcolm wrote:
CHNN has many times made the statment that receiving transmission and direct introduction from him via webcast is no different than being there in person.

The only exception to this rule is that he will not attempt to do elaborate anuyoga style empowerments via webcast -- for those you must be present. He does frquently give don dbangs, or meaning empowerments via webcast however. He considers the latter more essential and more profound.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Blue Garuda said:
Was this sufficient transmission to engage in the Guru Dragphur practice per se...?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
conebeckham said:
Well....okay.  But it is possible that it did, in fact, make a difference, though he has no "conscious experience" of the difference, is it not?

In other words, one often does not know one's Karma, and it is possible that accumulation of merit occurred, creating seeds, etc., etc., without one being "aware" of it.   Do you disagree?

"Recognition" is a wonderful thing, I grant you, and sustaining it is also a wonderful thing, but I think we can all agree that there are causes and conditions that lead to recognition, and often those causes and conditions are not "consciously recognized."

Yes?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know why we have to spend so much time second guessing people's experience. If he said it didn't help, it didn't. If Magnus said it helped him, then it did. You feel me?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:


kirtu said:
Which other texts?


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāparinirvana sūtra for one.

kirtu said:
Dang, I fell into your trap.  I have to actually sit down and read that sutra through but you are refering to Chapter 12 where the Tathagatagarbha is identified as the self, etc.?  Of course sutra's are finger's pointing to the moon, not the moon itself.  It is of course true that the Tathagatagarbha is the self as all beings are endowed with the potential to attain Buddhahood.  However that Tathagatagarbha is not self-existent and fully developed (unless we want to suggest that a person's occasional good deed and spontaneous compassion is a sign of the Tathagatagarbha lurking beneath the conditioned surface).  We could go round and round (and you have in various explanations over the years and forums).  And I could hardly raise a real objection to your arguments.

Nonetheless I would suggest that at least two of the three men's views that were raised a few posts ago, and possibly all three, would almost certainly admit a stronger degree of eternalism than that possibly raised in the Mahāparinirvana Sūtra.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement about the Tathagatagabha sutras is the polished and revisionist Madhyamaka/Yogacara version of Tgarbha theory. I personally beleive they are every bit as eternalistic in intent as their critics thought them to be. Unlike Madhyamaka [PP sutras] and Yogacara [yogacara sutras] there are no surviving independent treatises which do not belong to either of the aforementioned schools on Tgarbha theory. Tgarbha theory too is arguably much earlier than Yogacara. And the gzhan stong of Dolbuba is fully as eternlist as he is accused of being. Just saying...

M

But this is


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
Simon E. said:
I did the full Kagyu Ngondro.
It made no difference one way or another to the transmission of Dzogchen ..

heart said:
I did to, how do you know it didn't make no different?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Because he said so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:


kirtu said:
Which other texts?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāparinirvana sūtra for one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
All in all Malcolm i do respect your better visions and they are great and inside Dzochen understandable, but we must bear in mind that others can have problems with your very fast methods of taking conclusions. I guess if this was done within a year then it was better with understanding your changing etc., but it went so fast from one person we knew Namdrol to Malcolm. And all within here aboard 3 weeks?

Realy believe me it is all very overwhelming, not expected etc. and then this 180 degree contra that what you mostly did believe before.

All very fast, so it does need a certain time to let sink all (new informations / corrections etc. , then many can see better through.

Malcolm wrote:
Understandable.

However, in Dzogchen we do have the metaphor of the Garuda, who develops his ability to fly while still in the egg. Of course, this metphor really refers to the practitioner who seems ordinary in life, when "the shell of the body" is broken, emerges with all qualities complete in the bardo. Not really making that claim -- but what I am saying is that in most people their personal evolution is not something they usually wear on their sleeve.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
kirtu said:
So that's what I base my assertion on.  While I haven't spoken to them personally I have nonetheless heard and read their words.

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh. Buddha also taught eternalism for some folks.

kirtu said:
Yes, that's true.  But that was also upaya in order to get them to not fall into nihilism.

Malcolm wrote:
That's what some texts say. And there are other texts that say the opposite.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
kirtu said:
So that's what I base my assertion on.  While I haven't spoken to them personally I have nonetheless heard and read their words.

