﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
That's good to know. So why is 10 minutes of a Song of Vajra better than 10 minutes of some other Atiyoga guru yoga mantra and visualization? And then how is that better than just resting in rigpa?

Malcolm wrote:
Because the song of the vajra has another name "The primordial state of Samantabhadra".

When relying on a non-conceptual continuum,
at this time one should sing...
If concentration is not occurring for someone,
with this it occurs naturally...
When a yogin has lethargy,
when revived with this, samadhi is excellent...
Therefore, sing the song of the vajra.
-- Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon.

Song of the Vajra is ChNN's main practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
I am a very close disciple of KDL, one of his main US students. So, I will explain. He told me that he had received the Nyingthig Yazhi the first time when he was five.

He had transmission already.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
In one's sadhana.

Malcolm wrote:
One can sing the Dzogchen song of the vajra, any version one has transmission for, whenever one likes to identical effect.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.

adinatha said:
Well I didn't mean sing it anywhere. In one's sadhana.
Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.
The one in the Tun book differs from the one in the Tantra of Union of Sun and Moon. I asked Jim Valby about this. He told me the version in the Tun Book came from ChNN's dream.

Malcolm wrote:
That is correct, there are many different versions of the Song of the Vajra, in many different termas. They all share basic characteristics, however.

The one ChNN uses is more or less identical to the version Longchenpa presents in the Theg mchog mdzod apart from one or two syllables, differences that can be accounted for through scribal transcription errors from umed to uchen when the original blocs were prepared.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.

Namdrol said:
What I meant was that freedom from grasping is progressively more and more subtle as one moves through the practices of the nine yānas.

No need to add "energy" to winds. The composition of vāyus is vāyu, the element of air. We term them "winds" in English because they move through the channels of body. Wind is moving air -- no movement, no wind.

N

cloudburst said:
so dzogchen view is sutra view of freedom from grasping made more and more subtle as one moves through the yanas. This is description also aptly describes the mind of clear light.

the purpose in adding "energy" to winds is to differentiate "moving air" from moving energy. If you already understand this, there is as you say no need for this term. There is however no fault in adding it for purposes of clarity.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess I am not explaining this clearly: dzogchen view is the ultimate freedom from grasping, quite beyond sūtra.

The only difference between wind in your body and wind outside your body is that it is in your body. There is no "energy" apart from vāyu. There are ten vāyus. The less those vāyus move in the body, the more subtle the mind becomes.

I don't think adding the term "energvy" makes the concept about what is happening in the human body any clearer, and rather more muddled.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you would like to believe that whatever it is in Greek Orthodoxy you are calling "rainbow body" is absolutely equivalent with achieving complete Buddhahood, that's up to you. I don't buy it.

gregkavarnos said:
You don't believe that a serious [insert religious label of choice] ascetic practitioner can achieve the state of a pratyekabuddha (for example)?  Or maybe that some teachings may have leaked (snuck) into other religious traditions?  Or maybe [insert religious label of choice] practitioners do not possess the tathagatagarbha?


Malcolm wrote:
Prayetkabuddhas do not achieve rainbow body.

And no, I don't believe that Dzogchen leaked into any tradition other than Bon.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N

adinatha said:
That is ChNN talking. Jim Valby told me the Song of Vajra is his terma tradition. I took this to mean Song of Vajra is not indispensable, because there are so many guru yoga methods. Whether you sing a song, visualize a picture or hum a mantra, you are doing something to get into not doing something. What that doing something is, is blessings.


Malcolm wrote:
What I meant was guru yoga is indispensable. After that, Song of the vajra is indispensable. But one cannot just sing song of the vajra out loud anywhere. it would be strange. Of course, you can mentally sing it everywhere.

Song of the vajra is not just ChNN's terma tradition. It is very important. Key in Dzogchen teachings. I cannot emphasize how much how important it is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:46 AM
Title: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:


caveman said:
Stripping everything from Buddhism and Hinduism you have the transmigration of the soul, PERIOD.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no soul, person, atman, sattva, jiva, you name it -- it does not exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.

adinatha said:
What you don't believe in divine revelation?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I'm sure the Christians will give you the same answer but merely substitute the word Christian Orthodox(y) for the word Dzogchen.


Malcolm wrote:
If you would like to believe that whatever it is in Greek Orthodoxy you are calling "rainbow body" is absolutely equivalent with achieving complete Buddhahood, that's up to you. I don't buy it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book?


Namdrol said:
Because sometimes, when people have more time and leisure, they can do a more elaborate secondary practice.

adinatha said:
What for? If you have knowledge and are in guru state, why bother?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the practitioner. Depends on what they feel they need to do. The only thing that is absolutely essential is guru yoga followed by song of the vajra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
No doubt about it. Live teacher is indispensible. Sometimes a no teacher faulty practice blooms into a master in your face before you can blink your eyes.

Malcolm wrote:
No teacher, no practice of Dzogchen. Period.


adinatha said:
Really because hearing, studying and contemplating are the three mutually self-reinforcing ways to practice dharma. In Ati especially, I feel this is key. And here we are sangha. This ain't Showtime.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, AFAIC, people should not discuss Dzogchen too much in places like this.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.

gregkavarnos said:
There are rainbow body practices in the Eastern Orthodox church and a number of accounts of ascetics achieving the rainbow body, so...


Malcolm wrote:
I don't think so. Rainbow body in Dzogchen is something very precise, connected with the teachings. No teachings, no rainbow body from a Dzogchen POV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
Besides, what do you think ChNNR places all those mantras and visualizations in the Tun book?


Malcolm wrote:
Because sometimes, when people have more time and leisure, they can do a more elaborate secondary practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
What you are saying here seems obvious.

Malcolm wrote:
Obvious to some, but you would be amazed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
If you hear ChNN talk you can easily get this idea too. He talks about how he reads the Bible and understands the Trinity to be Dzogchen, and the one God to be Unity.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of someone who understands the real meaning of Dzogchen, everything looks like Dzogchen, even nursery rhymes.

But this does not mean that the Bible contains some profound insight in Dzogchen.

In this case it is a question of what kind of glasses you have on. If you are wearing Dzogchen glasses everything can seem like Dzogchen.

But it is funny, ChNN occasionally says things like this, and IMO, immediately people completely misunderstand the meaning he is trying to convey.

He certainly does not mean that there are secret Dzogchen practitioners in the Catholic or Lutheran Church from time immemorial.

He is not a "John Reynolds" style "Jesus got Rainbow Body" type.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Enochian said:
Adinatha talks a LOT about guru yoga, but is he aware than in Dzogchen that guru yoga is nothing other than abiding in the natural state?

Maybe Namdrol can verify.

A lot of people misunderstand the symbolism of the A in the thigle at the heart (Dzogchen guru yoga).


Malcolm wrote:
I am sure he has some idea since he has attended webcasts. He probably also knows that in the community, Norbu Rinpoche never stresses devotion as the key point of guru yoga, rather he stresses knowledge as the key point of guru yoga.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
lovely.

So the coarse freedom from grasping of sutra becomes progressively more subtle.

It seems to me that the freedom from grasping explained in sutra becomes more subtle as the energy winds supporting the view gather and are pacified, so perhaps clear light and Dzogchen view differ in presentation only.

Malcolm wrote:
What I meant was that freedom from grasping is progressively more and more subtle as one moves through the practices of the nine yānas.

No need to add "energy" to winds. The composition of vāyus is vāyu, the element of air. We term them "winds" in English because they move through the channels of body. Wind is moving air -- no movement, no wind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
There is Atiyoga language synonymous with experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you have this experience.

Otherwise, Dzogchen texts are confusing bullshit.

Re: ad hominem -- I didn't attack you, I expressed an opinion about what you wrote here, qualified with "seems".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
cloudburst said:
I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?

Namdrol said:
The difference is summed up nicely by " Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."

N

cloudburst said:
The Glorious Sakya. Unstoppable.

However, from my pov, we cannot equate a view free from grasping with the very subtle mind of clear light. It is possible to have view free from grasping as a result of following the sutra path, whereas clear light depends upon empowerment.

Do you say this parting from the four attachments expresses the Dzogchen view? "Free from grasping" is the dzogchen view? Is that adequate, or do you add something?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the final line in Parting expresses Dzogchen view. But this is not an intellectual "freedom from grasping". The freedom from grasping of sutra is a coarse freedom from grasping. Freedom from grasping becomes progressively more subtle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
cloudburst said:
I suppose I do not know if this is what I mean, as this terminology falls outside my experience. How is this uncontrived momentary awareness different from my moment to moment uncontrived awareness?

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is summed up nicely by " Parting From The Four Attachments "If grasping arises, it is no the view."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
Let me be really specific now. Longchenpa says it is possible to be liberated just from reading his words.


Malcolm wrote:
This does not mean that one will manifest buddhahood immediately.

There are many texts in Dzogchen which stated "merely by reading these words one will be liberated". There is also "merely by hearing this one will be liberated", "merely by tasting this one will be liberated", "merely by seeing this one will be liberated", "merely by smelling this one will be liberated", "merely by touching this one will be liberated", etc.

This is all part of the six liberations traditions in Dzogchen. It means you have created a good cause for liberation in your continuum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
cloudburst said:
I wonder if you feel that very subtle mind of clear light and view of Dzogchen are same? If not, what is difference?

Malcolm wrote:
If by "subtle mind of clear light" you mean an "uncontrived momentary awareness" (ma bcos pa shes pa skad cig ma), then the view is  similar.

But prasanga can never lead to that so called "subtle mind of clear light" -- it lacks the method.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
This shouldn't take long then, I'm waiting...

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that Dzogchen language is very misleading unless grounded in personal experience.

One either has that personal experience or one does not. It is not the kind of thing one can brag about on an internet forum and expect it to be convincing to others. Mostly, they will just think you are full of sh!t.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Enochian said:
We know that Sarma material affected the Old School Dzogchen.

What about the other way?

Dzogchen influence on Sarma?

Malcolm wrote:
yes, it exists. Dzogchen masters present gsar ma material very differently than those without training in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
The main point is well represented in English.

Malcolm wrote:
We will have to disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
It's an interesting opinion. Often these things just come down to the way you slice the pie. Prasangika is indeed an analytical method, but one could also say that the prasangika methodology produces an experiential understanding. So prasangika was both created from and is productive of experience of the Ultimate.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the same as Dzogchen.


cloudburst said:
Jigme Lingpa's presentation of emptiness in Treasury of Precious Qualities is wholly concordant with the presentation of Je Tsongkhapa. Your useage may seem a little unclear, as "derived from" could be taken to mean he came up with terms that were derived as part of a process that began with Gelug yigcha, whereas, and I am sure this is what you mean, the terms he used were taken directly from these yigcha and pressed into service without adulteration.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as I am concerned, saying that view of Dzogchen and the prasanga view of Tsongkhapa are the same goes too far, is overly simplistic at best. Jigme Lingpa does not go this far at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
You don't know what I am primarily.

Malcolm wrote:
I have only your verbal opinions to go on.

You have bandied about a bunch of slogans, combined them with frequent references to Gampopa, etc.

As I said, based on what you have shared, your view seems very Kagyu influenced.

This is not a bad thing, but Kagyu is a sngags gsar ma school, and they tend to subordinate Dzogchen as just another "means".

Based on what you have said, I don't think we share a similar understanding of Dzogchen.

Oh certainly, I can agree with superficial slogans, but that is not the essence of the teachings.

Dzogchen language is very simple -- for this reason it is difficult to understand correctly for it is very profound.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
Atiyoga tantras are well published, public and stand on their own. I'm just bringing them up.

Malcolm wrote:
They are published in Tibetan, not in English.

There is a paltry few that are available in translation.


adinatha said:
My premise is that there is a profound inner meaning of effortlessness without paths or progression that underlies all three series of Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Slogans are easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
It is interesting in the context of this discussion to not that Jigme Lingpa himself understood and presented the view from the point of view of Je Tsongkhapa's presentation, so we must accept that the view of Lama Tsongkhapa and the view of Dzogchen are harmonious at very least.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to qualify this -- Jigme Lingpa presented Prasangika Madhyamaka in terms derived from Tsongkhapa since he was in fact educated with a Gelug yigcha.

While he opined that from an analytical point of view that Dzogchen and Prasangika could be regarded as equivalent in terms of how they presented freedom from proliferation, he clarified that Dzogchen is experiential, whilst prasangika is wholly analytical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Maybe Namdrol could clarify this.


Malcolm wrote:
It appears to me that our friend, adinatha, is a primarily a Kagyu practitioner.

I don't find his statements especially compatible with Dzogchen as I understand it and practice it.

But I also think that engaging in proofs and refutations using Dzogchen tantras is an abuse of the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders
Content:
spanda said:
Now I see that Namdrol is a Doctor in Tibetan Medicine. Could you clarify for us please this "lung disorder"?
In your opinion, it is possible that in this case, to be something like this involved? What would be the best approach in this case, from the point of view of Tibetan Medicine? Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
A vata disorder occurs when one of the five vāyus in the body becomes deranged.

Simply put frequent massages, rich food, dark, quite, pleasant companions, no stress.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 9:36 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N

adinatha said:
What that means is if the master's direct introduction and blessings haven't entered your mindstream, then one is an elephant if he thinks thoughts are dharmakaya. But in the vastness of the view, everything is.

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever you like to think.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
adinatha said:
It will be supplemented by teachings from Lord Jigten Sumgon's collection of profound secret methods (like chulen of god realm and naga realm), which will never be published, but have been printed in gold and will be held under lock and key.

Malcolm wrote:
They have been published. But not easy to procure.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:


adinatha said:
Atiyoga masters say in many places that when the view is actualized, all appearances shine forth as the liveliness of dharmata or as the ornamentation of dharmata or as dharmakaya itself. All namthog means all appearances must be recognized as maya as self-appearance. The appearance of a thought or vedana here is not conceptualized...

Malcolm wrote:
You seem to think appearances are mental factors, such as vedana, etc., based on your comments. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Longchenpa rejects this idea, and rejects the mentalism you seem to be advocating.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.

adinatha said:
That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.

Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa (vidyā) simply means knowledge, as opposed to avidyā, ignorance.

But I am not going to argue you with about these things. It appears that you are an expert in Dzogchen. Fantastic. We shall be looking for your rainbow body soon.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.

adinatha said:
That's part of a nyingthig methodological jargon that makes a mind/rigpa distinction. What's rigpa, space? Not.
If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.

chos dbying mdzod



N
This is what happens when you take a provisional understanding to be final.

Malcolm wrote:
None of the citations you have provided contradict the basic point Longchenpa is making above

But if you want to consider your discursive thoughts to be dharmakāya, go ahead and be my guest. It's your practice and not mine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 7:16 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
conebeckham said:
I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????


Namdrol said:
The root tantra is a terma, there are many terma tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum.

conebeckham said:
Ok! Interesting.
So.....I'm assuming that within the Kama there is some Tantra or material relating to Vishuddha/Yangdak, as one of the Kagye deities.  Does any of that material relate to so-called "Completion Stage with Characteristics?"

Namdrol, in the Sakyas the Khon family are known as holders of the Yangdak as well as the Kilaya.  I understand the Khon Kilaya is Kama.....I assume the transmission of Yangdak comes from Kama as well?  I know it's not really practiced, as it's similar to Hevajra from what I've heard.....but this would also lead me to believe that Yangdak does, indeed, contain a Completion Stage with some of the features of Hevajra, Samvara, Mahamaya, Etc.....

??

Malcolm wrote:
yes, Kilaya and Yangdag are both Kama. Neither really has a completion stage to speak of. If there was one, it was buried.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 7:16 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
tamdrin said:
based on the discussions happening here I'm starting to feel Sarma Tantras have things to offer that Nyingma tantras do not...


Malcolm wrote:
Well, there was a reason that Tibetan went back to India to gather more teachings. The Vima Snyin thig was probably the last stage in the development of Dzogchen that was not influenced by gsar ma developments, if one is going according to present text critical understanding. But keep in mind, that could easily change with the discovery of some cache of texts, etc. Western textual scholarship is good a useful, but like science, it has stark limitations.

gsar ma has many interesting things, definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
In Dzogchen, mind and matter exist because of avidya. When there is no more avidyā,for you there is niether mind nor matter.

But to get back to the main point -- for example we talk about "subtle minds". What are subtle minds, what makes them subtle? The reduced frequency of spanda, pulsation, movement of the vāyu in the body. When the vāyu moves, concepts arise -- no movement, no concepts. No concepts, nothing really we can all mind at all. When the vāyu moves very little, then we call that "a subtle mind". Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse -- apart from that fact that as a bodhisattva moves through the paths and stages the physical body they appropriate becomes ever more refined and thus the movement of vāyu becomes ever more subtle and unobstructed, especially after the eighth bhumi. But this is a very external approach, taking a long time.

N

adinatha said:
This is mind/subtle mind in the impure sense or in the mind/nature of mind dichotomy.

Malcolm wrote:
Mind is always impure, from a Dzogchen point of view, in fact. This is why there are Dzogchen criticisms of the nine yanas.


adinatha said:
But the view is all namthog are dharmakaya

Malcolm wrote:
If you think concepts are dharmakāya, your practice is screwed before it has even begun.

In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is bodhicitta.

chos dbying mdzod



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 6:49 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
I tried many times to get in the habit of drinking a little red wine during meals. It's excellent for one's health. The problem is that when I drink the good stuff, I get lazy as hell and don't feel like working. Portugal has an excellent whine, by the way. Usually I end up drinking a glass or two when I have dinner with my parents. And I really like it, accompanying food. But at my place, and since my wife doesn't drink (because of the flavor), I end up drinking zilch. And this is not the best thing for my health. I remember doctors saying when my grandfather died, (stroke due to arteriosclerosis) that if he drank a little his life could have been longer. Spirits only produce the dilation of blood vessels, but red wine has twice the effect and is filled with anti oxidants. If one doesn't have the precept, a glass of red wine a meal is a favor one does to his health. This is why I would like to gain such habit, but I'm not seeing it happening. Not that I don't like it, but I don't like the numbness I feel mixed with having to work or whatever. Nice at a dinner at the weekends, but not everyday...
Of course there are people who drink too much. It's a real problem, mostly when they decide to drive afterwards.
I think people should take a vow if they fear not being able to hold the drink. So they take a vow: I'll never drink, and stick to it. But if people can perfectly moderate their intake, why the need of a vow? Is it something symbolic? I mean, they can always take the vow, but is there such need? Why would one impose such a thing to oneself? There may come a time at a wedding or something and one will have to refuse a harmless cup of champagne, risking offending others, because of a vow that could be unnecessary right from the start. I think we should only take vows if we feel there's the absolute need. Otherwise we just act wisely, no vows needed.


Malcolm wrote:
There is a bias in the Buddhist tradition that the merit of an act is reinforced if connected with a vow.

But vows are just something we decide to follow or not. There is no magical force in a vow. It is an intention, that is all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: What are the contents of this?
Content:
Enochian said:
http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh100/dragon_sutra/html/page_en_01.html


namely the Rgyud (esoteric teachings) part


Malcolm wrote:
It is just a bkengyur is fancing calligraphy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
conebeckham said:
I assume the Heruka Gyalpo Tantra is included in the Nyingma GyuBum, and is part of the Kama Transmission....anyone????


Malcolm wrote:
The root tantra is a terma, there are many terma tantras in the Nyingma Gyudbum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2011 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
tamdrin said:
I thought it was just that the Buddha's penis isn't circumsized..  nothing more than that.


Malcolm wrote:
Nobody's penis was circumsized in ancient India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
...This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.

adinatha said:
And this is not mere speculation, because...?


Malcolm wrote:
Because Guhyasamaja and Vajrasattva were not extant in 200 CE.

Not only this but the Bodhicittavivarana mention the ālayavijñana and the three natures. AFAIK, it is unlikely that Sandhinirmocana was fully composed until the 3rd Century CE, the Lanka is definitely post-Nāgārjuna, and the Maitreya Chapter in the PP sutras was a later Yogacara interpolation.

The author of the Bodhicitta Vivarana was the disciple of Saraha. In the Sakya version of sahaja-mahāmudra, this text and one of the dohas of Saraha (which one I forget) are critical commentaries. So from a Sakya POV, the Sahaja-Mahāmudra lineage of Saraha and NāgaArjuna is very connected with Guhyasamaja.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
adinatha said:
So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa.

Malcolm wrote:
Chestun Senge Wangchug, Khyentse Wangpo, Longchenpa, many others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
adinatha said:
So which masters exactly manifested full and complete buddhahood not at death but in life? As far as I can tell it was Tilopa, Naropa and Milarepa. I'm not sure about Marpa. I'm not sure about Gampopa or Phagmo Drupa, but Drikung people say Jigten Sumgon manifested the topknot, the swirly eyebrow, the penis in the sheath and was a fully realized buddha after he overcame leprosy with his bodhichitta meditation. What they don't say is that they have methods for doing the same thing. Anyone who manifests buddhahood in life, according to them, is because of past life karma, being a bodhisattva in a previous life, and all that.

On the Dzogchen side, Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava were born nirmanakayas. The rest manifested buddhahood at death. If anyone can correct me here that would be delightful.


Malcolm wrote:
Countless Dzogchen masters realized full awakening in this body.

Rongzom states that the atiyoga path is so swift, that these relative signs manifested by Sapan, etc., don't appear on the body, but when the shell of the body breaks at death, these fully developed qualities are evident at that time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yogacara, sutras and tantras share the same view, that matter and consciousness are one thing, mind.
This may be true of sngags gsar ma, and certainly this is how Khyentse Wangchuck seeks to the resolve the issue (unsatisfactorily in my mind) in his commentary on the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.

adinatha said:
The one vehicle approach is very prevalent in Jigten Sumgon's Gongchig. Kagyu people herald this work as representative of all Kagyu lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
The one vehicle view does not imply that all yanas have the same intention.

The one vehicle approach is just a kind of Mahāyāna triumphalism that asserts the ultimate goal of all buddhist paths is  true perfect full awakening as conceived in Mahāyāna.

Also Sakya heralds the ekayāna, but this does not mean, for example, that hinayāna vows have the same intention as Mahāyāna vows and so on and so forth. I understand that Drikungpa may feel differently about this.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you don't mind my asking, who is your teacher?

adinatha said:
I went to answer this yesterday, but then the thread was frozen. I took it as a sign. I do have teachers and retreat, but I'm thinking it's better to keep it mum for now. I didn't want you to think I was avoiding this question.

Malcolm wrote:
That's nonsense.

It is good to know who one is talking to.

Internet anonymity is bullshit in Buddhist forums.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
In Dzogchen, mind and matter are regarded as seamlessly welded, not that mind has primacy over matter. Dzogchen texts even go so far as to reject the formless realm as truly formless.

This is why for example the Khandro Nyinthig states very clearly "Sometimes we say "citta", sometimes "vāyu",but the meaning is the same."Vāyu is just the element of air i.e. motility present in matter. This also accounts for rebirth. In the Guhyasamaja, for example, the ālayavijñāna is wedded to the mahāprāṇavāyu -- this union allows rebirth to happen.

Mind and matter are inseparable from a tantric point of view. Your view reduces the tantric view of mind and matter to the level of sūtra, in my opinion. I take the unpopular stance (according to standard Tibetan orthodoxy ala Sapan, et al) that the view of tantra regarding these kinds of issues is superior in every respect to that of sūtra, and Dzogchen even more so than tantra. The view and practice of tantra and Dzogchen has been crippled in Tibetan discourse by a need to justify everything according to sūtra.

N

adinatha said:
This is a method wisdom thing. Sometimes we say "citta" and sometimes we say "vayu" is saying that wind and mind is wind-mind. So the motility of air is the motility of consciousness. Inseparability and unity is a distinction without a difference. For example in rigpa the empty quality, the clarity quality and the energy qualities can be looked at separately, like looking separately at the facets of a gem, but their inseparability means unity, one rigpa. It is often said rigpa has many faces, but all those faces are on one head. So this is a method wisdom thing, because a view like this doesn't mean anything useful unless it is to get a yogi to see something important in samadhi. Your worry about Dzogchen being crippled by sutra must be coming from a standpoint that a method involving channels and winds is depreciated when yogis have an ecumenical view. I'm curious why you think this when the method of Togal depends on direct introduction (and devotion), postures and gazes, and knowledge of channels and winds is really just for the sake of background information to explain why Togal works better than a volitional sadhana involving channels and winds, like tummo. What Togal does par excellence is highlight tsal aspect of rigpa, but that's a highlight, the overall light is rigpa complete. There is also realization that is rigpa everywhere including as mountains, rocks, trees and houses. Maya.  One can either be non-abiding and take a form body or dissolve into dharmata. Finally, everything exhausts into dharmata which is not non-existence. If it is not non-existence, well?...

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, mind and matter exist because of avidya. When there is no more avidyā,for you there is niether mind nor matter.

But to get back to the main point -- for example we talk about "subtle minds". What are subtle minds, what makes them subtle? The reduced frequency of spanda, pulsation, movement of the vāyu in the body. When the vāyu moves, concepts arise -- no movement, no concepts. No concepts, nothing really we can all mind at all. When the vāyu moves very little, then we call that "a subtle mind". Sutra for example, has no methods to reduce the movement of vāyu to such an extent that such "subtle minds" are accessed. In sutra methods, the movements of mind are always coarse -- apart from that fact that as a bodhisattva moves through the paths and stages the physical body they appropriate becomes ever more refined and thus the movement of vāyu becomes ever more subtle and unobstructed, especially after the eighth bhumi. But this is a very external approach, taking a long time.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:


Namdrol said:
As for the rules, I had already reduced my drinking to zero for some time BEFORE taking the precept.  It seemed logical to me to take the precept "formally" (coz, it seems,


Malcolm wrote:
Taking hinayana refuge has three commitments and five vows that are automatically taken. Then one has a choice to follow no vows, and just commitments, two vows, three vows or all vows.

Taking bodhisattva vows converts those vows into the Mahayana vows.

Taking tantric vows converts those in the tantric vows.

Where the lower contradicts the higher, one follows the higher vow.

There there is the principle of refuge according to Dzogchen. In this case, there are no vows in particular, but the person judges for himself what is necessary for his path, what helps it and what hinders it. I.e. taking the essence of refuge as committing to a given path (in this case Dzogchen) and doing what is necessary for achieving the goals of that path and avoiding what is harmful to it. That is something each person must discover for themselves. If it is involves giving up wine and rich food because it is fattening and leads to ill-health, than that is what you do. If it involves drinking a glass of wine and eating rich food because one has a tendency towards vata disturbances, than that is what one does. If it involves taking psych meds to maintain a stable mind, than that is what one does. And of course, because harming others leads to states of bad rebirth, etc., than one avoids actions with true negative consequences. But none of this is based on a vow. It is based on recognition of one's state and the wish to help others recognize their own state.

Now, of course, this does not mean that one does not have vows. Of course one has vows. But vows are not the main point. It is not good to go to one extreme and proclaim "vows are all bullshit" and pretend one is an atiyoga practitioner. It is also not good to take a rigid approach to vows and turn them into a kind of pretty golden cage inside of which you lock yourself.

Not only that, not all buddhas teach vinaya and have a sangha. For example, Sikhin. Sikhin's pratimoksha was simply:

Avoid evil,
do good,
observe your mind
this is the teaching of the buddhas.

So we have to understand the Vinaya, vows and so on, these are something relative. They are not absolutely essential, at least, not in my opinion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
mr. gordo said:
Interesting, thanks.

Due to this lack of the use of nadis, cakras, etc., can we still classify practices that don't possess these characteristics as tantra?  Is it because they require initiation allow us to still classify practices lacking completion stage as tantra?


Malcolm wrote:
Sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


conebeckham said:
Well, what about the completion stage of Yangdak?

Malcolm wrote:
What about it?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Namdrol said:
Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.

mr. gordo said:
Does the Khon Vajrakila not have completion stage with cakras, nadis..etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no real completion stage with characteristics for the Khon Kilaya, AFAIK, apart from Dzogchen. Even if there were one, it would be hard to tell when it entered the practice. Of course there are kilaya tantras that have these things, but from a text critical point of view, their date of composition is difficult to ascertain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Sherab said:
Thought I throw this into the discussion:
Nagarjuna seemed to be saying that mind and matter are inseparable even conventionally, no?  Or was he speaking from an ultimate point of view?

gzung dang 'dzin pa'i ngo bo yis
rnam shes snang ba gang yin pa
rnam shes las ni tha dad par
phyi rol don ni 'ga' yang med

As to the appearance of consciousness under the form of subject and object, [one must realize] that there exists no external object apart from consciousness.

de phyir dngos po'i ngo bor ni
phyi don rnam pa kun tu med
rnam shes so sor snang ba 'di
gzugs kyi rnam par snang bar 'gyur

In no way at all is there an external thing in the mode of an entity.  This particular appearance of consciousness appears under the aspect of form.

ji ltar skye bo sems rmongs pas
sgyu ma smig rgyu dri za yi
grong khyer la sogs mthong ba ltar
de bzhin gzugs sogs snang ba yin

The deluded see illusions, mirages, cities of gandharvas, and so forth. Form manifests in the same way.

bdag tu 'dzin pa bzlog pa'i phyir
phung po khams sogs bstan pa yin
sems tsam po la gnas nas ni
skal chen rnams kyis de yang spangs

The purpose of the [Buddha's] teachings about the skandhas, elements, and so forth is [merely] to dispel the belief in a self.  By establishing [themselves] in pure consciousness the greatly blessed [Bodhisattvas] abandon that as well.

Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavarana, verses 22-25
"Master of Wisdom", Lindtner

Malcolm wrote:
One, this Nāgārjuna is not the Nāgārjuna that wrote the collection of reasonings. According to tradition, the Bodhicittavivarana is a commentary on the Guhyasamaja. This text is quite late. Likely by the same Nāgārjuna that wrote the Pañcakrama.

The view here is Yogachara Madhyamaka, similar to Shantarakshita.

"Pure consciousness" is not a good rendering for sems tsam po (cittamatra) -- i.e. mere mind.

The normative Madhyamaka view re: consciousness would be that a consciousness arises conventionally only if there is an object and an organ meeting. Hence, conventionally speaking, normative Madhyamaka allows for the existence of external phenomena.

So does Dzogchen.

Citta-matra is a method, not a view, in this respect. The view is still madhyamaka.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Namdrol said:
He considers the four yogas of Mahamudra to be Gampopa's unique system developed out of Gampopa's own experience on the basis of sahaja mahamudra.

adinatha said:
That's what Jigten Sumgon says too re Gampopa's own experience. However, that doesn't hold up re Four Yogas because, while Gampopa stated the four yogas in a variety of ways, Mila had a song of four yogas and Saraha has a four yoga-like presentation too. Clearly to me four yogas comes from Saraha and is based on the Hevajra Tantra four moments, four blisses, and all those fours. Basically, based on Gampopa's own experience, he did what Mila told him not to do and that was teach sahaja mahamudra independent of tummo.


Malcolm wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that the Mila song is a later composition?

It is far more likely that the four yogas were adapted from Ratnakarashanti's Madhyamaka-alamkara and its upadesha where four yogas are explicitly taught. Alternately, they were adapted from the four samadhis of Semsde. Adzom Drugpa, when presenting Semsde, actually uses the scheme of the four yogas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:56 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


Enochian said:
Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

Namdrol said:
Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.

adinatha said:
Then the termas which transmit tummo, being post-Hevajra means Guru Padma felt it better these should be revealed after Hevajra? Or it also implies the termas with tummo are Hevajra knock-offs.


Malcolm wrote:
That all depends on whether you are text critical scholar or not, or even care. I think the western scholarly consensus is that channel and nadi theory was borrowed by Nyingmapas from sngags gsar ma tantras, especially Vajramala.

But the dating of Tantric material in India is very problematical, as you know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


adinatha said:
My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.


Namdrol said:
Perhaps, but Yangongpa, writing on sahaja-mahāmudra is critical of 'od gsal and rejects the idea that mahāmudra and ābhāsvarāḥ are synonymous because luminosity lacks appearances.

adinatha said:
I'm not familiar with Yangongpa, but I don't see how anyone gets around inseparability.

Malcolm wrote:
You will have to read Yangong yourself. He is an extremely important Drugpa Kabgyu master who exclaimed "This begger's realization came from Dzogchen" and write one of the defining treatises on Mahamudra and the four yogas of Mahamudra. He considers the four yogas of Mahamudra to be Gampopa's unique system developed out of Gampopa's own experience on the basis of sahaja mahamudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:45 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


Enochian said:
Didn't Nyingmas have tummo before Sarma?

Malcolm wrote:
Tricky question. Tummo appears to have originated in the Hevajra tantra. We have tummo texts ala Krishnacarya in Dunhuang, but these are somewhat late.

The fact is that unless we accept the terma tradition as having probative value for dating practices in Tibet, it is hard to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:29 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


adinatha said:
My feeling is this is Saraha's stand-alone mahamudra as clear light lineage.


Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps, but Yangongpa, writing on sahaja-mahāmudra is critical of 'od gsal and rejects the idea that mahāmudra and ābhāsvarāḥ are synonymous because luminosity lacks appearances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:19 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Namdrol said:
Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N


adinatha said:
That's interesting and makes plenty of sense. What's the deal with his relationship with Marpa? He did consider Marpa his root guru no? It's funny, because Gampopa asked him, hey what's all the fuss about Dzogchen? Gampopa quotes Mila in one of the Kagyu's more cherished teachings of Gampopa, that Dzogchen is for 8th Bhumis and up. Then, that becomes Kagyu dogma.

Malcolm wrote:
There is another place, in Gampopa's advice to Gomchung, where he pretty much eviscerates mahāmudra, dzogchen, and so on in favor of what he terms "tathatā".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:12 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


Namdrol said:
No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.

Enochian said:
Sarma material, of course I agree with that.

But is there anything unique about Sarma material?

Bottomline of Sarma is tummo and karmamudra which is probably present in the Nyingma beforehand, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, we have eleventh century Nyingma masters complaining about all this new-fangled stuff with cakras, and nadis and so on that was a Hindu corruption of Buddhism. They reacted quite negatively to Hevajra, Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara and so on at first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
adinatha said:
For what it's worth... Mila said...


Namdrol said:
"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N


Enochian said:
Well by default they had to be Nyingma, since the other schools didn't exist yet.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not so -- there was a lot of gsar ma material in Tibet when Mila was a youth. He just happened to have had Nyingma masters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:03 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Enochian said:
From what I understand 99% of Milarepa material is made up

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what material. Are all the songs in the Gur 'bum Mila's? Probably not. Are many of them? Yes.

There is an older unexpurgated version of the Gur 'bum. In order to establish which songs are authentic and which are psuedographia or adaptions, a lot of research is needed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
adinatha said:
For what it's worth... Mila said...


Malcolm wrote:
"...stabbed from the front by mahāmudra, stabbed from the back by Dzogchen."

Mila had ten Nyingma masters before he met Marpa.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
conebeckham said:
Oh, I didn't know that story was supposed to pre-date the rule, and was supposed to be the "reason."  Interesting.

I do know that Buddha's "rules" always came from some specific occurance, though.  So, chicken killing and sleeping with women were rules prior to the ban on intoxicants, eh?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, killing animals is a rule requiring expiation, and sexual intercourse is a parajika. So the monk took the only course he could. But it ended badly for him -- since he obviously could not hold his booze.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
conebeckham said:
Milarepa was able to shrink himself down so he could hunker down in a conch shell during a storm or something, as well...right?
And both he and Padampa Sangye were able to balance of stalks of grass......

Would these events have occurred to the vision of mundane sentient beings?  I don't know.  I think we'd need to see citations with regard to those issues you raise, but doctrinally, I've stated what has been asserted.


Malcolm wrote:
You know, that is a silly story. If Milarepa could fit his body in a conch shell, he could certainly keep the rain off by other means.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:


conebeckham said:
But vows are only for those who have taken them, eh?

Malcolm wrote:
There was no rule against consuming intoxicants -- this is the episode that caused the Buddha to issue such an edict.

He issued the edict because he observed some of his disciples behaving like fools when they drank.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:


Namdrol said:
You understand how the rule came about, no? It came about because some fool did something stupid as an ordained bhiksu.

N

Nangwa said:
I would love to hear the story behind this. Is there a reference to a specific drunken bhiksu somewhere?
We usually hear the stories about the great disciples etc. it would be fun to learn more about the foolish ones as well.


Malcolm wrote:
The story runs something like this: there was a monk who was quite handsome and a housewife enamored of him. She trapped him in her house and gave him three choices: kill a chicken, sleep with her, or drink some alcohol.

