<p><span face="Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b>For English version, see <a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html">Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives</a></b></span></span></p><ul style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; list-style-type: none; padding: 0px;"></ul><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-testid="conversation-turn-3" dir="auto"><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="306629dd-16cd-4ea2-be8d-a2b46c2fd9d0" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p><strong>从不同角度看“证悟与体验以及不二体验”<br />PasserBy<br />（由 PasserBy 2009年撰写）</strong></p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives<br />PasserBy<br />(Written by PasserBy)”</strong></p><hr /><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p>AEN，你在这个博客中发布了一些非常有意思且高质量的文章。我很喜欢阅读它们，以及你在 TheTaoBums 和你自己论坛上写的帖子。其实，在过去两个月你所发布的这些近期文章中，我最喜欢 Rob Burbea 的那篇演讲，但不知为何，当时我并没有立刻产生想要评论的冲动，直到看到 Rupert 的这篇文章才有了这样的想法。我不知道为什么会这样，但我会允许这种写作的冲动自然表达出来。 :)</p><p>当我在阅读这些文章时，有几个想法浮现在我的脑海里，所以我会简单列出来，并在写的过程中扩展开来。</p><ol><li>关于“体验”和“证悟”</li><li>关于“放下”</li><li>关于“无明、割裂与解脱”</li><li>关于“不二体验、证悟与无我”</li></ol><p>原文：</p><p>“AEN, you have posted some very interesting and good quality articles in this blog. I enjoy reading them as well as those posts that you have written in TheTaoBums and your forum. Actually of all those recent articles you posted in the past 2 months, I like the talk given by Rob Burbea best but somehow I do not have the ‘on the spot urge’ to comment until this article by Rupert came. I do not know why but I will allow this urge to write itself. :)</p><p>While reading through these articles, there are several points that came to my mind, so I will just jot them down and expand them along the way.</p><ol><li>On Experience and Realization</li><li>On Letting Go</li><li>On Ignorance, Disassociation and Liberation</li><li>On Non-Dual Experience, Realization and Anatta”</li></ol><hr /><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p><strong>1. 关于“体验”和“证悟”</strong></p><p>Soh 的评论：“也可参见相关文章 ——《I AM 的体验/一瞥/认出 与 I AM 的证悟（对 Being 的确定）》”</p><p>在我读完 Rob Burbea 和 Rupert 的文章后，我最直接、也是最即时的回应之一是：他们在谈论永恒见证者体验（Eternal Witness Experience）时，遗漏了一个非常且最重要的关键点——那就是“证悟”。他们过于专注于体验，却忽视了证悟。坦白说，我并不喜欢把它们区分得如此明显，因为我也将“证悟”视为某种形式的“体验”。然而，在这里，这种区分似乎能够更好地阐明我想要表达的内容。这也与几次你向我描述你关于临在（Presence）宛若虚空般的体验，并问它们是否对应于第一阶段对永恒见证者的洞见有关。你确实有过这些体验，但我当时对你说“还不完全是”，尽管你告诉我你清晰地体验到一种纯粹的临在感。</p><p>那么缺失了什么？你并不缺少“体验”，你缺乏的是“证悟”。你或许有那种喜悦的感受，或对辽阔、开放、宽广空间的感觉；你也可能体验到一种无概念、无对象的状态；你也可能体验到镜子般的明晰，但所有这些体验都不是“证悟”。这里并没有“顿悟”、没有“啊哈时刻”、没有那种立刻且直觉式的启示，让你了悟到某种无可争辩、无可动摇的真理——那种力量之大，无论是谁，甚至包括佛陀，都无法让你动摇。因为行者如此清晰地看到了它的真实性——这是对“你”所具足的直接且不可撼动的洞见。唯有通过这样的证悟，修行者才可能悟得禅宗的“开悟”。到那时，你就会清晰地理解，为什么那些已经触及“I AMness”之人会如此难以放下这一“我是/本我（I AM）”并接受无我的教义。事实上，这里并不是要抛弃那个“见证者”，而是要在洞见上更进一步，涵盖不二、无基和我们自性光明性之相互关联。正如 Rob 所说：“保留体验，但修正知见。”</p><p>最后需要说明的是，这个“证悟”并不是终点，而是起点。如果我们真诚且不过分夸大这一最初的一瞥，也不被它带来的体验冲昏头脑，就会发现我们并未因此而获得解脱；相反，在这个证悟之后，我们反而会感受到更多的苦。可它又为修行者提供了一个强大动力，让我们踏上灵性之旅，去追寻真正的自由。 :)</p><p>（Soh 的评论：John Tan/Thusness 之所以说“我们在‘我是/本我/I AM’之后会更苦”，是因为在“I AM”之后他引发了气的失衡。然而，对于我来说，在“我是/本我/I AM”证悟之后，大多数时候都处于喜悦且相对无忧的状态，因为我在修行中没有走入误区或错误练习，而是遵循了 John 的指导——我在本书的这一章节写到了这些内容。关于气的失衡的相关小贴士，可参见《Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind》一书中的“关于气的失衡的提示”章节。）</p><p>原文：</p><p>“1. On Experience and Realization</p><p>Comments by Soh: "Also see related article - I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being)"</p><p>One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.</p><p>So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".