<p><span face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b>For English version, see <a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html">Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives</a></b></span></span></p><ul style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; list-style-type: none; padding: 0px;"></ul><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-testid="conversation-turn-3" dir="auto"><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="306629dd-16cd-4ea2-be8d-a2b46c2fd9d0" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p><strong>從不同角度看“證悟與體驗以及不二體驗”<br />PasserBy<br />（由 PasserBy 2009年撰寫）</strong></p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives<br />PasserBy<br />(Written by PasserBy)”</strong></p><hr /><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p>AEN，你在這個博客中發布了一些非常有意思且高質量的文章。我很喜歡閱讀它們，以及你在 TheTaoBums 和你自己論壇上寫的帖子。其實，在過去兩個月你所發布的這些近期文章中，我最喜歡 Rob Burbea 的那篇演講，但不知為何，當時我并沒有立刻產生想要評論的沖動，直到看到 Rupert 的這篇文章才有了這樣的想法。我不知道為什么會這樣，但我會允許這種寫作的沖動自然表達出來。 :)</p><p>當我在閱讀這些文章時，有幾個想法浮現在我的腦海里，所以我會簡單列出來，并在寫的過程中擴展開來。</p><ol><li>關于“體驗”和“證悟”</li><li>關于“放下”</li><li>關于“無明、割裂與解脫”</li><li>關于“不二體驗、證悟與無我”</li></ol><p>原文：</p><p>“AEN, you have posted some very interesting and good quality articles in this blog. I enjoy reading them as well as those posts that you have written in TheTaoBums and your forum. Actually of all those recent articles you posted in the past 2 months, I like the talk given by Rob Burbea best but somehow I do not have the ‘on the spot urge’ to comment until this article by Rupert came. I do not know why but I will allow this urge to write itself. :)</p><p>While reading through these articles, there are several points that came to my mind, so I will just jot them down and expand them along the way.</p><ol><li>On Experience and Realization</li><li>On Letting Go</li><li>On Ignorance, Disassociation and Liberation</li><li>On Non-Dual Experience, Realization and Anatta”</li></ol><hr /><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p><strong>1. 關于“體驗”和“證悟”</strong></p><p>Soh 的評論：“也可參見相關文章 ——《I AM 的體驗/一瞥/認出 與 I AM 的證悟（對 Being 的確定）》”</p><p>在我讀完 Rob Burbea 和 Rupert 的文章后，我最直接、也是最即時的回應之一是：他們在談論永恒見證者體驗（Eternal Witness Experience）時，遺漏了一個非常且最重要的關鍵點——那就是“證悟”。他們過于專注于體驗，卻忽視了證悟。坦白說，我并不喜歡把它們區分得如此明顯，因為我也將“證悟”視為某種形式的“體驗”。然而，在這里，這種區分似乎能夠更好地闡明我想要表達的內容。這也與幾次你向我描述你關于臨在（Presence）宛若虛空般的體驗，并問它們是否對應于第一階段對永恒見證者的洞見有關。你確實有過這些體驗，但我當時對你說“還不完全是”，盡管你告訴我你清晰地體驗到一種純粹的臨在感。</p><p>那么缺失了什么？你并不缺少“體驗”，你缺乏的是“證悟”。你或許有那種喜悅的感受，或對遼闊、開放、寬廣空間的感覺；你也可能體驗到一種無概念、無對象的狀態；你也可能體驗到鏡子般的明晰，但所有這些體驗都不是“證悟”。這里并沒有“頓悟”、沒有“啊哈時刻”、沒有那種立刻且直覺式的啟示，讓你了悟到某種無可爭辯、無可動搖的真理——那種力量之大，無論是誰，甚至包括佛陀，都無法讓你動搖。因為行者如此清晰地看到了它的真實性——這是對“你”所具足的直接且不可撼動的洞見。唯有通過這樣的證悟，修行者才可能悟得禪宗的“開悟”。到那時，你就會清晰地理解，為什么那些已經觸及“I AMness”之人會如此難以放下這一“我是/本我（I AM）”并接受無我的教義。事實上，這里并不是要拋棄那個“見證者”，而是要在洞見上更進一步，涵蓋不二、無基和我們自性光明性之相互關聯。正如 Rob 所說：“保留體驗，但修正知見。”</p><p>最后需要說明的是，這個“證悟”并不是終點，而是起點。如果我們真誠且不過分夸大這一最初的一瞥，也不被它帶來的體驗沖昏頭腦，就會發現我們并未因此而獲得解脫；相反，在這個證悟之后，我們反而會感受到更多的苦。可它又為修行者提供了一個強大動力，讓我們踏上靈性之旅，去追尋真正的自由。 :)</p><p>（Soh 的評論：John Tan/Thusness 之所以說“我們在‘我是/本我/I AM’之后會更苦”，是因為在“I AM”之后他引發了氣的失衡。然而，對于我來說，在“我是/本我/I AM”證悟之后，大多數時候都處于喜悅且相對無憂的狀態，因為我在修行中沒有走入誤區或錯誤練習，而是遵循了 John 的指導——我在本書的這一章節寫到了這些內容。關于氣的失衡的相關小貼士，可參見《Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind》一書中的“關于氣的失衡的提示”章節。）</p><p>原文：</p><p>“1. On Experience and Realization</p><p>Comments by Soh: "Also see related article - I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)"</p><p>One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.