He thought that perhaps the booze was the best choice-- drank it, lost his shit, slept with the woman, and butchered the chicken too. In some versions, he murdered the woman's husband.

You see, a rule for fools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
Namdrol said:
You understand how the rule came about, no? It came about because some fool did something stupid as an ordained bhiksu.

gregkavarnos said:
It may well be the case that this was the reason the rule was formulated, but to then say that all that abide by the rule are fools that cannot moderate their alcohol intake?

Malcolm wrote:
If you like having a rule that tells you not to drink, then follow it. Just understand why and for whom the rule was composed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:


Enochian said:
ok i see what you are saying.  but is this canonically accurate?

Nangwa said:
As far as I know.
I'm sure someone will hit this thread and give more details than I can  on how the attainments of annutarayoga tantra manifest but I do know that jalu or rainbow body is very specific and only a part of Dzogchen. Its even specific and unique to mengagde.


Malcolm wrote:
One can attain rainbow body through long sde as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Enochian said:
A jalu is nothing other than Sambhogakāya.  Even Rechungpa, Marpa etc. bodies disappeared at death.  Wouldn't you call that jalu?

Malcolm wrote:
A body disappearing does not equal rainbow body. Often, when people realize rainbow body, their bodies just shrink.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
You may be quite wrong about this. For example, it used to be very unhealthy to drink plain water in most places. Why? because there were no waste water treatment plants, etc. Alcoholic beverages were free from the risk of many types of microbes that can cause serious illness. This is the reason primarily for example that no-one in the American colonies ever drank plain water. They would only drink various types of fermented beverages.
Oh, I don't know about that, the American Indians seemed to do pretty well on plain water.  Actually, if I remember my history correctly alcohol was used as a weapon against them by the settlers.

Malcolm wrote:
I said colonies, no?




gregkavarnos said:
The rule against alcohol is a rule for fools that cannot moderate their intake of alcohol.
I'm sorry but that is just BS.

Malcolm wrote:
You understand how the rule came about, no? It came about because some fool did something stupid as an ordained bhiksu.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:



Enochian said:
ok i see what you are saying.  but is this canonically accurate?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It also makes common sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Enochian said:
These guys were not emanations.

They were regular humans like us that worked hard to obtain Sambhogakāya.

There is a contradiction here which is disturbing.


Malcolm wrote:
All Sambhogakāyas have a nirmankāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
adinatha said:
Hey guy. Who made you judge? That's between me and my guru. Understanding stands under ununderstanding.


Enochian said:
Namdrol wasn't judging you.

His point was that it is pointless to use EXPERIENTIAL Dzogchen arguments on an internet discussion forum.

adinatha said:
First off

But experience is all that matters. Poor discussion forums.


Malcolm wrote:
You cannot convey experience on a discussion board. It just does not work. Anyway, you can say anything you like, quote it right out of a hundred texts -- that is all just words.

Ok.. back to the discussion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:


adinatha said:
Well if you say so. I say it's the mark.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no rebirth in reality -- this is why your addition misses the mark of the conversation.

The two truths are not for buddhas, incidentally, they are for sentient beings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:


adinatha said:
Actually takes place? PHAT! I'm saying there are no two truths. Conventional level is not a truth level, but a totally screwed up level. Nothing actually takes place in the totally screwed up fantasy dream, except for mistakes.

Malcolm wrote:
If you suffer from delusion, then you are still beholden to the two truths. It is inescapable.



adinatha said:
You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.
Is that what Longchenpa does in his Ati explanations of the Buddha's maya analogies that appear in all three vehicles? I'm talking about a yogi's cara. I care nothing for a "sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara."

Malcolm wrote:
There is a very big difference between how Dzogchen deals with illusion and the lower vehicles. Nevertheless, call it illusion or call it "relative truth" that is still the plane upon which rebirth occurs. This is why your elevation of this discussion to such heights misses the mark.


adinatha said:
Atiyoga is nonpractice. It is automatic...Atiyogacara is the cara of spontaneous luminosity.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said to the other guy -- these are nice slogans. But I don't know if you really understand what they mean.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa Contradiction that Bothers Me
Content:
Enochian said:
Something that bothers me.

Did Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa have physical bodies after Buddhahood?

If so that contradicts Vajrayana itself.  After Buddhahood is obtained, one should no longer have a physical body.


Malcolm wrote:
If this was the case, there could be no nirmanakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 26th, 2011 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Enochian said:
Adinatha,

Aren't you just saying something that is in every book by the Dalai Lama?

That there is a discrepency between every thoughtform and reality.

adinatha said:
Actually I don't read much Dalai Lama. Again this is description. The Ati guru's pointing out direct perception is beyond explanations, and the samadhi is involuntary, without effort or examination.


Malcolm wrote:
If you don't mind my asking, who is your teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
adinatha said:
This gets to the crux. They exist as magical illusions. Artificial fictional words are blotched onto these deceptions. This is maya. A deception is not a reality at any level. Where is an illusory thing? Nowhere. Only in citt. What makes this more profound than a description of a method is that it relates to the ultimate teaching which is the yogi's direct experience of reality. Even if you want to say they exist at the conventional level, the conventional level the Buddha is talking about here is how things appear in perceptions. Again, citta, maya. What is the final appearance of Togal? Exhaustion of appearances. Of appearances. Maya yoga. The one vehicle.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you must be missing my point -- even in Yogachara, prior to analysis via the three natures, mind and matter are taken as conventionally real. They are also taken as separate and unique. The imputed nature is the triple realm and all external appearances.

adinatha said:
How this relates to rebirth, because pinpointing in the anatomy where rebirth happens is hardly as profound and immediate as the direct experience of rebirth. A yogi doesn't experience a wind.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe your yogis don't.

Anyway, your argument is a little mismatched to what I am talking about. I am not talking about ultimate truth.I am talking about the mechanisms described in Vajrayāna in general for how rebirth actually takes place. That requires, on a conventional level, that mind and matter must be inseparable. Cartesian dualism will not work in this instance.

You are reducing all of this to a sūtrayāna tenet system e.g. yogachara.

I don't happen to think Yogachara is very useful for understanding Dzogchen. That is my opinion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 11:24 PM
Title: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Enochian said:
This is all silly.

Once you distinguish pristine rigpa from sems (mind), the view becomes like a thirsty elephant running to water.  There is no need to argue, judge etc.

All right and wrong views are self-liberated


Malcolm wrote:
These are nice slogans, but I am not certain you really know what they mean (since I don't know you, don't know who your teacher is, etc.).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I am not going to deny the problems associated with food (obesity and anorexia) especially in developed nations, but the comparison is invalid because one needs to eat a certain amount of food in order to support bodily function, whereas one does not need intoxicants in order to survive.


Malcolm wrote:
You may be quite wrong about this. For example, it used to be very unhealthy to drink plain water in most places. Why? because there were no waste water treatment plants, etc. Alcoholic beverages were free from the risk of many types of microbes that can cause serious illness. This is the reason primarily for example that no-one in the American colonies ever drank plain water. They would only drink various types of fermented beverages.

Wine is a food.

But at this point in my practice, I know what is good for me and what is not, and I don't need a rule to tell me what I can eat and drink and what I can't. The rule against alcohol is a rule for fools that cannot moderate their intake of alcohol.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Huseng said:
Namdrol, would you say your position is one of panpsychism?

Namdrol said:
It is a better position than the crypto Saṃkhya that most Buddhists advocate.

But not exactly panpsychism.

Jikan said:
might the world be better off with more emphasis on positions such as the Sautrantika view that (as far as I understand it...) suggests that things really do exist at the conventional level, as an antidote to nihilism?


Malcolm wrote:
The Madhyamaka approach is the accept whatever people accept as conventionally real without analysis, and to disabuse them of notions that contradict either dependent origination or emptiness (i.e. first causes and natures).

Of course, once the conventional is analyzed it is a different story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
adinatha said:
Vyavahāraḥ means conventional.
I'll need you to show me where the Buddha uses this language. I've never seen this in the Sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not been looking for it, this is why.

For example, the Samdhinirmocana sutra discusses conventions (vyavahāraḥ) extensively. Consult the Powers translation, Wisdom of the Buddha, and look up "conventions"in the index and you will find several discussions about what a convention is and how it is related to the three natures of yogacara, etc. This is apropo:

"Gunākara, if it is asked what the imputed characteristic of phenomena might be, [it is that] which is defined as a name or a symbol for the nature or feature of phenomena in order subsequently bestow a convention."

(see pg. 81 for Powers' rendering)

N

(no more book dancing for me today).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Huseng said:
Namdrol, would you say your position is one of panpsychism?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a better position than the crypto Saṃkhya that most Buddhists advocate.

But not exactly panpsychism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
Heruka said:
Mezze night with free flowing ouzo.........


oh boy..what a hangover!

thank goodness the med has warm seas to relax into.

gregkavarnos said:
I'm not in the Mediteranean, I am in the Aegean!

PS Namdrol, I think it is misguided and a little dangerous to compare the use of intoxicants to eating food, ie I don't believe your example is valid.
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https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Malcolm wrote:
There are, in the US, 300,000 deaths annually from Obesity and about 100,000 deaths a year from Alcoholism. Draw your own conclusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
No, it is not a problem at all.

Matter possesses the capacity for intelligence.

Anders Honore said:
Sure, but this can not account for the qualitative experience of consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Qualitative experience of consciousness is mediated by sense organs. No sense organs, no cognitions.



Namdrol said:
Consciousness and matter are inseparable.

You are merely restating the lower Buddhist position regarding substance dualism ala Descarte.

From a tantric perspective, for example, thoughts (citta) are movements of vāyu in the channels of the body.

There is only a contradiction of you regard mind and matter as different in some essential way.

They are not.
Again, you have the same problem as the radical physicalists with such an explanation. You may be able to account for the process in a physical sense, but nevertheless can not account for how this physical process gives rise to, or is, the qualitative experience of something mental.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem is yours merely for framing the question in that way.  There are six dhātus -- earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness. They form a continuum from gross to subtle. But even so called consciousness has the properties of the other five, so it stands to reason that the other five have the properties of consciousness as well. Hence, nāma and rūpa are completely inseparable -- not because "everything is mind" as our friend adinatha would have it, but rather because the six dhātus themselves describe six different fields which are completely intermeshed and interrelated. In other words, the physical universe innately possesses the capacity for intelligence. There is no consciousness at any time, anywhere that is free from matter.




Namdrol said:
I'm not actually restating any sutra position here. This is such a basic philosophical issue of continual relevance in the face of modern science that hasn't produced a satisfactory answer so far, and you're basically trying for a freebie pass on this by re-hashing totally standard failed arguments on this topic under the guise of 'it's nondual man'. What you have advanced so far is no different really to the debunked scientistic claims of "aside from c-fiber stimulation, there is no such phenomena as pain."

Malcolm wrote:
It's different in that it is based on the most subtle Buddhist principles that discuss these things. This point of view that I am enunciating it not physicalism.

Namdrol said:
It still doesn't account for the connection between the epistemic experience of mentality and the physical process this is supposedly the same as. It remain a 'magic' factor here and this isn't changed by going nondual on it without accounting for how it is supposedly so. It is the basic question the philosophical zombie can not ask: If mind is something physical, how is it that my experience is something mental? Claiming it is nondual simply moves the obvious problem of dualist mind-body causation in a lateral and less obvious direction, but it doesn't resolve the problems of it.

Malcolm wrote:
It completely resolves the problem. Matter is intelligent. If it was not, then we would be inert corpses. Assuming that mind and matter are somehow uniquely different in an absolute substantial sense is Cartesian Dualism. In fact, you can either say matter is the gross manifestation of consciousness or that consciousness is the most subtle manifestation of matter, it does not really matter. The sadadhātu has one cause — avidyā. When that cause, avidyā is removed, all six sadadhātus vanish. In the meantime, consciousness is not separable from the pañcamahābhutani. This nature of consciousness argument engaged in by Chalmers, and the physicalists is pretty boring. There is no split between mind and matter -- thinking there is one is a double delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Requesting a rundown on Bön
Content:
Keshin said:
Respected Bönpos,

I would like to know more about Bön's beliefs in a nutshell.

For example, belief in afterlife, nature of the "soul" or True Nature or anything of the sort, if there is a relationship between Dzogchen and Adibuddha, how emptiness is seen, etc.

Is anyone willing to provide such information? I seem to encounter a lot about Bön's historical origins and so on, but not much about its beliefs.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Malcolm wrote:
Bon is very similar to Tibetan Buddhism, in many respects, identical i.e. they have equivalents to Mahāyāna, Vajrayāna, Vinaya. They have bodhicitta, creation stage, completion stage, three kāyas, etc.

They assert however the origin of their teachings are 18,000 years old, with the personage of one Tonpa Shenrab, as he is known in Tibetan. They look for their cultural origin not to ancient Tibetan culture -- which originated more or less in Kongpo and moved west into the Yarlung valley, but rather than ancient culture around Kailash known as Zhang Zhung Kingdom which dominated central Tibet, Western Tibet and surrounding regions for many centuries until 7th century C.E.

You can read a book called "Nine Ways of Bon" for an account of Bon teachings by Snellgrove. You can also check several of Samten Karmey's articles and so on.

You also might check out Drung, De'u and Bon by Professor Namkhai Norbu which presents an alternate view of Bon history and its relationship to Tibetan culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:


Namdrol said:
Nope. Conventionally, Yogacara accepts matter and mind as distinct and separate phenomena.

adinatha said:
Samvrti means "hypocracy, obstructed, occluded" not "conventional."

Malcolm wrote:
Vyavahāraḥ means conventional.


adinatha said:
The Buddha never taught a shared consensus or linguistic reality. He certainly never taught an existent discrete material reality.

Malcolm wrote:
That's quite debatable.

adinatha said:
The Buddha never taught a reality outside of phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed, all phenomena are included in the six elements.

adinatha said:
How things appear is how things appear to the mind only. For the yogi, facticity never goes beyond appearance. This is very well stated by the Buddha in the Third Turning Sutras and the Yogacara taught by Bhagavan. So there is no mind/matter dualism in the Sutrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
There is, at the conventional level.


adinatha said:
For a yogi, consciousness is not a mere potential that emerges from matter. That is the classical western materialist and scientific view.

Malcolm wrote:
It is, in the same sense that scent emerges from a flower. For example, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo writes in his seminal Notes on the Ālaya "Mind and matter bear the same relationship as a scent and a flower."


adinatha said:
Yogacara, sutras and tantras share the same view, that matter and consciousness are one thing, mind.

Malcolm wrote:
This may be true of sngags gsar ma, and certainly this is how Khyentse Wangchuck seeks to the resolve the issue (unsatisfactorily in my mind) in his commentary on the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.

adinatha said:
The issue of vayu is the same. There is no wind apart from movement. There is not fire apart from heat. There is no earth apart from solidity or water from wetness.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed -- yet these are the basic constituents of the rūpaskandha, the aggregate of matter.

adinatha said:
It is how these appear to the senses that makes them elements, not that they are the basic parts of matter.

Malcolm wrote:
Disagree. All material things possess these four qualities in some mix. Take notice, I am not arguing for these as ultimate realities.

adinatha said:
What makes it Yogacara is when in direct yogic perception you see what is most fundamental, pure awareness is at the base, and there are no phenomena there. In post-absorption, phenomena clearly emerge from consciousness and thereby appear in their true form as maya.

Malcolm wrote:
Prior to analyzing phenomena as mind-only, mind and matter are conventionally regarded as a dualism even in Yogacara. Why, because the imputed nature is exactly the conventional world.

Also in standard Madhyamaka, on the conventional level mind and matter are regarded as distinct.

While the annutarayoga tantras move in the direction of dissolving the distinction between mind and matter, the substance dualism in Buddhism is only satisfactorily resolved in Dzogchen (but not by regarding all phenomena as mind-- which is a point of view rejected by Longchenpa  incoherent).

In Dzogchen, mind and matter are regarded as seamlessly welded, not that mind has primacy over matter. Dzogchen texts even go so far as to reject the formless realm as truly formless.

This is why for example the Khandro Nyinthig states very clearly "Sometimes we say "citta", sometimes "vāyu",but the meaning is the same."Vāyu is just the element of air i.e. motility present in matter. This also accounts for rebirth. In the Guhyasamaja, for example, the ālayavijñāna is wedded to the mahāprāṇavāyu -- this union allows rebirth to happen.

Mind and matter are inseparable from a tantric point of view. Your view reduces the tantric view of mind and matter to the level of sūtra, in my opinion. I take the unpopular stance (according to standard Tibetan orthodoxy ala Sapan, et al) that the view of tantra regarding these kinds of issues is superior in every respect to that of sūtra, and Dzogchen even more so than tantra. The view and practice of tantra and Dzogchen has been crippled in Tibetan discourse by a need to justify everything according to sūtra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Anders Honore said:
This doesn't really solve the problem as much as move it to a different sphere. From what you present here, you still have the problem of explaining how something physical, a wind, can produce or translate into something mental. It's the same old issue that gnaws at modern psychology and neuroscience and we still haven't come up with much better than 'it's magic'. Incidentally, immaterialism seems to be the only position that neatly sidesteps this issue. Well, radical physicalism would too if it were even actually imaginable, let alone moderately coherent.

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness and matter are inseparable.

You are merely restating the lower Buddhist position regarding substance dualism ala Descarte.

From a tantric perspective, for example, thoughts (citta) are movements of vāyu in the channels of the body.

There is only a contradiction of you regard mind and matter as different in some essential way.

They are not.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Astus said:
Namdrol,

You say that in Vajrayana they add a third - not known before component, vayu, what makes a dualist view monist? I'm not sure if monism is really a better concept than dualism when both are pretty much substantialist. Also, if dharmas are understood not as ultimate realities but provisional categories of multiform functions within the realm of experience there is neither dualism nor monism.


Namdrol said:
Vāyu is the material element of air (part of the rūpaskandha). Specifically, the mind and the prana vāyu are merged and inseparable.

The Mind/body problem is one that plagues rebirth explanations because Sutrayāna Buddhists are unable to give an account of the medium through which a mind passes from one body to the next. Vajrayāna in general solves that problem through vāyu. Such an account simply does not exist in sutra.

In sutrayāna mind and matter are different substances.

N

Anders Honore said:
This doesn't really solve the problem as much as move it to a different sphere. From what you present here, you still have the problem of explaining how something physical, a wind, can produce or translate into something mental. It's the same old issue that gnaws at modern psychology and neuroscience and we still haven't come up with much better than 'it's magic'. Incidentally, immaterialism seems to be the only position that neatly sidesteps this issue. Well, radical physicalism would too if it were even actually imaginable, let alone moderately coherent.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not a problem at all.

Matter possesses the capacity for intelligence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Astus said:
Namdrol,

You say that in Vajrayana they add a third - not known before component, vayu, what makes a dualist view monist? I'm not sure if monism is really a better concept than dualism when both are pretty much substantialist. Also, if dharmas are understood not as ultimate realities but provisional categories of multiform functions within the realm of experience there is neither dualism nor monism.


Malcolm wrote:
Vāyu is the material element of air (part of the rūpaskandha). Specifically, the mind and the prana vāyu are merged and inseparable.

The Mind/body problem is one that plagues rebirth explanations because Sutrayāna Buddhists are unable to give an account of the medium through which a mind passes from one body to the next. Vajrayāna in general solves that problem through vāyu. Such an account simply does not exist in sutra.

In sutrayāna mind and matter are different substances.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Anders Honore said:
Is this really novel though? Hasn't Yogacara already covered this?


Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Yogacara accepts matter and mind conventionally as distinct and separate phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:


Anders Honore said:
this is a bit 'whoosh' for me (no pun intended). How is sutrayana's bodymind view Cartesian? Or should I ask how it is Cartesian in contrast to Vajrayana?


Malcolm wrote:
Nāma is imagined to have no material causes, as we can see from the above reasoning by Brunholz. In Sutrayāna, mind and matter are regarded as different substances.

Vajrayāna begins to move away from mind/body dualism, and finally in Dzogchen, it is completely abandoned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Akashagarbha Sutra ?
Content:
Namdrol said:
These texts are not so easy to understand if one does not know some Tibetan or Sanskrit even if they are in English translation.

Anders Honore said:
I don't get it? Are such sutras difficult to understand for Tibetans too if they can't read sanskrit?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, without some Sanskrit and a lot of study of general Dharma, these texts are very impenetrable to average Tibetans.


Anders Honore said:
What's the score here? Are practitioners, Western, Tibetan, Chinese and whatever alike, inescapably secluded from these teaching short of learning the lirturgical language? If this is the case, is this not really the fault of the translators?

Malcolm wrote:
One should never expect to be able to pick up a sutra in English, for example, and immediately understand what it means. Of course, it somewhat depends on the sutra. Some sutras have a narrative style that is conducive to relatively easy understanding, like the Saddharmapundarika. But this is not the case with most sutras.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: prayer flags
Content:
Karma Yeshe said:
The Lama's from my Monastery have requested that people save images of the Buddha etc until a Fire Pudga where they can be burned. I would asume that this would hold true for Prayer flags as well.

I would avoid simply disposing of them in the Regular trash.

All The Best


Malcolm wrote:
With all the dharma advertising in this day and age, that is impractical.

I recycle such images if they are paper.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2011 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Perhaps you are not in a position to judge anyone, apart from yourself, that is.

gregkavarnos said:
Perhaps judge is too strong a term.  I would say though, that anybody that has passed through, or is stuck at a certain obstacle can benefit from the advice of somebody that has passed through or has overcome the same obstacle, especially if they ask for the advice.

Maybe you have had the extremely positive karma to have not run into (or have been) a boastful, hypocrite, sycophantic or judgemental Vajrayana practitoner, I personally have not had such karma.  As for not being in the position to judge, well, my job puts me into direct contact with tens of people at a personal level, every week.  After a while you get pretty good at spotting BS.  Maybe this has made me judgemental, or maybe this has just made me perceptive, time will tell!


Malcolm wrote:
99% is a pretty large number.

We only have three states: deluded, partially deluded, and free of delusion.

Which are you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Akashagarbha Sutra ?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Yes,
Basically one must spend years studying in Asia to become fluent in classical and colloquial.


Malcolm wrote:
Colloquial yes, classical, no.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Akashagarbha Sutra ?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Yes and that does most westerners no good, Namdrol .  While there is some hope with the translation work being done over the next 100 years or so, the project 84000- Translating the words of the Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
They can learn Tibetan if they want to.

These texts are not so easy to understand if one does not know some Tibetan or Sanskrit even if they are in English translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you have a sūtrayāna attitude towards the Dharma, all of what you say is perfectly reasonable.

But there are alternatives.

gregkavarnos said:
Of course there are alternatives, I didn't say they were no alternatives and I did not say that the alternatives are invalid.   My statement is in regard to mere posing, or lip-service regarding the options.  I am not judging the practices, I am judging the practitoners.  And since I am one of them (a Vajrayana practitioner), I am also judging myself.


Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps you are not in a position to judge anyone, apart from yourself, that is.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
In my time as a distiller I saw four people, that I knew personally, die slowly and painfully from alcohol related diseases.


Malcolm wrote:
Yup -- and I know a bunch of people who have died and are dying of obesity. That will not stop me from eating food. The principle is to recognize your own capacity.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Will said:
This is simple and clear and the nut of it:
In Buddhism, it is not really a question of just believing or not believing in the law of karma or former and later lifetimes. Rather, if we generally accept the process of cause and effect, we must acknowledge that it does not make sense to arbitrarily exclude some causal phenomena—that is, certain or all of our physical, verbal, and mental actions—from this general principle.
In other words, "karma works during this life, but not before nor after" is an arbitrary & silly argument against rebirth.


Malcolm wrote:
Right negate rebirth, you negate karma. Materialists by definition, since the earliest days of Indian religion, negate karma.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So give me a non-fanatical, non-literal, flacid, non-limiting interpretation of right livelihood (for example).

Nangwa said:
Working with your capacity and conditions.
Working a job or career that does as little harm as possible yet allows you to function in your community and society.
Its not that hard.
An example of a rigid view in my opinion would be to say that a 23 year old dharma practitioner living in America is practicing wrong livelihood if he or she works at a wine shop or something like that. That would be rigid and would not accept the current condition of the individual in question or his or her capacity to work with that condition.


Malcolm wrote:
I worked in a wine shop a few years ago to pick up some extra cash while in school. It was fun.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Akashagarbha Sutra ?
Content:
kirtu said:
Does the Akashagarbha Sutra still exist in Sanskrit, Tibetan or Chinese?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
it's in the Kangyur.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
michaelmcalister said:
With respect, it seems that my counterpoint to Ms. Fox's article is being misrepresented by these responses. If you read my piece, http://www.infinitesmile.org/2011/04/cultivating-a-sloppy-spirituality/, you'll most likely find that I'm arguing for a middle way between rigidity and a sloppy spirituality. If you don't find this to be the case, I'd welcome your critique.

Bows.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Buddhist POV, this is the epitome of sloppy spirituality:

"While his teaching is Zen-inspired, he works to integrate several of the Nondual teachings from the contemplative traditions of Vedanta Hinduism, Christianity, Kabbalah, and Sufiism."

Non-dual (advaya) in Buddhism has a completely different meaning than non-duality (advaitā) in Vedanta, etc. The ein, ein sof and ohr ein sof of Kabbalah is not related to emptiness in Buddhism, but it is theological attempt by Kabbalists to explain ex nihilo creation, etc.

The above biographical statement of yours informs this statement:

"We begin to see that this whole beautiful dance is only ever Spirit seeing itself through us..."

While among Vedantists, Sufis, Kabbalists and so on there may be much to discuss, Buddhists will have little to share with them apart from a shared interest in compassion.

There is no middle way in theistic traditions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: prayer flags
Content:
Keshin said:
Two questions, if people don't mind.


1. How do I hang them up? With like, nails and stuff? I don't want to really use something inappropriate, like nailing them when you aren't supposed to, or bluetacking them or something. I have some just sitting there quietly and I want to use them. I have some mini ones I want to put in the house somewhere, and some huge ones.
2. Where should I hang these average sized ones (there's 30... too many to put in the house short of having them going all the way around a room). Should I hang them outside, even though it rains a lot? (Don't want them damaged)
3. Where can I find this Tibetan calendar?

Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
The function of prayers flags is to harmonize one's local surroundings. Thus, it is necessary to allow them to be hung outside on a strong string or rope between two locations where they will not get caught up in branches.

They are designed to disintegrate. Ideally, one would hang them once a year.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: A teacher's teachings
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
Wow!  Quoting himself to support his view to himself and then commenting postively on his own view!  .


Malcolm wrote:
Don't be so hard on TMingyur.

He is on a quest for some "original Buddhism".

So for him, the Agamas/Nikayas are definitive. He finds them to be something he can verify for himself with ease. That makes him feel comfortable. There is nothing wrong with this.

I personally think his "Dharma language" language is labored and clumsy, and he thinks I am hopelessly ensconced in intellectual views (he's wrong on that point). But otherwise, he is perfectly harmless.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Sutra is sutra. It only can carry one so far.

gregkavarnos said:
To me it seems that it is this this attitude that is the source of the of the Tibetan Buddhists lack of interest in EA Buddhism.

Now why do I choose to use the word attitude instead of the word statement?  Because the statement may actually be true.  I cannot judge its veracity.  But the reality of all I have seen thus far, in terms of the results of practice (not only for myself but for 99% of other TB practitioners) is that the "so far" of sutra based practice is "so far" out of reach for the majority of TB practitioners that it is silly to even begin to judge (and criticise) the practice of other traditions as limited, or merely a step along the path.  We are so far from reaching even that step that we have no right to criticise the EA path (or any other path for that matter).  I severely doubt whether most practitoners have passed the second jhana of meditative concentration, yet we are quick off the mark to condemn the spiritual practice and level of the Arhats.

We say our practice will lead us to the state of Bodhisattva, but most times we use our Bodhisattva Vow to merely justify our incapacity to act within the moral/ethical guidelines established by Theravadra practice.  Then we have the gall to stand on the tip of Mt Meru and condemn the Bodhisattva path when the only Mt Meru most have us have ever seen is the centre of the universe that exists in our underpants!

Oooops... I think I am ranting!

Malcolm wrote:
If you have a sūtrayāna attitude towards the Dharma, all of what you say is perfectly reasonable.

But there are alternatives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Namdrol said:
Not that impressive, IMO.

Also it is a strictly sutrayāna approach.

Somehow, there is this tendency among the Sarma schools to make Sutrayāna the standard by which every thing is measured, even though, for example, the trenchant mind/body dualism of Sutra is discarded in Anuttarayoga tantra, especially in Dzogchen.


Enochian said:
So when Madhyamaka says that the self is imputed upon the aggregates of body and mind, it is unnecessary to speak of mind since the mind is merely a wind in the physical body?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mind, it is simply a function of vāyu. Nāmarūpa is still a fact. Just not in the Cartesian sense imagined by those who adhere to the sūtrayāna view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: Reasons for Rebirth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not that impressive, IMO.

Also it is a strictly sutrayāna approach.

Somehow, there is this tendency among the Sarma schools to make Sutrayāna the standard by which every thing is measured, even though, for example, the trenchant mind/body dualism of Sutra is discarded in Anuttarayoga tantra, especially in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Content:
Anders Honore said:
So Nagarjuna repudiates eternalists in drag, the Sarvastivadins, but is actually an admirer of Pudgavaladin tenets?

It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...


Malcolm wrote:
It has been suggested that Nāgārjuna was monk of this school.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.
Content:
Madeliaette said:
If this is necessary again in this life, would tit need to be from someone of my own lineage, or from anyone suitably qualified in this practice?
(I ask, because there are two people I know (that are both from different lineages to me) that I could approach, but I do not yet know of anyone in my own lineage, as I have only just learned of my former lineage and attempted to make contact with an appropriate center.)


Malcolm wrote:
well, if you receive transmission from ChNN -- than you automatically have transmission for dream yoga.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.
Content:
Madeliaette said:
I began to read a book called 'Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light' by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu yesterday. I have now read the intro & first two chapters. Whilst there is plenty more yet to read, I have already found much material to ponder.

I have been able to enter the 'dream zone' level and participate fully - whilst awake & meditating - for some time, but have had little ability to be aware whilst actually dreaming/sleeping itself – I thought that this book might assist me, as this seemed to be the proper way to practice, rather than whilst awake. I intend to follow the instructions given in chapter two and continue to read onward also - however, I have a question that remains.

Is it suitable/proper practice to use my ability to live and learn in this 'dream zone' whilst awake & meditating until I perfect doing so during sleep?

Before practicing Buddhism, I called it my 'spiritual life zone' and instead of considering myself to be meditating, I assumed I was 'contemplating philosophy' & 'living on a spiritual level' as an escape because real life sucked - since taking up Buddhist practice, I have changed my understandings and activities in this area from 'fun & freedom' to 'learning and understanding' - but I am wondering if I should focus solely on perfecting the 'asleep' dream zone practices, or if it is 'ok' to continue to participate whilst awake?


Malcolm wrote:
Dream yoga is something connected with transmission. So, you need transmission to really practice dream yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 24th, 2011 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Content:
Astus said:
I might be mistaken here but it wasn't Nagarjuna who mentioned that element but Tsongkhapa. Also, it seems quite unnecessary to explain the efficacy of karma. Third, it is not explained in the text itself nor does it sound really convincing how such an element exists.

Malcolm wrote:
It is indeed Nāgārajuna's position, the name of the dharma in question is avipraṇāśa. MMK 17:13-20 explicates this doctrine. Candrakriti clarifies. This is not an invention of Tsongkhapa's. Nāgārjuna affirms in verse 17:20 "The avipraṇāśa of karma is the teaching of the Buddha."

This is the sole place in the MMK where Nāgārjuna actually advances a shravaka position he likes. See Mabja, ppg. 353-359.

As I said, this is originally a Sammitya doctrine. See also Karmasiddhiprakarana, ppg, 87-91 for a translation of Candrakirti's take.

Nevertheless, even though among various shravaka theories that Nagarjuna examines, this is one he apparently likes, still, from a Madhyamaka perspective he finds the idea of this avipraṇāśa unnecessary even though it is a teaching of the Buddha.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: The place of Buddhism in Indian thought
Content:


Namdrol said:
Yoga predates Buddhism.

Enochian said:
No, not the formal Hindu school of yoga founded by Patanjali.  That came after buddhism with heavy buddhist influence.  But of course yoga in general did exist before Buddha.


Namdrol said:
Samkhya predates Buddhism.
Nyaya predates Buddhism.

Enochian said:
Where is the evidence for this?

Malcolm wrote:
Oral tradition. Also the there is a species of Samkhya in the Candoga, at least according to Thanissaro Bhikku.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: prayer flags
Content:
lisehull said:
Hi everyone. My prayer flags are starting to fade dramatically and are looking a bit tired. When does one replace them with newer versions, how does one dispose of the old flags and is there a particular time of the year to do this?

Lise

Malcolm wrote:
You can either leave them up and hang new ones or take down the old and burn them.

Normally, prayers flags are hung on the third day after Tibetan New Year or any other day that is auspicious and indicated according to Tibetan calendar.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: A teacher's teachings
Content:
TMingyur said:
As an amendment:

The above illustrates what I have experienced to be a very reliable approach:
The "gold standard" is the Buddha's teachings in the sutta pitaka. Every teaching that does not have "a correlate" there either has to be handled very very cautiously or - maybe better (safer) in many cases - has to be rejected.
So the basis necessarily has to be one's own experience. Therefore it is very problematic to surrender one's own experience to someone who does not teach "the gold standard" in the first place.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
Good luck with that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: The place of Buddhism in Indian thought
Content:
Enochian said:
Most upanishads came after Buddha

All orthodox schools of hindu philosophy came way AFTER buddhism

patanjali ripped off buddhism. this is the academic consensus


so that link is 100% BS


Malcolm wrote:
Probably not.

Samkhya predates Buddhism.
Vedanta predates Buddhism since the Brihadaryanaka and the Candoga predate the Buddha by three hundred years.
Nyaya predates Buddhism.
Vedic ritualism (Mimamsa) predates Buddhism
Yoga predates Buddhism.

Only Vaisheshika can be plausibly dated after Buddhism.

Now, Puranic religion obviously comes after Buddhism i.e. NIkāya Buddhism, but the elements that informed Puranic religion were already in play. Puranic Hinduism is just a little older than Mahāyāna.

Advaita is a later development.

The formal arrangement of the six darshanas, granted is quite late. It arose at the same time as the four tenet system in Mahāyāna Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Moving on
Content:
TMingyur said:
It is the clinging aggregates (clinging self-referentially to themselves) that manifest as the deluded sub-conceptual identification "I" and "mine" in the context of these process-like phenomena (i.e. the aggregates). Active conceptual imputation thinking "I" and "mine" only is the peak of this sub-conceptual ("intuitive") error.

Malcolm wrote:
You have the cart before the horse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Content:
Astus said:
In "Ocean of Reasoning" (p. 355) Tsongkhapa says in the commentary to MMK 17:14,

"Although all virtuous and nonvirtuous actions cease immediately upon their completion, they are not without effects, because when the karma arises, a nonmental compound called an indestructible element associated with karma arises in the continuum of the agent like a promissory note."

What is this nonmental element associated with karma? It sounds like an abhidharmic teaching, however, from the text it appears to me that Tsongkhapa actually accepts the existence of such an element. Could anyone explain please?


Malcolm wrote:
This is an Abhidharmic concept, form the Sammitya school. It is Nāgārjuna's preferred mechanism for explaining karma and results. Preferred, for example, to the Sautrantika cittaparinama theory, which he (Nāgārjuna) rejects as incoherent.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 23rd, 2011 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:



kirtu said:
Right - which is why Zandog Palri is not meant to really be Madagascar and praying for rebirth in Chamara will not result in rebirth in Madagascar (to extend slightly a debate from a previous forum ....)

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Kirt:

If you pray to be reborn in Shambhala, you will not tale rebirth in Afghanistan either, but that is where the original Shambhala was, thereabouts.

But the four continents mythology is definitely an Indocentric cosmology, and India, not the whole planet, is Jamdudvipa.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Moving on
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
There’s a joke in my country that goes more or less like this:

There was this bloke who craved for ...

TMingyur said:
Craving actually is no joke ... it is the root of all misery ... clinging aggregates are the root of clinging to views and tenets ... from my "personal experience" perspective the Buddha was right.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
No, the root of clinging to views and tenets is the the mistaken imputation of identity. That mistaken imputation is the cause of addiction to the aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:
Namdrol said:
Copper colored mountain and Sukhavati are basically bardo experiences.

Rael said:
Copper coloured mountain is in Africa and it is not a Bardo experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Madagascar, to be precise. But if you go Madagascar, you will never find Zangdog Palri.