</p><p>Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. :)</p><p>(Comments by Soh: the reason John Tan/Thusness said ‘we suffer more after this [I AM] realization’ is due to his energy imbalances triggered after I AM. However, the period after I AM realization was blissful and mostly problem-free for me, as I avoided pitfalls or incorrect practice by practicing according to John’s pointers and guidance, which I have written in this chapter. See chapter on Tips on Energy Imbalances in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind for more details.).”</p><hr /><p>[在下一条消息中继续]</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-testid="conversation-turn-5" dir="auto"><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="f419f508-9cfd-4825-a1d8-af0c81852b9b" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p><strong>2. 关于“放下”</strong></p><p>在继续深入讨论之前，我必须感谢你花费大量心力将 Rob Burbea 整场演讲的内容完整誊录，并提供了这份文字记录。这份文字稿非常值得我们一读再读。文中有三段谈到“放下”（letting go）的内容；对此，我会做一些评论。</p><blockquote><p>“现在，其中一种可能性是通过培养专注力，培养非常锐利的正念——非常集中的觉知，非常明晰的专注，带着一种显微镜般的精细觉察来不断锻炼正念。这样做时，通过这样的一种‘透镜’，对我们所显现出来的现实将被体会为非常快速、迅速变化的现实。所有一切都如同屏幕上的像素在不停变动，又像沙子落在湖面上一样，生起又消失，生起又消失，都被纳入这意识之中。因此对‘意识’的感受就像一种快速生起的片刻——意识的片刻、意识的片刻，它因某个对象而生起。这在南传上座部（Pali canon）的注释中很常见，佛陀本人的经典中也有提到一些，但更多是在注释里。不过，如果有人真的通过持续的正念修行而发展出这种方式，这会很有帮助。通过看到这些无常，发现没有任何东西可以执取，一切都像指缝间的沙子一样不断流逝，连意识也无法被攥紧。于是放下就会随之发生。我说‘理论上’如此，是因为有时这种修法并不一定真的能带来放下，但从理论上它的确能带来放下，而且确实具有那样的潜能。这就是另一种方法，也有它的果效。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>第三种方式，我们在这几次的讨论中也有所触及，那就是一种更开放的修行方式——也就是觉知敞开于整个体验与现象领域之中。这种开敞式的修行会让人感受到‘觉知’广袤无边。尤其当我们谈及‘寂静’的时候，觉知似乎会变得极其广阔、广大，广阔得难以想象。而要得到这种感受，实际上是通过‘放下’而来。也就是说，你在修行中放下得越多，就越可能体验到觉知开敞的这种美好状态，极为宽广的‘觉知’，依靠‘放下’而生起。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>那我们怎么放下呢？我们可以专注于‘放下’本身，也可以专注于‘无常’，进而让自己放下；或者我们可以专注于‘无我’——也就是“并非我，并非我的”，这是放下的三种传统方法。那种‘广阔的觉知’感也可能是在修行中透过‘松弛’专注力自然体验到的。通常我们会把注意力放在这个对象、那个对象，一个又一个对象上。但是如果‘松弛’这种倾向，对聚焦于对象不再那么上心，而是更关注‘觉知的空间’，而不是那个空间中的“对象”或“事物”，那么就像我们所说的‘安住于觉知’，不再忙着到处为对象‘做事’，而是安住在那愈发开敞的‘觉知的空间’中。无论你睁眼还是闭眼都没关系，完全无关紧要，可以睁眼修，也可以闭眼修。”</p></blockquote><p>先撇开佛教不谈，我想强调一点：我们绝不应该轻视“放下”这门艺术，它迟早会被证明是我们此生最具挑战的修习之一。“放下”往往需要透过人生起伏的深刻智慧来支撑，即便我们穷尽一生来修习，也可能仍无法穷尽“放下”的深度与广度。</p><p>就我个人的经验而言，在对无我与诸法空性的洞见生起之前，“放下”似乎常与“苦”的程度有关。许多时候，我们都需要经历一段极度痛苦的历程，才能真正“放下”。似乎唯有如此，才能生起那种“放下”的“意愿”。 :)</p><p>“心并不知道如何解脱自己。<br />当它超越自我设限时，感到某种解开；<br />当它在深度困惑中，便放下了对知解的执取；<br />当它在强烈苦痛中，会自然地松手；<br />当它精疲力竭，就会得以安住。<br />这一切周而复始，循环往复，<br />直到有朝一日，领悟到万法本自解脱，<br />以自无始以来就如此的自然发生。</p><p>~ Thusness”</p><p>Rob 将对于“无常”和“无我”的观照与“去认同化”（dis-identification）及“割裂”（disassociation）联系在一起。我不认同他的这一说法；对此，我会在下一节给出我的看法和评论。</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“2. On Letting Go</strong></p><p>Before proceeding further, I must thank you for the great effort of typing out the entire talk by Rob Burbea and making this transcript available. It is definitely worth reading again and again. There are 3 paragraphs about letting go in the transcript; I will add some comments to these paragraphs.</p><blockquote><p>"Now, one possibility is through developing the attentiveness, developing the mindfulness in a very sharp way, very focused awareness, very bright attentiveness, microscopic kind of fine awareness and really refining the mindfulness like that. And what happens is that the reality that’s revealed to us through that lens is of a very fastly, rapidly changing reality. Everything like pixels on the screen changing, like sand falling on the surface of a lake, just change, change, change, arising and passing, arising and passing, included in that consciousness. So the sense of consciousness