</p><p>So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".</p><p>Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. :)</p><p>(Comments by Soh: the reason John Tan/Thusness said ‘we suffer more after this [I AM] realization’ is due to his energy imbalances triggered after I AM. However, the period after I AM realization was blissful and mostly problem-free for me, as I avoided pitfalls or incorrect practice by practicing according to John’s pointers and guidance, which I have written in this chapter. See chapter on Tips on Energy Imbalances in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind for more details.).”</p><hr /><p>[在下一條消息中繼續]</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-testid="conversation-turn-5" dir="auto"><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="f419f508-9cfd-4825-a1d8-af0c81852b9b" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p><strong>2. 關于“放下”</strong></p><p>在繼續深入討論之前，我必須感謝你花費大量心力將 Rob Burbea 整場演講的內容完整謄錄，并提供了這份文字記錄。這份文字稿非常值得我們一讀再讀。文中有三段談到“放下”（letting go）的內容；對此，我會做一些評論。</p><blockquote><p>“現在，其中一種可能性是通過培養專注力，培養非常銳利的正念——非常集中的覺知，非常明晰的專注，帶著一種顯微鏡般的精細覺察來不斷鍛煉正念。這樣做時，通過這樣的一種‘透鏡’，對我們所顯現出來的現實將被體會為非常快速、迅速變化的現實。所有一切都如同屏幕上的像素在不停變動，又像沙子落在湖面上一樣，生起又消失，生起又消失，都被納入這意識之中。因此對‘意識’的感受就像一種快速生起的片刻——意識的片刻、意識的片刻，它因某個對象而生起。這在南傳上座部（Pali canon）的注釋中很常見，佛陀本人的經典中也有提到一些，但更多是在注釋里。不過，如果有人真的通過持續的正念修行而發展出這種方式，這會很有幫助。通過看到這些無常，發現沒有任何東西可以執取，一切都像指縫間的沙子一樣不斷流逝，連意識也無法被攥緊。于是放下就會隨之發生。我說‘理論上’如此，是因為有時這種修法并不一定真的能帶來放下，但從理論上它的確能帶來放下，而且確實具有那樣的潛能。這就是另一種方法，也有它的果效。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>第三種方式，我們在這幾次的討論中也有所觸及，那就是一種更開放的修行方式——也就是覺知敞開于整個體驗與現象領域之中。這種開敞式的修行會讓人感受到‘覺知’廣袤無邊。尤其當我們談及‘寂靜’的時候，覺知似乎會變得極其廣闊、廣大，廣闊得難以想象。而要得到這種感受，實際上是通過‘放下’而來。也就是說，你在修行中放下得越多，就越可能體驗到覺知開敞的這種美好狀態，極為寬廣的‘覺知’，依靠‘放下’而生起。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>那我們怎么放下呢？我們可以專注于‘放下’本身，也可以專注于‘無常’，進而讓自己放下；或者我們可以專注于‘無我’——也就是“并非我，并非我的”，這是放下的三種傳統方法。那種‘廣闊的覺知’感也可能是在修行中透過‘松弛’專注力自然體驗到的。通常我們會把注意力放在這個對象、那個對象，一個又一個對象上。但是如果‘松弛’這種傾向，對聚焦于對象不再那么上心，而是更關注‘覺知的空間’，而不是那個空間中的“對象”或“事物”，那么就像我們所說的‘安住于覺知’，不再忙著到處為對象‘做事’，而是安住在那愈發開敞的‘覺知的空間’中。無論你睜眼還是閉眼都沒關系，完全無關緊要，可以睜眼修，也可以閉眼修。”</p></blockquote><p>先撇開佛教不談，我想強調一點：我們絕不應該輕視“放下”這門藝術，它遲早會被證明是我們此生最具挑戰的修習之一。“放下”往往需要透過人生起伏的深刻智慧來支撐，即便我們窮盡一生來修習，也可能仍無法窮盡“放下”的深度與廣度。</p><p>就我個人的經驗而言，在對無我與諸法空性的洞見生起之前，“放下”似乎常與“苦”的程度有關。許多時候，我們都需要經歷一段極度痛苦的歷程，才能真正“放下”。似乎唯有如此，才能生起那種“放下”的“意愿”。 :)</p><p>“心并不知道如何解脫自己。<br />當它超越自我設限時，感到某種解開；<br />當它在深度困惑中，便放下了對知解的執取；<br />當它在強烈苦痛中，會自然地松手；<br />當它精疲力竭，就會得以安住。<br />這一切周而復始，循環往復，<br />直到有朝一日，領悟到萬法本自解脫，<br />以自無始以來就如此的自然發生。</p><p>~ Thusness”</p><p>Rob 將對于“無常”和“無我”的觀照與“去認同化”（dis-identification）及“割裂”（disassociation）聯系在一起。我不認同他的這一說法；對此，我會在下一節給出我的看法和評論。</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“2. On Letting Go</strong></p><p>Before proceeding further, I must thank you for the great effort of typing out the entire talk by Rob Burbea and making this transcript available. It is definitely worth reading again and again. There are 3 paragraphs about letting go in the transcript; I will add some comments to these paragraphs.