Rael said:
The Bardo is place of confusion and fear  for most.It reminds me of heroin withdrawal....except it gets worse instead of better...

Malcolm wrote:
The bardo is the place where medium practitioners attain liberation.


Rael said:
Are you saying that Sukhavati is the ramblings of some mad man....

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is Buddhist heaven for those who want a Buddhist heaven.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
Astus said:
It seems to me, as it appears in the Namkhai Norbu and Chögyam Trungpa quotes, that they take Zen to be only about emptiness and based on prajnaparamita. It is actually a strange interpretation to me since one of the most fundamental tenets of Zen is "mind is Buddha" and it is actually based on tathagatagarbha teachings. Why they still think that Zen is only about emptiness is a mystery to me.


Malcolm wrote:
It is an interpretation based on Chan as it was presented to Tibetans by a number of Chinese masters of the Northern school. There are a few Chan texts authored by Tibetans in Dunhuand corpus. One of them is by Trisong De'utsan.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Metaphysical tendency in Mahayanists
Content:


Namdrol said:
When we talk of the base being the two truths  are we not doing metaphysics?

Tom said:
Nope, we are talking about the difference between undeluded and deluded cognitions. That's all.

Malcolm wrote:
Okay.

It does seems though that even a division based on mind might have some significant ontological implications, for example the two truths being ontologically distinct and even hierarchical. Maybe such implications are superfluous to the Buddhist endeavor, though a lot of fuss seems to be made over them!

- Sorry quote names are wrong - am new to this![/quote]


The two truths are not ontologically distinct because emptiness if not a form of being, and appearances are not either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are three basic Tibetan views of Zen:

A) It is a subitist deviation from the Buddha's teachings (i.e. Hashang's Chan)
b) It is the most profound sutra teaching, but only that.
c) it is Chinese verision of Yogacara (Thukwan)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Metabolic rate
Content:
Huseng said:
Namdrol, in Tibetan Medicine how is metabolic rate viewed? Is it better to have a low or high metabolic rate?

My resting metabolic rate is around 2011 calories per day, but even then I still think I require far less than that. I can put on weight very quickly. I don't really need much food to get by.

Namdrol said:
If you put on weight quickly, this means, from our point of view, your metabolism is low.

N

Huseng said:
Is that generally okay for long-term health?

Malcolm wrote:
Better to encourage your metabolism to be higher. Low metabolism leads to chronic cold diseases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2011 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders
Content:


Inge said:
The ngondro I have started is one from Karma Kagyu. I did the refuge and bodhicitta part for a little while, but have not been able to continue due to lack of faith. Thank you for the tip of the chest feeling and dark moon, I haven't encountered such phenomena.

I also do a daily sadhana practice. Do you think that is a problem?

Generally I experience a lot of resistance to practice, except for reading, and going to teachings and retreats.


Malcolm wrote:
You cannot force faith. But you can grow it.

Faith is just a positive mental factor that brings clarity to your mind. Faith here does not mean blind devotion. It means having confidence in the personal transformation that Dharma practice engenders. Reading is part of that Dharma practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Metabolic rate
Content:
Huseng said:
Namdrol, in Tibetan Medicine how is metabolic rate viewed? Is it better to have a low or high metabolic rate?

My resting metabolic rate is around 2011 calories per day, but even then I still think I require far less than that. I can put on weight very quickly. I don't really need much food to get by.

Malcolm wrote:
If you put on weight quickly, this means, from our point of view, your metabolism is low.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:


Namdrol said:
As physical places one can take rebirth in? Not really.

As wisdom displays of Amitabha, etc. That's different.

mr. gordo said:
Hmmm....I'm not sure I understand.  Is there a difference between the two?  I always figured they were places created by Guru P or Amitabha, and that they were wisdom displays.  I think I'm not understanding how you're using the term "wisdom display"


Malcolm wrote:
Copper colored mountain and Sukhavati are basically bardo experiences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:
Namdrol said:
Just what i said. Pure lands are not interesting to me. All of space is a pure land, for those who know how to see.

mr. gordo said:
Hi Namdrol,

Do you believe that Pure Lands like P's Copper Mountain, or Sukhavati exist?  Or do you take these as metaphors for a mind purified of afflictions like the mind only school?

Malcolm wrote:
As physical places one can take rebirth in? Not really.

As wisdom displays of Amitabha, etc. That's different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: Moving on
Content:
Will said:
TM: I will be loosing all the help
Before you move on to Dhamma Wheel, please try to remember, and this applies to all who read this:

"Loosing" might mean making something more loose, it does not mean "losing" something that was once not lost.

One of Will's pet peeves.

TMingyur said:
Oh thank you for hinting at the typo.

Actually what I meant was "losing".

Tibetan buddhism has helped me very much. But if I ever get involved with tibetan buddhism again I will be losing all the help I have received.


Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
You should probably drop to the Tibetan nym.

Go with something more Prakrit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Metaphysical tendency in Mahayanists
Content:


Tom said:
...your state as a sentient being...
A metaphysical topic, no? Are you suggesting a more phenomenological perspective?

When we talk of the base being the two truths  are we not doing metaphysics?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, we are talking about the difference between undeluded and deluded cognitions. That's all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 10:45 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:



Sherab said:
Ever considered the possibility that the suttas/sutras do indeed point to buddhahood being non-dependent on mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Pointing is one thing, taking one there directly is another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 10:43 AM
Title: Re: Metaphysical tendency in Mahayanists
Content:
Tom said:
When we talk about the intricacies of svabhava etc. are we not discussing metaphysics? and when we talk about the ignorance that leads to suffering are we not discussing epistemology? If the Buddhist description of the problem of suffering and its cause is so involved with metaphysics and epistemology how is it that its solution avoids it? I am open to answers.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism is about knowing your state as a sentient being, doing something about it, and freeing oneself. No svabhāvas need apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Metaphysical tendency in Mahayanists
Content:


conebeckham said:
Mahayana, and in my opinion, all Buddhism, tend toward metaphysics, as they must.

Malcolm wrote:
I  could not disagree more. Buddhism is graveyard of mysticism and of metaphysics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:


Rael said:
but in that moment when the teacher is teaching and the student is absorbing ...mind to mind....is there still not a hierarchy...

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the teacher and depends on the student.

Teachers have only one job -- lead students to liberation. If they cannot do that, they are stealing people's precious human birth.

Most of the hierarchy in Buddhism comes from Asian cultural forms. It can be dispensed with in the modern world.

Of course, we need to respect people and their choices -- so if someone is keen on a super-hierarchical school like Shambhala International, we should respect their choice. Of course if I am going to see some traditional Asian teacher, I will do prostrations out of respect. When you have respect, you can't have pride. Respect is the real prostration. When ever you respect someone, then you are prostrating to them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Mandalas and your place in them/ Namdrol inspired thread
Content:
Rael said:
from another thread....please explain....



Namdrol said:
I have no interest in infantile fantasies like pure lands.

N

Rael said:
yikes a roonie...talk about changing me pardigms....

this has to go to that thread....

and thanks for this N

r

Malcolm wrote:
Just what i said. Pure lands are not interesting to me. All of space is a pure land, for those who know how to see.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
samsaric Schooling is a lose term i used when thinking about the entire purpose to samsara..


Malcolm wrote:
I understand. But samsara has no meaning. But if you have Dharma, then maybe samsara is meaningful.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:



Rael said:
i did mention that it was convention to view the student teacher relationship in the pure land...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you did,
but i still insist your wish can't happen in this mundane world of suffering...

the nature of the beast on this plane of existence is not going to evolve to that point...

I don't agree. We are not merely the sum of our biology.

Rael said:
the entire purpose for samsaric schooling would be lost....

Malcolm wrote:
There is no purpose to samsaric schooling.

Rael said:
you can't have an entire world of enlightened beings living on an organic planet....lol.....


Malcolm wrote:
I am not talking about a planet of enlightened beings. I am talking about a planet of balanced beings. Two different things altogether.


Rael said:
i don't even think Karmicly  it is possible to have an earth like pure land...the Alchemy is all off....lol

Malcolm wrote:
I have no interest in infantile fantasies like pure lands.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Rael said:
Well when i enter a Buddha's mandala, or the Dalai Lama  visits Toronto , i know my place in both....

there is a hierarchy in the pure lands as well....you have teacher and student relationships....

Malcolm wrote:
That is relative. Students are not lower than masters, masters are not higher than students. The primordial state of a master is no different than that primordial state of a student.

Rael said:
i realize i'm looking at this from a conventionalist view...but we are talking anarchy in the real world we live in and i'm saying there can be no true anarchy as well as real communism...

Malcolm wrote:
I have higher expectations of human potential than to think that we forever are going to be locked into primate hierarchical stations.


Rael said:
i like, no, make that adore your flag and what it stands for....but it can't happen....except in a persons mind set and how they view their place in society....

Malcolm wrote:
All you have to do is speak truth to power while respecting wisdom. If you can do that, then you are beyond hierarchy of every kind.


Rael said:
and yes it suits my Buddhist mind set as well namdrol

Malcolm wrote:
The label anarchist does not interest me. Establishing a world where there is an organic natural interrelated web in which all parts that make the whole are given the room to flourish, human and non-human, that is what I see. This is not anarchism, green or otherwise. It is not utopian -- it is our eventual future if we as a species survive long enough to socially evolve beyond our present primate instinct social order. At our worst, we are just naked chimps with guns.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Rael said:
:

large corporations=large governments

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the massive wealth accumulations in US when the West was opened in the 19th century also gave rise to a need for a larger bureaucracy hence, the massive expansion of the federal government between 1870-1914.

Rael said:
why are you ignoring me....is this some i know something you don't thing so i will stay quiet and appear clever...

Malcolm wrote:
No, please restate the question.

Thanks,

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
ZenLem said:
Hey guys, just some spiritual issues, basically the first article argues for not adhering to strict spiritual practice, while the second sort of pokes holes in that as missing the point

Cultivating a sloppy spirituality
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meimei-fox/the-life-out-loud-where-s_b_844670.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The response
http://www.infinitesmile.org/2011/04/cultivating-a-sloppy-spirituality/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally, it sounds like a middle way issue. I personally know the difference between enjoyment and addiction, or at least I hope I do. Anyway, something to chew on.


Namdrol said:
They both miss the point completely and neither of them are buddhists.

N

ZenLem said:
Alright, you gotta elaborate on this one.


Malcolm wrote:
One is a spiritual dilettante and the other is into "Spirit" whatever that is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 21st, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Namdrol said:
The problem is that corporations have gotten so large that only a large government can control them. However, when corporations and govt. get in bed in the manner that they have in this country, then everyone loses.

The solution to big gvt. is to severely limit corporate growth.

N


Rael said:
Corporations prefer smaller governments....less governance so they can rape more....

Now that would appear to be the reason for larger governments but it is not...

Malcolm wrote:
As you can see, the history of large governments has paced the rise of large corporations. There is a corollary if not a direct cause and effect.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Pure Land, Chan, and Tientai are sutrayana.

Shingon is Vajrayana up to yogatantra.

Jikan said:
True doctrinally.  Although you'll find the same level of esoteric practice in Tendai (the stream from Jikaku Daishi basically) as in Shingon.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that Tendai subordinates Mikyo to sutra exegesis. Shingon is a pure Vajrayana school.

Tendai is more like Gelug. Shingon is more like Sakya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Then there is the other issue e.g. we are convinced that the highest Buddhist teachings exist in Tibetan Buddhism and nowhere else.

Sherab said:
Playing the devil's advocate:

For the most spiritually gifted, the lowest teaching is sufficient to bring them to Buddhahood.  For the most spiritually-challenged, even the highest teachings could not budge them.

Lowest teaching has the least explanation of the ultimate truth and least of method to reach there.  So only the spiritually gifted could use it as a vehicle to Buddhahood.  The highest teaching has the most detailed explanation of the ultimate truth and the most methods to reach there.  So it is vehicle for the least spiritually endowed.

Spiritual triumphantalists, beware.

Malcolm wrote:
If buddhahood depended on mind, this might be true. But since buddhahood is not dependent on mind...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:
TMingyur said:
Just try and experience for yourself whether it is wholesome or unwholsome to practice accordingly.

gregkavarnos said:
A little difficult when one considers that most of us here are steeped in ignorance, it would be better to report feelings/experiences to a teacher with some level of experience and realisation.

TMingyur said:
Sounds strange that someone would not be in a position to assess their own feelings and well-being.
But there are all kinds of people ... who knows.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
As you know there are four basic mistakes that people make:

mistaking the painful for pleasure;
the impermanent for permanence;
suffering for happiness,
with lacks identity for identity.

So it is no surprise that ordinary people are unable to assess their own feelings and well-being. We have much evidence that they cannot.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Namdrol said:
The problem these days is corporate Capitalism and their incessant need for growth.

The problem is not small scale capitalism of the kind described by Adam Smith. Smith would regard modern corporate Capitalism with horror, as would Jefferson, and so on.

Heruka said:
I agree, im much more in favor of decenteralization of federal government reach, and much more interested in local co-ops, local trade and barter, local farm produce and states trading with each other, the amish have managed quite well, but unfortunatly the federal government is encroaching on that too.

I mean you can go to jail for selling raw unpasterized milk, or even raw bees honey with all its goodies and benefits to someone who wishes to buy it. Free market has really gotten squashed under the wheels of industry.


remember, a government big enough to give you everything you need, is big enough to take everything you have.

i think we are all interested in social justice to one shade or another, but just not socialism as presented.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem is that corporations have gotten so large that only a large government can control them. However, when corporations and govt. get in bed in the manner that they have in this country, then everyone loses.

The solution to big gvt. is to severely limit corporate growth.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Enochian said:
This guy wants to establish a socialist utopia know as sharia throughout the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD4OeSoi6xs " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZCDO5Jp6ic " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently everyone will live in peace sharing all resources if you watch all his interviews on youtube.


Malcolm wrote:
Islam is one type of utopian vision. Shambhala is another.

I don't have much patience for either of them.

The problem these days is corporate Capitalism and their incessant need for growth.

The problem is not small scale capitalism of the kind described by Adam Smith. Smith would regard modern corporate Capitalism with horror, as would Jefferson, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:33 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
conebeckham said:
...or a later bedtime.

Do you think that lone spot of light in the North is Kim Jong Il's house?



Malcolm wrote:
Probably the security lights.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Korea at night:



North = Communist.

South = Capitalist.

Any questions?

http://www.peacethroughwealth.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. South Korea has a much larger carbon footprint than the north.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Some Facts (from Wiki):
growth...


Malcolm wrote:
This is just a capitalist trap, as you know.

The capitalist growth fetish is destroying the world.

what we need is a zero growth steady state economy, world-wide.

http://limitstogrowth.net/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: New Century Foundation / Lama Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
it's obviously bullshit. Shiva garuda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: New Century Foundation / Lama Norbu
Content:
Jikan said:
My wife noticed a flier for an event featuring this fellow at a local yoga center.

http://www.ncfinternational.org/norbu.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's going on here?

At first glace this appears to be a case of an authentically-trained Geshe "going Galt" and taking the spiritual alternative route.  Or... ?  I don't get it and I don't want to be presumptuous.


Malcolm wrote:
Who knows if this guy is really a geshe.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Will said:
I have yet to find online Namkhai Norbu's "Dzogchen and Zen" booklet.  If anyone knows where it (a PDF?) might be or can summarize his points about the differences or similarities, that would be helpful.


Namdrol said:
It is a summary of Nubchen Sangye Yeshes position on the gradual path, Chan, Mahayoga and Dzogchen.

N

Will said:
So Chan is Dzogchen lite? or a needed (or helpful) preliminary to DZ?


Malcolm wrote:
Any meditation one does will be useful as a preliminary to Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: north/east in tibetan
Content:
Namdrol said:
Great. The rest is delusion.

devilyoudont said:
Thanks.

PS. Can't you give me any hints at all?

PPS. It is completely metaphorical, you know, so "delusion" may not be the word for it. I'm trying to convey my meditative experiences in this language, in which I have no training.

PPS. So yes, the end result may indeed be delusional when other beings read it.

PPPS. But would it be out of the question to read it with a bit of charity (by trying to see it from my non-standard, ignorant point of view) and correcting some of the most glaring misconceptions?

PPPPS. I can see you're still here, so maybe you're working on it. Grind me well and good. Thanks again!


Malcolm wrote:
Well, get some training. At least attend some webcasts with Norbu Rinpoche and receive the transmission for cho practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
My mistake, there are six we have access to:

One commentary on sgra thal gyur
One on mu tig phreng ba
One on yi ge med pa
One of kun tu bzang po klong drug
One on the sgron ma 'bar ba
One on the sku gdung 'bar ba

They are all attributed to Vimalamitra.

Eleven remain missing.

Pero said:
Oh so no Rigpa Rangshar commentary? Wow I could swear that I once read there is a commentary. Perhaps I read there was a commentary and my memory mixed things up.


Malcolm wrote:
There was such a commentary. It is still missing. Perhaps it will turn up in the library of Drepung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
So it is possible to restrict one's knowledge to just the essentials. But those who have the time and energy should learn a lot more.

Pero said:
A lot more doesn't necessarily mean learn EA Buddhism. I don't know why you think it should. Tibetan Buddhism is vast. A life time is perhaps not sufficient to learn everything there is in it (nor is it necessary), so why would people bother learning other forms of Buddhism? It's a different matter if you have some intellectual curiosity or some other special reason but in general I think there is no need. Better to study one thing and study that well.

Huseng said:
Bodhisattvas, at least in East Asia, vow to study all dharma gates.


Malcolm wrote:
gcig shes kun drol, my friend, "knowing one, all are liberated".

And you better get hopping on your studies of Anuttarayoga tantra, and the nyingma inner tantras. Time is passing!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: north/east in tibetan
Content:
devilyoudont said:
A moment by moment Chod practice.

I reaffirm my bodhicitta aim.


Malcolm wrote:
Great. The rest is delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
interesting choice....

worthy of my approval...lol....how are you on arrogance and ego...lol....

it can't be though....

for the life of me i can't vision a world with no hierarchical form.....

even the Mandala of a Buddha has hierarchy... yes no....

it would be interesting to see your comment on that...

it might even change a paradigm or two around here...



as an added thought;

the flag and what it implies is best served as a personal view to be taken so as to not be fooled into the propaganda and it's wrath as displayed by the eunichian poster.....


Namdrol said:
There is no hierarchy in a mandala, only a center and a periphery. But all peripheries can move to the center, and all centers can move to the periphery.

Rael said:
was thinking more in terms of the dakinnis and the lesser and greater gods and different characters invovled in...

Malcolm wrote:
All functions of one complex. Nothing is high, nothing is low.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Which five early commentaries are you referring to Namdrol?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
My mistake, there are six we have access to:

One commentary on sgra thal gyur
One on mu tig phreng ba
One on yi ge med pa
One of kun tu bzang po klong drug
One on the sgron ma 'bar ba
One on the sku gdung 'bar ba

They are all attributed to Vimalamitra.

Eleven remain missing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
I was fortunate to have attending Tulku Nyima Gyaltsen Rinpoche's transmission (lung) of the Nyingthig Yabzhi.  It took 15 days.  I guess I am authorized to read those texts now...


Namdrol said:
Yes, you are.


Malcolm wrote:
but you would also be authorized to read them if you had attended the Yashi empowerments of Kunzang Dechen Lingpa where he gave the pelung wang for the whole cycle at the end of the empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
I was fortunate to have attending Tulku Nyima Gyaltsen Rinpoche's transmission (lung) of the Nyingthig Yabzhi.  It took 15 days.  I guess I am authorized to read those texts now...


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
interesting choice....

worthy of my approval...lol....how are you on arrogance and ego...lol....

it can't be though....

for the life of me i can't vision a world with no hierarchical form.....

even the Mandala of a Buddha has hierarchy... yes no....

it would be interesting to see your comment on that...

it might even change a paradigm or two around here...



as an added thought;

the flag and what it implies is best served as a personal view to be taken so as to not be fooled into the propaganda and it's wrath as displayed by the eunichian poster.....

Malcolm wrote:
There is no hierarchy in a mandala, only a center and a periphery. But all peripheries can move to the center, and all centers can move to the periphery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Khandro Nyinthig is also very interesting.

Pero said:
I don't doubt that, it's just that almost since the beginning I wanted to receive and read the root tantras in general. Also I think root texts are important, terma is cool and all but it comes from root texts.

[

Malcolm wrote:
First off, the seventeen tantras are termas themselves.

Secondly, termas like Vima Nyinthig, Khandro Nyinthig, and Gongpa Zangthal, etc., are indispensable for understanding the material in the tantras.

However, that has changed a little now that we have five early commmentaries on major Dzogchen tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Will said:
I have yet to find online Namkhai Norbu's "Dzogchen and Zen" booklet.  If anyone knows where it (a PDF?) might be or can summarize his points about the differences or similarities, that would be helpful.


Malcolm wrote:
It is a summary of Nubchen Sangye Yeshes position on the gradual path, Chan, Mahayoga and Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
and yes it was Namdrol's comment that got me to thinking....but i ask you Namdrol....why the waffle....


Malcolm wrote:
Waffle about what? Not sure what you mean.

Socialism was an important movement, but is not relevant anymore.

Why? Because socialism is too human-centric. The distinctions between Marxist, Reformist and Utopian forms of socialism are academic. They are no longer relevant.

The older I get the more I am moving towards a sort of anarcho-green position or left-biocentrism. I think this political form is the most consistent with Buddhist principles and especially with Dzogchen, which has always been anti-hierarchical.

Rocking the green and black, baby!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
USofA 's AAA rating has been considered strongly lately to be pushed down to AA....within 2 years is the estimate for those who do that sort of thing....it was actually on the news yesterday


Enochian said:
Right but it hasn't been pushed down yet, and probably won't.  America is still AAA.

There is a reason why everyone in the world heavily invests in American stock exchanges.

Malcolm wrote:
S&P switched the US's rating yesterday to negative:

"NEW YORK (Standard & Poor's) April 18, 2011--Standard & Poor's Ratings
Services said today that it affirmed its 'AAA' long-term and 'A-1+' short-term
sovereign credit ratings on the U.S. Standard & Poor's also said that it
revised its outlook on the long-term rating of the U.S. sovereign to negative
from stable."

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245302886884 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Riwo Sang Chod
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Which tradition?

heart said:
It is under offerings http://monlam.org/moreprayers.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is Kagyu and Nyingma tradition.

In the sang I do it is quite clear that the reason to do it is to benefit sentient beings and making offerings to the Buddhas and three roots. In general that is the point with all Vajrayana rituals it seems to me.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what sang. The real purpose of sang is to purify. That is what the word "bsangs" actually means -- to cleanse. In this case we are cleansing with smoke.

Many sangs are quite specific, restricted to one location, one local guardian and so on. General sangs offerings, like Riwo Sangcho, are purification rites focused on the four guests.

The original sang offering left by Padmsambhava in Tibet i.e. Kama tradition, is the famous Nol sangs i.e. "purifying pollution". Lamas frequently combine this with Riwo Sangcho for a more full effect.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
Kyosan,

I don't think they should convert to any EA school, that's not really the question I think. But rather the interest in other forms of Buddhism. For instance I've heard about a plan that they translated the Pali Canon to Tibetan. That's great. However, I don't see Tibetan teachers addressing the issue of other Buddhist schools outside of the Tibetan ones. They are good to discuss Hinayana, Mahayana, Kagyu, Sakya, etc. but no mention of Pure Land, Chan, Tiantai or Shingon. Maybe they haven't heard about them? I doubt that, especially as many know English and even Chinese. To give an example, it is not expected at all from a Nyingma master to become a Gelug or Kagyu lama but definitely he should be somewhat familiar with their teachings, especially when they do some comparisons between the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Pure Land, Chan, and Tientai are sutrayana.

Shingon is Vajrayana up to yogatantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Anders Honore said:
Tibetan Buddhism strikes me as more doctrinally fixed/focused than east-Asian Buddhism. And thus, is probably more reluctant to absorb new input to its doctrinal outlook. And probably doubly so considering such input is informed by the lower sutrayana, itself a fixed lens for analysis that in many ways fails to capture the intricacies of east-Asian Mahayana. And in many cases, Indian Mahayana too, for that matter.

Chinese Mahayana is in many ways a more diffuse entity than Tibetan Buddhism and thus probably more receptive to new influences, of which Tibetan Buddhism present a wealth of to draw from.


Malcolm wrote:
Sutra is sutra. It only can carry one so far.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Because India is the source of Buddhism. Not only that, Tibetan historical consciousness did not allow for an "eighth century Indian Buddhism". Of course they were aware that Mahayana and Vajrayana texts were not present from the beginning, but they still trace everything more or less back to the Buddha.

Huseng said:
Right. However, these sentiments still seem to largely exist in the Tibetan Buddhist community and have been transferred to non-Tibetan practitioners of TB.


Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Even if unwarranted. Then there is the other issue e.g. we are convinced that the highest Buddhist teachings exist in Tibetan Buddhism and nowhere else.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: SkAB KRGYAD
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Can anybody here from you elucidate the Nyingma text "Kabje" (sKab krgayd) ?

Am interested too about the contents of this text.

Thanks in advance for your attentiom

Kalden Yungdrung


Namdrol said:
Are you certain of the spelling?

kalden yungdrung said:
Yes i am it is also a wellknown text within the Bon tradition and this would in Bon stem from Drenpa Namkha

KY

Malcolm wrote:
The reason I ask is that there is this is in incorrect spelling krgyad -- k is never used as a prefix letter. Do you mean to spell brgyad i.e. "eight"? IN which case the translation would be "eight delays" or something like that.

I think you must mean bka' brgyad i.e. the eight transmissions i.e. Yamantaka, Hayagriva, Heruka, Amritakundali, Kilaya, Matarah, etc. These are the eight sadhana cycles belonging to anuyoga system (according to Longchenpa) brought by Guru Padmasambhava to Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
Why is it that Tibetan Buddhists are hardly ever care about East Asian Buddhism?

Namdrol said:
Because it does not come from India to Tibet directly. In the Tibetan point of view, Chinese Buddhism was a second-hand Buddhism. Buddhism, yes, but not as pure as Buddhism Tibetans were receiving directly from Indian Panditas.

N

Huseng said:
I wonder, though, why is 8th century-onward Indian Buddhism perceived as more legitimate or pure than Chinese Buddhism?

Tian'tai, Huayan and Chan were all legitimate developments of Buddhadharma. They might not have been Indian, but then why would teachers from India be perceived as purer than their neighbours to the east? Why was nationality an issue?

Malcolm wrote:
Because India is the source of Buddhism. Not only that, Tibetan historical consciousness did not allow for an "eighth century Indian Buddhism". Of course they were aware that Mahayana and Vajrayana texts were not present from the beginning, but they still trace everything more or less back to the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: SkAB KRGYAD
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Can anybody here from you elucidate the Nyingma text "Kabje" (sKab krgayd) ?

Am interested too about the contents of this text.

Thanks in advance for your attentiom

Kalden Yungdrung


Malcolm wrote:
Are you certain of the spelling?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Heruka said:
btw, i once knew an ex-solider from Romania, from under the Ceaușescu regime. I have never met a more scared, bipolar wreck of a person in my life. and this is what the communists did to him from his cradle, and tragically to his grave. the stories he had shared were truly the stuff of nightmares.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you can find stories like that all over america too. Indian reservations, in black and latino communities. Repression of brown and black people in this country is still intense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Our economy has no foundation anymore. That is what "free market" capitalism did for us. We live in perpetual bubbles that are not propped on real assets.

N

Heruka said:
this is what the globalists wanted and did to national economies. now socialists are also expansionists, they may call it imperialism to jab the other side of the equation, but theirs is liberation and repatriation back to the motherland etc, same thing but different word magic. we have to stop and consider that this is an old game of colonization, or even the mercantile model of consolidation of wealth and power...ie the banks are the winners here. namdrol laments that usa has no manufacturing base, this is true to a certain degree, but in the old system of mercantilism, the colonies were only used for raw materials, and were never allowed to make "finished goods" ie usa is a colony of global one worlders system, only to be used for raw materials, and china is used for the finished goods. it is planned that way for sure. it was clinton and gore that removed glass stegal act that allowed wall street gamblers to leverage money and loans, to create derivative fraud that we have today. it was gore taking ENRONS energy supply and demand model fraud to set up the global warming carbon tax exchanges,,again a massive fraud.

socialists can only maintain that failed idealog by control, whether a hardcore year zero, pol pot style, or an iron fist in the velvet glove.

there is no socialist utopia...a myth and mass fraud, there is only freedom and liberty.

Malcolm wrote:
The point that sparked this thread is that conservatives are intellectually moribund in general. The left is for all of its pie in the sky idealism, at least intellectually engaged, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
Why is it that Tibetan Buddhists are hardly ever care about East Asian Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
Because it does not come from India to Tibet directly. In the Tibetan point of view, Chinese Buddhism was a second-hand Buddhism. Buddhism, yes, but not as pure as Buddhism Tibetans were receiving directly from Indian Panditas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:


TMingyur said:
Certainty! The counterpart of doubt and wavering is at stake ... so whoever wants certainty to counter doubt which is a hindrance has to rely on own experience primarily.


Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
The Eastern Gatehouse sutta provides much needed balance to this sutta targeted directly to non-Buddhists.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:45 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Enochian said:
This doesn't make sense at all in the light of Dzogchen's crystal channels.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course it does. But I am not going to discuss that here more than to say this kind of anatomy is wrapped in metaphor. When one has studied Tibetan medicine, many things become obvious that seem mysterious and mystical in Dzogchen.

Here is a hint "white silk thread" is common Tibetan medical term for nerve fibers in the body, for example, that run from the brain to all the internal organs, etc.

But in reality, it is all about physical structures in the body and how to manipulate them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Enochian said:
I'm not a republican.

I am an American.

I voted for Obama and will vote for him again.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh right, you voted for the craven, spineless party. So did I, because I thought the man had values. He turned out to be a republican.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Capitalism is the problem, my friend, and nothing else.

N


Enochian said:
For the sake of argument lets accept this.

You do realize like 99% of people live in a nice home with flat screen TV's, laptops,  Blu-Ray players?

If capitalism is the problem, we all want MORE!

America pays the LEAST amount of our income percentage wise for food.  Because "evil" corporations made food so cheap.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we don't. We live this way because we each have 50,000 slaves in other countries working their asses off for nothing.

We pay the least amount for our food because our food is produced by cheap labor by impoverished migrant workers, where it is not farmed in Mexico etc. Our TVs are manufactured in sweatshops in China (so is the Mac I am writing this on). We live a "great" life because corporations have gutted the manufacturing sector of the US economy, sent it oversees and now they just use us as bovine cattle to feed commodities to -- having reduced our economy to services and consumerism. Our economy has no foundation anymore. That is what "free market" capitalism did for us. We live in perpetual bubbles that are not propped on real assets.

And the food that evil corporations "made so cheap", as I pointed out above comes at the price of terrible suffering. Moreover, most of that cheap "food" is not even edible. It's crap. Most of what you get in normal supermarkets in the US is inedible, un-nutritious, chemically farmed on dead soil with toxic pesticides and herbicides. It is unhealthy "food".

I could go on but there is no point. You are welcome to your Neo-con fantasy, but that is all it is. I hope you wake up from your republican dream.

BY the way, when the bubble busts, and the US Govt. can no longer bail out the capitialists (nice socialist game they have going on there), shit is really going to hit the fan in the US -- and people who think they way you apparently do won't even see it coming --glued to your fancy tv and junk food.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 8:32 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:



Namdrol said:
You said "all this financial mess". One assumes you were talking about the meltdown. Not the radioactive steam released before hand.

Enochian said:
yes I was.

And the root cause was poor underwriting, giving mortgages to poor people.

Securitized instruments inherently have no problem.

Housing bubble caused the financial meltdown.

Malcolm wrote:
Securitized instruments inherently have problems when they are composed of valueless crap.

And the root cause was poor underwriting, giving mortgages to poor people, by banks for large, short term profits.

Capitalism is the problem, my friend, and nothing else.

"Free market system" is as much a religious ideology as communism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 8:22 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:



Enochian said:
You do realize that the housing problem that created all this financial mess came directly from giving mortgages to poor people?

Namdrol said:
No, it came because wall street traders securitized bad loans and good loans bundled together without vetting the loans individually and then gambled on those securities, selling them to pension funds, etc. Makes Madoff look like a prankster in comparison.


Enochian said:
No that caused the financial meltdown.  The housing problem that occurred a couple of months before hand was caused by giving mortgages to poor people.


Malcolm wrote:
You said "all this financial mess". One assumes you were talking about the meltdown. Not the radioactive steam released before hand.

Even so, the banks are responsible for this as well. Why? Because the banks were giving employees inventive to make as many loans as possible.

You can point your finger in any direction, and it all winds up back at Wall Street and their lackeys. The GOP is stupid, greedy and callous, and the Democrats are craven, spineless and vapid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
dakini_boi said:
Is there a Western medical equivalent to the vayus?  In other words, in Western terms, what is it that gathers into the aorta?


Malcolm wrote:
There is no equivalent. However, what gathers is the element of air in the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
kirtu said:
People can't afford education anymore either.

Kirt


Enochian said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwEbO_t30cg " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Socialism is to blame


Malcolm wrote:
Peter Schiff is a wall street crook.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:



Enochian said:
You do realize that the housing problem that created all this financial mess came directly from giving mortgages to poor people?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it came because wall street traders securitized bad loans and good loans bundled together without vetting the loans individually and then gambled on those securities, selling them to pension funds, etc. Makes Madoff look like a prankster in comparison.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Capitalism, as it exists today, is simply the privatization of fascism.

gregkavarnos said:
I think you are referring to Corporatism, Mussolinis wet dream!

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, this is in fact what Neo-liberalism is.

Franklin D. Roosevelt in an April 29, 1938 message to Congress warned that the growth of private power could lead to fascism:
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Pero said:
From Nyingthigs other than Norbu Rinpoche's Longsal I'm mainly interested in Vima Nyingthig because all the root upadesha tantras are there. Is anyone transmitting that in Europe? Preferably without having to have finished ngondro first hehe.


Malcolm wrote:
Khandro Nyinthig is also very interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:


Rael said:
yet Wall Street has no problems with social assistance....lol....but heaven help the poor.


Malcolm wrote:
In American we have socialism for capitalists, but not for ordinary people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: From a Namdrol post: socialism/capitalism
Content:
Enochian said:
I don't care about "global capitalist hegemony" as long as American quality of life is WAY better than socialist/communist countries.

In fact I say thank you global capitalist hegemony for doing a great job!

Actually can't believe Namdrol is defending the Chinese Comunist Model, since he knows very well what they still continue to do against Tibetan buddhists.


Malcolm wrote:
Global capitalist hegemony brought us mass extinctions and global warming.

It also resulted in Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Socialism brought forty hour works weeks, emancipation of woman, child labor laws, to a lesser extent the civil rights act. Etc.

Now, socialism /= equal Marxism. Marx was just one among many socialist and anarchist theorists.

I am not a socialist per se. But it is stupid not to recognize that most of the brilliant minds in the western world in the last century came from the left and not the right.

Capitalism, as it exists today, is simply the privatization of fascism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Enochian said:
What is the TM view of the center channel versus the Hindu view?

Namdrol said:
It is a physical structure in the human body. In general, the central channel can be considered the entire arterial system.

dakini_boi said:
Wow, this is something I have never heard.  With this understanding, could you explain what would be meant by gathering the winds into the central channel?  And furthermore, what the 2 side channels would be?  Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
The two "side" channels are the venous system (roma or rasanā) and the spinal column and nervous system (rkyang ma or lalanā).

It means that the vāyus gather in the aorta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
In order to use "is" I just have to know the term "is" and the context it "is" applied. There "is" a direct experience because there "is" a correlated of what "is" called direct experience.

Namdrol said:
So for you there is a correlate of "being" and likewise a correlate of "non-being"

This makes you a substantialist, caught up in the trap of duality.

TMingyur said:
Oh man, time to de-condition yourself ... delete the tenet operating system ... it is compatible with tenets but nothing else.

Try some poetry ... that may loosen your clinging to fixed ideas and projecting those onto words and it may enhance your intuition for the variety of meanings in language.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
I am merely pointing out the contradictions in your statements. I don't have a position.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2011 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Riwo Sang Chod
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So my lama says that one cannot do sang for others, that others can practice with you but that you cannot do this practice on behalf of another as it draws the source of the others obstacles to you.

Malcolm wrote:
I would not go along with the second part of his belief. But it is true that sang is something you are doing primarily to harmonize the area you are in. You don't do sang for others in the same sense you might do a prayer of twenty one taras.