is of rapidly arising moments, moment of consciousness, moment of consciousness, arises in relationship to something. And you find this very commonly in the commentaries to the Pali canon, it’s also a little bit in the Buddha said, but mostly in the commentaries. But again, can be very useful if one can develop that way just from the consistency of mindfulness. In that what it brings, seeing all these impermanence, there’s nothing to hold on to. Everything is just slipping through the fingers, like sand through the fingers, including consciousness, can’t be clung to. And so letting go happens with that. I say theoretically, because actually sometimes that mode of working doesn’t actually bring a letting go, but theoretically it brings a letting go and it certainly has that potential. So that’s another possibility again, with its fruits.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>A third one we’ve touched more on in the course of the talks here, and it’s more practicing in the kind of more open out sense – and so awareness kind of opens out into the whole field of experience and phenomena. And this opening out of the practice lends itself to having a sense of awareness as something very spacious. Especially when we talk about silence a little bit. Awareness begins to seem incredibly spacious, vast, unimaginably vast. Now this can be arrived at actually through letting go. So the more we let go in practice, the likelihood of the sense of awareness opening up in this very beautiful way. Very vast awareness, dependent on letting go.</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>And how do we let go? We could either just focus on letting go, we could focus on the impermanence and then we let go, or we could focus on the Anatta – not me, not mine. That’s the three classic ways of letting go. That sense of vast awareness might also be discovered or arrived at just by kind of practicing in a kind of way that relaxes the attention. So usually we attend to this object and that object, and another object, and another object. But actually relaxing that propensity, and being more interested in the space that opens up, rather than the objects or things in the space. And we say you can rest then in Awareness, instead of going out and doing things with objects, one just rests in that space of Awareness that begins to opens up. This is something one can do with the eyes open, or with the eyes close, actually completely irrelevant. Practice it with the eyes open, practice it with the eyes closed."</p></blockquote><p>Buddhism aside, I would like to emphasize that we should never underestimate the art of ‘letting go’, it will soon prove to be our most challenging endeavor in life. To ‘let go’ often requires the deep wisdom from undergoing the ups and downs of life and even with a life-long practice, we may still not be able to understand the breadth and depth of 'letting go'.</p><p>My experience is that before the arising insight of anatta and emptiness nature of all phenomena, ‘letting go’ is somehow related to the degree of suffering. Very often, many of us need to go through a process of intense suffering before which we can really ‘let go’. It seems to be a pre-requisite condition in order to give rise to that ‘willingness’ of ‘letting go’. :)</p><p>"The mind does not know how to liberate itself.<br />By going beyond its own limits it experiences unwinding.<br />From deep confusion it drops knowing.<br />From intense suffering comes releasing.<br />From complete exhaustion comes resting.