</p><blockquote><p>"Now, one possibility is through developing the attentiveness, developing the mindfulness in a very sharp way, very focused awareness, very bright attentiveness, microscopic kind of fine awareness and really refining the mindfulness like that. And what happens is that the reality that’s revealed to us through that lens is of a very fastly, rapidly changing reality. Everything like pixels on the screen changing, like sand falling on the surface of a lake, just change, change, change, arising and passing, arising and passing, included in that consciousness. So the sense of consciousness is of rapidly arising moments, moment of consciousness, moment of consciousness, arises in relationship to something. And you find this very commonly in the commentaries to the Pali canon, it’s also a little bit in the Buddha said, but mostly in the commentaries. But again, can be very useful if one can develop that way just from the consistency of mindfulness. In that what it brings, seeing all these impermanence, there’s nothing to hold on to. Everything is just slipping through the fingers, like sand through the fingers, including consciousness, can’t be clung to. And so letting go happens with that. I say theoretically, because actually sometimes that mode of working doesn’t actually bring a letting go, but theoretically it brings a letting go and it certainly has that potential. So that’s another possibility again, with its fruits.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>A third one we’ve touched more on in the course of the talks here, and it’s more practicing in the kind of more open out sense – and so awareness kind of opens out into the whole field of experience and phenomena. And this opening out of the practice lends itself to having a sense of awareness as something very spacious. Especially when we talk about silence a little bit. Awareness begins to seem incredibly spacious, vast, unimaginably vast. Now this can be arrived at actually through letting go. So the more we let go in practice, the likelihood of the sense of awareness opening up in this very beautiful way. Very vast awareness, dependent on letting go.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>And how do we let go? We could either just focus on letting go, we could focus on the impermanence and then we let go, or we could focus on the Anatta – not me, not mine. That’s the three classic ways of letting go. That sense of vast awareness might also be discovered or arrived at just by kind of practicing in a kind of way that relaxes the attention. So usually we attend to this object and that object, and another object, and another object. But actually relaxing that propensity, and being more interested in the space that opens up, rather than the objects or things in the space. And we say you can rest then in Awareness, instead of going out and doing things with objects, one just rests in that space of Awareness that begins to opens up. This is something one can do with the eyes open, or with the eyes close, actually completely irrelevant. Practice it with the eyes open, practice it with the eyes closed."</p></blockquote><p>Buddhism aside, I would like to emphasize that we should never underestimate the art of ‘letting go’, it will soon prove to be our most challenging endeavor in life. To ‘let go’ often requires the deep wisdom from undergoing the ups and downs of life and even with a life-long practice, we may still not be able to understand the breadth and depth of 'letting go'.</p><p>My experience is that before the arising insight of anatta and emptiness nature of all phenomena, ‘letting go’ is somehow related to the degree of suffering. Very often, many of us need to go through a process of intense suffering before which we can really ‘let go’. It seems to be a pre-requisite condition in order to give rise to that ‘willingness’ of ‘letting go’. :)</p><p>"The mind does not know how to liberate itself.