Of course, in monasteries that make a living selling rituals, anything is possible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: The value of non-Buddhist literature?
Content:
Jikan said:
I'm working my way through Slavoj Zizek's _The Parallax View_ right now...

Namdrol said:
I like Adorno's Negative Dialectics, not least of all because it exposes the inherent fascism in eternalist thinking.



Jikan said:
One of Adorno's contemporaries, Karel Kosik, put together what may well be the closest position to dependent origination I've seen outside of Buddhist literature in _Dialectics of the Concrete_.  It put Kosik in real difficulties with the Soviets though (he was a Czech writer)... so he's not well known at all.  (Official philosophy in the Soviet Union at this time was itself eternalist in the sense of being idealistic, reductive, speculative, and constipated.)

There's something inherently anti-authoritarian in anti-eternalist, anti-idealist thinking.  Lenin's materialism shows this up too (and he has a sense of humor about it), but at the fault not of nihilism, but of accepting the reality of objects outside the mind.  That is:  Lenin was too simplistic a materialist in my opinion.  Even if objects are reducible to nothingness or their constituents, they're still real objects and not only conventionally.  The rationale is that you need an ontology if you want an ethics (actions have to matter) and a politics (some object of public concern).

Following this argument, Zizek assumes that because Buddhists understand objects to be empty, we have no basis for ethics or politics.  This is an error in my view. Zizek has a good handle on new-agey stuff, "conscious capitalism" and workplace meditation workshops, but a poor handle on Buddhism proper.  (Is it obvious I'm working on a dissertation proposal about this? or rather procrastinating...?)

It seems strange that hundred year old debates in philosophy (Lenin tearing the Ken Wilbers of his day a new one) are relevant again now.  Interesting world we inhabit.


Malcolm wrote:
This is due to the fact that all of the economic struggles waged by Socialists that led to the great freedom of thought that flourished in the mid-twentieth century have largely been undermined in the global capitalist hegemony.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: The value of non-Buddhist literature?
Content:
Jikan said:
I'm working my way through Slavoj Zizek's _The Parallax View_ right now...

Malcolm wrote:
I like Adorno's Negative Dialectics, not least of all because it exposes the inherent fascism in eternalist thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 6:58 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
In order to use "is" I just have to know the term "is" and the context it "is" applied. There "is" a direct experience because there "is" a correlated of what "is" called direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
So for you there is a correlate of "being" and likewise a correlate of "non-being"

This makes you a substantialist, caught up in the trap of duality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 6:55 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Pero said:
I wish I had the merit to be following Rinpoche at that time already.
Though at 15 years old it's pretty unlikely my parents would let me go abroad alone anyway hehe.

Mariusz said:
Hope ChNN will transmit the cycle of Nyingthik again soon and wish to go there. But H.E. Gangteng Tulku transmit full cycle of Khandro Nyingthik every 5-7 years, also with Thogal. In Poland it started in 2009 and now soon will be second Khorde Rushen but in Taiwan has already started Trekcho retreat. I guess the similar will be with Khandro Rinpoche who invited Kyabje Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche last year to start the cycle of Nyingthik too. Not to mention other masters. Many possibilities


Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Vajra Hell
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vajra hell is Avici hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 7:33 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Short form, in 2006.

Pero said:
That's great but hmm, now I'm not sure if we're thinking the same thing. I meant the formal Gomadevi initiation, it took about 2 hours. I don't know if that's short or long, I thought there was just one way hehe.


Malcolm wrote:
There is also a don dbang. Meaning empowerment.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche
Content:
Jikan said:
Curious:  a few hours ago I made a comment on the IndieGoGo link for this project that included a link to this DharmaWheel thread.  It's since been taken deleted...

Caz said:
No suprise there...People should really investigate her throughly.

Tilopa said:
There's no shortage of fake lamas around in this degenerate age.


Malcolm wrote:
There never has been [a shortage of fake lamas], this is why the tantras are full of instructions to about the qualifications of a proper guru, as well as a proper student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
However, for longde you must attend a longde retreat because there is an indispensable empowerment into the cycle of Ngondzog Gyalpo you must receive to practice longde.

Pero said:
I think that's just for his Longsal Longde. Because recently he taught the essence of Dzogchen sde gsum by Chogyur Lingpa and while there was an essential teaching on the 4 brda of Longde there was no initiation for it.
And he has not done a major cycle of empowerments since 2002 when he gave a long transmission for many cycles of his own termas known as the klong gsal mkha' 'gro snying thig.
I wish I had the merit to be following Rinpoche at that time already.
Though at 15 years old it's pretty unlikely my parents would let me go abroad alone anyway hehe.
BTW, did you receive the Gomadevi Initiation Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
Short form, in 2006.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Enochian said:
What is the TM view of the center channel versus the Hindu view?

Namdrol said:
It is a physical structure in the human body. In general, the central channel can be considered the entire arterial system.


Enochian said:
What would be the corresponding Western medical term?


Malcolm wrote:
The arterial system, all the arteries in your body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
It is about the validity of terms, not about "existence" or "non-existence" ... you won't understand.


Malcolm wrote:
Terms are valid or invalid solely in relation to their efficiency at communicating concepts to another.

Since I don't have a view of either "existence" or "non-existence", your statement is irrelevant to me. You are the one obsessed with "existence" or "non-existence", not me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
I never had the slightest thought of "existence" or "non-existence" when writing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you did. You have to in order to use the verb "is" or as in "I never had the slightest thought" indicating that as you write, you have a thought of "existence" and "non-existence". Also when you write "but there is a direct experience..."

Having a thought of "is" or "is not" is requirement for using any form of the verb "to be".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:
TMingyur said:
Kalama sutra says: Own experience has to validate what "the wise" say. No validity per se.

Malcolm wrote:
Have you validated what the Buddha was taught?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Enochian said:
What is the TM view of the center channel versus the Hindu view?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a physical structure in the human body. In general, the central channel can be considered the entire arterial system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
Kind regards

Namdrol said:
There is no such thing as an experience of a cessation.



N

TMingyur said:
You are right, a cessation qua cessation is not experienced but there is a direct experience that correlates with the term "cessation".

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is not. There is no direct experience that correlates with term "cessation". Why? Because a correlate of the term "cessation" would be completely unreal. There is no correlate to the term "cessation". When there is cessation or to use your clumsy terminology, the correlate of a cessation, there is not even a non-existence which can predicated of that correlate of a so called cessation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:



TMingyur said:
Still this is only one of three pramanas.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you accept that testimony is a pramana, as you stated below:



Namdrol said:
Materialist views have begun to make inroads into Buddhism; for example insisting that direct perception alone is valid. You seem to follow the latter line of thinking.
Huh?
I follow the buddha who says that experience is decisive.

Malcolm wrote:
And whose experience? An ordinary deluded persons experience? Is the direct perception of ordinary persons to be trusted? Knowing that you possess the three afflictions, how certain are you that your direct perceptions are to be trusted, since you never experience them directly. All direct perceptions are non-conceptual, uninterpreted; all so called "experience" is conceptual, interpreted. In order for a direct perception to be experienced there must be a reflexive awareness capable of recognizing that direct perception and framing it as an experience, for example, pleasant, unpleasant, neutral and so on. Why? Because direct perceptions are not self-reflexive. They are not aware that they are cognitions. We can know this because we have direct perceptions of many things in our visual field, for example, which we do not notice. We either process them out or cannot recognize them. Thus they are not part of our "experience". Experience is conceptual. And for ordinary persons, afflicted. So I would hesitate before declaring that the Buddha claims experience is decisive. Decisive for whom is the question. Experience is certainly not decisive for ordinary persons. If it were, than there would be no need for a path.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Articles to read, Living out loud, vs a Rigid Spirituality.
Content:
ZenLem said:
Hey guys, just some spiritual issues, basically the first article argues for not adhering to strict spiritual practice, while the second sort of pokes holes in that as missing the point

Cultivating a sloppy spirituality
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meimei-fox/the-life-out-loud-where-s_b_844670.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The response
http://www.infinitesmile.org/2011/04/cultivating-a-sloppy-spirituality/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally, it sounds like a middle way issue. I personally know the difference between enjoyment and addiction, or at least I hope I do. Anyway, something to chew on.


Malcolm wrote:
They both miss the point completely and neither of them are buddhists.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 18th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
Does Chögyal Namkhai Norbu also transmit the complete cycle of Dzogchen initatiations, up to Thogal, during several days, like other Dzogchen masters? As for example several days of initiations of Künzang Gongpa Zangthal by Kyabje Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche or Künzang Gongpa Kundu by H.E. Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche.


Malcolm wrote:
Norbu RInpoche always teaches the essence of the three series.

However, for longde you must attend a longde retreat because there is an indispensable empowerment into the cycle of Ngondzog Gyalpo you must receive to practice longde. He has taught longde many times, and according to him it is sufficient for total liberation.

He almost never transmits teachings like thogal and yangti, though he has given the lungs for these practices any number of times with the proviso that he is not teaching thogal or yangti.

And he has not done a major cycle of empowerments since 2002 when he gave a long transmission for many cycles of his own termas known as the klong gsal mkha' 'gro snying thig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:
Namdrol said:
I know of no Buddhist school that rejects this third pramana.

TMingyur said:
If you refer to Buddha Shakyamuni exclusively then you may be right. However since there is no tape recording and not all scriptures are generally accepted or interpreted the same way. Considering this this pramana is not worth much.
But then you also have to add that the other two pramanas are not necessarily accepted by all schools in addition to that one as equaly valid

So it again boils down to one of many conventions being accepted or not.

kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
This sutta is shared by all canons of early buddhists.

You misunderstood -- all Buddhist schools accept three pramanas. They may disagree about what texts can be considered Buddhavacana, but they all accept sutras as authorities.

There are certain Buddhists, who recognizing that non-Buddhists will not accept vacana as authorities try to the prove the buddha is authority through direct perception and inference so that they will accept vacana as an authority. These scholars themselves accept vacana as an authority.

The third category are the non-Buddhist lokayatis, materialists. Materialist views have begun to make inroads into Buddhism; for example insisting that direct perception along is valid. You seem to follow the latter line of thinking.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
Firstly you really have a splendid fantasy, secondly you obviously do read your own mind but not what I have written.
I did not say that nirvana can be directly percieved. What i did say is that there is a correlate of this term "nirvana" in direct experience which is nothing other than cessation of attachment or obscurations.
Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as an experience of a cessation.



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:


TMingyur said:
Listen "there are ... in buddhism ..." is invalid phrasing.
Kind regards


Namdrol said:
Don't be silly.

TMingyur said:
There is a variety of views within buddhism. You know that.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
That the testimony of reliable witnesses is accepted even in the Pali Canon can be ascertained in the Pubbakotthaka Sutta.

I know of no Buddhist school that rejects this third pramana.

Further, of the two remaining pramanas, only materialists reject inference as pramana.

Sadly, there is a disturbing and pernicious trend in modern Buddhism which is taking a crypto-materialist approach by abandoning inference and testimony as pramanas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.

Namdrol said:
Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N

TMingyur said:
"cannot serve as an objects of direct perception" may be correct in meaning.
However  "cessation (of attachment, of obscurations)" (i.e. what is called "nirvana")  has a correlate in direct experience, i.e. there is a direct experience that corresponds to the term.

Malcolm wrote:
That's the whole point, TMingyur, nirvana cannot be directly perceived, it also cannot be directly experienced (direct perception = direct experience). However, those who have an eternalist view of Nirvana, like the Theravadins and the Sarvastivadins, may assert the opposite.

So now we have discovered that not only are you a substantialist, you are also an eternalist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:
TMingyur said:
And one may agree to "testimony of reliable witnesses" being valid cogniition or not and the question also is "what is a  "reliable witness"?" and "is scripture the same? "


Malcolm wrote:
If you accept a given text represents the words of the Buddha, then you may accept it as an authority.

Of course, this only functions for Buddhists. Non-Buddhists will never regard Buddhist texts as authorities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:


TMingyur said:
Listen "there are ... in buddhism ..." is invalid phrasing.
Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Don't be silly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
Language necessarily implies fabrication. However within language there are terms that correspond to direct experience and there are terms that do not correspond at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it follows, that you, TMigyur, can and should never discuss nirvana, liberation, cessation and detachment, since these cannot serve as an objects of direct perception.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Naturally occuring
Content:


TMingyur said:
However if you define valid cognition in a way that includes knowledge of scripture then you can argue that because scripture says so you practice and foster compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three pramanas (authorities aka valid cognitions) in Buddhism: direct perception of a non-defective sense organ; inference based on such direct perceptions; testimony of reliable witnesses, such as āryas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2011 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
Namdrol said:
You should not have that much trouble finding someone to help you, depending on where you live.

Mariusz said:
When tibetan masters are teaching openly or pirivate dzogchen or tantra in tibetan and it is translated for westerners, do you often notice someting important is lost in translation? It is possible to completely practice dzogczen and tantra in english?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and yes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: So I talked to my teacher about leaving the Zendo.
Content:
ZenLem said:
Or am I just suppose to shut up and keep sitting?

Chaz said:
That's never a bad idea.

If you feel that it's time to move on, move on.

Nangwa said:
In this context its a very bad idea.
ZenLem needs a teacher who will actually guide him, speak to him plainly, and help him progress on the path.
"Just sitting" without these things will just lead to further frustration in my opinion.
This "just sit down and shut up" business is really weird if you ask me.


Malcolm wrote:
I like Aleister Crowley's meditation instruction he gave once to someone on a transatlantic voyage: "Sit down, shut up, and get out."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
Namdrol said:
I can assist people who already have basic Tibetan if they have questions. But to learn grammar and so on, you really need an in person instructor. You can try to learn Tibetan through Shang Shung, or a university.

N

Mariusz said:
I don't know the basic, but thank you to be willing to help me if I would know.

Malcolm wrote:
You should not have that much trouble finding someone to help you, depending on where you live.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
Namdrol said:
Well, from a Vajrayāna perspective it is more subtle than that i.e. mind and body have the same relation as a flower and its scent. They are inseparable; without one, there is not the other.

The mind/body dualism is a sutrayāna thing.

In Vajrayāna mind (སེམས) and the vāyu (རླུང) are completely inseparable. In the teaching of Dzogpachenpo, not only are they inseparable, but Guru Rinpoche remarks to Yeshe Tsogyal that mind and vāyu are synonymous with one another. You can discover this by reading the མཁའ་འགྲོ་སྙིང་ཐིག་རྒྱབ་ཆོས.

N

Mariusz said:
Excuse me for offtopic.

Namdrol, can you teach us tibetan via internet, mails or skype, to study tibetan texts, for basic talking and so on?


Malcolm wrote:
I can assist people who already have basic Tibetan if they have questions. But to learn grammar and so on, you really need an in person instructor. You can try to learn Tibetan through Shang Shung, or a university.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
conebeckham said:
TMingyur wishes to avoid "Dharma Language" or the conventional vocabulary in use (here and elsewhere) when discussing the Dharma, because he feels that such language all-too-easily allows for reification.

TMingyur said:
No. It is about language, terms and terminology, manifesting mere fabrication or not.

However if one assumes that mere fabrication is liberating then it may appear appropriate.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Your use of language has no less danger of manifesting "fabrications" than any other. Your theory of "correlates" does not save you from this.

You're just busy reinventing the wheel.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 8:04 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
That is another absolutist argument: To claim that oneself possesses authority of some "convention" while simply ignoring the variety of contexts conventional language can be applied and the impermanence of meanings.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
Tmingyur: if you want to talk Italians, speak Italian. If you want to talk to Russians, speak Russian. If you want to talk to Thervadins, use their dharma terminology. If you have to speak to Mahāyānists, use their terminology.

Otherwise, you meet with little success in your attempt to corral others into understanding your point of view. People don't have the time, generally, do deal with each and every person's private linguistic hell.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Tib.meds take on plantar warts
Content:
Adamantine said:
So then should I assume that Tibetan Medicine
has no theory of nor treatment for warts?


Malcolm wrote:
We burn them out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
but you seem to insist on one generally valid context containing all other contexts. A sort of "absolutist" perspective often coinciding with the belief in some thought "absolute".

having conversation with you is not un-complicated but worthwhile nevertheless and good practice.


Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
There is conventional language, and private language.

You prefer the latter, I prefer the former. It makes it easier to get across to people what they need to understand for their liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2011 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
Language is not cumbersome but a means to express "aspects" or different perspectives.

Malcolm wrote:
Your use of language is cumbersome and unnecessarily conceptually reified.


TMingyur said:
Obviously you are seeing "more" in language than just this.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I see language as an interference, and find your language use to more interfering than normal. Language is inherently conceptual.




TMingyur said:
Your conclusions are not valid since you are presupposing the intent of my words to be what you are deciding at will.

Malcolm wrote:
My conclusion is valid, since they suppose the evidence of what you have said.

TMingyur said:
You are actually insisting on your idea of reified "conditioned."

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am insisting that in common discourse there are accepted definitions of terms. If you try to redefine "conditioned" to mean something other than what people commonly understand, then you are only talking to yourself.

I conclude therefore, that you are not actually having conversations with people, but are merely engaged in a self-involved dialogue with yourself.

Oh, the misunderstood genius, Tmingyur.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana vs Theravada
Content:


Huseng said:
My guru cautions his students that Buddhahood in a single lifetime, while possible, is unlikely for most of us.


Malcolm wrote:
Hence, Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:


TMingyur said:
You are wrong in that if the correlate of what is called "cessation" whould not be caused then it would be manifest in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
The consequence of your assertion is that the putative correlate of a "cessation" is conditioned, and therefore impermanent. Therefore, the correlate of "nirvana" would be conditioned and impermanent. Thus you are in contradiction with the Buddha's teaching that the correlate of the term "nirvana" is unconditioned and permanent. Since the putative correlate of a "cessation" ceases due to an absence of a cause, the correlate of a "cessation" cannot be predicated until such putative correlates of a "cause" are no longer present.

This use of language is cumbersome.

In plainer language, since you assert that a cessation is caused, cessations as a consequence would be conditioned. The negative consequence that you have to accept is that nirvana would be conditioned.

Accept the three wheels. Anything that arises from a cause is a conditioned dharma. If you assert that cessations are caused, you are asserting they are conditioned.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 8:36 PM
Title: Re: Strengthening Energy Channels
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Gentle persons:

Diagnosis and treatment of spirit possession or attacks are actually an integral part of Tibetan Medicine. According to both Tibetan Medicine there are four main causes of disease: diet, behavior, season and spirits.

While I understand your wish to help and mantra healing is an important part of treating such diseases -- such diseases need to be diagnosed properly. Not just any mantra will necessarily work.

I can understand that some people wish to take psychological perspective about spirits, but this is not the view of Tibetan Medicine or Tibetan Buddhism in general. Giving people advice from Chö teachings is not really suitable and possibly dangerous since it can cause people to ignore dangerous symptoms.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Strengthening Energy Channels
Content:
deff said:
my teacher is Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche... though I'm fairly new with him, I'm enrolled in his 10-year north american dharma gar. I sent an email to him about this situation through the dharma gar coordinator but I haven't heard back yet.

we're doing ngondro practice right now, but I've heard that when we get to yidam practice it might be Hayagriva which would be great

what's a wind/pacifying diet exactly? also, do you just burn gugul in bulk like incense?

I would ask Lama Dawa about the class of spirit, but I'm out of work and broke right now, so that'll have to wait unfortunately.

thanks for the help namdrol!


Malcolm wrote:
You need to see an Ayurvedic practitioner or a Tibetan doctor.

Yes, you burn gugul in your house. This can help dispell spirits.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
Well then ... I wonder what is so attractive about all these tenets about and around "emptiness" which are mere "intellect & ideas".

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
There are no tenets around emptiness. Emptiness is not a view. It is the antidote to views, the antidote to tenets.

Views are only "asti" and "nasti" i.e. "is", or "isn't".



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
TMingyur said:
I have never been talking about "my ideas".

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
Your ideation is all you have talking been about all along.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Right, but this chapter three of the Kosha, and we know that the kosha's cosmology cannot be taken literally as written.

Astus said:
Yes, that's my point too, that we can't take traditional view literally. So the question, what is it that we can accept?

Malcolm wrote:
Meditative experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:



Enochian said:
One cannot achieve Buddahood on physical earth using Vajrayana?

I am confused

Malcolm wrote:
According to general Vajrayāna teachings, Buddhahood, still occurs in Akanistha via a mental body.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
A being cannot see those who live in a higher realm except by magic or other aid, says the Kosha in reference to gods of different heavens. This is actually the answer for not being able to see them normally.

But my question touches upon the issue of the relationship between cosmology and theology (god-lore). As we have a different view of the world where can we position the beings of other realms?

As for the literal nature of the teachings on the realms of gods, in vol. 2 p. 463-464 of the Kosha, Vasubandhu discusses at length the spread of the fragrance of the flowers of a certain magnolia tree situated in the world of the Thirty-Three Gods.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, but this chapter three of the Kosha, and we know that the kosha's cosmology cannot be taken literally as written.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
A being cannot see those who live in a higher realm except by magic or other aid, says the Kosha in reference to gods of different heavens. This is actually the answer for not being able to see them normally.

But my question touches upon the issue of the relationship between cosmology and theology (god-lore). As we have a different view of the world where can we position the beings of other realms?

As for the literal nature of the teachings on the realms of gods, in vol. 2 p. 463-464 of the Kosha, Vasubandhu discusses at length the spread of the fragrance of the flowers of a certain magnolia tree situated in the world of the Thirty-Three Gods.


Malcolm wrote:
The Kosha says that someone who is in dhyana can see the beings belonging to the equivalent realm because their organ of sense has been subtly transformed by dhyana. See the discussion at verse 1:45c-d.

I.e. their body can belong to the kamadhātu, but their organ of sight can belong for example, to the first dhyāna, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
maestro said:
The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.
Probably a dumb question. I don't know much about Vajrayana. Once rainbow body is achieved does it revert back to human form if it decides to? Not out of Bodhisattva compassion but just a natural process of being of created from the five wisdom lights and then reverting back and forth.

Malcolm wrote:
Since you are realizing the nature of your own wisdom, your body, externally, won't change at all. But your inner experience will be completely transformed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
TMingyur said:
"Entrance" is a metaphor because it is not like "to enter a room", i.e. first being "outside" and then - having passed the entrance - one is in the room. It is not like this. "Entrance" is the collection of causes and conditions that lead to cessation of past, cessation of future and cessation of present.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
This is one root of your various misunderstandings. Cessations cannot be caused nor conditions. Causes and conditions do not lead to cessations, they only lead to further causes and conditions. A cessation is the absence of causes and conditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Strengthening Energy Channels
Content:
deff said:
Hi,

I've been possessed by a spirit(s) for the past 16 months, which has made my life and specifically my meditation practice quite difficult. I had a mirror divination done my Lama Dawa when it first started and was told:

Question: I feel there is a demon or entity harming my life and my practice. It frequently deludes me and seems to possess me. Is this a real entity, and if so, what type of entity?
Answer: Your energy channels are very weak, which allows for different spirits to possess you. In particular you are being affected by a spirit named 'Batarey Pandey'.

In a later question he told me wearing a Hayagriva amulet should repel him, so I tried this, but to no avail. So then I decided I should try and stengthen my energy channels to prevent possession altogether, but I'm not sure how this might be accomplished. Is there any link between diet/behaviour and energy channel strength perhaps? Or maybe would hatha yoga or something similar be effective? Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
You probably have a wind disorder. You should try a wind/pacifying diet. Regularly burn gugul. You should practice something like Hayagriva, Guru Dragpo, or Vajrakilaya. You should find out from Lama Dawa what class of spirit Batarey Pandey belongs to (i.e.gyal po, tsan, etc).

Who is your teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Nangwa said:
If not ideas, what?
If not yours, whose?

TMingyur said:
Just that:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind regards

Nangwa said:
The same quote again, that everyone knows and nobody disputes.
Talk about clinging. You're drowning in it.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you know that TMingyur is a one trick pony, a substantialist one at that.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
TMingyur has world split into, shall we say "represands" and "representations". He feels for every valid representation there must be an truly existent represand, otherwise, that representation is invalid. It is a very substantialist view.

He rejects madhyamaka because Madhyamaka renders all representations invalid since there are not actual represands, only conventional represands.

N

TMingyur said:
You are totally conditioned by your learned thinking. That is the effect of philosophy.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
I am not a philosopher. I don't have any views. But it is interesting to see how yours are exposed at every turn.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
Therefore it is better to stay in the conventional sphere of the aggregates: perception, consciousness, feeling
Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
but you don't.

There is a Dharma language used for discussing Dharma. It is very precise. I suggest you learn it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
Namdrol said:
Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.

LastLegend said:
Ok you are talking about 10 titles of Buddha. Then yes. But I was not talking about the title of Arhat as in Buddha.


Malcolm wrote:
In Mahayana, bodhisattvas are not arhats, not even remotely. They only become arhats when they achieve full awakening.

Stages 1-6 are the stages of stream entry. Stage 7 is a once returner. Stages 8-10 are never returners. Stage 11 is full buddhahood. There are no arhats in this scheme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
conebeckham said:
TMINGYUR-

Is your "Correlate" what I would call the "mental image" of the direct perception by the sense faculty and consciousness?
In other words, the image that exists in the mental consciousness? Do you understand my question?

TMingyur said:
Don't know if I understand your question.

"correlate" is a "stirring".
The term "mental image" feels like there already being some sort of "intuitive" (re-)cognition which is kind of "subtle" fabricating thought and is somewhere "in between" this "stirring" and full-fledged thought.


Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Part of the problem here, TMigyur is that you are using this invented made up Dharma language. So largely, people have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell your actually saying, apart from your standard retort about clinging. You would boor paint at a dinner party.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Rael said:
whats a represands...


Malcolm wrote:
It is a word I made up for the object of a representation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Good old allergies
Content:
Jikan said:
Interesting.

I get seasonal allergies if I'm in a part of the world that is new to me (contains pollen I'm not particularly accustomed to).  I grew up in Oregon, where there's no ragweed, and conifer trees overwhelmingly outnumber elms.  Here in Virginia, my face is definitely swollen and drippy.  Each year is less troublesome, though.

Does this phenomenon of becoming acclimated to an allergen over time and exposure sound reasonable from a Tibetan Medicine POV, or is there something else going on?

PS:  I find it helpful to eat local honey as well, but this may be my way of justifying a sweet tooth to myself


Malcolm wrote:
No, eating local honey is one of the best ways to acclimatize your body to allergens.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Good old allergies
Content:


mindyourmind said:
Behavior such as ?

Malcolm wrote:
(Diet) and Behavior in your case that causes your digestive fire to be weak. Could be behavior for many years running. Being around industrial pollutants, tainted water, etc. Most people who have allergies are from the city. I personally think chlorinated water has a lot to do with it, these days.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
This is also a question because gods below the formless realm have some kind of physical body thus they're supposed to be somewhere. But where is it?

Huseng said:
Deva are said to be shining ones or beings of light. One might imagine their physical bodies are composed of light.

Some adepts claim to be able to see them.

One senior monk I spoke to India visited a mountain and in his meditation he said he sensed them. He described them as goddesses who long ago had been present at the Buddha's teachings and being in their presence was an indescribable joy.

I don't think you'll find much more of an answer than that. You cannot go out into the mountains with a camera and hope to snap a photo of a deva.

Malcolm wrote:
Their bodies are composed of light.

Achieving the ability to see devas is a result of change in the optical nerves, etc., under the influence of dhayna, etc. This is not a path phenomena, but a mundane phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
Nangwa said:
Kind of mixing threads here but I found this conversation from the "Yidam and Dzogchen" thread to be really fascinating and I think it is relevant here.
Namdrol, in that thread you made this post:
"It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over."

Now, are both abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi at the stage of kadag chenpo?
And also, since the primordial wisdoms, elements etc. are present in every sentient being and are fully integrated at this stage, how does one who attains this stage escape returning to samsara when this universe dissolves and a new one comes into being? Is it simply that kadag chenpo is beyond any and all implications of a "universe"?
thanks for any more details you can provide on this.


Malcolm wrote:
Only samyak.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 15th, 2011 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:


LastLegend said:
What is your idea about what an Arhat is?

Namdrol said:
Arhats are those who have eradicated all afflictive obscurations, have not necessarily gather the merit and wisdom accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats until they become full buddhas i.e.tathāgatas, arhats, samyaksambuddhas. And they do not eradicate all afflictive obscurations until the end of the 7th  bhumi.

N

LastLegend said:
You misread me.
Bodhisattvas are not Arhats but Arhats with vows to help others are Bodhisattvas.

Malcolm wrote:
Not, I did not misread you.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats in any sense until they become Buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:


Namdrol said:
The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

Nangwa said:
Hey Namdrol,
There are varying degrees of this are there not?
I cant really remember without looking it up (and I wouldnt post anything from it publicly anyways) but if I remember correctly at least one version of complete attainment in the Yeshe Lama leaves no trace. Maybe hair and nails or something.


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen describes two states of final Buddhahood: abhisambodhi and samyaksambodhi. The former is with residue, the latter without residue. The latter turns Mahāyāna buddhology on its head again, by asserting there is an abiding Buddhahood as opposed to the common Mahāyāna ideal of non-abiding Buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
According to Vajrayana, no one has ever achieved Buddhahood any place on Earth or any place else, nor will they ever. If one is to say it's attained anywhere, it's Akanistha.


Enochian said:
Now this is an embarrassingly wrong statement

Maybe he meant sutrayana


Malcolm wrote:
No, Indian Vajrayāna more or less follows sutra in terms of basic Buddhology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?


Namdrol said:
I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".


Enochian said:
Gotcha.  We are on the same train of thinking now.

This is sort of the entire point of the thread, that common sutra Mahayanists can't achieve Buddhahood on physical earth according to their own teachings.

Thanks for confirming

Malcolm wrote:
Not true of Dzogchen, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
I'd say that there is no Mt. Meru on Earth because none can fit the description. It makes little difference if we identify any ordinary mountain as the "real Meru" since there are no terraces on it where gods live their lives, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Not that many Indians in the old days every trekked to Meru. For them it was a distant mountain, seen from the plains of India. easy to imagine terraces.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
I'd say that there is no Mt. Meru on Earth because none can fit the description. It makes little difference if we identify any ordinary mountain as the "real Meru" since there are no terraces on it where gods live their lives, etc.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, you would be wrong. You are being to literal.

For example in the Mahabharata, it is regularly described as a place where, for example, Arjuna can picnic, etc.

And for example, the Uttarakurus live to the north of Meru. Ptolemy mentions a people called the Kurus that live to the north of the region of Afghanistan.

So it is pretty cetain, I would say. Ancient Indo=-Aryans always selected an Axial mountain to center their cosmology around. There is a mountain in Iran that is described in similar terms to Meru, four rivers coming from it in the four directions, etc etc.

These myths always have a basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:


LastLegend said:
What is your idea about what an Arhat is?

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats are those who have eradicated all afflictive obscurations, have not necessarily gather the merit and wisdom accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

Bodhisattvas are not arhats until they become full buddhas i.e.tathāgatas, arhats, samyaksambuddhas. And they do not eradicate all afflictive obscurations until the end of the 7th  bhumi.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol,

You agree with the part where he said "So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth"???

Or are you simply saying that is the view of sutrayana?


Malcolm wrote:
I am saying this is the view of sutrayāna cf. Lanka-avatyara sutra, to paraphrase "The real Buddha attains full awakening in Akanistha, an emanated one attains Buddhahood here".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
Well, it doesn't look like thousands of yojanas high and there are no surrounding mountains of different metals plus the inner oceans, etc. So it is mount Meru in name only.

Being all metaphorical, well, no, I don't think it was all intended as a big over-complicated metaphor. And metaphor for what?


Malcolm wrote:
No, Kailash is Meru. Geography mythologized until it was not very recognizable in comparison with landscape features.

The inner oceans are not oceans, they are lakes and rivers.

Meru in traditional maps is surrounded by a box like shape of mountains. That certain describes the Tibetan plateau in general.

Ptolomey, for example mentions the Uttarakurus.

So we can understand that Meru and four continents is a mythologized understanding of terrestrial geography and that is all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Astus said:
Traditionally it is described that gods live on mount Meru and above in the sky. There are actual distances given and so on. But where are the gods now that we have no mount Meru and even the sky ends at one point and there is just empty space left? This is also a question because gods below the formless realm have some kind of physical body thus they're supposed to be somewhere. But where is it?


Malcolm wrote:
We have a Mt. Meru -- it is Kailaish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
LastLegend said:
So far there is no human who has become Buddha on Earth. In other words, what human can achieve is Arhat (level of attainment) and an Arhat with vows to help other sentient beings is known as a Bodhisattva, and this Bodhisattva will continue the work to become Buddha.


Enochian said:
This is 100% wrong.  You are greatly confused.  Or maybe you should indicate these are your own personal heretical views.


Malcolm wrote:
This is one hundred percent a standard Mahāyāna view, apart from the confusion about what an arhat is.

I must say though, at this point people need to start giving citations. Otherwise it is just an opinion fest.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
heart said:
I think there are all kinds of misconceptions going on in this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


heart said:
It is only a problem if you are a Dzogchen practitioner and I know a few of those that also doubt in the rainbow body.

Malcolm wrote:
The body of light aka rainbow body is simply the body reverting back to the five lights of wisdom. The sign of this is that at death the body shrinks to a very small size.

heart said:
I think we all have to realize that the schedule of the nine yanas with Ati-yoga as the highest and fastest teaching will not be accepted by all Buddhists and to try to convince them of this is just ridiculous and also lacks merit.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, though it is ok to mention that this is what we think. Some people instantly become interested, other people are indifferent. We think that people who become interested in Dzogchen have very fortunate karma as opposed to those who are disinterested in it. But it is not our job to condition others.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
conebeckham said:
TMINGYUR-

Is your "Correlate" what I would call the "mental image" of the direct perception by the sense faculty and consciousness?
In other words, the image that exists in the mental consciousness? Do you understand my question?

Nangwa said:
Maybe Tmingyur is using "correlate" in the sense of pramana or valid cognition.


Malcolm wrote:
Direct perceptions do not cling. There is no clinging in sparsha, contact. Clinging arises following the second order cognition which we call craving; which itself follows sensation i.e. when a direct perception registers as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral to the manas.

This makes it impossible for clinging to ever be a direct perception or experience. There is no correlate to clinging, clinging is just clinging.

TMingyur has world split into, shall we say "represands" and "representations". He feels for every valid representation there must be an truly existent represand, otherwise, that representation is invalid. It is a very substantialist view.

He rejects madhyamaka because Madhyamaka renders all representations invalid since there are not actual represands, only conventional represands.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Direct perceptions are non-conceptual i.e. apriori to mental images.
This is as I understood, thanks.
Clinging does not occur until after the unmediated "image" becomes a "mental image," I think...correct?


Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
If this were possible we would be able to break the chain of dependent origination at the point of contact (phassa), but according to D.O. craving gives rise to contact (via feeling) so basically we have a mental effect before the contact, ie contact itself is an outcome of mind.  I guess that makes direct perception out of the question.

This (if it is correct) gives rise to another question: without ignorance there is no perception?


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry greg, you have your nidanas backward -- it is contact --> sensation --> craving --> clinging -- becoming -- etc.

We can break DO at sparsha. We can break it at any point. It is easiest however to break it at vedana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Namdrol-
Aggregates involved in "direct perception" would depend on what is being perceived, yes?
So, for example, a direct perception of form would involve the eye consciousness.  But this is immediately followed by the "image" in the Mental consciousness, and any "thinking" or "cognition" involving the form is based on the "image" in the mental consciousness, and not on the direct perception of the eye consciousness...in fact, I don't know that we can claim to have a direct perception of form by the eye consciousness prior to that perception being "registered" by the Mental consciousness?

(Edited for clarity)--

Malcolm wrote:
'
Direct perceptions are non-conceptual i.e. apriori to mental images.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

TMingyur said:
It is not, yes. But a correlate of it can be directly experienced. Actually not only "can" but this correlate has to be directly experienced before a labelling thought can arise.

Malcolm wrote:
Your assertion was that clinging can be directly experienced, now you are claiming a correlate of it can be experienced. What correlate, does it have a name?

If not, you are spinning fantasies.



Namdrol said:
In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.
Then there can be no direct experience of clinging, since clinging depends, like all afflictive states, on a mistaken perception of identity.
A directly experienced correlate that can develop (but not necessarily does) into the labelling thought.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand this is your theory, but it finds no support in the teaching of the Buddha.