<br />All these go in cycle perpetually repeating,<br />Till one realizes everything is indeed already liberated,<br />As spontaneous happening from before beginning.</p><p>~ Thusness"</p><p>Rob links the practice of seeing impermanence and anatta in transient phenomena to dis-identification and disassociation. I disagree; I will give my views and comments in the next section.”</p><hr /><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p><strong>3. 关于“无明、割裂与解脱”</strong></p><p>你最近发的多数文章都与“不二体验”以及“宽广、开放的觉知”相关。我的建议是，不要过度偏向对“不二”层面的体验，而忽视“无明”。对“无明”要有直接的洞见也同样重要。对不二行者来说，“临在”无所不在，但这对于“无明”也是同样适用的。它潜藏于我们所有的体验当中，包括深度的入定状态、或不二、无概念、无对象的状态。所以要深刻地感受“无明”惊人的蒙蔽力——它有多潜藏、多深入，以及它如何形塑并扭曲我们的体验实相。在我看来，还没有哪种魔法比我们与生俱来的二元对立观念更具催眠性。</p><p>如果我们在“无明”的强大蒙蔽作用尚未破除的时候，就专注于观照万法无常，那么这种观修往往会向“离欲”（dispassion）和“去认同化”（dis-identification）乃至“割裂”（disassociation）的方向倾斜。其实，哪怕是这样理解，也还算可以，但很多人并不会止步于那种离欲、去认同化，安住于无基之中。他们往往还会“幻化”出一个永恒不变的状态依托其上。“无我、非我所有”（not me, not mine）这个说法，就好像预设了某个“我的”或“我所”。我个人更希望修行者把“无我”理解为“绝对没有任何事物可被称之为我的或我所”；即使如此，这个“绝对没有任何事物可被称之为我的或我所”的见解，也不应被曲解为对“无我”见地的真实体验之洞见。（详见《On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection》<a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/p/blog-page_25.html">论无我，空性，摩诃与平凡，和自然圆满</a>）我之所以更加侧重这一部分，是因为在佛法中，没有什么比生起对无我与缘起的洞见更为重要，因为是智慧（尤其是般若智慧）才能让我们真正解脱（毕竟苦之因在于无明）。千万不要轻视它。 :)</p><p>然而，从另一面说，因为心性一直被无明（即二元对立和实有化的倾向）主宰，这样的发展看起来也似乎不可避免。更令人讶异的是，心甚至能“塑造”出这样一个“恒常状态”来将它视为依托之所、涅槃之境。这才是最危险的陷阱，因为正如 Rob 所说，那状态如此美妙，与心目中“实有、二分”的模式几乎天衣无缝地契合。一旦行者进入那种状态，是很难“放手”的。</p><p>可一旦真能生起“无我”的洞见，再回头观照诸法无常时，便会发现解脱并不需要“恒常状态”或任何“小我/大我”。我们只须破除无明，就能让无常“自行解脱”。原来我们所“抛弃”的，才是我们最终真正的目标；而之所以无法找到解脱，原来是因为我们正在逃离解脱；同理，我们之所以受苦，正是因为我们在“积极地”追逐苦。这也正是我在你论坛那两段话的意思：</p><blockquote><p>“……似乎需要花费大量功夫——但事实并非如此。整个修行，其实最终是一种‘松解’的过程（undoing process）。这是一个逐渐理解我们本具解脱之性如何运作的过程，只是这本来自由，却被一个‘自我’的感受所遮蔽，这个‘自我’始终想要维护、保护，并且执着不放。整个‘自我’之感都是一种‘造作’。不管我们在做什么，哪怕是好事或坏事，依然是一种‘造作’。最终来说，连‘放下’或者‘顺其自然’都无从谈起，因为万象都在不断地生起与消散，而这一不停的生灭恰恰就是自行解脱。没有了这个‘小我’或‘大我’，就不再有任何‘造作’，只有自然而然地生起。<br />~ Thusness（来源：Non-dual and karmic patterns）</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>“……当你无法看清我们自性的真相时，任何‘放下’都不过是另一种形式的执着。所以如果没有这种‘洞见’，就无从谈‘松手’……这是一个逐渐加深见地的过程，当见地生起时，‘放下’也就自然而然。你不可能强迫自己放下这个‘自我’……对我来说，真正的‘净化’，一直都是对这些见地的不断觉察……不二以及万法空性……<br />~ Thusness”</p></blockquote><p>所以，一旦从“割裂”（disassociation）入手，我们就自动落入了二元对立的模式，这也是我不同意 Rob 的缘故。如果真正洞见了“无我”，那就不再有中心、根基或行事者；只有依缘而生的现象。而且行者更应当从这种鲜活的生灭流动之中，立刻生起另一个重要洞见：这依缘而起、晶莹闪动的万法，本自清净并自行解脱。</p><p>最后，我并没有想要暗示：在洞见“三法印”或“诸法实相”的具体次第上，有某种固定先后顺序；这一切都取决于因缘与修行者自身的能力。但如果可以选择，我还是会建议先深入透视“无我”的真正含义。只要我们的无我见地渐趋成熟，我们就会对无常、苦、涅槃有一种全然不同的理解。 :)</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“3. On Ignorance, Disassociation and Liberation</strong></p><p>Most of the articles you posted recently are about non-dual experience and vast open spaciousness of awareness. My advice is not to over-skew yourself into just the non-dual aspect of experience and neglect 'ignorance', having direct insight of ignorance is as important. For non-dualists, Presence pervades everywhere but this is equally true for Ignorance. It pervades in all aspects of our experiences and that includes deep absorptive state or non-dual, non-conceptual, objectless state. So deeply feel the amazing blinding power of ‘ignorance’, how latently deep, how it shapes and distorts experiential reality. I cannot find any magical spell more hypnotic than our inherent and dualistic view.