<br />By going beyond its own limits it experiences unwinding.<br />From deep confusion it drops knowing.<br />From intense suffering comes releasing.<br />From complete exhaustion comes resting.<br />All these go in cycle perpetually repeating,<br />Till one realizes everything is indeed already liberated,<br />As spontaneous happening from before beginning.</p><p>~ Thusness"</p><p>Rob links the practice of seeing impermanence and anatta in transient phenomena to dis-identification and disassociation. I disagree; I will give my views and comments in the next section.”</p><hr /><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p><strong>3. 關于“無明、割裂與解脫”</strong></p><p>你最近發的多數文章都與“不二體驗”以及“寬廣、開放的覺知”相關。我的建議是，不要過度偏向對“不二”層面的體驗，而忽視“無明”。對“無明”要有直接的洞見也同樣重要。對不二行者來說，“臨在”無所不在，但這對于“無明”也是同樣適用的。它潛藏于我們所有的體驗當中，包括深度的入定狀態、或不二、無概念、無對象的狀態。所以要深刻地感受“無明”驚人的蒙蔽力——它有多潛藏、多深入，以及它如何形塑并扭曲我們的體驗實相。在我看來，還沒有哪種魔法比我們與生俱來的二元對立觀念更具催眠性。</p><p>如果我們在“無明”的強大蒙蔽作用尚未破除的時候，就專注于觀照萬法無常，那么這種觀修往往會向“離欲”（dispassion）和“去認同化”（dis-identification）乃至“割裂”（disassociation）的方向傾斜。其實，哪怕是這樣理解，也還算可以，但很多人并不會止步于那種離欲、去認同化，安住于無基之中。他們往往還會“幻化”出一個永恒不變的狀態依托其上。“無我、非我所有”（not me, not mine）這個說法，就好像預設了某個“我的”或“我所”。我個人更希望修行者把“無我”理解為“絕對沒有任何事物可被稱之為我的或我所”；即使如此，這個“絕對沒有任何事物可被稱之為我的或我所”的見解，也不應被曲解為對“無我”見地的真實體驗之洞見。（詳見《On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection》<a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/p/blog-page_25.html">論無我，空性，摩訶與平凡，和自然圓滿</a>）我之所以更加側重這一部分，是因為在佛法中，沒有什么比生起對無我與緣起的洞見更為重要，因為是智慧（尤其是般若智慧）才能讓我們真正解脫（畢竟苦之因在于無明）。千萬不要輕視它。 :)</p><p>然而，從另一面說，因為心性一直被無明（即二元對立和實有化的傾向）主宰，這樣的發展看起來也似乎不可避免。更令人訝異的是，心甚至能“塑造”出這樣一個“恒常狀態”來將它視為依托之所、涅槃之境。這才是最危險的陷阱，因為正如 Rob 所說，那狀態如此美妙，與心目中“實有、二分”的模式幾乎天衣無縫地契合。一旦行者進入那種狀態，是很難“放手”的。</p><p>可一旦真能生起“無我”的洞見，再回頭觀照諸法無常時，便會發現解脫并不需要“恒常狀態”或任何“小我/大我”。我們只須破除無明，就能讓無常“自行解脫”。原來我們所“拋棄”的，才是我們最終真正的目標；而之所以無法找到解脫，原來是因為我們正在逃離解脫；同理，我們之所以受苦，正是因為我們在“積極地”追逐苦。這也正是我在你論壇那兩段話的意思：</p><blockquote><p>“……似乎需要花費大量功夫——但事實并非如此。整個修行，其實最終是一種‘松解’的過程（undoing process）。這是一個逐漸理解我們本具解脫之性如何運作的過程，只是這本來自由，卻被一個‘自我’的感受所遮蔽，這個‘自我’始終想要維護、保護，并且執著不放。整個‘自我’之感都是一種‘造作’。不管我們在做什么，哪怕是好事或壞事，依然是一種‘造作’。最終來說，連‘放下’或者‘順其自然’都無從談起，因為萬象都在不斷地生起與消散，而這一不停的生滅恰恰就是自行解脫。沒有了這個‘小我’或‘大我’，就不再有任何‘造作’，只有自然而然地生起。<br />~ Thusness（來源：Non-dual and karmic patterns）</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>“……當你無法看清我們自性的真相時，任何‘放下’都不過是另一種形式的執著。所以如果沒有這種‘洞見’，就無從談‘松手’……這是一個逐漸加深見地的過程，當見地生起時，‘放下’也就自然而然。你不可能強迫自己放下這個‘自我’……對我來說，真正的‘凈化’，一直都是對這些見地的不斷覺察……不二以及萬法空性……<br />~ Thusness”</p></blockquote><p>所以，一旦從“割裂”（disassociation）入手，我們就自動落入了二元對立的模式，這也是我不同意 Rob 的緣故。如果真正洞見了“無我”，那就不再有中心、根基或行事者；只有依緣而生的現象。而且行者更應當從這種鮮活的生滅流動之中，立刻生起另一個重要洞見：這依緣而起、晶瑩閃動的萬法，本自清凈并自行解脫。</p><p>最后，我并沒有想要暗示：在洞見“三法印”或“諸法實相”的具體次第上，有某種固定先后順序；這一切都取決于因緣與修行者自身的能力。但如果可以選擇，我還是會建議先深入透視“無我”的真正含義。只要我們的無我見地漸趨成熟，我們就會對無常、苦、涅槃有一種全然不同的理解。 :)</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“3. On Ignorance, Disassociation and Liberation</strong></p><p>Most of the articles you posted recently are about non-dual experience and vast open spaciousness of awareness. My advice is not to over-skew yourself into just the non-dual aspect of experience and neglect 'ignorance', having direct insight of ignorance is as important. For non-dualists, Presence pervades everywhere but this is equally true for Ignorance. It pervades in all aspects of our experiences and that includes deep absorptive state or non-dual, non-conceptual, objectless state. So deeply feel the amazing blinding power of ‘ignorance’, how latently deep, how it shapes and distorts experiential reality. I cannot find any magical spell more hypnotic than our inherent and dualistic view.