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh. Buddha also taught eternalism for some folks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
kirtu said:
Of course esp. in our dark world one can learn lovingkindness and compassion and service from these great people.    But they are not teaching a realization of anatta (except possibly in the gross sense of the breakdown or dissolution of artificial ego barriers).
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
How do you know? Did you ever talk to them about whether they accept a personal self?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Institutional Buddhism
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
If Namdrol would be in Nyingma or Bon, then he would have obtained there Dzogchen earlier and he would be satisfied with that and his Buddhist knowledge, if i may assume that. But Malcolm did reached that insight about Dzogchen after a tough study from many years. How many years when i  may ask? And Malcolm doesn' t regret it all at the moment, i hope so. I mean so many years to reach Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Kalsang:

I took refuge in May, 1989 with HH Sakya Trizin.

My first direct encounter with Dzogchen teachings was in 1990 when I attended a lecture on Rushan from Tri Yeshe Lama -- I didn't understand anything.

Then in 1992 I recevied the Guuhyagarbha empowerment from Bakha Tulku and the explanation of the Rongzom's commentary on that tantra from him. I met Chogyal Namkahi Norbu in that year too and attended a retreat with him that year and in 1993 (klong sde). I also met Khenpo Jigphun in 1993 and received from him his complete Manjushri Dzogchen cycle, the Khandro Nyinghthig wang, and the transmission for the Chetsun Nyingthig. I practiced the latter for some time while in my three year retreat.

When I got out of my three retreat I more or less gave up all formal sadhana practice apart from Tregchö for some years apart from receiving the Nyingma Kama transmissions from Penor Rinpoche in 1998 and the explanation of the Buddha in the Palm of Your Hand Ngondro cycle.

In 2001 I met Taklung Tsetrul Rinoche and received his permission to read and translate the five volumes of the Gongpa Zangthal teachings. I also met Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in that year.

In 2002, I met Chogyal Namkhai Norbu again.

At the end of 2002 I received the Nyingthig Yazhi from KDL, and continued to receive many teachings from him in 2004 and 2005 including most of his termas and complete tregchö and thögal from him.

In 2006, 2007, and 2008, I received more instructions on Man ngag sde from Kunzang Dechen's Lingpa's son, Ridzin Dorje.

During this time I was also receiving regular teachings from ChNN, as well as studying to become a doctor of Tibetan Medicine (2005-2009).

It is funny, people often think I am a Sakya, but in fact I have received more Dzogchen teachings than I have received sadhana instruction, or sutrayāna instruction apart from my early days with the Sakaya school and my three year retreat in Sakya. The main Sakya teachings I have received are Tsembupa Chenrezi cycle, Lamdre Tsogshad, and the Vajrayogini Lobshad cycles, and that's it. I have received far more Nyingma teachings than Sakya ones, so it is a little bizzare when people call me a Sakyapa. Of course, I have a title from Sakya, i.e. Acarya based on mostly on my mastery of Tibetan, three year retreat and early course work, Abhidharma and so on and the fact that I have helped Lama Migmar Tseten over the years in many ways. But I am no Geshe, and I am not nearly as well educated as some people assume I am. What I am is an aggressive reader.

So, in fact, when you add it all together, I have received more Dzogchen teachings than any other kind of teaching, and that history goes back for more than 20 years. Not only that, but I had dreams about ChNN in 1987-8, before I ever took refuge.

When I decided I was a Buddhist, it was because I was standing in the rain listening to a group of Japanese woman recite the heart sutra on Hiezan near Kyoto in the summer of 1986. Up to that point I was a musician (fiddle, guitar, bass, early electronica).

So, just so you understand I have been devoting myself to Dzogchen practice for 20 years now self-consciously. Of course, there have been over the years a lot of turmoil in my understanding because my early three years in Sakya and my former drive for orthodox understanding caused inner conflict. Howeer, in the end my love of the Dzogchen teachings and personal value of them for me won out. I happen to be good at tenet systems and have a good memory so it used to fun to debate in a polemical way.