</p><p>If we were to practice observing impermanence of phenomena while the ‘blinding spell’ is still strong, the purpose of the practice appears to swerve towards dispassion, dis-identification and disassociation. In fact it is quite fine even if it is understood that way but many can’t stop at dispassion and dis-identification and rest in perfect contentment in groundlessness. Somehow they will ‘conjure’ out a permanent unchanging state to rest upon. ‘Not self, not mine’ sounds as if there is something ‘Mine or Self’. I would prefer practitioners to treat ‘anatta’ as ‘there is absolutely nothing that can be said to be mine or self’; even then this realization that ‘there is absolutely nothing that can be said to be mine or self’ should not be misunderstood as the experiential insight of anatta (see On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection). I have placed stronger emphasis on this aspect as in Buddhism, nothing is more important than to arise the insight of anatta and dependent origination because it is wisdom (prajna wisdom in particular) that liberates (since the cause of suffering is ignorance). Do not take it too lightly. :)</p><p>Nevertheless this progression seems quite inevitable because the mind is ruled by ignorance (dualistic and inherent tendency). More amazingly, the mind can fabricate such a state and think that it is the resting place, nirvana. This is the danger of all dangers because like what Rob said, it is so beautiful and fits so nicely into the ideal model of an inherent and dualistic mind. When a practitioner gets into it, it is difficult to let go.</p><p>However if insight of anatta arises and we revisit the practice of observing phenomena, we will realize that liberation does not require ‘such permanent state or self/Self’. We just have to dissolve ignorance and impermanence turns self liberating. So what we discard turns out to be our ultimate goal and the reason why we can’t find liberation becomes obvious -- because we are running away from liberation; likewise, the reason why we suffer is because we are actively seeking suffering. This is exactly what I meant by the following 2 paragraphs in your forum:</p><p>""...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. ""</p><p>~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)</p><p>""...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."</p><p>~ Thusness"</p><p>Hence disassociation immediately puts us into a position of dualism and that is why I disagree with Rob. If insight of anatta arises, there is no center, no base, no agent; there is only phenomena dependently originating and practitioners must from this very experience of vivid arising and dissolving instantly arise another important insight -- that this vivid shimmering that dependently originates is naturally pure and self-liberating.</p><p>Lastly, I am not suggesting that there is a definite order of precedence for realizing the profound meaning of the dharma seals; it all depends on the conditions and capacity of each practitioner. But given the choice, start from penetrating the true meaning of anatta first, we will have very different understanding of impermanence, suffering and nirvana once we mature our insight of anatta. :)”</p><hr /><p>[在下一条消息中继续]</p></div></div></div></div><div class="mb-2 flex gap-3 empty:hidden -ml-2"><div class="items-center justify-start rounded-xl p-1 z-10 -mt-1 bg-token-main-surface-primary screen-arch:mt-1 md:absolute md:sr-only"><div class="flex items-center"><span data-state="closed"><button aria-label="Read aloud" class="rounded-lg text-token-text-secondary hover:bg-token-main-surface-secondary" data-testid="voice-play-turn-action-button"><span class="flex h-[30px] w-[30px] items-center justify-center"><svg