</p><p>If we were to practice observing impermanence of phenomena while the ‘blinding spell’ is still strong, the purpose of the practice appears to swerve towards dispassion, dis-identification and disassociation. In fact it is quite fine even if it is understood that way but many can’t stop at dispassion and dis-identification and rest in perfect contentment in groundlessness. Somehow they will ‘conjure’ out a permanent unchanging state to rest upon. ‘Not self, not mine’ sounds as if there is something ‘Mine or Self’. I would prefer practitioners to treat ‘anatta’ as ‘there is absolutely nothing that can be said to be mine or self’; even then this realization that ‘there is absolutely nothing that can be said to be mine or self’ should not be misunderstood as the experiential insight of anatta (see On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection). I have placed stronger emphasis on this aspect as in Buddhism, nothing is more important than to arise the insight of anatta and dependent origination because it is wisdom (prajna wisdom in particular) that liberates (since the cause of suffering is ignorance). Do not take it too lightly. :)</p><p>Nevertheless this progression seems quite inevitable because the mind is ruled by ignorance (dualistic and inherent tendency). More amazingly, the mind can fabricate such a state and think that it is the resting place, nirvana. This is the danger of all dangers because like what Rob said, it is so beautiful and fits so nicely into the ideal model of an inherent and dualistic mind. When a practitioner gets into it, it is difficult to let go.</p><p>However if insight of anatta arises and we revisit the practice of observing phenomena, we will realize that liberation does not require ‘such permanent state or self/Self’. We just have to dissolve ignorance and impermanence turns self liberating. So what we discard turns out to be our ultimate goal and the reason why we can’t find liberation becomes obvious -- because we are running away from liberation; likewise, the reason why we suffer is because we are actively seeking suffering. This is exactly what I meant by the following 2 paragraphs in your forum:</p><p>""...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. ""</p><p>~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)</p><p>""...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."</p><p>~ Thusness"</p><p>Hence disassociation immediately puts us into a position of dualism and that is why I disagree with Rob. If insight of anatta arises, there is no center, no base, no agent; there is only phenomena dependently originating and practitioners must from this very experience of vivid arising and dissolving instantly arise another important insight -- that this vivid shimmering that dependently originates is naturally pure and self-liberating.</p><p>Lastly, I am not suggesting that there is a definite order of precedence for realizing the profound meaning of the dharma seals; it all depends on the conditions and capacity of each practitioner. But given the choice, start from penetrating the true meaning of anatta first, we will have very different understanding of impermanence, suffering and nirvana once we mature our insight of anatta. :)”</p><hr /><p>[在下一條消息中繼續]</p></div></div></div></div><div class="mb-2 flex gap-3 empty:hidden -ml-2"><div class="items-center justify-start rounded-xl p-1 z-10 -mt-1 bg-token-main-surface-primary screen-arch:mt-1 md:absolute md:sr-only"><div