But now I find it heart wrenching and very wrong headed. We live in a world where the five poisons fill not just our minds, but where they are expressed in our very environment, in the way the five elements are in conflcit with one another. But of course there is also beauty too, for as I sit writing this, the lovely scent of our Kazanalik roses waft in through my library window.

We cannot do anything about the cycle of living and dying, the fact that we are all food for each other, but we can, through tolerance, natural compassion, and mutual recognition of each other's humanity transcend these divisions that so alienate us from each other, that cause us to split in religion, sect, and tribe and conduct war with other, denying one another our basic humanity through objectifying those who do not understand what we thing we understand as "other".

There are no others. All beings are our reflection; through all beings we find ourselves, and see our own faces. And when we meet a master, or two, or three, or more, we have a chance to see our real face. Having seen that real face, how can we deny that to others. Our real face is not white, black, red, yellow. It is not Buddhist, non-Buddhist, or something in between. When we have seen our own real face, then we will see the real face of all others and all of these petty differences just melt.

Please don't think I have had some sudden epiphany -- these thoughts I am expressing have come about through a long process of tempering, heated through hearing, sharpened through meditation and polished through prajñā-- but in the forging of a practitioner is nothing that ever reaches completion until total realization.

In the Samurai tradition, there is a concept of the life-giving sword -- I would like to think of Dharma the same way. When Buddhadhama is wielded polemically, to enforce a view, or a postion, or a policy, or a political stance, it too can be just as destructive as a sword wrongly wielded. And in this I am as guilty as any petty sectarian scholar, since I have been petty sectarian scholar for many years. The sword of Dharma should never be drawn lightly. The sword of Dharma should only be drawn to preserve life, to draw people together, who see its highly polished glint and look at it with awe rather than fear. When the sword of Dharma is unsheathed, the scent of attar of rose should fill the air, not blood.

So you see, for me, I have no interest anymore in sectarian buddhism that characterizes so much of "buddhist discourse" over the centuries. The siddha movement in late medieval India was non-sectarian -- it produced two main heirs, the Vajrayāna tradition of Tibet and the Natha Sampradaya, as well as other offshoots. "Non-Buddhist" bards call the Bauls in Bengal still sing the Dohas contained in the Caryagiti. Some people think Vajrayāna disappeared into India. Nothing could be further from the truth. India and its outlying regions such as Oḍḍiyāna have been the garden for the many spiritual movements. They sprout, they flourish, they fruit, they are harvested, and in the end they are ploughed back into the soil to provide nourishment for furture spiritual movements. Occasionally, strains escaped from India, and flourished in Isolation. Dzogchen is just one such movement. Mahāyāna another.

I have spent the last 20 years devoting almost my whole life to Buddhist texts, and in particular Dzogchen texts. Everything I have studied or read was somehow related to my practice, even my working stuff out as a sectarian jerk (which people still accuse me of) was related somehow to my practice. I have come to the point in my understanding where I clearly see that all these sectarian divisions of this relgion and that relgion are negative. Not in the sense that we should not all pursue a spiritual path that is pleasing to us (right now mine is smelling roses, listening to music and typing this post), but in the sense we should be kind and generous about others spiritual paths. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying put on rose-colored spectacles and ignore for example that in the past there have been grave injustices met out to many peoples in the name of religion, the misdeeds of institutional religion in all its forms. We can recognize these and then move on.

Humanity needs to move into post-religious, post-tribal phase where we meet each other with respect and decency. I am trying my best to meet all of you here on Dwheel from that point of view, and I also fail, will fail, have failed, and for that I am sorry. But my deepest wish is that we can all just get past all divisive nonsense and focus on what is truly important. It's a process, and no one gets it right the first time.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
kirtu said:
...but this is not the same understanding and realization as Buddhdharma.

Malcolm wrote:
When you have realized Buddhadharma, then you can say something about the "realization of Buddhadharma". As for understanding, there are a hundred different understandings of Buddhadharma, and some are quite "eternalistic". In the meantime, it is better to keep and open mind and not create more unnecessary divisions in an already fractured world.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 1st, 2012 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Why everybody keeps calling it a Buddhist community is well beyond me!  I mean the "secular" newspapers who have no idea, I can understand, but now even Tricycle?  Mind you, from what I hear about Tricycle... Sigh...