class="icon-md-heavy" fill="none" height="24" viewbox="0 0 24 24" width="24" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><path clip-rule="evenodd" d="M11 4.9099C11 4.47485 10.4828 4.24734 10.1621 4.54132L6.67572 7.7372C6.49129 7.90626 6.25019 8.00005 6 8.00005H4C3.44772 8.00005 3 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9.5858L14.4142 6.00001L14.7071 5.70712C15.6973 4.71693 17.3027 4.71693 18.2929 5.70712C19.2831 6.69731 19.2831 8.30272 18.2929 9.29291L18 9.5858Z" fill-rule="evenodd" fill="currentColor"></path></svg></button></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li><li class="_conversationTurnWrapper_1fdba_226"><article class="w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]" data-scroll-anchor="true" data-testid="conversation-turn-7" dir="auto"><h5 class="sr-only"></h5><div class="group/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn"><div class="flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3"><div class="flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow"><span class="block first:mt-0 relative h-8 text-token-text-secondary hover:text-token-text-primary my-1.5"><div class="group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1"><button><div class="flex items-center justify-start gap-1">Thought for 20 seconds</div></button></div></span><div class="min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5" data-message-author-role="assistant" data-message-id="3788623a-4c42-45b9-995e-33715f87b1f2" data-message-model-slug="o1" dir="auto"><div class="flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]"><div class="markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light"><p>简体中文翻译：</p><p><strong>4. 关于“不二体验、证悟与无我”</strong></p><p>我刚刚随意浏览了你论坛上的一些讨论，非常有启发性，也阐述得很好，并且很好地呈现了我所说的<a href="https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/p/chinese-translation-of.html">“七阶段洞见”（7-phases-of-insights）</a>。但是，我想提醒你：不要过度强调它，把它当作一个“模型”；也不要将之视为衡量他人体验和见地的固定框架。把它仅仅当作你自己灵性之旅的一份参考即可。</p><p>你很正确地将“不二体验”与“不二证悟”、以及“不二证悟”与“无我洞见”区分开来。我们已经反复讨论过很多次了。“不二体验”（non-dual experience）在我们所用的语境中，指的是“无主客之分”的体验。它的感觉就像把两团蜡烛火焰靠近，火焰的边界已无法分辨。这并不是“证悟”，而是一种“境界”——一种观者与所观对象合而为一、边界消融的体验，此时区隔主客的概念层被暂时搁置，这往往发生在修定中。你已经有过这种体验。</p><p>而“不二证悟”（non-dual realization）则是一种更深层的理解，来自“洞见”到主客之分的虚幻本质。那是一种自然的、不二的状态，因“洞见”而生，在经过深入的探究、挑战和长时间的修习之后，自然而然地凝结。那种修习的重点往往放在“无我”这一命题上。当你专注于“无我”，往往会激发出对每一刹那稍纵即逝之现象的某种“神圣感”：那份“神圣感”曾经似乎只属于“绝对”，却如今也在“相对”中得以彰显。看似晦涩、无逻辑的“无我”一词，其实就像禅宗的“公案”一样，一旦真正洞见，就会发现它既显而易见又直截了当。那种洞见会伴随着一种体验：所有一切仿佛融入了：</p><ol><li>一个终极主体，或</li><li>仅仅是“现象流”本身。</li></ol><p>不管是哪种情形，都是在宣告“二元对立”的终结；在体验层面上，不再有任何“二相性”。刚开始时，那种“合一感”或许还会让人觉得极其强烈、几乎压倒一切，但慢慢地，就会淡去，回归平常。然而，不管是通过“万法皆为大我（All as Self）”的方式，还是“万象只是纯粹的显现”而融入一体，这都是“无我”的初步洞见。前者通常被称作“一心”（One-Mind），后者则被称作“无心”（No-Mind）。</p><p>在第一种情形当中，修行者通常还会用一种极其微妙、几近无意识的方式继续“人格化”、“实化”，并且将其“形而上化”。尽管已经出现了“不二”的洞见，但对世界的理解在更深层面上仍然沿用基于“主客对立”的模式。由于这种倾向很难在主观上被察觉，行者在实践“无我”的过程中，也可能依旧是以“大我”为起点，不断地发展自己的见地。</p><p>至于第二种情形中修行的行者，他们往往能够更容易地欣赏“无我”的教义。当真正的“无我洞见”生起，所有体验都会自然呈现“不二”。但这“洞见”不仅是看穿了主客之分，它更彻底终结了对任何实体化的执著，让人瞬时认识到：“施为者/主体（agent）”在实际体验中原本就不存在，只是被臆构出来的。有了这层见地后，就会体验到现实从来都是如此——从来没有什么“中心”、“根基”或“本源”可言，以前的一切，仅仅是我们以为那里有个“主体”或“源头”。</p><p>要让这个洞见真正成熟，仅仅在感官层面经历“无行动者”还不足够；在“见地（view）”上也必须来一次彻底的“范式转换”。我们必须将自己从那种“以中心或根源为视角”的思维定式中解放出来，不再以“源头、本体、位置、主体或控制者”去理解、分析每一个当下的体验，而是完完全全地“安住”于“无我”和“缘起”的见地之上。</p><p>因此，这一阶段的洞见并不是要华丽地唱颂某种终极实相的不二性；恰恰相反，这种“终极实相”如今反而被视为“无关”的东西。“终极实相”只对那些仍然坚持以“实有论”去理解世界的心念才会显得重要，当那种倾向被彻底化解，“源头”的概念就会被视作不合逻辑、甚至谬误。要想真正领受“无我”的深广内涵，修行者必须愿意抛弃整套“主客对立”的思维框架，并且开放地接受“没有任何‘源头’”这一事实。Rob 在他那篇演讲里十分巧妙地表达了这一点：</p><blockquote><p>“有一次佛陀对一群比丘开示，大意是不要把觉知视为‘万物的源头’。