class="flex items-center"><span data-state="closed"><button aria-label="Read aloud" class="rounded-lg text-token-text-secondary hover:bg-token-main-surface-secondary" data-testid="voice-play-turn-action-button"><span class="flex h-[30px] w-[30px] items-center justify-center"><svg class="icon-md-heavy" fill="none" height="24" viewbox="0 0 24 24" width="24" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path clip-rule="evenodd" d="M11 4.9099C11 4.47485 10.4828 4.24734 10.1621 4.54132L6.67572 7.7372C6.49129 7.90626 6.25019 8.00005 6 8.00005H4C3.44772 8.00005 3 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9.5858L14.4142 6.00001L14.7071 5.70712C15.6973 4.71693 17.3027 4.71693 18.2929 5.70712C19.2831 6.69731 19.2831 8.30272 18.2929 9.29291L18 9.5858Z" fill-rule="evenodd" fill="currentColor"></path></svg></button></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="true" data-testid="conversation-turn-7" dir="auto"><h5 class="sr-only"></h5><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><span class="block first:mt-0 relative h-8 text-token-text-secondary hover:text-token-text-primary my-1.5"><div class="group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1"><button><div class="flex items-center justify-start gap-1">Thought for 20 seconds</div></button></div></span><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="3788623a-4c42-45b9-995e-33715f87b1f2" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>簡體中文翻譯：</p><p><strong>4. 關于“不二體驗、證悟與無我”</strong></p><p>我剛剛隨意瀏覽了你論壇上的一些討論，非常有啟發性，也闡述得很好，并且很好地呈現了我所說的<a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/p/chinese-translation-of.html">“七階段洞見”（7-phases-of-insights）</a>。但是，我想提醒你：不要過度強調它，把它當作一個“模型”；也不要將之視為衡量他人體驗和見地的固定框架。把它僅僅當作你自己靈性之旅的一份參考即可。</p><p>你很正確地將“不二體驗”與“不二證悟”、以及“不二證悟”與“無我洞見”區分開來。我們已經反復討論過很多次了。“不二體驗”（non-dual experience）在我們所用的語境中，指的是“無主客之分”的體驗。它的感覺就像把兩團蠟燭火焰靠近，火焰的邊界已無法分辨。這并不是“證悟”，而是一種“境界”——一種觀者與所觀對象合而為一、邊界消融的體驗，此時區隔主客的概念層被暫時擱置，這往往發生在修定中。你已經有過這種體驗。</p><p>而“不二證悟”（non-dual realization）則是一種更深層的理解，來自“洞見”到主客之分的虛幻本質。那是一種自然的、不二的狀態，因“洞見”而生，在經過深入的探究、挑戰和長時間的修習之后，自然而然地凝結。那種修習的重點往往放在“無我”這一命題上。當你專注于“無我”，往往會激發出對每一剎那稍縱即逝之現象的某種“神圣感”：那份“神圣感”曾經似乎只屬于“絕對”，卻如今也在“相對”中得以彰顯。看似晦澀、無邏輯的“無我”一詞，其實就像禪宗的“公案”一樣，一旦真正洞見，就會發現它既顯而易見又直截了當。那種洞見會伴隨著一種體驗：所有一切仿佛融入了：</p><ol><li>一個終極主體，或</li><li>僅僅是“現象流”本身。</li></ol><p>不管是哪種情形，都是在宣告“二元對立”的終結；在體驗層面上，不再有任何“二相性”。剛開始時，那種“合一感”或許還會讓人覺得極其強烈、幾乎壓倒一切，但慢慢地，就會淡去，回歸平常。然而，不管是通過“萬法皆為大我（All as Self）”的方式，還是“萬象只是純粹的顯現”而融入一體，這都是“無我”的初步洞見。前者通常被稱作“一心”（One-Mind），后者則被稱作“無心”（No-Mind）。</p><p>在第一種情形當中，修行者通常還會用一種極其微妙、幾近無意識的方式繼續“人格化”、“實化”，并且將其“形而上化”。盡管已經出現了“不二”的洞見，但對世界的理解在更深層面上仍然沿用基于“主客對立”的模式。由于這種傾向很難在主觀上被察覺，行者在實踐“無我”的過程中，也可能依舊是以“大我”為起點，不斷地發展自己的見地。</p><p>至于第二種情形中修行的行者，他們往往能夠更容易地欣賞“無我”的教義。當真正的“無我洞見”生起，所有體驗都會自然呈現“不二”。但這“洞見”不僅是看穿了主客之分，它更徹底終結了對任何實體化的執著，讓人瞬時認識到：“施為者/主體（agent）”在實際體驗中原本就不存在，只是被臆構出來的。有了這層見地后，就會體驗到現實從來都是如此——從來沒有什么“中心”、“根基”或“本源”可言，以前的一切，僅僅是我們以為那里有個“主體”或“源頭”。</p><p>要讓這個洞見真正成熟，僅僅在感官層面經歷“無行動者”還不足夠；在“見地（view）”上也必須來一次徹底的“范式轉換”。我們必須將自己從那種“以中心或根源為視角”的思維定式中解放出來，不再以“源頭、本體、位置、主體或控制者”去理解、分析每一個當下的體驗，而是完完全全地“安住”于“無我”和“緣起”的見地之上。</p><p>因此，這一階段的洞見并不是要華麗地唱頌某種終極實相的不二性；恰恰相反，這種“終極實相”如今反而被視為“無關”的東西。“終極實相”只對那些仍然堅持以“實有論”去理解世界的心念才會顯得重要，當那種傾向被徹底化解，“源頭”的概念就會被視作不合邏輯、甚至謬誤。要想真正領受“無我”的深廣內涵，修行者必須愿意拋棄整套“主客對立”的思維框架，并且開放地接受“沒有任何‘源頭’”這一事實。Rob 在他那篇演講里十分巧妙地表達了這一點：</p><blockquote><p>“有一次佛陀對一群比丘開示，大意是不要把覺知視為‘萬物的源頭’。也就是說，那種感覺‘有一個廣袤的覺知，而一切萬物都從那兒生起、又回歸到那兒去’的說法，雖然聽起來很美，但并不是一種能夠幫助我們真正究竟解脫的見地。那部經很有意思，它是少數幾部經文中，結尾并沒有說‘比丘們聞法歡喜，信受奉行’的經文之一。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>其實那群比丘并不想聽佛陀所說的，他們對自己的那種‘無量覺知’的見解覺得很滿足，覺得那種狀態已經夠美好了。