Namdrol said:
Therefore, your contention that clinging can be directly experienced or is a direct experience is completely negated.
Not so. The effect is characterized (i.e. labelled) as its cause.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, you are refuted on two counts. One) for fabricating correlates where none are necessary. Two) for asserting that clinging is a direct perception.

There is no correlate needed for clinging. This like imagining that motion needs a mover.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
TMingyur said:
A synonym for "direct perception", i.e. "perception perceives" ... without fabricating synthesizing thought.

Namdrol said:
Which aggregates are involved in a direct perception?

TMingyur said:
Invalid question.

Malcolm wrote:
It's a perfectly valid question. If you refuse to answer it means you do not know.

TMingyur said:
No. You are confusing our talking and applying terms with direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Clinging, upadāna, is not a direct experience. It is a mediated experience. With what is it mediated? imputations of identity.

TMingyur said:
In direct experience there is no identity. "Identity" is a fabrication following in the wake of attachment.

Malcolm wrote:
Then there can be no direct experience of clinging, since clinging depends, like all afflictive states, on a mistaken perception of identity.

Therefore, your contention that clinging can be directly experienced or is a direct experience is completely negated.

Next.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction
Content:
Rael said:
Namdrol...you have my attention and respect...
i implore you to tell me.

what you think the LS really is

who do you think wrote the thing....

Malcolm wrote:
It was first translated into Chinese between 265-317 CE. Generally it is assumed that Sutras predate their Chinese translation by fifty to one hundred years. But since this sutra is early in the Chinese canon, it could have been composed as much as 400 years before its transmission to China. Broadest range the Saddharmapundarika could have been composed in would be in the range of 100 BCE to 150-200 CE. Since it was one of the earliest sutras translated into Chinese, these indicates its importance to early Mahāyānists.  As it stands, it was not composed all at once and comprises several layers.

As to its origin, it is fair to say that it is an inspired vision.

Rael said:
and where did Medicine Buddha originate....

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we have the Lotus Sutra, the Medicine Buddha Sutra, and the presence of Medicine Buddha's dharani in the fifth century Buddhist Ayruvedic text, Aṣṭṅgahridayasamhita.

Again, its author is anonymous and its origin is inspired. As a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, I practice Medicine Buddha everyday.


Rael said:
Dzogchen  eh...so you are Nyingma then...i believe this is exclusive to them...yes /no....
or you were

Malcolm wrote:
I am a Dzogchen practitioner, I don't fell like I belong to any school. I had a lot of training in Sakya. But I don't feel connected with any one school more than any other school. Instead I feel connected with the Dzogchen teachings more than any particular school. If you have to give me a tradition, Tibetan Medicine has an independent tradition of practice that only doctors undertake. It is also connected with Dzogchen. I guess technically you could say I am a Nyingmapa, but I don't feel like I really belong to this school or that school. I am a Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 1:13 AM
Title: Remember when...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Yeah, me neither.
(If you're inclined to agree, re-post, please.)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2011 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Corrupt government and taxes.
Content:
Namdrol said:
So the only hope for you, Jeff, is to become a Dzogchen practitioner and leave this Sahaloka either in this life, at the time of death or in the bardo. That is the fastest, most effective way to become an expatriate from samsara.

N

Huseng said:
Is not Vajrayana or Chan sufficient for such purposes?


Malcolm wrote:
Not as fast or direct, in my opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Corrupt government and taxes.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Correct, if you cannot in good conscience continue to live in your nation, then you must either change it or leave. For example, Nazi Germany caused almost everyone to become evil. But no one knew it at first.

But still, you need to understand the previous post. For example, all the money we are using for Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., is money borrowed.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that one cannot fix samsara.

N

Huseng said:
Are not the tax payers eventually held to pay the bill for the borrowed money?

I mean many nations are still paying off the war debt from WWII.

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, you can never escape the web of international finances that is funding the war economy. In Nāgārjuna's day, it was easy -- you moved a hundred miles and you were in a different country, different king, etc.

Now, everything is tied together by international banks that fund the wars and prop up every government on the planet.

So the only hope for you, Jeff, is to become a Dzogchen practitioner and leave this Sahaloka either in this life, at the time of death or in the bardo. That is the fastest, most effective way to become an expatriate from samsara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Corrupt government and taxes.
Content:
Will said:
If one does not want to do or not do something, but is forced to do or not do something, then the merit or demerit of the act would be much reduced, maybe zero.

Huseng said:
Right. But I'm talking about refusing to cooperate with and bow down to evil authorities.

In Nagarjuna's Tree of Wisdom there are some interesting quotes:

If your wife is evil and your friend evil,
If the King is evil and your relatives evil,
If your neighbour is evil and the country evil,
(Then) abandon them for a distant (land).

The clever, the disciplined,
The contented and the truth-tellers,
It is better for such to die
Than (to live in) the kingdom of the evil.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/srdb/srdb.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, if you cannot in good conscience continue to live in your nation, then you must either change it or leave. For example, Nazi Germany caused almost everyone to become evil. But no one knew it at first.

But still, you need to understand the previous post. For example, all the money we are using for Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., is money borrowed.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that one cannot fix samsara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Corrupt government and taxes.
Content:
Namdrol said:
As a Buddhist, you are expected the follow the laws of the nation you live in.

Huseng said:
Right. But in some cases the laws of ones nation force citizens to do immoral and wrong deeds (conscription to fight wars is one example). Moreover, if a tyrant or evil party are in command of the state they derive power through a tax-base and the cooperation of the citizenry.

If your federal government is using your taxes to actively kill people in a foreign country to further corporate interests, are you not obligated to disobey the laws and refuse to financially support the government?

Malcolm wrote:
At this point, even so, you still have to follow the laws of the nation you live in. You may disagree with a given policy of one's nation, for example, but the only time it would be permissible to completely break with one's civil government is if they were so tyrannical they were not even providing any services to the people at large.

Now, for example, take the US Government, since that is who you are really talking about: tax revenues for 2010 were 2.16 trillion dollars. the federal deficit was 1.3 trillion dollars. Military spending is roughly eight hundred billion dollars a year.

This means basically that US government is not spending tax dollars to prosecute its wars around the world, it is borrowing money to prosecute its wars around the world.

This means that still people should pay their taxes and at the same time work to have a functional government that refuses to engage in the type of military adventurism we have seen since the Bush Administration.

It is simple numbers. Since the US Goverment still provides essential services, is not a complete tyranny (yet, though it seems with each year we keep sliding ever closer to fascism, no matter who is power, Repulican or Democrat, but this is largely because of the corporatocracy), US Citizens still need to pay their taxes as mandated in federal law from a Buddhist point of view. I am sure that Buddha would not have recommended that the subjects of Ajatasatru refuse to pay their taxes, for example.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: The entrance of wishlessness
Content:
muni said:
Consciousness is not a derivation of material. Therefore I wrote 'we' are not the body.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, from a Vajrayāna perspective it is more subtle than that i.e. mind and body have the same relation as a flower and its scent. They are inseparable; without one, there is not the other.

The mind/body dualism is a sutrayāna thing.

In Vajrayāna mind (སེམས) and the vāyu (རླུང) are completely inseparable. In the teaching of Dzogpachenpo, not only are they inseparable, but Guru Rinpoche remarks to Yeshe Tsogyal that mind and vāyu are synonymous with one another. You can discover this by reading the མཁའ་འགྲོ་སྙིང་ཐིག་རྒྱབ་ཆོས.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Good old allergies
Content:


Namdrol said:
Let me ask, did you never not have allergies, if so when and where?


mindyourmind said:
I've pretty much always had them in mild form as a child, but now, at age 47, they seem to have become worse, if stabilized.

As a layman I experience a change in weather conditions and temperature as having a big effect on my sinuses / allergies. Is that possible?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, definitely. Allergies always indicate a imbalance. Imbalances are caused by season, diet, behavior, and spirits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Corrupt government and taxes.
Content:
Huseng said:
Is a citizen really morally obligated to pay taxes and/or cooperate with a government they feel is largely corrupt and/or committing evil?

One example that comes to mind is that if your government is waging an unjust war and you are a proponent of ahimsa (non-violence), are you not obligated to refuse paying taxes as those taxes would be used to support ongoing violent military operations?

I think from a Buddhist perspective this can get interesting because of the historical precedents between governments and the sangha in many different nations in various time periods.

In any case, as an individual how do you feel?


Malcolm wrote:
As a Buddhist, you are expected the follow the laws of the nation you live in.

Of course, this does not rule out civil disobedience, but when you engage in civil disobedience, you have to understand the possible consequences of it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
TMingyur said:
A synonym for "direct perception", i.e. "perception perceives" ... without fabricating synthesizing thought.

Malcolm wrote:
Which aggregates are involved in a direct perception?




TMingyur said:
As "this" and "that" it can only be known through labelling. If there is no labelling as "this" and "that" then there is either "direct experience" (s. above) or stupor/dullness.

Malcolm wrote:
This means that clinging cannot be a direct experiences in any way, since clinging itself is a conceptual state produced through "fabricating, synthesizing thought". Direct perceptions are completely non-conceptual. The remedy to clinging therefore is recognizing the object clung to, as well as the clinging, and the clinger to be empty of identity. This recognition in turn leads to the cessation of clinging through the direct perception of the absence of identity in the tricakram, the three wheels.

One can however directly know that one is engaged in clinging. But clinging itself is fabricated, synthesized state that occurs through ignorance of identitylessness. One can cling to existence (appearance) or non-existence (disappearance) -- the middle way is realizing that in reality phenomena neither appear nor disappear, but are wholly constructed through, in your words, "fabricating, synthesizing thought".

What it all boils down to, in the end, is accepting and rejecting. The narrow path through the Scylla and Charybdis of accepting and rejecting, existence and non-existence, etc., is the realization of inseparable dependent origination and emptiness. There is no other path, no other middle way than this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 11:22 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
The Buddha taught "If there is this then there is that" or "with the cessation of this there comes the cessation of that" You can validly label "this" and "that" and verify that the Buddha was right. And since you know "this" and "that" through direct experience you can validly confirm the lack of "this" and "that". But what is mere thought in the first place cannot be confirmed to be absent later on because there has not been a link to direct experience and confirming absence presupposes to know that (through direct experience) which is allegedly absent.

Malcolm wrote:
What, precisely, do you mean by "direct experience"?

How can "this or "that" be known without labeling "this" as "this" or "that" as "that"?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 11:08 AM
Title: Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction
Content:
conebeckham said:
Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?


Namdrol said:
Yup. A novel written by discursive mind.

Rael said:
so the lotus sutra is really not even Buddhist...

and what of Medicine Buddha where does that originate...

please

Malcolm wrote:
I was kidding around.

The Lotus Sutra is Buddhist.

There is no such thing as original Buddhism.

This is a total invention of western Protestants projecting their own neurosis about text and authenticity.

Mahāyāna is just Buddhists doing Buddhism. The Lotus Sutra is one version of that. If you don't like the Lotus, move on. You will find another sutra you like.

Me, I just stick with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 10:57 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
This is our dissent. I say that it is "attachment" (or "clinging") that can be directly experienced but you prefer "thinking about" and infer "it must be existence that is 'felt' and that causes the clinging". I consider this to be philosophical fabrication deviating from direct experience and leading to further deviating fabrications and ... to "the thicket of views".


Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
You seem to be clinging tightly to a thicket of views in an attempt to avoid that thicket.

"It exists", "it does not exist" is an ingrained habitual imputation -- that is a view,that is also a thought. Apart from these two views, there are no other views since all views can be summarized into these two positions or thoughts.

The ingrained habitual imputation "It exists" or "it does not exist" is the cause of clinging or attachment. There is no existence to be "felt". Existence/non-existence is an imputation that lacks a basis.

From another perspective, clinging can never be an unmediated experience since it is following craving, which follow sensation. When there is no craving, there can be no clinging. When there is craving, this is accompanied by the thought, "I want this", "I don't want that".

A sensation on the other hand, does not necessarily involve clinging since sense consciousnesses are wholly non-conceptual, and and their object is in the present moment. Clinging is an operation of the manas, and therefore, constantly involved with past moments of sense perception. Hence clinging is a wholly conceptual state, divorced from non-conceptual sense cognitions, based on craving. Craving is also function of manas, and is also supported on a past object, the object of sensation produced during contact.

So, while it is possible to experience an attachment directly that experience is based on a thought, divorced from the sense percept of that object of attachments. Attachment therefore, cannot be direct experiences, although they themselves can be directly experiences as mental objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 9:33 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Therefore, appearances are neither something (existent) nor nothing (non-existent), but are empty of these two extremes.

This is the middle way.

TMingyur said:
For this kind of middle way the mere thought "existence" is introduced in the first place and the mere thought "emptiness" is produced in its aftermath. Thoughts spinning aound.
Without clinging in the first place neither extreme nor middle.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
TMingyur:

In order to be free from clinging, first there must be clinging from which to be free. In order for clinging to occur, the thought "this exists" or "this does not exist" must arise concerning some apparent phenomena. In order to be free from clinging, the thought, "this is empty" must arise.

There is no such a thing as "without clinging in the first place" because sentient beings, in the first place, appropriate aggregates based on clinging to aggregates they apprehend as existent.

In order to be free from clinging to these addictive aggregates (all conditioned appearances, both mental and physical) apprehended as existent, one must learn to see these as aggregates of empty of identity and whatever pertains to an identity. When one has seen that the aggregates are empty of a identity and whatever pertains to an identity, at that point, and at that point alone, will one be "without clinging". Without seeing the absence of identity of apparent phenomena, there is no way in which one can be free from clinging.

In other words, without eradicating the afflictions (moha, rāga, dveśa) that drive the cycle of samsara, one will never eliminate the instantiation of affliction called "clinging". Without seeing the emptiness of phenomena i.e. their absence of identity, one will never eradicate the afflictions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 6:42 AM
Title: Re: Is the Lotus Sutra just fction
Content:
conebeckham said:
Is Dharma Wheel just fiction?

Is conebeckham just fiction?

is Rael just fiction?

Is the Real just Fiction?


Malcolm wrote:
Yup. A novel written by discursive mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2011 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sounds like you're stuck on Heidegger's question: "Why is there something rather than nothing"?

Appearances are not nothing, since they appear, but they are not something, since they are not findable.

Therefore, appearances are neither something (existent) nor nothing (non-existent), but are empty of these two extremes.

This is the middle way.


norman said:
There is no emptiness, nor any ”structural relationship”. In counterpart to Form, to the universe, we  have emptiness or voidness, which is Nothing, because the world is Everything that appears to be. It is the absence of everything, which is Nothing at all, that implies its positive aspect, so that Nothing, being that which is not, is also that which appears to be. Appearance, that which appears to be, is nothing in itself, because it can only be apparent, as such, when implied as being counterpart to nothing, which is not.

Objects have no objective qualities. Any perceived attribute is all it is as an object. Its attributes and its objectivity are identical, they are two side of the same coin. Its objectivity is therefore only an appearance, since all it is, is whatever we perceive it to be (the qualities, attributes).

The notion that the earth is round is essentially no different than the notion that the world is flat. Neither has any existence as objects, since the perceived qualities (shapes, substances, etc) are identical with its appearances. We cannot separate the perceived roundness from the appearance of the earth, as such. Therefore no deductions or syllogisms can be made that would define it objectively, since all we have are separate qualities and attributes, concepts or dharmas. The object is a convention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Good old allergies
Content:
mindyourmind said:
I have one and one only health issue that can be quite invasive and a pain in the sitting area - those good old allergies.

My life is just structured in such a manner that I cannot in any significant way avoid the triggers - I am outside every day, I work in various offices and buildings, I have the odd smoker around me, lots of pets, pollen - you name it.

Any ideas or remedies from the Tibetan medicine pov? Any suggestions on diet?



Thank you


Namdrol said:
You can try applying ghee or sesame oil inside of your nostrils before you go outside, create a barrier in this way.

Avoid dairy, and get an oil called "anutailam" from Trihealth or otherwise, nasya oil from Banyan Botanicals. Use a neti pot, then nourish the membranes with the oil. It is important to use the oil after cleansing with neti, because otherwise, you will inflame and dry out the membranes.

A lot of allergies are actually a side effect of weak metabolic heat. So, check with an local experienced Ayurvedic practitioner -- they generally have more experience with allergies than Tibetan doctors at present.

Allergies are an urban illness. They do not affect people raised in the country so much.


mindyourmind said:
Thank you very much.

I have tried the neti pot briefly, without the oil so maybe that is worth a new attempt. I realize that diary is a Bad Thing, and I try to cut down on that.

The other remedies, especially the oils, seem quite positive. I will certainly try that.

Does the "weak metabolical heat" mean that if my metabolism gets given a boost, say by exercise, that this will assist in combating the problem?

Send me your bill, doctor


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, exercise, a metabolism increasing diet, or rectifying metabolism.

There are three different types of allergies based on your phenotype, i.e. vata, pitta and kapha. So the type of exercise and diet you have should be seasonally changed, in accordance with your type. You cannot fix allergies from outside, you can only fix them from inside,

Let me ask, did you never not have allergies, if so when and where?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Good old allergies
Content:
mindyourmind said:
I have one and one only health issue that can be quite invasive and a pain in the sitting area - those good old allergies.

My life is just structured in such a manner that I cannot in any significant way avoid the triggers - I am outside every day, I work in various offices and buildings, I have the odd smoker around me, lots of pets, pollen - you name it.

Any ideas or remedies from the Tibetan medicine pov? Any suggestions on diet?



Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
You can try applying ghee or sesame oil inside of your nostrils before you go outside, create a barrier in this way.

Avoid dairy, and get an oil called "anutailam" from Trihealth or otherwise, nasya oil from Banyan Botanicals. Use a neti pot, then nourish the membranes with the oil. It is important to use the oil after cleansing with neti, because otherwise, you will inflame and dry out the membranes.

A lot of allergies are actually a side effect of weak metabolic heat. So, check with an local experienced Ayurvedic practitioner -- they generally have more experience with allergies than Tibetan doctors at present.

Allergies are an urban illness. They do not affect people raised in the country so much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Sanskrit Romanization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I use a mac.

On the mac, if one uses the the extended keyboard and a unicode font like Gentium, etc., it is easy. A macron is shift+option+a; ś  is s, then type shift+option+e, the ṅ is n, then type shift+option+w; for ṭ  etc, type the retroflex of choice, as well as ṣ  , type letter and then type shift+option+x. For ṛ, same as the last, for ṝ, , type r, then shift+option+x, then shift+option+a. More or less this covers everything. Then for n -- for ṅ, type n, then shift+option+w; for ñ, type n shift+option+n.

These rules apply to both upper and lower case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: Is Nagajuna just fiction
Content:


Rael said:
i recall Namdrol on esangha once  said a lot of stuff is done in the name of the Buddha is similar to all the Hindu teachings done in the name of Krisna...they do that to give it weight is what i surmised from that post in a galaxy a far far far away now...

Malcolm wrote:
There are a group of texts that all are clearly authored by one person. These texts all cover various topics related to, but not necessarily covered in detail in the Mulamadhyamaka Karikas. The person to whom authorship of this group of texts is attributed is one Nāgārjuna.

Nāgārjuna is mentioned by name as being from South India in the Lanka-avatara sūtra. Traditionally, this was held to be a prediction of Nāgārjuna by the Buddha -- western scholars of course tend to think this dates the Lanka's composition after the second century CE.

There a many many texts attributed to Nāgārjuna. It is likely that there were several Nāgārjunas, at least three, not to mention texts authored under his name.

But the collection of texts I mentioned above, the so-called collection of reasoning, as well as three or four praises he wrote, and the Ratnavali and Suhrleka are all certainly by one and the same author, and that person we call Nāgārjuna. His direct disciple, Aryadeva, wrote a supplement to the Mulamadhyamaka Karikas, called 400 Verses, as well as a couple of other minor pieces. These two authors works mentioned above form the core of the so called "Father and Son" Madhyamaka. These texts form the real core of Madhyamaka teachings.

Unfortunately, today most people read Nagarjuna through the lens of the four Tibetan schools, rather than reading Indian Madhyamaka authors themselves.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: No Killing
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Some of what I am hearing makes no sense to me.
namdrol said:
However, the consciousness of the fetus would again find itself in the bardo, where it will experience great suffering, etc.

gregkavarnos said:
As far as I have understood through my studies all samsaric existence is a bardo of one type or another.  Why would the suffering that consciousness experiences during the bardo of death be any less or any more than the suffering experienced during the bardo of life?

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on what you mean by suffering -- the suffering of a fetus in the womb prior to contact is suffering in the sense of the all-pervasive suffering of conditioned phenomena, but this suffering is divorced from sensation.  No one "feels" this kind of suffering.

What I am pointing out is that that until a certain stage, fetuses do not have sensations, and therefore, experience no sensations, for example, as a result of an abortion until they take rebirth in the bardo.

Don't confuse things by introducing the Nyingmapa doctrine of four or six bardos. This is the uncommon bardo teaching of Dzogchen, but this schemata of bardos is not shared with Anutarrayoga tantra on down.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 7:49 AM
Title: Re: No Killing
Content:
Will said:
Another reason killing (of a nacent creature or otherwise) is bad, is because it screws up the immediate karmic future of the being killed.  Whether the being would have gained merit in the life that is now no more or racked up even more demerit or something in between - all is more complicated than usual, karmically speaking.


Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it is the same. The only reason that aborting human beings is worse, is that only human beings can directly become buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
mr. gordo said:
Namdrol, is there anything you can comment upon regarding the Khon Vajrakila practice and Dzogchen?  Is there any relationship between the two even though it's a kama teaching?


Malcolm wrote:
Sure the essence of Vajrakilaya is Dzogchen, and the result of Khon Kilaya should be the state of Dzogchen. There are dzogchen instructions associated with Kohn Kilaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Is Nagajuna just fiction
Content:
Rael said:
ok thanks for this...i was somehow led astray by something Namdrol posted both here and at the other place....


Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you can blame me for leading you astray.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: No Killing
Content:
Pero said:
Doesn't Tibetan medicine says that there's no consciousness till after three months or something like that? So killing the fetus before that would be more or less like cutting down a tree.


Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan Medicine asserts that the sense faculties are not active until the nineteenth week, well into the fifth month. There is a vinaya controversy about wether a monk who causes an abortion (for example, knocking a woman down, etc.) is guilty of the parajika offense of killing a human being. Some hold he would be, others hold he would not be.

Certainly, when the fetus is new, it possesses only three indriyas: consciousness, life force and the body. Lacking sensation indriyas, an abortion would cause no physical pain to the fetus since the five indriyas of sensation do not exist until the nidana of contact arises.

However, the consciousness of the fetus would again find itself in the bardo, where it will experience great suffering, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Bodhidharma & Padampa Sangye. Same person?
Content:
Jikan said:
Well, you've never seen them photographed together, right?

The Phadampa Center website (a group based in California) claims that Padampa Sangye *was* Bodhidharma, that is, the person known as Bodhidharma was Dampa Jakar while teaching in China.  (Evidently, he did teach in China.)

I find this claim unconvincing because the chronology seems off... Bodhidharma was appealed to as an authority in China at least a century before Padampa Sangye was said to have visited China.

Thoughts?


Malcolm wrote:
This is clearly a Tibetan sectarian polemical hagiographical statement. It is not to be taken seriously. Just as the person of Bodhidharma was wildly inflated by the Chinese, so too has the person of Padampa been wildly inflated by Tibetans.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Buddha Shakyamuni did not hold back anything when teaching the Dharma.  He boasts this several times, about Himself and about His teaching. Tantrikas and vajrayanists do not seem to understand this statement, which is a great pity.

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamuni did not hold anything back. But this does not mean he taught everything to everyone.

He taught was useful to his students at that time and that place, without holding anything back. Those teachings are the ones contained in the Agamas and Pali Canon.

You seem to forget that Shakyamuni also compared what he taught to his disciples with a handful of leaves, and compared what he knew with all the leaves in a forest.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Oh, probably longer than that. That nirodhasamapatti is permanent in the sense that when an arhats enters that kind of suspended animation, he has no particular intention of rousing from it again.

Mariusz said:
Don't trivialize it, please. It does not change the topic. Arhats can be in the state of non return by theirs own "power" alone, without any help from Buddhas. Moreover they will never return to Samsara but are "awaken" for Mahayana Buddhahood only, as I remeber. Is really ending of universe has something to do with it?

Malcolm wrote:
It is basically useless to try and explain anything on an internet forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
conebeckham said:
I've heard this said or quote before but...after "3 incalculable eons" or something, right, Namdrol?


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, probably longer than that. That nirodhasamapatti is permanent in the sense that when an arhats enters that kind of suspended animation, he has no particular intention of rousing from it again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:



Namdrol said:
Even the arhat path leads to buddhahood, the question is, how long?

Mariusz said:
Not kidding? I guess this qustion could be only from Thirtika's eternalistic or nihilistic point of view.


Malcolm wrote:
The arhat path leads to buddhahood because arhats are roused from nirodhasamapatti by a Buddha and placed into the bodhisattva path.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
Namdrol, do you feel that Mahamudra does not lead to full and complete enlightenment? If so what aspect of lack thereof do you feel prevents if from doing so?

Also, what aspect of aspects of Dzogchen lead to complete and full enlightenment as you say is not the case with some other systems?

Thanks


Malcolm wrote:
Even the arhat path leads to buddhahood, the question is, how long?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: No Killing
Content:
shel said:
I heard ya. You weren't sure that making abortion illegal is effective. Well, statistically it is proven effective. There are less abortions where abortion is illegal. Studies suggest that there is also more crime where abortion is illegal.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, where abortion is illegal there are less legal abortions. Where abortion is illegal, all abortions are crimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Most people think that Buddhahood is irrersible; Dzogchen on the other hand asserts that the buddhahood of the lower yanas is reverts into the basis, and only Dzogchen results in complete and irreversible buddhahood.
N

Mariusz said:
How it is possible?
Is it somehow related to “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) which can be "broken" even after the buddhahood, when from it will arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) and they will be not spontaneously accomplished (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) because of Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) again?


Malcolm wrote:
It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Heruka said:
i once read that the bhumis relate to the stages and development of a fetus in the womb.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is another metaphor found not only in Dzogchen, but also in Kalacakra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
"therefore, basic space- naturally occuring timeless awareness-is referred to as the ground when distortions are involved, as the path when they are being refined away, and as the fruition when all of these limitless distortions have been removed.  It is extremely important to distinguish between the terms "the ground of being" and "the level of freedom".  These days, however, such previse analyses are few."
Longchempa in treasury of philosphical intructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, that self-originated wisdom (rang byung ye shes, svayambhu jñāna) is never modified or altered in anyway, present from the very beginning in all sentient beings individually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Poll: Do You Practice in English or Tibetan?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan, Sanskrit, and Oddiyāna language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
Also Namdrol,
Before I mentioned about people who thought they were going to attain the rainbow body having to get to the first bhumi first, which involves progressing through the experiences of all the stages of the path of accumulation and also the stages of the path of preparation.  You went on to say that Dzogchen doesn't really follow the path of the stages (gradual)- an assertion I don't agree with for many reasons.  Then you mention that dzogchen has 3 extra bhumis- sure sure of course then dzogchen makes more use of stages then even the other vehicles haha... also why the fuss of making correspondences between the four stages of the vidyadhara and the bhumis...


Malcolm wrote:
You gave to understand that there is a passage in the rigpa rangshar which delineates these paths and stages, but they are not the real paths and stages according to the vehicles of cause and result. They are just names for progress in the four visions. So for example, when has knowledge of rigpa initially, this is called "Pramudita". But this does not mean that person has realized emptiness (that does not occur until the third vision). So these paths and stages named in Dzogchen just serve as metaphors. Thus Zhabkar states:

"Though these stages are individually divided  out of the apparent aspect
of the single stage (upon which there is no progress or training)
of the luminosity of the fundamental vidyā;
in reality, the stage of vidyā is single
but there is no need for specific training on causal stages
for obtaining the stage of Buddha Mahāvajradhara.
The manner of obtaining each stage through the stages
of the cause and result of the common vehicles,
likewise the stage obtained through the effort and practice
of creation and completion according to outer and inner secret mantra,
here do not exist as [stages] upon which to train or make progress.

In reality, all vehicles are included, and the paths and stages are complete
within the single stage of one’s pure vidyā."

So you can disagree with Zhabkar, etc. if you like.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


tamdrin said:
Many many other masters point out that the difference lies in the path or method not in the base or fruit..


Malcolm wrote:
There are two ways these things are explained, the common way, which accords with lower vehicles, in which the basis and the result are more or less the same.

Then there is the uncommon way Dzogchen explains these things, in which the basis and the result are different from that of the lower vehicles.

For example, in general, the nine yānas approach is to assert that all-basis is dharmakāya. In the special Dzogchen view, asserting that dharmakāya is the ālaya is a "Buddhist deviation". In Dzogchen, the ālaya is, as stated in the Mind Tantra of Vajrasattva:

The all-basis is the bardo of everything,
unconsciousness, unclear, and inexpressible.

The example for the ālaya is space. The example for the dharmakāya is celestial bodies.

So you see, it is really not so simple as proclaiming that the basis and the result are the same for all schools, only the result differs.

For example, the Samputa maintains there is a distinct different in omniscience between an eleventh and twelfth stage buddha, and a thirteenth stage Buddha. Related to this, Dzogchen refers to the 13-16 bhumis as those that "dwell in wisdom". Why? Because only 13th stage Vajradhara's on up understand that all appearances are the display of their own wisdom.

Most people think that Buddhahood is irrersible; Dzogchen on the other hand asserts that the buddhahood of the lower yanas is reverts into the basis, and only Dzogchen results in complete and irreversible buddhahood.

These are the kinds of things you discover when you read Vima Nyingthig, Khandro Nyingthig, Gongpa Zangthal, the Seventeen tantras and so on.

The later in Tibetan history you go, the more homogenized the presentation of the four schools becomes. When you exam the texts of the Pre-Sarma period, then you find Dzogchen is really very different from what was introduced from India during the time of Rinchen Zangpo onwards.

Dzogchen did not spread widely in India, neither did anuyoga. The main tantric teaching of India was Yoga Tantra/Mahayoga.

Many masters to not present whole picture of Dzogchen. HHDL's agenda, which I respect, is to bring harmony to all schools.

My interest is a little different -- I am interested in what makes Dzogchen so unique and so powerful. I know the difference between what is commonly stated as a nice political thing so Sakyas, Gelugpas and Sarma-oriented Kagyus  don't feel bad, and what the real teachings of Dzogchen say, but are not so publicized. I don't owe allegiance to any school. My interest these days in particular is solely anuyoga and Dzogchen teachings.

That being said, don't think that I consider Lamdre, etc., as lacking depth, efficacy, or profundity -- they are profound, interesting, and wonderful teachings. I just think Dzogchen is more profound, more efficacious, and deeper. This is just my opinion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Of course it is like this. Still as Nyingma practitioner the main view I been thought is from the Nyinthik tradition. The way to practice Mahayoga that I been taught is to aim for the inseparable two stages, as for example taught by Karmey Khenpo in his commentary on the Mawey Senge sadhana, Brilliant light, from Tukdruk Barche Kunsel. There is also an other text from that Terma where Guru Rinpoche says that the practice of Dzogrim in this tradition should be Semde.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and this is something which has been repeated by ChNN (so much for radical Dzogchen).


heart said:
The two stage in this context combine Dzogchen view and Mahayoga means. This seems to me to be the same meaning as for example Mipham has in his commentary on the Guhyagharba, Luminous emptiness, where he condense the commentaries of Longchenpa and Rongzom Pandita on the Guhyaghrabha.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, this is the system of three stages -- creation, completion, dzogchen.


heart said:
So even if there are no two stages in Dzogchen, Dzogchen can be a part of the two stages in Mahayoga. This is a very practical and helpful approach but of course Dzogchen should also be practiced according to its own methods as a main path.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as I have said many times. So we are in agreement on two counts (finally, actually don't know that we disagreed really): one Mahayoga and Anuyoga take Dzogchen as result, Dzogchen can be approached this way.

Two, Dzogchen is an independent path with its own means.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2011 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
Excuse me, I was asking you, why Mahayoga is superior to HYT, although the same two stages?


Malcolm wrote:
Not really the same with respect to the two stages. Mahayoga has three stages; creation stage (bskyed rim), completion stage (rdzogs rim), and the great perfection (rdzogs pa chen po).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
pemachophel said:
Narraboth,

What is the name of the wang which empowers one to read any text, lung or no lung? Sounds like something useful to ask for at an appropriate time and place.


Malcolm wrote:
It is called the poti lung dbang or " text transmission empowerment ". It is the system of Sangye Lingpa, coming from the Lama Gondu cycle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2011 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Reconsiderations on Not-Really-Buddhism
Content:
Rael said:
i reject all such until there are verified enlightened beings...everyone else is just one or two shades up or below.....


Namdrol said:
Not even the Buddha was a "verified" enlightened being.

Rael said:
i should have made clear that it would have to be a face to face....

Malcolm wrote:
Not even then. Countless people met the Buddha and had no idea he was any different than countless other teachers.


Rael said:
usually someone who knocks me for me grammar....clue one...the person is tainted .....

Malcolm wrote:
You don't blame yourself for seeing defects in others. Why then should you hold others to a different standard and blame them when they point out to you your own defects, whether of character, deed or even grammar?

Rael said:
now my criteria for enlightenment is such...and i know it when i see it when i spend enough time with someone if they are....

Malcolm wrote:
Until you yourself are an awakened person, you will not be able ascertain the awakening of others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Reconsiderations on Not-Really-Buddhism
Content:
Rael said:
i reject all such until there are verified enlightened beings...everyone else is just one or two shades up or below.....


Malcolm wrote:
Not even the Buddha was a "verified" enlightened being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Aemilius said:
About Abhisheka
According to certain authorities there is formal initiation and informal intitation (abhisheka).
I would not have believed that  people really believe that placing objects on their heads is the all-decisive thing!  But this seems to be the case, is  it?

Malcolm wrote:
Abhisheka is method of arranging the dependent origination of a person's basis with the result so the result can be taken as the path. This is the unique feature of abhisheka in Vajrayana.



Aemilius said:
Chogyam Trungpa refused to give abhishekas for a long time, he said that everything a true Guru does is an abhisheka.

Malcolm wrote:
he gave them a lot early on, then stopped because he saw that people were only relating to them as a kind of ritual, not understanding the real meaning.

However, in his Vajrayāna seminaries he always gave a transmission called "direct introction" which is characteristic of Kagyu Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Aemilius said:
In Dhagpo Kayu Ling Gelongma Rinchen said that Initiation means that you are taught a spiritual practice. She said that even teaching Tongleng is  an initiation in the full sense of the word.

Malcolm wrote:
Teaching someone a practice is not an abhisheka. There is no initiation for tonglen, since it is sutrayāna. Merely teaching someone a practice is not an "initiation". You either misunderstood what she meant, or she is wrong.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The thirty seven bodhipaksha dharmas do not imply that there was Vajrayana present in Buddhism from earliest times.

Chanda simply means that one desires one-pointed concentration. It does not mean that one is taking sexual intercourse, food, etc., onto the path.

N

Aemilius said:
If Chanda were just what you say the Four Bases would be just any normal path of morality, meditation & wisdom. The case is that this is the special path that produces the supernormal powers, and here Chanda has more meaning than elsewhere. People who know what are the real bases of miraculous powers would know this, like Suniti K Pathak. This topic is somewhat esoteric, if you think that you can fly in space through mindfulness of breathing it is up to you ofcourse.

Malcolm wrote:
Samadhi alone produces supernormal powers. There is no transmutation of passion implied in chanda. The four iddhipadas are parts of samadhi. That's it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
BTW, all this endless taxonomy is not really that useless for your practice.

Pero said:
You actually mean it's not that useful right?

Malcolm wrote:
indeed


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:58 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Posted here from another thread...

Namdrol said:
Then you will be awfully surprised when you read the texts I have read.

N

Mariusz said:
What texts?


Malcolm wrote:
well, for example, the " The Essence of the Critical Point of Memory " in the Vima Nyinthig, has a footnote on this passage "Though one seeks vidyā with words, the meaning is not touched..." that says "Through the assertions of the nine yānas".

For example, in a teaching of Shri Singha to Vairocana found in the dgongs pa zang thal, the three inner tantras are listed as follows: mahāyoga, anuyoga and the view of the mahāmudra of non-dual appearance and emptiness. Following this, Dzogchen is listed separately from the nine yanas.

Or there is a tantra called The Self-Arisen Great Perfection from the Kadag Rangjung Rangshar which states:

I demonstrated the definitive meaning, the self-originated primordial wisdom
for those of the best fortune. 
I demonstrated the Dharmas of the nine vehicles
for those of medium fortune.
I demonstrated the outer Dharma of the provisional meaning
for those with average fortune.