也就是说，那种感觉‘有一个广袤的觉知，而一切万物都从那儿生起、又回归到那儿去’的说法，虽然听起来很美，但并不是一种能够帮助我们真正究竟解脱的见地。那部经很有意思，它是少数几部经文中，结尾并没有说‘比丘们闻法欢喜，信受奉行’的经文之一。</p></blockquote><blockquote><p>其实那群比丘并不想听佛陀所说的，他们对自己的那种‘无量觉知’的见解觉得很满足，觉得那种状态已经够美好了。经典里说，比丘们对佛陀的话‘并不欢喜’。（笑声）作为一位老师，我必须说，我也常遇到类似的情况。这种层次的体验里存在太多‘终极’的味道，以至于很多人死守在那里，不愿再作进一步地探究。”</p></blockquote><p>那么，佛教所谓的“不依赖一个‘源头’的见地”究竟是什么？我想，你论坛里那篇《What makes Buddhism different》之中，Vajrahridaya 的帖子，把它简要而透彻地表达了。如果有需要，可以再去看看。不过，要记得始终回到此时此地、此刻的鲜活显现——这一念心，这一缕香——“色即是空”，如此而已。 :)</p><p>原文：</p><p><strong>“4. On Non-Dual Experience, Realization and Anatta</strong></p><p>I have just casually gone through some of your forum discussions. Very enlightening discussions and well presentation of my 7-phases-of-insights but try not to over-emphasize it as a model; it should not be taken as a definite model of enlightenment nor should you use it as a framework to validate others' experiences and insights. Simply take it as a guide along your spiritual journey.</p><p>You are right to differentiate non-dual experience from non-dual realization and non-dual realization from the insight of anatta. We have discussed this umpteem times. Non-dual experience in the context we are using refers to the experience of no-subject-object division. The experience is much like putting two candle flames together where the boundary between the flames becomes indistinguishable. It is not a realization but simply a stage, an experience of unity between the observer and the observed where the conceptual layer that divides is temporarily suspended in a meditative state. This you have experienced.</p><p>Non-dual realization on the other hand is a deep understanding that comes from seeing through the illusionary nature of subject-object division. It is a natural non-dual state that resulted from an insight that arises after rigorous investigation, challenge and a prolonged period of practice that is specially focused on ‘No-Self’. Somehow focusing on “No-Self” will spark a sense of sacredness towards the transient and fleeting phenomena. The sense of sacredness that is once the monopoly of the Absolute is now also found in the Relative. The term ‘No-Self’ like Zen-Koan may appear cryptic, senseless or illogical but when realized, it is actually obviously clear, direct and simple. The realization is accompanied with the experience that everything is being dissolved into either:</p><ol><li>An ultimate Subject or</li><li>As mere ‘flow of phenomenality’</li></ol><p>In whatever the case, both spells the end of separateness; experientially there is no sense of two-ness and the experience of unity can be quite overwhelming initially but eventually it will lose its grandeur and things turn quite ordinary. Nevertheless, regardless of whether the sense of Oneness is derived from the experience of ‘All as Self’ or ‘as simply just manifestation’, it is the beginning insight of “No-Self”. The former is known as One-Mind and the later, No-Mind.</p><p>In Case 1 it is usual that practitioners will continue to personify, reify and extrapolate a metaphysical essence in a very subtle way, almost unknowingly. This is because despite the non-dual realization, understanding is still orientated from a view that is based on subject-object dichotomy. As such it is hard to detect this tendency and practitioners continue their journey of building their understanding of ‘No-Self based on Self’.