經典里說，比丘們對佛陀的話‘并不歡喜’。（笑聲）作為一位老師，我必須說，我也常遇到類似的情況。這種層次的體驗里存在太多‘終極’的味道，以至于很多人死守在那里，不愿再作進一步地探究。”</p></blockquote><p>那么，佛教所謂的“不依賴一個‘源頭’的見地”究竟是什么？我想，你論壇里那篇《What makes Buddhism different》之中，Vajrahridaya 的帖子，把它簡要而透徹地表達了。如果有需要，可以再去看看。不過，要記得始終回到此時此地、此刻的鮮活顯現——這一念心，這一縷香——“色即是空”，如此而已。 :)</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“4. On Non-Dual Experience, Realization and Anatta</strong></p><p>I have just casually gone through some of your forum discussions. Very enlightening discussions and well presentation of my 7-phases-of-insights but try not to over-emphasize it as a model; it should not be taken as a definite model of enlightenment nor should you use it as a framework to validate others' experiences and insights. Simply take it as a guide along your spiritual journey.</p><p>You are right to differentiate non-dual experience from non-dual realization and non-dual realization from the insight of anatta. We have discussed this umpteem times. Non-dual experience in the context we are using refers to the experience of no-subject-object division. The experience is much like putting two candle flames together where the boundary between the flames becomes indistinguishable. It is not a realization but simply a stage, an experience of unity between the observer and the observed where the conceptual layer that divides is temporarily suspended in a meditative state. This you have experienced.</p><p>Non-dual realization on the other hand is a deep understanding that comes from seeing through the illusionary nature of subject-object division. It is a natural non-dual state that resulted from an insight that arises after rigorous investigation, challenge and a prolonged period of practice that is specially focused on ‘No-Self’. Somehow focusing on “No-Self” will spark a sense of sacredness towards the transient and fleeting phenomena. The sense of sacredness that is once the monopoly of the Absolute is now also found in the Relative. The term ‘No-Self’ like Zen-Koan may appear cryptic, senseless or illogical but when realized, it is actually obviously clear, direct and simple. The realization is accompanied with the experience that everything is being dissolved into either:</p><ol><li>An ultimate Subject or</li><li>As mere ‘flow of phenomenality’</li></ol><p>In whatever the case, both spells the end of separateness; experientially there is no sense of two-ness and the experience of unity can be quite overwhelming initially but eventually it will lose its grandeur and things turn quite ordinary. Nevertheless, regardless of whether the sense of Oneness is derived from the experience of ‘All as Self’ or ‘as simply just manifestation’, it is the beginning insight of “No-Self”. The former is known as One-Mind and the later, No-Mind.</p><p>In Case 1 it is usual that practitioners will continue to personify, reify and extrapolate a metaphysical essence in a very subtle way, almost unknowingly. This is because despite the non-dual realization, understanding is still orientated from a view that is based on subject-object dichotomy. As such it is hard to detect this tendency and practitioners continue their journey of building their understanding of ‘No-Self based on Self’.