Knotty Veneer said:
I know what you mean. I just got spammed by Tricycle for a "BuddhaFest Online Film Festival" which included a film about Ram Das and video of a performance by Krishna Das. Now I am sure the latter two gentlemen are wonderful people but neither is Buddhist.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, both Ram Das and Krishna Das are students of Tulku Orgyen. Many of Neem Karoli Baba's students wound up sitting at the feet of Tulku Orgyen and many are still involved with Gomde crowd, Danny Goleman, etc.

But your comments are just more proof of what a confining and narrow box the label "Buddhist" has come to be. The first place I ever encountered Guru Rinpoche and his mantra was in Be Here Now.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Lhasa said:
If someone had said it involves yoga positions and you need to be be physically fit to do them, :

Malcolm wrote:
These postions do not require you to be physically fit. Longde was originally transmitted to an 80 year old guy who had to rest his chin on a stick.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
alpha said:
i am trying to understand the connection between  Donwang of Heruka Ngondzog Gyalpo,longde and the Guru Yoga with AUM.
My understanding is that whenever one does a session of longde practice one has to do the Guru Yoga with AUM to connect with the transmission  of this particular practice of longde .
Is this correct?

Another question i have is related to The Donwang itself.
For me personally this donwang was particularly powerful.
Is there any point in repeating it as a way of Guru yoga or as a way of re-actualizing the transmission?

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
As to question one, yes.

As to two, no.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Quite a few, if not most of the arguments used by vegetarians to illustrate why not eating meat is a wise choice are valid. It may be better for your health, better for the environment, and will separate one slightly from the slaughterhouse industry.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what kind of meat. Industrial agriculture produces inferior food, whether plant or animal, organic or conventional, since it is based on petro-chemicals is not nourishing. Eat local, eat in season, eat a wide variety of things. Then you will be healthy.

The bulk of food ideologies are hoaxes. And yes, it is inevitable that for some beings to live, other beings must die.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:


Virgo said:
Maybe you ought to realize that it is the nature of man to use force.  You seem to wish to deny this fact and ignore it.  However, you would have the law makers force all people in the land to not eat meat at all, and have the enforcers of the law armed to the teeth to enforce such.  Who's the one that's confused now?

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
Forget it Kev -- this guy is into the food police all the while complaining about "violence". Vegan fascism, basically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
That is also not an argument.

Earlier in this thread when you tried to produce what you thought were good arguments or facts for meat consumption you mentioned about hypothetical ideal grass feed livestock operations even specifically mentioning the infamous Polyface farm of Joel Salatin. I dealt with that here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=213&p=99443&hilit=polyface+farms#p99443 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=213&p=99470&hilit=vegetarian+myth#p99470 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Counting the surrounding forest so vital to that operation you can only feed a very meager 2 people per 10 acres. That kind of meat is also very expensive for consumers, and like all other meat it is also costly for the environment and the health-care system.

Malcolm wrote:
The idea it their method of animal husbandry is costly for the enviroment is total nonsense. You obviously have not read a single thing written by Salatan.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
Obviously veganism promotes less violence and not more, if it didn't you could figure out an actual argument instead of innuendo.

Malcolm wrote:
What nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 9:13 AM
Title: Re: the great vegetarian debate
Content:


Thrasymachus said:
Now that is for people, for animals, especially livestock, they live with much more restrictions, with almost no choice possible and much more violence used against them to suit taste preferences which demand cheap meat. What people like you don't want to realize is that your way of life is predicated on a huge amount of violence, coercion, techniques of manipulation. For the developed world to live their relatively lavish lifestyle, they victimize most the rest of the globe. It is not a way of life you have a right to live, it is maintained by force, by the American military, its allies, by coercive institutions like the IMF, the World bank, etc.

So people are ok with force, what they are not ok is having to do with less than they are accustomed to, that is the root of the issue. If you are an adult and you don't already realize such things it is because you don't want to know.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh I see, Veganism is the solution to the world woes? Give me a break.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 31st, 2012 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Plant Sentient
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="Blue Garuda"]

My point was that on the basis of that assertion it is not logical to claim that all things with form are therefore sentient.

[/quite]

I never made that inference.