</p><p>For Case 2 practitioners, they are in a better position to appreciate the doctrine of anatta. When insight of Anatta arises, all experiences become implicitly non-dual. But the insight is not simply about seeing through separateness; it is about the thorough ending of reification so that there is an instant recognition that the ‘agent’ is extra, in actual experience it does not exist. It is an immediate realization that experiential reality has always been so and the existence of a center, a base, a ground, a source has always been assumed.</p><p>To mature this realization, even direct experience of the absence of an agent will prove insufficient; there must also be a total new paradigm shift in terms of view; we must free ourselves from being bonded to the idea, the need, the urge and the tendency of analyzing, seeing and understanding our moment to moment of experiential reality from a source, an essence, a center, a location, an agent or a controller and rest entirely on anatta and Dependent Origination.</p><p>Therefore this phase of insight is not about singing eloquently the non-dual nature of an Ultimate Reality; contrary it is deeming this Ultimate Reality as irrelevant. Ultimate Reality appears relevant only to a mind that is bond to seeing things inherently, once this tendency dissolves, the idea of a source will be seen as flawed and erroneous. Therefore to fully experience the breadth and depth of no-self, practitioners must be prepared and willing to give up the entire subject-object framework and be open to eliminate the entire idea of a ‘source’. Rob expressed very skillfully this point in his talk:</p><p>"One time the Buddha went to a group of monks and he basically told them not to see Awareness as The Source of all things. So this sense of there being a vast awareness and everything just appears out of that and disappears back into it, beautiful as that is, he told them that’s actually not a skillful way of viewing reality. And that is a very interesting sutta, because it’s one of the only suttas where at the end it doesn’t say the monks rejoiced in his words.</p><p>This group of monks didn’t want to hear that. They were quite happy with that level of insight, lovely as it was, and it said the monks did not rejoice in the Buddha’s words. (laughter) And similarly, one runs into this as a teacher, I have to say. This level is so attractive, it has so much of the flavor of something ultimate, that often times people are unbudgeable there."</p><p>What then is the view that Buddhism is talking about without resorting to a ‘source’? I think the post by Vajrahridaya in the thread ‘What makes Buddhism different’ of your forum succinctly and concisely expressed the view, it is well written. That said, do remember to infinitely regress back into this vivid present moment of manifestation – as this arising thought, as this passing scent – Emptiness is Form. :)</p><p>Labels: Anatta, I AMness, John Tan, Non-dual, Stages of Enlightenment | ”</p><hr /><p>脚注/附注（若有）：</p><p>（无）</p><hr /><p>简短说明：</p><ol><li><p><strong>关键概念</strong>：此文强调了“体验”与“证悟”之间的区别，尤其是在谈到“我是/本我（I AM）”或“不二体验”时，需要看到“洞见”的重要性。“无我”（anatta）乃佛法修行中不可或缺的洞见，对此文作者而言，“见到无我”不仅意味着体验到主体-客体对立的消失，更意味着终结对实体性的执著。</p></li><li><p><strong>上下文</strong>：原文作者 PasserBy 引述了自己及他人的见解，也提到了 Rob Burbea、Rupert 以及其他人在讨论永恒见证者体验、无常与无我的不同角度。整篇文章围绕如何深入理解并实践“放下”、“不二性”以及“无我”，以期走向真正的解脱。</p></li><li><p><strong>译法选择</strong>：</p><ul><li>“I AM”统一译为“我是/本我”以符合读者对该术语的熟悉。</li><li>其他佛教术语，如“本初清净”、“本自圆成”等不在本文原文之列，此处未做更多解释。</li></ul></li></ol><hr /><p><strong>参考书目/致谢（如有需要）</strong>：</p><ul><li>《中部经》与南传上座部传统注释</li><li>Rob Burbea 相关演讲文字记录</li><li>PasserBy 与 Soh 等人在网络论坛的讨论记录</li></ul><p>至此，原文所有段落均已完整呈现并翻译完毕。</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></article></li>