</p><p>For Case 2 practitioners, they are in a better position to appreciate the doctrine of anatta. When insight of Anatta arises, all experiences become implicitly non-dual. But the insight is not simply about seeing through separateness; it is about the thorough ending of reification so that there is an instant recognition that the ‘agent’ is extra, in actual experience it does not exist. It is an immediate realization that experiential reality has always been so and the existence of a center, a base, a ground, a source has always been assumed.</p><p>To mature this realization, even direct experience of the absence of an agent will prove insufficient; there must also be a total new paradigm shift in terms of view; we must free ourselves from being bonded to the idea, the need, the urge and the tendency of analyzing, seeing and understanding our moment to moment of experiential reality from a source, an essence, a center, a location, an agent or a controller and rest entirely on anatta and Dependent Origination.</p><p>Therefore this phase of insight is not about singing eloquently the non-dual nature of an Ultimate Reality; contrary it is deeming this Ultimate Reality as irrelevant. Ultimate Reality appears relevant only to a mind that is bond to seeing things inherently, once this tendency dissolves, the idea of a source will be seen as flawed and erroneous. Therefore to fully experience the breadth and depth of no-self, practitioners must be prepared and willing to give up the entire subject-object framework and be open to eliminate the entire idea of a ‘source’. Rob expressed very skillfully this point in his talk:</p><p>"One time the Buddha went to a group of monks and he basically told them not to see Awareness as The Source of all things. So this sense of there being a vast awareness and everything just appears out of that and disappears back into it, beautiful as that is, he told them that’s actually not a skillful way of viewing reality. And that is a very interesting sutta, because it’s one of the only suttas where at the end it doesn’t say the monks rejoiced in his words.</p><p>This group of monks didn’t want to hear that. They were quite happy with that level of insight, lovely as it was, and it said the monks did not rejoice in the Buddha’s words. (laughter) And similarly, one runs into this as a teacher, I have to say. This level is so attractive, it has so much of the flavor of something ultimate, that often times people are unbudgeable there."</p><p>What then is the view that Buddhism is talking about without resorting to a ‘source’? I think the post by Vajrahridaya in the thread ‘What makes Buddhism different’ of your forum succinctly and concisely expressed the view, it is well written. That said, do remember to infinitely regress back into this vivid present moment of manifestation – as this arising thought, as this passing scent – Emptiness is Form. :)</p><p>Labels: Anatta, I AMness, John Tan, Non-dual, Stages of Enlightenment | ”</p><hr /><p>腳注/附注（若有）：</p><p>（無）</p><hr /><p>簡短說明：</p><ol><li><p><strong>關鍵概念</strong>：此文強調了“體驗”與“證悟”之間的區別，尤其是在談到“我是/本我（I AM）”或“不二體驗”時，需要看到“洞見”的重要性。“無我”（anatta）乃佛法修行中不可或缺的洞見，對此文作者而言，“見到無我”不僅意味著體驗到主體-客體對立的消失，更意味著終結對實體性的執著。</p></li><li><p><strong>上下文</strong>：原文作者 PasserBy 引述了自己及他人的見解，也提到了 Rob Burbea、Rupert 以及其他人在討論永恒見證者體驗、無常與無我的不同角度。整篇文章圍繞如何深入理解并實踐“放下”、“不二性”以及“無我”，以期走向真正的解脫。</p></li><li><p><strong>譯法選擇</strong>：</p><ul><li>“I AM”統一譯為“我是/本我”以符合讀者對該術語的熟悉。</li><li>其他佛教術語，如“本初清凈”、“本自圓成”等不在本文原文之列，此處未做更多解釋。</li></ul></li></ol><hr /><p><strong>參考書目/致謝（如有需要）</strong>：</p><ul><li>《中部經》與南傳上座部傳統注釋</li><li>Rob Burbea 相關演講文字記錄</li><li>PasserBy 與 Soh 等人在網絡論壇的討論記錄</li></ul><p>至此，原文所有段落均已完整呈現并翻譯完畢。</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li>