And there is an interesting text in the Gongpa Zangthal called The Mind Tantra of Vajrasattva which extensively differentiates the great perfection from the nine yanas. It begins:

In the demonstration of the eight intimate instructions that are superior to the nine yānas, the intention of all teachings of the great perfection...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:28 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Namdrol,

Re: the original question about what characteristics make a Buddhist teaching "tantra," what about the ten topics (i.e. empowerment, mandala, samaya, offerings, etc) as mentioned in the Guhyagarbha, among tantras? Or does the complete list only pertain to anuttarayoga tantra?


Namdrol said:
The ten tattvas which make a teachings a guhyamantra teaching are valid in general. All tantric systems have some kind of samaya, but not necessarily the 22 samayas of HYT.

Pema Rigdzin said:
So basically this settles it, then? If a teaching does not include these ten aspects, it is not tantra? (Keep in mind I'm including Dzogchen in this because of its own explanation about how these are primordially complete)


Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:26 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW, all this endless taxonomy is not really that useful for your practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:25 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
Excuse me, I was asking you, why Mahayoga is superior to HYT, although the same two stages?


Malcolm wrote:
Because the view of nyingma mahayoga is dzogchen. In other words, HYT is more or less dependent on Madhyamaka for its view. Mahayoga takes its view from Dzogchen, specifically the Dzogchen as presented in the Guhyagarbha tantra, exemplified in the rosary of views intimate instruction. The main difference between mahayoga in this respect, however, and Anuyoga, is that Mahayoga takes the Dzogchen to be the result (more like mahamudra as conceived in Sakya) as presented in the sems sde system. Anuyoga takes Dzogchen as the basis.

Still we have to distinguish that while ground mahāmudra of the Kagyu school and sems sde bear some similarities, they also end in Sems sde. It is the opinion of ChNN that the four yogas of mahāmudra were borrowed from sems sde by Gampopa, and certainly he was a Nyingma practitioner before he met Milarepa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: The thicket of views
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
'Scuse me if I am wrong but maybe the nama-rupa combination is just for human and animal existence?  Even in Theravadra there exist formless realms (god realms for example) where mind exists without dependence on form.  Or am I mistaken?

Malcolm wrote:
In early Theravada, it is asserted that formless realm beings have a very subtle form.

Also, in Dzogchen it is asserted that formless realm beings actually have subtle form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:12 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Hi Magnus:

The point is that inner tantras, nyingma mahayoga and anuyoga, have Dzogchen as their aim. But this does not mean that Dzogchen itself does not find these inner tantra approaches wanting in all respects. For example, there is the famous citation from Kunbyed Gyalpo.

Of course a practitioner of Dzogchen can practice whatever he or she likes or needs. But at base, Dzogchen practice is not involved with the two stages. The other day ChNN stated that even Anuyoga is not really predicated on the two stages.

Mariusz said:
So why Mahayoga which contains the two stages leads to the realization of Rigpa but HYT which has also these two stages does not lead to it?

Malcolm wrote:
Clear light and rigpa are not the same thing. But rigpa and self-originated wisdom are the same thing.

I never stated that practicing HYT does not lead to awakening. But you have to understand that HYT is a gradual path. Dzogchen is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:05 PM
Title: Re: Tulku Urgyen
Content:
Mariusz said:
More on analogies between Dzogchen of 9 yanas and HYT. As for my later post the note 25 of the book said:

Atiyoga is taught to practitioners of mahayoga and anuyoga who are attached to
effort and striving toward a goal; it is the way to self-liberate that attachment.
What is set forth in this citation is not a direct relationship between mahayoga,
anuyoga, and atiyoga and the mother tantra, father tantra, and nondual tantra of the
new schools but is instead a simple analogy: Just as father tantra emphasizes the phase of
generation, and mother tantra, the phase of completion, mahayoga emphasizes the phase
of generation, anuyoga, the phase of completion, and so on.

I have never found such thing as "Dzogchen outside 9 yanas". All teachings of Buddhism are included in 9 yanas. For me all teachings of Buddhism should be taken as a whole.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you will be awfully surprised when you read the texts I have read.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Namdrol,

Re: the original question about what characteristics make a Buddhist teaching "tantra," what about the ten topics (i.e. empowerment, mandala, samaya, offerings, etc) as mentioned in the Guhyagarbha, among tantras? Or does the complete list only pertain to anuttarayoga tantra?


Malcolm wrote:
The ten tattvas which make a teachings a guhyamantra teaching are valid in general. All tantric systems have some kind of samaya, but not necessarily the 22 samayas of HYT.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 4:57 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Never mind all the various categorizations that one can do about the various Tantras, they can for sure look like a bad fit like Namdrol says. But once you achieved the ultimate result , who knows what your experience of the various Tantras are. After all, all these text are there just to make us realize what our confused mind really is, nothing else. It also occurred to me that, particularly in the Termas, everything is a bit mixed. Ati combined with Maha, Maha containing Ati instructions, Maha but the sadhana is Anu and so on. Also when Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche gave the Lama Gondu he said "this is a wonderful and complete Terma. It contains complete instructions on the three inner Tantras and are not incomplete like other Termas. Some only contain a little piece of Maha or Anu or Ati, almost none are complete like this." That is also a perspective worth contemplating. But most Nyingthik tradition has Ngondro and Yidams, the 17 Tantras mention Yidams, Longchenpa added various Guru, Yidam and Dakini practices to the Vima and Khandro Nyingthik. Thinks are not as clear-cut as one would like in order to make everything fit in the ladder perspective of things. How about this thought: The nine yanas are not a ladder?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Magnus:

The point is that inner tantras, nyingma mahayoga and anuyoga, have Dzogchen as their aim. But this does not mean that Dzogchen itself does not find these inner tantra approaches wanting in all respects. For example, there is the famous citation from Kunbyed Gyalpo.

Of course a practitioner of Dzogchen can practice whatever he or she likes or needs. But at base, Dzogchen practice is not involved with the two stages. The other day ChNN stated that even Anuyoga is not really predicated on the two stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 4:50 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


tamdrin said:
Ok but the basis is the basis.  All the Buddhist practices in the tantras are supposed to lead to the basis of the mind which is the Dharmakaya which is Buddhahood.  The fact that they use different terms doesn't mean that they are talking about a different ontological thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The basis for one system is not always the the basis for another system. For example, the basis in Dzogchen teachings is not the mind.

Dzogchen distinguishes various kinds of basis depending on whether we are talking about sems sde, klong sde or man ngag sde.

So in Dzogchen man ngag sde the basis is vidyā (rig pa), and not mind. Mind is an adventitious obscuration to be given up. As Longchenpa states in the Lama Yangthig:

"The essence of mind is the all-basis and the group of eight. The essence of vidyā is beyond the all-basis and the group of eight."

So you cannot be hasty and just lump everything together in a sort of a putanesca sauce of teachings.

Dzogchen is not easy. It is very subtle, and so hard to understand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 4:20 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Suniti K. Pathak doesn't  really spell it out what he means. He presumes too much, namely that people would understand from a mere hint that the path of the Four Legs of Miraculous Powers utilizes desire and passion.  One of the four legs is even called Chanda, that is Desire. Because this teaching exists in the Theravada and Mahayana canons, it is an evidence that the path of tantra or utilizing the passions existed already in the early buddhism.This is what he says by implication.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Wings To Awakening has a good description of the Path of  Four Bases Of Miraculous Power that consists of passages taken from the Suttas.  That it is a path in itself is quite clear from it.

Malcolm wrote:
The thirty seven bodhipaksha dharmas do not imply that there was Vajrayana present in Buddhism from earliest times.

Chanda simply means that one desires one-pointed concentration. It does not mean that one is taking sexual intercourse, food, etc., onto the path.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 9:20 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
tamdrin said:
Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.
The Gelugpas don't. The Sakyas explicitly do. In fact, they do so to the point that you might consider a little extreme. Gorampa's perspective is that the pointing out in the third and fourth empowerments makes one's post-meditation view irrelevant, whether Cittamatra or Madhyamaka, since the experience of pointing out and the sadhana method ensure correct view while practicing.

What the Sakyas do not accept that is the idea that someone who has not received the four empowerments is a suitable candidate for pointing out.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 9:10 AM
Title: Re: Lamdre.
Content:
Namdrol said:
But it helps.

narraboth said:
Do you feel that 3 years retreat helped your practice or mind a lot?


Malcolm wrote:
My retreat was a wonderful experience. Should do it again. Only this time I would focus exclusively on Dzogpa Chenpo.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
That is not how it is presented in the Treasury of Philosophical Instructions. Nyingma and Sarma Tantras are discussed separately.


Malcolm wrote:
I am searching for citation. The citation I have in mind is one where he refers to Hevajra as an outer tantra.

I agree that in shing rta chen po, grub mtha' mdzod, he gives the division set forth by Rangjung Dorje of:

maha = father
anu = mother
non-dual = ati.

But it does not really follow if you analyze well even Nyingma mahayoga.

And yes, he also covers sarma and snying ma seperately -- however he does not present father, mother and non-dual tantra as equivalents with maha, anu and ati in the sarma section. He only presents this scheme in the rnyingma section of grub mtha' mdzod. You can check, sarma inner tantra section starts on 1095; nyingma inner tantra starts on 1110. He gives a citation from the seng ge rtsal rdzogs:

"Creation mahāyoga is like the basis of dharmas,
Agama anu yoga is like the path of dharmas, 
perfected atiyoga is like the result of dharmas."

But moreover, most of the tantras we normally consider mahayoga tantras, such as the eight pronouncements, Yamantaka, Hayagriva, Yangdag, etc. are listed by Longchenpa as anuyoga tantras -- normally people are accustomed to thinking of these deities as Mahāyoga cycles.

Another feature that Longchenpa mentions is that creation is present in Anuyoga, but deemphasized. This is not the case with mother tantra in HYT. He mentions none of the root tantras one might expect for Mahāyoga, namely Guhyagarbha, etc.

And of course he states that in Dzogchen, there is no creation stage whatsoever, pg. 1121:

"The essence of the dhātu of luminous natural great perfection is self-originated wisdom. Here, since there no cause and result of an object to create or an agent creating along with conditions, it has always existed [ye nas yod pa] as nature like space."

Moreover, we cannot consider this similar in anyway to the non-dual tantras of Hevajra because on page 1122 Longchenpa explicitly rejects that in Dzogchen there is any cause and result or that the basis can made into a path:

"Since there is no cause and result in the essence [ngo bo, svarūpa), it cannot be determined to be samsara or nirvana at all. Since whatever arises is made into a basis, that which is the wide open space of the dhātu and wisdom, or the source or foundation of all phenomena, is the basis. The lower vehicles that engage in effort, practice, accepting, rejecting deviate through dualities and are obscured. Further, if is claimed that "...since the basis is made into a path, it is a path"; since the basis is uncontrived and unaltered, it cannot be made into a mere thing, the basis cannot be made into a path, thus a basis and a path are in contradiction..."

In Vajrayana in general, the basis, which consists of the five aggregates, five sense objects, and so on are made into the path. In Dzogchen, the basis i.e.the uncontrived nature of the mind that is like space, to paraphrase Longchenpa, does not need fabrication or alteration -- creation and completion conceived in the HYT system are precisely alterations. So one can never say that non-dual tantra in sarma schools are equivalent with Dzogchen.

In general, such formulas lead to more confusion than clarity since they are badly misunderstood, in my opinion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N


tamdrin said:
This is not really true.  Longchempa said for Sarma any empowerment that contains the full 4 empowerments is HYT as opposed to lower tantra which only has 1 or 2 empowerments I think.  Also that if the deity is practiced in yabyum it is HYT solo deities are lower tantra.  Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, you did not understand -- Longchenpa distinguishes between outer tantra i.e. kriya, carya, yoga and anuttarayoga tantra (which by earlier classification can actually be classified under yoga tantra) and inner tantra  i.e. mahayoga, anuyoga and atiyoga.

I

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Are plants sentient?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
There are teachings though which "forbid" monks from needlessly destroying vegetation or digging around in the dirt.


Malcolm wrote:
This is because they might harm creatures who live in the soil or are who have made homes in foliage, etc. In other words, plants, from an Indo-Tibetan Buddhist point of view, while alive, are not sentient. They are part of the container. But the container must be respected, as well as the contents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Are plants sentient?
Content:
JeffC said:
Is there is simple answer to this?

Jellyfish do not have 'brains' but are sentient beings.  They have basic reactions for survival, but that is true of plants as well.

Thank you,
Jeff


Malcolm wrote:
For the sake of Vegans, I hope not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Posted here because it is not really on topic elsewhere.

Mariusz said:
"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].


Namdrol said:
This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

heart said:
Well Tulku Urgyen wouldn't get along with a lot of things ChNN says. Still, the got along very fine and ChNN used to visit Tulku Urgyen when he was in Kathmandu. Interesting, no?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
It's the sort of statment that does not stand up to analysis very well. The reason it is repeated so often is that it is a sort of political statement made first by the third Karmapa.

one: mahayoga has two stages
two: anuyoga is does not really have two stages
three: there is no explanation of the basis that corresponds with Dzogchen teachings in Anuttarayoga tantra. But this explanation does exist in Anuyoga.

For example, I practiced Hevajra for many years. This is considered one of the two "non-dual tantra", the other is Kalacakra.

I can assure you, there is no atiyoga in the Hevajra systems extant in the world today (who knows what is in the Hevajra in 500,000 lines). Hevajra is based completely on the two stages. Of course there are some statements in the Hevajra which resemble statements in Sem sde. Certainly Hevajra is the basis of the idea of sahaja, certainly the final goal of Hevajra is mahāmudra, and there is no doubt that Hevajra is profound. But, I have some expertise in this tantra, I also know Dzogchen pretty well. Saying that the non-dual tantras equal atiyoga is really a stretch; there is no anuyoga in it, let along atiyoga. But it is a nice politic thing to say which makes people in the new translation schools feel better.

Mipham seemed to feel that the wisdom chapter of the Kalacakra was equivalent to thogal. But Dudjom Rinpoche rejects this idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
Well Sönam in the 17 tantras of the Instruction section there is yidam practice. There is also things like prostrations, mandala offerings, guru yoga and so on I been told. How do you explain that if it is your opinion that yidam practice belong to the lower yanas?
Also it always been obvious, to me at least, that the Kunjed Gyalpo teaches in a way that can only be understood fully by very seasoned mahayoga practioners.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Magnus:

I think you are referring the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma rgyud. This tantras has a fully articulated preliminaries etc., up to thogal, and is mentions  Hayagriva/Vajrayogini for the deity. It is the root tantra for which the Khandro Nyinthig is the main commentary.

I have seen mention of Vajravarahi pratice in the commentary of sgra thal gyur attributed to Vimalamitra, but there is no deity yoga practice per se, as far as I am aware, in any of the standard seventeen tantras.

As for the Vima Nyinthig, again there is no explicitly mentioned deity practice that I have noticed, but I have not read all of it. Of course, one might consider the three roots in Lama Yangthig as connected.

Generally however, the deity retreats in these systems never amount to more than 7 days to 21 days.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Tulku Urgyen
Content:
Mariusz said:
"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].


Malcolm wrote:
This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: The thicket of views
Content:


TMingyur said:
Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
The point of dharma is give sight to the blind, not lead them, still blind, along a path to a destination they still can't see.

This thread is just a bunch of useless verbal proliferation.

In this case, there is no use in getting involved in this briar patch.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Astus said:
. If there is a need to refresh Buddhist philosophy it should be done based on proper foundation in the Buddha's teachings. When it is done based on others' interpretations that is already following a lineage, a school.

Namdrol said:
The problem with Buddhist Philosophy is Buddhist Philosophy. There is only one way to "refresh" the teachings -- realization.

Rael said:
as in mish mashing Sunyata teachings with your knowledge of of misleading Sunyata teachings all in one formula....

taking things that point directly to it...

followed by things said by Nargajuna not to use.....all in one unexplained paragraph....


Malcolm wrote:
Rael -- what I said was perfectly correct -- non-empty phenomena are non-dependent. That does not mean there are such phenomena. This is why Nagarjuna also makes statements to precisely the same effect. The point is that if there were something that was not empty, it would also be non-dependent. Since we do not see, experience or otherwise encounter such non-dependent phenomena, we can rule them out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Namdrol said:
The problem with Buddhist Philosophy is Buddhist Philosophy. There is only one way to "refresh" the teachings -- realization.

Astus said:
But I assume you don't mean that since the 15th century there has been no enlightened being in Tibetan Buddhism, do you?


Malcolm wrote:
No, however, a lot more people would have been realized if they had not been obsessed with schools and philosophy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Vegetarianism vs. Veganism
Content:
KeithBC said:
Huseng, first of all, congratulations on your decision to go vegan.  I totally agree with your reasoning.

Animal husbandry is a form of slavery.  Gone are the days when "good Christian" owners of human slaves could justify human slavery on the grounds that they treated their slaves well.  As Buddhists, we consider all sentient beings to be of equal value.  It follows that, if keeping human slaves, however well treated, is wrong, then so is the keeping of animal slaves.


Malcolm wrote:
So, no pets than either, correct?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2011 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Vegetarianism vs. Veganism
Content:
Namdrol said:
One Buddhist argument I've heard from Chinese Buddhists in particular is that the consumption of eggs and milks entails a violation of the precept prohibiting theft.
The Buddha never made such an argument.

Huseng said:
Sure, but commentary literature on Bodhisattva precepts (particularly on the Chinese Brahma Net Sutra) discuss this as it relates to the prohibitions concerning trading and raising animals.

Malcolm wrote:
For me, this is not an important sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Astus said:
. If there is a need to refresh Buddhist philosophy it should be done based on proper foundation in the Buddha's teachings. When it is done based on others' interpretations that is already following a lineage, a school.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with Buddhist Philosophy is Buddhist Philosophy. There is only one way to "refresh" the teachings -- realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Vegetarianism vs. Veganism
Content:
Huseng said:
Given that much of the meat consumed in our present day is a result of grotesque and ghoulish industrialized cruelty, it follows that the Bodhisattva aspirant would avoid directly supporting such an economy as much as possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. Don't by commercial agricultural products at all.


Huseng said:
The problem for the vegetarian is that milk and eggs are produced in a likewise fashion.

Malcolm wrote:
Not all.

Huseng said:
Dairy cows are often pumped full of steroids to increase milk production beyond natural levels. The cow's calf is likely to be taken away and turned into veal.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what farm you buy your milk from.

Huseng said:
If a cow stops producing milk they are slaughtered.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. But yes, sometimes.

Huseng said:
Hens used for egg production are more often than not crammed into cages and slaughtered when they cease producing eggs. Even free range hens will be removed and killed when they cease producing eggs as a result of old age or illness.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on how local your eggs are.

Huseng said:
In some ways dairy cattle and hens face worse fates than cows and chickens raised specifically for their meat.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends.

Huseng said:
So, does it not follow that it is best to abstain from dairy and eggs as well?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Huseng said:
One Buddhist argument I've heard from Chinese Buddhists in particular is that the consumption of eggs and milks entails a violation of the precept prohibiting theft.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha never made such an argument.

Huseng said:
For these reasons I've personally decided to go vegan.

Malcolm wrote:
The most important thing here is observe whether you are healthy or not.

I would recommend instead you adopt more of a south Indian style diet. It is more balanced. Vedic eating, if you will.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 8:42 AM
Title: Re: The thicket of views
Content:
conebeckham said:
Out of compassion?

TMingyur said:
When a "real" blind man who cannot see asks you how to get to the railway station that you can see because you are not blind, would you then point to the station that you can see using your hand's finger and say "There it is"?

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
The only reason a blind man (sentient being) knows there is a train station at is is that someone sighted (a buddha) informed him of the fact. They of course then provide the means (the path of cultivation, seeing, etc.) to get to the train station (nirvana).

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
tamdrin said:
some people practice but according to Wallace's reading of the Buddhist scriptures in general it is important to cultivate shamatha up to and approaching the first dhyana to be succesful in the other practices in general and this level of concentration is not easy to achieve,


Malcolm wrote:
There is shamatha and then there is shamatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Not all Kagye cycles are mahāyoga. Which one do you mean?

N

Mariusz said:
Your right. I mean those with anu and ati yoga. Nevertheless it is ati yoga of 9 yanas, it is not Dzogchen outside 9 yanas. Is it not?


Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

However, the rigpa they are referring to is the same thing. However, clear light of HYT is not rigpa. The term clear light is used in a different way in Dzogchen as well.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
tamdrin said:
Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published!  Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.


Namdrol said:
Yes, it does -- so do a thousand others.

kirtu said:
Then "let 1000 rainbow bodies bloom!" to paraphrase another text.  "Why aren't they blooming?" was asked of Wallace himself in an interview a while ago.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
People don't practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Britain to blame for worlds troubles
Content:
Caz said:
There are no solutions to samsara in samsaric means.


Malcolm wrote:
There are solutions, just not permanent ones. Still, you take medicine when you are sick, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: The thicket of views
Content:


TMingyur said:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).


Namdrol said:
What defines "true" buddhism?

TMingyur said:
I borrowed Raels words.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
If you are convinced that Mahayana is not "true" buddhism, what is?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: The thicket of views
Content:


TMingyur said:
No I am honest ... listen ... I am convinced that Mahayana can be "true Buddhism" (to borrow your words).


Malcolm wrote:
What defines "true" buddhism?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
tamdrin said:
Hi Heart,
Yes I am glad to hear that it is being published!  Scarily enough I have seen parts of it are published by the controversial group (i think they are) american buddha, and can be found by doing a google. search.. Alan Wallace is big into it yes and he has done the translation.. He said this text has everything one would need to achieve the rainbow body.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does -- so do a thousand others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
please be patient. If Clear light in Highest Yoga Tantra, Ordinary Mind in Mahamudra Tantra and Rigpa in Dzogchen present evidently "the same nature of mind" and we can recognize it immediately, why are you writing that Dzogchen is different "outside" these Tantras (HYT or Maha Yoga, Mahamudra)?


Namdrol said:
Because rigpa in Dzogchen and 'od gsal in HYT are not the same thing.

N

Mariusz said:
Is Rigpa in Dzogchen and Rigpa in Maha Yoga (equivalent of HYT) not the same thing? For example 8 Kagye initations of Maha Yoga contain also Rigpa.


Malcolm wrote:
Not all Kagye cycles are mahāyoga. Which one do you mean?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Britain to blame for worlds troubles
Content:
Caz said:
People are always looking for something to blame, Funnily enough they never look for solutions...


Malcolm wrote:
In order to cure someone of a disease, one must first ascertain why they have it. As long as the disease's cause remains undiagnosed, the disease cannot be cured.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
please be patient. If Clear light in Highest Yoga Tantra, Ordinary Mind in Mahamudra Tantra and Rigpa in Dzogchen present evidently "the same nature of mind" and we can recognize it immediately, why are you writing that Dzogchen is different "outside" these Tantras (HYT or Maha Yoga, Mahamudra)?


Malcolm wrote:
Because rigpa in Dzogchen and 'od gsal in HYT are not the same thing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Britain to blame for worlds troubles
Content:
plwk said:
Israel?


Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, and India, China, Burma, S. Agfrica, Iraq, Afghanistan...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Can you elaborate?


Malcolm wrote:
There are many theories of how mantras work. However, at basis, if you do some long retreat on a wisdom deity, any retreat, and gains signs of success, then chances of these others kinds of mantras working for you are much better.

At any rate, this is my personal experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
So what is the point? Is really Clear Light or Ordinary Mind not "self-liberated" but "transformed"?


Namdrol said:
Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. What I was referring to was the principal of Dzogchen that is beyond the nine yanas.

Mariusz said:
Sorry Namdrol, but it is not the answer of the same kind of question: how Dzogchen "self-liberation path" is not like Tantra "the transformation path" but beyond this tantra (9 yanas).


Malcolm wrote:
I really do not understand your question. I know you are not a native speaker of english. Please rewrite in a more understandable form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Britain to blame for worlds troubles
Content:
KwanSeum said:
David Cameron has suggested that Britain and the legacy of its empire was responsible for many of the world's historic problems ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/a-world-of-troubles-ndash-all-made-in-britain-2264328.html ).

Discuss.


Malcolm wrote:
This is a no-brainer for anyone who has studied history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Namdrol,
In your opinion does the hocus pocus of using various mantras to attract a worldly boon work?

Malcolm wrote:
If you produce the function of mantra in your speech, then mantras work. They do not have any magic power of their own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The Avatamsaka sutra is not found in the rgyud sde of the Kangyur, I can assure you since I have access to several versions. There is a two volume collection at the end of the rgyud sde where all dharanis from both sutra and tantra are collected. The dharanis in the Avatamska are also found there.

The abhisheka mentioned in the Dasabhumi sutra and the Lanka-avatara is only bestowed upon tenth stage bodhisattvas. It is not a method that is taught for ordinary people.

These kinds of misconceptions have been put to bed by Indian tantric scholars 1200 years ago. Tripitikamala is one person you should read to understand the difference between sutra and tantras, as well as many others.

Aemilius said:
You should read Lankavatara Sutra Chapter 2.40 ;Two kinds Of Buddha's Sustaining Power (Adhisthana)

This subchapter is about two and half pages, the verse at its the end goes:
163.The sustaining power is purified by the Buddhas'  vows; in the baptism, Samadhis,etc., from the first to the tenth stage, the bodhisattvas are in the embrace of the Buddhas.

"Baptism" means abhisheka, obviously.
This means that Bodhisattvas are conferred the Buddhas' sustaining power through their whole career, not just on the 10th Bhumi.

"By the power of the Buddha" occurs repeatedly through the  Avatamsaka Sutra. It must be the same Adhisthana that is discussed in Lankavatara?

Adhisthana is also present in Diamond Sutra when  it says that "Tathagata blesses bodhisattva-mahasattvas with the greatest of blessings"

Malcolm wrote:
Adhisthana and abhisheka are not the same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Mariusz said:
Moreover when I met ChNN in 1998 He also distinguished: Dzogchen is the "self-liberation path" not like Tantra "the transformation path". I guess He suggested "outside 9 yanas approach" but did not mention it. Maybe it deals with His terma-teachings that He discovered as I read somewhere but not sure if it?


Namdrol said:
This is not ChNN's idea. It is present in the basic tantras of Dzogchen.

Mariusz said:
So what is the point? Is really Clear Light or Ordinary Mind not "self-liberated" but "transformed"?


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. What I was referring to was the principal of Dzogchen that is beyond the nine yanas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Mariusz said:
Moreover when I met ChNN in 1998 He also distinguished: Dzogchen is the "self-liberation path" not like Tantra "the transformation path". I guess He suggested "outside 9 yanas approach" but did not mention it. Maybe it deals with His terma-teachings that He discovered as I read somewhere but not sure if it?


Malcolm wrote:
This is not ChNN's idea. It is present in the basic tantras of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Lamdre.
Content:


narraboth said:
Blessing or not, you still need to do daily practices after that!

I think daily practice is a basic requirement and it's better to do retreat, although I doubt how many could do that nowadays.... (Another question is, how benefitial a full Lamdre teaching can be if people won't do a retreat to put all those teachings into practice? )


Malcolm wrote:
Whether you do daily practices after receiving Lamdre depends on the master giving the teaching.

You don't need to do a retreat to practice the full Lamdre.

But it helps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
TMingyur said:
Non-grasping, non-attachment, non-craving. No agent experiencing.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Exactly that is the emptiness taught first by the Buddha, and reinforced by Nāgārjuna when Abhidharma speculations deviated into substantialist speculation. There is no other emptiness apart from selflessness. Selflessness = emptiness = dependent origination.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
TMingyur said:
They correspond to the three characteristics selflessness, impermanence and dukkha.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
How do you understand selflessness?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
Of course there are different meanings of the term "emptiness".


Namdrol said:
Where do the three gates of liberation, śunyatā, alakṣana, and apranidhana, fit in your scheme?

You see, nirvana, according to your presentation of the Sabba sutta, seems to be excluded.

TMingyur said:
The times I have had a scheme I 've been completely lost. So I better refrain from fabricating a scheme in order to meet your expectations.

One can rid oneself of obscurations ... be it with or without the Sabba sutta. If this is what you refer to with "Nirvana" then I cannot understand your 2nd sentence. If your "Nirvana"  refers to something else other than that then I cannot understand you either.

Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
To rephrase: do you understand the three gates of liberation? If so, how?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Approaching Nagarjuna and the Mulamadhyamakakarika...
Content:
dharmapravicaya said:
Thank you, you are helping me to clarify a basic confusion: from what you say, I gather that Pingalo's commentary is *not* the Chinese version of the Akutobhaya. For some reason, I was under that (wrong) impression.

However, if it is close to the Bv., it means it must be relatively concise and to the point: maybe Bocking's book may indeed be a very good first step in reading the MMK? (Going back to the initial topic of the post).


Malcolm wrote:
I've never really looked at Akutobhya -- but I have read significant portions of the Buddhapalita -- both P and B parse the MMK as a dialogue between Nag and an opponent who is gradually lead to understanding the real meaning of the Buddha's teaching.

It is fairly, and a good job, I think.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Approaching Nagarjuna and the Mulamadhyamakakarika...
Content:
dharmapravicaya said:
That's true - I wasn't thinking about Bocking's translation. Thank you for mentioning it: I haven't read it - if you have, may I ask you, what was your impression? It's translated from the Chinese rather than from the Tibetan version, if I am not mistaken. If it's a good translation, perhaps that could be a viable starting point for reading the MMK.

I also heard about John Dunne's project, which has been going on for several years, but so far I don't know whether he has completed it or not. It is something to look forward to!


Malcolm wrote:
Bocking considers this to be largely the work of Kumarajiva -- but it definitely comes from the same milieu as the Buddhapalita vritti -- the main difference is the presence of Mahayāna citations.

There is no Tibetan version of this commentary. But is close to Buddhapalita.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 7th, 2011 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Approaching Nagarjuna and the Mulamadhyamakakarika...
Content:
dharmapravicaya said:
It has been mentioned that it is a pity, and it may be strange, that Kumārajīva’s commentary hasn’t been translated – considering that at least two major Tibetan commentaries to the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā have.

I personally agree: also, I’d like to notice that not even one of the Indian commentaries has been translated in its entirety. There are a few:

The Akutobhaya, which is concise and ascribed to Nāgārjuna himself by some traditions; even if one does not accept it as an auto-commentary, it remains the oldest available commentary on the text;

Buddhapālita’s commentary;

Bhāvaviveka’s commentary;

Candrakīrti’s commentary.

If I am not mistaken, there is also a commentary by Sthiramati, the great Yogācāra commentator.

Hopefully in the next years some of these crucial commentaries will be translated. I am familiar with only one of them, Candrakīrti’s own, and I can say it is truly remarkable in pointing out the connections between the MMK and a very broad literature, spanning from non-Mahaayaana Suutras, to different schools of Abhidharma, and so forth. I trust that most traditional commentary share the same familiarity with the broader context of the root text.

Malcolm wrote:
Prasannapada is being done by John Dunne and Sarah Mclintock, or so I understand.

Brian Bocking translated Kumarajiva's translations of the Pingalo commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: cosmic evolution
Content:
ram peswani said:
...and Mahyana needs for one to walk alone and accumulate creativity and Wisdom...

gregkavarnos said:
This is pure nonsense.  A teacher is a pivotal factor on the Mahayana path.  Look at all the icons of the Bodhisattvas, why do you think they have their teachers sitting on a lotus above their head or in their usnisha?


Malcolm wrote:
Mostly to show what Buddha family they emanate from.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


TMingyur said:
Of course there are different meanings of the term "emptiness".


Malcolm wrote:
Where do the three gates of liberation, śunyatā, alakṣana, and apranidhana, fit in your scheme?

You see, nirvana, according to your presentation of the Sabba sutta, seems to be excluded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Sherab said:
Agreed.  Nothing's wrong with simulated practice.  Modern commercial pilots have to fly in a simulator before they qualify to do the real thing.


Malcolm wrote:
There maybe nothing wrong with flight simulators, but we don't have those in Vajrayana.

You either are a real practitioner or you are not a practitioner at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 8:32 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you worked with the realization of emptiness, you'd be a first stage bodhisattva right?

No, here we are taking emptiness into the path through our knowledge.

N

Sherab said:
Yes, I was thinking that only someone on the path of seeing and above could do the actual rather than a simulated Vajrayana practice.
I suppose that when you use the term Vajrayana practice, you don't distinguish between simulated and actual practice.


Malcolm wrote:
Practice is practice. The experiences we are taking into the path in sadhana practice come to us through the experiences of the empowerment -- there is no such thing as "simulated practice". You either practice or you don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 8:06 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Sherab said:
Beings processes, kadag and lhundrub are not identical in Dzogchen.  It is correct to say this?  If yes, how is kadag equivalent to emptiness and lhundrub equivalent to dependent origination since in Madhyamaka, emptiness is identical to dependent origination according to your earlier reasoning.

Malcolm wrote:
Kadag and lhundrup are completely inseparable.

Lhundrub is kadag, kadag is lhundrup i.e. original purity has self-perfected qualities; these self-perfected qualities are originally pure.

So, it is precisely the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
Is it means one adds tantric methods like tsalung only to be prepare onself in case of "get it" during future initation with intro in Rigpa, to perfect somehow one's own qualities/openess for introduction?

Namdrol said:
What it means is that the methods of Dzogchen are completely different than the methods of the two stages.

The two stages are always involved with trying to discover something with the mind, peeling away the layers of one's body, speech and mind trying to reveal its most subtle nature.

With Dzogchen practice, you are working with that knowledge, the goal of the two stages, right from the beginning. This is why Dzogchen is referred to as the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Likewise, in sutra, you are always practicing and trying to discover emptiness. But in Vajrayāna, you work with that knowledge of emptiness right from the very beginning. Emptiness is the result, from the sutra point of view, so in Vajrayana one works with the principle of the result of sutra right from the beginning.

N

Sherab said:
Could you clarify?  You said that In Vajrayana, one works with the knowledge of emptiness from the very beginning.  I thought that the actual practice of Vajrayana (as opposed to a simulated practice), one works with the realization of emptiness rather than the knowledge of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
If you worked with the realization of emptiness, you'd be a first stage bodhisattva right?

No, here we are taking emptiness into the path through our knowledge.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Bikram Yoga
Content:
mr. gordo said:
Namdrol,  I saw this:

http://www.kripalu.org/program/view/YY-111/yantra_yoga_in_the_manglam_tradition " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yantra Yoga is designed to help you awaken fully to your Buddha nature through the use of physical postures (asana), breath-control exercises (pranayama), and meditative practices. Introduced to Tibet by the Mahasiddha Virupa in the tenth century, the practice of Yantra Yoga can help reduce your stress, improve your health, and deepen your meditative experience through techniques that positively affect your body and mind.

This highly experiential workshop will be led by Lama Migmar Tseten of Harvard University, and David Magone, the founder of PranaVayu Yoga. You will take part in a traditional Yantra Yoga initiation ceremony and learn to work directly with the body’s energy systems by using Yantra Yoga postures, breathing exercises, and mantras.

Yantra Yoga was traditionally considered a secret teaching, offered to initiates of Vajrayana Buddhism only after many years of intensive preparation and meditation. For this reason, it has rarely been offered in the West. Given the nature of these teachings, at least one full year of yoga experience is required to participate.
Is this practice taken out of Lam Dre?  Do you know if they will be going over or reviewing Kumbhaka (vase breathing)?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is from Lamdre -- I translated the basic texts for this with Lama Migmar.

Yes, it has pranayāma. They should be going over khumbhaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Rael said:
the formula posed this way is deceptive in my opinion...


Malcolm wrote:
Ok. I heard you. I don't agree. But that's ok.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
The earliest bio we have of him, AFAIK, is in the Vima nyinthig, the lo rgyus chen mo.

Nangwa said:
Is there an English translation of this available?


Malcolm wrote:
Valby translated it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Reconsiderations on Not-Really-Buddhism
Content:
Jikan said:
I've been as critical as anyone of New Agey product lines that are presented as Buddhist teaching but aren't.  Here's an example.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2061&start=0&hilit=kuji#p14097 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These situations are problematic if people get stuck in them, and develop long-term confusions and attachments as a consequence (the confusion of thinking one is enlightened when one is really not, for instance).  I still think it would be better to work an honest job than to try to make an easy living selling phony Dharma.  But it may well be that, for some, there is no getting stuck:  they get started, read the fine print, and move on shortly after.  If you're in El Paso, Texas, say, you might spend a moment or two here...

http://www.sukhidevi.com " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...before you move on and get settled in practice here:

http://www.ctbcc.com " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting acquainted with Buddhist practice and Buddhist cultures can be tricky for many.  I'm speculating that a transitional phase might be useful, although I'm not comfortable with the profit/prophet motive behind some of these in-between groups.  I've seen this happen in Tendai-shu in North America, where people come in with a head full of ideas they've absorbed from different martial arts manuals and YouTube videos on Reiki and Instant Karma, which bridge the gap from Guy-On-The-Street-Mind to In-The-Know-Practitioner-Mind.

Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
This is another person bounced from e-sangha for failing to satisfy ordination and or permission to teach requirements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Rael said:
you are now agreeing with me ....WTF


Namdrol said:
As I said, before deciding someone does not understand something, ask first.

Rael said:
oki doke here's one for ya...

why enter the jaberwockey in a paragraph of teaching about emptiness when you knew it was actually something that should be addressed separate....or did it sort of blur into your post.....and like you gotta leave it there now cause your infallible....

questions questions....

Malcolm wrote:
It's a formula, incomplete unless all terms are stated.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
tamdrin said:
Yeah Sonam,
I'm sure the TOKDEN just did all those practices because it was the culture he was born into... That makes a lot of sense while we can find every excuse to be lazy here in the western countries and then expect realization of the rainbow body (wouldn't you have to get to the first BHUMI first) sitting around on the computer deciphering the "highest view" from the scriptures..

Malcolm wrote:
According to Khenpo Ngachung, the paths and stages don't really map to Dzogchen, but you can explain things that way:

Visions 1 & 2, below the path of seeing.
Vision 3; path of seeing and path of cultivation (bhumis 1-7)
vision 4; end of path of cultivation and path of no more learning (stages 8 to 16).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
it just not a "Tibetan habit" or a cultural thing and it surprise me that you would defend someone who said like that about Togden Rinpoche.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't. I was explaining a little about some of the background, linking practice with our condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
People in  truth have some fantasy about what Garab Dorje must have been like.  WE really know very little about what his historical life may have been like.  I actually seem to recall that he liked practicing om ah hum vajra recitations and that he meditated in samadhi for like 30 years in retreat.. So actually he probably didn't just miraculously become this great master and his 3 words, although the essence of his teaching are his pointing out instructions and they aren't probably all the t, actually most definitely..

Malcolm wrote:
He was a "nirmanakāya of compassion" i.e. a direct emanation of Vajradhara. According to legend, we know that he uttered the rdo rje sems dpa' nam kha che when he was eight -- this sort of rules out "becoming" a great master.

We know that he is a first human master in one kama transmission of Yamantaka.

We know he freaked out "500" hundred Indian Panditas, headed up by Mañjuśrīmitra. Maybe there were two, the later one, Śrī Singha's teacher, was the reincarnation of the first, Garab Dorje's disciple.

The earliest bio we have of him, AFAIK, is in the Vima nyinthig, the lo rgyus chen mo.

As far as the rest goes, it is shrouded in legend and fable. It is all very uncertain. Norbu Rinpoche would like to place him circa 55 CE. based I think on the Sem sde lineages. There are all kinds of problems trying to date this person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Rael said:
you are now agreeing with me ....WTF


Malcolm wrote:
As I said, before deciding someone does not understand something, ask first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:




Rael said:
there is no such thing as "The Nature of non-empty"


Namdrol said:
Some people think there are non-empty things, such people think those things lack dependence -- for example, the Nyaya school. They are very opposed to the idea of emptiness and maintain that non-empty things are non-dependent things.

You might want to read chapter 15 of the MMK where Nāgārjuna addresses the idea of non-empty, non-dependent phenomena.

Rael said:
oki doke...but can we skip to the part where i tell you that he was addressing this as the wrong way of looking at things.....
that it is totally going to throw you off......


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not going to throw me off in the least -- I know that Nāgājuna is rejecting non-empty, non-dependent things completely. That is the whole point, non-empty, non-dependent things don't exist at all -- they are mere abstractions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
Nangwa said:
This is a pretty clear and pithy teaching on the Three Statements.

"A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa. When one has the experience of Rigpa, then one confirms the validity of one's path now being "remaining with Rigpa" as path. Then, one simply continues in that state. Rigpa is the view to be experienced, Rigpa is the path to be followed, and Rigpa is the fruit of the path. There is no change in Rigpa, either in the beginning, middle or end. The fruit is your first realization of Rigpa. There are no Stages of Rigpa. Thogel does not modify Rigpa."—Dudjom Rinpoche on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje


Malcolm wrote:
Precisely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:




Rael said:
there is no such thing as "The Nature of non-empty"

Malcolm wrote:
I agree with you. That line was a formal statement to show that a non-dependent thing would have to be non-empty. Such things do not exist, therefore there are no things that are not empty.

Some people think there are non-empty things, such people think those things lack dependence -- for example, the Nyaya school. They are very opposed to the idea of emptiness and maintain that non-empty things are non-dependent things.

You might want to read chapter 15 of the MMK where Nāgārjuna addresses the idea of non-empty, non-dependent phenomena.

Before you decide people are in error, you might want to find out if you have understood what they are saying.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Once you have knowledge of your state (rigpa), and it is concrete, you have no more doubt, then you proceed in the confidence of liberation. That does not mean you are liberated, just you are certain that for you it will happen, based on your knowledge, your rigpa.

So, I guess I agree more with Sonam.

However, until you have firm knowledge (rigpa) of your state free from doubts, then you need to use various methods to reinforce that knowledge (rigpa).

Introduction --> recognition --> confidence --> liberation.

N

heart said:
Our understanding of the three words obviously differ. It gets a little to personal to continue the discussion at this point and I know from experience that I can't beat you with words. Anyway what Sönam is saying is that once you sat through a direct introduction you don't need anything because you are all the time in rigpa because that is what he read in the Dzogchen Tantras. You agree with him, it is fine with me.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
When you have received direct introduction:

a) you do not have recognition.
b) you have recognition.

If a) proceed to use methods to discover the state of that introduction; then proceed to b.
If b) proceed to removing doubts

c) stabilize that knowledge.

d) continue in that state.


I don't think there is anything controversial about the aforementioned breakdown.


d) continue in that state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
You think so?  Plato was trying to prove the (pre-)existence of a permanent notion called "cupness" and Diogenes challenged this by bringing pointing to the fact that it was all merely a (foolish) mental fabrication.

Rael said:
interesting...my take on it was Plato saw that our mind formulates the things around us and gives them a label.

he wasn't talking about the fact that ultimately there is no cup....

your projecting....


Malcolm wrote:
The point greg was making is that plato theorized there was a ideal cup that informed all instances of cups. That ideal cup is ultimate, all cups that derive from that ideal are relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I also want to add it is not necessary to become an expert in Dzogchen texts to realize Dzogchen. It is not about intellectual learning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
I just tell you what I been taught and what seems incredibly supported by the tantras of Dzogchen.

/magnus

Namdrol said:
How many of them have you actually read?

heart said:
Well, apart from the Kunjed Gyalpo and a few private publication, not that much. However, many Dzogchen texts by for example by Longchenpa quote heavily from various Tantras. The same is true in various guidance manuals. Anyway, I don't read Tibetan as you well know.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Right, and you understand that a lot of what Longchenpa wrote was defensive, meant to prevent criticisms of Dzogchen from those who adhered to the gradual path?

I would be quite hesitant to make proclamations about what the Dzogchen tantras say and do not say if you have not read them in a comprehensive way. I don't mean this is a mean way, or to suggest you are stupid -- I am not mean, and you are not stupid. But the real teaching of Garab Dorje is surprising in many ways. Not least of which is pretty constant refrain that the real meaning of Dzogchen cannot be approached through the nine yanas.

I don't want to get into providing voluminous citations -- because I think this is abusing the teaching, turning it into a book dance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:


Rael said:
non empty.....i mean there is a reason you never read a teacher saying this before....lol


edit....the nature of non- empty is even worse.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to read Nāgārjuna again:

"If there were something a little not empty, there would be something to be empty;
as there is nothing that is not empty, where is there something to be empty?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
You know, after reading through the last three pages of this thread the following question came to mind:

Is the dog chasing its tail or is the tail chasing the dog? dog.jpg
Woof!

Rael said:
the only problem i see is using the names of the likes of Nargajuna to impute ones own obscured view unto the philosophy of Sunyata...

Sunyata is best left to someone who has realized it...not just understanding it's implications....and parroting quotes ...

any device used in this thread that in the slightest way deviates the reader from coming to the true experience is dangerous both for the author and the reader....

Malcolm wrote:
Guess we should just all shut up and go home.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
I just tell you what I been taught and what seems incredibly supported by the tantras of Dzogchen.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
How many of them have you actually read?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Bikram Yoga
Content:
mr. gordo said:
I'm signing up for Bikram yoga classes and was wondering if there are health issues from a Tibetan Medical perspective in doing asanas in a room heated to 105°F (≈ 40.6°C) with a humidity of 40%.  Does the heat really make this form of yoga superior to other forms of yogas like hatha or ashtangha?  Are there potential health issues that could arise if the temperature of the room is that high?

Namdrol said:
Yes, Bikram can be bad for you it you have a pitta constitution.

The heat does not make it superior other forms of yoga.

mr. gordo said:
Thanks Namdrol.
If you are in new york, I would recommend Yoga Sutra.
Oh, the Krishnamacharya Lineage!  I had no idea this was being taught in NY!  It's in the city, but I've done similar treks and it looks worth it.  The Bikram school is like 15 minutes away from me...Yoga Sutra is like 90 minutes.

Malcolm wrote:
Yoga sutra is better. More diverse and they invite Shrivasta Ramaswami, a master I would like very much to learn from.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Astus said:
"Hi Astus, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but when speaking of the material aggregate, it is composed of the 5 sense organs and 5 sense objects. So for example the sense organ of smell is composed of a patch of atoms that detects the different odors. The sensory data would be the sense object of odor."

That is all right. The disagreement is simply on the nature of the aggregates whether they're things to be experienced or philosophical concepts.


Malcolm wrote:
The skandhas, āyatanas and dhātus are phenomenological categories i.e. headings for experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
I heard so many things about my own Guru before I managed to get a little closer to him. People were putting him down in many ways. But I stuck with him because he made a very strong personal connection with me when we met that left me wide open. I wanted to practice Dzogchen but it seemed he only taught Mahamudra, or so people told me. I just kept doing my Ngondro. Then one day many years ago he said to me "you need the pointing-out" and gave it to me. Since that day he been the most marvelous Dzogchen teacher you can imagine. He is like Longchenpa or Manjusrimita. He done such things, you would not believe me if I told you.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
So who is your root Guru?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Namdrol said:
This is not just my observation -- this is an observation I have heard Norbu Rinpoche make many times, as well as Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, and so on. So, it should be taken to heart. There are many lamas these days using the name "Dzogchen" to sell their teachings.

heart said:
The question is who are these Lama's?


Malcolm wrote:
If you want to receive Dzogchen teachings, go find a real Dzogchen master. You have to decide for yourself who is real and who is just a salesman. No one can do that for you. But you will know the difference, eventually. So choose well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
Hayagriva said:
Thanks Namdrol.

I was talking to a dharma friend ans I mentioned that one of my favourite dharma books I've ever come across is 'Buddhahood Without Meditation' - a freely available text. They were very adamant I shouldn't read it without a lung and full teaching on it. They went so far as to say it would be completely unintelligable to someone who hadn't had these. I can see merit in this position, but it seemed to go way too far in my opinion.

Obviously that's just my take on the conversation, but what's your view on this kind of position? I know there would be many out there in agreement, and many others who'd object.


Malcolm wrote:
I think that there are some people who would understand, other people who would not.

I think there is a lot of fanaticism around these things that is unhealthy and counterproductive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
so please don't interpret this as criticism of him but rather of what Namdrol said.


Malcolm wrote:
Rather than criticizing what I say, you should open your ears and listen; there are two approaches to Dzogchen:
1) gradual i.e. the nine yānas approach
2) non -- gradual i.e. Dzogchen's own approach to itself as teaching independent of the nine yānas.

In the second approach, you use what you want/need from lower vehicles. In the first approach, each level is necessarily preceded by the earlier.

This point of view is not my fabrication.

It is pointless to talk about these things with people -- since people just stubbornly cling to whatever idea they start with, and get involved with trenchant disagreements that last for years. It is pretty stupid really. Better not to say anything and keep one's understanding to oneself.

BTW, this is not about what Norbu Rinpoche says or does not say. These things are plainly stated in the basic texts of the tantras of Dzogchen. You can read them there. Over and out.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Sönam said:
Once more I never say Dzogchen has problem with something, and certainly not with ngondrö and Yidam ... as for Chnn's uncle he was (like our others masters) born in that "culture of the practice" which is the tibetan buddhism, so he spent his live to practice those "techniques" ... it does not mean that it "brought him to the rainbow body". Others techniques (or non-techniques) would have "brought him" to the same result.

Sönam


heart said:
Seriously, how do you know that? Are you about to attain the rainbow body or do you know someone that is? In my ears it sounds very arrogant to say that.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, you have to understand one thing about Togden Rinpoche, when he was young, he suffered from mental illness. As I understand it, a lot of his practice was oriented towards removing the causes of his underlying health problems, chö, yantra, prostrations, etc. This is the reason, for example, that his main Yidam practice was Takhyung Barwa. We practiced this in the community for many years until Norbu Rinpoche switched to Guru Dragphur.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
What you need to do is go to a dzogchen master and do what they ask you to do. There are many styles of dzogchen masters out there. Some are not as "Dzogchen" as others even though they use the name "Dzogchen" to sell teachings.

heart said:
I really hope no one listen to this. Don't let intellectual ideas like "who is the most and purest Dzogchen teacher" lead you when connecting to a teacher.

Maybe you should speak up Namdrol and say which teachers exactly you consider "not so Dzogchen".

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
This is not just my observation -- this is an observation I have heard Norbu Rinpoche make many times, as well as Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, and so on. So, it should be taken to heart. There are many lamas these days using the name "Dzogchen" to sell their teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
I don't think you are really communicating with one another.

heart said:
"Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa"

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Once you have knowledge of your state (rigpa), and it is concrete, you have no more doubt, then you proceed in the confidence of liberation. That does not mean you are liberated, just you are certain that for you it will happen, based on your knowledge, your rigpa.

So, I guess I agree more with Sonam.

However, until you have firm knowledge (rigpa) of your state free from doubts, then you need to use various methods to reinforce that knowledge (rigpa).

Introduction --> recognition --> confidence --> liberation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Lamdre.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Lam 'bras, the path together with the result is the main teaching of the Sakya school....

mr. gordo said:
I've heard the daily practice takes about 2 hours?  Is that about right?

narraboth said:
Depends on what length of text you will be doing, also how familiar you are with the practice, could be from 20 min to 4 hours. Usually a lamdre teaching will give you the right and obligation to do three of '4 unbreakable' daily; people should consider this before receiving.

It's not really about three years retreat; it's a complete path leads to enlightenment; people are encouraged to do retreat but not necessary (depends on what you would be asked by your lama). I believe Sakyapa emphasize daily practice more than retreat, if you are not going to be a dorje lopon.... and I have heard that Sakya retreats are more 'number' retreats than 'time' retreats (you fulfill certain amount of mantra chanting during retreat rather than set a time).

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. It is the three year retreat that I did. As to your second observation, I would disagree. Sakyas are encouraged to do retreats. But doiung daily practice is also very important. Sakya retreats are number retreats for beginners and time retreats for the more experienced. And for those of best capacity, they are "sign" retreats i.e. you stay in until you have signs.

These days Lamdre is usually given as a "blessing".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Restricted books
Content:
Hayagriva said:
What makes a text or teaching 'restricted'? Are there any uniform guidelines?

I find it interesting that there are two English translations of 'Flight of the Garuda' out there, one being restricted and the other being open.


Malcolm wrote:
Eric Pema Kunzang's is restricted because he was following the advice of Dilgo Khyentse. Dowman's is not restricted, I assume, because he felt comfortable publishing it.

There is no central authority or committee that determines these things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The citation means that "empty" and "dependent" are completely interchangeable terms. It can be expressed as follows:

Something empty is something dependent;
something dependent is something empty;
something not-empty is something non-dependent;
something non-dependent is something not-empty.
The nature of the dependent is to be empty;
the nature of the empty is to be dependent;
the nature of the non-dependent is to be non-empty;
the nature of the non-empty is to be non-dependent.

In other words, dependent origination and śūnyatā are precisely the same thing.

N

Sherab said:
How is Dzogchen beyond cause and effect if emptiness is identical to dependent origination?

Malcolm wrote:
Sort of off topic-- but to answer the question: Dzogchen is a way of realization that is beyond cause and effect i.e. which does not require causal accumulations of merit and wisdom. It is not an ontological state beyond cause and effect. The reason that Dzogchen does not propose an ontological state is that since no phenomena at all are established in the basis, there are no ontological states at all, either existent or non-existent. In Dzogchen, the term "dependent origination" refers solely to the process initiated by the knowledge obscuration of avidyā which falsely imputes identity to person and things onto the appearance of the basis. Kadag and lhundrup may be understood as how non-afflictive or pre-afflictive processes in the basis are described in Dzogchen teachings.

Vidyā  | Avidyā
kadag     | emptiness
lhundrub | dependent origination

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
In other words, dependent origination and śūnyatā are precisely the same thing.
The nidanas explain the dependent origination of kleshas. They are if you will, the special theory of dependent origination.

But what I am discussing here, and what Nāgārjuna is actually talking about generally is the general theory of dependent origination.

TMingyur said:
Interesting. I would say that "the dependent origination of the nidanas" and the "general theory of dependent origination" " are precisly the same thing " (to borrow your own words).

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
The nidanas are a specialized account of the process of samsara, there can be as many as thirteen and few as eight, depending on what sutra one is reading.

The general theory of dependent origination runs something like the following:

Where this existeded, that exists;
with the arising of that, this arose;
Where this does not exist, that does not exist,
with the cessation of that, this ceased.

In for the above to function, the above must all be empty, as Nāgārjuna extensively shows. As substantialist explanation of the above formula does not work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: Bikram Yoga
Content:
mr. gordo said:
I'm signing up for Bikram yoga classes and was wondering if there are health issues from a Tibetan Medical perspective in doing asanas in a room heated to 105°F (≈ 40.6°C) with a humidity of 40%.  Does the heat really make this form of yoga superior to other forms of yogas like hatha or ashtangha?  Are there potential health issues that could arise if the temperature of the room is that high?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Bikram can be bad for you it you have a pitta constitution.

The heat does not make it superior other forms of yoga.

If you are in new york, I would recommend Yoga Sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
retrofuturist said:
Greetings Namdrol,
Namdrol said:
In other words, dependent origination and śūnyatā are precisely the same thing.

retrofuturist said:
In what sense are you referring to dependent origination here?


Malcolm wrote:
In the general sense. The nidanas explain the dependent origination of kleshas. They are if you will, the special theory of dependent origination.

But what I am discussing here, and what Nāgārjuna is actually talking about generally is the general theory of dependent origination. It is for this reason he spends so much time discussion external phenomena such as the six causes and four conditions, the five elements, time, etc., as well as things like karma, four noble truths, etc.

All of these phenomena are dependent phenomena; all of these phenomena are also empty. To the extent they are empty, they are dependent; to the extent they are dependent, they are empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 9:09 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Sherab said:
Does the quotation contradict my proposed answer?  If yes, please elaborate.

Namdrol said:
The inherent meaning of dependent origination is emptiness. Whatever is empty dependently arises; whatever dependently arises is empty, according to Nagarjuna.

In other words, there is nothing not empty that arises at all, and all that arises is empty because it dependently arises. There is no emptiness apart from dependent origination, and no dependent origination apart from emptiness.

Sherab said:
Doesn't "Whatever arises in dependence does not in truth arise" refer to the nonduality (inseparability) of dependent origination and emptiness?  In other words, the quote does not refer to the equality of emptiness and dependent origination and is instead referring to emptiness and dependent origination as "aspects" of the ultimate.  If so, the explanation given by you refers to just this nonduality (inseparability) isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
The citation means that "empty" and "dependent" are completely interchangeable terms. It can be expressed as follows:

Something empty is something dependent;
something dependent is something empty;
something not-empty is something non-dependent;
something non-dependent is something not-empty.
The nature of the dependent is to be empty;
the nature of the empty is to be dependent;
the nature of the non-dependent is to be non-empty;
the nature of the non-empty is to be non-dependent.

In other words, dependent origination and śūnyatā are precisely the same thing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Namdrol said:
With Dzogchen practice, you are working with that knowledge, the goal of the two stages, right from the beginning. This is why Dzogchen is referred to as the vehicle beyond cause and result.


N

Mariusz said:
So how can we practice for Dzogchen when we have already failed the introduction in Rigpa in the past initiation by our masters in the first place?  Dzogchen can not start from nothing (when for eample we have  never had connection with Dzogchen in previous lives)? Is failed introduction enough only? Sorry, I'm trying to understand this seems to paradox

Malcolm wrote:
No such thing as a failed introduction. The introduction is based on your experience. You will always have an experience in introduction even if it passes you by so quickly you cannot recognize it. This is why you work with this first.

Maybe you need some secondary practice, like two stages, tsalung, etc., or you have a problem an obstacle you need to remove.

However, you will not understand this very well talking to me or anyone else on the internet. This is not something that can be understood intellectual sans experience. It is like trying to explain to someone who has never encountered a lemon what a lemon tastes like. Even if you tell them it is sour, their "sour lemon" is just an intellectual concept.

What you need to do is go to a dzogchen master and do what they ask you to do. There are many styles of dzogchen masters out there. Some are not as "Dzogchen" as others even though they use the name "Dzogchen" to sell teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
heart said:
Sorry if I misquoted you, but what would be the point of doing these practices if they don't lead to the recognition of rigpa? It is pretty clear to me that what makes you recognize your own nature is nothing but the accumulation of merit and wisdom. Without that accumulation it is impossible to even find your root Guru. Then after recognition it is still incredibly important because there are almost infinite ways of straying from the path, misunderstanding the path or just **** up.
There are so many Nyingthik cycles and Yangti cycle that contain all these practices, are you suggesting that Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and so on was mistaken?

/magnus

Sönam said:
magnus,
the ambiguity is on "to lead to" ... when you view in term on linearity, you have to considere accumulation of merit. Because of that accumulation one come to a point of recognition of rig-pa. With that view, one may say accumulation of merit (yidam, ngondrö, or else and so on) "leads" to the recognition of rig-pa (Dzogchen). Once you have recognized rig-pa, "life change", and nothing "leads" to rig-pa, because the "practice" is only "no to" fall in ma-rigpa (which in "reality-fact" is totaly impossible). Of course, in that "space", when it is in the here and now, one can practice Yidam, ngondrö and so on, and it 'fit' energies, but even there, the practice is slightly different, there is no more "2 phases", but only one, the "immediate and spontaneous" completion one ... but then it is not "a lead", it's spontaneous and immediate.

Sönam


heart said:
Seriously Sönam, I don't know how to tell you this in a soft way, but this is not how you practice Dzogchen. I told you many times now, if you try to prolong the recognition it is just mind, just a thought. Not that I am an expert or anything but as my teacher say "short moments repeated many times", compassion and devotion come in very handy there if you want to repeat it "many times".

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you are really communicating with one another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


Mariusz said:
Is it means one adds tantric methods like tsalung only to be prepare onself in case of "get it" during future initation with intro in Rigpa, to perfect somehow one's own qualities/openess for introduction?


Malcolm wrote:
What it means is that the methods of Dzogchen are completely different than the methods of the two stages.

The two stages are always involved with trying to discover something with the mind, peeling away the layers of one's body, speech and mind trying to reveal its most subtle nature.

With Dzogchen practice, you are working with that knowledge, the goal of the two stages, right from the beginning. This is why Dzogchen is referred to as the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Likewise, in sutra, you are always practicing and trying to discover emptiness. But in Vajrayāna, you work with that knowledge of emptiness right from the very beginning. Emptiness is the result, from the sutra point of view, so in Vajrayana one works with the principle of the result of sutra right from the beginning.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Sönam said:
sorry to be late ...


Mariusz said:
Thank you Namdrol and Sonam. I hope it will help me in my retreat this year Nevertheless, can we use in Dzogchen Nyinthig the tsalung practice to enter this very recognition of Rigpa (when failed Initiation) in the same manner as in completion stage in HYT, like the machine made of cannals/winds/drops to generate 4 empties and 4 joys with final clear light? I thaught Dzogchen Nyinthig deals with methods of separation the Mind from Rigpa (Rushen) but tsalung is used in Anu Yoga?


Malcolm wrote:
One way to understand it is that process of two stages works from the outside in.

Dzogchen works from the inside out.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Transmission is a bad word. Direct introduction or pointing-out instruction is actually better. Anyway, recognizing the natural state is the beginning not the end.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There are three so called lineages (brgyud), but this word, brgyud, may also be understood as transmission.


Really, the best way to put it, (since we are here distinguishing talking about Dzogchen) is "unmediated encounter with one's own state" or "direct self-encounter". "rang ngo" means one's face, literally; thog du sprad means "direct encounter".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Looking for info on Tibetan demonology
Content:
Dharmaswede said:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Scuse me for being nosy, but, why?
Many reasons, but at this point mainly because I have an interest in Machik's teachings – and I think it is then pertinent to mull over what the terms demons and demonic denotate. Furthermore, as an absolute beginner I find it intriguing that there is not consensus among some senior Western practitioners as to whether demons are conventionally real, i.e. 'real' entities, or not.

Best Regards,

Jens

Malcolm wrote:
This is because those that negate the conventional existence of the genii locorum in general are not understanding how the six realms actually function.

For the most part, the experiential realm of gods and demons is the same as ours, but it is cognitively closed to most human beings.

Those people who negate the existence of such non-human beings completely are like ants on a leaf arguing about whether humans exist or not.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Lamdre.
Content:
conebeckham said:
Namdrol-

Is this path of practice the basis for a 3 year retreat in the Sakya system?  Are other practices, outside this path, added?

And could you elucidate the difference between the Lam Dre TsokShay and the Lamdre Lobshay for us?

Malcolm wrote:
Usually, people who do three years retreat will start with Vajrapani or Vajrakilaya; Hevajra creation and completion in the middle; some end with Mahakala, others with Yogini. It depends. Three retreat is a new addition to Sakya, actually.

There is not that much difference between the two systems, in reality. The basic difference is that the Tsogshad is more scholastic. The Lobshad is based on some manuals written by Tsarchen's disciple, and is a bit more experiential.

You will get the same result from either system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Lamdre.
Content:
Caz said:
Could someone please kindly explain what Lamdre is and how it is practised.

Malcolm wrote:
Lam 'bras, the path together with the result is the main teaching of the Sakya school.

The core of it is a concise set of instructions termed "vajra verses" written by the Mahasiddha Virupa for his disciple Krishnapa and brought to Tibet by Gayadhara, bestowed upon Drogmi Lotsawa.

The main practices of Lamdre center on the creation and completion stages of the Yidam Hevajra. Nevertheless, it is a gradual instruction, containing the entire Mahāyāna path of sutra and tantra.

One of the best features of lamdre is that is has a very detailed description of the precise experiences of traversing the paths and stages through the yogas of the completion stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
Mariusz said:
To Be Curious, if can I ask. Can this mind transmission happen even after a long time the initation was given by the master and one was failed to recognize Rigpa at that time, for example after many days when you are no more with the master you finally somehow "get it" home alone?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is exactly how it can happen. Recently, in Australia, CHNN explicitly stated this to be the case.

This is why in Dzogchen there are many methods to work with -- different than sadhanas and deity yoga to be sure, but the principle is the same.

The terms of the two stages, you receive an empowerment: but if you do not attain awakening during the empowerment, then you have methods to reach that state.

Likewise, in Dzogchen, you have three transmissions: oral, symbolic and direct aka realization. If you do not experience realization on the basis of the oral and symbolic transmission right away, then there are many methods one can use to discover this state of realization.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
conebeckham said:
I agree that "non-dual" is a bad translation of "Yer May," I thought the same thing when I read it.

Aside from appearances, what about the mind itself which "experiences" these appearances?  Does it differ from those appearances?


Malcolm wrote:
This is the great controversy about Yogacara. Asanga maintains that in order for there to be an appearance of deluded perception, even though the appearances do not exist, there must be an existent basis for those false appearances -- for example, even though there is no real existent image on the screen, there is nevertheless a projector through which a film is running. When the film is done, so are the images. Likewise, when the traces are finished, so is the false projections.

The real controversy is how far to extend that "existence" i.e. is the projector more real or less real than the projected images.

According to the way Yogacara is presented in orthodox tenet systems (Which all are based on Bhavaviveka II's Tarkajvala), this basis is the ālayavijñāna. When the seeds are removed, the ālaya is held to transform into wisdom. I.e. this existent wisdom which is ultimate, has to be predicated on an existing consciousness in order to account for the transformation of consciousness to wisdom.

In other words, conventional truth, in this way of presenting Yogacara, is the imputed projections. They all function, work quite well, until the basis of their reality is questioned. The ālaya projecting this is also understood to be relative. But when the traces are removed, the ālaya transforms into wisdom, and thus becomes ultimate.

Then there is the gzhan stong way of understanding this. According to the their presentation, both alāya and the projected images are conventional. Wisdom is ultimate and merely covered over by the conventional.

Then again, among gzhan stong pas, there are different ways of understanding the ultimate -- some seem to hold that it really exists. Others seem to hold it too is merely a yogic convention which when in equipoise is not needed and so on.

Etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
conebeckham said:
I must confess I've not seen the "dual/nondual" dichotomy focus on Existence and Nonexistence.  It's interesting.

In my experience, the term "nonduality" usually refers to a mind or consciousness (or wisdom?) that has transcended subject/object duality.

Namdrol, perhaps those who are "upset" with your "trivialization" of nonduality are referring to the term from this POV...what do you think?

I just happened to be reading Rigpa's Tibetan pocket calendar this morning..the Sakya lineage is featured this year, and Sogyal Rinpoche (or whoever wrote the content) claims the Sakya Philosophical View of "Khorday Yermay" is "the non-duality of Samsara and Nirvana," which "posits a non-dual luminosity-emptiness ("Saltong Yermay)  beyond all extremes."

Care to comment?


Malcolm wrote:
dbyer med means inseparable, not non-dual.

non-dual in yogacara, referring to absence of subject and object comes about because appearances which are mind-only lack both existence and non-existence in and of themselves.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Yidam and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Who said  "mind transmission of Dzogchen is  something a teacher places in your head"? It is ridiculous.


Malcolm wrote:
You would be amazed at what people think.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 5th, 2011 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
A 2009 title from Harper; this work is important.  It's subtitle is "DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design". Some chapters are difficult for those of us poorly educated folk, but overall it is a good look at the arguments for and against ID.  It is not a work about evolution, but just focuses on the arising of life via the first cell.  Also impressive is his unbiased, close examination of the evidence against ID. He is not a preacher for ID who ignores evidence against it in favor of a pre-conceived notion.


Malcolm wrote:
ID is just stealth theology. Total speculative junk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
muni said:
The truth itself doesn't change. The Buddha told us not about a truth which suit us. If there is by the many offered styles of practices clinging to the practices themselves, we can make a mistake and take them as the truth.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Muni-la:

What I am talking about is the fact that people think there is an ideal Buddhism somewhere. It is like a perfect form, unchanging, eternal, etc.

In reality Buddhism just reacts to people's circumstances. The Dharma is never completely taught, because people's conditions are endlessly various. And when someone becomes a Buddha, then for them Dharma is complete, since it has been realized.

The problem I am identifying is that Buddhism these days resembles a debate court, where people trot out obsolete problems (like how many sides an atom has) and then expend great deal of energy trying to disprove that atom. This amounts to disproving hair on a tortoise.

Now, I am not saying we should not study these things. But we need to study them with a view to their relevance. We know, through common observation, for example, that Vasubandhu's cosmology in the third chapter of Abhidharmakośa is wrong. This is not a mystery. We have known that it is wrong since at least 16th century, at least in the West. but still people are arguing about these things as if they are real.

I am not suggesting that we negate the two stages, toss out Dzogchen, etc. What I am suggesting however is that much of what is taught in Buddhism today are intellectual museum pieces that have no relevance to anyone's life.

There is always a role for historical scholarship, it can be interesting to learn how to debate like a monk in the fifteenth century. But we always must check the dharma that is being taught, and which we are learning, to see if it really has any value in our life.

Life is short and samsara is long.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
TMingyur said:
Well then you continue fostering attachment. It's up to you.

kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
You utterly missed the point. Non-attachment is remedial. It contains the seeds of its own defeat.

If you have attachment, then you need non-attachment. It is better to cut these things at the root, rather than the leaf.

The root is wrong views of existence and non-existence. That is dualism as defined by the Buddha. The absence of duality is when one's has no wrong views concerning "it is" and "it is not".

Every other dualistic pair stems from these two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Aemilius said:
Here is a short essay of Suniti K.Pathak, whose opinion is that has tantra existed from the earliest period of buddhism onward http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/bot/bot_1989_02_03.pdf


Namdrol said:
There is one important point in this you are missing. The earliest known text in India we know of that is referred to as a "tantra" is the Agniveśa tantra -- which is the core of the important ayurvedic treatise, the Caraka Samhita. The composition of the CS is hard to date, but likely was compiled between roughly 200 BCE -- 200 CE. Before there were distinct Buddhist texts called tantras, was another ayurvedic treatise called the Aṣtaṅgahridayasamhita penned by a Buddhist physician named Vagbhata in roughly the fifth century CE -- this text refers to itself as a tantra in the colophon.

Pathak's thesis is not that tantra existed in Buddhism from the beginning. His thesis is that elements existed in Buddhism from the beginning which are consistent with later developments called Vajrayāna. I don't disagree with this thesis. I think it is correct.

However, Vajrayāna is a mature path. Reciting a mantra to remove snake venom is not a path.

N

Aemilius said:
Suniti K. Pathak says more than that. It is intersting to see what  things he associates with tantrism, things that are present in our general view of early buddhism. The snake venom removing mantra is important because it is in Vinaya Vastu and it is connected to a known tantric deity !

Malcolm wrote:
The Vinaya Vastu is a complicated text. We cannot assume that its entire contents date from the time of the Buddha.

I prefer to interpret these instances differently. I think that there is an underlyingPan- Indian culture, based on vedic ritualism, cosmology and medical ideas, that people mistakenly term "tantrism". Buddhists were first and foremost Indian, and they utilized their culture in their practice of Buddhism. Proof of this for example may be found in the Mahaparinibbana sutta where Buddha informs Ananda that "the faithful brahmins" will take care of his cremation and so on, because they know the proper rituals for interring a Cakravartin. Or, in the beginning of the same sutta, he informs a minister of Ajasatru that it will be hard to invade the Koasalians, because among other things, they have maintained their traditional shrines and modes of worship.

All of this is not what we in Vajrayāna understand "tantra" to be. Of course we recognize that there are great similarities between non-Buddhist practice such as Shaivaite use of ganacakras, certain types of yoga, channels and cakras; secular practices such as royal coronation and so on. But just as the elements of Caitya or Stupa are all named after the ritual precinct of the Agnihotra, fire oblations, likewise, when these elements are taken up in the tantras they are repurposed if you will.

You can see seeds of this or that development in later Vajrayana in early Buddhism -- for example, the cult of Dharmapalas is present from the very beginning in the Dighanikāya, but the way these things exist in a piecemeal fashion in early Buddhism means that they are not a path.

Vajrayāna is a fully mature path, as opposed to the various miscellany found in various places. Also, even if Mahāmayuri is a deity in lower tantra, the practice of Mahāmayuri is also not a path. This deity is for temporary benefits, not for liberation. In lower tantra deities like Mañjuśri, Avalokiteśvara and Vajrapani are for complete realization. Lower tantra has hundreds of minor practices and mantras for various boons. Not many practices for complete realization.

So we either have to redefine what "tantric" means, specify what we mean when we are using the term "tantric" in terms of Buddhism, or restrict the definition to Vajrayāna Buddhism from the 7th century to the present in its various manifestations in Esoteric Buddhism of China and Japan and Vajrayāna in Tibet.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
TMingyur said:
It is good to return to the suttapitaka and skip all this philosophical scholary fabrication. This is my lesson learned from tibetan buddhism.

kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
Some people's idea is to return to some imagined "original" Buddhism. However, there is no such thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
devilyoudont said:
I mean it! You see, I have a theory. You know why Buddhist philosophy was vibrant in India? Because Indians had the strength to abandon Buddhism rather than betray their true understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist philosophy was also vibrant in Tibet once too -- then sectarian politics sealed the new translation schools in intellectual mausoleums.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Namdrol said:
That is quite an exaggeration -- basically it is not true.

Tibetan medicine is still continuing to evolve in ways in which Dharma tenet systems does not.

devilyoudont said:
You know more about it than I do.

(Hold on, was this also the case in Tibet?)


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that was part of my point -- but also that in studying Tibetan medicine, I realized that the way we are receiving Tibetan Buddhism is very static and taxonomic, and in more dynamic Dharma systems like Dzogchen and mahāmudra, the desiccated approach of tenet systems is very bad for explaining process and transformations. Meditation is actually a transformative process. Not a tenet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 8:05 AM
Title: Re: Brain vs. mind
Content:
Sherab said:
So mind and certain part of the body are inseparable?
This would allow for the possibility of an aspect of mind that is directly connected with the brain and another aspect that is independent of the brain.  This is my preferred view at the moment.

Malcolm wrote:
Mind and vāyu, the air element are inseparable. In turn, as long as the life organ is function, the vāyu pervades the entire body. Thus, when you damage nerves, the vāyu can no longer travel in those regions of body, and one has no sensation, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Brain vs. mind
Content:



Sherab said:
From a Vajrayana perspective, mind and body are inseparable, so no dualism.

Malcolm wrote:
The ordinary body is left behind at the time of death.  So are we leaving behind a part of our mind when we die?[/quote]

No, we are taking part of the rūpa aggregate when we go, namely the pranavāyu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:


devilyoudont said:
How do Tibetans compare to this parable? They invite doctors from the four corners of the world, let them have a debate, systemize their methods, and close the book. "Okay, that's Medicine, folks! Nothing else to see here!"


Malcolm wrote:
That is quite an exaggeration -- basically it is not true.

Tibetan medicine is still continuing to evolve in ways in which Dharma tenet systems does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Namdrol said:
On the contrary, Tibetans have managed to do so with spectacular success. There has not been a new idea in Tibetan Buddhism since about 15th century. Tibetan Buddhism is intellectually frozen. I would venture it is the same with all forms of Buddhism.

Pero said:
What do mean by a "new idea"? What kind of new idea would you like? I don't understand.


Malcolm wrote:
Meaning that intellectual development of Tibetan Buddhism is frozen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Will said:
Skip the metaphors Malcolm, just give a sappy solution to the problem as defined by you.


Malcolm wrote:
For example, in order to become expert in Madhyamaka, first you have to become expert in Abhidharma. Now, Abhidharma is interesting, but at least in Mahayāna, no one practices according to Abhidharma any more.

Many parts of the Mula require that one becomes educated in tenets no one accepts anymore anyway.

There are many other problems of this sort.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, you remove deadwood.

gregkavarnos said:
Live branches as well.  If the tree does not have the right shape and size you can't climb it to pick the olives.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, proper proper pruning is necessary for a healthy productive shrub or tree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Namdrol said:
When the basis for attachment has ceased, also the basis for detachment has ceased: detachment is also trapped in dualism.

TMingyur said:
It may appear so due to the terms being thought. However non-attachment does not "feel" "trapped" but attachment does.


Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, non-attachment is a more subtle trap.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Namdrol said:
Not talking adding and subtracting. Talking about sapwood as opposed to dead wood.

gregkavarnos said:
I have olive tree orchards which I tend in my exceedingly limited spare time, and I can assure you that the only way to keep trees alive is to prune them, add fertiliser, dig around the roots (and when they are young) give them water.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you remove deadwood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Astus said:
1. Don't you think it is through studying the Buddhist heritage that it can be gradually understood? Simply by translating a text to another language is a major part of the process and when a term like duhkha is rendered into suffering/stress/unsatisfactoriness/dis-ease/pain/etc. it is already an acculturation and transformation.

Malcolm wrote:
I am suggesting that there is a constant danger of "Dharma ossification".

Astus said:
In fact, it is quite impossible to present Buddhism as if it were a frozen object.

Malcolm wrote:
On the contrary, Tibetans have managed to do so with spectacular success. There has not been a new idea in Tibetan Buddhism since about 15th century. Tibetan Buddhism is intellectually frozen. I would venture it is the same with all forms of Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I was talking one time to a Ngakpa friend of mine and we were discussing his foray into Hindu Tantra, mainly studies of the cult of Kali, the discussion then got around to various teachers here in Greece that were attempting to meld Buddhism with other Eurpean mystical religions:  ancient Greek cults, freemasonry, etc...

Malcolm wrote:
Not what I am talking about.

gregkavarnos said:
I believe that Buddhism in the West will "evolve", but you can't make it evolve, it will evolve through our continued practice.  When we reach a certain level of attainment in our practice then we will also have the wisdom to add and subtract from Buddhism.  It's no use doing it prematurely though.

Malcolm wrote:
Not talking adding and subtracting. Talking about sapwood as opposed to dead wood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: north/east in tibetan
Content:
devilyoudont said:
Thanks!

The language is Classical Tibetan, right? To be honest, I have no lama, initiation or knowledge regarding the Tibetan language. I know nothing about this stuff at all!


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. And, well, if you are interested in such things, then it is better to go about it the proper way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 2:27 AM
Title: The Problem With Buddhist Philosophy
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The problem with Buddhist philosophy in general (I only really understood this after studying Tibetan Medicine) is that Buddhists often become stuck in dry, fixed categorizations. The way it is presented, there is very little engagement with process in Buddhist dharma language.

Dharma language is often quite presented overly taxonomical ways, and as such, people who indulge in Buddhist philosophy tend to resemble brittle taxidermists or dry intellectual morticians -- always trying to pretty up the cadavers of Buddhist tenets of which they are fond.

Buddhism is a living tradition -- not a bunch of tenet systems in a book. It is an evolving system, the sum of two and a half millennia of both awakened and unawakened people engaging with the meaning of Buddha's awakening, and the awakening of those who came after the Buddha.

Buddhism did not spring out fully formed, like Athena from Zeus' forehead. It evolved, slowly, adapting itself to time and place.

If Buddhism is to survive and continue to be relevant, it must evolve and meet the demand of those who are newly trying to engage with the meaning of awakening.

Otherwise, Buddhism is in danger of becoming a museum piece.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: north/east in tibetan
Content:
devilyoudont said:
Short version: "Shang shog" or "shar shog", which means east in Classical Tibetan?

Long version: Take a look at pages 8 and 9 of the Chod practice on this page: http://www.zangthal.co.uk/files.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see, it translates "shar shog dor je khan dro me" as "The vajra dakini of the east" and "shang shog le kyi khan dro me" as "The karma dakini of the east". Surely one of these should read "north", right?


Malcolm wrote:
She just made a cut and paste error. Forgot to remove east and put north for karma dakini.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 4th, 2011 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Brain vs. mind
Content:


LastLegend said:
If we practice separable (in aspects I talked about), then it is not Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
For Mahayana and Hinayana, nama and rūpa are a substance dualism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Brain vs. mind
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Sorry to be the one to tell you this but physical damage to any part of the body causes a change in consciousness.

Lazy_eye said:
Sure, but that just restates the question in broader terms.


Malcolm wrote:
From a Vajrayana perspective, mind and body are inseparable, so no dualism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Looking for info on Tibetan demonology
Content:
Heruka said:
oracles and demons of tibet, by rene de nebesky and wojkowitz


Malcolm wrote:
right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 1:40 PM
Title: Re: Looking for info on Tibetan demonology
Content:
Dharmaswede said:
I am looking for good sources on information on Tibetan demonology. (I here use the term "demon" in the widest sense; including the four demons of Dharma, the four Demons of chö, rudras etc. etc.)

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Jens


Malcolm wrote:
the book "Gods and Demons of Tibet".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
TMingyur said:
In contrast to this what is called "attachment" does have a correlate in direct experience. Consequently its absence has a correlate too. Therefore "non-attachment" applies, whereas "nonduality" or "emptiness (of what??)" do not apply but are mere fabrications.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
It is the same, now attached, now detached; now full, now empty; now exists, now does not exist; these are all dualities.

When the basis for attachment has ceased, also the basis for detachment has ceased: detachment is also trapped in dualism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience

TMingyur said:
No because you cannot directly experience duality in the first place.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Of course you can -- now it is exists, now it does not. That is the experience of duality being discussed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 3rd, 2011 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
TMingyur said:
Which however has a correlate in direct experience. And I assert that there is no such correlate as to "emptiness" or "non duality".


Malcolm wrote:
So you have never experienced an empty bank account? An empty larder? Because certainly in this instant there is a correlate  with direct experience. The old "village is empty of a city, city is empty of a village" trope from the suttas i.e. the Cullasunnata sutta, major and minor.

Phenomena are by necessary of free of duality, since they originate in dependence. That absence of duality also has a correlate in direct experience -- see Kaccaayanagotto Sutta i.e. "Everything exists,' this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata teaches a doctrine of the middle".

The middle way view is by necessity a non-dual view, avoiding these extremes of dualism. That is also emptiness; emptiness cures the views of existence and non-existence -- that can be correlated in one's personal experience.

Apatheia, on the other hand, vairāga, non-attachment, is not a particularly unique Buddhist principle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:
TMingyur said:
Considering that "The Dharma" displays itself in "dharmas" the "Dharma permeates everything", you are "absolutely" right ... "absolutely" to be understood in a relative sense.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
I hope to you don't walk around repetitively punctuating your comments in meatspace like this:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: FB Interfaith group on capitalism?
Content:
Caz said:
We live in samsara...expect life to be crap, Getting what you dont want is standard here. Did Buddha ever attempt to implement a political system for others benifit ?
Or is it that there is no real benifit to be gained from politics if we seek happiness and better standards of living I think its far better to start cherishing others and developing Bodhisattva like qualities.


Malcolm wrote:
Well you have to remember that Buddha, according to Digha Nikāya, was the first human king of this eon in a past life...so yes, actually.

The problem is this -- Capitalism is a system where one cherishes oneself and develops mara-qualities. Bodhisattvas really ought not support such a system even if there is little they can do about it.

But if they have the chance, then they should try and act like Ashoka (after he figured out he was a mass murderer) Srongtsan Gampo, Trisrong De'utsan, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Nirvana, for stream enterers and so on, is an object of their consciousnesses since it is included in the dharmāyatana/dhātu.

gregkavarnos said:
Does that mean that Nirvana is/can be an object of "ordinary" consciousness or can it only be perceived at the level of alayavijnana/arya consciousness?  Sorry if the question seems clumsy but I can't really think of any other way to state what I am thinking.


Malcolm wrote:
It is only on object of an arya's mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Aemilius said:
Here is a short essay of Suniti K.Pathak, whose opinion is that has tantra existed from the earliest period of buddhism onward http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/bot/bot_1989_02_03.pdf


Malcolm wrote:
There is one important point in this you are missing. The earliest known text in India we know of that is referred to as a "tantra" is the Agniveśa tantra -- which is the core of the important ayurvedic treatise, the Caraka Samhita. The composition of the CS is hard to date, but likely was compiled between roughly 200 BCE -- 200 CE. Before there were distinct Buddhist texts called tantras, was another ayurvedic treatise called the Aṣtaṅgahridayasamhita penned by a Buddhist physician named Vagbhata in roughly the fifth century CE -- this text refers to itself as a tantra in the colophon.

Pathak's thesis is not that tantra existed in Buddhism from the beginning. His thesis is that elements existed in Buddhism from the beginning which are consistent with later developments called Vajrayāna. I don't disagree with this thesis. I think it is correct.

However, Vajrayāna is a mature path. Reciting a mantra to remove snake venom is not a path.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
By Namdrol: "...nondual, but it is not a nonduality"

clarity! Here is the key of the misunderstanding of the misunderstanding.  and shows poor limits of language once more. ism, ity..."a"
Thank you.

With respect without language limits, to teachings and what is meant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauF1rAHJfU " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
DKR's talk can be summarized as follows:

He for whom emptiness is possible,
for him everything is possible.
He for whom emptiness is not possible,
for him nothing is possible.
-- Nagarjuna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
TMingyur said:
"Non duality" ... "emptiness" ... mere thoughts, ideas ...

I'd suggest "non-attachment" ...


Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Also a thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
heart said:
Namdrol,

I don't think I am presenting any modern conventional Nyingma view, I am not a scholar at all, I just state what I see. The Vima Nyingthik is not free from the nine yanas according to what I have heard. To consider it free of the nine yanas you would have to weed out some parts, accept and reject to make it fit your view. So this subject about a "pure" Dzogchen free from the nine yanas feels very idealistic to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you just go with what you understand, I will go with what I understand. Our understandings clearly differ. I am not going to abuse the teachings of dzogchen to "prove" my point by barraging you with citations that you will inevitably try to parse in a fashion according to however you see things.

So, this is the thing --there are some people who consider that there are two streams: one, outside the nine yānas; one, part of the nine yānas. Then there is another party -- they assert the whole of Dzogchen teachings belongs to the nine yānas.

I belong to the former group, you the latter. I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 8:36 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Sherab said:
Does the quotation contradict my proposed answer?  If yes, please elaborate.

Malcolm wrote:
The inherent meaning of dependent origination is emptiness. Whatever is empty dependently arises; whatever dependently arises is empty, according to Nagarjuna.

In other words, there is nothing not empty that arises at all, and all that arises is empty because it dependently arises. There is no emptiness apart from dependent origination, and no dependent origination apart from emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Ordination
Content:
conebeckham said:
Titles, such as "Gen," "Gen-la,"

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, as a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, the proper mode of address for me is Gen or Gegen. Gegen Namdrol, hmmmm, could get used to that....Or Gen Malcolm....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
Luke said:
His main point is that the Buddhist concept of emptiness is really the interdependence of all things.  Do you agree with this?
.

Sherab said:
Getting back to the OP .... here's my proposed answer:

Emptiness is the label representing the inexpressible, the nature of the uncategorized ultimate.
Emptiness is also the label representing the expressible nature of the categorized ultimate, i.e. the no-nature of all phenomena.
Dependent origination is the label representing the expressible, the nature of the relative.

Therefore the inherent meaning of emptiness is not the inherent meaning of dependent origination.

The nonduality (or inseparability) of emptiness and dependent origination is the meaning of the ultimate.

Comments?

Malcolm wrote:
"Whatever arises in dependence does not in truth arise."

PP sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:



Anders Honore said:
In lieu of same we should say (as as done of course) that emptiness is empty but it is not an empti ness.


Namdrol said:
On the contrary, emptiness is śūnya tā.

Anders Honore said:
sure, but in terms of meaning surely you are not saying there is an actual state of emptiness as the ultimate reality anymore than you would say there is a nondual state of ultimate reality?

Malcolm wrote:
The nice thing about śūnyatā is that you can stated that it is ultimate reality without committing oneself to an ontological position. Hence the tā suffix.

Three gates of liberation are a little different: śūnya, alakṣana, apranidhana, empty, without characteristics, without aspiration.

They are not states, they are entries. Emptiness is the bhutatā, the actual nature of the things. Also emptiness has no nature, since it is free from extremes.

This is the beauty of Madhyamaka. You can assert emptiness as a nature, and no one can fault you. If you assert non-duality as a nature you have already committed an epistemological blunder.

As Nagarjuna really said:

If I had a position, I would be at fault.
Since I alone have no position, I alone am free from fault.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 7:29 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:



Anders Honore said:
In lieu of same we should say (as as done of course) that emptiness is empty but it is not an empti ness.


Malcolm wrote:
On the contrary, emptiness is śūnya tā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:


Anders Honore said:
It can hardly be said there is a philosophy of signlessness or wishlessness either. And arguably it is a great mistake to construct a philosophy from emptiness as well.

Malcolm wrote:
One can argue from the point of view of emptiness. One cannot argue from the point of view of non-duality and remain a Buddhist.


Anders Honore said:
And as regards Madhyamika, Nagarjuna (in the mahaprajnaparamitaupadesha) wrote of it:

Dharmas are included in non-duality (advayapatita), but although they are without duality, they are not, however, single. Seeing all dharmas in this way, without developing them in one’s mind or in one’s firmly held views, is what is called dharmakṣānti.

Malcolm wrote:
I doubt this text is by Nāgājruna.

Advaya-patita means "not broken into two parts", better to say, "...all phenomena are not divided into two, though they are not divided into two, they are not, however single".




Anders Honore said:
Finally, the Pou-eul-jou fa-men (Advayapraveśadharmaparyāya) or the ‘Teaching on the entry into nonduality’ [the chapter in the vimalakirti nirdesha] is the doorway to the true nature of dharmas (dharmāṇāṃ bhūtalakṣaṇa). Variety (nānātva) is duality (dvaya), and duality is wrong view (mithyādṛṣṭi). But the Buddha is not a deceiver (amāyāvin) and cannot commit a deception (māyā). He always applies the Teaching on the entry into non-duality, and deception is variety. That is why he has no notion of variety.

Malcolm wrote:
Better translation of the title would be the dharma discourse on entering the absence of dualism.

But the absence of dualism here is the dualism of "exists" and "does not exist".

Also the absence of the tā particle in Buddhist renderings of the term advaya is significant, even though usually over looked. "Tā" bears the meaning it "ity" in English, for example, reality. Non-duality means literally, "a state of being in which there is no dualism".

Emptiness is nondual, but it is not a nondual ity.


Anders Honore said:
I agree. I do think you may be a bit too eager to flush the baby out with the bathwater in the way you go about asserting this however.

Malcolm wrote:
The amount of trouble this simple word causes is incalculable -- the mistranslation of advaya as non-duality is responsible for huge misunderstandings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Namdrol said:
The purpose of emptiness is to cure views. Emptiness is not a view. "Non-duality" is a view. That is why Vimalakirti kept his trap shut.

Anders Honore said:
The purpose of 'nonduality' is, of course, the very same. And equally so 'emptiness' can also amount to a view. As views, they both point to the same, an ineffable reality. The only difference really is that 'nonduality' says something more about how the mind tends to fabricate views, in patterns of opposite polarities. Like the three doors of liberation, 'nonduality' and 'emptiness' are just different aspects of the same fundamental approach - which is freedom from all views and extremes.


Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is one of three doors of liberation; non-duality is not. The other two being lack of aspiration and the signless.

There is no philosophy of non-dualism in Buddhism. This is wholly the invention of western scholars. For example, Madhyamaka rarely uses the term "non-dual".

When it is used in Yogacara, it is meant to describe lack of a real subject and object in perception (vijñaptimatra), and hence the absence of existence and non-existence in those imagined phenomena as well.

It does not get used at all in the Nikaya schools.

I think westerners are over-invested in this word.

But a word that is frequently brought up, over and over again, is anutpāda, non-origination, non-arising. This word is much more important for we Buddhists.

ཨ


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:
shel said:
You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?

Namdrol said:
Yes, because it is entirely focused on externalities.

shel said:
"Externalities" is a little vague. If you know that the point of religious Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering then you must know what the point of religious Buddhism is, so what is the point of religious Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
Higher rebirth, primarily. Also success in business, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Anders Honore said:
Though I agree that nonduality is, to generalise, often overrated and overused, I won't go as far as saying that it is travel.

shel said:
Me either. For one thing, there has to be a here and a there in order to travel, which is like totally dualistic, dude.

Anders Honore said:
'Trivial'. damn you autocorrect.


Malcolm wrote:
"Non-duality" is trivial in general because is just an intellectual trip.

The nature of things is "non-dual", simply meaning free from existence and non-existence. Great, now one knows this. Then what? How are you going to use this fact? How do you integrate this into your practice? Better not do so conceptually, since that will just result in taking rebirth as a formless realm god.

The purpose of emptiness is to cure views. Emptiness is not a view. "Non-duality" is a view. That is why Vimalakirti kept his trap shut.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
You are Malcolm Smith, ah well!

I see. Than you got Chod from Chogyal Namkhay Norbu La?


Malcolm wrote:
I have received many teachings from ChNN, that, among others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Anders Honore said:
Though I agree that nonduality is, to generalise, often overrated and overused, I won't go as far as saying that it is travel.

Baizhang Huaihai opined that it was a most efficient gateway for clarifying the way, of course the Vimalakirti Nirdesha devotes a fair few words to the topic. But I see it more as a useful tool in regards to ironing out hidden conceptualisations than as ontological schematic. For the latter it usage is quickly exhausted.


Malcolm wrote:
And in the end, after everybody has spouted off, Mañjuśrī asks Vimalakirti what the gate to non-duality is, and he replies by saying nothing whatsoever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
Mariusz said:
It is not something new or revolutionary, only pure Buddhism beyond all extremes, agreement with Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Is it?

Malcolm wrote:
I can't really discuss this any further. It would not be appropriate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
heart said:
I know we had this discussion before and that you probably is thinking that I am clinging to the lower yanas, but I also know you been a bit ambivalent about this in the past.

Malcolm wrote:
No -- I think you are just presenting a very modern and conventional Nyingma view. Which is fine, but you need to recognize how much influence this modern, conventional Nyingma view has been defensively shaped by polemics against the trends like Aro lugs sems sde, early Nyingthig and so on that developed in an environment free of such polemical constraints. The most important polemicist in this respect would be Sapan. I understand his point of view very well, but I think he is biased.

I have been ambivalent about this, not because I don't accept the idea, but because people who declare these things usually don't why they are saying it, just repeating things they have heard, like parrots.


heart said:
Anyway, feel free to suggest cycles that is completely free from the nine yanas.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the first that comes to mind would be the Vima Nyinthig.


heart said:
Like I said many times ChNN is not an example of this since he teach many things from the nine yanas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he does. However, don't believe for a second that you can peg ChNN in this way just because he teaches a lot of secondary practices.

heart said:
Looking for such a teacher you just end up with Jax (a person from esangha that now gives direct introductions and teach an approach free from the nine yanas).

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily, some people wind up with ChNN.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Other Buddhas
Content:


Astus said:
I don't know if there is actually any Buddhist canon that is closed. Just in the 20th century new, revised versions of both East Asian and Theravada canons were published. In fact, in East Asia there is no ultimate canon only groups of texts published at different times.


Malcolm wrote:
In the case of the Pali canon, did they add new texts?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:


shel said:
No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.

Namdrol said:
I misread your statement.

My point however is a little different. There is a kind of Buddhism that is religious and so on. But it misses the point of the dharma's essence.

shel said:
You suggesting that the point of 'religious' Buddhism is not the cessation of suffering?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because it is entirely focused on externalities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:


shel said:
No, I wouldn't. I see people failing to meet the practice of their religion all the time. It's quite noticeable.

Malcolm wrote:
I misread your statement.

My point however is a little different. There is a kind of Buddhism that is religious and so on. But it misses the point of the dharma's essence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:
TMingyur said:
I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards

shel said:
Again basically logos/praxis.

I guess my critique is that this difference is not the least bit difficult to see.

Malcolm wrote:
You might be surprised.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:
TMingyur said:
I guess "Buddhism-as-a-religion" stands for wholesome fabrications, wholesome thoughts and believes, conceptuality, views and dialectics.

For "Buddhism-as-Dharma" I would apply the ambiguity of the term "dharma" meaning "the teaching" and meaning "phenomenon". Combining both entails sort of " the teachings displaying itself through phenomena" and refers to a direct approach not based on conceptuality, non-discursive.


Kind regards

Malcolm wrote:
However you would like to parse to yourself as long as it is not some intellectual theory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:


shel said:
You're basically saying that the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma is that the latter is practiced and the former is not?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no, because there are many religious practices one can do, blindly, like making donations to a monastery because some Lama told you to accumulate merit. What I am saying is that Buddhism-as-Dharma is integrated into your personal experience. It means you know why are doing what you are doing when you are doing it. No blind faith.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism-as-a-religion vs Buddhism-as-Dharma
Content:
shel said:
In another topic Namdrol wrote that:

Namdrol said:
That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.

shel said:
What does that mean?


Malcolm wrote:
The former is a morass of intellectual opinions, views and beliefs. The latter is something that one has integrated into one's personal experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Excuse my ignorance!

So you are saying that the "ultimate Dhamma" mentioned in the Dhammapada quote is, in the dhatu categorisation scheme, the dharmadhatu?  It seems to make sense but the commentary to the Sutta quoted by TM states: Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10).
Thus Nibbana IS beyond the "All" and incapable of expression or perception at the relative level.

This seems to be contradictory, because isn't the dharmadhatu the source of all phenomena:  Relative and Ultimate?

So either we are steeped in (or ultimately are) dharmadhatu and thus, being inseperable from it, we can perceive the Ultimate which also arises from dharmadhatu (when the veil of ignorance is lifted) or phenomena are seperate to the dharmadhatu and thus have no contact with the ultimate.  But, then again, I guess if I take the Middle Path approach then this contradiction will be erased.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that may be how Theravadins approach that sutta -- but some tendencies in Theravada are slightly eternalist. We also have that Sutra in the Agamas, and the way the twelve āyatanas are described by Vasubandhu and the way I have outlined this is completely normal and consistent with that sutra. Nirvana, for stream enterers and so on, is an object of their consciousnesses since it is included in the dharmāyatana/dhātu.

There are no phenomena that lie outside the twelve āyatanas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
Look to the teachers of the real Namdrol. What a joke!


Malcolm wrote:
Huh?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: emptiness = interdependence?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
AND this ultimate reality or the "ultimate Dhamma" does not (seem to) fall within the range of the "All"mentioned in the quotation that TM likes to flap around in peoples faces (continuously).


Malcolm wrote:
No, actually it does. The Sabbasutta is just a description of the twelve āyatanas. The twelve āyatanas contain all conditioned and unconditioned phenomena, including the supreme Dharma, nirvana.

The twelve āyatanas:
eye | form
ear | sound
nose | scent
tongue | tastes
body | tactiles
mind | dharmas

That is it. There are no phenomena taught in any buddhist teachings that can go beyond this list. The dharma āyatana contains the aggregates of sensation, ideation and formations (vedanasamjñā̄saṃskaraskandha), as well as space and the two kinds of cessation. When the twelve āyatanas are broken out in to the eighteen dhātus, the dharma āyatana changes its name to the dharmadhātu. Mano āyatana, the mind ayatanā is the aggregate of consciousness, vijñāna skandha, and the ten material āyatanas, eye, form, etc, are the rūpaskandha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: The Problem With Buddhists
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
It is organised so that everyday common people cannot gain a depth of knowledge, knowledge that may even liberate them (and take the $$$'s somewhere else).  You can see the same scam with the Greek Orthodox church here in Greece, the Catholic church in Italy and (dare I say it and draw the ire of all) the Buddhist "church" that existed in Tibet.


Malcolm wrote:
That would be the difference between Buddhism-as-a-religion and Buddhism-as-Dharma. It is sometime very difficult to differentiate that. So, we are heavily pressured to believe that we are not swans, and are not capable of separating the milk of Dharma from the water of religion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
conebeckham said:
He's talking about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Namdrol....I think.
The first post has a Youtube vid--I think it's DKR....but Youtube is blocked here where I presently am.....


Malcolm wrote:
I see. Well, its true, some people need teachings from DKR.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Other Buddhas
Content:
plwk said:
Very thoughtful discussions thus far but I guess on top of what the OP has laid out, out there in the competitive world, it's not a matter of whether there are Buddhas mentioned or not but rather perhaps more confined to whose list of Buddhas are more 'authentic' and then we find that it turns into another sectarian mud slinging session of whose list is the IT.... and that's where I think what huseng had posted would be a good counter to such nonsense...


Namdrol said:
The Nyingmapa tradition never closed their canon. Granted, there are still issues of "authenticity", but nevertheless, we find, for examples, in the teachings of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu transmissions recovered from other world systems via his impressive skills in the dreamtime.

Huseng said:
I personally know one bhiksuni who says she has received direct teachings from Bodhisattvas before. She doesn't advertise this or generally tell people about it, but being a friend and fellow Buddhist she revealed to me some exquisite poetry written in Classical Chinese verse which she claimed was transmitted to her through Bodhisattvas. It all contained references to Buddhist concepts and having a background in Classical Chinese I found it impressive.

So this is not necessarily an issue of canons, but at times a matter of experience. Those who have visions of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas need not be convinced of their existence. They already have direct teachings and take them as seriously as they would any canonical text. It is not really uncommon for high-calibre practitioners to have such visions. You might have difficulty meeting them and hearing about their experiences though.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes of course. None of the above is meant to question the sincerity of Mahāyāna sūtras, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: How to practice?
Content:
TMingyur said:
I never heard about "Mindfullness meditation" using these things but if you derive benefit from mantras then why not use them?

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
It is a kind of Buddhānusmṛti.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Other Buddhas
Content:
Huseng said:
It also mentions that even if one is incorrect, then one has much to gain from practising Buddha remembrance in this fashion. On the other hand, if one is correct that other Buddhas do indeed exist then there are undesirable consequences for having outright denied the existence of them.

Namdrol said:
Guess we have to rename Pascal's wager.

Huseng said:
It would pre-date Pascal by many centuries indeed.

The reasoning actually would spark some concern in most Buddhist practitioners as one does not want to outright deny the existence of Buddhas. One has nothing to lose by affirming their existence and much to lose by denying it.


Malcolm wrote:
At best, no one wants to be a frog in a well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Other Buddhas
Content:
plwk said:
Very thoughtful discussions thus far but I guess on top of what the OP has laid out, out there in the competitive world, it's not a matter of whether there are Buddhas mentioned or not but rather perhaps more confined to whose list of Buddhas are more 'authentic' and then we find that it turns into another sectarian mud slinging session of whose list is the IT.... and that's where I think what huseng had posted would be a good counter to such nonsense...


Malcolm wrote:
The Nyingmapa tradition never closed their canon. Granted, there are still issues of "authenticity", but nevertheless, we find, for examples, in the teachings of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu transmissions recovered from other world systems via his impressive skills in the dreamtime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Other Buddhas
Content:
Huseng said:
It also mentions that even if one is incorrect, then one has much to gain from practising Buddha remembrance in this fashion. On the other hand, if one is correct that other Buddhas do indeed exist then there are undesirable consequences for having outright denied the existence of them.

Malcolm wrote:
Guess we have to rename Pascal's wager.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Ego cosmic energy
Content:
Rael said:
I'm hedging ram peswani is the only guy gonna gets laid from this thread....


don't Buddha's have these huge penises...is that not one of the attributes of the Buddha...?

maybe there is something to penis envy after all....

and i thought Buddha did give females equality and he got in trouble for that...or was that Gakki propaganda?...


Malcolm wrote:
No, Buddha's male member withdrew into a sheath within his body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
The afflictions will automatically be undone when there is this very understanding. Such need for Rinpoche his teachings.


Malcolm wrote:
Which Rinpoche are you referring to?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:



muni said:
...since they divide these (Space and Awareness) into two, they fall into deviation.
If these two do not become one without any duality, you will certainly not attain Buddhahood". Padmasambhava.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, correct and those who do not understand what the meaning of dhātu and vidyā (dbying/rig) are, will not understand what Guru Rinpoche is actually talking about.

But this statement does not have anything to do with emptiness free from extremes since that is not what dbying, dhātu, is referring to here.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 2nd, 2011 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Without Buddhism?
Content:
heart said:
I don't know Namdrol. I am practicing a cycle belong to the "utterly secret unsurpassed cycle" it for sure has a yidam practice. You take refuge and so on, just in a different way. There might be a few text that don't mention these practices of the lower yanas like the Yeshe Lama, but when Jigme Lingpa explain how he applied these teachings in retreat all the lower yanas comes up. I like Norbu Rinpoche but I am not exactly convinced by your arguments.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
There is yang gsang bla med, and then there is yang gsang bla med.

These are not arguments, magnus. These are just statements of facts.

These are things stated in many places in many Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas, kama and terma.

I have no need to convince you. This is what I have discovered to be true. And I have verified this in the teachings of Garab Dorje personally, in a number of cycles of dzogchen teachings. This is not something I am repeating merely on the basis of ChNN's words, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
Never met a tibetan teacher talking like you, acting like you.


Namdrol said:
I am not Tibetan.

muni said:
I see. Dual American Buddhism. You are contradicting the Tibetan Masters, Vietnamese and so on.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not contradicting anyone. Emptiness is a cure for views, not a view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
On top the responsability of the importance for this teaching.


Malcolm wrote:
You might consider this -- I have spent 25 years reading Madhyamaka, learning Madhyamaka, debating Madhyamaka. Yes, I can even teach Madhyamaka.

However, even Madhyamaka as a teaching has limitations.

Furthermore, emptiness is an antidote. Why be interested in a medicine you do not need?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
Never met a tibetan teacher talking like you, acting like you.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: FB Interfaith group on capitalism?
Content:
kirtu said:
I'm considering starting a FB interfaith group on capitalism and how to reform it from an American perspective.  Marxism formed a useful critique of capitalism and it's exploitations (although I far prefer Dickens) but the resulting solutions usually brought misery to the world.  The sole successful counter to capitalism, social democracy, cannot be adopted in it's European form in the US.

Capitalism has become the central ideology in the US.  However the pursuit of profit without recourse to it's moral and social effects is an actual evil.  Socialists and labor activists in the US in the 20's-40's did form an effective criticism of capitalism and did have some influence on introducing humanizing reforms to the US labor environment.  However socialism as a political force was eliminated and labor itself became corrupted.  More recently some religious groups have been present during anti-globalization and esp. anti-war protests but as these have become dominated by starkly materialist organizations like ANSWER most of these religious groups have not made their voices heard on an ongoing basis.

This interfaith group will address these issues and attempt to reform capitalism so that it can become a force for good in society rather than mindless profit.

What should such a group be called?  What should it's guiding principles be, etc?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Capitalism cannot be reformed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.


Namdrol said:
Think what you like.

muni said:
Listen to the youtube. Then what is for you more important, the welfare of others or rightness? This itself is anexample. Rinpoche says: there is no Buddhism without.

Just look to Tibetan Buddhism, look to Zen, Mahayana, it is included in all these. How can there be the practice of Transcendent Perfections?
A Tibetan doctor has this in his guidance as well to can act purely altruistic what is part of the medicine.

Malcolm wrote:
That emptiness is non-dual (i.e. free from extremes) is a fact. But it is not, for me, at any rate, a very important fact since it is just a bunch of words. Yes, of course as  Tibetan doctor, our view is Madhyamaka. My view is Madhyamaka. Not because I am attached to the middle way as a religion, but because this is just how things are.

Therefore, I think "emptiness as non-duality" is pretty trivial. Like a rock, a stone. It is just there -- nothing worth getting excited about. Well, you could get excited about a rock or a stone, but not because it is empty. You get excited about it because it is useful for something. could help some sick person, could be tied to the end of rope and used as a anchor, etc. But its emptiness is not that exciting or that interesting. Neither is the emptiness of all phenomena in general. Now, the wisdom that intuits the emptiness of persons and phenomena and burns away afflictions, that is a little more exciting. But on its own, non-dual emptiness is trivial and totally uninteresting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
muni said:
"Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so".

In no understanding.


Malcolm wrote:
Think what you like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Jikan said:
Hold on.  What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"?  Buddhahood or Buddha-nature?  Emptiness?  "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)?  cessation?  Rigpa?  anatta?  Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c).  So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically.  It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not.  I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.

muni said:
Emptiness is nondual. I write here Longchenpas' words which are of course only offering a light on it. "Appaerances, experiences" may arise in mind but they are neither mind nor anything but mind".

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: How can we help dead animals in the bardo?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Cool. Yes, this is in fact the meditation taught by Tulku Thondup that I was referred to the book for.



- Tom


Namdrol said:
You can do Shitro.

tomamundsen said:
Thank you, Namdrol. Could you suggest any sources for this practice?

Thanks,
Tom

Malcolm wrote:
You can try to receive the transmission for the short Shitro of Norbu Rinpoche. Then you can get the text. Learn the melodies, etc. It is very easy to do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Non duality.
Content:
Jikan said:
Hold on.  What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"?  Buddhahood or Buddha-nature?  Emptiness?  "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)?  cessation?  Rigpa?  anatta?  Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c).  So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically.  It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not.  I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.


Malcolm wrote:
I am pointing out that there exists a little known criticism of non-dual equipoise i.e. one in which there is no perception of subject and object, in Dzogchen teachings, which, it is asserted can cause one to slip into nirodha-sampatti, and thence, into a annihilationist view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Ordination
Content:
Will said:
Buddha's principle, if I recall aright, was to make a new rule only after a problem appears that cannot be solved under existing rules.  In this case, let us wait until an "ordained" one requests his own forum.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, that is exactly what happened at e-sangha -- problems arose, we tried to deal with it with a policy. Eventually, it collapsed.


